Brené Brown | Why Courage Matters More Than Comfort

Showing up as your true self is terrifying, but it’s also the unlock key for so much of what makes your life good. Through powerful stories and research-backed insights, this conversation reveals why showing up as your real self unlocks extraordinary possibilities, and how embracing imperfection creates deeper connections than striving for perfection ever could. Whether you're leading a team, raising children, or pursuing creative work, you'll discover practical tools for choosing courage over comfort and building genuine connections in a world that often fears being real. You can find Brené at: Website https://brenebrown.com/ | Instagram https://www.instagram.com/brenebrown/ | Brené's Podcasts https://brenebrown.com/podcasts/ | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/brene-brown-vulnerability-authenticity-wholehearted If you LOVED this episode, you’ll also love the conversations we had with Elizabeth Gilbert https://pod.link/goodlifeproject/episode/NjRmMjJkZmE3NDhhMDQwMDExZDVlMWFj about bringing your whole self to your life. Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the Wheel https://jonathanfields.substack.com/aboutVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  One of the things that I say that maybe pisses people off more than anything else I say, whether it's leaders, parents, is that we cannot give people what we don't have. And we can't ask people to do what we're not doing. And that makes people crazy. And I get it as a parent, especially because, you know, when I tell parents, you can't raise a child with a greater sense of resilience than your own. You can't raise a child with more self-compassion than what you have. They get twitchy, they get crunchy and yeah. But when I tell people, I'm not sure that you can love a child more than you love yourself. People get hostile.

• 0:38Jonathan Fields?

  So what if daring to be open and real unlock not just your greatest potential, but also pretty much everything good in every relationship or experience you could ever have? What if the thing that so many of us fear most, that others will discover how flawed and human and real we are, is actually the gateway to the life we so desperately want to live? And what if choosing courage over comfort opened the doors to a world and a life you never imagined? These are just some of the questions that I dive into with Brene Brown. So Brene has spent the last two decades studying the transformational power of vulnerability. Author of six number one New York Times bestsellers,

• 1:20Jonathan Fields?

  Brene's really inspiring research on courage, worthiness, and shame has enlightened millions worldwide. And a research professor at University of Houston, she's a leading voice on topics like empathy, resilience, and living a wholehearted life. Her groundbreaking TED Talk on the power of vulnerability has now been viewed over 60 million times. And I really love Brene's ability to translate complicated academic concepts into just accessible language and stories. And speaking of stories, she is a deeply compelling storyteller who will draw you in, then open your heart in no small part by sharing hers with you first. In fact, the conversation that unfolded between us moved both of us to tears at various points.

• 2:03Jonathan Fields?

  Brene was so beautifully real, raw, candid, and wise. As a best of episode, every part of this conversation. Is as relevant today, maybe more so given the current climate than it was the day we talked. As Brene notes, there is incredible power in the willingness to be seen in owning our stories. We can own our lives, a willingness to face uncertainty, vulnerability and emotional exposure together is what allows communities to truly connect. So listen in as Brene and I explore the courage and compassion that emerge when we dare to be open, real and seen. The conversation that unfolded really did leave me changed and perhaps it will inspire you to pursue an idea you've kept to yourself for too long.

• 2:47Jonathan Fields?

  So excited to share this best of conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com slash bank. Capital One, N A, Member FDIC.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  You've got big plans for your money. You invest, you track, you plan ahead, but does your financial app actually help you decide what to do next? Quicken helps you go beyond balances and basic reports. Project your cash flow, dig into your investments and use Quicken AI to understand what matters across your finances. With Quicken, you can make sense of your options and decide what to do next. Quicken, know what to do next. See how at quicken.com.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 4:31Jonathan Fields?

  Awesome to have you here with Esper.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  I'm excited to be here. Thank you.

• 4:34Jonathan Fields?

  One of my fascinations with you is you present. So like when I first saw your TED Talks, I was blown away, as were millions and billions of people. You present as this radiant, wise, snarky, funny presence. And I'm always curious when I see that in somebody, somebody who's so strong and so powerful and so full of life. Is this something that you sort of like stepped into later in life? Or were you the kid who sort of manifested this also?

• 5:03Speaker 00

  No, I was not, A, definitely I was not the kid. I think I stepped into it much later in life. And I think what I stepped into was understanding that the weird, introverted, pattern seeing person that I was, what I stepped into is a sense of, I like that person.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  And I, and I want to be that person. And but I think I dreaded being that person growing up. I think I thought, oh, something's off base. Because it's not like, you know, I grew up watching, you know, I went to Grease 25 times when it came out. You know, like I wanted to be that person. I wanted to be Olivia Newton-John with a cigarette and a cat suit, you know, winning over John Travolta. Like I didn't want to be the, I didn't think, you know, I'm awesome. I'm 13, I'm going to be a qualitative researcher and study things, scare the shit out of people. Right on. Yeah, I thought like, I want to date with a quarterback. Yeah, because that's how I was raised.

• 6:13Speaker 00

  And so the things that about me that I love now, I were painful probably then. Like I've always seen things in patterns. And I didn't know that there was like a job, like that's what qualitative researchers do. So I just thought maybe I was a part of the underworld or something. Or so I thought it was like, I thought I was weird and I didn't fit in really. So I didn't have a sense of belonging.

• 6:36Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, which, which is probably a more common experience than most people own up to.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that makes me in the majority for sure. Yeah, I just, yeah.

• 6:44Jonathan Fields?

  At what point do you start to realize in your life that that in fact, that does make you in the majority?

• 6:50Speaker 00

  When I started doing this work, I mean, I think that's that's the gift of doing this work is that I know no matter how bleak the feeling, how desperate the feeling, how weird the experience or smell or idea that none of us are alone.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  Some, I did a radio show on Wisconsin Public Radio a couple of days ago and a caller called in and shared a Thich Nhat Hanh quote with me that just brought me to my knees. It said, um, "Our purpose," and I'm kind of probably going to butcher it a little bit, "but our sole purpose here is to get over the illusion of our separateness." You know, and I think that's what my work is. Like, we're all in this together. And I had no idea that the things that made me feel so much on the outside were the things that would ultimately, when I stepped into some self-worth, be the things that connected me the strongest to other people. Does that make sense?

• 7:49Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, I think it does. I'm I'm curious also whether it was an evolutionary experience for you to realize this, or whether there were moments, you know, where there are sort of like decisive moments or experiences with people or things that made you say, "Okay, I'm starting to get that there's a different way to live in the world and I want to be a part of figuring that out."

• 8:10Speaker 00

  No, there was decisive moments. There were, yeah, I'm not like a slow unraveling kind of person as much as I would like to be. No, there was a moment, I mean, I can picture, I know what I was wearing. Like, it was in November of 2006. I was at my, I had a wooden red painted breakfast room table. I was sitting at the table. I was coding a bunch of new data, asking this new question for the first time, going back into the shame data and saying, "Well, okay, I understand what shame is and I understand how that operates in our lives, but what about these men and women who are living wholeheartedly, like, who are really all in? What did they have in common?" And I had giant, you know, those post-it notes that are poster size. I had them all over my kitchen and my

• 8:53Speaker 00

  living room. I was writing down words and basically what emerged from that process were two lists. Like, here are the behaviors that the wholehearted folks are engaging in, and here's what they are trying to let go of. Here's what they're trying to move away from in their lives. And the move away from list was

• 9:11Speaker 00

  It was as if someone described me on a list. Like I was every, I called it the shit list. I was everything on that list. Um, judgmental, perfectionistic, all work. Um, not only no play, no rest, but kind of disregard for play and rest and people who thought it was important.

• 9:30Jonathan Fields?

  So you're coming at it from this like science mind. Let me just figure this out. And then you're looking at it, you're like, oh my, this is personal.

• 9:38Speaker 00

  Oh, I, I was devastated. I couldn't believe it. I just remember folding my hands up on the top of the table and putting my head down and just thinking.

• 9:46Speaker 00

  Because, you know, I think up until that moment, and then the work that followed, I trusted my professional self immensely, but didn't trust my personal self as much. So I knew that I, I know I'm a good researcher. And so I knew if these words were emerging, like these qualities were important, these choices, doing something creative, you know, like that's a great example, like creativity emerged as so important. Comparison emerged as the shame counterpoint to that. And I was in this comparative person, you could, I mean, every, I was always comparing myself to other people. And I was scoffing at creativity. Like people would say, hey, do you want to go do a painting class with me? Or do you want a scrapbook? And up until that moment, I would say, no.

• 10:32Speaker 00

  I thought it was flaky and self indulgent and I'm not going to really do that kind of crap. I'm busy working. So yeah, it was, there was a moment that so shifted.

• 10:41Jonathan Fields?

  So I, I, I actually want to, I want to kind of go a little bit deeper there. But before that, for you use the word wholeheartedness a lot. Talk to me about that. What is it? What do you mean when you use that, that phrase?

• 10:53Speaker 00

  I was trying to figure out a word, one of the, I'm a grounded theory researcher, which means we take, we develop theory from people's lived experiences. And then our primary job is to language it in a way that resonates with people. And so I was trying to figure out what's a word for people that I would describe as all in, who are just really living and loving entirely.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  And wholehearted is language and actually in.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  The Book of Common Prayer that in the Episcopal Church that we use. And there's this line that says, I have not loved you with my whole heart. And that was always very powerful for me when I said it. And so the word that came to mind was wholehearted.

• 11:40Jonathan Fields?

  So which is kind of fascinating right there, too, because you're you're taking some a term which comes from a place, which is very not scientific. It's very faith based.

• 11:49Speaker 00

  Super faith based.

• 11:49Jonathan Fields?

  And then you're bringing it into like your world, which is like totally linear, like prove it or, or, you know, it doesn't matter. You know what happens, you're like, how do you measure that?

• 12:00Speaker 00

  No, it's true. And I've received, I got a lot of flack from it, too.

• 12:04Jonathan Fields?

  From the academic community?

• 12:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:06Jonathan Fields?

  Huh. Just for the use of the term?

• 12:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. You shouldn't name constructs things or that are immeasurable. And so that was hard for me because, you know, one of the things I talk about in the TED Talk is that I used, I had a little sign in my office when I was a doctoral student in teaching that said, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist.

• 12:28Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  And I loved thinking that we could live in that world. Now I have a sign above my study that says, if you can measure it, it's probably not that important.

• 12:36Jonathan Fields?

  I love it. Well, it's like the shadow side.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  It is a shadow side. And so I think, I didn't care at that point. I just felt like I was on to something that was super important for me personally. And it resonated with me and, you know, what else would you call it? Social adaptability? It's not, that's not what I was looking for. I was looking for wholeheartedness.

• 13:01Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And it's something that the common person?

• 13:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:04Jonathan Fields?

  Can, I mean, I'm sure there's, there's enough ambiguity so that people can kind of like say, like, this is how I feel. Wholeheartedness applies in my world and my life. But there's enough universality to the term that I think people just kind of get what it's about.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's my job as a researcher. Like, one of the things, I've never really talked about this before, but I think you're interested. You'd be as, as the uncertainty person, you'd be a great person to talk to about this, that there is, one of the greatest losses, I think, that is happening in our world today is that academics are shamed for accessibility.

• 13:42Speaker 00

  I mean, it makes me teary eyed because it makes me think how much great information we're losing, even whether you buy into it or if it's real or not real, that we're losing the debate and the discourse. Because to be accessible is some kind of really like albatross. It's like, if you're accessible and people understand your work, that means you're not very smart. And so, to me.

• 14:05Jonathan Fields?

  So basically, you're writing only for people that are in rarefied air? And if you're, if the average person on the street can understand that there's something wrong with what you're doing?

• 14:14Speaker 00

  Right. And there's, I mean, and really, there's like interesting journal articles that say, the average academic journal article, the average one, not the one that makes it into the Times or something, is read by 10 people. And then I think eight of them are probably just checking to see if they're referenced in it, you know? And so to me, I had no interest in that for this reason. It's an interesting backstory. When I did the shame research, because I'm a qualitative researcher, I would sit down, like we're sitting down, and collect data and talk to people about their stories. It was the first time I'd ever done research when people, when we were done with the interview, looked at me pleadingly and said, "When you figure this out, you're gonna tell me, right?" And my answer in the beginning was, "No, I'm gonna publish it in something that you'll never have access to."

• 14:57Jonathan Fields?

  Ouch.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  Right, that was my, I didn't say that, but that's what I thought. And then I thought, you know what? I'm not gonna do that anymore. You know, I don't want to, I don't want to spend my time, I mean, I still have to do it, and I probably should do it more, but I don't wanna spend my time doing something that's not, in my opinion, moving people forward. And if I can't pick it up and read it, and my friends can't pick it up and read it, and I have to look up words in the thesaurus to sound smart, I'm not doing it anymore. It's not why I'm here. It's not in service of my work. And my faith is really an organizing principle in my life, and it pushes up against that value.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  So that's kind of how wholehearted. I was scared at first.

• 15:43Jonathan Fields?

  That I would imagine you would be.

• 15:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:45Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, because you're really bringing two worlds together in a way where each world probably has substantial doubt about, sort of like, the validity of the other one. And also, like you said, especially because you operate and you're on your living, like, in an academic setting. So, you know, that's got to bring on a lot of fear. It's like, yeah, am I going to be drawn down in my profession? And am I gonna, like, just, yeah, am I gonna be still there, but I'll be the laughingstock in my profession for the rest of my career? You know, versus, is this work so powerful that it needs, it's the work that I can't not do and it must get out?

• 16:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think it's interesting because grounded theory in itself is very controversial, I think, in a lot of academic places, because, because you don't start with existing theories and prove and disprove them.

• 16:28Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 16:29Speaker 00

  You start from people's lived experiences. You often come up with conclusions that bump up hard against what's already established in literature. So, and I love it because Glaser and Strauss, who developed the, I think they were, like, spirited in terms of my approach. They said, use names that resonate with people. And so, one of the ways we measure the accuracy of our theories is resonance, fit. Do people see themselves in their lives and their stories and the narratives that you're creating with your data? And I love that. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

• 17:02Jonathan Fields?

  Good Life Project is sponsored by Bombas. So, there's this moment every fall here in Boulder. The morning air is crisp, the light goes golden against the mountains, and something in you just wants to slow down, like, soft layers and long walks and a warm mug and a good book. You know, the cozy feeling has just arrived. And cozy really does start at your feet. Bombas just launched new suede moccasins, cushy soles, a shearling lining, and water-resistant suede. So, a little frost on the grass isn't a problem. Our whole family's sock drawers are basically shrines to Bombas, have been for years. Merino wool for chilly mornings, sports socks for when we get out and move, and compression socks for long travel days, which I'm actually about to have. Opening that drawer, they're just a

• 17:45Jonathan Fields?

  ripe pair for whatever the day holds. But the other thing- That has kept me a Bombas fan for all of these years. For every item you buy, Bombas donates an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased, one donated. Over 200 million donations and counting. So head over to Bombas.com/goodlife and use the code GOODLIFE for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash good life, code GOODLIFE at checkout. Good Life Project is sponsored by Sequencing. So in midlife, we start noticing some of the things our parents carried and how they're showing up in their health and their lives and wondering what we're carrying too. Sequencing.com can help.

• 18:26Jonathan Fields?

  According to sequencing, most popular DNA tests read about a tenth of 1% of your DNA. Sequencing.com reads all 3.2 billion positions and screens for genetic variants linked to over 15,000 diseases, conditions, and traits. That can mean catching inherited risks early and understanding how certain medications may affect you so you can talk it through with your doctor. Just swab your cheek, mail it back, and their CLIA certified, CAP accredited US lab handles the rest. Clinical grade, not novelty grade. Your DNA doesn't change, but what we know about it does. So they keep reanalyzing your genome against new research for as long as you remember, and they never sell or share your data ever.

• 19:07Jonathan Fields?

  Right now, Sequencing.com is offering our listeners up to 10% off your full genome test plus free shipping. Go to Sequencing.com and use the promo code GOODLIFE for 10% off. That's Sequencing.com promo code GOODLIFE. That's S-E-Q-U-E-N-C-I-N-G.com promo code GOODLIFE.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N A Member FDIC.

• 20:04Jonathan Fields?

  The entrepreneur in me and the writer in me looks at that model. And that's actually, that's the model that actually builds the most successful businesses. But it's the exact opposite model that most entrepreneurs start with. Most entrepreneurs get an idea for product or service or solution, and then they go looking for a market.

• 20:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 20:20Jonathan Fields?

  And they're like, okay, who are the people that we can sell this to? And whereas, you know, rather than saying, okay, let me just reach out to a community that I feel like I want to be in service of and have really deep, intense conversations with them. And maybe I'm part of that community. You know, so let me start with my own experience and then with the experience of people in this community and find out what are they feeling, what are they not feeling? What's the conversation that's already going on in their head? And can I build messaging and solutions around that in a way that can be, make me of further service to them? And in doing so, create a living, a career, a business that, that builds around that. And in my experience, I love that.

• 21:02Jonathan Fields?

  Those are the people where not only individually do you really come alive, but those are the businesses that have profound impact in the world and that kind of catch fire. Because you're, you're not trying to sell something to anybody. You're simply caring about them so deeply that you take the time to understand what they need and then just giving it to them. And so many times, people don't do that. And so really, so from the business side, it's this, it's this interesting overlay with what you're saying, the approach to how you research.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  I have never thought about that until this exact second. But I love that. And I think it's exactly grounded theory because what's interesting, I never thought it, entrepreneurship, I think of, I've got some, a really cool thing.

• 21:45Jonathan Fields?

  Right, exactly. I mean, go find somebody who wants it.

• 21:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. But in grounded theory, there's, the whole, the whole thing is, it's called trust and emergence is the axiom. Trust in what emerges from the data. Trust in people's lived experiences and their perception of those experiences. But what you do is you, the goal of grounded theory is to find out what is the main concern of a group of people you want to know, know more about? And then your theory should explain how they're trying to continually resolve that concern. So it's very much in line.

• 22:19Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:20Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, it's, it's kind of like-

• 22:21Speaker 00

  Very entrepreneurship. I like it.

• 22:22Jonathan Fields?

  No, it is. I mean, like the, the really good entrepreneurs know that, you know, you come in and you're probably gonna start out, you know, you, there's, we're human beings, so there's no way we can start the process without certain assumptions.

• 22:32Speaker 00

  Right.

• 22:33Jonathan Fields?

  You know, like they're, they're just gonna be there.

• 22:36Jonathan Fields?

  But the most successful people will always be the ones that are open to serendipity, or open to the market proving them wrong. And then listening to what the market says is right. And then deciding whether they actually want to create that or not.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  The exact same.

• 22:48Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. So it's, it's got, now I want to learn more about like, sort of like your whole methodology.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  No, I will, I'll give you something on it because it's exactly the same. And in fact, you evaluate a theory that's a grounded theory. One of the, one of the, the codes we live by is, and it's so much in line with entrepreneurship now that you pointed this incredible thing out.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  A theory can never be as good, is, is only as good as its ability to work new data.

• 23:17Speaker 00

  So like a business-

• 23:18Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  Would only be as good as its ability to address the evolving and changing needs of the market, right?

• 23:24Jonathan Fields?

  Which is where a lot of big, bigger companies get in huge trouble. Because they started, and maybe they were actually really certain, they understood the pain points, the needs of a market when they started, and they served it beautifully. But markets aren't stationary, you know, like things, they're living, breathing beasts that move and change and morph. Especially in the last four or five years, we've seen that in a profound way. And I've, I've talked to so many people who are, who are past the, what you'd probably consider a class of entrepreneurs, like real big established businesses. And their, their businesses are shrinking fast, and they're just thinking, we're going under, you know, rather than,

• 24:00Jonathan Fields?

  well, no, actually, all the assumptions that we built around are no longer valid. So we actually, we don't have to just keep trying to, you know, like work on that same model. We can actually look for where the pain points and the conversations have moved to. And see if we can adapt what we do and how we do it to that, those new needs.

• 24:21Jonathan Fields?

  A lot of people don't want to do that. They're so vested in the way things work.

• 24:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 24:25Jonathan Fields?

  And they, they are terrified. And, and this is, I'm so curious what you think about this also.

• 24:32Jonathan Fields?

  Most people who start businesses, they start them and they accept that there's a certain amount of uncertainty and risk and fear and anxiety and all this stuff and failure. And very often it's because, part of the dynamic is they don't have a whole lot to lose in the beginning.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  Right.

• 24:44Jonathan Fields?

  Then they build something substantial. Now they do have a lot to lose. So when I was talking about like that business that now has to adapt to a whole different thing, now that they're in a place where they don't have, there's a lot to lose if they, you know, sort of like guess wrong or they don't, they become incredibly fearful in a way that they didn't, or they're not able to move through the fear and the change and the uncertainty in a way that they were much more able to when they started a business. Really ties in, I think, with a lot of your exploration of vulnerability.

• 25:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're gonna be hard pressed to get me shaking loose this parallel between business and I'm so obsessed with it now. It's so fascinating because, you know, the axiom again of trust in the emergence is, I think what I've seen in my experience talking to businesses and talking to not just entrepreneurs but big corporations, is they don't, they don't trust in the process that brought them success.

• 25:41Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 00

  They start to trust in the product of the process.

• 25:46Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 25:47Speaker 00

  Right?

• 25:48Jonathan Fields?

  Yep.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  And they lose their trust for the process, which is trust in emergence, trust the people you're serving. And so the same is true with researchers. Like for me, the minute I say, I don't care what emerges from this interview with Jonathan, I've already got a theory out there in the academic literature, this has got to hold up. And the minute I shift, my work is dead.

• 26:05Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 26:06Speaker 00

  It no longer rings true, it's not innovative, it's not exciting. And so, but Barney Glaser, one of the founders of grounded theory, calls it the drugless trip. You have to have a real, you have to have a real comfort with uncertainty and vulnerability to do the kind of research I do. You lose a lot, like I mentor a lot of doctoral students and sit on a lot of dissertations for grounded theory folks who get halfway through and think, this is too uncertain.

• 26:34Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  I want to go back to the take an existing theory, prove or just prove it with data, write it up, be done. I don't want to do, I don't want to trust an emergence and let something new and that we haven't talked about yet emerge. I don't have the stomach for it.

• 26:50Jonathan Fields?

  Nah.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  You know, and so, so for me, the vulnerability piece, and I get that because I was that person. And so.

• 26:58Jonathan Fields?

  I think we're all that person.

• 27:00Speaker 00

  We're all that person. Yeah. And that's important because.

• 27:03Jonathan Fields?

  Right. It's not like, you know, I mean, maybe there are these freakish people, you know, they this really thin slice of humanity that just doesn't feel it, or their brains are softwired from the beginning to process it differently. But most of us, it hurts.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  It does hurt. And you know, and to say I wasn't one of those people is exactly against like, I have the four myths of vulnerability. And Darian greatly, and the first one is that it's weakness.

• 27:24Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 27:25Speaker 00

  You know, and I define vulnerability as uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure. And so I think one of the reasons we lose tolerance for it, or we don't, we can't sit with the process is because we've been raised to believe that being vulnerable and walking into a meeting with, you know, funders or whomever, or whatever your situation is and saying, I don't know. I mean, some of the most incredible examples that I read and include in the book are about business people who stand up in front of their leadership and say, I don't know what to do next. And you may know more than I do. I need your help.

• 28:09Speaker 00

  That's powerful.

• 28:10Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And that is the single most terrifying thing that I think any leader

• 28:18Jonathan Fields?

  could do, but also that, you know, like maybe the most powerful thing they could do simultaneously. But like you were saying though, it, people think it's, it's all, if I do that, I'm weak.

• 28:26Speaker 00

  Right. Pete Fuda, who is a leadership, he, he's a researcher in Australia in Sydney, and he studies transformative, transformative leadership. And he does long case studies over five and six years studying leadership and how it transforms with an organization. And he has this great article that was in Harvard Business Review where he uses metaphors to talk about what transformative leaders share in common. And one of them is the snowball. And he's, and he tells the story of a, of a CEO, a new CEO who kind of came aboard and was very directive, very instructive. And things really started unraveling.

• 29:07Speaker 00

  And he decided to kind of risk vulnerability and stood up in front of, brought all those leaders together and said, I'm getting feedback that my style, the way I communicate and give you feedback is, is pushing innovation down. I need your help. I need to know how to be better at this. I need to know how to work with you. And what Pete found in his research, not only in this case, but across the, the cultures he was studying, is that it created this huge snowball effect. If those leaders in turn felt permission to stand with their teams and say, I can't do this without you, and those people, and then it created this thing that took off through the culture. And what it shook loose was, it got so big and fast,

• 29:51Speaker 00

  the momentum of it, that it shook loose all the drag. That people that were not willing to say, I need help, I don't know, I'm in over my head, couldn't hold on anymore in the pressure. Is that fascinating?

• 30:04Jonathan Fields?

  Nah, it's amazing. And it also really speaks to the top down, you know, like idea that it all comes from the people that are at the very tip top. You know, like if that one person, you know, like if, if you have a CEO and, and she or he doesn't actually say, okay, I'm owning this myself, nobody else in our organization will own it. And the reverse is true too. You know, like same snowball effect. If that person steps up and says, yeah, I don't know which way is up right now, but we're all really smart. Let's see if we can figure this out together. I mean, and it's so funny too, because I've had so many conversations, I'm sure you have also with sort of management teams, leadership people, and they're like, well, how do we get the people under us to buy this or to

• 30:47Jonathan Fields?

  act in this way or to create in this way? And like the first question is, well, are you behaving in that way or acting in that way? Like, no, no, no, this isn't about me.

• 30:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 30:57Jonathan Fields?

  It's like, no, actually it is.

• 30:58Speaker 00

  Right.

• 30:59Jonathan Fields?

  You know, everything that you're saying, and this is as a parent, you know this, right?

• 31:03Speaker 00

  That, I mean, that's.

• 31:04Jonathan Fields?

  Like, well, you know, like you can't say, do this if like then you're doing something completely different because your kids are looking and be like, mm-mm.

• 31:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 31:10Jonathan Fields?

  So same thing in organizations. It's the same dynamic, but people don't see that.

• 31:14Speaker 00

  No, I think one of the things that I say that maybe pisses people off more than anything else I say, whether it's leaders, parents, is that we cannot give people what we don't have. And we can't ask people to do what we're not doing. And that makes people crazy. And I get it as a parent, especially because.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  You know, when I tell parents, you can't raise a child with a greater sense of resilience than your own. You can't raise a child with more self compassion than what you have. They're like, they get twitchy, they get crunchy and yeah. But when I tell people, I'm not sure that you can love a child more than you love yourself. People get hostile.

• 31:57Jonathan Fields?

  Nah, I bet.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  Cause people wanna say, you know, that's crazy. I love my kids way more than I love myself.

• 32:04Speaker 00

  And it's often the parents of very young children who say that. What's interesting to me is it's the parents of teens. Who say, oh God, I get that because what happens is. Fourth, fifth grade, certainly middle school, beginning of high school. Would our kids start to become us in some ways? Or we see our partners and things that bug the crap out of us about our partners emerge in our kids are the things that bug us about us. That self compassion or that compassion turns to judgment. Like, what do you mean you didn't have anyone to sit with at lunch? And rather than saying, oh God, I remember that, let's talk about that. You say, well, pull your hair back and wear some of those cute outfits I bought you.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  And then maybe your friends will wanna sit with you. And that's your stuff.

• 32:52Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and I think we've all, it's like, you know, like, as you're saying this, I'm like scanning right now.

• 33:00Jonathan Fields?

  I'm like, okay, I like consider myself a pretty, you know, like compassionate, you know, like open guy. And I'm like, I'm sure there've been so many things where I've just reacted without even realizing that I'm reacting. Because of a cap on my own capability to deal with my own stuff. And it's manifesting in my response to other people. Like, you know, which is.

• 33:19Jonathan Fields?

  It's not easy to own that.

• 33:21Speaker 00

  No, and I've done it. I mean, you know, it's, people say, well, we can't all be, you know. Shame free all the time like you. And I'm, I think to myself, I've never been a parent and not been a shame researcher. I mean, I started just around the time my daughter was born, right before. And I've done it. Because.

• 33:42Speaker 00

  We're human. And I think that's why I think, you know, I talk a lot about the gifts of imperfect parenting. I think it's those moments where, I mean, I remember telling Ellen one time. She, she was doing this whole thing about, she wore a side ponytail. She came home with a different ponytail. I said, hey, what happened to your side ponytail? She said, oh, I took it out because my friends thought it looked terrible. And I said, but I thought you loved it. And she said, yeah, but, you know, they gave me a hard time. And so I went into the whole, like, you have to do what you love, not what other people think. And then five minutes later, I'm telling Steve, you've got to pull the Christmas lights out of the yard. What are my neighbors gonna think? And Ellen's five feet away from me, you know, and she said, I don't understand. I said, you understand what?

• 34:28Speaker 00

  She was, the ponytail, the lights. You know, I'm like,

• 34:32Jonathan Fields?

  She's keeping you honest.

• 34:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm like, oh, my God, you're right. It's just rhetoric. You know, if I tell my daughter, your body's beautiful, you know, our value probably be to say something like, this is the body that I gave you. And it's strong and wonderful and, you know, and then she walks in and I'm using a lot of hateful self-talk about my jeans not fitting. Which one do you think matters the most? But it's the same with leaders, you know? If leaders say to teams, you know, hey, we want innovation, so we'll expect failure. Fail often, fail quick, clean it up and move on.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  But they see a leader scared to death of failing, scared of trying, scared of being uncertain or vulnerable. Then the message is, that other stuff is lip service. This is about perfection, and even if it stifles creativity, we can't be wrong.

• 35:31Jonathan Fields?

  Right. So one, so one of the big things is that people perceive vulnerability as weakness. And, and it seems like the answer is you gotta own the change. And you, you basically have to say, okay, yep. But I mean, how do you do that? I mean, if you're somebody where you're, you know, let's say you're a leader, you're a parent, you're just a creator, you're an artist. You know, and you want to do something and, and you're terrified of being vulnerable. Your human being living in the world is terrified of, of opening up and revealing who you are. You know, like going into the uncertainty, the risk.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 36:07Jonathan Fields?

  How do you make that jump?

• 36:10Speaker 00

  Well, I think, I think the first place is, I mean, and it may be different whether you're a cognitive person or a feel your way through person, but I think for those of us who think first and feel second, which would be me, um, I think getting clear on what vulnerability is and isn't is really important. For this reason, 12 years of research, I cannot find a single example of courage, of moral courage, spiritual courage, leadership courage. I cannot find a single example in our data of courage that was not based on sheer vulnerability.

• 36:45Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 36:46Speaker 00

  And so I think one of the things we have to do, first of all, is dispel these myths. I mean, and get clear in our values. I mean, for me, I don't, it doesn't hurt less when I get criticized. When I put myself out there, or when you put yourself out there, people who are trying to, you know, during great least from the Roosevelt quote.

• 37:05Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  You know.

• 37:07Jonathan Fields?

  One of my favorite quotes, by the way. As soon as I saw it, I was like, I know where that's from.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  You do?

• 37:12Jonathan Fields?

  Totally.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  I love that. Yeah. It's not the critic who counts. It's not the man who points at the strong man as he stumbles, or how the, you know, points out how the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit goes to those of us who are in the arena, who, I mean, to totally paraphrase, getting hurt, their asses kicked sometimes, falling on our faces, failing.

• 37:31Speaker 00

  Sometimes victorious, but at least when we're failing, we're doing greatly. I think when I talk to people who've made the transition from, I really want to put these homemade journals on Etsy, but I'm really afraid to do that. I really want to ask my boss for this promotion or this raise. I really want to share this idea at the PTO meeting next week. When I asked people, where did you muster up the courage? How'd you script the courage to do this? The answer was, always, I got very clear that being courageous was more important to me as a value than succeeding.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  And so to me, it comes down to an area of your work that I think is so important, really serious intention setting and very clear values alignment. You know, and I think it is very necessary to have people in our lives who, when we dare greatly, when we're vulnerable, when we try something new, and it doesn't work out, and we come up short, who are willing to look at us and say, but you were brave.

• 38:45Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I think those people, having those people around you are so, and that's, I'm sure you've experienced the same thing. I've had so many conversations with people where they said, I don't have those people.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:56Jonathan Fields?

  What do I do? Because every time I do this, like, everybody around me lines up and says, told you so, you're an idiot. You know, like, I knew you were gonna fail. And, um, which is, which is kind of interesting because to me, one of the potential great equalizers there is technol, the potential to use technology to flatten the world and find people like that. Um, and it's not the same thing as the people who live in your neighborhood you can hug and kiss and like, just have a cup of coffee with and it's not the same. I would love to say it is because, you know, like, I live and breathe in that world a lot.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:27Jonathan Fields?

  It's not. Um, but I think it helps it to have access to a small group of people who may be dotted in, you know, five different countries, but they're deeply committed to each other and share the same values. So to me, I've seen that help people who live in a small town somewhere and are in a family where there were that approach to life is completely rejected. Um, but I think, I think it's a very, it's a tough problem. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Ah, fall, that cozy season where we swap the swimwear for sweaters and sunnies for scars. But before the Halloween decorations are put away or Thanksgiving table has been set,

• 40:11Jonathan Fields?

  there's already holly jolly music playing in the grocery store, reminding you that the year is coming to a close. Time to kick end of year into high gear. When you use Apple Card with Apple Pay, you earn 2% daily cash back on all purchases, including food, decorations. Gifts and more. Get a head start on your end of year purchases. Apply for your Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today and start using it right away with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. Good Life Project is sponsored by TinCan. So if you grew up in the 70s or 80s, you probably still remember your best friend's

• 40:54Jonathan Fields?

  phone number and stretching the kitchen phone cord around the corner for privacy. Our executive producer Lindsay wanted that same freedom for her kids, eight and 10. So in January, she got them a TinCan. Now, friends call the house to chat, make plans and check in without borrowing her phone. They even keep a handwritten phone book next to it. I kind of love that. TinCan is the new school way for kids to talk with their friends. It's a secure landline that lets them call all their favorite people, but with parental controls to keep them protected. No screens, no algorithms, no texting, just a phone being a phone. Kids can only call or be called by people on your approved list. Calls to other TinCans and 911 are always free.

• 41:36Jonathan Fields?

  And there's even an answering machine for messages that are, I'm told, gloriously ridiculous. Go to tincan.com/goodlife to get $10 off your first order, exclusive for our listeners. That's tincan.com/goodlife for $10 off. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show. Tincan.com/goodlife.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com/bank. Capital One, N A, Member FDIC.

• 42:33Jonathan Fields?

  One of the things that I look at is, I think a lot of times, it's part of it is what we tell ourselves, but I think a lot of it is the questions we ask ourselves also around our ability to sort of unlock action in the face of perceived weakness and vulnerability. I think so many of us, all we focus on is what if I fail?

• 42:51Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:52Jonathan Fields?

  Rather than what if I succeed?

• 42:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:56Jonathan Fields?

  And what if I do nothing, which is very often the most terrifying answer of three.

• 43:01Speaker 00

  No, there's no doubt. And I mean, something you said about people who are surrounded by communities who are critical, I told you so, you were so stupid to do that. One thing that I think it's really important, and I feel ethically bound to say to people a lot of times about the work, is be clear that when you start to dare greatly, when you start to be vulnerable and take chances, you are going to be holding a very uncomfortable mirror up from people.

• 43:26Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  And a lot of times, if you're surrounded by people who say, I told you so, or who are critical, it's because daring greatly to watch someone be vulnerable and risk, to watch someone walk headlong into uncertainty, is so uncomfortable for people who are not willing to do that, that they're dying to see failure and to point it out as confirmation that my way of living is okay. And the whole dotted around, like, I think there was a group of women, we call ourselves the Love Bombers. There was a group of women, they are artists, photographers, writers. I got a call one day from them, probably five, six years ago. They said, you don't know us, we know you from online, I think you read

• 44:12Speaker 00

  our blogs, we read yours, we're going to gather together on the Oregon coast, would you like to join us? And I was like, oh, hell no. Like, that's not, you know, like, I was voted like, least likely to show up with a group of hippie girls that are smoking cloves, like, and doing art. Like, I was like, no. And my husband's like, I think you might need this. I was like, are you kidding me? And he said, I think you should go. And it really changed my life because, again, it was technology, and I totally agree with what you said. When I'm throwing up and sick, these are not the people who hold my hair back. They're not the people who bring the casseroles over during hard times. But they are a group of people who, where we made agreement that we would be vulnerable and brave together.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  And that we would create a space for each other where we never had to shrink. When we were really proud of what we were doing, our successes. And we'd never have to puff up when we were feeling small and ashamed.

• 45:06Speaker 00

  That we were all going to be brave together and take our licks and, you know, and so I think that's really important.

• 45:15Speaker 00

  It was life changing for me. And so I think if you are in a small town, I think World Domination Summit.

• 45:19Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, great example.

• 45:21Speaker 00

  I mean.

• 45:22Jonathan Fields?

  I think a lot of people go to that just because they fly from all over the world because they can't find those people. And it's like the one time every year where they can like be on the ground with like minded people. And then they take that with them. I think a lot of things can start out digitally.

• 45:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:38Jonathan Fields?

  And then it'll, it stays in sort of this ethereal kind of supportive level.

• 45:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:42Jonathan Fields?

  But then you can meet somebody and spend three days with them. And then when you leave, it's a very different dynamic.

• 45:47Speaker 00

  It's a totally different, yeah. I mean, and I think, yeah, like I would have never, I don't think I've ever done, I know before or since anything like I, my talk at Pearl Domination or that. Like I would have never have tried something so crazy and out there had I not been, you know, around people who were there to explore how brave am I willing to be?

• 46:09Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 46:09Speaker 00

  You know, and so I do think there's something about that. I think one of the other myths about vulnerability that you pointed, that you touched on was the idea that we can go it alone.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's still even.

• 46:27Speaker 00

  Even in a world where people are pretty awake and conscious about connection. It's still a very highly regarded ideal. You know, this is where I quote Whitesnake in the book, you know, like.

• 46:40Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  Here I go again on my own. Like we all want to.

• 46:43Jonathan Fields?

  Right. I love your case to music as like an old Rush and you know, like.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:47Jonathan Fields?

  Fanatic.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm a Rush fanatic too. And so that's one thing that's so fun about the book. People are like, mostly guys were like, dude, you quoted Rush.

• 46:56Jonathan Fields?

  I was like, the ultimate philosopher there.

• 47:00Speaker 00

  Neil Peart.

• 47:00Jonathan Fields?

  I know.

• 47:02Speaker 00

  World peace, I think he could bring world peace.

• 47:04Jonathan Fields?

  I think so.

• 47:07Speaker 00

  But, uh, no, I think this idea that we can go it alone and that I think we need people not only to support us, but I think we need people like to try on vulnerability with, to try it on and say, "Hey, Jonathan, it's Pernay, and I think I want to do this." I did that with Chris, going back to WDS, World by Nations, on that, like, the night of rehearsals.

• 47:26Jonathan Fields?

  I was there.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  You know, I said, "And seriously thinking about closing by doing a duet with you from the glee version of a Journey song." And he was like, "Uh, no." And his wife was like, "Yeah, there's no way." He said, "We're gonna do that." And I'm like, "Okay." Then I thought, "Okay, good." I was like, "Okay, so I just kind of moved away from it." And then I hear him, like, from the backstage go, "But you are writing a book called Daring Greatly, so..." I was like, "Are you gonna do it or not?" And he's like, "I'll do it if you do it." And, but that's what I mean by trying it on, because there was no doubt, I was seriously afraid. I thought it would, I put it at best 50/50 that anyone else would sing along. And I thought, "Are you gonna be okay if it's just you and me the whole time?" And Chris goes, "It's gonna be a long song if that happens."

• 48:11Speaker 00

  And I'm like, "Well, I'll tell the guys, the AV guys, to fade out." But it was a thousand people.

• 48:18Jonathan Fields?

  Uh-huh.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  Standing on their chairs, you know, in the aisles, playing air guitar, it was fun, and so...

• 48:23Jonathan Fields?

  And it turned into this, an extraordinary moment, as it could transcend.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  It was one of the best moments of my life. I mean, it was...

• 48:31Jonathan Fields?

  And I think, I mean, that's part of the message, right? Is that, that's what you miss out on, when you're not willing to go to that place.

• 48:38Speaker 00

  It is, and I read it, you know, everyone, you know, because I still get, you know, comments from people that were like, "Don't stop believing," or "Suck it," you know, like, I still get those. But, um, every now and then there'll be a comment like, "That's the cheesiest thing I've ever heard of." And...

• 48:57Speaker 00

  It doesn't, I feel total neutrality about that, not even the need to defend it or anything. Cause my thought was, you weren't there, cause it was from people who weren't there. You didn't share that with us, and that's okay.

• 49:10Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 49:10Speaker 00

  Um, because if you were there, it was fun. You know, and we sang together like we were 13 in the back of a car, sneaking out on a Friday night. You know, so, um, so, but I think you have to have a tribe to try on that stuff with.

• 49:27Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I totally agree. It's, it makes, it's, it's, I, it's almost impossible for a lot of, not everybody. I think some people are kind of wired, you know, like.

• 49:35Speaker 00

  I think so too, yeah.

• 49:36Jonathan Fields?

  But I don't think that's most people.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  I don't, and I, you know, I think the other thing that's important about that tribe that has really shifted in for me in the last year is I no longer really even, I have no intake at all of any feedback or criticism from anyone who's not in the arena.

• 49:56Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  So unless you are in your own capacity, in your own world, in your own life, getting your ass kicked on occasion, I'm not interested in what you have to share with me about my work.

• 50:08Jonathan Fields?

  What flipped that switch?

• 50:12Speaker 00

  A profound respect for myself and other people who are out there trying to do work and trying to walk into uncertainty and vulnerability and are really risking.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  Because it is so easy to make a life and a career out of sitting in the bleachers and making fun of people and putting them down. And so I think a profound respect for those of us who are out there. And what I realized too, in my own life, is the people who are doing that, who are in their own arena, I don't care what it is. You don't have to be a writer or speaking in public. I don't care if you're a teacher, you know, like my sisters are teachers, you know? In my opinion, they walk in the arena every morning at 7:30.

• 51:03Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 51:04Speaker 00

  Right? And so what I have found, not only as a, my personal life, but professionally, is the people who are in the arena and who are showing up and letting themselves be seen. Give feedback that is far more constructive and far more helpful and mindful about what people can hear and not hear. And I mean, and I love, I mean, I'm an academic at heart, so I love debate and discourse. I love it when people email me and say, "Saw your talk, parts of it I liked, but you were completely remiss in not mentioning these three areas of the literature. How can you talk about vulnerability without quoting so and so about closeness or something?" I love that. That makes me better. It makes my work better.

• 51:46Speaker 00

  People who make fun of me, or make fun of other people, or say hateful things, people who say, "I feel sorry for your kids." You know, people who say, "If I looked like you, I'd embrace imperfection too." That, those kind of comments that you get, you know,

• 52:06Speaker 00

  I just, I hate to get binary because it's not, it's who I'm trying not to be. But I'm still that person in some ways, and I really do believe you're either making the world a better place, or you're making it a worse place. I don't feel like there's a lot of neutrality. And that's probably a little hard ass line to take. I don't want to sound like you're either with us or against us. Not my favorite quote or, you know, perspective. But I do feel like every day, our choices have a huge impact on people. And

• 52:48Speaker 00

  someone told me, this could be urban legend, I don't know, maybe you know, but I heard that Oprah Winfrey has this quote on her door. But it's a quote that I love, and it says, "You're responsible for the energy you bring into this room." And I think people are responsible for the energy they put in the world. And a fake avatar and a fake name and leaving a comment somewhere is not benign. Because I'll keep putting my work out there. And you will probably keep putting your work out there. And several people we know will probably keep. But there are people who have amazing gifts, who could make the world an incredibly better place, who won't put their work out there for that reason.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  You know, um, and that's a loss. And whether we know what that work was or not, we miss it and grieve it every day. There are songs that we need to hear. There are stories that need to be heard. There's work that needs to be seen. There's ideas that need to be implemented.

• 53:52Speaker 00

  That we'll never see or know because there's so many people out there who are so reflexively cynical and critical and mean spirited. I don't like it.

• 54:03Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 54:03Speaker 00

  Do you like it?

• 54:04Jonathan Fields?

  You know, it's something that I deal with every single day in my life. First thing I do when I wake up in the morning is I roll out of bed and I sit and I meditate for 25 minutes. And part of that is because it helps me enter every day with that sense of equanimity. And the ability to, when needed, zoom the lens out more and look down on myself and, and get a better sense for when I'm reacting or responding with deliberation and intelligence. It's still a brutally hard thing for me to do because I'm an emotional person. And I, and, and behind, because I operate so much of the time as a writer and behind the veil of anonymity,

• 54:46Jonathan Fields?

  that a lot of people had that you were describing, the online world, I get attacked. And I just say, I'm, I'm always saying to myself, would this person stand in front of me in a room with my kid next to me and say the same thing?

• 54:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 55:00Jonathan Fields?

  And, and I've got to believe that the answer would be no. I want to believe the answer would be no, because I want to have that level of faith in humanity. But, um, sometimes I, but it, it's not easy. And I know, to your point, I know, I've had so many conversations with people who do not bring their art and their soul and their heart to the world. Because they know that there are people out there who will attack them in very, very mean, vindictive, spiteful ways. And part of, I guess, my exploration has been, to the point that you were making before,

• 55:43Jonathan Fields?

  I've always been fascinated with the phenomenon of people who are even within your close inner circle, your family, your closest friends, either publicly or secretly rallying to see you fail.

• 55:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:55Jonathan Fields?

  And I think a lot of what, so I try and reframe, I try and understand, you know?

• 56:01Jonathan Fields?

  I once heard, you know, maybe it was something that I read or an interview that I saw with the Dalai Lama, where they asked him what his greatest fear was, and his greatest fear was losing compassion to the Chinese. It blew my mind.

• 56:14Jonathan Fields?

  You know, and I'm just thinking to myself, if, if I can, if I can try and practice compassion, meditating compassion on a daily level, in a, in a way that tries to allow me to step in the shoes of that person who is being this way towards me or towards someone I love,

• 56:32Jonathan Fields?

  maybe that's the, the beginning for me. But it doesn't make me okay with it. I would love to say it does. I would love to say I just, I'm good. I meditate, I do my mindfulness and I experience it and then I let it go, but, but I don't. I'm human. You know, and it hurts. But, um, far better that than living in the great twilight that knows neither victory nor success.

• 56:58Speaker 00

  But I think that's the thing. I think I've seen the pain and talked to people about the pain of having the anonymous critic, but also having the family who's rallying for failure. To have the partner who's just chomping on the bit to say, I told you so. To have the children who are looking at you with disappointment. You know, but I don't think I've ever seen, the greatest pain I've ever seen in my work

• 57:26Speaker 00

  has, is from people who have spent their lives on the outside of the arena, wondering what would have, what would have happened had I shown up. That's a pain that, to me, maybe it's because I'm, I'm 46, has become a far greater fear of mine than having to dodge some hurt, you know, some hurt feelings sometimes and,

• 57:58Speaker 00

  yeah, the what if, what if I would have shown up and have been seen.

• 58:01Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and I'm in the same place and same age, by the way.

• 58:05Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 58:06Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, me too.

• 58:07Speaker 00

  I wish you'd be back for a lot of our money.

• 58:09Jonathan Fields?

  One final question as we wrap this up. So the name of this project is called The Good Life Project and, so when I, when you hear that phrase and, or if I ask you the question, do you, what does it mean to live a good life? What comes up?

• 58:22Speaker 00

  Gratitude.

• 58:25Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 58:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:36Speaker 00

  I think for me,

• 58:40Speaker 00

  a good life is one,

• 58:46Speaker 00

  a good life happens when you stop and are grateful for the ordinary moments that so many of us just steamroll over to try to find those extraordinary moments. And so to me,

• 59:02Speaker 00

  my good life is soccer practice and carpool line and tech-ins and date night. And that's a good life for me. I mean, and

• 59:17Speaker 00

  and knowing that it's good and acknowledging and stopping that it's good and saying, this is good.

• 59:23Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm, I love that.

• 59:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:26Jonathan Fields?

  Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet, you'll also love the conversation we had with Elizabeth Gilbert about bringing your whole self to your life. You'll find a link to Liz's episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did, because you're still listening here, do me a personal favor, a seven second favor, share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too, but just one person even,

• 1:00:10Jonathan Fields?

  then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.

• 1:01:04Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  With a Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5% cash back at different categories each quarter on up to $1,500 in purchases. That's 5% cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to discover. Terms apply. See discover.com/5 for details.