Brené Brown | The One Thing That Changes Everything [Best of]

Embrace the raw courage found in vulnerability. Researcher Brené Brown shares her personal journey confronting shame to live and work wholeheartedly - the profound experiences that allowed her to develop paradigm-shifting perspectives on vulnerability, daring leadership, and showing up authentically. You can find Brené at: Website https://brenebrown.com/ | Instagram https://www.instagram.com/brenebrown/ | Brené's Podcasts https://brenebrown.com/podcasts/ | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/brene-brown-on-vulnerability-courage-and-living-wholeheartedly If you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Elizabeth Gilbert https://episodes.fm/647826736/episode/NjYyMjkwNzA1NTk0MjAwMDEzNGY5MDAw about bringing your whole self to your life. Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the Wheel https://jonathanfields.substack.com/aboutVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  One of the things that I say that maybe pisses people off more than anything else I say, whether it's leaders, parents, is that we cannot give people what we don't have. And we can't ask people to do what we're not doing. And that makes people crazy. And I get it as a parent, especially because, you know, when I tell parents, you can't raise a child with a greater sense of resilience than your own. You can't raise a child with more self compassion than what you have. They get twitchy, they get crunchy and yeah. But when I tell people, I'm not sure that you can love a child more than you love yourself. People get hostile.

• 0:38Jonathan Fields?

  So what if daring to be open and real unlock not just your greatest potential, but also pretty much everything good in every relationship or experience you could ever have? What if the thing that so many of us fear most, that others will discover how flawed and human and real we are, is actually the gateway to the life we so desperately want to live? And what if choosing courage over comfort opened the doors to a world and a life you never imagined? These are just some of the questions that I dive into with Brene Brown. So Brene has spent the last two decades studying the transformational power of vulnerability. Author of six number one New York Times bestsellers,

• 1:20Jonathan Fields?

  Brene's really inspiring research on courage, worthiness and shame has enlightened millions worldwide. And a research professor at University of Houston, she's a leading voice on topics like empathy, resilience and living a wholehearted life. Her groundbreaking TED Talk on the power of vulnerability has now been viewed over 60 million times. And I really love Brene's ability to translate complicated academic concepts into just accessible language and stories. And speaking of stories, she is a deeply compelling storyteller who will draw you in, then open your heart in no small part by sharing hers with you first. In fact, the conversation that unfolded between us moved both of us to tears at various points.

• 2:03Jonathan Fields?

  Brene was so beautifully real, raw, candid and wise. As a best of episode, every part of this conversation. Is as relevant today, maybe more so, given the current climate than it was the day we talked. As Brene notes, "There is incredible power in the willingness to be seen in owning our stories, we can own our lives. A willingness to face uncertainty, vulnerability, and emotional exposure together is what allows communities to truly connect." So, listen in as Brene and I explore the courage and compassion that emerge when we dare to be open, real, and seen. The conversation that unfolded really did leave me changed, and perhaps it will inspire you to pursue an idea you've kept to yourself for too long.

• 2:47Jonathan Fields?

  So excited to share this best of conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.

• 3:33Jonathan Fields?

  Good Life Project is sponsored by Steel. So, I am not in the studio today. I'm actually out on the trail in the Rockies at about 6,000 feet above sea level in Boulder. The leaves are exploding with color and it's just stunning out. And yes, I'm wearing my favorite Steel hat and just last night I was wearing one of my favorite Steel jackets, which if you know me is not unusual. I wear the hat almost every day and my Steel jackets pretty much live on me all fall and winter. There's even a Steel shop back in town, practically in my backyard. Here is why I love them. Steel is designed and tested in Jackson Hole at the base of the Tetons by locals who ski and bike and hike and climb and fish there pretty much every day. They have been at it since 2011, so they know warmth and they also know style.

• 4:18Jonathan Fields?

  Everything I have from them, it works. Looks great. It holds up in every condition and also looks awesome. And their hometown down is 800 filled down, but it feels more like just your favorite hoodie than a puffy. And ski season is almost here, so gear up now the way that the locals do. Go to stio.com/goodlife for 20% off your order. That's S T I O dot com slash good life. stio.com/goodlife. Stio, designed and tested in Jackson Hole. Good Life Project is supported by Ernesta rugs. So a small confession, our front porch has been the most neglected corner of our home since we moved in. It's the first thing anyone steps onto and it's been kind of greeting people with a sad, too small mat. Ernesta sent me their samples and now they're making us a rug.

• 5:03Jonathan Fields?

  And the cool thing is for $10, you get five oversized 12 by 12 samples. So you see the colors at real scale in your own space before you even get it. So we lived with all five colors for a few days and cool morning light and golden afternoon light. And we're sure to be roused on the sky, but Caldwell just kind of kept quietly winning. The thing you're certain about isn't always the thing that fits. And because Ernesta rugs are custom size, cut to the ins. The one we ordered is made to our exact six and a half feet by nine feet space, not close enough. Visit ernesta.com and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 toward any rug of your choice. That's E R N E S T A dot com. Awesome to have you here with Esper.

• 5:46Speaker 00

  I'm excited to be here. Thank you.

• 5:48Jonathan Fields?

  One of my fascinations with you is you present. So like when I first saw your TED Talk, I was blown away, as were millions and billions of people. You present as this radiant, wise, snarky, funny presence. And I'm always curious when I see that in somebody, somebody who's so strong and so powerful and so full of life. Is this something that you sort of like stepped into later in life? Or were you the kid who sort of manifested this also?

• 6:17Speaker 00

  No, I was not, A, definitely I was not the kid. I think I stepped into it much later in life. And I think what I stepped into was understanding that the weird, introverted, pattern seeing person that I was. What I stepped into is a sense of, I like that person.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  And I, and I want to be that person. And but I think I dreaded being that person growing up. I think I, I thought, oh, something's off base. Because it's not like, you know, I grew up watching, you know, I went to Greece 25 times when it came out.

• 7:03Speaker 00

  You know, like, I wanted to be that person. I wanted to be Olivia Newton-John with a cigarette and a catsuit. You know, winning over John Travolta. Like, I, I didn't want to be the, I didn't think, you know, I'm awesome. I'm 13, and I'm going to be a qualitative researcher and study things that scare the shit out of people. Right on. Yeah, I thought like, I want to date with a quarterback. Yeah, because that's how I was raised. And so the things that, about me that I love now, I, were painful probably then. Like, I've always seen things in patterns. And I didn't know that there was like a job, like, that, that's what qualitative researchers do. So I just thought maybe I was a part of the underworld or something or something. I thought it was like, I thought it was weird, and I didn't fit in really.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  Didn't have a sense of belonging.

• 7:49Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, which, which is probably a more common experience than most people own up to.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that makes me in the majority, for sure. Yeah, I just, yeah.

• 7:58Jonathan Fields?

  At what point do you start to realize in your life that, that in fact, that does make you in the majority?

• 8:04Speaker 00

  When I started doing this work. I mean, I think that's, that's the gift of doing this work is that I know, no matter how bleak the feeling, how desperate the feeling, how weird the experience or smell or idea, that none of us are alone.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  Some, I did a radio show on Wisconsin Public Radio a couple of days ago, and a caller called in and shared a Thich Nhat Hanh quote with me that just brought me to my knees. It said, um, "Our purpose," and I'm kind of probably going to butcher it a little bit, "but our sole purpose here is to get over the illusion of our separateness." You know, and I think that's what my work is. Like, we're all in this together. And I had no idea that the things that made me feel so much on the outside were the things that would ultimately, when I stepped into some self-worth, be the things that connected me the strongest to other people. That make sense?

• 9:03Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, I think it does. I'm curious also whether it was an evolutionary experience for you to realize this, or whether there were moments, you know, where there are sort of like decisive moments or experiences with people or things that made you say, okay, I'm starting to get that there's a different way to live in the world and I want to be a part of figuring that out.

• 9:24Speaker 00

  No, there was decisive moments. There were, yeah, I'm not like a slow unraveling kind of person as much as I would like to be. No, there was a moment, I mean, I can picture, I know what I was wearing, like, it was in November of 2006, I was at my adder wooden red painted breakfast room table. I was sitting at the table, I was coding a bunch of new data, asking this new question for the first time, going back into the shame data and saying, well, okay, I understand what shame is and I understand how that operates in our lives, but what about these men and women who are living wholeheartedly, like, who are really all in, what did they have in common? And I had giant, you know, those post-it notes that are poster size, I had them all

• 10:05Speaker 00

  over my kitchen and my living room, I was writing down words and basically what emerged from that process were two lists, like, here are the behaviors that the wholehearted folks are engaging in, and here's what they are trying to let go of, here's what they're trying to move away from in their lives, and the move away from list was, it was as if someone described me on a list. Like, I was every, I called it the shit list. I was everything on that list. Judgmental, perfectionistic, all work, not only no play, no rest, but kind of disregard for play and rest and people who thought it was important.

• 10:43Jonathan Fields?

  So you're coming at it from this like, science mind, let me just figure this out, and then you're looking at this, you're like, oh my, this is personal.

• 10:52Speaker 00

  Oh, I was devastated. I couldn't believe it, I just remember folding my hands up on the top of the table and putting my head down and just thinking.

• 11:00Speaker 00

  Because you know, I think up until that moment and then the work that followed, I trusted my professional self immensely, but didn't trust my personal self as much. So I knew that I know I'm a good researcher. And so I knew if these words were emerging, like these qualities were important, these choices, doing something creative, you know, like that's a great example, like creativity emerged as so important. Comparison emerged as the shame counterpoint to that. And I was in this comparative person, you could, I mean, every, I was always comparing myself to other people. And I was scoffing at creativity. Like people would say, hey, do you want to go do a painting class with me? Or do you want a scrapbook?

• 11:40Speaker 00

  And up until that moment, I would say, no. I thought it was flaky and self indulgent and I'm not going to really do that kind of crap. I'm busy working. So yeah, it was, there was a moment that so shifted.

• 11:55Jonathan Fields?

  So I, and I actually want to, I want to kind of go a little bit deeper there. But before that, for you use the word wholeheartedness a lot. Talk to me about that. What is it? What do you mean when you use that, that phrase?

• 12:07Speaker 00

  I was trying to figure out a word, one of the, I'm a grounded theory researcher, which means we take, we develop theory from people's lived experiences. And then our primary job is to language it in a way that resonates with people. And so I was trying to figure out what's a word for people that I would describe as all in, who are just really living and loving entirely. And wholehearted is language and actually in the Book of Common Prayer that, in the Episcopal Church that we use. And there's this line that says, I have not loved you with my whole heart. And that was always very powerful for me when I said it.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  And so the word that came to mind was wholehearted.

• 12:54Jonathan Fields?

  So which is kind of fascinating right there too, because you're, you're taking some, a term which comes from a place which is very not scientific. It's very faith based.

• 13:02Speaker 00

  Super faith based.

• 13:03Jonathan Fields?

  And then you're bringing it into like your world, which is like totally linear, like prove it or, or you know, it doesn't matter, you know, what happens. You're like, how do you measure that?

• 13:13Speaker 00

  No, it's true. And I've received, I got a lot of flack from it too.

• 13:17Jonathan Fields?

  From, from the academic community?

• 13:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:20Jonathan Fields?

  Huh.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:21Jonathan Fields?

  Just for the use of the term?

• 13:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. You shouldn't name constructs, things that are immeasurable.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  And so that was hard for me because,

• 13:32Speaker 00

  you know, one of the things I talk about in the TED Talk is that I used, I had a a little sign in my office when I was a doctoral student in teaching that said, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist.

• 13:42Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 13:42Speaker 00

  And I loved thinking that we could live in that world. Um, now I have a sign above my study that says, if you can measure it, it's probably not that important.

• 13:49Jonathan Fields?

  I love it.

• 13:51Speaker 00

  Um.

• 13:52Jonathan Fields?

  Well, it's like the shadow side.

• 13:53Speaker 00

  It is a shadow side. Um, and so I think,

• 13:57Speaker 00

  I didn't care at that point. I just felt like I was on to something that was super important for me personally, and it resonated with me and,

• 14:08Speaker 00

  you know, what would, what else would you call it? Social adaptability? It's not, that's not what I was looking for. I was looking for wholeheartedness.

• 14:14Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And it's something that the common person?

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:18Jonathan Fields?

  Can, I mean, I'm sure there's, there's enough ambiguity so that people can kind of like say, like, this is how I feel wholeheartedly supplies in my world and my life, but there's enough universality to the term that I think people just kind of get what it's about.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's my job as a researcher. Like, one of the things, I've never really talked about this before, but I think you're interested, you'd be as, as the uncertainty person, you'd be a great person to talk to about this, that there is, one of the greatest losses I think that is happening in our world today is that academics are shamed for accessibility.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  I mean, it makes me teary eyed because it makes me think how much great information we're losing. Even whether you buy into it or if it's real or not real, that we're losing the debate and the discourse. Because to be accessible is some kind of really like albatross. It's like, if you're accessible and people understand your work, that means you're not very smart. Um, and so to me,

• 15:20Jonathan Fields?

  So basically, you're writing only for people that are in rarefied air? And if you're, if the average person on the street can understand that there's something wrong with what you're doing?

• 15:28Speaker 00

  Right, and there's, I mean, and really, there's like interesting journal articles that say, you know, the average academic journal article, the average one, not the one that makes it into the Times or something, is read by 10 people. And then I think eight of them are probably just checking to see if they're referenced in it, you know? And so to me, I had no interest for that, for this reason, it's an interesting backstory. When I did the shame research, because I'm a qualitative researcher, I would sit down like we're sitting down and collect data and talk to people about their stories. It was the first time I'd ever done research when people, when we were done with the interview, looked at me pleadingly and said, "When you figure this out, you're gonna tell me, right?" And my answer in the beginning was, "No, I'm gonna publish it in something that you'll never have access to."

• 16:11Jonathan Fields?

  Ouch.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  Right, that was my, I didn't say that, but that's what I thought, and then I thought, you know what? I'm not gonna do that anymore. You know, I don't want to, I don't want to spend my time, I mean, I still have to do it, and I probably should do it more, but I don't want to spend my time doing something that's not, in my opinion, moving people forward. And if I can't pick it up and read it, and my friends can't pick it up and read it, and I have to look up words in the thesaurus to sound smart, I'm not doing it anymore. It's not why I'm here, it's not in service of my work. And my faith is really an organizing principle in my life, and it pushes up against that value.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  So that's kind of how wholehearted, I was scared at first.

• 16:57Jonathan Fields?

  That, I would imagine you would be.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:58Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, because you're really bringing two worlds together in a way where each world probably has substantial doubt about, sort of like, the validity of the other one, and also, like you said, especially because you operate and you're on your living, like, in an academic setting. So, you know, that's gotta bring on a lot of fear. It's like, you know, am I gonna be drawn down in my profession, that am I gonna, like, just, yeah, am I gonna be still there, but I'll be the laughingstock of my profession for the rest of my career? You know, versus, is this work so powerful that it needs, it's the work that I can't not do, and it must get out?

• 17:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think it's interesting, because grounded theory in itself is very controversial, I think, in a lot of academic places, because, because you don't start with existing theories and prove and disprove them. You start from people's lived experiences. You often come up with conclusions that bump up hard against what's already established in literature. So, and I love it because Glazer and Strauss, who developed the, I think they were like spirited in terms of my approach. They said, use names that resonate with people. And so, one of the ways we measure the accuracy of our theories is resonance. Fit. Do people see themselves in their lives and their stories and the narratives that you're creating with your data? And I love that.

• 18:12Jonathan Fields?

  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by Talkiiatry. So you know that moment when you finally say, okay, I need some help? That takes courage. And then you start calling psychiatrists and hear, we're not taking new patients or our next opening is months away. Talkiiatry exists to change that. Unlike therapy only platforms, Talkiiatry is psychiatry. It's a 100% online practice where a medical provider can diagnose conditions like anxiety, ADHD, depression, and more, and prescribe medication when it's appropriate. All 800-plus clinicians are in-network with major insurers. Take a short assessment, get matched, and have your first visit in days, not months.

• 18:55Jonathan Fields?

  More than 300,000 patients have already found care through Talkiiatry. So head to talkiatry.com/goodlife to complete the short assessment and get matched with an in-network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. That's T-A-L-K-I-A-T-R-Y.com/goodlife to get matched in minutes. Talkiiatry.com/goodlife. Good Life Project is sponsored by Quince. So these days, I tend to want fewer things made well. That's how I'm thinking about gifts this year, and it's why Quince is on my list. So Quince makes elevated everyday essentials from premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and stretch denim at 50% to 80% less than similar brands. Cashmere sweaters that start at just $50.

• 19:39Jonathan Fields?

  They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. Our executive producer, Lindsay, actually just ordered their organic cotton denim chore jacket in indigo blue. Her verdict, dreamy and soft. She also grabbed- Quince's Bees Oil Wood Conditioner. It's made in the USA from beeswax and mineral oil. It's food safe and it's lovely on cutting boards and bowls. And I actually just got the yummiest button down from Quince, which is great as the weather gets cooler. So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about us, let them know it was Good Life Project. It's the best way to support the show.

• 20:25Jonathan Fields?

  Good Life Project is supported by Kachava. So I used to think being salty was reserved for bad moods and pretzels. But lately I have come to realize that a little salty edge actually makes life and especially dessert way more interesting. Any pastry chef will tell you that a pinch of salt isn't there to ruin the party. It's there to make the sweet parts just really shine, which is exactly what Kachava pulled off with their new salted caramel. First sip, I actually laughed. It's that good, rich caramel, a little salty edge, and none of the sugary drawbacks. And it's still the Kachava that I count on. Two scoops for complete nutrition with plant-based protein, fiber, greens, and so much more. No artificial flavors, colors, or sweeteners, no fillers, no nonsense.

• 21:09Jonathan Fields?

  Which if you're feeling a little salty yourself is kind of the point. Embrace your salty side. Go to kachava.com and use the code GOODLIFE for 15% off your order. That's kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code GOODLIFE. The entrepreneur in me and the writer in me looks at that model. And that's actually, that's the model that actually builds the most successful businesses. But it's the exact opposite model that most entrepreneurs start with. Most entrepreneurs get an idea for product or a service or solution, and then they go looking for a market. And then they're like, okay, who are the people that we can sell this to? And whereas, you know, rather than saying, okay, let me just reach out to a community that I feel like I want to be in service of

• 21:54Jonathan Fields?

  and have really deep, intense conversations with them. And maybe I'm part of that community. You know, so let me start with my own experience and then with the experience of people in this community and find out what are they feeling? What are they not feeling? What's the conversation that's already going on in their head? And can I build messaging and solutions around that in a way that can be, make me of further service to them? And in doing so, create... A living, a career, a business that that builds around that. And in my experience.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 22:25Jonathan Fields?

  Those are the people where not only individually do you really come alive, but those are the businesses that have profound impact in the world and that kind of catch fire. Because you're you're not trying to sell something to anybody. You're simply caring about them so deeply that you take the time to understand what they need and then just giving it to them. And so many times people don't do that. And so really, so from the business side, it's this it's this interesting overlay with what you're saying, the approach to how you research.

• 22:55Speaker 00

  I I've never thought about that until this exact second. But I love that, and I think it's exactly grounded theory. Because what's interesting, I I never thought it. Entrepreneurship, I think of, I've got some a really cool thing.

• 23:07Jonathan Fields?

  Right, exactly. Let me go find somebody who wants it.

• 23:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. But in grounded theory, there's the whole the whole thing is it's called trust and emergence is the axiom. Trust in what emerges from the data, trust in people's lived experiences and their perception of those experiences. But what you do is you the goal of grounded theory is to find out what is the main concern of a group of people you want to know about? And then your theory should explain how they're trying to continually resolve that concern. So it's very much in line.

• 23:41Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:42Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, it's it's kind of like.

• 23:44Speaker 00

  Very entrepreneurship, I like it.

• 23:45Jonathan Fields?

  No, it is. I mean, like the the really good entrepreneurs know that, you know, you come in and you you're probably going to start out, you know, you there's we're human beings. So there's no way we can start the process without certain assumptions.

• 23:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 23:56Jonathan Fields?

  You know, like they're they're just going to be there. But the most successful people will always be the ones that are open to serendipity or open to the market proving them wrong. And then listening to what the market says is right. And then deciding whether they actually want to create that or not.

• 24:10Speaker 00

  The exact same.

• 24:11Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, so it's it's got now I want to learn more about like sort of like your whole methodology.

• 24:15Speaker 00

  Now, I will I'll give you something on because it's exactly the same. And in fact, you evaluate a theory that's a grounded theory. One of the one of the the codes we live by is and it's so much in line with entrepreneurship now that you pointed this incredible thing out.

• 24:32Speaker 00

  A theory can never be as good is is only as good as its ability to work new data.

• 24:40Speaker 00

  So like a business would only be as good as its ability to address the evolving and changing needs of the market, right?

• 24:47Jonathan Fields?

  Which is where a lot of bigger companies get in huge trouble because they started and maybe they were actually really certain, they understood the pain points, the needs of a market when they started and they served that beautifully. But markets aren't stationary, you know, like things, they're living, breathing beasts that move and change and morph, especially in the last four or five years, we've seen that in a profound way. And I've talked to so many people who are past the, what you'd probably consider a class of entrepreneur, like real big established businesses, and their businesses are shrinking fast and they're just thinking, we're going under, you know, rather than, well, no, actually, all the assumptions that we built around are no longer valid. So we actually, we don't have to just keep trying to, you know, like work on that same

• 25:32Jonathan Fields?

  model. We can actually look for where the pain points in the conversations have moved to and see if we can adapt the what we do and how we do it to those new needs. A lot of people don't want to do that. They're so vested in the way things work and they are terrified. And this is, I'm so curious what you think about this also. Most people who start businesses, they start them and they accept that there's a certain amount of uncertainty and risk and fear and anxiety and all this stuff and failure. And very often it's because part of the dynamic is they don't have a whole lot to lose in the beginning. Then they build something substantial, now they do have a lot to lose. So when I was talking about like that business that now has to adapt to a whole different

• 26:15Jonathan Fields?

  thing, now that they're in a place where they don't have, there's a lot to lose if they, you know, sort of like guess wrong or they don't, they become incredibly fearful in a way that they didn't, or they're not able to move through the fear and the change and the uncertainty in a way that they were much more able to when they started a business. Really ties in, I think, with a lot of your exploration of vulnerability.

• 26:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're going to be hard pressed to get me shaking loose this parallel between business and I'm so obsessed with it now. It's so fascinating because, you know.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  The axiom again of trust in the emergence is, I think what I've seen in my experience talking to businesses and talking to not just entrepreneurs but big corporations is they don't, they don't trust in the process that brought them success.

• 27:04Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  They start to trust in the product of the process.

• 27:09Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  Right?

• 27:11Jonathan Fields?

  Yep.

• 27:12Speaker 00

  And they lose their trust for the process, which is trust in emergence, trust the people you're serving. And so the same is true with researchers. Like for me, the minute I say, I don't care what emerges from this interview with Jonathan, I've already got our theory out there in the academic literature, this has got to hold up. And the minute I shift, my work is dead.

• 27:28Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  It no longer rings true, it's not innovative, it's not exciting. And so, but Barney Glaser, one of the founders of grounded theory, calls it the drugless trip. You have to have a real, you have to have a real comfort with uncertainty and vulnerability to do the kind of research I do. You lose a lot, like I mentor a lot of doctoral students and sit on a lot of dissertations for grounded theory folks who get halfway through and think, this is too uncertain.

• 27:57Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  I want to go back to the take an existing theory, prove or disprove it with data, write it up, be done. I don't want to do, I don't want to trust in emergence and let something new and that we haven't talked about yet emerge, I don't have the stomach for it.

• 28:12Jonathan Fields?

  Nah.

• 28:13Speaker 00

  You know, and so, so for me, the vulnerability piece, and I get that because I was that person. And so...

• 28:21Jonathan Fields?

  I think we're all that person.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  We're all that person, yeah. And that's important because...

• 28:25Jonathan Fields?

  Right. It's not like, you know, I mean, maybe there are these freakish people, you know, this really thin slice of humanity that just doesn't feel it, or their brains are softwired from the beginning to process it differently. But most of us, it hurts.

• 28:37Speaker 00

  It does hurt. And you know, and to say I wasn't one of those people is exactly against like, I have the four myths of vulnerability in Darian greatly, and the first one is that it's weakness.

• 28:47Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  You know, and I define vulnerability as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure.

• 28:52Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 28:53Speaker 00

  And so I think one of the reasons we lose tolerance for it, or we don't, we can't sit with the process is because we've been raised to believe that being vulnerable and walking into a meeting with, you know, funders or whomever, or whatever your situation is and saying, I don't know.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  I mean, some of the most incredible examples that I read and include in the book are about business people who stand up in front of their leadership and say, I don't know what to do next. And you may know more than I do. I need your help. That's powerful.

• 29:32Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And that is the single most terrifying thing that I think any leader could do, but also that maybe the most powerful thing they could do simultaneously. Like you were saying, though, people think it's all, if I do that, I'm weak.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  Right. Pete Fuda, who is a leadership, he's a researcher in Australia, in Sydney, and he studies transformative leadership. And he does long case studies over five and six years studying leadership and how it transforms within an organization. And he has this great article that was in Harvard Business Review where he uses metaphors to talk about what transformative leaders share in common. And one of them is the snowball. And he tells the story of a CEO, a new CEO, who kind of came aboard and was very directive, very instructive, and things really started unraveling. And he decided to kind of risk vulnerability and stood up in front of, brought all those

• 30:34Speaker 00

  leaders together and said, I'm getting feedback that my style, the way I communicate and give you feedback, is pushing innovation down. I need your help. I need to know how to be better at this. I need to know how to work with you. And what Pete found in his research, not only in this case, but across the cultures he was studying, is that it created this huge snowball effect. If those leaders in turn felt permission to stand with their teams and say, I can't do this without you, and those people, and then it created this thing that took off through the culture. And what it shook loose was, it got so big and fast, the momentum of it, that it shook

• 31:15Speaker 00

  loose all the drag, that people that were not willing to say, I need help, I don't know, I'm in over my head. Couldn't hold on anymore in the pressure. Is that fascinating?

• 31:26Jonathan Fields?

  Nah, it's amazing. And it also really speaks to the top down. You know, like idea that it all comes from the people that are at the very tip top. You know, like if that one person, you know, like if, if, you know, have a CEO and, and she or he doesn't actually say, "Okay, I'm owning this myself."

• 31:46Jonathan Fields?

  Nobody else in our organization will own it. And the reverse is true too. You know, like same, it's not all effective. That person steps up and says, "Yeah, I don't know which way is up right now, but we're all really smart. Let's see if we can figure this out together." I mean, and it's so funny too, because I've had so many conversations. I'm sure you have also with sort of management teams, leadership people. And they're like, "Well, how do we get the people under us to buy this or to act in this way or to create in this way?" And like the first question is, "Well, are you behaving in that way or acting in that way?" Like, "No, no, no, this isn't about me."

• 32:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:19Jonathan Fields?

  It's like, "No, actually it is."

• 32:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:21Jonathan Fields?

  You know, everything that you say, and this is as a parent, you know this, right?

• 32:25Speaker 00

  That, I mean, that's.

• 32:25Jonathan Fields?

  It's like, "Well, you know, like you can't say, do this if like then you're doing something completely different." Because your kids are gonna look at you and be like, "Mm-mm."

• 32:32Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:33Jonathan Fields?

  So same thing in organizations. It's the same dynamic, but people don't see that.

• 32:37Speaker 00

  No, I think one of the things that I say that maybe pisses people off more than anything else I say, whether it's leaders, parents, is that we cannot give people what we don't have. And we can't ask people to do what we're not doing. And that makes people crazy. And I get it as a parent, especially because, you know, when I tell parents, "You can't raise a child with a greater sense of resilience than your own." You can't raise a child with more self-compassion than what you have. They're like, they get twitchy, they get crunchy and yeah. But when I tell people, "I'm not sure that you can love a child more than you love yourself," people get hostile.

• 33:19Jonathan Fields?

  Nah, I bet.

• 33:21Speaker 00

  Because people want to say, you know, "That's crazy. I love my kids way more than I love myself." And it's often the parents of very young children who say that. What's interesting to me is it's the parents of teens who say, oh, God, I get that. Because what happens is fourth, fifth grade, certainly middle school, beginning of high school, when our kids start to become us in some ways, but we see our partners and things that bug the crap out of us about our partners emerge in our kids are the things that bug us about us.

• 33:52Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 33:54Speaker 00

  That self compassion or that compassion turns to judgment. Like, what do you mean you didn't have anyone to sit with at lunch? And rather than saying, oh, God, I remember that, let's talk about that. You say, well, pull your hair back and wear some of those cute outfits I bought you. And then maybe your friends will want to sit with you. And that's your stuff.

• 34:15Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And I think we've all, it's like, you know, as you're saying this, I'm like scanning right now.

• 34:22Jonathan Fields?

  I'm like, okay, I like, because I'm pretty, you know, like compassionate, you know, like the open guy, but I'm like, I'm sure there've been so many things where I've just reacted without even realizing that I'm reacting because of a cap on my own capability to deal with my own stuff. And it's manifesting in my response to other people, like, you know, which is, um, it's not easy to own that.

• 34:43Speaker 00

  No, and I've done it. I mean, you know, it's, people say, well, we can't all be, you know, shame free all the time like you. And I'm, I think to myself, I've never been a parent and not been a shame researcher. I mean, I started just around the time my daughter was born, right before. And I've done it because

• 35:05Speaker 00

  we're human. And I think, that's why I think, you know, I talk a lot about the gifts of imperfect parenting. I think it's those moments where, I mean, I remember telling Ellen one time, she, she was doing this whole thing about, she wore a side ponytail, she came home with a different ponytail. I said, hey, what happened to your side ponytail? She said, oh, I took it out because my friends thought it looked terrible. And I said, but I thought you loved it. And she said, yeah, but, you know, they gave me a hard time. And so I went into the whole, like, you have to do what you love, not what other people think. And then five minutes later, I'm telling Steve, you've got to pull the Christmas lights out of the yard. What are my neighbors going to think? And Ellen's five feet away from me, you know? And she said, I don't understand. And I said, you understand what?

• 35:50Speaker 00

  She goes, the ponytail, the lights.

• 35:54Speaker 00

  You know, I'm like

• 35:55Jonathan Fields?

  She's keeping you honest.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm like, oh, my God. You're right. It's just rhetoric. You know, if I tell my daughter, "Your body's beautiful." You know, our value would probably be to say something like, "This is the body that God gave you, and it's strong and wonderful." And, you know, and then she walks in, and I'm using a lot of hateful self-talk about my jeans not fitting. Which one do you think matters the most? But it's the same with leaders. You know, if leaders say to teams, you know, "Hey, we want innovation, so we'll expect failure. Fail often, fail quick, clean it up and move on." But they see

• 36:39Speaker 00

  a leader scared to death of failing, scared of trying, scared of being uncertain or vulnerable. Then the message is, that other stuff is lip service. This is about perfection, and even if it stifles creativity, we can't be wrong.

• 36:54Jonathan Fields?

  Right. So one of the big things is that people perceive vulnerability as weakness.

• 36:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:59Jonathan Fields?

  And it seems like the answer is, "You gotta own the change." And you basically have to say, "Okay." But I mean, how do you do that? I mean, if you're somebody where you're, you know, let's say you're a leader, you're a parent, you're just a creator, you're an artist. You know, and you want to do something, and you're terrified of being vulnerable. You're a human being living in the world who's terrified of opening up and revealing who you are. You know, like going into the uncertainty, the risk.

• 37:28Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 37:30Jonathan Fields?

  How do you make that jump?

• 37:32Speaker 00

  Well, I think, I think the first place is, I mean, and it may be different whether you're a cognitive person or a feel-your-way-through person. But I think for those of us who think first and feel second, which would be me, I think getting clear on what vulnerability is and isn't is really important. For this reason, 12 years of research, I cannot find a single example of courage, of moral courage, spiritual courage, leadership courage. I cannot find a single example in our data of courage that was not based on sheer vulnerability. And so I think one of the things we have to do, first of all, is dispel these myths. I mean,

• 38:16Speaker 00

  And get clear in our values. I mean, for me, I don't. It doesn't hurt less when I get criticized. When I put myself out there or when you put yourself out there, people who are trying to, you know, daring greatly is from the Roosevelt quote.

• 38:28Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 38:29Speaker 00

  You know.

• 38:29Jonathan Fields?

  One of my favorite quotes, by the way. As soon as I saw the title, I was like, I know where that's from.

• 38:34Speaker 00

  You do?

• 38:34Jonathan Fields?

  Totally.

• 38:35Speaker 00

  I love that. Yeah. It's not the critic who counts. It's not the man who points at the strong man as he stumbles or how the, you know, points out how the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit goes to those of us who are in the arena, who, I mean, to totally paraphrase, getting their asses kicked sometimes, falling on our faces, failing.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  Sometimes victorious, but at least when we're failing, we're daring greatly. I think when I talk to people who've made the transition from, I really want to put these homemade journals on Etsy, but I'm really afraid to do that. I really want to ask my boss for this promotion or this raise. I really want to share this idea at the PTO meeting next week. When I asked people, where did you muster up the courage? How'd you script the courage to do this? The answer was always, I got very clear that being courageous was more important to me as a value than succeeding.

• 39:37Speaker 00

  And so to me, it comes down to an area of your work that I think is so important, really serious intention setting and a very clear values alignment.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  You know, and I think it is very necessary to have people in our lives

• 39:55Speaker 00

  who, when we dare greatly, when we're vulnerable, when we try something new, and it doesn't work out, and we come up short, who are willing to look at us and say, but you were brave.

• 40:08Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I think those people, having those people around you are so, and that's, I'm sure you've experienced the same thing. I've had so many conversations with people where they said, I don't have those people. Yeah. What do I do? Because every time I do this, like, everybody around me lines up and says, told you so, you're an idiot. You know, like, I knew you were gonna fail. And, um, which is, which is kind of interesting because to me, one of the potential great equalizers there is technology, the potential to use technology to flatten the world and find people like that. And it's not the same thing as the people who live in your neighborhood you can hug and kiss and like, just have a cup of coffee with. And it's not the same. I would love to say it is because, you know, like, I live and breathe in that world of

• 40:49Jonathan Fields?

  us. It's not. But I think it helps it to have access to a small group of people who may be dotted in, you know, five different countries, but they're deeply committed to each other and share the same values. So to me, I've seen that help people who live in a small town somewhere and are in a family where, where that approach to life is completely rejected. But I think, I think it's a very, it's a tough problem. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

• 41:20Jonathan Fields?

  This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Ah, fall, that cozy season where we swap the swimwear for sweaters and sunnies for scarves. But before the Halloween decorations are put away or Thanksgiving table has been set, there's already holly jolly music playing in the grocery store, reminding you that the year is coming to a close. Time to kick end of year into high gear. When you use Apple Card with Apple Pay, you earn 2% daily cash back on all purchases, including food, decorations, gifts, and more. Get a head start on your end of year purchases. Apply for your Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today and start using it right away with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval,

• 42:02Jonathan Fields?

  Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 42:10Jonathan Fields?

  Good Life Project is sponsored by Vinted. So here's a question that I have been sitting with. How many things in your closet were bought for, let's say, a version of you who never quite showed up? Maybe it's the tailored jacket for the dinners you were gonna go to, or someday pieces with the tag still on them. They're lovely clothes. They're just not yours anymore. That's where Vinted comes in. So Vinted is a secondhand marketplace app where everyday people sell the clothes that they're not wearing to people who actually will. Listing on Vinted is quick and simple. You take a few photos, write a short description, and you're done. Once something sells, Vinted creates the prepaid shipping label for you. There are also no seller fees on Vinted. So whatever your piece sells for, you keep.

• 42:52Jonathan Fields?

  What I love about that is how it turns letting go into something that actually feels good. You get more room, a little extra money, and maybe a closet that reflects who you are right now. So see what's hiding in your closet. You might be surprised how much you can earn with Vinted. Download the Vinted app for free and start listing with no seller fees, so you keep everything you earn. Good Life Project is sponsored by Bombas. So my wife Stephanie has been one of the great gift givers in our family. And her secret is that the best gifts often aren't the flashy ones. They're the ones that people reach for on any given day without even thinking about it. That's why so much of my list ends up at Bombas. Fuzzy sundae slippers for the friend who lives in sweatpants from November to March.

• 43:34Jonathan Fields?

  Merino wool and cashmere blend socks for anyone who runs cold. That would be me, by the way. Ski and running socks for the ones who refuse to slow down. Also me, by the way. And water-resistant suede booties. So cushy. My executive producer Lindsay actually more or less lives in hers. And here's what else makes it a good life kind of gift. For every item you purchase, Bombas donates an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased, one donated. Over 200 million donations and counting, so every gift you give is really two. So head over to bombas.com/goodlife and use the code GOODLIFE for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash goodlife. Code GOODLIFE at checkout. One of the things that...

• 44:20Jonathan Fields?

  That I look at is, I think a lot of times it's, it's, part of it is what we tell ourselves, but I think a lot of it is the questions we ask ourselves also around our ability to sort of unlock action in the face of perceived weakness and vulnerability. I think so many of us, all we focus on is what if I fail?

• 44:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 44:37Jonathan Fields?

  Rather than, um, what if I succeed?

• 44:41Speaker 00

  Right.

• 44:41Jonathan Fields?

  And what if I do nothing, which is very often the most terrifying answer of three.

• 44:46Speaker 00

  No, there's no doubt. And I mean, something you said about people who are surrounded by communities who are critical, I told you so, you were so stupid to do that. One thing that I think it's really important, and I feel ethically bound to say to people a lot of times about the work is be clear that when you start to dare greatly, when you start to be vulnerable and take chances, you are going to be holding a very uncomfortable mirror up from people.

• 45:12Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  And a lot of times, if you're surrounded by people who say, I told you so, or who are critical, it's because daring greatly, to watch someone be vulnerable and risk, to watch someone walk headlong into uncertainty is so uncomfortable for people who are not willing to do that, that they're dying to see failure and to point it out as confirmation that my way of living is okay. And the whole dotted around, like, I think there was a group of women, we call ourselves the Love Bombers. There's a group of women, they are artists, photographers, writers. I got a call one day from them, probably five, six years ago. They said, you don't know us. We know you from online. I think you read

• 45:58Speaker 00

  our blogs. We read yours. We're going to gather together on the Oregon coast. Would you like to join us? And I was like, oh, hell no. Like, that's not, you know, like, I was voted like least likely to show up with a group of hippie girls that are smoking cloves, like, and doing art. Like, I was like, no. And my husband was like, I think you might need this. I was like, are you kidding me? He said, I think you should go. And it really changed my life because, again, it was technology. And I totally agree with what you said. When I'm throwing up and sick, these are not the people who hold my hair back. They're not the people who bring the casseroles over during hard times. But they are a group of people who, where we made agreement that we would be vulnerable and brave together. And that we would create a space for each other where we never had to shrink.

• 46:44Speaker 00

  When we were really proud of what we were doing, our successes. And we'd never have to puff up when we were feeling small and ashamed. That we were all going to be brave together and take our licks and, you know, and so I think that's really important.

• 47:00Speaker 00

  It was life changing for me. And so I think if you are in a small town, I think World Domination Summit.

• 47:05Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, great example.

• 47:07Speaker 00

  I mean.

• 47:07Jonathan Fields?

  I think a lot of people go to that just because they fly from all over the world because they can't find those people. And it's like the one time every year where they can like be on the ground with like minded people. And then they take that with them. I think a lot of things can start out digitally.

• 47:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:24Jonathan Fields?

  And then it'll, it stays in sort of this ethereal kind of supportive level.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:28Jonathan Fields?

  But then you can meet somebody and spend three days with them. And then when you leave, it's a very different dynamic.

• 47:32Speaker 00

  It's a totally different, yeah. I mean, and I think, yeah, like I would have never, I don't think I've ever done, I know before or since anything like I, my talk at Pearl Domination. Like I would have never have tried something so crazy and out there had I not been, you know, around people who were there to explore how brave am I willing to be?

• 47:54Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 47:55Speaker 00

  You know, and so I do think there's something about that. I think one of the other myths about vulnerability that you pointed, that you touched on was the idea that we can go it alone.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  You know, that's still even.

• 48:12Speaker 00

  Even in a world where people are pretty awake and conscious about connection. It's still a very highly regarded ideal.

• 48:23Speaker 00

  You know, this is where I quote Whitesnake in the book, you know, like.

• 48:26Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 48:26Speaker 00

  Here I go again on my own. Like we all want to.

• 48:28Jonathan Fields?

  Anyway, I love your case to music as like an old Rush, you know, like.

• 48:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:33Jonathan Fields?

  Fanatic.

• 48:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm a Rush fanatic too. And so that's one thing that's so fun about the book. People are like, mostly guys were like, dude, you quoted Rush.

• 48:42Jonathan Fields?

  I was like. The ultimate philosopher there.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  Neil Peart.

• 48:46Jonathan Fields?

  I know.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  World peace, I think he could bring world peace.

• 48:49Jonathan Fields?

  I think so.

• 48:52Speaker 00

  But, uh, no, I think this idea that we can go it alone and that I think we need people not only to support us, but I think we need people like to try on vulnerability with, to try it on and say, "Hey, Jonathan, it's Pernay, and I think I want to do this." I did that with Chris, going back to WDS, World by Nations, on that, like, the night of rehearsals.

• 49:12Jonathan Fields?

  I was there.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  You know, I said, "I'm seriously thinking about closing by doing a duet with you from the Glee version of a Journey song." And he was like, "Uh, no." And his wife was like, "Yeah, there's no way. He said we're gonna do that." And I'm like, "Okay," then I thought, "Okay, good." I was like, "Okay," so I just kind of moved away from it. And then I hear him, like, from the backstage go, "But you are writing a book called Daring Greatly, so are you gonna do it or not?" And he's like, "I'll do it if you do it." And, but that's what I mean by trying it on, because there was no doubt, I was seriously afraid. I thought it would, I put it at best 50/50 that anyone else would sing along.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  And I thought, "Are you gonna be okay if it's just you and me the whole time?" And Chris goes, "It's gonna be a long song if that happens." And I'm like, "Well, I'll tell the guys, the AV guys, to fade out."

• 50:01Speaker 00

  But it was a thousand people.

• 50:03Jonathan Fields?

  Uh huh.

• 50:04Speaker 00

  Standing on their chairs, you know, in the aisles, playing their guitar. It was fun, and so...

• 50:08Jonathan Fields?

  And it turned into this, an extraordinary moment.

• 50:12Speaker 00

  It was one of the best moments of my life. I mean, it was...

• 50:17Jonathan Fields?

  And I think, I mean, that's part of the message, right? Is that, that's what you miss out on, when you're not willing to go to that place.

• 50:24Speaker 00

  It is, and I read it, you know, everyone, you know, because I still get, you know, comments from people that were like, "Don't stop believing," or "Suck it," you know, like, I still get those. But, um, every now and then there'll be a comment like, "That's the cheesiest thing I've ever heard of." And...

• 50:43Speaker 00

  It doesn't, I feel total neutrality about that, not even the need to defend it or anything. Cause my thought was, you weren't there, cause it was from people who weren't there. You didn't share that with us, and that's okay.

• 50:55Jonathan Fields?

  Man.

• 50:56Speaker 00

  Um, because if you were there, it was fun. You know, and we sang together like we were 13 in the back of a car, sneaking out on a Friday night. Yeah, so, um, so, but I think you have to have a tribe to try on that stuff with.

• 51:12Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I totally agree. It's, it makes, it's, it's, I, it's almost impossible for a lot of, not everybody. I think some people are kind of wired, you know, like.

• 51:20Speaker 00

  I think so too, yeah.

• 51:22Jonathan Fields?

  But I don't think that's most people.

• 51:24Speaker 00

  I don't, and I, you know, I think the other thing that's important about that tribe that has really shifted in for me in the last year is I no longer really even, I have no intake at all of any feedback or criticism from anyone who's not in the arena.

• 51:42Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  So unless you are in your own capacity, in your own world, in your own life, getting your ass kicked on occasion, I'm not interested in what you have to share with me about my work.

• 51:54Jonathan Fields?

  What flipped that switch?

• 51:58Speaker 00

  A profound respect for myself and other people who are out there trying to do work and trying to walk into uncertainty and vulnerability and are really risking.

• 52:14Speaker 00

  Because it is so easy to make a life and a career out of sitting in the bleachers and making fun of people and putting them down. And so I think a profound respect for those of us who are out there. And what I realized too, in my own life, is the people who are doing that, who are in their own arena, I don't care what it is. You don't have to be a writer or speaking in public. I don't care if you're a teacher, you know, like my sisters are teachers, you know? In my opinion, they walk in the arena every morning at 7:30. Right. Right. And so what I have found, not only as my personal life, but professionally,

• 52:56Speaker 00

  is that people who are in the arena and who are showing up and letting themselves be seen, give feedback that is far more constructive and far more helpful and mindful about what people can hear and not hear. And I mean, and I love, I mean, I'm an academic at heart, so I love debate and discourse. I love it when people email me and say, saw your talk, parts of it I liked, but you were completely remiss in not mentioning these three areas of the literature. How can you talk about vulnerability without quoting so and so about closeness or something? I love that. That makes me better. It makes my work better. Right. People who make fun of me, or make fun of other people, or say hateful things,

• 53:37Speaker 00

  people who say, I feel sorry for your kids, you know, people who say, if I looked like you, I'd embrace imperfection too, that those kinds of comments that you get, you know, I just, I hate to get binary because it's not, it's who I'm trying not to be, but I'm still that person in some ways. And I really do believe you're either making the world a better place, or you're making it a worse place. I don't feel like there's a lot of neutrality. And that's probably a little hard ass line to take. I don't want to sound like you're either with us or against us, not my favorite quote or, you know, perspective.

• 54:21Speaker 00

  But I do feel like every day, our choices have a huge impact on people.

• 54:29Speaker 00

  And

• 54:33Speaker 00

  someone told me, this could be urban legend, I don't know, maybe you know, but I heard that Oprah Winfrey has this quote on her door, but it's a quote that I love, and it says, you're responsible for the energy you bring into this room. And I think people are responsible for the energy they put in the world. And a fake avatar and a fake name and leaving a comment somewhere is not benign.

• 54:58Speaker 00

  Because I'll keep putting my work out there. And you will probably keep putting your work out there. And several people we know will probably keep. But there are people who have amazing gifts, who could make the world an incredibly better place, who won't put their work out there for that reason. Yeah.

• 55:19Speaker 00

  You know, um, and that's a loss. And whether we know what that work was or not, we miss it and grieve it every day. There are songs that we need to hear. There are stories that need to be heard. There's work that needs to be seen. There's ideas that need to be implemented. Um, that we'll never see or know because there's so many people out there who are so reflexively cynical and critical and mean spirited. I don't like it.

• 55:48Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 55:49Speaker 00

  Do you like it?

• 55:50Jonathan Fields?

  You know, it's something that I deal with every single day in my life. First thing I do when I wake up in the morning is I roll out of bed and I sit and I meditate for 25 minutes. And part of that is because it helps me enter every day with that sense of equanimity. Um, and the ability to, when needed, um, zoom the lens out more and look down on myself and, and get a better sense for when I'm reacting or responding with deliberation and intelligence. It's still a brutally hard thing for me to do because I'm an emotional person. Um, and I, and, and behind, because I operate so much of the time as a writer

• 56:29Jonathan Fields?

  and behind the veil of anonymity, um, that a lot of people had that you were describing in the online world, I get attacked. Um, and I just say, I'm, I'm, I'm always saying to myself, would this person stand in front of me in a room with my kid next to me and say the same thing?

• 56:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 56:46Jonathan Fields?

  And, and I've got to believe that the answer would be no. I want to believe the answer would be no, because I want to have that level of faith in humanity. But, um, sometimes I, but it, it's not easy. And I know, to your point, I know I've had so many conversations with people who do not bring their art and their soul and their heart to the world. Um, because they know that there are people out there who will attack them um, in very, very mean, um, vindictive, spiteful ways. And part of, I guess, my exploration has been, to the point that you were making before,

• 57:28Jonathan Fields?

  I've always been fascinated with the phenomenon of people who are even within your close inner circle, your family, your closest friends, either publicly or secretly rallying to see you fail.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:39Jonathan Fields?

  Um, and I think a lot of what, so I try and reframe, I try and understand, you know? Um, I once heard, you know, maybe it was something that I read or an interview that I saw with the Dalai Lama,

• 57:53Jonathan Fields?

  where they asked him what his greatest fear was, and his greatest fear was losing compassion to the Chinese. It blew my mind. You know, and I'm just thinking to myself, if, if I can-

• 58:02Speaker 00

  Oh, man.

• 58:04Jonathan Fields?

  If I can try and practice compassion, meditating compassion on a daily level, in a way that tries to allow me to step in the shoes of that person who is being this way towards me or towards someone I love,

• 58:17Jonathan Fields?

  maybe that's the beginning for me. But it doesn't make me okay with it. I would love to say it does. I would love to say I just, I'm good. I meditate, I do my mindfulness, and I experience it, and then I let it go. But, but I don't. I'm human. You know, and it hurts. But, um,

• 58:36Jonathan Fields?

  far better that-

• 58:38Speaker 00

  Ow.

• 58:39Jonathan Fields?

  -than living in the great twilight that knows neither victory nor success.

• 58:43Speaker 00

  But I think

• 58:46Speaker 00

  that's the thing. I think I've seen the pain, and talked to people about the pain of having the anonymous critic, but also having the family who's rallying for failure. To have the partner who's just chomping on the bit to say, "I told you so." To have the children who are looking at you with disappointment. You know, but I don't think I've ever seen, the greatest pain I've ever seen in my work has, is from people who have spent their lives on the outside of the arena, wondering, what would have, what would have happened had I shown up? That's a pain that, to me, maybe it's because I'm, I'm 46, has become

• 59:32Speaker 00

  a far greater fear of mine than having to dodge some hurt, you know, some hurt feelings sometimes and, um,

• 59:43Speaker 00

  yeah, the what if, what if I would have shown up and have been seen?

• 59:47Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and I'm in the same place, and same age, by the way.

• 59:51Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 59:51Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, me too.

• 59:53Speaker 00

  I wish you'd be back for a lot of our money.

• 59:54Jonathan Fields?

  One final question as we wrap this up. So the name of this project is called The Good Life Project, and, um, so when I, when you hear that phrase, or if I ask you the question, to you, what does it mean to live a good life? What comes up?

• 1:00:08Speaker 00

  Gratitude.

• 1:00:11Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:21Speaker 00

  I think for me,

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  a good life is one... A good life happens when you stop and are grateful for the ordinary moments that so many of us

• 1:00:39Speaker 00

  just steamroll over to try to find those extraordinary moments. And so to me, my good life is soccer practice and carpool line and tech-ins and date night. And that's a good life for me. I mean, and

• 1:01:02Speaker 00

  and knowing that it's good and acknowledging and stopping that it's good and saying, this is good.

• 1:01:08Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm, I love that.

• 1:01:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Jonathan Fields?

  Thanks for hanging out.

• 1:01:13Jonathan Fields?

  Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet, you'll also love the conversation we had with Elizabeth Gilbert about bringing your whole self to your life. You'll find a link to Liz's episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez, Christopher Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelley Dell for her research on this episode. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did, since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it?

• 1:01:56Jonathan Fields?

  Maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better. So we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen, then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered. Because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

• 1:02:50Jonathan Fields?

  Today's episode is sponsored by NerdWallet Wealth Partners. Are you on track for financial independence? If you're on track, the same way you're getting back to the gym, as in, maybe next year, then this one's for you. NerdWallet Wealth Partners offers free tools for high earners who'd like an actual answer instead of a vibe, like their calculator that estimates if you're on track for financial independence. Plug in a few numbers to see how your savings path may support your goals. Think of it as a fitness test that you can take sitting down. Or their wealth building checklist for high earners. It's a step-by-step guide for prioritizing your dollars once you're making six figures. And if you still have questions, you can connect with one of their financial advisors who specializes in working with high earners in their 30s and 40s. Good news, this is one workout you can actually finish.

• 1:03:34Jonathan Fields?

  Find out more at nerdwalletwealthpartners.com/good. NerdWallet Wealth Partners LLC is an SEC-registered investment advisor. Registration as an investment advisor does not imply a certain level of skill or training, nor does it constitute an endorsement by any securities regulator. Please see nerdwalletwealthpartners.com for disclosures and important information.

• 1:03:55Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the Headline Hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 1:04:28Speaker 04

  There's one thing that will forever change the way you sleep, and it's the softest 100% organic cotton bedding from Boll & Branch. You'll fall asleep faster, wrapped in the most luxurious comfort. You'll never sleep hot again with airy blankets, cloud-like duvets, and breathable sheets. You'll experience pure comfort on night one, and feel your bedding get softer with every wash. Discover the difference with 15% off your first order at bollandbranch.com with code BUTTERY. Exclusions apply. See site for details. Knows that holiday math can be complicated.

• 1:05:00Speaker 05

  OK, let's see. We got the four kids, four gifts each, six teacher gifts. Wait, oh, what did we get? And Sandy and the dogs. Oh, can't forget the dogs.

• 1:05:11Speaker 04

  Know what doesn't need math? Simplicity Plan from Verizon. One plan, one price. Just $30 a line per month for you or the whole family. The holidays are complicated. Shopping our best deals and switching to Verizon is simple. For new customers, $30 per line includes autopay and switch discount. Additional taxes, fees, and terms apply.