How Sensitive is “too” Sensitive? And How Can It Become a Superpower? | Jenn Granneman

Take Our Podcast Listener Survey http://goodlifeproject.com/survey! Feel overwhelmed by the world's intensity? Bestselling author Jenn Granneman (Sensitive: The Hidden Power of the Highly Sensitive Person in a Loud, Fast, Too-Much World https://amzn.to/4l3S4f1) reveals how to transform your sensitivity from a perceived weakness into a profound strength. Discover the five superpowers of highly sensitive people and how to thrive by embracing - not suppressing - your ability to feel the world's richness so vividly. You can find Jenn at: Website https://introvertdear.com/ | Instagram https://www.instagram.com/introvertdear/ | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/hidden-superpowers-of-highly-sensitive-people-jenn-granneman If you LOVED this episode, you’ll also love the conversations we had with Elaine Aron https://episodes.fm/647826736/episode/NjM0Y2FhMDcxMmJlYjQwMDEyNDQ3NTFi about being highly sensitive. Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the Wheel https://jonathanfields.substack.com/aboutVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ADHA Aha! is a podcast hosted by Laura Key that explores pivotal moments when people realized they or their loved ones have ADHD, sharing both touching and humorous stories of ADHD discovery. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. https://lnk.to/adhdahaPS!goodlifeproject Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  It's easy to get stressed. It's easy to get overwhelmed when you're sensitive. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to fix those things that you that you struggle with. Um, but.

• 0:11Jonathan Fields?

  So ever felt misunderstood or overwhelmed by the intensity of the world around you? Today, bestselling author of the book Sensitivity, Jen Granneman, reveals how embracing your sensitivity can transform it from a perceived weakness into your greatest strength.

• 0:26Speaker 00

  Sensitive people feel the stress and the pain and the joy and the beauty of the world, usually in a pretty intense way because they're picking up so much.

• 0:36Jonathan Fields?

  It feels like we live in a world that's not really built for sensitive people and often we'll even tend to judge it.

• 0:42Speaker 00

  It's hard to be a sensitive person in this world. It's hard, right? We see people struggling. We see stress, pain, heartache. When I use the word sensitive, I'm talking about it as a personality trait.

• 0:56Jonathan Fields?

  Does that mean you look at it as something that is changeable or not?

• 0:59Speaker 00

  Oh, great question. Well.

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• 1:40Jonathan Fields?

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• 3:01Jonathan Fields?

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• 3:46Jonathan Fields?

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• 3:53Jonathan Fields?

  As we sit here having this conversation, I'm raising my hand as somebody who has identified as being introverted for my entire adult life. And after a conversation with Elaine Aaron a couple of years back, also started probably identifying as somebody who was highly sensitive, which I didn't really key in on earlier in life. She helped me tease out the distinction between high sensation, which I actually do like, and actually being sensitive. So I've been so curious just about this whole area of exploration because it helps, I think, so many people move through the world and understand themselves better and understand how to feel better and live better. You know, I would love to sort of like dive in by really understanding, you know, like so much of your work is focused around this word of sensitivity. When we use that word in conversation,

• 4:36Jonathan Fields?

  when you use that word, what do you mean?

• 4:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I'll just first say there are a lot of us out there, a lot of us introverts and sensitive people. So when I use the word sensitive, I'm talking about someone who picks up more information from their surroundings and sometimes even from their own body. So we have a lot of different uses for the word sensitive. Sensitive can be an embarrassing topic. Sensitive can be, you know, kind of a feminine sounding word. People sometimes use sensitive to mean you're overreacting, or you need to just get over it and toughen up. When I use the word sensitive, I'm talking about it as a personality trait.

• 5:14Jonathan Fields?

  So if you define it as a trait rather than a state, does that mean you look at it as something that is changeable or not?

• 5:21Speaker 00

  Oh, great question. Well, a lot of the research shows that it's not something that's changeable. Our personalities are pretty much inborn. Our genes influence them, our upbringing influences them. But you know, that can sound kind of scary to people like, oh my gosh, I'm going to be like this for the rest of my life, right? A lot of times we think about the challenges associated with sensitivity, or introversion, or you know, any other personality trait. So we're born with a certain temperament, a certain way we approach the world. But that doesn't mean we can't grow and change. In fact, most of us do. Most of us do grow and change, and usually for the better as we get older.

• 6:02Jonathan Fields?

  So if somebody's listening to this or watching it, and they're kind of thinking to themselves, okay, how do I know if this is me? What are some of the signposts that we might look for to start to figure this out?

• 6:13Speaker 00

  Right. So there's a lot of things we can look for. Let's say that you are a sensitive person. You might be the one who notices that there's just a slightly different shade of blue in a painting. Maybe you're the person who notices subtle cues from someone. There's just a flash of expression on your coworker's face, and then it's gone. You know, those micro expressions, they happen so fast. But a sensitive person notices them. And that isn't to say that people who are less sensitive don't notice colors or don't notice expressions, right? But sensitive people are often the ones who are very tuned into their environment. They're often very tuned into the people around them. They're often very tuned into their own bodies.

• 6:55Speaker 00

  And they notice those things that other people don't notice. If you're a sensitive person, you might also have a lot of empathy. You might have a strong emotional side. You might be really creative. A lot of sensitive people are really creative. And, you know, not necessarily just making a painting or writing poetry or something like that, right? There are so many ways that creativity shows up. Maybe it's thinking of a solution to a problem at work that other people didn't think of. Sensitive people tend to feel the world intensely. I mean, we all go through life feeling things. So I'm not saying that other people don't have emotions or don't have reactions. But sensitive people feel the stress and the pain and the joy and the beauty of the world,

• 7:37Speaker 00

  usually in a pretty intense way because they're picking up so much.

• 7:41Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm. When you start to sense this about yourself and you're moving through the world. I mean, I think one of the things that a lot of folks who would identify in some ways as being very sensitive is this feeling that the world isn't actually built for you.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 7:57Jonathan Fields?

  You know, like the ideal kind of like makes you feel like, not only is like the way that we move through the world, it doesn't seem to accommodate the way that you you function, but also it may even go further than that. And say like, this is actually a problem to be fixed. So take me into this a bit more.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  Right, when I was writing my book, people would ask me, what's your book about? And I'd say, highly sensitive people. And it was just amazing, the different range of comments I got. People would say, oh, good, you're gonna you're gonna show sensitive people how to toughen up and fix themselves. I was like, no, that's not, that's not what I'm saying here, actually. It's hard to be a sensitive person in this world. It's hard, right? We see people struggling. We see stress, pain, heartache.

• 8:43Speaker 00

  We may even feel that way for people we don't even know well, strangers. And, you know, it's not just the news, it's our work environments, it's raising children, it's having friendships and other types of relationships. There's a lot going on every day, right? And everybody feels that stress. Everybody feels that pain sometimes, but sensitive people tend to hit that anxiety and that stress faster.

• 9:11Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm. I mean, as you're describing it, this picture is coming to my mind of, you know, I would imagine that, and I'm curious whether there's data on this that you're aware of, that a lot of folks who wouldn't, who wouldn't identify as being sensitive would also probably, then maybe I'm assuming incorrectly, but, but might be more drawn to sort of like creative pursuits or creative arts or art. And I'm picturing the classic art student who's in class and they're in what, you know, has become known as a crit, where basically everyone has their work up for the day and the teacher, you know, goes around the room, largely just eviscerating them. And I've heard this from a number of friends who've been through like different types of art programs. And the response that they get from the teacher is, I need to toughen you up. Like you need, you're going into a really, really tough world.

• 9:55Jonathan Fields?

  Like if you want to go into the, and do this and like you, you can't be sensitive in that world. And at the same time, I'm like, well, okay, I actually get that from a practical standpoint, because if you want to survive in a really hard, tough, you know, like place to survive, you know, that you do probably need some skills, but at the same time, isn't it that very sensitivity that probably becomes source fuel for your ability to create on a level where people will just be like, wow, I want to participate in that?

• 10:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. And I could remember going through those critiques.

• 10:28Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  I did a writing degree. My writing, you know, whether it was journalistic or creative. Poetry, essays, whatever, it was all up for critique constantly. So, yes, I know that pain well. I think there's a difference between learning how to take feedback and criticism. And feeling like you have to get rid of your sensitivity. Because, you're right, sensitivity, it's an amazing trait. It helps us be creative. When your brain is making more connections and seeing details that other people might miss, of course, it's going to be more creative. And you're right, a lot of artists, writers, other creative types tend to be sensitive people for a reason.

• 11:09Jonathan Fields?

  So where do we go with that? And this is one of the things that you write actually about fairly early in your book, this notion of the toughness myth, that actually the appropriate reaction is to toughen up. Like, that's the way, if you want to quote, succeed in life and relationships and work and business, that you do have to fix this. So tease this out to me, because you just said, okay, so let's make a distinction between being able to take feedback, which is important and valuable, but also knowing that you need to like stand in this part of yourself that is real and true.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's tough, right? I think sensitive people tend to take things personally, right? And of course, we all take things personally to some extent. But sensitive people might really see any kind of feedback or critique as a reflection on them and their character and their worth. And it's not just some art critique, right? It could be something your boss says. It could be something your spouse or your friend says. And sensitive people not only take things personally, but they're often turning those things over in their minds. I mean, the sensitive brain processes things deeply. That's a hallmark characteristic of the sensitive brain. So not only are you thinking, oh, my gosh, this is all about me, right?

• 12:24Speaker 00

  But it's also like, I'm still thinking about it. I'm thinking about it all day. I'm thinking about it as I go to sleep. Maybe I can't sleep because I'm thinking about it. But like you said, I think there's a way to not say, okay, I have to toughen up, right? The toughness myth tells us we have to get rid of our sensitive side. We have to put our emotions aside. We have to push through any pain or discomforts. We have to work harder, go further. But I don't think we have to. Necessarily get rid of our sensitivity just to take a step back and look at what feedback is, right? And learn how to take that feedback a little better, or just deal with anything else, right? I'm broadening it a bit here, but you don't have to put

• 13:07Speaker 00

  your sensitivity aside to be able to succeed and thrive in your work, in your parenting, or whatever else you're doing.

• 13:15Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. I'm curious in your life and your experience, when, as you described, you went through, you know, like a writing program where your work was being criticized on a regular basis, and that's part of the growth process. Like, you want the data from that. That's how we get better, right?

• 13:29Speaker 00

  Right, yes. Was it a good story or a bad story?

• 13:32Jonathan Fields?

  Exactly. Give me the insight. Was it totally off the rails? Like, is there something here to work with? We want that, right?

• 13:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:37Jonathan Fields?

  So, how do you step into that mode where you're like, okay, how can I find more ease? How can I breathe more easily? When I feel like maybe there's important information being conveyed to me, but the person or the container in which it's being conveyed, I'm really struggling with. It's activating me. Like, are there skills or practices you found helpful in doing that dance so you can kind of breathe more easily and get the information you really want to need?

• 14:05Speaker 00

  Right, yeah, because you're right. Sometimes there is useful information that we want to get. I think it helps to try to take a step back, maybe pause the conversation if it's happening in real time, try to put some distance in between what they're saying and you. Sometimes it helps me to do affirmations, you know, to just say things out loud to myself, or even think them in my head if I'm not in a place where I can speak them out loud. You know, things like, "These words are not a reflection of my worth," or "This does not define me." Or maybe you say to yourself, "I'm still a creative person and I'm thriving," whatever it is the situation you're going through. I think it helps to

• 14:49Speaker 00

  sort of recognize when criticism is maybe...

• 14:55Speaker 00

  Personal and unfounded and unfair, right? Because, you know, if somebody just walks up to you and says like, "Oh, you're a dummy." You know? The stranger says this to you, "How seriously are you going to take this? This is a person you don't even know. This is obviously a personal attack designed to hurt your feelings." So I think it helps to look at that criticism as, okay, where's the other person coming from? Are they trying to hurt my feelings? Are they trying to upset me? Because, you know, there are people out there who do those sort of things. But are they trying to, you know, do this from a place of love? Are they trying to help me grow? Are they trying to help me become a better writer?

• 15:39Speaker 00

  Or whatever it is, right? So I think it can help to think about the person's motivation. I think it can help too to think about, how well do they know me? Are they that stranger on the street who just walked up to me and insulted me? Or is this someone who's known me for a really long time and has seen very intimate parts of my life? Or maybe knows my work really well if we're talking about a work situation? And it can be hard to hear those things when your emotions are feeling really activated in the moment. That's why I think it can be really helpful, like you said, take a step back, try to take a breather. Whenever we're having some unhelpful thoughts, like this person really doesn't like me, or I'm terrible, or whatever it is, right? We've got to evaluate those thoughts logically, but first we need to get the emotions to

• 16:23Speaker 00

  settle down and feel better before we can even take those logical steps.

• 16:27Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 16:28Speaker 00

  It's so hard.

• 16:29Jonathan Fields?

  Really hard.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  Right? It's so hard.

• 16:32Jonathan Fields?

  I've been on that side many times throughout my entire life, you know?

• 16:34Speaker 00

  You too.

• 16:35Jonathan Fields?

  I'm really curious about something else that you said also, though, which is, you mentioned that it's not unusual for somebody who is on the sensitive side to also get in their head a lot and to maybe sort of like spin with things once they're in there. Are you aware of any research or data that actually connects sensitivity to different incidences of anxiety, or OCD, or depression, or tendencies towards that?

• 17:02Speaker 00

  You know, there is some research out there that says sensitive people tend to be more prone to anxiety and depression. It's the same with introverts. And, you know, that doesn't surprise me because we are in our heads, right? And we're thinking a lot about what's going on. You know, that might sound like... Bad news, but it doesn't have to be, right? I mean, people who aren't sensitive, people who are extroverts, they deal with anxiety and depression, too. There are ways to deal with these challenges that we face. I mean, personally, I deal with anxiety and depression. I have my whole life and you find ways to cope with them.

• 17:36Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

• 17:42Jonathan Fields?

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• 20:52Jonathan Fields?

  You mentioned also you use the word introvert. And I would imagine a lot of people are would kind of be confused. What's the difference here? Like, is being sensitive the same thing as being introverted? Is it different? Are they two parts of like a similar orientation? Like, talk me through sort of how we tease this out a little bit.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a great question because I often, I write about both topics. So I often throw them together, right? But there are some big differences. So introversion is how you approach the social world, basically. It's how you approach your relationships. Are you someone who likes solitude or are you someone who likes lots of people time, right? Sensitivity is how you approach the physical world around you, the environment around you. Are you picking up lots of cues and lots of information from your world? Or are you kind of, you know, maybe missing some things? The reason I often talk about them together is because a lot of sensitive people are introverts.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  You can be both, right? But you could also be a sensitive extrovert. I know some sensitive extroverts and they are just Warm and gregarious and caring and thoughtful. They love people, right? I mean, I look at their lives and they're always like, I'm talking to so and so. I'm going here. I'm doing this. And I'm like, I can't. I can't keep that up. But then they tend to sort of crash, right? Because there's just so much that they're doing. And even they, as sensitive people, get overwhelmed too. Uh, sensitive introverts might be a little different, right? They're, they're a little just live a quieter life, not going everywhere, not seeing everyone, happy to be at home. Happy to, you know, have a night at home to themselves in their pajamas, watching their show, reading a book, things like that.

• 22:37Speaker 00

  But yeah, I like to say that introverts are people who crave solitude. But a sensitive person doesn't necessarily crave that. They might need it when they feel stressed or overwhelmed. They might need that downtime to process their emotions and sort out their thoughts. But they're not necessarily someone who's like, oh, I just want to be home, like, reading my book tonight. I don't want to go hang out, right? So it's a fine difference. I'm glad you asked.

• 23:04Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, it sounds like one is like they're, they're both. There are levels of sensitivity. One is more focused on sort of like social interaction. And one is more broadly focused on just general input from the world, stimulation from all sources. Um, which is why you could see there's probably a fair amount of overlap there.

• 23:21Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. I mean, you put a sensitive person and an introvert at a party and they might look similar, right? They might look like, oh, my gosh, this is a lot, especially if there's lots of noise, if there are a lot of people. They might both have a similar reaction, uh, but it, it's not necessarily coming from the same thing. The introvert might feel overwhelmed by the actual socializing, right? The, the talk and the listening. Uh, the sensitive person might feel overwhelmed by kind of the more general atmosphere. Oh, my gosh, loud music, strobing lights. Not that I go to any parties with strobing lights anymore, but right? Um, all, all the noise and activity, plus the stuff going on from the people.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  I think sensitive people often feel kind of inundated with cues from around them, people's cues. Like, oh, I can tell that person's mad. Or, oof, I'm not sure how that person, uh, liked my comment, you know? So they tend to be very tuned in to the people around them, almost to the, the point that it can become stressful.

• 24:23Jonathan Fields?

  So as you're describing that, these two scenarios pop into my head. One is me now, where I tend to like much more chill scenarios, less than, but I like to control the stimulation coming at me in any given moment. And then I'm flashing back to me in my early twenties in New York City in a club at two in the morning with thousands of people thronging around, I think all the lights, all the music. I was also a club DJ in college and I loved it. I absolutely got lost in it, like the louder, the better, the more lights, the better, the more stimulation, the more human beings around me, the better. And so I'm wondering what's going on there? Like, is there a way to almost, or like when you have all that going on, that it can, your brain can in some way like temporarily suspend yourself within that and almost create

• 25:08Jonathan Fields?

  like your own private oasis within the context of this massive stimulation?

• 25:13Speaker 00

  Gosh, I love that idea of creating your own private oasis. Well, I'd say maybe there's a few things going on. First, research shows that everybody gets a little more introverted as they get older. They slow down a little more. If you're a sensitive person, you might find yourself becoming a little more sensitive to your environment. It just happens as we get older. But I think there's something else going on there too, which is that emotional energy, right? Like if you're just like loving what's going on, right? DJing, it sounds like that was a passion of yours, right?

• 25:47Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 25:48Speaker 00

  That fun in a situation gives you energy and it gives you the ability to sort of cope with the annoying lights, the annoying crowds, things like that. I have a three-year-old son, right? And he's actually a very sensitive person. He's also a very social person. But, you know, he just gets excited about seeing turkeys. We have, we have turkeys that run through our neighborhood. He gets so excited. There's that emotional energy that gives him the ability to overcome stressors around him, right? And I think it's actually, I'm actually working on a conversation course for introverted, anxious and shy people. And I talk about drawing the fun out of a situation as a way to give you more energy

• 26:32Speaker 00

  and as a way to cope with some of the stressors in your environment.

• 26:36Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm, no, that makes sense. I'm sure there'd be a lot of interest in that. Yeah, part of what was coming to me also as you're describing that is this notion of I wasn't actually interacting with any people in those circumstances.

• 26:47Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 26:48Jonathan Fields?

  Like when I was a DJ, I was, I was in my own little, you know, like cocoon. And even when I was on a dance floor, you know, like maybe I was there with a friend or two, but we weren't, I wasn't talking to like the thousand other people around me bumping into me. I was in the physical space interacting with them, but there was no sense of me being like, like having to feel a need to actually interact socially with them in any way, shape or form. You know, if anything, like for most people, that would have been a little weird. So I wonder if that played a role in it also.

• 27:18Speaker 00

  I bet it did. You were in your own private oasis. Yeah.

• 27:21Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  I really enjoy going out in public and just doing my own thing, you know, like go to a movie on my own, go out to eat, just walk around a crowded park on my own. It, you know, it sort of gives me a connection to other people, but I'm not actually having to make small talk with anyone.

• 27:36Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And, and I wonder if also you write about, um, you use this metaphor of a bucket. Whether, I think that maybe that's helpful and also sort of like helping understand this when maybe like there's a tipping point that we hit as well. Take me into this a bit.

• 27:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. So the, the bucket metaphor comes from my book, Sensitive, and it's this idea that we all have this bucket, right? This invisible bucket that we carry around with us. And every piece of stimulation throughout the day gets added to this bucket. And some of us have a bigger bucket. Some of us have a smaller bucket, like sensitive people. And eventually it just becomes too much. There's just too much in that bucket and it overflows. And when the bucket overflows, we're going to feel emotionally dysregulated. We'll feel stressed, overwhelmed, overstimulated, maybe even like angry, right? And, and irritated. That happens as a parent of a toddler.

• 28:31Speaker 00

  I can attest that that happens sometimes, you know? And so it's, it's, yeah, it does build up, right? I've noticed in myself that if I'm, you know, just kind of at home for a few days, not really much is going on, I can go out into an environment where there's a lot going on. And it, and it takes, and I can do that for a time. Um, it doesn't, you know, you know, I kind of have built up some space. In my bucket, right, to have stimulation coming in. But if it's just back to back stuff where my weekend is really busy, it's, you know, I'm at loud, public places. There's, there's a lot going on with my friends or my, just whatever. If there's just a lot going on, it's like, there's no space left in my bucket. And it's just, it's just overflowing and, and that, that can get really hard.

• 29:15Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, it sounds like it would make sense. And like, if you know this about yourself, to really think about the way that you're going to step into high stimulation environments and, and almost like pre-plan. You know, it's like, what am I going to do to be okay to sort of like lower the level in my bucket intermittently so I don't, I don't tip into that place where things just get really hard. Does that make sense?

• 29:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the best things that sensitive people can do is give themselves those breaks before they really need them. Once you've hit full-blown stress over simulation mode, it's going to take a lot of time and more effort to bring your body down, to bring your emotions down. But if you can plan and prepare and give yourself those breaks and build downtime into things, that's going to stop your bucket from overflowing, right? It's easier to deal with a bucket that hasn't overflowed yet or is maybe close to, but a lot harder to deal with a bucket that's already spilling out.

• 30:15Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, that makes so much sense. Part of what I do is speak and I have a lot of friends who are in the speaking industry also. And what I've learned is that if I'm going somewhere and, and like I'm retained to give a keynote for, so I'm on stage for an hour, you know? It's not unusual for the organizer to say, hey, listen, we'd love you to stick around and like be like, come to lunch with us, then come to dinner with us and then be in the conference or the event and make yourself available. And the part of me is like, that sounds like I would love to be able to do that. And I also know that I can't. Like if you want me to be my best when you're paying me to be my best. Then I've got to really take care of myself. And it's not that I don't want to be there.

• 30:56Jonathan Fields?

  And part of that is this is an introvert thing, but part of it is also it's just a general stimulation thing. If you're at a massive event with like all this noise and energy coming at you. And I've learned to say the hard no.

• 31:08Speaker 00

  Good for you.

• 31:09Jonathan Fields?

  Which is not easy because you really you want to show up and give your all.

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 31:13Jonathan Fields?

  And I think sometimes you get judged in those contexts. And I would imagine people listening have their own version of that, like in a work context.

• 31:19Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Yeah, good for you. Yeah, that's really tough. I think we do have to set those boundaries and recognize what our limits are, right? It's it's okay to have limits. It's okay to say no. It's okay to just need to do what works for you as an introvert or a sensitive person.

• 31:37Jonathan Fields?

  Okay, so that brings up one other curiosity here. So using the speaking sort of like example again, I'm also completely fine being on stage in front of thousands of people. I mean, I was terrified in the beginning, but that was sort of like typical to most people. And having done it for many, many years now, I actually really enjoy it. You know, I'm like, I don't freak out. The size, the stimulation on and again, it's like, I'm wondering, is that one of those just like rare things where something like a switch gets flipped and I'm just like, I'm in my own private universe for that moment in time, even though in theory I'm in a room with thousands of people and lights and sound systems and all this stuff.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  You know, I also think it has to do with that planning and preparation piece because a lot of, you know, introverts and sensitive people, when they have that time to mentally prepare, they do really well, right? And it's also sort of like a structure that you can control, right? Like, I know what's going to happen. I'm going to walk up here. I'm going to say this and then I'm going to step down, right? It's not somebody throwing a small talk question at you where you have to think of something to say on the spot. Both sensitive people and introverts tend to do well when there's a structure, they know what's going to happen and they can prepare. And of course, right, everybody does better on some level when they can prepare and have structure.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  But if you're someone who's soaking up so much from the world around you, you need that even more.

• 33:03Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, just something to kind of ground you, give you that.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:06Jonathan Fields?

  That makes a lot of sense. So you mentioned earlier, you kind of rifled through a couple of what I would call sort of like the. The bonuses, the gifts, the offering side of sensitivity. And you write about, I think it's five different gifts of sensitivity. I'd love to walk through each of those and sort of tease them out a little bit more so I can understand, like, what is it? How do they show up? And how do we work with it?

• 33:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, so the first one we mentioned already is empathy. So sensitive people, they easily step into other people's shoes. They easily see other people's perspectives. And sometimes they do this so much that they are feeling other people's pain. We all do this to some extent. Humans are designed to pick up on the emotions of other people. You know, that's how civilizations get built, right? If we have somebody who, a leader who inspires everyone to come together and build something, it's also how fear can ripple through communities. Because we're picking up on the feelings of other people. But if you're sensitive, you're doing this even more because you're noticing those little cues. You're noticing the way someone's eyes look.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  You're noticing that expression on their face that flashes and then is gone. You're thinking about these things deeply. So you're picking up on those emotions, you're feeling those emotions deeply. And empathy can be painful, right? If someone you care about is hurting, it's painful for you, right? Let's not pretend that it's easy to feel that empathy. But it's also amazing, right? I mean, wouldn't you say that empathy is something that we need more of right now? Especially now, I mean, always, but especially right now?

• 34:43Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, I completely agree. I think the ability to actually stand in someone's shoes, to really sort of like, not just understand or know or sympathize, but actually sort of like feel what they're feeling so you can truly understand it is incredibly important and powerful. And at the same time, as you described, like, isn't there a tipping point there also? Where if you feel so much, somebody else is... Experience, and that can include pain and suffering, then don't we tip into pain and suffering along with them? Where it's not only, you know, good where we can show up and, and take care of them and feel for them and respond to them in a positive way, but we get basically sucked into the abyss alongside them.

• 35:23Speaker 00

  Right, yeah, it's, that's something that sensitive people have to manage, not getting sucked into the abyss with them. One thing that's helped me is to remember that when I am sucked into that abyss, because I've been there, that's not helping anyone, right? It's not actually helping the person who's hurting. They need me to be able to, you know, in some cases, stand strong for them, show up for them, physically help them, emotionally help them. It's actually like making the suffering worse in a way, because I'm sucked down into my own suffering and I'm not able to be there for them.

• 35:57Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm, a bunch of years back, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, who's a neuroscientist and psychiatrist, and he made this distinction that I'd never heard before between what he called cognitive

• 36:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:06Jonathan Fields?

  versus emotional empathy.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 36:08Jonathan Fields?

  You know, which is, and the way he described it to me was, you know, cognitive is like, you kind of go there and you understand on a very deep visceral embodied layer, but you're not there with them. So that you're capable of functioning and helping relieve their suffering and being with them. Whereas emotional, he's like, you're basically feeling what they're feeling, which can be good up to a point like we described, but then it just turns into two people going through something really hard and feeling terrible and, and probably having trouble taking action to feel differently. So it can be a slippery slope.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  Absolutely, yeah. In my book, I talk about those different types of empathy. I think it can help to put the spotlight on the other person. You know, instead of shifting the spotlight, which is your attention, or I should say, instead of putting the spotlight on yourself and your own feelings for them and for the situation, it can help to just shift your focus onto that person. What do they need? How can I help? And, and yeah, that, that does help us switch a little from emotional to cognitive empathy. It's not easy though, right? It's, it's hard.

• 37:11Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and empathy, if you really look at it as, you know, the seed of compassion, you know, this becomes a superpower because it's sort of like it gives you source fuel to then be out, to activate the altruism side of compassion, you know, like.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 37:23Jonathan Fields?

  And then actually really be of service.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  Yes, absolutely.

• 37:27Jonathan Fields?

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• 38:10Jonathan Fields?

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• 39:26Jonathan Fields?

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• 40:30Jonathan Fields?

  So empathy is one. Creativity is another one that you speak about.

• 40:33Speaker 00

  Yes, we touched on that already. If you're picking up details, if you're thinking about things deeply, you're going to be creative, right? How can you not be creative if your brain is doing those things? And again, it doesn't have to be painting a painting, doesn't have to be composing music. Maybe you're finding a solution to something that someone else hasn't found. Maybe you're finding a way to work through conflicts in a relationship or with a team in a way that someone else can't do because you're thinking creatively and flexibly about things. So yes, sensitive people, they do tend to be artists, they do tend to be musicians, performers, writers, and so on. But they're also people not in

• 41:13Speaker 00

  those typical creative professions and using their creativity in different ways.

• 41:19Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and I'm glad you made that distinction also, because I do think so often we're like, oh, are you a creative person? Are you a creative type?

• 41:26Speaker 00

  Right.

• 41:27Jonathan Fields?

  You know, it's like, no, actually, you know, like, you can be a mechanic, but access creativity, just come up with really cool, novel solutions to problems, or a therapist, or a

• 41:35Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 41:36Jonathan Fields?

  Conductor, or you know, like whatever it is like it like you don't have to be in these traditionally labeled creative professional field. It's like, no, it's just your ability to see things differently. And then see how two things, you know, come together and form a third that didn't exist before, you know?

• 41:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 41:52Jonathan Fields?

  And that helps everyone.

• 41:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, a lot of sensitive people do tend to be therapists, teachers, caregiving roles, because we have that empathy. And that's certainly a place that we can use our creativity, too.

• 42:05Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. All right. Sensory intelligence.

• 42:07Speaker 00

  Oh, yes. So this is that ability to pick up cues in your environment. I mean, we're just talking the physical environment. If you play sports, if you're in the military, if you're doing construction work, whatever, you need to be able to notice the way the light looks, hear that sound in the bushes, think about where the ball is going to be five seconds from now, just based on the movements of the other people who are playing. You know, again, this ties into creativity, because if you're noticing those details, well, yeah, that that's going to help you make a great painting or create a great sculpture. But

• 42:52Speaker 00

  it is so much more than that. You know, it's the mom who is noticing something just being a little off about maybe something in their yard or something like that, you know, just noticing something off about a situation and then being able to course correct and take care of their kids. It's a very powerful tool to be tuned into your environment so deeply.

• 43:16Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I would imagine, especially now, when we have technology that is so powerfully tuning us out of our environment. It's like, it's like your head is down in your palm 24/7. And like, if you have this capacity, sort of like look up more readily and actually see what's going on, I would imagine it just gives you all sorts of, I don't want to say advantages, but just benefits in the way you move through the world. Depth of processing.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, so this is thinking deeply about things. So you're picking up information.

• 43:53Speaker 00

  You're picking up more details, but you're also reflecting on it more. You know, and, and there's a difficult side to this because maybe you end up overthinking. You know, maybe you're lying awake at night thinking about that thing your coworker said. That's hard, but again, we need people who are thinking deeply. We need people who are taking the time to really think things through instead of just giving something a passing glance and moving on. So if you're a sensitive person who's processing deeply, you are thinking about some problem after your coworkers have already gone home for the day and called it a night.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  And again, that can be challenging, but think about the solutions that you can come up with when you refuse not to give up on an idea or a problem.

• 44:45Jonathan Fields?

  And that brings us to depth of emotion, if I remember correctly.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  Yes. So this is probably the most understood, most misunderstood gift of sensitivity because it's feeling emotions in a strong and intense way. And of course, everybody, whether they're sensitive or not, feels strong emotions sometimes.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  But sensitive people feel those things deeply, their, their brains are turning over that, that emotion. Maybe their brains are chewing on that embarrassment or sadness or joy and happiness. A lot of times we focus on those difficult emotions, but sensitive people feel joy, happiness, love, peace. You know, they, they feel those intensely too, which is a wonderful gift. And isn't that what it means to be a human being, to feel emotions and experience the richness of all that life has to offer?

• 45:46Jonathan Fields?

  It's interesting, all five of these, you could look at all of them and say, okay, I can see how this would be like incredible gift, incredible capability, like a superpower almost.

• 45:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 45:58Jonathan Fields?

  And at the same time, each one of them, it's like the superhero thing, like every superhero also has a kryptonite. So each one of these five also can be kryptonite, is sort of like expressed in a way which is unhealthy or dysfunctional, or you know, like over expressed in a way.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  Yes, absolutely. And that can be a challenge, right? It can, if you're going through life, feeling things deeply, not being able to regulate those feelings, if you're noticing things all the time, if you're thinking about things to the point of exhaustion and stress, yeah, that can be really tough and you probably need to find some ways to cope with that, which is possible. You know, I always like to remind people that it is possible, because a lot of people say, ah, this is, you know, this is really hard, it's really hard to be a sensitive person, and it is, right? It's hard to be a human being in general, but there are ways to cope and deal with these things and thrive and succeed.

• 46:56Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. Have you found some of what has become sort of like the most popular, common self-care practices these days to be effective at that, things like mindfulness or breathing and things like that?

• 47:10Speaker 00

  Oh, gosh, the most popular. That's hard to say, because everybody finds something that works for them, right? There are so many different things that people can do, but I think anything that slows us down, mindfulness, taking a walk in your neighborhood, just sitting in your favorite chair with a cup of tea or coffee, anything that slows us down can help us feel more regulated. Even just doing daily activities in a slower way can help us feel more regulated, right? Making dinner, grocery shopping, right? Those are often things we just want to get through. But if we can just take a down and up, slow down, our brains and bodies are going to feel more regulated. You know, sensitive people like to journal, I like to journal, exercise really helps

• 47:54Speaker 00

  me, you know, whether it's yoga or cardio or strength training, like.

• 48:00Speaker 00

  It just feels so good to move my body, moving my body helps me move through my emotions and my thoughts. And you know, get those endorphins too. So you feel good afterwards. Therapy, creative activities, right? We've said like, sensitive people don't have to be in typical creative careers, but drawing something, pottery, whatever, all of the times those are very meditative and you get to express yourself. So yeah, oh my gosh, there's so many, there's so many great self-care practices that sensitive people can do.

• 48:30Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And it sounds like you really just have to experiment to figure out like what actually works for me. My mom was a potter actually when I was growing up and she would like, the world would vanish away when she was in her studio. There was like nothing that existed except her, like the wheel and the clay. And that was, you could tell she was just in a magical place. And I think we're also probably pretty similar to the wire. So I think, you know, we just, we kind of find the things that work for us. You know, and one of the other things which I'm curious about is, and this is something you write about and you speak about, is sensitive people in personal relationships and how you might show up differently, how this affects your both

• 49:13Jonathan Fields?

  capacity to be more open and deeper and feel more, but at the same time, maybe even your sense of wanting to feel more protected and not allowing yourself to go there.

• 49:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think relationships can be really challenging for sensitive people. Relationships are, and people issues are usually one of the top concerns that I hear from sensitive people, whether it's coworkers or a romantic relationship or family or whatever, because we are so tuned into other people and we care, right? Our empathy makes us care. So yeah, I think it can be tough, right? You might feel like you need to put up certain walls to keep people out and to keep yourself from feeling what's going on. But you know, sensitive people, everybody, right? Finds joy in connecting with other people. Oh, it's about, it's all about that balance, right?

• 50:09Speaker 00

  Trying to balance being with others, connecting with others, but also honoring your own needs.

• 50:14Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. Do you see or are you aware of research that sort of has looked at the dynamic between, let's say, two sensitive people in a relationship together versus somebody who identifies as being sensitive and somebody who doesn't, or?

• 50:28Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 50:29Jonathan Fields?

  And whether like there are patterns that we can sort of tease out that to either look out for or run towards.

• 50:35Speaker 00

  Great question. I'm not aware of any research that has tackled that specific question, but I can tell you what I've heard from fans and readers and sensitive people I've talked to. I think if it's two sensitive people in a relationship, it can be beautiful and intimate. But you know, there's this strong emotional side, right? And so maybe the other person is feeling really stressed that day and so you start feeling stressed, right? And so there can be this tendency to have heightened emotions, often in a really positive way, but also sometimes in a challenging way. And then I think if you're a sensitive person in a relationship with a less sensitive person, there are different strengths and challenges, right?

• 51:16Speaker 00

  You might have someone who is sort of able to go out into the world for you, right? Like you take the kid to the loud birthday party while I stay home and maybe, you know, quietly make us dinner or something like that. I think some of the challenges there are, you know, that the other person just might not understand the way you perceive the world. They might not have that same level of need for meaningful and emotional connection that a sensitive person might have. You know, and that isn't to say that less sensitive people don't want meaning and don't want an emotional connection, but sensitive people just tend to really crave those things and. And really organize their search for relationships around those things,

• 52:01Speaker 00

  around finding meaning and around connecting emotionally. So I think there isn't like a perfect answer. I, you know, I wouldn't say, oh, if you're a sensitive person, you absolutely have to be in a relationship with another sensitive person or else it will never work. You know, I would never say that. But I think it's just different strengths and challenges, depending on what the dynamics are.

• 52:20Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and maybe just like really being open, having a conversation about like just observing, hey, like this is the way that I admire it. And the other person, this is what I admire. Okay, so let's acknowledge this.

• 52:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 52:30Jonathan Fields?

  How does that show up? How does this lead us to want to step deeper into relationship or want to withdraw from it? So we can kind of know each other in a way where we can kind of understand like what activates us and what triggers us and what's healthy and what leads towards dysfunction.

• 52:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 52:46Jonathan Fields?

  It sounds like probably just being really open and communicating that is probably the most important thing there.

• 52:51Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 52:52Jonathan Fields?

  But also brings up another question for me, which is, and you spoke to this just for sort of like a hot second in the beginning of a conversation, but now I'm more curious about it, which is, do there tend to be these gender norms that are associated with sensitivity or not sensitivity? And does that potentially cause friction if you don't conform with them?

• 53:13Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think we often think of sensitivity as a feminine trait. You know, I heard that from people that I talked to when I was writing my book. There was one woman who she was reading an early draft of my book. And she said, oh, my gosh, this really describes me. I'm definitely a sensitive person. And she said, I think the man I'm dating is also a sensitive person. I'm an Italian, right? So she said, I think you're a highly sensitive person, just like me. And he got really upset. He said, no, I'm not sensitive. Don't call me that. You know, he took it as an insult. So, you know, that's just one couple, but I think it sort of speaks to the broader dynamic of. You know, traditional masculinity says you can't be sensitive.

• 53:58Speaker 00

  You can't show your emotions. You have to just toughen up, buck up, push through. And you know, emotions are a feminine thing. Sensitivity is a feminine thing, you know, which we know isn't true because sensitive people are found in, you know, both equally males and females. So it's, I think it can be really hard to be a highly sensitive male in our society today.

• 54:21Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm, I mean, it's really interesting. I'm also wondering, like, I mean, we're talking about the context of two partners, you know, in two adult partners in a relationship. But then you also bring in the potential dynamic of kids, like parenting kids. You know, especially when what happens if you are an adult who is not sensitive or doesn't identify as being that way.

• 54:44Speaker 00

  Right.

• 54:45Jonathan Fields?

  And then you have a kid who very much is, but they also like don't fit with the gender norm. And you have all these messages that have been like

• 54:54Speaker 00

  Right.

• 54:54Jonathan Fields?

  Taught to you, the way you show up in the world. And you never butted up against them because your wiring just kind of like flowed with them. It synced. So you're like, okay, like this is the way it's supposed to be. And then you see a kid and you're like, oh, there's something wrong here that I need to fix. Like, that's not acceptable. Like, I would imagine this can be a real issue in parenting and sort of like dynamics between kids and parents.

• 55:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, parents who have sensitive children often feel like, oh, my gosh, we need to do something, we need to fix this. Right. And there are obviously challenges that that you want to address and things you want to do to help your child. I'm not saying to not do that. But yeah, I think there's sort of this tendency to, oh, my gosh, we have to, we have to make them better. We have to fix the sensitivity thing. They're just too sensitive for the world. I hope nobody has to go through that. I hope nobody has to feel that way. I think sensitivity can be an amazing strength. We just have to harness it in the right way.

• 55:48Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, which really speaks to the need for education to really understand this is not something that is broken that needs to be fixed. And yet, if you come from generations where you've been told this is the way it is, it's probably going to take some time for you to wrap your head around that.

• 56:02Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Yes, yes.

• 56:05Jonathan Fields?

  Nah, as long as we're in relationships and how this shows up, I mean, if we expand this out, we talked, kind of touched on this a little bit, but I'd love to dip into it specifically, which is how this can really show up in relationships, in professional contexts, in work, especially in work, you know, if it's sort of colleagues where there's parity, you're on a team together, you're both three years into the company, similar roles, similar jobs, like similar levels of power and agency, like I would imagine there's one dynamic there. But then when you start to look at situations in work where there's power and equity, or like very different power dynamics, like one person is a boss, one layer up or two layers up for you, they have a certain amount of control over not

• 56:50Jonathan Fields?

  just how you're going to experience every day at work, but also the trajectory that you might be able to have open to you in a work situation. I would imagine that this can get really thorny, too.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. You know, when I spoke with sensitive people, they often said that at work, the biggest challenge to them, you know, was the people. It wasn't the lights, it wasn't all the, you know, commuting, things like that, that we might typically name, but it was the relationships and the dynamics with people. And that makes sense, because sensitive people tend to see other people as a very bright spot on their radar. We're very tuned into them and, and those power dynamics, like you said.

• 57:35Jonathan Fields?

  Nah, have you seen in conversations that you've had sensitive people effectively performing nonsensitivity as a way to sort of preserve their status and possibility within a work environment?

• 57:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's part of the toughness myth, that we hide our sensitivity. I think a lot of us have been socialized to do that, right? We feel the need to hide our, our emotions and our reactions. And right, of course, you don't want to be just like openly crying in every meeting you have, right? Let's not take it to an extreme. But I think there's a place where sensitive people can show the empathy.

• 58:15Speaker 00

  Show the emotions, show their reactions and their thoughts to the world around them without having to be labeled as too sensitive, or you're just too emotional, you're just too sensitive, you're not going to be able to do your job well. Yeah, I do wish that workplaces could see the power of sensitivity and not see it as a bad thing.

• 58:36Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. Any thoughts on how somebody in that situation, just on a practical day-to-day basis, might be able to just handle it in a way where they can breathe more easily?

• 58:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it often comes down to having conversations with the people around you. So maybe it's a conversation with your boss, and if you feel comfortable using a term like highly sensitive person, great. If you don't feel comfortable, that's okay, too. You don't have to make it a big conversation that's about your needs and your personality. It can be about what works best for you in that environment. You know, if we could do this a little differently, or if I could have this, you know, that would help my productivity, that would help me at work. So I think if we can come and make a specific ask, right, instead of making it a big conversation about who we are, right, if we come with something specific, I think that can help.

• 59:34Speaker 00

  And then I think it's just honoring who we are as people as we do our work. Do we need to take a break? Do we need to change something in our environment, whether it's the lights, whether it's the sound? Would decorating my workspace just help me feel better as a person as I work? It's having those conversations with the people in our workspace, but it's also taking what's under our control, you know, taking control of that and making the changes that we need to make for ourselves and owning what we need.

• 1:00:07Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I love that you brought that in also. It's this notion of really looking around at our environment in particular, I would imagine, and saying, okay, so what can I actually control or change or manipulate in a way that'd be really helpful for me where I don't have to? Ask for permission or get authorization. I can just do it and know that know that it's just gonna really help me show up the way that I want to show up. And to the extent that that doesn't take care of all of it, then I can have these other conversations too, to see if I can get a little bit of buy in. And it's interesting the way you teed it up also. It's sort of like it would help me be more productive. I think oftentimes when we have those conversations with somebody who's a leader or manager, if we can frame it in a way that links it to a better outcome for that person or the team,

• 1:00:51Jonathan Fields?

  you know, with a very modest shift, that it kind of makes it a lot easier for somebody to say like, "Okay, totally get that because we all want the same outcome. We want all of it."

• 1:01:00Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:01:00Jonathan Fields?

  So that that makes a lot of sense.

• 1:01:04Jonathan Fields?

  Zooming the lens out, when you think about sort of like where we are, sensitive people in the world today, in this moment in time, have a lot coming at them and a lot to deal with. When you look forward, you know, like over the next five years, 10 years, do you have a take on sort of how best to think about the future? And how to step into it and prepare yourself in a way that might just let you bring all those gifts to your relationships, to the world, and at the same time feel good along the way?

• 1:01:37Speaker 00

  That's a really big question.

• 1:01:38Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  That's a really, really big question.

• 1:01:44Speaker 00

  I would say zooming out, the best thing that sensitive people can do is embrace their sensitivity. Stop treating it like it's something that needs to be fixed. Stop treating yourself like you're broken. When you value yourself, other people will start to value you too. Look at your strengths, address those challenges, but lean into your strengths. I think it can really help sensitive people to tune into their own bodies. A lot of times we are raised as sensitive people to just ignore signals from our bodies, right? And all of us have been taught that to some extent. But if you're told repeatedly, "You're too sensitive. You need to toughen up. Get over it." It's easy to think, okay, I can't trust my own body. I can't trust my own emotions.

• 1:02:29Speaker 00

  And our bodies and emotions are giving us important information. They're giving us data about the world. They're giving us data about our relationships, our job, our, you know, whatever, whatever is going on. So I think when sensitive people can tune into themselves and reflect on how things affect them, then that's going to give them a path forward to making positive changes in their lives.

• 1:02:53Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm, love that. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

• 1:03:03Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:03:07Speaker 00

  I think, to me, a good life is slowing down. It's recognizing the little moments that make us happy. You can't control a lot of things that happen in your life. We can't control what's happening in the world right now, but we can control little things in our lives. We can sip a hot cup of coffee. We can take a moment to play with our child and look into their eyes and give them a hug. We can, you know, relax with a good book and just do something that feels good to us and our bodies and our, and our feelings

• 1:03:47Speaker 00

  and our wellbeing. So, yeah, to me, to me, a good life is, is a life that is one that is, gives time for reflection and relaxing and enjoying what's going on around us.

• 1:04:01Jonathan Fields?

  Thank you.

• 1:04:02Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:04:05Jonathan Fields?

  If you loved this episode, safe bet you'll also love the conversation we had with Elaine Aaron about being highly sensitive. You'll find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelley Del Bliss for her research on this episode. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your Favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor. Share it with just one person. And if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too.

• 1:04:50Jonathan Fields?

  But just one person even, then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Cause that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

• 1:05:10Jonathan Fields?

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• 1:05:52Jonathan Fields?

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