Secure Attachment & The Good Life: Surprising Insights | Amir Levine, M.D.

The tiny moments you ignore may hold the key to it all. New research in neuroscience and attachment science reveals that your brain is constantly monitoring your relationships through small, everyday interactions, and the signals it picks up quietly shape everything from your self-esteem to your sense that life has meaning. Most of us pour energy into the big relationship gestures, the long conversations, the grand repairs. But the seemingly insignificant exchanges, a returned text, a warm nod, a moment of simply being seen, may matter far more to your brain and your sense of security than you ever realized. Amir Levine, M. D. is a psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and Associate Professor of Clinical Psychiatry at Columbia University who trained in molecular neuroscience under Nobel Laureate Eric Kandel. He is the coauthor of the international bestseller Attached, which has sold over two million copies in more than 30 languages, and his newest book is Secure, The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life https://amzn.to/4tpVAUm. In this episode, you'll discover: The brain science behind why even brief moments of exclusion can erode your self-esteem, sense of control, and feeling that life is meaningfulA 5-part framework (with a memorable acronym) for building the foundation of every secure connection, one you can start practicing todayWhy your attachment style isn't something to "fix," and the hidden superpower built into your specific wiring that you may be overlookingTwo simple rules for navigating conflict that keep even heated moments from damaging the bondAn overlooked relationship practice that works like two-factor authentication for trust and deeper connection If you've ever wondered why certain relationships feel effortless while others leave you anxious, guarded, or drained, this conversation will change how you see every interaction in your day. Hit play and discover how small, consistent shifts can help you build the kind of secure, connected life your brain has been searching for. You can find Amir at: Website https://amirlevinemd.com/ | Take the Attachment Quiz https://amirlevinemd.com/quiz | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/dr-deepika-chopra-validation-neuroscience-resiliency Next week, be sure to tune in for an episode with me about the 'Unbusy Manifesto' and the six daily practices that will help you reclaim your time and your sanity. Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the Wheel https://jonathanfields.substack.com/aboutVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jonathan Fields?

  So here's something that caught me off guard. Your brain is consistently scanning your relationships. Not the big dramatic moments, but the tiny ones. A return text, a nod in passing, a moment where someone just kind of sees you. When those small signals say you belong, you're safe. Something in us shifts. Your confidence, your sense of meaning, even how much you feel in control of your own life. But when those signals go quiet, your brain sounds the alarm, whether you realize it or not. My guest today is Amir Levine, a psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and professor at Columbia University, who trained under Nobel laureate Eric Kandel. He's a co-author of the international bestseller Attached, and his newest book is called Secure.

• 0:44Jonathan Fields?

  And in our conversation, we explore why rejection stings so hard at the neurological level. We talk about the hidden superpowers inside each attachment style. And we talk about a five-part framework for building the kind of deeply connected, secure relationships that your brain has been searching for. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.

• 1:14Speaker 01

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• 1:45Speaker 02

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• 2:48Jonathan Fields?

  One of my big curiosities just out of the gate is, why does being ignored or rejected universally hurt us so much?

• 3:00Speaker 04

  So much. I'm so glad you asked it right out of the gate. Because it's kind of, it's, it's kind of like the basis of all this whole new book is based on. It's kind of like the biggest thing that a lot of us are even not aware of how much it hurts us. And even our society actually accepts exclusion. And I just want like, it just, it's something. And I'll give you a little bit of background of how we actually found that it hurts the brain so much and how much it hurts the brain. And then I'll tell you why I think that is. And where I realized it. It happened in a very specific trip that I took. But it took me time to get there.

• 3:42Speaker 04

  So the whole science of exclusion comes from a series of studies that are called the decibel experiments. And based on that, I've called, I've come to call it decibel effect.

• 3:54Speaker 04

  And in decibel experiments, it all came from like one researcher, Kit Williams, who actually was walking in the park with his dog one day. And then all of a sudden, the freeze be came sailing in his direction. And he picked it up and he sort of, we were back at the people like who were playing. And they started to include him in the game. And then just as, all of a sudden, just as they just started to include him, all of a sudden, they just went back to playing the two of them. And he remembered, I remember talking to him and he said, he remembered feeling surprisingly bad. Being left out, even though we expected it, no one thought he was going to continue playing with them. They were strangers. But that's kind of like stuck in his mind.

• 4:35Speaker 04

  And he went on to create this amazing set of experiment called the cyberball experiments where you watch the video game. It's not like a two dimensional video game. There's nothing immersive or even persuasive about it. And you're like a figure and you play catch with two other figures and all of a sudden they stop throwing the ball in your direction. And what they found was two different, two separate sets of findings. One, how it affects the brain and how the second, how it affects our psychology.

• 5:05Jonathan Fields?

  Okay.

• 5:05Speaker 04

  So our brain, like areas of like painful distress just like go online and like preoccupation and sort of assessment. What's wrong? What have I done wrong? Why is this happening? And like a lot of distress. So it really triggers distress. And the psychological part of it is that it causes, it sort of elicits what I've come to call the EMC. Sort of it really decreases people's self-esteem. It makes people feel that life is less meaningful and it makes them feel that they're in less of control of their lives. And that's crazy to me. When I read that, I was like, that's just insane. Things that I always thought how much I feel I'm controlling my life, my self-esteem

• 5:49Speaker 04

  or that life is meaningful. I never thought that it related to how other people relate to me, especially not like in such small relational moments. So these are the findings of the cyber, I call it the cyberball effect because to me it's like all these things that we think that are related to us and how we feel about ourselves. Not necessarily in relations to others are really connected to how others relate to us.

• 6:16Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. I mean, so it's wild that what you're describing. Tell me if I'm getting this right. So basically people sort of like play a, a virtual game where you're like, you're playing catch and then all of a sudden you're excluded from the catch. Like nobody's throwing you the ball anymore, basically.

• 6:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:30Jonathan Fields?

  Right? Um, and even that, which seems like it'd be kind of innocuous. Like this is, we all kind of know it's, you know, it's a game like. You're saying you were able to register very clear changes in brain physiology, showing like the distress centers lighting up and on the psychological side of it, feelings of exclusion and lack of self-esteem and sort of like being almost like cast out. It's not like a conscious process. It seems like it's something that's more wired into us. It's primal.

• 6:59Speaker 04

  Right, completely. That's what I thought about, like a knee jerk reaction. Like, we can't stop it. We can't control it. Very similar here. It's something that's ingrained in us.

• 7:08Jonathan Fields?

  As you're describing that, it's reminding me of years back, I was actually working on something and I started going deep into the research, the work of John Kachoppa on loneliness and lack of belonging. He's describing a lot of the same things that you're describing. I don't recall him actually doing fMRI studies or, you know, like neurological studies where they could see what was happening, but behaviorally, they saw like all these same things. And it was profound, but for some people, it made them pro-social, like, how can I change? How can I be nicer? How can I be kinder? How can I, so I can be included again? For other people, it made them antisocial. They got filled with anger and rage and actually learned, how can I get back at this person? How can I hurt them for excluding me?

• 7:53Jonathan Fields?

  Have you looked at that, like the response also?

• 7:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, I love that you're saying that people react differently. And I think that also relates to the attachment styles, that we have different programming inside us that kind of like decides for us how we're going to react. Like, we're not fully at the helm here and we don't really completely, and we know that a lot of the way that we react to the world, to the relational world, really depends on our attachment style. And so, like, if you're, people who have a more secure attachment style, they don't see it as much as a threat. And sometimes, maybe even though they'll have a soluble effect, and, but they may just like say, oh, they are able to... Really, they don't register it as much of a threat. They can register it, but their brain doesn't react as powerfully to it.

• 8:41Speaker 04

  Whereas people who have insecure attachment styles, they respond to it much more powerfully. And I guess that's one of the reasons, just the fact that we respond so differently to our environment is one of the things that I really, that I actually use to try to help people become more secure by learning to engineer your environment in such a way that can actually can calm your brain, can sort of find a way to change, not just calm the brain, because you feed it different messages that can help it change.

• 9:16Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. Let's talk a bit about attachment styles before we dive more, in a more focused way into security, because this is one of those phrases that so many of us have heard, you know, like, and it's almost like it's entered pop culture in a lot of different ways, what your attachment style and like, you know. But I don't think many of us really understand what we're talking about when we actually say the phrase, attachment style. So break this down for me, maybe in language that, you know, just somebody who's never even heard about this could get.

• 9:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it's amazing to me that so many people talk about it, because when I wrote my first book, Attached, almost like more than 15 years ago, it was just some lingo, scientific lingo, but I found it so useful myself. The way I think about attachment styles is that we, it all has to do with how comfortable we feel with intimacy and closeness. That's on the one side, and then on the other side, how much of a, how sensitive of a radar do we have for potential disruption in the, in the connection? So if we have, if we love, love, love closeness and intimacy, but at the same time, we have a very sensitive radar to potential threat.

• 10:30Speaker 04

  And what I mean threat in in attachment lingo is everything that can that stands in the way of the availability of the other person. So like the cyberball effect, like a one on one version of the cyberball effect is called still facing. When someone all of a sudden doesn't respond to you, they sort of have a blank face, they ignore you. So it's like that's a like a special case of cyberball, which is I called still facing. It's based on this still facing experiment. And so when people with anxious attachment style have love, love closeness, but are very sensitive, like a little like if you come and you're sad, they feel like, oh my God, what's wrong? Like they're they're sick of me. They don't they they don't want to be with me.

• 11:12Speaker 04

  There's a lot of fear that relationships are fragile and that can like easily be destroyed and that you're not going to be loved as much as like you love others. So it's sort of like this world belief about around that. That's anxious attachment. Now, do you avoid it?

• 11:26Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, just just someone I want to make sure I'm really clear. So anxious attachment would be somebody who really craves and values deep connection. But when there's even the slightest hint of of somebody feeling that they're tuned out, they're not connected, they're sort of like focused away from them, whether that's real or imagined, that creates a spin cycle on them.

• 11:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, and the thing is, what I found a lot in the literature, and I think even I in my humble opinion, even the literature, the research literature is a little bit biased because they really do point out that they have this amazing, like the canary in the coal mine, they have this amazing senses for detecting danger. And sometimes they do jump into conclusions, but oftentimes they are very accurate, they are accurate. But what I found was that it goes beyond just detecting danger or potentially in relationships is a lot of what I look, when I looked at some of the imaging studies, I see that they really find that not only they can detect danger, they're just very good in detecting

• 12:37Speaker 04

  nuance in in in people, in environment, and in general. So that can be an amazing gift if.

• 12:47Speaker 04

  Giving the right circumstances and the right environment. And that's what I try to do in this new book is really come up with a set of tools that can help people create a secure environment for themselves. But in some ways, I think about the anxious attached, the people who are anxiously attached. I sort of, there's a whole theory about orchids and dandelions. And I think about them more like orchids. And there is findings that show that like a segment of the population are more like orchids. They're very finicky, they need very specific environment to flourish, but they really flourish beautifully. And dandelions, they can grow anywhere and it's fine. And like, it wouldn't matter if you give them a better environment. They'll grow here, they'll grow there, but they're not.

• 13:32Speaker 04

  But the orchids of this world, and that's what they've shown in multiple studies. When you give them the right environment, they outperform the dandelions. So it's just like really find, like helping people create the right environment for themselves.

• 13:46Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, it's so nuanced, it's fascinating. So that's anxious. Talk to me about the other sort of like common ones that we've heard of.

• 13:53Speaker 04

  So now we'll move to the other one that like, the anxious are like, I wouldn't say troublemakers, but you know, that's like, the relationships don't often come easy to them. And the avoidance, also relationships don't come easy to them and for a different reason. It's kind of like the other side of the coin. The avoidance, they want to be in a relationship. We're all, we're very social species, so we all need relationships. But when they get into a relationship, and it doesn't have to be only romantic relationships. And I'm talking even the anxious, I'm talking about different types of relationships. They don't feel too comfortable with too much closeness. So they start to use what we call in attachment lingo, deactivating strategies

• 14:36Speaker 04

  to create distance in their relationship. So they'll walk a few steps ahead of you. Let's say you're going on a trip and you're like, oh, I'm gonna go on this amazing vacation in Paris. We're gonna walk hand in hand and they're saying, and then all of a sudden you find that your partner is walking a few steps ahead of you all the whole time. And it's like, what the hell is going on? Like, and then you can get like, so again, how you will respond to that really depends much a lot on your attachment style. Like someone anxious will say, oh my God, okay, this is so horrible. They get upset or get like disappointed about themselves, I'm not loved or who do they think they are? And then they must start a huge fight. But someone who's secure may not feel it as much. But the avoidant or will have a different way of responding to it.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  And we can talk about that in a moment. But the avoidant, they have these deactivating strategies that they use all the time to minimize closeness. And oftentimes, they don't know it themselves that that's what they need. And so that sends them on, that gets them into so much relationship problems. And I try to sort of really show them in this, like in this new book, like I have these three. And this really, it's not just like it's a new kind of therapy that I started to help people become more secure. Secure priming therapy. I teach them these three common pitfalls that they fall into without even knowing it. That gets them into trouble in relationships because oftentimes they don't even understand what they did wrong.

• 16:04Speaker 04

  Cause they engage with someone and then all of a sudden, okay, it's been, it's been nice to spend the weekend together. And now I'm back to work and you don't even think about, they don't, they naturally create distance because they need it. So that's the avoidant attachment style. And you can see how, and you can see how like anxious and avoidant can, but one's like wants a lot of intimacy and closeness. And very sensitive to potential threat. And the other instills a lot of threat by deactivating strategies and constantly get the other person like, um, like he's attachment or circuitry. That whole cyberbal effect gets like constantly triggered.

• 16:44Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. So we've got anxious and avoidant. And you've referenced secure a number of times now.

• 16:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:51Jonathan Fields?

  Are there any, is it basically those three? Those are the three that I've heard.

• 16:55Speaker 04

  There's also a small segment of the population that are fearful avoidants. It's kind of like a mix of the anxious and the, uh, and the avoidant. So they do want, so avoidance was like, I don't really need closeness. I will need, I'm self-sufficient. They don't like the idea to think that they're going to depend on anyone. There's like for each his own. They're fearful avoidant, no, they want closeness, similar to the anxious. But when people get close to them, they start to feel really uncomfortable. So there's this constant push-pull scenario where like with one hand they say come closer and with the other like stay away, stay away. And they really struggle between vacillating between the two. And that creates a lot of relationship instabilities you can imagine.

• 17:38Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. So I mean, with the anxious, you described that, yes, there's there are certain struggles built into it, but there are also potentially benefits. And you're like, there's a superpower side of this too. Do you see the same thing with avoidant styles?

• 17:50Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, for sure. So, um, and I know, I think, and that's the other thing, you know, in social media, they there's sort of really, and some of it, I have to say, in in my new approach and in my new, I I have to say, I kind of like make amends to the avoidance of this world because in the original book in Attached, I we just took the research finding and we described them. And I think even the research is a little biased because, I mean, he chose that if their partner is sick, they're they're not going to take care of him that well, that they have a wondering eye, that they're like, they do all these things, like that even if you do all these amazing things to them, they ignore it and kind of like they look for like for the negative, all sorts of things.

• 18:32Speaker 04

  But in my practice, because after I wrote like Attached, I spent like 15 years like trying to help people become more secure. People came to me and said, oh, how can I become more secure? I didn't have an immediate answer to that initially. And then I built all these like sort of tools and really a new type of of therapy, of treatment, to help people become more secure. And I found that often time avoidants are really misunderstood. That there's this innate need for distance and that they just don't know how to handle it right. And they sort of like trip themselves and others don't know how to like approach it so much. So I think the the the main power, their superpower, is that ability to function on their own.

• 19:17Speaker 04

  And carry on despite difficult things happening around them, relational things happening around them. And one amazing study that shows you the benefit of both the anxious and the avoidant, such a brilliant study. They put a group of people in a room and they, all of a sudden, there's a tiny, a little bit of smoke coming out of one of the computers. And the anxious attachers were the first to identify it. And the avoidants were the first out the door. And everybody else followed. So they're like, I'm out of, I'm not waiting for you guys to decide. Because you know, sometimes like, are we gonna go out? Should we leave? Should we stay? They're like, no, they're not stopping, not checking. They function on their own. And it worked.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  They can really work well on their own. They can do, they're like, they can decide things on their own. They don't really need a lot of reassurance from others. They value their autonomy. So there are advantages to that.

• 20:12Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm, that's so fascinating. I wonder if you're aware of, I'm so curious about it. I wonder if you're aware of any research that looks at any correlations between, we get this right, avoidant attachment styles and sensory processing issues or struggles?

• 20:34Speaker 04

  So what the research does show is that people with avoidant attachment styles suppress, like really suppress their, their attachment needs. And they actually, they had this research when you have to identify words that are related to attachment. Like you just press on a, on a, I think it's a word and not word. It's sort of a common psychological thing. And they, avoidants oftentimes don't regularly recognize the attachment words that quickly. But if they give them a cognitive load, like they tell them, remember a set of numbers before you do this experiment. So now they're working hard in their brain to do something else also. All of a sudden, that suppression lifts and they perform as well as others.

• 21:18Speaker 04

  So that's how they find that there's an active suppression of their attachment needs. And so, yeah, I mean, there is a level of.

• 21:30Speaker 04

  I don't really need anyone and I'm going to like really push a whole level of awareness out of my, a whole level of need or subtlety out of my awareness because it's too much for me. Or I don't even know if to give it, yeah, I think that's how I would say it's too much for me.

• 21:49Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, that kind of makes sense. All right, so then you've referenced secure a number of times. Take me more into what this is and how we experience it.

• 21:57Speaker 04

  So secures, I have to say, oftentimes, they're what I've found before I even sort of came across this whole body of information about the adult attachment styles. Finding out about secures really transformed my life and how I see people. Because secures, in my mind, throughout this work, I fell in love with the secures of this world. But oftentimes, they're ignored because they're always there for us. They're warm and loving, they love closeness, but if you also, you need your distance, they'll give you your distance. They really are easygoing in a relationship and that's one of the reasons is because they don't have a very sensitive radar. So a lot goes over their head. They're not going to notice things that are happening in their relationship.

• 22:42Speaker 04

  Probably the last people to know if they're being cheated on or they just don't notice things. But not only that, they're also amazingly good in regulating their affect and their partner's affect. And that is such a huge gift in a relationship. And I remember this one example that a patient of mine gave me. They went to Whistler on a ski trip, like with this, her partner. And this is the first, you know, like, secure partner that she had. And she said, they got to their cabin in Whistler and I don't know what happened in the first two minutes they were there. Like, he got very upset with her about something and he stormed off.

• 23:27Speaker 04

  And her heart was sinking because like, oh no, it was all too familiar to her. This is just like this big fight in the beginning of a vacation, a trip, and it's going to ruin the whole vacation. But then, two minutes later, he's like, he sort of comes through the door and he said, "I'm so sorry. I really don't want this to be this way. I'm sorry I overreacted. Here, come, let's have a hug and start all over again." And like, they did that, and she said, "That was it." It kind of like changed the whole course. There was no like, long sort of like silences, like all this sort of like additional fight or talking about how this was wrong or that was wrong. It all dissipated.

• 24:11Speaker 04

  And that's what secures are so good at. It's kind of like really regulating people's affect. And so if you have secure people in your life, really, there's almost like having a relationship coach or even like a life coach built into your life. But oftentimes, they're the ones we ignore because they always text us back. They always respond to us. So like, our mind goes to places where, oh my God, we've been savable, we've been still-faced, and we need to fix this. And the ones that are there on the side, they're always there. We ignore them, even though they're such a huge asset for us in our journey. They can help us become more secure.

• 24:52Jonathan Fields?

  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

• 24:57Jonathan Fields?

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• 25:42Jonathan Fields?

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• 26:27Jonathan Fields?

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• 27:08Jonathan Fields?

  Go to Sequencing.com and use the promo code GOODLIFE for 10% off. That's Sequencing.com promo code GOODLIFE. That's S-E-Q-U-E-N-C-I-N-G.com promo code GOODLIFE. Good Life Project is supported by Kachava. So I used to think being salty was reserved for bad moods and pretzels. But lately I have come to realize that a little salty edge actually makes life and especially dessert way more interesting. Any pastry chef will tell you that a pinch of salt isn't there to ruin the party. It's there to make the sweet parts just really shine, which is exactly what Kachava pulled off with their new salted caramel. First sip, I actually laughed. It's that good, rich caramel, a little salty edge,

• 27:52Jonathan Fields?

  and none of the sugary drawbacks. And it's still the Kachava that I count on. Two scoops for complete nutrition with plant-based protein, fiber, greens, and so much more. No artificial flavors, colors, or sweeteners, no fillers, no nonsense, which if you're feeling a little salty yourself is kind of the point. Embrace your salty side. Go to kachava.com and use the code GOODLIFE for 15% off your order. That's kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code GOODLIFE. So it's like if you, if you're a secure attachment style, you may have a higher risk of kind of being taken, just not taken advantage of, but taken for, you know, like

• 28:35Speaker 04

  For granted.

• 28:36Jonathan Fields?

  For granted. You're just, they just assume you're always going to be around. You're just that kind of person. And I don't really have to give you as much love or pay attention to you. So you may end up, I would imagine, even though you feel, you feel secure, over time, you know, a certain amount of upset may start to build.

• 28:55Speaker 04

  I think so, but the thing is, oftentimes, secures also really know how to ask for what they need.

• 29:01Jonathan Fields?

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 29:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, there's, I told you, there's just like this sort of magical creatures when it comes to relationships. So they know how to ask for what they need. They know how to do it in a way that's effective. They're just like, because there's no feeling of danger and the way that they go about doing it, like, there's this whole thing in the book I write about, like even this whole idea of people pleasing. If they need to say no, they'll just say no. But they don't think, oh my God, if I say no to this person, they're going to respond so badly. They don't really, it doesn't register to them like that. So it creates the opposite of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I mean, it creates a secure self-fulfilling prophecy. It's just like things, even at work, they need to have difficult conversations.

• 29:44Speaker 04

  They can have them. They just like, they, everything is less, because everything, you don't feel that the danger is bubbling up behind. So it makes it easier.

• 29:55Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, it's like they themselves probably don't feel that danger. They're more comfortable than expressing their needs and probably also appreciations. And it's almost like they're modeling, you know,

• 30:05Speaker 04

  Oh, exactly.

• 30:06Jonathan Fields?

  Safety, so that you can actually do the same thing back to them.

• 30:09Speaker 04

  I love that you said that because that's exactly it. And that's what I, so what I try to sort of to do in this, um, in this new approach, the secure primary therapy or secure primary coaching, is to teach people that, and the other part that's really important is that it's, um, I basically developed an antidote to that cyberball effect. And I call it, um, CARP. It's kind of an acronym, C A R R P, which is means, which stands for consistent, available, responsive,

• 30:44Speaker 04

  reliable and predictable. And the way that it works, and that's basically, these are like the five pillars of a secure connection. And that's what secures naturally do. They're naturally CARP. They're consistent, available and responsive. And the other part of it is that you have to experience them. It's kind of like a two factor authentication. It's reliable and predictable. And secures do that automatically. And I try to teach people who have insecure attachment style about CARP and how to be CARP and how to converse with others and tell them about those five pillars of secure connection and teach them, because these are things we can learn. We just don't know them, but they're not that difficult to learn.

• 31:29Speaker 04

  And also because it's not in the big things that people need to be, our brain and the attachment system. It's a curator system. It checks in the little things. And that I've come to call the seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life, also SEMIs. So it's in those SEMIs that our attachment lives. It doesn't care if like you talk to me all night, but then if all of a sudden disappear, it will care about the little things. So if you want to, like, if you really want to invest work in your relationship, invest in the, if you, if you understand the attachment logic, you will invest in those SEMIs and make them consistent, available and responsive. You don't need to go all out and spend, like be attached to the hip.

• 32:14Speaker 04

  The attachment system doesn't need that at all. In fact, it's the opposite. It's a system of safety. Secure relationships end up sort of being in the background of our lives. It actually allows us to kind of like forget about the people for a while and engage in work and engage in sort of like parenting and all the things that you want to do. They serve as a safe space, basically.

• 32:39Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense. I love the acronym SEMI also. Seemingly insignificant, what was?

• 32:45Speaker 04

  Seemingly insignificant minor interactions.

• 32:48Jonathan Fields?

  Right, so it's like the tiny moments.

• 32:50Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 32:51Jonathan Fields?

  Often, we don't even focus on, we don't pay attention to, but they can actually really matter. I do want to drop into your CHP model in more detail, but before we get there, there's this lingering question, which is, so you've shared these three different attachment styles, and maybe kind of like a less frequent fourth one, the more the fearful, right? It seems like there are incredible benefits to the secure attachment style.

• 33:16Jonathan Fields?

  But it's the same, and so you would assume, well, we should all want to try and find our way to that style. But I guess the question that's spinning in my head is, but you also shared that each of the insecure attachment styles, they also have certain superpowers, certain benefits. So do we lose those benefits by somehow being able to become more secure? And if so, is that loss outweighed by the benefits of actually the secure style?

• 33:50Speaker 04

  I'm so glad you asked that because I can't tell you how many patients come to me. And that's like, I have this one particular person that I can think of.

• 33:59Jonathan Fields?

  That was like his biggest fear, that he's gonna lose his edge. Like that trader that you were talking about, I'm like, I'm making millions of dollars because of this, why would I want to?

• 34:07Speaker 04

  Like he's gonna lose his edge. I mean, so you know what, my answer? I wish, I wish like we're like, that our ability to intervene is like to extract that, that we were so powerful. But the truth of the matter, with the way that it works, we have a certain biology that sort of identifies all these SEMIs. And people that say they're anxious can identify those SEMIs much better. That doesn't go away. What you can create is what I've come to call, what you can create is what I've come to call, you can live in secure mode. And you can take that particular area where it comes as a disadvantage to you. And you can take that particular area that comes as a disadvantage to you and learn to shape it

• 34:51Speaker 04

  using those carp and senes to something that would actually be more aligned with your biology. You can't really change that basic biology biology that much. That ability to sense things in the environment, that doesn't entirely go away. But what does go away is that what happens when that environment gets triggered. Initially, we became hyper aware and hyper aroused. But when you, it's like a tracker, like in, like when you walk, like in, uh, like, like, and you're trying to track and there's, you think that there's danger, all of a sudden you'll be much more aware of every little sound. But if you know, you know, actually the environment is actually not much safer. You're gonna, you're gonna let your guard down and you're gonna not notice any, like

• 35:36Speaker 04

  every little thing in that particular environment. And that's what I'm trying to achieve in this new treatment or this new approach is to live, to learn to live in secure mode in those areas that are like in places where things, it's not working for you. And that's what I really love about this whole attachment. You know, attachment, the whole, a whole body of knowledge doesn't come from the medical model, which I love. It's not about health or disease. It's about, is it effective or ineffective? Is it working for you or not working for you? So it's like about 25% of the population are avoidant, about 20% are anxious and about 50% are secure.

• 36:17Speaker 04

  So it's not that people are avoidant or anxious are like, uh, it's not unhealthy. It's just a variation on the norm. It's just big for evolutionary speaking, there was an advantage to having a portion of the population. Right. Be able to act decisively in a, in a moment of crisis or be able to detect potential threat, uh, in terms of just like survival. But the survival, but like evolution, like doesn't care about our personal happiness. It's about the survival of the species. We're just like this, uh, we are gene carrying, like entities that are supposed to carry on the genes to the next generation and our personal happiness, it couldn't care less about it. But I care about our personal happiness.

• 37:02Speaker 04

  So I thought about a way to design a system that helps people. Live in secure mode in where they find things challenging.

• 37:13Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, I love the way you described that. You know, so it's almost like if I'm getting this right, like if you're, you have this anxious style, it's not going to go away. It's to a certain extent wired into you. You're still going to be scanning the environment and picking up a lot of inputs, probably much more nuanced and subtle ones than other people. But maybe if you also really develop the skill to drop into secure mode on a much more regular basis. Maybe those, all that stimulus is still coming in at you, you'd be able to process without basically saying like red alert, red alert, red alert, just more like, oh, interesting information. I'll take it in and there's a different way that I can sort of like move with it.

• 37:54Speaker 04

  So the answer as to how to do that came to me from a completely different field that I work in. I'm also a molecular neuroscientist and there

• 38:07Speaker 04

  I found like when you do all these experiments and you really see how the brain changes on a molecular level, the structural brain, like how the brain changes on a structural level from changing the environment. So our brain, we think about our brain as something sheltered inside our skull, but it's really one of the most environmentally sensitive organs in our body. It sends all of our sensor sense, it sends all of our sensors, like these tendrils that constantly survey the environment. It's very, very sensitive to the environment. So the idea is to create an enriched

• 38:43Speaker 04

  secure environment for yourself. So for example, if you have an anxious attachment style, you're very sensitive to those semis that are not carp, that are not consistent, available and responsive. And but remember, I told you that we tend to, our brain tends to sort of really go, especially for people who are anxious, really goes to the areas that to those people who are not carp and try to correct that or engage with that. While all the while, there's all these secure people that are there that you can interact with, but you neglect because your brain goes where all the sort of drama happens.

• 39:24Speaker 04

  And that's also part of your world belief that this is how relationships are. So the brain kind of like ignores the other thing. And I say, no. You have to go and you have to take an in, you look at your relationships and take an inventory. And, and I'm not just talking about your romantic partner, I'm talking about your friends. Other people in your life, are they carp? And if they're not carp, then I, I sort of suggest then maybe try to do a carp intervention. I call it a carp intervention, it's kind of like explain to them about the Sable effect, about all these different things. Uh, cause oftentimes people go into their history, oh, I'm reacting like that because I was like this or like that in, in childhood. But I find that it, it's really wired into our brain.

• 40:10Speaker 04

  Uh, it doesn't necessarily have to come from childhood. And so you can explain to them and give them a chance to be more carp. And the truth is, many of us, and that's what also the theory shows, that we have these secure kernels inside us. Like some experiences that we have today, even now, the, the secure people around us or growing up of, uh, really, really secure moments that we've had with the different people in our lives. In, in, in the book Secure, I start the book by telling about this vacation that I, this summer vacation that I went to with my sister's friend and her mother. And her mother Ruth was amazingly secure. And I still, I still remember that, I, even now, when I think about it, I get goosebumps

• 40:55Speaker 04

  because that was such an amazing vacation. But part of it because it was, Ruth was so secure. And she, that affected me to the core. So you can sort of tap into those, uh, secure, uh, kernels inside people and try to summon it to come out by telling them about what it means to be carp. And if they can learn and become more that way, then you've achieved, you sort of, you, you, you're trying to create a, like a secure village to yourself. Then that's great, you recruited another person. But what I'd also say is that if they can't do it. I don't say you don't have to cut off ties with them, but maybe, I mean, better to give them less priority in your life. So they don't sort of board on group number one or two.

• 41:40Speaker 04

  They they get they don't get priority boarding to your to your plane. They're bored like, I don't know, group number eight.

• 41:46Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. So let's walk through the cart model in a little bit more detail. I want to really understand what these the five different qualities mean with the language that you're using. So consistency, availability, responsiveness, reliability, and predictability. Talk me through each one of these and what do you actually mean by them?

• 42:04Speaker 04

  So consistent, the brain, our brain, our attachment system is like a surveillance system. It's it's really what people like, do you like, it's a way, it's the way that we feel safe in the world. People think, oh, if I have a lot of money in the bank, if I have a condo, that's how I'm going to feel safe. But that's not how our emotional brain feels safe because our emotional brain wasn't created when these things were around. It was created when other other people like me were around and that's how and it computes. So it started the level that if I if you and I were sitting in the same room, just by the sheer fact that you're sitting next to me, that reduces my chance of being becoming prey by 50%.

• 42:48Speaker 04

  Because it's either gonna go, they're gonna go after you or after me and sort of that's, I can run away. But that's huge and the brain knows it. But the human brain goes a step further. Not only the human brain, also social birds, by the way, it's very fascinating. There's all these experiments in social birds and how there's this senses capability that it can, our brain senses that others are around us and we feel safer that way. Think about walking in a dark alley by yourself or with someone else. Immediately you feel better if you were someone else. So that's one thing. And then, uh, but then the other thing, our brain can really assess the quality of the relationship.

• 43:30Speaker 04

  So that's an upgrade that we got as human, the quality of their relationship. And if the quality is better, then we feel safer. So the consistency is a way for us to assess the quality of the relationship. There is like, people show up for us in a consistent way and the brain monitors for that. So if you text someone every day and all of a sudden you, if someone texts you every day and all of a sudden they stop texting you, immediately you'll notice it because that's what we were programmed to notice it. Or, but if they texted you once a week, you're not going to notice that they haven't texted you every day. Because you create this level, this baseline. So that's where the consistency is. It's about that attachment homeostasis, a baseline that's created. That's one thing.

• 44:12Speaker 04

  And then the availability, it's an internal decision. Once you understand how important it is to be consistent and that also that we depend on one another for emotional well-being, uh, that we think about the Searball effect and how much we respond to, to sort of potential disconnect from others. Then you have to make an internal decision that you're going to be available to the people in your life. Um, and I, um, so we can say even to the immediate people in your life. But if you think about those semis and connection, even nodding and saying hello to the elevator to someone, uh, that also increases that feeling of hyper connectedness, which kind of like is the opposite of the Searball effect.

• 44:57Speaker 04

  So you have to make a decision to be available to the people in your life. So that's, uh, and then consistently available, responsive. And so the responsiveness is sort of the actual act of that availability, right? Once you make that decision, if they reach out to you, then you respond to them. So that's kind of like seals the consistent, available and responsive. But it's not enough that I will feel, oh, I'm so car, I'm so great. No, no, no, it's not enough. It's a, it's a two-way street. It's a two-factor authentication model. You need to make sure that the other person actually experiences you that way. That they experience you as reliable, someone who shows up in a reliable way and predictable. That you don't all of a sudden ghost them in a jarring way.

• 45:42Speaker 04

  So then that seals the deal. It's kind of like, you have to be car, but you have to make sure that the other person actually perceives you as reliable and predictable. And then you're carp. And that's sort of like the five pillars of a secure connection. And what it does, I didn't tell you with that cyberball experiment. They also did the opposite experiment where it's called the reverse cyberball. So now you're standing in the middle and you're throwing the ball to someone, they're throwing it back to you, you turn around, you're throwing to the other guy, they throw it back to you. And you're always hyper, so you're hyper included. And they find that it actually has all these amazing, it's kind of like the opposite. It has this amazing effect.

• 46:25Speaker 04

  It makes you feel more self-esteem, that life is more meaning and that you're more in control. So that being hyper included, really the brain loves it as much as the brain loads that disconnect, it loves being included. So I, I thought, I really thought for a long time, how do I create that immersive, hyper-inclusive way? And that's where I'm going to keep up with those carp semis. You really want to try to make as many as your carp semis to create that amazing things. And think about like, how amazing it is to sort of like with those little, in little increments to increase your self-esteem, that life is more meaningful, all of these good things that can happen when you feel this sense of connection around us.

• 47:12Jonathan Fields?

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• 47:56Jonathan Fields?

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• 48:38Jonathan Fields?

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• 49:53Jonathan Fields?

  So I mean, and it's kind of, it sounds like it would be a two-way street where, yes, you would like to be on the receiving end of the consistency and the availability and responsiveness and the reliability and predictability. And you also want to show up that way for others.

• 50:06Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, of course.

• 50:08Jonathan Fields?

  There's going to be like the expectation of, you know, you can't just sort of like be on the receiving end of all of this and expect everything to be awesome.

• 50:14Speaker 04

  No, no, it all has to be reciprocal, of course.

• 50:17Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, yeah. And doing this, again, not in these big, grand gestures, which might be fine, might be great, like, hey, that's awesome. But it also feels like it takes the pressure off of it when you talk about these semis, these seemingly insignificant minor interactions, because you're kind of like, I can literally, you know, it can be the barista, you know, like just acknowledging them and saying hi and remembering their name and this. You know, it can be just these random people that you pass through or that you interact with on a regular or somebody really close to you, but just like a moment that neither of you would identify as being like a big moment, but it's just, it matters. You know, it's like these little innocuous things that really aren't innocuous and they're opportunities for us if we start to look at them that way.

• 51:00Speaker 04

  Yes, I love that you said that they're opportunities because that's exactly it. It's not just something that's nice for us to have.

• 51:06Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 51:06Speaker 04

  Because again, when people come to therapy, they think, I need to talk about like the things that happened to me child or like the big events that happened in my life. And they rarely think about those semis as a vehicle for change in the brain. But really, like each and every semi is an opportunity for you to rewire those expectations where like if you create, if you know. Make all these secure people a priority for you. Let's say you're anxious. And now you're like, instead of like, why are you not texting me? You actually, instead of like, doing that, it's like, oh, this person always texts me, but I never text them because I'm like, let me start conversing with them. And all of a sudden,

• 51:46Speaker 04

  you develop a different back and forth. And it's just like, and your brain rewires on that because it's, attachment styles are also, they're called working models. It's a set of expectations that we build around certain beliefs about the world. But now you're giving, you're giving your brain uh different data. It's like, wow, actually, people do show up for me on a regular basis. Actually, I am lovable. Actually, relationships are not that fragile. They're actually very, very um stable. And all of a sudden, your brain is getting all that information in little bits, but over time. And that's the, that's the beauty of that uh um enrichment idea of, and it changes the brain on a structural level.

• 52:32Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm. Um. And it takes time, you know, it's not like, hey, try this, and you're like, once a month and see, it's, it's, it sounds like what you're describing is more of, can I make this a practice? You know, can I just, just, just see if I can repeat it on a regular basis because it's through that repetition that you start to gain the evidence that your brain needs to be like, oh, wait. That original assumption about danger or flakiness or anger or, you know, like abandonment. And like in all these little micro moments, it's being disproven. And eventually, over time, that's going to start to say, oh, like, maybe that initial assumption wasn't founded in something that.

• 53:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, it just like gets rewritten. That's the beauty of it.

• 53:12Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, it's like re encoded. Um. Another thing that pops into my mind, and this is actually something I recall you wrote about, is there's no, okay, so let's say we're doing this work. We're, we're looking for the semis. We're, we're adapting this cart model and really, really trying to operationalize this in our relationships and our life. And it's kind of working like we're, we feel like we're dropping into that secure mode on a regular basis.

• 53:37Jonathan Fields?

  And then like that person who you regularly feel pretty secure around, they're feeling secure around you.

• 53:44Jonathan Fields?

  There's a fight, you know, and

• 53:48Jonathan Fields?

  I would imagine there's this assumption to say, like, oh, that, that, this, no security, like, this was never, this was all an illusion. This is fake. But.

• 53:58Jonathan Fields?

  It doesn't like conflict doesn't mean that security doesn't mean that there's never any conflict.

• 54:04Speaker 04

  No, of course not. Do you remember I told you the story of the the secure person who stormed out?

• 54:08Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 54:08Speaker 04

  And then two minutes later. So that's why I have, like in, I think, the last chapter of the book, I have this um I have these two rules of secure engagement.

• 54:17Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 54:18Speaker 04

  And um and and because you really have to understand that attachment has its own logic. It's a very different logic than the logic that we're used to. But we, it's not a very complicated logic. It's just a different logic and it's a pre-verbal logic. It's not, because attachment formed way before language formed. Like we get attached to our mothers and others like we, like, it's just like, it's, it's pre-verbal. And so if we understand what the function of a secure relationship is, then that really helps us understand these true rules. So the function of a secure relationship is to keep our um is to regulate our emotions. Because we are heavily social species.

• 55:02Speaker 04

  And one of the most powerful ways for us to regulate our emotions is through a connection with a secure person. Because think about if something bad happened to you. Uh, I would imagine, unless you're avoidant, um, but most people, there's like rest of the seventy-five percent of the population. There's usually like, but even avoiding something really bad happened to them. You'll know, there's like, we have an attachment hierarchy. You know who is that number one person you're gonna go turn to immediately? And try to talk to, and then if they're not there, there's probably number two and number three. Uh, but we know immediately. And oftentimes, when those people are there for us, sometimes a single word, or even just a hug, can make us feel better so quickly.

• 55:43Speaker 04

  There's no like Vanax or Klonopin in this world that can work as fast because we're like deeply engraved social species, and that's how we feel safe. But on the other hand, insecure attachment interactions are one of the most potent instigators of emotional upset. So attachment really is the basis of like suffering and healing from suffering. So if we understand that a secure relationship is important to our, to the function of it, we're both responsible to keep the other person emotion at bay. Then we get into a fight. So based on that, there's a, the number one rule is that only one person is allowed to be upset at the time.

• 56:23Speaker 04

  Because the other person is supposed, like their function is to help them, to help the other regular their feelings. So in that example, he got upset and she was like really upset that he left the room. So he decided, I'm not going to be upset, I'm going to be responsible, I'm going to come back and make it better. Only one person is allowed to be upset at this time. It's very hard to maintain. I always say that, knowing that it's almost impossible to maintain because we, when we attach to other people, we create one physiology. Like it's very hard to keep that barrier. Once you feel that someone else is upset, even if they didn't do anything, like you get upset too. Because they, their emotions reverberate between us.

• 57:05Speaker 04

  So, but sometimes what happens is they say, hey, wait a second, there's that rule. I was upset first, you're not supposed to be upset and couple like they start laughing about it. But let's say that didn't work and now both are upset. So the second rule, I call it the mea culpa rule, like it's my fault. So think about it. If now you're both upset, you both have failed your function of sort of maintaining the other like emotional equilibrium. So now, mea culpa, you both have to apologize for your role in disrupting the attachment, sort of like homeostasis and quiet. And sometimes it's like, like people try to go, no, but I was right or there was right. Attachment doesn't care about that.

• 57:49Speaker 04

  It doesn't care about all the words that come up. Because oftentimes the words are just concealing something like much deeper need for just reassurance and to help me feel better. It's like two cats on a tree hissing at each other and not knowing how to come down from the tree. Someone needs to come down from the tree and help the other. So that's why, oh both, so both need to apologize, you're both responsible. And it doesn't matter, like who was right and who was wrong. You can talk about it later, once you both have calmed down your attachment system. And oftentimes later, it doesn't even matter so much anymore.

• 58:26Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 58:28Jonathan Fields?

  What are you actually apologizing for in that moment?

• 58:31Speaker 04

  You're apologizing for, I'm glad that you asked that, for not keeping up. It's almost like a secure connection is you're making a commitment to be consistent, available and responsive. So like to be, to take care of the other people's, other person's emotions. And if you fail to do it, then he's upset and now you're upset. And he failed to like find a way to keep you less upset. You both hurt sort of that promise to each other, that ability to do the back and forth. And by you both apologizing for not keeping up that, to that role,

• 59:14Speaker 04

  then you're actually realizing something much deeper, that it doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong here. There's a deeper role that's much more important of helping each other feel more calm. And then things can be worked out much more easily. But if you're like, no, I'm not gonna apologize. I was like, since sometimes it's not about words. It's about giving a hug.

• 59:36Speaker 04

  Or it's just like, like the one really good example, and I told you, it's not only in romantic relationships. It's like my, my brother in law. He's a very difficult person and he sometimes says, he's not very difficult, he's actually very nice, but he can say hurtful things to people. And he does it to all of his family. There's a very large family. But one time he said something very hurtful to me and I got upset. And I got up and I said, you know what? I don't wanna stay here, I'm leaving. And he said, oh, I'm so sorry. And like, and he grabbed me and he like, it's big guy. And he hugged me, it's really hard. I was trying to get away, but he wouldn't let me get away. And then he said, I'm sorry, and he hugged me. And then he just dissipated. The whole upset because I saw how much he cared. And he's just like, and then, yeah, and he was fine. So sometimes even just like a hug,

• 1:00:21Speaker 04

  it's not about only language and it's actually, a lot of it is pre-language. It can make a huge difference.

• 1:00:28Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, that now I like I'm I'm thinking about opportunities to try these things out, you know, in my in my own life. And like you said, not just in a in that, you know, an intimate relationship, but with friends, with colleagues, with people that you just work with on a regular basis. I think it's a really interesting sort of thing to explore, to experiment with, especially if you're somebody that feels like you're not getting what you need, you're not getting the feelings that you need. And realizing that there are environmental changes, that there are relational changes, that can actually help you feel what you want to feel on a more regular basis.

• 1:01:06Speaker 04

  Right. And I think one really another really important thing is that people who have an anxious attachment style often have, I like to say, both the need and the ability for a lot of closeness. And sometimes the one person may not be enough. Or and sometimes they say sometimes that's why I think about creating that secure village. We are highly, highly social species, and we're now living like more in the more isolated sort of bubbles. And even just like that one person may not be enough. And it's actually and I'm glad that you said it takes practice because I really end the sort of the book Secure with sort of like, like, the the last part is like your secure practice.

• 1:01:45Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 1:01:45Speaker 04

  But it doesn't sound that what I try to say there, I mean, it's not a bad practice. What's wrong with sort of like making more like secure connections, like really in sort of and finding calling them everywhere like or texting those secure people in your life and getting those texts back and creating all those amazing security means like we our brain loves it and we love it. There's nothing difficult about it. It's actually really a lot of fun. And I think that I was thinking a lot lately about this whole research about loneliness and how much

• 1:02:18Speaker 04

  Do people feel lonely because of lack of connection to others? And how much they feel lonely because they are connected insecurely to others, which can really instigate a lot of difficult feelings. So it's not enough to just connect to others, like to feel all that sort of like the self-esteem and all those like it's the secure connection is really what makes us open up to the world. Because there's a direct link between attachment and exploratory drive. You see it in children, like they bring them in the room full of toys. They'll play with all the toys. Every once in a while, they look at their mom and then, but their mom is in the background. But the minute the mom leaves the room and they can't see her anymore, they don't want to play anymore. They become hyper focused on the mom.

• 1:03:02Speaker 04

  So we're as adults, we don't play with toys anymore, but we parent, we have hobbies, we work. And so when we have that secure base and like when we check those scenes, check to see they're there and they're there, then it gives us the freedom to soar. It really makes a huge difference.

• 1:03:17Jonathan Fields?

  That makes so much sense to me. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So I always wrap it the same question in this container of Good Life Project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

• 1:03:30Speaker 04

  Oh, definitely to live a secure life.

• 1:03:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, I would definitely say that.

• 1:03:36Jonathan Fields?

  Thank you.

• 1:03:37Speaker 04

  Thanks a lot.

• 1:03:40Jonathan Fields?

  Hey, before you leave, be sure to tune in next week for an episode with me about what I call the Unbusy Manifesto and the six daily practices that will help you reclaim your time and your sanity and maybe just your life. Be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss any upcoming episodes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Chris Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still here.

• 1:04:22Jonathan Fields?

  Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor, and share it with just one person. If you want to share it with Hey, that's awesome. But just one person, even then, invite them to talk with you about what you both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

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