Pod Insights Good Life Project Ani DiFranco: Fierce, Free, Creative & True About this episode From punk rock revolutionary to bridge-builder, Grammy winner Ani DiFranco reveals how being canceled by her own community transformed her approach to activism and art.
This intimate conversation explores how to maintain fierce convictions while fostering revolutionary love, featuring vulnerable insights about evolving activism, DIY independence, and creating change through music and dialogue in an age of deepening divides.
Watch this conversation on YouTube https://youtu.be/sU6SBr0yess
You can find Ani at: Website https://anidifranco.com/ | Instagram https://www.instagram.com/anidifranco | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/activism-revolutionary-transformation-ani-difranco
If you LOVED this episode, you’ll also love the conversations we had with Zoe Boekbinder, joined by Ani DiFranco and Nathen Brown https://pod.link/goodlifeproject/episode/Z2lkOi8vYXJ0MTktZXBpc29kZS1sb2NhdG9yL1YwL2s5aTZhN1dmcU00SzVIZ1JqeV9kRjVaR0w5Zl9ld19yYmZ4MHBUVFJrX2c, about The Prison Music Project—a powerful collaboration born inside New Folsom Prison that became the album Long Time Gone, produced by Ani and featuring songs written with incarcerated and formerly incarcerated musicians.
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0:00 Jonathan Fields? So what happens when fierce conviction meets musical genius and revolutionary love? When anger and activism transform into something more nuanced, more powerful? When creative abundance meets community and impact? For over three decades, my guest, Ani DiFranco, has stood at the intersection of music and activism and independence, charting her own path while inspiring and touching the hearts and minds of millions. And today's conversation explores how real impact, expression, and transformation requires both fierce dedication and also tender compassion, and what it means to stay true to your values while building bridges across divides.
0:42 Jonathan Fields? An industry icon and Grammy winner, Ani has been a fierce voice for feminism and equality, and also the mother of the DIY music movement. After founding Righteous Babe Records at 18 years old, she blazed the trail for independent artists, releasing 23 albums, including her latest, Unprecedented Shit. In this conversation, Ani shares vulnerable insights about her journey from a young revolutionary activist and solo artist to someone working to foster genuine dialogue and community at scale. And she reveals how she approaches advocacy differently, leading with humanity, and even how her experiences of being canceled transformed her approach to activism. And she also offers wisdom about maintaining independence while creating meaningful artistry
1:27 Jonathan Fields? and impact and connection. And she shares the surprising story behind her latest album's Innovative Sound, and what she now knows about creating lasting positive change. And by the way, we are now airing all episodes on video on YouTube as well, and this one was really special. We filmed in this sweet little indie studio right here in Boulder, Colorado, just before Ani headed out on stage. And the musical vibe, it just makes for a really special visual experience. So we'll include a link to the video in the show notes if you're curious. Go check it out. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.
2:10 Speaker 01 With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.
2:40 Speaker 02 Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.
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3:44 Jonathan Fields? Really good to be able to spend a little time with you. And like, it's not lost on me, the fact that as we sit here, while this episode will air at some point in the future, we're recording on September 11th, 9/11, some 24 years after the events in New York. And I, as we were just talking about, I'm a recent Colorado person, but spent my entire adult life in New York, was there, living in Hell's Kitchen when this happened. I have very, very deep emotional memories from that day and from the time around it. New friends that went to work the day and never came home. Found myself working, volunteering 10 feet from the pile the next day,
4:30 Jonathan Fields? handing out safety equipment to first responders and not understanding how anyone could see or breathe there because it was that toxic.
4:41 Jonathan Fields? I'm wondering, and this day always affects me, 24 years removed, no longer 2,000 miles from the city, but I wake up in the morning and I feel it and I have remembrances of it. I'm wondering if you have any particular remembrances of that day?
4:57 Speaker 04 Sure, I was actually in Manhattan as well. I was in midtown,
5:04 Speaker 04 conducting rehearsals for horn players because I wanted to add a horn section to my band or because I had been on tour with Macy O. Parker, who was one of James Brown's, you know, he was the anchor JB horn for all those decades. And then I just became addicted to the sound of a horn section. So we're in New York and I guess what stands out for me are the sort of ash-covered,
5:42 Speaker 04 zombie-eyed people migrating uptown, just watching them walking with their briefcases, you know, evacuating the scene on foot in the middle of the deserted avenues, you know, and all of the other people just standing, staring at the cloud of smoke at the bottom of the avenue and the, we didn't know what to do, like everyone, we didn't know. So we just went to the rehearsal space where all the auditions were supposed to be happening.
6:24 Speaker 04 And lo and behold, some of these horn players showed up. You know, a musician needs a gig and even on a day like that, some people came.
6:42 Speaker 04 So it was actually very, of course surreal for everyone, but beautiful because a handful of strangers made their way there miraculously, though every subway and bus was shut down.
7:01 Speaker 04 And we met them and processed with them and then played music. I mean, music is so healing, you know, so there we were in real time, just using it to to process and and try to stay connected with something life-affirming.
7:20 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, I can't imagine being in that room, you know, and, you know, playing and the fact that people showed up in the first place.
7:28 Speaker 04 Yeah.
7:29 Jonathan Fields? It's like there was something inside of them that called. And I know you say like, "Music needs a gig." And yet on that day, you got to imagine there's some, there was another reason they decided they had to still show up.
7:39 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, I think us musicians are pretty subliminally invested in using music to get through. So yeah, if if anything makes sense, it's to just go play music while figuring out what else is to be done.
8:00 Jonathan Fields? I know in the the weeks and months after that, it sounds like you were there as well. I remember wandering around the city and, you know, for anyone who knows New York, this is a place where everyone's head is down. They're moving really fast, you know? If you're trying to have a conversation with a barista or someone at checkout, like everyone behind you is like giving you the like dirty looks. Everything slowed down and there was a sense of compassion, sisterhood, fellowship, that I had never experienced in the city before. It lasted like around six months or so. And I thought, you know,
8:38 Jonathan Fields? What a sobering, but also just really deeply beautiful experience it was. And then many years later, I had a conversation on podcast with Valerie Corr, who I know you know, and her whole, you know, like philosophy around revolutionary love. And, and she really, she opened my eyes to the fact that my experience during that window was not universal, that there were people also wandering around New York City who didn't look like me, who were absolutely terrified for their lives every time they stepped outside their door. And that was kind of a revelation for me. I'd never really thought about that.
9:15 Speaker 04 Yeah, I went on tour immediately, obviously a scheduled tour and everybody else was, had canceled their tours. Everything was canceled, you know, nationwide. People didn't want to leave their houses, but I felt like it was my mission to not cancel. And again, just go and process with people in real time. The audiences were very light. I guess traveling, I've, I had a similar experience to you, you know?
9:59 Speaker 04 It felt like even, like I had been a public enemy of sorts with my punk appearance, my sort of, you know, ruffian kid and, you know, security people eyeing me and luggage being gone, you know, and do you have a joint in there? You, you know, you delinquent. And suddenly it, it did, I felt that same palpable, like we don't care about your joint anymore. We don't, you're, you're now one of us. I felt included almost for the first time in that way.
10:38 Jonathan Fields? That had to been such a weird feeling.
10:40 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah, kind of.
10:45 Speaker 04 You know, I guess that, you know, the revolutionary love soldier in me resented it. Like, oh, now I'm on the team because I'm not brown, you know? Whereas yesterday, you would have given me heck, you know?
11:03 Jonathan Fields? I mean, what do you, what do you do with that?
11:05 Speaker 04 Just be aware of it and not ignore it. You know, I always, I used to joke, I mean, I wouldn't make this joke anymore because I don't want to be seen as conflating the pushback from society that a sort of a, a young, white punk, anti-establishment punk gets with what people of color get. But I, you know, back in the nineties, you know, I had green hair, purple hair, you know, piercings and, you know, tattoos or whatever,
11:43 Speaker 04 back when that was not a, everywhere. And so I would be sitting in the row of chairs in the, you know, getting pulled over at every customs checkpoint along my journey. So, anyway, just, yeah, to be aware of the hierarchies and the subliminal structures of society and the differences of experience from whatever gifts of perspective your journey gives you, you know?
12:15 Jonathan Fields? I mean, to be out on the road also at that point, like you, you make this choice that says, I'm going to keep going out, when a lot of people, as you described, were just like, no, we're tapping out. Like, we're, we're setting down plans for, we don't know how long, but we just, and your impulse was, I mean, it's interesting to me that your impulse was the exact opposite. And I'm, part of my curiosity is, is that because you needed it, or you felt like the people you wanted to be of service needed it? Or maybe, yes?
12:45 Speaker 04 I think, I think it was my will to be of service. I think that's the larger part of what's kept me on the road for all these decades.
12:58 Speaker 04 Especially as the years have worn on, you know, I mean, it's, which is not to say that it doesn't also feed and inform and inspire me.
13:12 Speaker 04 But it's hard to, you know, it's hard to keep leaving whatever my home is and keep.
13:22 Speaker 04 I mean, I was gonna say packing and unpacking, but for many, many, many years, I never unpacked. You know, it's just, that's, that was a waste of energy. Even at home, you just keep sifting out of the suitcase because soon enough you're gone again. You know, we were talking before we were on mic about the dysregulating effect of constant movement.
13:46 Speaker 04 You do acclimate to it, but I just, it's my, it's my form of service, I guess, you know, to show up for people because I've been made aware since the very beginning, what it, what it means, how it can help others to heal and grow and find themselves.
14:11 Jonathan Fields? Let's talk a little bit about that very beginning-ish area.
14:17 Jonathan Fields? You have a daughter who just recently was about the same age that you were when you went to New York, who just went to New York City as well.
14:25 Speaker 04 Yeah.
14:26 Jonathan Fields? You know, you born and raised Buffalo, deeply in the music scene there and eventually make your way down to New York and you're getting a lot of really nice traction, not because it's being handed to you, but because you're working your ass off, you know, writing, performing constantly all over the place. And as you said, from the very beginning, for you, this was never just performing, it was never just music, there was a deeper mission, there was a sense of service and activism that always informed everything you did. And I'm wondering where that comes from for you, like, do you trace that back to parents or to the culture of your family or anything else when you were growing up?
15:03 Speaker 04 I mean, my parents, definitely, obviously, for me.
15:11 Speaker 04 They were both progressive people, they were both immigrants, had an immigrant mentality.
15:21 Speaker 04 I mean, which is to say. That they really did not take this country for granted. And what is available to you, what is all that this country has to offer? You know, so I recognize that now as a real specific and somewhat unique perspective in this country. I think the native born are often not nearly as
15:54 Speaker 04 impressed with America.
15:58 Speaker 04 But, you know, giving back was always the mentality in my house. And, you know, including, you know, it sounds funny to say, but it, again, it feels very unique now that I've looked back on my family upbringing, like paying taxes. Paying taxes is universally in this culture seen as a burden. And to escape every dollar of paying your taxes is sort of the goal. And it's not questioned.
16:40 Speaker 04 That that mentality.
16:44 Speaker 04 But my parents, you know, I think I wrote it in a song once. They were happy to pay taxes like they felt this is, yeah, this is, this is how it works and it works. It's amazing what how, you know, that the government, you know, of course, there are many people that the system does not and has not worked for as well. And there's a lot of legitimate perspectives, but that that immigrant
17:15 Speaker 04 gratitude is was a gift to me, I think, you know, and.
17:24 Speaker 04 Just loving what America is striving for, you know, and wanting to be a part of that, wanting to contribute to it. That was definitely a goal I inherited. You know, I didn't devise it myself.
17:41 Jonathan Fields? So I noticed you used the word, "what America is striving for," not "what America is," which sounds intentional.
17:48 Speaker 04 It's a process, and it's very imperfect. But I think, yeah, that early perspective has confirmed that giving up on it, opting out because it's messy, and it's imperfect, and it's infuriating, and it's devastating at turns, is never going to get us out of here. You know, I've been voting. You know, there's another, you know, these seem like, you know, my parents, especially my mom, was active on many levels. She was, she was an activist.
18:29 Speaker 04 And, but even these simple things that don't necessarily fall into activist category, but just fall into the category of citizen, which, again, I think a lot of Americans are so disillusioned and detached from the idea that the government is of and by and for the people, and exercising that incredible power of the vote that we are given, you know, is not something that most embrace. You know, but voting, my mom took me to vote,
19:13 Speaker 04 and she campaigned for candidates she believed in. You know, I can picture myself, you know, in a circle of women licking stamps, you know, or the sponge and the... going door to door, you know, trying to inspire people to vote for some progressive woman who is trying to get in the game, you know, or... You know, that's something that I've been working on ever since, trying to convince especially young people that...
19:47 Speaker 04 Because it's imperfect and because it's unfair, you know,
19:54 Speaker 04 doesn't mean that
19:57 Speaker 04 giving into your disillusionment or performing your awareness of the unfairness by sitting it out
20:09 Speaker 04 is necessarily a viable solution.
20:12 Jonathan Fields? I mean, it is interesting, that last part especially, performing your awareness. I feel like we see so much of that these days. It's sort of like, I'm going to perform something
20:27 Jonathan Fields? in lieu of actually taking an action where my voice is going to be counted in a more meaningful way.
20:36 Jonathan Fields? And not that any action I want to discount. You know, if you believe in something and you want to like stand up for it and say it, yes, do it.
20:45 Jonathan Fields? But I often wonder whether sometimes we're doing that in lieu of taking a more concerted action that's actually really going to move the needle more.
20:53 Speaker 04 Not just to our own detriment, but to the world's, to the world's. I think we have a stark double standard for each other on the left than we do for our opponents on the right.
21:11 Jonathan Fields? And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
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23:43 Speaker 01 With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.
24:16 Jonathan Fields? This goes beyond politics. This goes to pretty much so many different points of view across all people, across almost every and any aspect of life that matters to us. It also touches into the earlier conversation around Valery Carr's work. The whole notion of revolutionary love is like, is there a way that we can approach people that we see as opponents, having opposing points of view?
24:43 Jonathan Fields? And in some way, shape or form, step into that conversation from a place of empathy and compassion. And that's what your album, really building on her work that she offered out to the world and her book.
24:58 Jonathan Fields? It's an imitation that I think a lot of us not alone, we're like, yeah, wouldn't the world be so much better if we could do that? And yet it is so hard. And again, political divide is one thing, but these are just divides across almost anything where we could disagree these days. I feel like we've learned how to have strong beliefs and hold them fiercely.
25:24 Jonathan Fields? But we haven't learned how to look at another person who believes the exact opposite and say, look, I can't imagine a world where I agree with your point of view or your beliefs.
25:37 Jonathan Fields? But I can still see you as a human being worthy of life, worthy of attention, worthy of being heard as much as I want to be heard, you know, which is part of the imitation, but a brutally hard thing to actualize in day to day life.
25:53 Speaker 04 Not only is it hard to stay curious and to stay compassionate with your opponents, if you know, you look around now, it seems like it's, it's become almost too hard for us to do that with our allies, with our community members. So how can, you know, Valerie brilliantly articulates, you know, this idea of revolutionary love in, in all her work and.
26:26 Speaker 04 You know, she talks, she sort of breaks it down into three stages of the, of the work, right? So first, you know, you have to achieve self-love, right? You know, in order to give it, you have to give it to yourself first. This is the really tricky and elusive wisdom.
26:47 Jonathan Fields? Which may be the hardest stage, just at the end of the day, right?
26:49 Speaker 04 But you know, start, start. Yeah. I think that in my subconscious way, I've, I've tried to follow that process, which is why when I encountered Valerie and her words, it was like just this deep, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. This is what I'm trying to do too. Thank you for showing it to me so that I can understand it better myself. You know, just in the writing of my songs, say, you know, support yourself because the world is not necessarily doing so. Like, say, you are okay as you are. This is your story and your perspective and your
27:33 Speaker 04 place in the universe and it's as legit as the next guy. And then find your community and fit and learn how to love them and work with them and be with them and make each other stronger through community and through those bonds and those. And then, when you've done that, when you're safe and you're in community and you have what you need, you can then go into the third phase of that really hard work of face your opponent and try to take everything you have and everything you've learned within yourself and within your community
28:15 Speaker 04 and apply it to your opponent. But we need to back up.
28:22 Speaker 04 We need to back the F up and learn how to even be in community. It's like we're, we're out there raging against the intolerance of the right. And we're so intolerant towards each other's differences. You know, community doesn't mean sameness. You know, it's not, we are not a monolith. We have differences. And if, if we can't work those differences and still work with and see each other and embrace each other in those differences. How can we demand that of the other?
29:05 Speaker 04 And how can we engage with our opponents in any useful way?
29:14 Jonathan Fields? And it's almost like then, how can we feel safe enough to be able to then show up to people that we perceive as being opponents to us and actually listen? Again, not necessarily with the intent of being persuaded, but just open our ears and listen. If we don't feel safe in our, in our own hearts, and then if we don't have community where we feel safe also, we're never going to show up outside of those bounds and actually be genuinely present and curious to anyone who sees the world in any meaningfully way different than us.
29:49 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, it's been so many years now for me that I have this acute awareness within me that, yeah, when I'm facing the opponent and trying to engage, who I'm afraid of is my people. That in, in my efforts of trying to engage and trying to help grow or heal and do that for myself and hope that it's contagious somehow, I'm going to make a mistake of language
30:29 Speaker 04 or approach in a moment that's where my people are going to come after me because that has been the pattern for a long time.
30:43 Speaker 04 And that's the deepest, most debilitating fear that a human being can have. It is so, you know, fighting the patriarchy from the beginning and feeling all that pushback and all the, you know, whatever, just being called a man hater and a diss or a that or and being pushed to the side and pushed down and called all sorts of things and having the sort of, all the carrots snatched back and, you know, and becoming a sort of public
31:22 Speaker 04 enemy, number one, sort of feeling amongst the broader culture, or that never hurt me. I mean, in any meaningful way, you know, of course, it did, but not, not even approaching the way that it hurts when your own tribe kicks you to the curb. That makes you want to kill yourself. And these days, we are as ready to kick our, our family and friends and community members off the planet as we are any of the greatest evils you could imagine.
32:07 Speaker 04 And I find myself in this, the tightest spot I've ever inhabited, trying to be, just trying to be, I am more self censoring now than I've been in my whole life.
32:24 Jonathan Fields? It's coming, coming from inside the house.
32:27 Speaker 04 It's coming from inside the house. We all know that phone call is way scarier.
32:32 Jonathan Fields? You know, and it's, I wonder if part of what's going on also, part of what you're feeling, I think so many people are feeling also is there's no tolerance for quote mistakes.
32:42 Speaker 04 Yeah.
32:43 Jonathan Fields? So like, if you want to try and say something that you believe in or try and take in action that you feel is meaningful, even if it's to try and bridge a gap, and
32:53 Jonathan Fields? You make a misstep. You know, there's, there's so little tolerance now for us to just try and realize, "Oh, I actually did something wrong. I caused harm. I'm sorry." Like, that, that's on me. I was trying to do the right thing, but I caused harm. It's almost like there's a one and done mentality. It's like, no, no, no, like, you are now in purgatory for life. Like, you're canceled. And I feel like there's, if there's, if there's no, if there's no space for attempt and redemption, then we all just stop trying.
33:27 Speaker 04 Yeah.
33:28 Jonathan Fields? And I feel like that's where so many people are now.
33:30 Speaker 04 And also, you know, I think our definition of harm has gotten a little broad. You know, I heard somebody say recently, or read some, can't remember where, but people are conflating being uncomfortable with being harmed. You know, so, yes, we absolutely need to be able to make mistakes, and I've made so many. And at this point, I feel grateful that some of them were made before the internet, you know, when a mistake doesn't live forever and always everywhere.
34:13 Speaker 04 But also, one person's mistake is another person's not mistake. And there are legitimately differing perspectives about what's the right way to say this, or what's the right action right here? Or what's the right perspective on this? It's just the idea that it's okay to have differences. It really is actually essential. And that uncomfortableness of navigating those differences is also okay. It's part of the process. And being so sure of your way,
34:58 Speaker 04 and so sure that the other's way is wrong.
35:03 Speaker 04 I think can be, again,
35:08 Speaker 04 maybe is maybe the biggest problem that we're facing here. That's, of course, my perspective, you know, just trying to be an engaged person on the left.
35:18 Jonathan Fields? I think a lot of us are feeling, I think no matter what your point of view is, your political affiliation, your personal affiliation, whatever groups you feel like you're aligned with or not aligned with. It's almost like everybody is feeling that in some way, shape or form right now. And it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, we're really having trouble seeing the human beneath the belief and acknowledging the fact, like, simply because you exist as a human being on the planet, like, you are worthy of some level of dignity. You know, even if you see the world completely differently from me, and I vehemently disagree with you, and you vehemently disagree with me. It's like, by the end of the day, like, we're part of like one larger fabric of humanity.
36:04 Jonathan Fields? And there's like, I just, to me, like dignity is a birthright.
36:09 Jonathan Fields? And we've lost that thread in a lot of ways.
36:14 Jonathan Fields? And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
36:19 Jonathan Fields? Good Life Project is sponsored by TinCan. So if you grew up in the 70s or 80s, you probably still remember your best friend's phone number and stretching the kitchen phone cord around the corner for privacy. Our executive producer, Lindsay, wanted that same freedom for her kids, eight and 10. So in January, she got them a TinCan. Now, friends call the house to chat, make plans and check in without borrowing her phone. They even keep a handwritten phone book next to it. I kind of love that. TinCan is the new school way for kids to talk with their friends. It's a secure landline that lets them call all their favorite people, but with parental controls to keep them protected. No screens, no algorithms, no texting, just a phone being a phone.
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38:55 Jonathan Fields? I mean, it's interesting to me, when you're, you've been touring for 35 years now, something like that.
39:01 Speaker 04 Yeah.
39:02 Jonathan Fields? Plus or minus, I would imagine the experience of touring and being in relation to audiences and communities has changed profoundly over that period of time. So you sort of have like a front row seat to how people come together and how the vibe, the energy changes and shifts over time. And yourself has changed. You know, you can't be doing this from, you know, like your late teens, you know, like to your 50s and be locked into the same person. I guess you could.
39:33 Speaker 04 Yeah.
39:34 Jonathan Fields? But it's not, yeah, wouldn't be saying much about, you know, like your own personal just evolution and growth. When you, when you think back to sort of like 18, 19-year-old Ani.
39:47 Jonathan Fields? And who you are and how you show up and what you care about now. Do you see really meaningful differences or do you see it's like mostly?
39:54 Speaker 04 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, and I actually, you know, I look back at, you know, youthful, the youth, the energy of youth is so valuable and so important in making change.
40:12 Speaker 04 And but it's also extremely arrogant, you know, extremely, you know, and so of course, that was true of me as any young person. I had a lot more of what I was just talking about where I was quite sure that my way is the right way.
40:32 Speaker 04 And I could see how everybody who was doing it wrong was doing it wrong. And also, you know, just on a sort of deeper, sort of more energetic before all the ideas and the philosophies and the stances and the tribes come into it.
40:52 Speaker 04 Just even carrying ideas about hierarchy of people, you know, that I think I've done a lot of work to divest myself of its ongoing work, obviously, to not put yourself above anybody ever. But
41:13 Speaker 04 on this same flow of conversation, you know, I was canceled on the internet once in a big way and it was devastating to me. You know, physically, emotionally, every, every, every way for years. It was years of recovery and I never fully, you know, I never recovered in that, oh, I can still
41:44 Speaker 04 do the things I used to do. But one of the very, I think, valuable ways that it changed me
41:53 Speaker 04 is that.
41:56 Speaker 04 You know, I feel like I experience things in this world and in my life as sort of visceral, energetic. I can almost picture the sort of energetic stamp of a moment. And that moment for me was like having this huge, huge, like many, many, many people pushing down on me, pushing me down. You're bad, you're bad. And they pushed and pushed down and they're, you know, I was beneath them. I was, I was far beneath. And they, you know, there was, you know, that shame, shaming.
42:38 Speaker 04 And it was such a visceral experience and it was so potent. And from that, I
42:48 Speaker 04 am much more hyper aware of when I'm interacting with somebody. And I mean, you know, to just be vivid about it, like, you know, a junkie on the street with no teeth and, you know, and saying some, you know, when I feel that thing in me where I'm putting myself above this person or somehow in my mind or within myself, I'm pushing this person down. I, I, I feel it now. I feel because I was on the other side of that equation in such a striking way.
43:31 Speaker 04 When I put myself on, on, you know, above anybody else, I'm aware of it and I, you know, and I start working to shut it down to,
43:47 Speaker 04 to get bigger in that moment, you know? Like this person who's, you know, just jumped into my path and wants something or wants to engage in some, or whatever, you know, it's, it's like, uh, turn that thing off. That's a toxic thing. Don't, don't let that live in you.
44:08 Jonathan Fields? I know. One of the things, and if you sort of follow your music, your presence over time, over a period of decades, you know?
44:20 Jonathan Fields? There's always been this balance of, I don't know if this language is going to be right, but fierceness and sweetness. You know, like, there's a fierce conviction and there's also like an invitation to be included.
44:35 Jonathan Fields? And, and almost from the outside looking in, you know, it looks like in the very early days, the fierceness was here and the sweetness or the kindness, the joyfulness even was here. And it's like over a period of time, they're slowly rebalancing a bit. Does that land at all?
44:53 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, sure. I think, though, that if you don't have space to exist
45:02 Speaker 04 in the world, within society, there's a certain amount of fierceness that's appropriate.
45:08 Jonathan Fields? A hundred percent.
45:09 Speaker 04 You know, so even just in my
45:17 Speaker 04 experience of, of my personal experience of oppression in terms of being female or maybe being queer, you know, those were,
45:32 Speaker 04 you know, and certainly you can just go on and on from there and fierceness is, is appropriate. And I think, and the fact that it would outmatch your sweetness when you don't have what you need to be is, is just irrational. Yeah, so, but, but again, like, you know, I feel like following Valerie's, you know, path or the way she articulated her vision of how you do this revolutionary love stuff, that's what I was doing. I was fiercely trying to elbow out room for myself and my community.
46:15 Speaker 04 And that work, that was, that was the work to do at that time. You know, each of us has a different role to play in this work of revolutionary love and our role changes as we change. So, once I did become safe and, you know, to a, to a degree where I, and I had enough room to breathe, then I can.
46:45 Speaker 04 Then I can bring in more of the tenderness, more of the humility, more of the porousness that wasn't appropriate in an endangered situation.
46:56 Jonathan Fields? Yeah, and maybe my analogy was off in that it's not a seesaw where it's sort of like one side goes up and the other. Maybe so you can hold on to the fierceness.
47:05 Speaker 04 Yeah.
47:06 Jonathan Fields? And slowly, over time, let that other side rise up to meet it. You know, where they like one doesn't have to go down.
47:14 Speaker 04 Yeah, I like that. Yeah, well said.
47:16 Jonathan Fields? We're having this conversation also at a moment where...
47:21 Jonathan Fields? So you started your own label, 88-ish, from what I remember, 90?
47:27 Speaker 04 Yeah, I guess 90 officially, but yeah.
47:31 Jonathan Fields? And so it's always been just deeply important to you to have independence in this industry, like where you've really just carved out and your own path and created a path for so many others.
47:46 Jonathan Fields? Does the mission that led you in those early days to want to start Righteous Babe, your own label, largely in the early days for you, and then over time, bringing people in who oftentimes, you know, the larger industry, it wasn't a voice they were interested in supporting. And you're like, no, this voice needs to be heard.
48:04 Jonathan Fields? Has there been evolution just in certainly the way that you look at what you've created at Righteous Babe and what it's there to do?
48:11 Speaker 04 It was always about community first and about sort of coming from the outside into culture and trying to, you know, poke some holes in the edifice, you know? And so even before, back when I was the only Righteous Babe artist,
48:34 Speaker 04 the dream was the same, that I not be the only and that it be a place of refuge for others like me who are trying to make a career in music, but it's not.
48:49 Speaker 04 Pop music, or it's not a salable commodity, you know.
48:56 Speaker 04 And so, uh, over the decades, that has been, that has been realized. And I think more so now than ever, which really does my heart good. Yeah, there's a real, real concerted effort at the label in community building. And so that's not just me to every artist. Like, you know, of course, it's very helpful for me to bring an artist out on the road with me, you know, and share the stage and, you know, stand in front of my audience and point at them and, um, sort of use my networks or my team, but also each with each other.
49:38 Speaker 04 You know, that's, that's sort of the new, um, driving sort of ethos at the label is, you know, can we make a community that I could even step out of or evaporate from? Or, uh, that still, you know, where, uh, that still can be a supportive place for other artists.
50:07 Speaker 04 So, yeah, yeah, I think there's been a lot of evolving and stretching at the mothership over the years.
50:14 Jonathan Fields? And I mean, the whole industry has changed so much over that time also. You have some in great ways and some not so great ways, you know? But it's interesting to see you kind of like really sustain with this deep conviction, um, to supporting voices, your own in the early days, I know more, um, who don't check all the boxes that the mainstream industry would be like, oh, hell yeah, like we're all in on this. And along the way, you're, I mean, you're creating music, you're creating movement, you're creating community, you're also creating art, like you're creating things that go into the world and move people in deep ways. I was literally, before our conversation, I was
50:58 Jonathan Fields? a couple, two days ago hiking, I'm on a trail in the Front Range of the Rocky Mountains at 7,000 feet. I have some of your music in my ear and I normally don't listen to anything, but I was like, I just want to kind of like catch up on your music because I'm sitting down with you.
51:12 Speaker 04 Yeah.
51:13 Jonathan Fields? And your song 32 Flavors comes in and so I'm listening to it.
51:20 Jonathan Fields? My heart rate softens. I feel my eyes just kind of like soften and like a minute later, I realized like there are tears rolling down my face. These aren't tears of sadness, tears of recognition, tears of awakening, like, and,
51:37 Jonathan Fields? you know, it was interesting because I was wondering, I was, I'm like, oh, this is really beautiful. And I'm wondering if you have a sense like what it's like to be on the other side of being able to create art that goes into the world and moves people like that? Like, do you feel that being the one who creates that for so many others?
51:57 Speaker 04 I'm more and more aware that I am one of the others. I'm, you know, on one level, yeah, I'm standing there singing, but on another level, I'm standing there listening. And that was the whole game was to heal. And it doesn't matter if you're the singer or the listener, the music is the thing, right? So, yes, I know that experience myself and that transformation. And I just feel like I finally arrived at this place where I thoroughly understand in myself that
52:42 Speaker 04 I mean, even to hear you use the word creator. Yeah, so maybe on one level I created this song. But as I get older, I don't see it that way as clearly. What is becoming more and more clear is that I, you know, the word gifted really, really connects with me now. Because I feel like I was not a creator so much as a receiver. I was given gifts. I was given gifts from somewhere else, from across the veil. I was given gifts from spirit.
53:23 Speaker 04 My guides, people were very generous with me and gave me things that I could use to help heal myself. And lo and behold, others. But I feel like I'm as innocent a bystander in this process as anyone, you know?
53:46 Jonathan Fields? I remember years ago, sitting down with the author Steve Pressfield. And we were having a conversation about where the music exists. Does it come from within us? Or does it exist out there and it comes through us? And he's very much of the belief that it exists out there. And our job is largely just to open to it, to show up on a regular enough basis so that when it wants to pour into and through of us, we're there for it and we're largely transcribing.
54:12 Speaker 04 Yeah, well, yeah. Again, these things don't need to be framed as mutually exclusive. Like, within us is out there. Out there is within us. And going in is how you make the antenna go up. Yeah, it is simultaneously going deep inside and ending up in the vastness.
54:36 Jonathan Fields? You wrote a song, "If You're Not," 2010-ish, I think.
54:41 Speaker 04 Okay, yeah.
54:43 Jonathan Fields? And there's a line in there, "If you're not getting happier as you get older, you're fucking up." Does that land with you now also?
54:51 Speaker 04 Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah, I mean, even when I, again, when I wrote it and when I sang it, first sang it, it wasn't...
55:04 Speaker 04 Thoroughly of me and it's like, it's not something I want to hear any more than the next guy like, because I don't always feel like I'm getting happier. The process is not linear.
55:18 Speaker 04 But I still deeply believe it. Or this message that sort of I was given, you know, in that sense. Like, yeah, actually. You know, I think just always increasing your level of gratitude, you know, that's, you know, happy is a funny word, but you know, then what I mean, you know what I mean? You know, it's inner peace.
55:47 Jonathan Fields? Then content.
55:49 Speaker 04 Yeah.
55:50 Jonathan Fields? Your most recent album, Unprecedented Chet.
55:55 Jonathan Fields? It's a really interesting departure. You know, for years, you know, it sounds like your process had been largely, okay, it's on a in a room, guitar, whatever the instrument may be, working on stuff, largely producing your own music.
56:12 Jonathan Fields? And putting it out into the world, like sometimes collaborating, but often at least still like largely in charge largely.
56:20 Jonathan Fields? You made a really interesting decision to collaborate in a really substantial way and also invite some really different sounds than I've heard come out of your work in the past. I'm curious what was behind that.
56:33 Speaker 04 Well, even, you know, sort of out there on my own in my little tiny world, trying to make records.
56:43 Speaker 04 Where I'm not just the singer and guitar player, I'm the
56:47 Speaker 04 recordist, the mixer, the producer. Within myself, I was for years wanting more collaboration, wanting.
56:59 Speaker 04 You know, and I can hear my often feeble attempts at bringing the sound of the modern world into my Luddite art, you know? Because machines, for instance, are such a part of our daily life now. And we live in this world of machines and devices and, you know, it's almost like we're as like hybrid species now, sort of cyborgs and.
57:32 Speaker 04 And this reality seemed to just like evaporate within my art or within my recordings, you know, then it was, I mean, I guess instruments are machines, that old form of music machine, but um, really drawing this, the modern world that I'm living in, in its presence into, you know, my recordings was something I was attempting on my own, but I don't know all these machines. I don't know what they're called and I don't know where to get them and I don't know how to use them. And I don't even, I tried for
58:15 Speaker 04 a lot of years to be that guy, even just learn how to use a compressor and an EQ and a, you know, let alone all the effects. But now the world of machines has grown and diversified and, you know, there's just all this insane stuff out there available to those who are living in that world. So finally, I was like, I'm done trying to get there on my own. Let me draw in somebody who actually is young enough and able enough that they're living in this modern world and can bring machines to the party. You
58:57 Speaker 04 know, I don't know. It's just an instinctual thing. I certainly, it's just as legitimate to say, no, I'm going to keep it really old school. But I think that this new record, Unprecedented Shit, is a study in contrasts, you know, because there's a lot of moments on the record where it just is a voice and guitar, sometimes maybe just a voice and a blurping sound, you know, so it's, there's some really basic.
59:29 Speaker 04 Stuff happening and then there's some really expansive and modern stuff happening. But so, yeah.
59:35 Jonathan Fields? Sometimes within the same song.
59:36 Speaker 04 Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So that was the, that was the collaboration that I was hoping for. So BJ really brought it.
59:43 Jonathan Fields? I was so curious. I've heard you say that the way that you developed this and told me if this is right is you kind of did the music first and you laid it down on guitar and then your voice and sent it to him to sort of like do his thing.
59:57 Jonathan Fields? I'm so curious like what the difference was between those early tracks that you sent him and then what you got back from him? And were you kind of like, whoa?
1:00:03 Speaker 04 Yeah. Some of it took some acclimating, you know, on my part, you know, where
1:00:13 Speaker 04 you know, the guitar, for instance, is, is de-emphasized on a lot of the moments on that record.
1:00:22 Speaker 04 You know, and subliminally within myself, I consider that, you know, half my voice, you know, right? So it's like, wait, what?
1:00:31 Jonathan Fields? Where'd you go?
1:00:32 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:00:35 Speaker 04 So sometimes I had to take a beat and just be like, okay, all right, why not? Why not? You know, and
1:00:46 Speaker 04 people were, I knew from conversations I was having when the record came out, they were, you know, sometimes the guitar was eliminated, sometimes it was turned into a whole other sound, you know, and people, so this sort of murky keyboard that starts the record, no, that's my guitar. It's, it's actually all my guitar, all these sounds, which is the cool.
1:01:08 Jonathan Fields? Oh, that's wild.
1:01:09 Speaker 04 You know, BJ lives in a spaceship, you know, I mean, seriously, if I could show you a picture of his studio, it's just like NASA or something, but more colorful, you know, like, what are all these?
1:01:20 Jonathan Fields? So those are like all just manipulated guitar?
1:01:22 Speaker 04 Yeah. Yeah, for the most part. Like, he really did take the raw materials I sent him. And, you know, make, you know, decoupage or whatever. He was like, he just using them to create is like found sculpture.
1:01:41 Jonathan Fields? Very different and I, I, I loved it. I was like, this is really interesting and different and cool. And it also like, it kept the essence of you, but you're still front and center. The last song on the album, I think it's the last song, The Knowing,
1:01:59 Jonathan Fields? which really landed for me. You know, and this is a song which basically says underneath this and this and this and this, there is a knowing that other people might not see, but you know, like this is, this is true for you. So if I were to turn that back on you and say like underneath, on the musician, underneath on the parent, the performer, the public personality, like what is the knowing? Like, what is the, like the deep true truth in you? What bubbles up?
1:02:35 Speaker 04 I mean,
1:02:38 Speaker 04 that, you know, we are, I am, and we are one with source and with each other. And, and we're actually, you know, it's funny, all this
1:02:53 Speaker 04 talking we did about opponents, cause as I get older, I'm more aware that there's actually no such thing as an opponent. We're all actually on the same side. That's the bummer. That's the deep bummer. Our lack of recognition that we actually all come here with the same purpose. We're united, we're on the same team. And we're just trying to move the needle towards unconditional love and compassion. And we're teaching each other about this goal, about this united purpose in brutal ways.
1:03:38 Speaker 04 But we're actually have the same purpose. And some of us are doing better than others and some days better than other days. And, but yeah, in this age of identity.
1:03:53 Speaker 04 You know, I do worry about how much our investment in our individual identities and stories and labels are in the way of the recognition of that oneness and that united goal. So that's, yeah, "The Knowing" is possibly my favorite song on the new record because it, it sort of encompasses everything I've been working on internally and moving towards in this phase of my life, which is just trying to stay in that awareness that even the most
1:04:35 Speaker 04 brutal people in my life are here to help me achieve that goal and I them.
1:04:40 Jonathan Fields? Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So, last question. In this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase "to live a good life", what comes up?
1:04:51 Speaker 04 I think having something that you're really inspired to do and being free to do it, and then having people and other beings that are not human being connected, just being in your purpose and being connected, in a sentence.
1:05:18 Jonathan Fields? Thank you. Okay, before you leave, if you loved this episode, say, but you'll also love the conversation we had with Zoe Bookbinder, joined by Ani DiFranco and Nathan Brown about the Prison Music Project, a powerful collaboration born inside New Folsom Prison that became the album "Long Time Gone," produced by Ani and featuring songs written with incarcerated and formerly incarcerated musicians. You'll find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too.
1:06:03 Jonathan Fields? If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor. Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome, too. But just one person even, then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.
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