The Caregiving Conversation Everyone Postpones Until It's Too Late.

Here is something most people never see coming: the hardest part of caring for an aging parent is not the logistics. It is the grief. The grief for who your parent used to be, for the life you thought you would be living by now, and for the version of yourself that is quietly disappearing inside a role you never planned to fill. Couple that with being there for kids, even adult kids, and it can feel like a lot. Candace Dellacona is a New York City estate attorney known as "a family's lawyer," advising families, athletes, and entertainers on estate planning, asset protection, and the full arc of what it takes to navigate a family through its most vulnerable seasons. Not just the logistics, but also the many, more nuanced shifts in identity, relationships, and responsibilities. She is also a member of the sandwich generation herself, which is what led her to launch The Sandwich Generation Survival Guide podcast https://pod.link/1687970739. She brings both the legal expertise and the lived experience to this conversation. What you will explore in this conversation: Why the sandwich generation is far broader than you think, and why it applies to you even if your parents are healthy right now, or your kids are grownThe four shifts that happen inside you during a caregiving season, identity, ownership, grief, and loneliness, and why we almost never talk about themWhy the conversations about aging, death, and documents are almost always saved for the worst possible moment, and how to have them earlier in a way that actually feels like loveThe three-person team that can change everything, and what each one actually doesThe unexpected beauty that enters the equation in a caregiving season, the reconciliation, the closeness, the chance to usher someone you love through If you have a parent who is still healthy and you have never had a real conversation about what happens if that changes, this one is for you. You can find Candace at: Website https://www.sandwichgenerationlaw.com/ | The Sandwich Generation Survival Guide Podcast https://pod.link/1687970739 | LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/candacedellacona/ | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/sandwich-generation-caregiving-midlife-candace-dellacona Next week, I am sitting down with Dr. Joshua Coleman, a psychologist who has spent years studying something that is reshaping American families in ways most of us have not fully reckoned with: family estrangement. Why it is rising, what is actually driving it, and what to do if you are on either side of it. Be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts so you do not miss it. Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the Wheel https://jonathanfields.substack.com/aboutVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jonathan Fields?

  So there's this phrase, the sandwiched generation. You're caring for aging parents and kids, even adult kids, all at once. It can be challenging, but also empowering and beautiful, especially if you have the clarity, the tools and support needed to turn it into something that's not just always hard, but also in some ways, maybe even a little bit transformational. In today's conversation, you'll discover the four critical shifts that define a two-way caregiving season and why logistics are actually the easiest part. You'll learn about the conversation that almost no one has before a crisis arise that you really have to have for this to go smoothly. We'll talk about the three people who can change everything when you stop trying to

• 0:44Jonathan Fields?

  navigate this alone and the unexpected beauty that enters a season that nobody tells you about. Our guide is acclaimed New York City estate attorney, podcast host and sandwiched generation member herself, Candace Delacan. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project and we'll jump right in there after the short break.

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• 2:14Jonathan Fields?

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• 2:59Jonathan Fields?

  Peak season doesn't wait, and neither should you. Get ahead of it today with ShipStation and get 60 days free at shipstation.com with the code GOODLIFE. That's shipstation.com code GOODLIFE. Taxes and fees apply. The data on the impact, and you could argue the burden of what's become known as the sandwich generation, is pretty staggering. Last year, ARPA came out with a report that said there are about 63 million caregivers just in the US. Almost 1 in 3 are members of the sandwich generation. 3 in 5 are women, average age 51. About half are mothers in the sandwich generation who say they've already left a job because

• 3:43Jonathan Fields?

  of caregiving. And then there's this other staggering number. The Urban Institute put out this number that said the average lifetime income loss is at nearly $300,000. And then you have loneliness piled on top of that. And women are significantly more likely to report these feelings. These are the stats, but these are people who you have been working with, advising on multiple levels for years now. What does this look like on a lived, day-to-day basis? Paint that picture for me.

• 4:21Speaker 06

  In addition to meeting with people in the sandwich generation, I am one. I think an important part of the dialogue around the sandwich generation is much more related to sort of who the person is as it relates to those they're caring for and the way that the lines have become incredibly blurred for the person who's sort of in the middle in the sandwich. It's a much deeper and greater issue than just the logistics of providing the care. It's truly who you are while you're providing the care.

• 5:03Speaker 06

  And the conflation between being a caregiver to perhaps a younger generation, your children or whomever your younger loved ones are, and the older generation, whether that's parents or in my case, an uncle, and trying to not lose yourself in the process. And I think it is further complicated by the fact that not only is the sandwich generation member going through kind of an identity crisis over a period of time, all the people that they're caring for, they're also having to redefine who they are in very fundamental ways and deal with all of the feelings that go along with that.

• 5:49Jonathan Fields?

  So we've used this phrase, sandwich generation, and some people probably get it just intuitively. But who is the sandwich generation?

• 5:57Speaker 06

  The statistics are very sort of startling, as you point out, but I think that what gets lost in the statistics, you're talking about generally a demographic, an age range. I think the sandwich generation is really anyone that feels pushed and pulled between providing care to someone and not losing themselves in the process. So for example, if you look at the actual demographics, it's most women in the middle 30s to their middle 50s.

• 6:35Speaker 06

  But then if you take a look, for example, at a group of young professional athletes who in their family are the ones with the resources, they also are in the sandwich generation because they are sort of sought after within their family unit to provide and share the money and those resources. So I think we have to sort of expand our idea of what the sandwich generation is. It really kind of refers to a season in life. For some people, it's a longer season. For some, it's shorter. But I also think

• 7:15Speaker 06

  it's important to allow yourself, if you don't fit into that cookie cutter category, that you can still feel the pressure and not have the same level of traditional, if you will, obligations.

• 7:32Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm. So if somebody comes into you and they are, they are a sandwich generationer on a very basic visceral lived level, what are they talking to you about? What are they experiencing on a day-to-day, hour-by-hour basis that they're exploring, grappling with, struggling with, feeling the weight of?

• 7:54Speaker 06

  What I see most often when people come into my office is the new sort of introduction of the need coming from the older generation of their time and the request starting. Now sometimes that can start with a health event where an aging family member has had a diagnosis or a fall and life as the sandwich generation member knows it changes significantly, sometimes because the older generation could have been helping them raise their children or provide childcare or provide the great advice. And perhaps they're not in a position anymore to provide that advice.

• 8:35Jonathan Fields?

  What you're bringing up is another, is something that I don't hear talked about a lot, which is this notion that, that maybe actually the older generation was really helping you just manage getting through each day. And they're, they're decreasingly able to do that. So it's not just.

• 8:51Jonathan Fields?

  It's not just the burden of sort of like managing up and down at the same time. It's also, it's the loss of potentially help, of assistance that was really deeply appreciated and needed.

• 9:07Speaker 06

  That's exactly right. I mean, if you look at sort of what's going on in our economy, the cost of childcare is expensive, as it should be, right? And often people look to grandparents to fill that role. And so if a grandparent is providing the help that's needed that would otherwise have to be paid for, and now all of a sudden the grandparent can both not help you and also need care themselves, it can really feel like you've been walloped.

• 9:39Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I could totally see that. You know, it occurs to me also, as you're describing this, that this is often a season of life that tends to overlap for many people with a season of striving towards some level of financial stability.

• 9:54Speaker 06

  I think, yes, we absolutely see it. And I think what's happening with our generation is that we're not planning for taking on the added responsibility of caregiving. Because most of us don't start that conversation with our aging loved one until something's happened, until there's some kind of trigger. So all these other life events, having a baby, buying your first house, these are all things we plan for. I don't know if it's because it's our American culture where we don't focus necessarily on aging and they're such a priority and a celebration of youth and new life and all of those things,

• 10:38Speaker 06

  that we are sort of ignoring or willfully and blindly going into this phase in our life that can be challenging and expensive. But the conversations are not happening at the rate they should.

• 10:51Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, for sure. Let's get a little bit detailed here. So somebody's joining us, let's say, and they're finding themselves in this position. They are squarely in the middle of the sandwich generation. Most people, I would assume, picture the season as like the front and center is this is a logistics problem, schedules, doctors, money, locations, room, a to do list that's just kind of perpetually too long. But what I'm hearing you describe is something also much bigger underneath it all. You have a really interesting model also. And it's this notion that this is not just a logistics management issue, but there are these four other key shifts or qualities that really enter this season of life. Take me into this.

• 11:34Speaker 06

  I want to start by saying it is different for everyone. Your season of the sandwich is not going to be the same as mine. However, I think one of the things that I always tell my peers going through it, or those who listen to my podcast, is you have to first identify yourself as a caregiver. And a lot of people say, well, if you're thinking about this as an identity crisis, why would you want to front and center say, I'm a caregiver? And I would say the first reason is because it opens up resources.

• 12:16Speaker 06

  It opens up resources to you, either other people sharing their experience, or other organizations saying, now that we know what you are, here are the ways that we can help you. So identifying yourself as a caregiver is always step number one. None of us are one thing. We are many things. I'm a lawyer. I'm a parent. I'm a partner. I'm a daughter. So we're not taking on the one role as caretaker to the exclusion of all of our other roles. I think that's really important to think about.

• 12:55Speaker 06

  And how we find a way to feel permission to be who we are still while also being a caregiver. I think the one thing that you said about grief too is very important because it's the common thread through all of this. You're grieving not only the aging loved one and you're watching someone who, if it were a parent, maybe was a larger than life figure, was your touchstone, was somebody who could provide you advice and maybe they are no longer that person. You're also grieving the fact that maybe you don't feel as though you're the same

• 13:38Speaker 06

  daughter that you were. In my case, I was a caretaker for my uncle who lived here in New York City. He was gay and single, didn't have a traditional quote unquote family. And I felt like I was failing at all of the roles and the grief attached to that. Never feeling like you were a hundred percent in any of the roles that you were expected to fill.

• 14:06Jonathan Fields?

  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

• 14:10Jonathan Fields?

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• 16:09Jonathan Fields?

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• 17:36Jonathan Fields?

  I wonder if you also see part of the grief is the loss of the life you thought you would be living during this particular season. You know, you hit your 50s, let's say.

• 17:53Jonathan Fields?

  And there's a certain expectation, I've worked really hard. Maybe you assume that your parents would just be okay and healthy and not need extra care. And you could just kind of like largely live your life the way that you expected. And then we get there and we realize this is actually just not reality.

• 18:13Speaker 06

  I think you're right. I think when you think about the time in which particularly as women, the caregiving role really sort of takes shape is often at the peak of our career, the peak of our professional life. We're no longer sort of a novice or a newbie in whatever industry we're in. Because let's face it, most of us work. Most of us have some kind of vocation, occupation. So whatever that is, you're hitting your stride. And then a wrench is thrown in and mom or dad had a stroke. And you're trying to get people to rehab appointments. And, you know, doctors and prescriptions getting filled and making sure a home care attendant shows up.

• 18:57Speaker 06

  And so you're at the peak of the, the, the point of your professional life. And you're stymied again, right? So in the beginning, we're stymied because we don't know enough. And we're just starting out in our career and we're trying to get our feet below us and find our balance. And when we do, the rug is pulled out.

• 19:17Jonathan Fields?

  And as we talked about earlier, the burden of caregiving in multiple different directions simultaneously at one time does generally fall more often on women. And that stat that, that we shared earlier, like that the estimated loss in income due to withdrawing from working is averages close to $300,000, which is staggering.

• 19:45Speaker 06

  It is staggering. And I also think it doesn't capture. The lost opportunity of income. So that statistic refers to women actually having to leave an occupation. If you think about it, Jonathan, how about all of the women that have had to forego taking on additional responsibilities or promotions or even being considered for those jobs?

• 20:10Jonathan Fields?

  Right, I mean, it's, it's your, you know, two years from partnership and all of a sudden you find yourself having to pull back to a, you know, like two thirds schedule. At a time where in theory, like, you know, if you had all the freedom that you wanted, you would be working incredibly hard and showing up and taking on more things to really show that you've done the work. There are a lot of smaller things that probably are not in those statistics that remove us from eligibility for opportunity that is not measured.

• 20:41Speaker 06

  Exactly, and I think that as women, we've worked really hard to be counted and to take part and be part of the dialogue. And because of the way our society sees us as caretakers naturally, and because we do want to care, because we are mothers, we are daughters, and generally speaking, when it comes to roles, that is the role we're all filling. It's really hard to say no. But the stress then associated with that, because it's also not the actual tasks, Jonathan, it's the mental space.

• 21:23Speaker 06

  It's the constant juggling and the thought that goes into it to actually execute the plan, right? So the other part of this is the mental health piece and the quote unquote overwhelm that we feel just by being in this role.

• 21:44Jonathan Fields?

  Do you see this show up in the form of loneliness in an unmeaningful way? Because, you know, you would say, well, in theory, I'm now interacting with more people than ever before, and I'm being looked to by more people than ever before. But I would imagine also that you could still feel very alone in the role that you've assumed.

• 22:04Speaker 06

  You know, loneliness is absolutely one of the sort of emotions that is identified pretty universally among those of us in the sandwich because we feel overwhelmed and we feel, as we pointed out, grief for who we were and what our life should be or what we thought it should be. And yet, you love the person that you're providing the care to. So to complain about it to anyone else listening, it sounds terrible, right? And so I think what happens is we keep it all in for fear of sort of looking bad to the

• 22:49Speaker 06

  outside world. And it can be really lonely not getting those feelings out and saying how we actually feel for fear of people judging us and thinking, well, you're not a good daughter, or you're not a good mom, you're not a good partner. So, holding all of those emotions in can really cause the loneliness. You become an island.

• 23:14Jonathan Fields?

  I would imagine it becomes really important to find the people in your life where you can have those open, honest, vulnerable conversations and feel seen and supported. That's one set of conversations. There's another set of conversations that I think are really important for us to talk about. The critical conversations that need to be had, often with parents or the older folks that we're caring for, but rarely ever are had, or with siblings about like, what are we going to do if and when or how? The ones almost no person listening or watching has probably had. What are those conversations?

• 23:54Jonathan Fields?

  And why, why are these conversations so hard for us to have?

• 24:01Speaker 06

  There are a few reasons. I think when there is a diagnosis, Jonathan, and there's a health event, one would think that would be the most organic and natural time to have a conversation about what's next, what should we do, what do you want? But because we love the person that we might be caring for, providing the care to, we often find ourselves in the role of cheerleader. So for example, you have a loved one that's diagnosed with cancer and it's scary and they're dealing with doctors and tests and exams. They're facing their own mortality. They're facing perhaps their own disability.

• 24:45Speaker 06

  It's not so easy as an adult child to raise your hand and say, let's talk about when you're gonna die. Let's talk about that. Your role is to be, we got this. You know, even when you think about the context of, you know, fighting cancer, for example, it's this front of being positive and having a good mindset and in a battle. So to then flip the switch and say, yeah, I mean, I believe you're gonna be okay, but let's talk about when you're not is really hard to do. I think the other thing is, none of us really believe we're gonna die. And, and that's the other faction, right? Even when faced with our own mortality, we know intellectually

• 25:27Speaker 06

  that everyone's going to die, but there is sort of a collective denial about our own mortality, our own fallibility, the fact that we will all get older and age and require care. And then let's throw in family dynamics, right? And not everybody has the ideal relationship with their parents or their siblings. And so when something like aging happens or a health event happens, no one is their best self. So that's the time you're gonna have the conversation that's no one wants to have. It's really, really hard. So my best advice is,

• 26:10Speaker 06

  It's not one conversation, guys. It can be a series of conversations over time. So you don't have to tackle it all on Tuesday at six o'clock when you sit down for dinner and you invite mom and dad over to talk about whether or not they should move into an assisted living facility. I think these conversations should happen over time. And the trigger for the conversation could be any number of things. But it's got to start from a place of love and a place of concern, not of judgment, not of fear, and hopefully not during a time of crisis.

• 26:48Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and that last part, I think, is just, is really important because very few of us are at our best in those moments, you know? But if you can create the safety and the stillness and the openness to start to have these conversations, how do I want to be treated? Like, what decisions do I want to have made, you know, like, on my behalf if I'm not easily able to make them? Like, what do I want the future to look like and not look like? Incredibly difficult things to talk about. But I would imagine, I imagine you've seen this much more doable to do in a more rational and even keeled way long before there's a crisis where these things are real and imminent

• 27:32Jonathan Fields?

  than in the actual moment of.

• 27:35Speaker 06

  Absolutely. Having the luxury of time gives you more options. So if you think about the house being on fire, sometimes we can put the fire out. Sometimes we can save the house, we can save the structure. But often, there's a lot of rebuilding that has to be done, and it might not look exactly the same. Whereas if you have a sprinkler system that is ready to go the moment smoke starts, you know that everything is going to be okay. So the luxury of time does give you more options, number one. And number two, the conversation can be one of empowerment as opposed to...

• 28:11Speaker 06

  Tell me, you know, when I can take over your checkbook. Instead, it's mom, dad, aunt, uncle. Tell me who you want to be in charge so that when it does happen, if it does happen, the people that you've chosen to be in charge are the ones in charge, whether that's a healthcare decision or a financial decision. Because those are also very, you know, different skills. And so, thinking about the people that you want in place to make healthcare decisions could be very different than the person that you want in place to make financial decisions. And don't you want to be the one choosing the people?

• 28:48Jonathan Fields?

  Do you see the dynamic where it's actually aging parents who actually really do want to have this conversation? And the kids want nothing to do with it because they, you don't want to accept your, your parents mortality?

• 29:02Speaker 06

  I do see that. I think it depends on what the parent's life experience has been. I think when I see that most often, Jonathan, is when they had gone through it with their own parents. And they know how it feels to be on the other side. And, you know, when we're parents, we always think about our kids. No matter if our kids are eight or 28 or 48, you want to make it easier for your children than you had it. So, the parents that are willing to sort of enter into a dialogue related to these long-term care decisions are the ones that generally didn't have their own parents in a, in a position to be prepared.

• 29:46Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and so they know the pain of being in that position.

• 29:50Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 29:51Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, so the, the blessing of time is also in part, you have more, a longer window to sit with that and to have conversations and to negotiate and to, whatever it is that you may do and to, to find common ground, rather than everybody sits down in a room for four hours on a Saturday, like in an urgent time, and you're trying to actually all find a way to be okay and get what you need from this moment in, in a ridiculously short amount of time.

• 30:19Speaker 06

  It's so true. I think if you reflect in your own family structure or friends that have lots of siblings, rarely are the siblings so similar that they would.

• 30:35Speaker 06

  Approach any problem similarly. So everyone has a different lens in which they're seeing that situation. And then you add to it, every sibling has a different relationship with their parent. And because of that, they're going to respond differently, react differently. And so having lead time, as you put it, to allow everyone to kind of settle into those decisions. Cause the other part of this, and I'm going to go back to it, is identity. We're all shifting our identity within the family unit during this time too. Right?

• 31:14Speaker 06

  So a child, quote unquote, adult child is perhaps taking a more authoritative role, a management role, where they normally look to their parent to take on that role. So you're thinking about a healthcare issue, anticipatory grief of losing the person, fulfilling a different role within the family structure. You know, you're not the goofy younger brother anymore. You happen to be an accountant who actually knows quite a bit about money. And so you're going to have to get your sister, your older sister, who's always bossed you around, to listen to you about why it's important that the financial advisor be involved. Right? So you're, you have a time of crisis and you have all of these identities sort of

• 31:58Speaker 06

  shifting and morphing in real time. And then you add to it spouses, because they are also living in the houses with those siblings and they have opinions and their own family experiences are bleeding into the advice that they're providing to your brother or your sister. So it's a recipe for family conflict.

• 32:19Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm, I would imagine, especially because, you know, if you have, if you have two siblings, so you've got three kids, right? Each one of those kids is going to have a very different relationship with the parents. With all of like, all of the good and oftentimes all of the bad and the struggle and the distance, that all has to be, it all gets folded into these decisions. You know, like, maybe one of you has a fantastic relationship with the parents. You've made peace with them. They've made peace with you. You understand them really well. And the other's been estranged for years. And, and like, before they can make any decisions, what they either want nothing to do with it, or they're like, I need, I need to actually figure out how

• 33:01Jonathan Fields?

  to reconcile before I can actually like, let any of this move forward. I can't even think about anything. So it's gotta be so complex in these moments. I'm wondering also, we're not kids. You know, like, if you're in the middle, you're the sandwich caregiver. You're caring for aging parents, or people who are in your care who are older, even if it's not your parents. And maybe you also have kids who are younger, or in their twenties or in their thirties, who deeply love these folks also. So there's a whole different set of conversations that you're going to need to and probably want to have with them, which is a completely different layer of context and emotion and navigation.

• 33:44Speaker 06

  It is. And if you think about it, Jonathan, most of our parenting comes into play through modeling, through our own behavior, rather than our words. And how you react and act in those incredibly stressful and crisis-driven situations are being observed by these humans that you're doing your best to raise. And so you're trying to be present as a parent and still be there for them while they are witnessing perhaps, you know, the, the loss of capacity, let's say. And

• 34:25Speaker 06

  The grief that goes along with that and also not having your undivided attention as the parent. And often, the children that are involved in the sandwich, if you will, are having to be more independent than perhaps they would have otherwise because your attention is now needed 10%, 15%, 20% of the time to advocate for your mom or your dad.

• 34:53Jonathan Fields?

  Talk to me then about, because if you're joining us and you're kind of, you're either seeing this coming, or maybe you're in this moment right now and you're not along saying, yeah, I feel all of this. Or you just, you know, you're at a point where like, at some point, we're all going to be in some way, shape or form in this moment. It sounds wildly complicated. Do we have to do this alone? Should we do this alone? Are there people who can help us through this? And if so, who are they? Like, what are the roles that if we have access to them would be incredibly helpful to navigate these moments?

• 35:30Speaker 06

  So the answer plainly is no, we cannot do this alone. We certainly can't do it well alone. And I think having a team can really be transformational. And the team is going to look different for everyone. Where to begin is asking for help. And whether that's asking for help for the people that are around you, it's the siblings that are trying to also help mom and dad and having a division of labor when it comes to the various types of care that's needed, whether it's bill paying, or physical care, or making

• 36:06Speaker 06

  meals, or driving. And it's also community resources. One of the best next steps when you're dealing with issues as it relates to aging parents is locating a care manager. A lot of people don't know what a care manager is. Sometimes they're known as geriatric care managers. Care managers are often nurses, social workers, psychologists even, that can come into a family dynamic, perhaps after a diagnosis or upon, you know, an aging loved one's sort of delay or lack of capacity or beginning to lose capacity,

• 36:48Speaker 06

  to assess the situation as it relates to the aging loved one's home and what type of care they might need in the home, how to keep them safe, if they have to move out of their home, if they don't have the right doctors around them, if they're not on the right medications. So having this quarterback as the care manager can be really helpful to a family because that person can be an incredible resources to connect you to the other resources. I think the other person that can really be helpful, particularly if you have some kind of assets, is the financial advisor. Getting on the same page with that individual

• 37:32Speaker 06

  to find out what is the financial landscape? What can my parents afford? Am I going to have to contribute? Because if you know off the bat that there are insufficient resources, then you're going to have to look at public benefits. And public benefits like Medicaid can also provide a tremendous amount of care, depending on the state that you're residing in.

• 37:55Jonathan Fields?

  So you've got, it starts with family, then it moves to community, then you've introduced the idea of sort of like a professional care manager, financial person to really sort of like look at and understand what is available. What about the role of somebody, for lack of a better word, as a mediator?

• 38:20Speaker 06

  Hmm. So often, the care manager plays that role, believe it or not, Jonathan, because they are quite familiar with difficult family dynamics and can be the buffer. You know, the other thing I'll add is often you need the legal authority to help advocate for your aging loved ones. So making sure that you have the right documents in place for mom or dad so that if they don't have the ability to advocate for themselves, whether in a healthcare setting or a financial setting, that someone else has the ability to raise their hand and manage it for them. So having the care manager, having the money person,

• 39:02Speaker 06

  and having the legal authority can really provide you with the good sort of foundation.

• 39:11Jonathan Fields?

  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

• 39:15Jonathan Fields?

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• 39:59Jonathan Fields?

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• 40:43Jonathan Fields?

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• 41:51Jonathan Fields?

  So I would imagine that a lot of folks are familiar with the role of some sort of financial advisor, whether it's an accountant, broker, or wealth manager, whatever it may be. And a care manager, it's probably very new to a lot of people joining us. How do you even begin to find that person? Are there qualifications or licensing? Or like, how do you, how do you find one? And then how do you know that this person is actually the right person for you?

• 42:22Speaker 06

  So they are licensed. There are licensed care managers. And what I will tell you is that the best resource is from other people, knowing what their experience is. The other great referral opportunity is through the lawyer that is working on the documents for your parents. I happen to, to practice in this area of law, and I can tell you, I definitely know who the good care managers are. And then I think the other part of it, Jonathan, is It has to be a personality match within the family. And what I mean by that is that there are families that have sort of less experience in this area and they're going to need a lot more handholding.

• 43:07Speaker 06

  Or perhaps the kids don't live locally. And so the care manager is going to have to take a much more active role. And it's really important that that care manager have an excellent rapport with your aging loved one. So maybe it's not so important that you don't love him or her, but if your mom or dad does, and you feel like they're being listened to, then it could be the right match. We have to make sure that the person is a licensed professional. You can't just hold yourself out as a geriatric care manager. There are certifications for geriatric care managers. The Alzheimer's Association, or the Parkinson's Foundation, or the American Cancer Society. They are excellent resources for professionals who are licensed and vetted.

• 43:51Speaker 06

  We call that supportive care in my world, which are all of the other things outside of the actual medical care.

• 43:58Jonathan Fields?

  That makes sense. As you mentioned, you're an attorney who has practiced in this area for quite a long time. When does somebody bring in a lawyer?

• 44:11Speaker 06

  Well, when you turn 18, Jonathan, your parents can't do things for you, right? So I, let's start back there. When you have a child that has graduated high school and they're on to their next thing, whatever that is, once they're 18, they need advanced directives. And those advanced directives are powers of attorney and healthcare documents to say who can speak for them. And so if you think about your aging parents, it's really important that they have those documents because at the other end, there's a possibility that they will not have the requisite mental capacity to manage their own affairs.

• 44:53Speaker 06

  So it's really important to have those documents in place before they have capacity issues. And so when people say, when is the right time to have those documents? I say 18, and I'm only half kidding. But let's say you are in middle life and your parents haven't done this kind of planning. I think going back to what we touched on briefly before is that we want to know what our parents want. And so maybe putting the ball in their court and saying, this is the way for you to maintain control, Mom or Dad. You get to choose. Do you want me to manage the money? Do you want my brother? Do you want us to take it on jointly? Who's the right person in the healthcare situation, Mom? Is it my sister who panics when she sees blood?

• 45:38Speaker 06

  Or is it my brother who happens to be a nurse and is much more logical? So I think framing it for parents in a way to empower them is the right sort of approach in that regard. Because I think a lot of parents come to my office worried about the surrender of control

• 46:02Speaker 06

  and what it signifies to them, what's next in life. And discussions about lack of capacity are scary. So reframing the conversation into

• 46:17Speaker 06

  an exercise in maintaining control can sometimes scratch the itch and make people feel a little better.

• 46:23Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, that makes sense. I almost wonder, I'm curious whether you see this, if having these conversations and working with a skilled lawyer to actually create the documents that you need so early that the concerns that you're talking about, the inevitabilities you're talking about, feel so far down the road from the moment of the conversation that it's just so not real that a lot of the emotion is diffused if you actually have it so much earlier. Because it's not like, hey, you know, like, I'm seeing things happening. I'm concerned, like, you might not have much time. Let's get the documents in order. It's like, look.

• 47:00Jonathan Fields?

  This isn't even on the horizon, but it's just a smart thing to do. So why don't we get this out of the way? Does that land?

• 47:05Speaker 06

  It absolutely does. Jonathan, you're 100% right. It's so nice to be able to say, just in case this happens. It's a much harder conversation when somebody has just been diagnosed with something, because they can know what the trajectory is. And often, it's a scary journey. So doing something far in advance, when there isn't anything looming, can actually be pretty liberating.

• 47:32Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, that makes sense. I want to wrap with, kind of circle us around to one other part of the conversation, because a lot of what we're talking about can seem scary, it can seem heavy, it can seem complicated, it can seem sad and frightening.

• 47:50Jonathan Fields?

  Is there another side to this season? To the, like, you're in the sandwich generation, you're giving care in all directions, your identity is changing, so much about everything is changing. Is there a grace side to this? Is there an opening side to this? Is there a beautiful side to this in some way that you've seen?

• 48:12Speaker 06

  There absolutely is a beautiful side to this. One of the great things about caregiving is it's a reflection of your love for the person.

• 48:23Speaker 06

  We often don't have the time, based on our busy schedules, to spend that much time with our aging parents. When you're a well-oiled machine and mom and dad were popping in to provide some after-school care to your son or your daughter,

• 48:39Speaker 06

  we often didn't have that quality time with our parent. So when you become the caregiver, in some ways, you're forced to spend more time than you otherwise had before. So those moments and that time can be really meaningful. I think for many adult children too, who have had difficult relationships with their parent, it provides them an opportunity to...

• 49:05Speaker 06

  Reconcile in some way or make peace with what the relationship is. You know, when my own dad passed away, who I was a long distant caregiver to, I remember talking to a family friend who was a priest and he said, what a beautiful thing it was that your father was able to usher you into this world and you were able to usher him out. And I think about that a lot in caregiving, that we are sort of ushering people through whatever it is that ails them and providing them the love and the support and the care that they need. The other great part about it, Jonathan,

• 49:46Speaker 06

  which we touched on was the modeling piece and having our own children see how we are to our parents and showing them what it is to be a quote, "good" daughter or a good son or a loving advocate for someone that you love.

• 50:03Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, that lens. I would imagine also that so often relationships are filled with a lot of noise and as we get closer to

• 50:14Jonathan Fields?

  the sensation that we don't have a lot of time left, that a lot of that noise drops away and the things that truly do matter fill the space.

• 50:22Speaker 06

  I've seen it and I've felt it where you realize what is the heart of the matter? And as you put it, the noise kind of falls away. It allows you to be in some ways your best self and it allows your parent to show the best of themselves to you. And there can be a tremendous amount of forgiveness in that role and letting things go. It does provide the opportunity, particularly for those difficult relationships, to be healed, particularly after the parent is no longer here.

• 50:58Jonathan Fields?

  As you described that, what came to mind is the phrase that I've heard elsewhere. When you're in the final moments with somebody where like there are these four things that you're invited to say, "Thank you, I love you, I forgive you, do you forgive me?" And I wonder if we said some versions of that or had some conversations of that long before that moment, how much better so much of our time together might be.

• 51:25Speaker 06

  I think you're right. I will also say, and just to add, I think it's really important to think about the adult children who can't provide the care because the relationship was so difficult and could in some cases be abusive. And I also think it's important to allow the grace for those adult children who can't do those things. You know, there is a societal expectation that we will provide the care, but there are so many different ways to care. And I think you have to also be kind to yourself and think about what your own capabilities are, going back to identity, Jonathan, where we started.

• 52:07Jonathan Fields?

  I so appreciate you weaving that in because I think you're right. Like, the reality of every relationship is going to be profoundly different and we should, we should make space for all of that. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So in this Container of Good Life project, if I offer up the phrase "to live a good life," what comes up?

• 52:26Speaker 06

  For me, I want my family, particularly my children and my, my husband, to think that I've done the best that I can and I've helped people along the way. And so to me, living a good life means that I've made a positive impact on the people that I love. And

• 52:50Speaker 06

  They've seen goodness through my life in that regard.

• 52:55Jonathan Fields?

  Thank you. So let's talk about some of the big ahas and actionable takeaways from this convo. One of the things that I'm really thinking about is how much of the sandwich generation experience happens kind of beneath the surface in places we almost never name. Candace gave us language for that, the four shifts, identity, grief, ownership, and loneliness. None of them are about logistics. They are about who you are while the logistics are just kind of happening. And the grief piece especially, grief of who your parents used to be, grief of the life that maybe you expected to be living at this point, grief of yourself inside the role. That landed in a really powerful way. The other thing that I'm thinking about, she said, it's not one conversation.

• 53:38Jonathan Fields?

  The conversation about what your parents want, what happens if they cannot speak for themselves, who's in charge of what? It doesn't have to happen on a Tuesday at six over dinner with everyone present. It can and maybe should start small. It can start from love rather than crisis. And starting early doesn't mean anticipating loss, it just means giving the people you love the power to choose. If you're in this season right now, or you can see it coming, take one thing from today. You cannot do this well alone. Find your people, your care manager, the financial person, the lawyer, start there. And hey, before you leave next week, I'm sitting down with Dr. Joshua Coleman, a psychologist who spent years studying something that's really reshaping

• 54:22Jonathan Fields?

  families in ways that most of us have not fully reckoned with. Family estrangement, why it's rising, what's actually driving it, and what to do if you're on either side of it. Be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss this conversation. And do me a quick favor, share this episode with just one person who needs to hear it. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing help by Troy Young, Chris Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already, please go ahead and follow us wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss a conversation. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

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