This Might Be the Missing Link to a Good Life | Shigehiro Oishi

Discover the secret to living a truly rich and fulfilling life beyond happiness and meaning. Renowned psychologist Shigehiro Oishi shatters conventional wisdom, revealing the path to a psychologically enriching existence through novel experiences, diverse emotions, and perspective-shifting insights. Embrace adventure, unlock new dimensions of vitality, and gain powerful strategies to navigate life's uncertainties with openness and curiosity. You can find Shigehiro at: Website https://psychology.uchicago.edu/directory/Shigehiro-Oishi | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/novelty-perspective-richness-shigehiro-oishi If you LOVED this episode, you’ll also love the conversations we had with Corey Keyes https://episodes.fm/647826736/episode/NjdkOWFmNDNkNzllOWUxOTkxZmQzNjQw about escaping the epidemic of languishing. Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the Wheel https://jonathanfields.substack.com/aboutVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jonathan Fields?

  So have you ever felt like something kind of crucial was missing from your life, even when you achieved success and hit all the quote happiness milestones? Maybe like a voice inside whispered, there must be something more, a richer, more vibrant way of moving through the world? Well, if that's been your experience, my guest today just may blow open your concept of what it truly means to live a rich, fulfilling existence. Renowned psychologist Shigehiro Oishi exposes the pitfalls of rigid happiness chasing and reveals the radical path to a psychologically rich life. One brimming with novel adventures and diverse emotional textures and profound perspective shifts, and you'll discover really powerful mindset pivots to navigate uncertainty with

• 0:44Jonathan Fields?

  curiosity instead of anxiety, plus simple strategies to savor and embed life's richest moments into lasting personal growth. Shigehiro is a professor of psychology at the University of Chicago and a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, who has received numerous honors, and his trailblazing research explores the components of a truly rich life across cultures. His insights really shatter conventional wisdom around happiness and meaning, and he reveals how aesthetic experiences and playfulness can unlock untapped dimensions of vitality, sharing three essential ingredients for curating a psychologically rich existence. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.

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• 3:11Jonathan Fields?

  Super excited to dive into your work. I've spent considerable amount of time talking to so many folks who I would imagine in some way you consider colleagues, folks in the world of social sciences, part of psychology, and really deepening into what makes a good life, which is really what this show has been all about for so many years. We've explored happiness a lot. We've explored meaningfulness a lot. We've explored relationships. And you introduced sort of like a third element, psychological richness, which I'm super excited to dive into. Before we get there, though, let's talk about a couple of other things. One of the things that you speak about is this tension between a life of stability, of certainty, of predictability, and a life of openness, a life of exploration.

• 3:56Jonathan Fields?

  Tease this out a bit for me.

• 3:58Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think to me, a lot of like important life decisions are about the class's famous, you know, song, Should I Stay or Should I Go? I mean, you have a job, then the big question, especially when there is something, new opportunity comes, you know, around, then should I stay with what I have or should I, should I go? And then relationship, of course, is the same way. Buying a new house or not is a new way. But even the small everyday decisions, I think, is really about, or should I go to my favorite restaurant again? Or should I try something new? So I think the life of stability versus adventure is not just about the entire life,

• 4:43Speaker 07

  but also everyday life. And it turned out, I mean, what was really surprising to me after doing happiness research for over 20 years, was that usually the core of the happy life are more stable type of life. Like number one predictor, as you know, is a close relationships. So obviously, the more stable it is, the better it is for your happiness, right? So I think, I think this, this stability, stable life versus life of explorations or adventure is indeed at the core of what is good life.

• 5:22Speaker 07

  And maybe, you know, some happiness is a little bit lean toward the, the stable life. Meaningful life is probably lean toward the stable life because in order for you to feel like you're making difference in the world, you cannot just volunteer once or twice. You have to do it week after week for a long, you know, extended period of time. So that's what sort of motivated me to think about, oh, if all the good things about like happiness and the meaning revolving around the stable, you know, life, then what about those people who have like really adventurous life? Are they not leading a good life?

• 6:02Speaker 07

  You know, Anthony Bourdain, for instance, it's like crazy life in many way, but a lot of people admire that type of life as well as life of mother theorists and, you know. And so forth. So anyway.

• 6:17Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, it is really interesting. It's interesting that you bring up this notion of equating happiness and equating meaning with stability. My personal experience, it's changed over the seasons of my life. I think when I was younger, I probably made less of that correlation. You know, for me, it was like, let me try new things. Let me play. Let me start a new company. Let me go, you know, do all these different things. That sort of freewheeling, creative expression, you know, like changing jobs, changing careers. For me, that was the root of happiness. That was the root of like, I found meaning. I found expression. I found significance in change, in a lack of stability. And then, you know, I move into a later season of life where I become married, I become a parent.

• 6:57Jonathan Fields?

  And something, it's like a, you know, a switch flips in me. And all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, you know, the correlation for, you know, like happiness and meaning. So I wonder if you see this sort of like a seasonal change in these things.

• 7:10Speaker 07

  Definitely. And there are individual differences too, that the sensation seeker, you know, we have a paper about sensation seekers and how daily physical pleasure really matters to them. Whereas those of us who are not really sensation seekers, like a physical sensation of pleasure doesn't matter that much day to day. So there are individual differences. Of course, there is a life stage differences. The younger people need a lot more stimulation than the older people. So I, I think it is true that on average, there are life, life stage differences, individual differences in terms of preference for the stable factor versus more unstable or unpredictable or challenging factors.

• 7:56Speaker 07

  At the same time, which way is easier for you to get to sort of the state of happiness? Then I think overall, actually for you, it is probably easier for now, feel like you're satisfied with your life, you find your life to be meaningful and so forth. Done. When you are just changing the job and starting new company and so forth, there's excitement probably, but were you really content and peaceful and satisfied with your choice at that moment? Maybe, but maybe not, you know? I don't know. I mean, what, what, are you completely happy? At the time.

• 8:33Jonathan Fields?

  It's fine. Of course, there are windows of just profound unhappiness mixed in with profound happiness, especially when you're an entrepreneur. There's, you know, wild swings up and down and there's, it's a very jagged curve.

• 8:44Speaker 07

  Right.

• 8:45Jonathan Fields?

  But you brought up this phrase sensation seekers, which now I'm really curious about. Tell me more about what you mean when you use the phrase sensation seekers and how do you know if this is you?

• 8:54Speaker 07

  Yeah. Oh, so sensation seeking is, well, there is a famous scale, like self-report scale. So those people who score high on sensation seeking is constantly seeking new stimulation. So going, going to, you know, bungee jumping and dangerous skateboarding and surfing. And so essentially sort of like you look at the checklist of things you really like to do and how dangerous are they? And if for you, the things you really like to do are very dangerous, then that's, that's probably your, your sensation seeker. On the other hand, what you really want to do is sit in a quiet room and read Jane Austen.

• 9:37Speaker 07

  Then probably you're not sensation seeker. So there are scales to measure that.

• 9:42Jonathan Fields?

  I'm going through my head and I'm thinking, there are times where I actually like to do that. Like as we had this conversation, I'm just back from three days of snowboarding at altitude in Colorado. And I also just want to curl up at like, you know, on my couch later this afternoon and spend hours just diving into a new book. So is it more a state or a trait?

• 10:00Speaker 07

  There are state, but also trait as well. I mean, some people need constant stimulation, right? So let's say you just did the snowboarding, but then after just a day or two, oh, I just need something else. I'm, I, I feel bored. So it's, it's almost combined with the boredom ploneness. That you need this high in order for you to get going. Whereas other people are like occasionally, yeah, they enjoy this, this skate, you know, snowboardings or skating or whatever. But then it's not like a, you know, after a week or so, they feel like deprived.

• 10:39Speaker 07

  The true sensation seekers always feel deprived after like, you know, not doing these kinds of things for a while. So, so you can think of this almost as an addiction to, you know, three second, essentially. You just need the thrills.

• 10:54Jonathan Fields?

  Right. Yeah, that would not be me, actually.

• 10:58Speaker 07

  Sort of trait sensation seeker versus sort of the state occasional, you know, sensation seeker. So I was speaking of those those trait sensation seekers. Yeah.

• 11:10Jonathan Fields?

  Right. Where you sort of open your eyes in the morning and this is like your dominant mode. Like, I need to go out and have this super heightened level of sensation and stimulation.

• 11:18Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's right.

• 11:19Jonathan Fields?

  And and potentially risk, it sounds like, as a part of that in some way, shape.

• 11:22Speaker 07

  Yeah, risk is risk is part of that too. Yeah, for sure.

• 11:25Jonathan Fields?

  You know, you you brought up happiness and meaning. And again, some of the things that you talk about are some of the the mythology around it. You know, you you literally label both as being, you know, happiness isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there is a happiness trap. Meaning isn't necessarily a bad thing, but like, there can be a trap side. Walk me through. Let's let's start with happiness. What are we talking about when we're talking about a happiness trap?

• 11:49Speaker 07

  I think when we are talking about happiness trap, it's the the sense that you have to be happy. And also, another thing I think is that very interesting fact is that traditionally, happiness was essentially about good luck and fortune.

• 12:07Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 12:07Speaker 07

  So English word hap, right hapless hap was luck. You know, if you look at the Webster Unabridged Dictionary from the 1800s, that's that's the definition. But in 1962, they essentially said, good luck and fortune is the archaic definition of happiness. So it became sort of out of fashion. Now, the happiness is defined as something like the satisfaction of one's desires and needs. And even more, if I ask American audience, what is happiness to you? What kind of words do you sort of associate with the word happiness or somebody

• 12:48Speaker 07

  being happy? A lot of people say, oh, somebody who is really successful. And, you know, happiness is a sign of personal success. Or one person even wrote victory.

• 13:01Speaker 07

  And that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. But now you really clearly see, if you're seeing the happiness as a sign of personal success, then you're much more likely to see unhappiness as a personal failure. Right? And it's really, really painful then to accept these negative events. And as we know, negative things happens. Like, look at the LA, it's like, you know, wildfires. That's not your fault at all, but just these things happens. And when you're trying to, you know, tell yourself, oh, I have to be happy. I should be happy about my life and so on. It is really difficult to take this negative.

• 13:44Speaker 07

  Now consider happiness is a good luck and fortune. Then unhappiness is simply you're being unlucky. Then negative events and things like that are quite easy to accept. And you're not gonna get down, you know, it's like, oh, it was a bad luck. So I'll try again. But if you think that happiness is a sign of personal, you know, success, and I don't feel happy about my life, then I feel like a loser. And that really is a not a good way to move forward. So that's why I call it, you know, happiness trap. And indeed, interestingly, the research shows that the Barry Schultes famous, you know,

• 14:26Speaker 07

  maximizing versus satisficing research that actually there's a satisfizer who can say, oh, this is good enough, are way more happier than the people who are just constantly thinking about and seeking what is better out there.

• 14:42Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, it's so fascinating when you, when you do equate happiness with success. And then, like you said, then you find yourself not happy. Maybe through circumstances entirely outside of your control at this particular moment. Then there's this script running that says, well, then I'm not successful. I'm not living a successful life. That it's like it piles on, it creates this downward spiral.

• 15:04Speaker 07

  It really does. Also, just make you avoid the potential danger. So I feel like, you know, John Height talks about the anxious generations. And I think anxious generation is really the generation they try to be happy.

• 15:21Speaker 07

  And they know, once they go outside of their comfort zone, then they could encounter something I expected, something they might not like, then they don't want to do it. That's another element of the happiness trap, that because you're so focused on maximizing positive emotions and minimizing negative emotions, you're just staying within the comfort zone and you're not challenging enough. And current generation, unfortunately, is not like you when you are young, trying all kinds of new things. And then they're becoming much, much, you know, less adventurous and risk-seeking.

• 16:00Jonathan Fields?

  That's so interesting. So you're basically saying that if you view not being happy as, quote, "some sort of personal failure", then that may sort of make you less likely to start to try all these different things that may add incredibly to your life, but you see them as having a risk of failure because you don't want to have that failure because that means you're not happy. And that translates to being not successful. And then the eyes of your peers around you. Yeah, that's so interesting, the way it all ties together like that, rather than saying, "I may try this thing, it may not work. I may not be happy for a moment in time." And that's actually okay, that's just part of the human condition.

• 16:38Speaker 07

  Exactly. You see, like, I've been teaching at the university for so long. So always some students, first question is, "Is this class easy? Can I get an A in this class, right?" There are always students like that. But I feel like more and more, students are so concerned about the grades. And yes, it is competitive. You have to have a very high GPA to get into consulting firm or whatever. But that's the same phenomenon. Like, you're trying to maximize happiness and trying to maximize your GPA. Then what happens is that you're not taking challenging classes or the courses that really, truly interest you, perhaps.

• 17:22Speaker 07

  Rather, you're choosing the easy A. Unfortunately, those are a lot of psychology courses. So I welcome those in some way, but at the same time, I feel like they should be ready for a challenge.

• 17:34Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, that's so interesting. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

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• 19:13Jonathan Fields?

  You also speak to what you describe as a meaning trap. There's sort of almost like a risk of obsessive meaning seeking. Take me deeper into this.

• 19:21Speaker 07

  I think the trap, one part is that when you think about somebody who led the meaningful life or leading meaningful life, we often think about super famous person like Mother Teresa. Obviously led the life of meaning. I mean, she just worked and worked for the others in Calcutta and I, her life. Or Steve Jobs who changed essentially the world, right? So oftentimes, I think in graduation speech, the speech...

• 19:52Speaker 07

  Speaker always say, find your passion, go out there and change the world. But I mean, how many people can do that really? So, so it's setting up a really, really high bar for the meaningful life. So a lot of us feel like, oh, maybe my life is not that meaningful. Because what kind of difference am I making in the world? But at the same time, ironically, just like a happiness trap, you know, empirical findings about meaning is very, very different from this, this pre notion of meaningful life is something grand. Actually, ninety percent of Americans say their life is meaningful. How could it be, right?

• 20:34Speaker 07

  Ninety percent of Americans really making a huge difference in the world?

• 20:38Jonathan Fields?

  But yeah, I mean, by definition, you can't be that outlier if you're ninety percent.

• 20:42Speaker 07

  No. So what they find meaning is a small thing in life, right? Raising kids, of course, it takes a lot of time. And every day you're just trying hard to help them. Or, you know, helping out Asian parents or just doing, you know, coaching Little League baseball. You know, those are the things that gives you a sense of meaning. But that's a pretty small, like you have to choose one or two particular causes, right? In order to do it repeatedly, making a difference and seeing the difference that effort, you know, gave rise to. So that's perfectly fine. I have nothing against happiness or nothing against meaning.

• 21:26Speaker 07

  Indeed, twenty five years, I, I still do happiness research. I still do meaning. I think the happiness and meaning important path to the good life. But the recent findings, and this was really disturbing to me personally, that Laura King's lab found that those people who endorse right wing authoritarianism, I mean, this right wing authoritarianism scale is like you have to obey to the authority no matter what. I mean, it's, it's like very extreme. And it turned out those people who endorse those items tend to report that their lives are more meaningful than the people who do not endorse right wing authoritarianism.

• 22:10Speaker 07

  So what's happening is that some cases you can just draw narrow sort of the in-group, these are the people I care. And I draw meaning, I find meaning from, you know, helping these small number of. But then sometimes these people don't care about others. So that's the potential misplaced meaning in life. That that sometimes meaningful life seems to be very, very narrow. In some case, might be harmful to, you know, others.

• 22:41Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, it's so interesting because when you hear the conversation around meaning, it's pretty much always framed in a positive. You know, this is, and you're not saying that meaning is a bad thing. You're saying like, meaning is important, meaning matters, you know, like we all want more of it. It's a part of a life well lived. But there is a almost, I would almost describe it as like, there's an, there's an overexpression or an extreme expression or a particular expression of meaning seeking that can become very insular and very isolating. Even though when you're in it, to you, it feels deeply meaningful, but it makes your world smaller and potentially even can end up causing harm to those outside of that small world. Did I get that right?

• 23:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, definitely. I mean, extreme example is really like why some people join terrorist organization. And, you know, one of the reasons is that terrorist organization, of course, gives you the guiding principle of how you live your life and how you sacrifice your life for the greater, you know, good. But sometimes, of course, if it's a terrorist organization, you have the target group to harm. So maybe this is obviously extreme case, but you don't have meaning in life. Therefore, you join particular group and then you feel like you're enlightened. And now you have a sense of mission. I know how to devote my life.

• 24:05Speaker 07

  But some case that that could hurt the other people who are not within your group. So that's the part of the meaning trap. I mean, extreme case.

• 24:16Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, yeah, no, of course. If we accept that happiness matters to a life we live, we accept that meaning matters to a life we live, and also that both of those, there's a potential dark side. I would imagine there is to anything that is expressed in a dysfunctional way, right?

• 24:30Speaker 07

  Definitely.

• 24:30Jonathan Fields?

  Then you introduce this third concept, which I think is really fascinating, which is this idea that you call psychological richness. So take me into this.

• 24:39Speaker 07

  Yeah, so we define psychologically rich life as a life filled with interesting, unusual, diverse experiences. And oftentimes, these experiences come with a change in perspective. And here, we are talking about, you know, a lot of changes in your life and, you know, you're experiencing different things in the different phase of your life or, you know, different years and things like that. So isn't that much of stability in your life, maybe? But instead, you, you know, one year, you study abroad in Mexico.

• 25:21Speaker 07

  You know, another year, there's a job offer from Singapore and might move to Singapore. And it's kind of interesting. The people who do study abroad, for instance, I mean, study abroad is hard. If you don't speak the language there, all of a sudden, you feel like you're the dumbest person on earth. So that in terms of happiness, it's not a happiness maximizing strategy to do study abroad if you're not being able to speak the language, for instance, or don't know the custom. And sometimes, you know, if you live in a different culture, your meaning system and beliefs are challenged. So sometimes you feel like, oh, what am I doing? What I believe to be the meaningful path might not be the necessarily meaningful path.

• 26:06Speaker 07

  But these students, after the study abroad, come back with a fresh, new perspective. And then they know, oh, I learned really something new. I didn't know, you know, these things happens and, you know, could be valuable and so forth. So the experience like study abroad, it is very hard to quantify. What's the utility? What's the value? If you measure happiness, not much there. If you measure meaning, not much there either. But if you measure in terms of psychological richness or richness of experiences, then definitely study abroad is adding a lot. Moving to a new city is another one that it doesn't really make people happy.

• 26:50Speaker 07

  So this is a prediction error oftentimes, right? People take a job of a-

• 26:54Jonathan Fields?

  It's like, I'm gonna go to this new place, everything will be better.

• 26:56Speaker 07

  Yeah, exactly.

• 26:57Jonathan Fields?

  More exciting, more friends, new, yeah, yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 07

  Exactly, you know, oh, I'm gonna make, you know, gonna make a lot more money and then, you know, it's gonna be great. And it's like, okay, you have a new job. Yeah, you know, your pay might have increased, but well, you have to get to know all the new people. You don't know how things work and it's really frustrating and so forth. So if you look at the happiness, I mean, some move obviously is happiness producing, but some moves and many of them are not very much happiness enhancing at all. These kinds of decisions people make, like, should I go, should I stay? And then when they go, if you just look at this as a, you know, happiness, as an ultimate outcome, then it's not a good decision.

• 27:45Speaker 07

  But at the same time, if you use this third dimension of psychological richness, do you have more interesting stories to tell? Probably yes. Was it hard? Yes, very, very hard. Would I do it again? Maybe. Psychological richness to me is just trying to capture the aspects of life that people admire, but not really well captured by the existing concepts like happiness and meaning. And particularly experience like a study abroad or taking job abroad, moving to a new city, putting yourself in a new, new environment. Those are the things that like, I think people admire. Objectively speaking, there is something admirable about those kinds of, you know, life.

• 28:30Speaker 07

  If you just measure happiness or meaning, you're not capturing those. So my hope is to capture these kinds of adventurous life as a third way and third path to a good life.

• 28:44Jonathan Fields?

  It is so interesting, right? Because so often we judge what we've done by did it make me happier? Was it meaningful? Or when we're looking at something to potentially and asking ourselves, should I do this or should I not do it? We're like, well, do I think it'll make me happier? Do I think it'll have meaning in it? And you're offering like a third metric here. You're saying, well, it actually might not have either, at least in the moment. But if it adds adventure, exploration, stories, you know, like to your life, there's this, it adds to this experience of psychological richness. And that that is on par with, you know, like these other elements of happiness and meaning in what actually makes for a life well lived. So this is something to consider in your decision making process as well.

• 29:28Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Sort of the, in the long run, if you lived very comfortable life and you know, you're already happy, happy with what you have. And at the end of life, at, you know, deathbed, you might say, yeah, I had a good life. I was happy. On the other hand, if you let that life and never challenge yourself when beyond the comfort zone, then would you, would you become a wise person? Wiser than, you know, you could have been? Probably not. So I feel like somebody who led the psychological rich life, they might not necessarily say it was fun. I led a happy life.

• 30:10Speaker 07

  But at the same time, I think they can say that, oh, I learned a lot. I feel like I'm much wiser. So the wisdom to me is the, the big sort of the reward for leading the psychological rich life. But at the same time, some people are so stressed out and they want to be, you know, happy. So then there's a good strategy already, right? Just have coffee with your friends, enjoy your dinner with your wife or, you know, siblings. That's great. That's great. You should do it. But if that's not for you, then maybe there's another way as well.

• 30:47Jonathan Fields?

  And I'm glad you actually shared that because there will be some people who are listening to this saying like, I'm feeling like life isn't quite what I want it to be. And I'm wondering what else could be, you know, a part of it. And so you offer this notion of psychological richness and exploration. And at the same time, you're, it's almost like in Buddhism, like you have a monastic path and a householder path. And in either way, it's sort of saying like, you're still doing the thing. But everyone comes to this moment, to this season of life with a different history, with a different set of expectations and with different set points for what will make them feel nourished, make them feel like they're flourishing. So maybe there are folks who are actually just having a very quiet, deeply connected life with people around them and with, you know, like a place where they are. That actually is enough. Like, that's really good.

• 31:32Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's great. So I think that, I mean, those people who are completely content, satisfied with what they have, and they know exactly what they want. So like, oftentimes, right, like international survey of happiest country, those are like Finland, Norway, and so forth. But then you read about them, like, what's the secret to happiness? And they all say, oh, we don't expect too much. We know what's enough. So I think if that's what you want, and then that's, that's exactly like what you should be pursuing, that's, that's great. And you know exactly what you like. And you can get it, because we know how to get there.

• 32:10Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, that brings up another really interesting point was this notion that happiness or fulfillment, the definition of that varies dramatically based on culture. One culture may say like, you know, you keep your expectations pretty low, and then it's easier to hit that bar. And then you feel like, good, like, I'm doing the thing. You know, I'm succeeding. I'm checking those boxes. Whereas you get another country or another culture, or maybe just another community or a group, which has a completely different bar. And you feel like, well, it's almost unattainable, so that I'm not living that life that I want to live. And it speaks to how subjective this often is.

• 32:47Speaker 07

  It really is. And I think that William James said it really nicely, that you can increase. So he was talking about self-esteem, but I'm just replacing self-esteem with the happiness. But you can maximize happiness by achieving all your ambitions you had, right? So that's sort of the American approach. I have these kinds of, you know, ambitions, and I want to achieve them. And when you achieve them, yeah, you are probably happy, at least for a while. Other way to do it? Why do you need to achieve all those? Just reduce the ambition to one or two manageable ones. Then all you need to do is achieve just the two things and then you're equally happy. So these are two completely different approaches.

• 33:32Speaker 07

  There are cultural variations. There are individual differences, you know, developmental stage differences. But it is interesting and I I do a lot of cross cultural research. So one really interesting research here is that we just asked my colleague in thirty, you know, different countries. What is happiness? The word happiness in your own language? And then just could you look it up? The definition of happiness in the most authoritative dictionary in your own language? And then just could you, you know, translate that into English? So we can look at the, you know, meaning. Twenty four out of thirty countries, primary definition of happiness are still good luck and fortune. And six countries are not.

• 34:16Speaker 07

  And of course, the US is one of them.

• 34:18Jonathan Fields?

  Of course, right. US is like more stuff.

• 34:22Speaker 07

  Yeah, more stuff. Satisfaction of my needs.

• 34:26Jonathan Fields?

  Right, right, right. Not that either one is necessarily good or bad. It's just it's interesting to see how the how the cultural differences really can can affect those definitions. And those definitions affect how we perceive ourselves and what we strive for.

• 34:38Speaker 07

  Exactly. That approach to happiness is completely different. As you said, the Nordic approach to happiness is appreciating what you have. And traditionally, American approaches is just to go out there and pursue actively and try to achieve as many things as possible. So that could be very exhausting path to, you know, happiness.

• 35:01Jonathan Fields?

  And I think a lot of people are are finding that right now. They're finding they're burned out, they're exhausted, they're overwhelmed and trying to figure out, why am I feeling this way? And there may be probably even checking so many of the boxes that they aspire to check. Yet they're not feeling the way they want to feel. And it's like, well, maybe our fundamental definition of is is in some way off. Because it's not, we're doing all the things, but we're not feeling it the way that. We want to feel.

• 35:28Speaker 07

  Exactly. And just to be fair, really, one of the earliest, most important finding from happiness research was exactly that, right? Like Dan Gilbert's affective forecasting era, like we think the promotions or wedding or something like that will make us happy. Not really. I mean, it it does make us happy, but it doesn't last that long. And what makes us happy is the little things. So it's happiness is not an intensity, but the frequency of the positive emotions. So that's why interpersonal relationship is so important, because your friends and your partner will make you happy

• 36:09Speaker 07

  every day. Promotion, I don't know. How often do you get promotion? I don't even know, like once every five years, 10 years? So you shouldn't depend your happiness on that infrequent intense events. You should really focus on everyday experiences. And that's the key. If you want to be happy.

• 36:30Jonathan Fields?

  I remember reading Dan's work on affective forecasting and was blown away when I if I have this right, I remember he was saying the research shows that we tend to think that 20 years out, we're really good at predicting how we would feel if we check these spots. If we're, you know, have a partner, if we have a job, if you have certain money in the bank, if we have a house, and we are notoriously horrible at that. In fact, from what I remember, the research showed that if we ask a stranger who is 20 years further down the road, who has those things we aspire to, how they feel, their answer is going to be more accurate than our answer would eventually be for ourselves in that time window, because we're just terrible at figuring out like how things will make us feel.

• 37:10Speaker 07

  Yeah. And in my lab, when I was in graduate school at Dena's, looked at the longitudinal studies about life events. And essentially, the effect of these engagements or promotion, it lasts only three months to six months. That's it. So we just adapt, hedonic adaptation is everywhere. So it is really difficult to rely on these big events. But the little one, it happens often. So that's the reliable source of happiness.

• 37:37Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, so let's drop a little bit more in detail into this this experience of psychological richness. It sounds like, okay, so here's an it's effectively like here's another bucket that we can explore filling to feel the way we want to feel and live the life we want to live. So what are the ingredients here? It sounds like one of them is probably some level of novelty, like like something new and different.

• 37:58Speaker 07

  It's interesting. We started out with the focus group. So I ask undergraduates in my lab, so just think about what you did last weekend. What was the happy event? Yeah, the usual thing. And then the meaningful event, the usual thing. I said, okay, what was the psychologically rich event? What I mean is something interesting, you know, something unusual. And then the one person, Grace, did this interesting thing. Over the weekend, she went to professional wrestling match. And she she never had, you know, been to that kind of stuff. So she had the, you know, stereotype, oh, these are like orchestrated violence with just a fake stuff. But she went there and realized that, you know, there are a lot of little kids.

• 38:42Speaker 07

  And why they're little kids in the professional, you know, wrestling match? And then later she realized that that WWE is really doing huge anti bullying campaigns. So these bullied kids come here and root for these professional wrestlers and wrestlers are the hero for them. So she came back. This is very unusual experiences. You don't go to professional wrestling match every day. And indeed, this was the first time she went there. She experienced a lot of different kinds of emotions. And of course, came back with a completely perspective, completely different perspective on professional wrestlers and professional wrestling organization.

• 39:24Speaker 07

  So this was really psychologically rich experiences because there were these three ingredients. Okay, another student, Rachel, the same weekend.

• 39:35Speaker 07

  She reported this interesting unusual experience, which is she lives in apartment. She went to the lounge and then she found this guy typing something, but completely naked. So it's like she's wondering like, what is he doing here naked typing, right? Like weird guy. But then she thought, is it hot? No, it's not even hot. Is he hot? I mean, the physically attractive? No, he's not even like a well-built. This guy is not like showing off his muscle or anything like that. So she reports coming back, that was really weird and interesting unusual experience. Right? Is this psychologically rich experience?

• 40:16Speaker 07

  No, because this experience did not change her perspective in life or perspective on young men or whatever at all. So obviously the novelty, unusualness and things like that are important ingredient. But I think crucial difference, what makes some experience really psychologically deeper and interesting versus not is the variety of emotions experienced in that during the activities. But also you really have to have something like change. So, so we earlier talked about, you know, study abroad. And what's amazing about study abroad is of course you're so frustrated.

• 40:58Speaker 07

  You, you, you, you have really diverse, different kinds of emotions. Right? And also you really often come away with a very different perspective in life. So I think the psychological rich experience has to have those novelty, diversity of sort of the emotional experience, some complexity, but also sort of this, this new perspective changing insight.

• 41:25Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, so that's so interesting. So effectively three ingredients, if I have it right. One is novelty. So it's got to be new and different from what you would normally do. The second is a variety or diversity of emotions wrapped up in it. And the third. Is perspective changing like you can't walk away kind of feeling the same way about yourself or the world like something has to shift.

• 41:45Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 41:46Jonathan Fields?

  It's fascinating because when you think about, you know, the thing that pops to my mind that sort of checks those boxes for a lot of people is travel. You know, I think that's why a lot of people go to and travel to places which are not sort of necessarily comfortable for you, maybe to another country with a radically diverse culture, a language that you don't understand or speak. And then rather than just going on the tourist bus and and checking the boxes, but actually spending time with people and understanding the culture, it's really uncomfortable oftentimes. But if you're there long enough and you're curious enough, you come away, not just with great stories to tell, but you really like you see yourself and and the world differently. But the thing that was popping into my mind also, because a lot of people may be listening to this, well, that's lovely for those who

• 42:31Jonathan Fields?

  can like do that type of travel. But what about the rest of us? And I would imagine, you know, like, you can get similar experiences all day, every day, just in your local community. So this is not a thing where, you know, you have to have resources or privilege to actually drop into this.

• 42:46Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, Good Will Hunting is a good, good case, right? Will Hunting said famously, you don't have to spend hundred fifty thousand dollars for the fancy education. All you need is a library card and maybe a, you know, dollar fifty they charge. And you can go to library and read incredible novels, go through, right? Unbelievable amount of, I mean, Anna Karenina, for instance, I mean, just go up and down the emotionally and, you know, come away with a completely different concept of love or your life and things like that. So definitely you can do it without spending a lot of money. I mean, movie nowadays is expensive, but even movie, right? Some movie is just like fun and you just come

• 43:30Speaker 07

  away and oh, spend two hours like it was fun. Whereas some movie is really deep, disturbing sometimes, but does change you, remains you, stays with you. So I think there are a lot of opportunities out there without spending too much money to expose yourself to the different kinds of experiences vicariously and you can really, really feel like, oh, I see the world in a very different way now. Or I can see that, you know, viewpoint.

• 44:01Jonathan Fields?

  I love that because it's so accessible. You think about books that take you somewhere and leave you changed. Documentaries, like fantastic documentaries where you're just like, wow. I recently watched a documentary about about about waste, actually. And my mind was blown. It wasn't something I had ever been exposed to before in that way. And I was like, I have changed my behavior since. Like, I've seen things differently and it really affected me, you know? So I love this invitation that says that you don't necessarily have to be the protagonist in the story. You can be the one who's the witness and that experience can also have this effect.

• 44:35Speaker 07

  Yeah, definitely. And some of the experiences that are probably most psychologically rich are not even like intentional one. A lot of people say, oh, when I was like fifth grade, there was a huge earthquake. And, you know, I lost my house and everything. So it's a terrible story at the beginning. But then often time they see something really unusual, right? The neighbors that they never talked to came over and helped us like search our dog. And then you really see the humanities in a very, very different way. So over time, you can reconstruct that earthquake experience as, you know,

• 45:19Speaker 07

  psychologically rich experience. Is it a painful experience? Of course, it's extremely painful experience. Does it add to your meaning? Not really, but you have some extraordinary experience in your pocket. And you see the world thanks to that very differently. And my research also showed that those people who experience natural disaster, they tend to become way more pro-social. They are much more likely to seek pro-social occupations. So social workers, teachers, the probability of then becoming those are much, much higher compared to those who never experienced. So.

• 45:59Speaker 07

  To me, the psychological rich experiences or opportunities are out there. Not necessarily you have to just constantly seek yourself.

• 46:10Jonathan Fields?

  Right. Sometimes they're just things that happen to you or around you.

• 46:13Speaker 07

  Exactly.

• 46:14Jonathan Fields?

  I think it also speaks to the role of potentially adversity, you know, and and it gives us a frame. It gives us, you know, a way to frame adversity potentially is we're not saying this is a good thing. You should go go seeking horrible things, but if you're alive long enough, bad things happen. But if you have the frame that says, you know, like, as I meet adversity, whether I invited it or not, that maybe there is a way for this to actually affect me in a way that it adds to my experience of life. It changes my perspective. It's, you know, it's novel. It's, you know, all the emotions are there. It shifts my perspective and I didn't ask for it. I didn't want it. But when I move through it, that it actually has added in a meaningful way to the way I'm living my life from that moment forward.

• 46:57Speaker 07

  Yeah, exactly.

• 46:59Jonathan Fields?

  As you're describing that, I was I was living in New York City for many years and I was there during nine 11. And that was my experience there was like profound, profound horror, you know, horror and shock and upset. And, you know, knowing people who didn't come home that day and but being in New York then has changed me. It gave me a worldview that says we are promised nothing. There's an urgency, not a frantic urgency, but there's an urgency to the way that I've lived my life since. That is different in a noticeable way, I think. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

• 47:35Jonathan Fields?

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• 49:05Jonathan Fields?

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• 50:16Jonathan Fields?

  On the flip side of this, and this is one of the things that you speak about and write about, is this notion of playfulness as a quality that folds into psychological richness. Tease this out for me a bit also.

• 50:28Speaker 07

  So, playfulness is, according to Eric, you know, Ericsson, is that the escape from social and economic realities. We adults have so many responsibilities, like for me, I have to teach, I have to grade, obviously, I have to do a lot of things. But the playfulness or being playful means you take some time out from these realities. And he says reside in somewhere in between reality and fantasy. And of course, if you have a dog, right, then the dog lives in this, this area every day when he chased a tennis ball. If you have

• 51:11Speaker 07

  five years old, every day live in this reality and fantasy world in between, just that we adults have a lot of serious business to take care of. So we forget how to be playful. So, being playful is really being like five years old, being like a dog, and do a lot of pretend, and just forget about like what other people think about, which is actually very difficult things to do.

• 51:38Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I think we're, by the time we get older, like, we're so bound by social propriety. And so often, a part of that is, you know, like, there's a seriousness, there's a gravitas to the way you live your life. You know, the playfulness is the thing that you did when you were a kid. And when you, when you start to, like, be that way, you almost feel like uncomfortable because it's been trained out of us.

• 51:57Speaker 07

  Oh, it is very uncomfortable.

• 51:59Jonathan Fields?

  Right. But I wonder if you're in a place where everybody's doing that, where it becomes normalized, and all of a sudden, it's like, those are the moments where, you know, if you're, if you're at a concert for someone like you love, and just like, you know, there are tens of thousands of people all lost in the moment, and singing and dancing, even though like your normal life, you would never do that. But everyone around you is doing it. So you're like, oh, I'm okay doing this. And it can reconnect you, like, oh, I can feel this way, and that matters.

• 52:24Speaker 07

  Definitely, I think historically, if you look at like a festivals, right?

• 52:30Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 52:30Speaker 07

  Festival where like New Orleans, of course, you know, like you, you just like put the mask and just go crazy. And that's really organized way, like cultural defense against monotonic, like boring life. And the culture often creates the opportunity for everybody to be, you know, playful. Japan is an extremely serious country, as you might know. But then there's Obum Festival where we all just dance together. And of course, there's a karaoke box where you can go and sing and go crazy. So I think that it would be nice to have some easy outlet, like culturally approved outlet, like a concert,

• 53:13Speaker 07

  like the karaoke box and festivals. And those are the things that you can do. But then you can just sort of imitate that at home. And then you can, you can easily do the singing parties or dancing. It is difficult for like fifty something years old like myself. But, but I think, I think you, you can and we should occasionally for sure.

• 53:35Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, so great. And I think, I think some of us touch, you know, if you're fortunate, if you make a decision to become a parent and you have like a young child in the house, you drop into that just because that's what you do with a young kid, you know? It's like, that's, you know, you're kind of in it together. Um, but then they reach a certain age and like they, you know, it starts to like shift a little bit. And you're like, oh, I guess I'm not doing that anymore. And, and you probably never realized how much it added to your life to just be able to like have that freedom too.

• 54:00Speaker 07

  Definitely, definitely. So parenting is extremely difficult. Like happiness researchers knows that, you know, being parents is not really happiness-producing activities at all, meaning yes. But I think when the kids are small, it is really enrich your life because you play with kids and then you become kids. What you have to do is even when your kids begin teenager, you just have to find somebody to play with and be playful yourself.

• 54:29Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, yeah, you can't do it around them anymore because all you get is rollbacks.

• 54:32Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, I know. Teenage years are hard.

• 54:35Jonathan Fields?

  It's like drop me off two blocks from school.

• 54:37Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Teenagers are hard, I mean, hard, so.

• 54:41Jonathan Fields?

  One of the other things that you explore under, under this or like the, the umbrella of psychological richness is the notion of aesthetic experiences I thought was really interesting, like the, the value of beauty and art.

• 54:53Speaker 07

  You know, I personally love going to museums. So I've been thinking about like, what's the role of art? And does it increase happiness? Some, yes, right? Monet's, you know, beautiful painting might do, but at the same time, Picasso's and something like that would not necessarily do. And essentially, I came back and think that, yeah, I think that art is not really made to boost happiness or even give you a sense of meaning per se. Obviously, most of the artists just had something inside they wanted to just express.

• 55:34Speaker 07

  So they just did it, not for others, but often time for themselves. But some art really resonate, right? The way you feel about or just make you think about the life in a very different way. The Picasso's, like two women, like sitting together in one figure. And, you know, in Chicago Institute, there is one piece by Picasso, two women. And from one angle, it's his wife. And from the other angle, it's his lover. And then it's, he created this, right? Because he was so conflicted about, should I stay or should I go? And these things, right?

• 56:15Speaker 07

  Like when you see it initially, it's like, what is this weird, you know, painting? But then you learn about it and it's like, oh, wow. And now I see this and, you know, you think about your conflict or something like that. So I think those are the thing, again, it's new and gives you a new perspectives. And sometimes you feel like, oh, yeah, now I get it. Oh, you have to see it from this way. And then there's a behind the story like this. So how many things we do day to day gives you the opportunity to think about that hard and think about like these kinds of diverse, you know, perspectives? So I think art is just a wonderful way to transcend yourself

• 56:59Speaker 07

  and, you know, transport yourself from the detached from the everyday realities and just to live again in a fantasy world a little bit. And then you can just come back safely and then move on to with your life. So that's really a wonderful way to, I think, enrich your life.

• 57:18Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I so agree with that. I'm somebody who tends to love different forms of art also. And it's funny because I'll, I'll sometimes have a conversation with somebody and they'll say, I'm not an art person. Like, I just don't, I don't get art. Like, art's not my thing.

• 57:32Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:32Jonathan Fields?

  And I'm always kind of like raising eyebrow at that because I'm thinking to myself, well, like, that's like saying I don't like food. Okay, so maybe you don't like this kind of food, or this particular chef, or this restaurant, or this, you know, type of cuisine. But there's such a diversity of expression and sharing and beauty that is created and offered out. And when you find that one thing, you know, when you're walking through a museum and maybe there are, you know, forty exhibits and thirty-nine just do nothing for you. And then you stop in this one tiny one and your jaw drops and you're having trouble breathing. Your heart is beating. You have no idea what's happening to you. And you're like, oh, wow. This matters to me. Like, this, it's just so deeply powerful.

• 58:18Jonathan Fields?

  But, but I think similar to what we've been talking about here, let's bring this down to the everyday level. You know, like, we can have that aesthetic experience sitting on a front porch, you know, and just being present to what's around us.

• 58:30Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, you can just look up the sky and sometimes the crowd looks like a human rabbit or whatever, and sometimes you find it something new, right? And you don't have to just go to the museum all the time. But I think if you pay attention enough. In summer, I volunteer to water a street tree around. And, you know, like, once you start doing that every day, all of a sudden, it becomes my tree. And then it's just like, oh, my gosh, I see the new leaves here and so forth. And then, you know, those, those are the completely like new things you can add to your life without any money or anything. Just, just pay attention and then you find something.

• 59:11Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I love that, you know, because it also brings in this idea that to experience psychological richness, pretty much everything that we've talked about. It feels like to me, I'm curious if how this lines with you, that a unifying element is attentiveness, is awareness, is actually like not spinning about the future or the past, but like if you can really bring your attention to the moment and just, you know, become aware of like, what am I actually experiencing? That there's probably so much more opportunity to experience these things all around us all day, every day, than most of us even imagine.

• 59:46Speaker 07

  Yeah, definitely. It has a lot to do with attention. It has a lot to do with whether you talk about your observations. So it is nice to have partner or friends or kids who listen to you that, "Look, I heard this interesting talk today," or "I saw this," something like that. And you know, the memory, the way it works is unless you rehearse and you talk about it, it doesn't stay with you. You just forget. And once you forget, you're not really accumulating these experiences. So to me, psychological richness is just like material wealth and material richness. The materially rich people have a lot of assets or money in their banks and, you know,

• 1:00:31Speaker 07

  huge portfolio. Just like that, psychological richness is the currency now is instead of dollar, we're talking about the experience and the story. So then if you can just accumulate these interesting experiences and you have a lot of stories, then you have a very, very rich, psychologically rich portfolio. So in order to have that, that's why the sensation seeker, they do experience a lot of things, but they don't necessarily reflect upon and really keep it and, you know, store it in your memorabilia. So that's the things that you need to pay attention, but also you have to cherish that

• 1:01:12Speaker 07

  experience and you really have to, you want to store in your memorabilia and adds up so that psychologically speaking, you are really wealthy person.

• 1:01:23Jonathan Fields?

  Do you have a practical take on how to do that? I mean, is journaling, is it something where?

• 1:01:28Speaker 07

  So I think if you can do journal, I think that really, really helps.

• 1:01:34Jonathan Fields?

  I'm the same. I've tried it, just like it's never taken.

• 1:01:37Speaker 07

  I just cannot never do it. But at the same time, I feel very fortunate that I can talk to my wife and often, you know, reminisce and recall this trip. And, oh, do you remember that trip when we went this and that? And, you know, when you do it, you're just bringing back and then just like, you know, bringing this, this almost receding memory into back so that you don't, you don't, you know, lose these experiences. So I think, you know, to me, I just try to like talk about the interesting experience I had every day. And that's one way to sort of keep stock of these interesting experiences.

• 1:02:21Speaker 07

  But if you're a conscientious person, I think the journaling will work. If you're a sort of more visual person, taking photo, you know, every day or when, when, when you find something interesting and then keep it, then you have album of memorabilia for the future. So I think there are many different ways you can do it.

• 1:02:40Jonathan Fields?

  No, I love that idea. I wonder if in the age that we live in also, like there's, just like we were talking about earlier in our conversation, there are potential certain risks to aggressive happiness seeking or aggressive meaning seeking, that there's also potential risk to aggressive recording of what you're experiencing. I think we see it now with people, you know, you're at that concert and everybody's there having the time of their lives. And you're obsessed with getting just the right picture, just the right video, because you want to post it on whatever your platform is and share it and get, you know, credit for having been there. And, and rather than just being in the moment and enjoying it, you know, like part of your brain is sitting there saying, how do I capture this and share it in a way that is the best possible?

• 1:03:24Jonathan Fields?

  So I feel like there's, you know, there's the, the aggressive overexpression of that that we're seeing a lot of also, which just takes us out of the experience itself.

• 1:03:32Speaker 07

  I mean, the step one is you have to do the experience part. So it always, you know, drive me crazy when, when I go to, you know, Chicago Art Institute. Some people just go there, take picture, move on, take picture, move on, take picture. And I know they're not gonna look at it like, you know, afterward. Plus, if you really wanted to look at it, all these photos are already there. So you can find it, right? So I feel like you do have to experience first. You have to immerse yourself and that that is, you know, number one key. Just like a good memory in order for you to remember that encoding is extremely important. So you have to have the full encoding experiencing.

• 1:04:16Speaker 07

  If you're just like, oh, taking picture, then you're just already outsourcing. So you're not deeply processing this initially, you know, experience. So so number one, you have to pay attention, deeply absorb. And then you can move on to sort of how to, you know, store that experience.

• 1:04:34Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and as you're describing that, literally just a few weeks ago, I was at the local art museum. And I wandered into an exhibit of somebody I'd never heard of before. And I was just mesmerized by her work. And I, literally, I felt the impulse as I stood in front of each painting to reach down, take my phone in my pocket, take a picture. And I had to, I had to keep telling myself, no, no, no, like, if you want to go back afterwards and just capture a few, because, you know, to remember it, great. But just be here now, like for now, just move through it, take your time, breathe, sit, be affected by the aesthetic experience. And then if I want to go back and just capture a few on my, you know, phone camera afterwards,

• 1:05:18Jonathan Fields?

  then I will actually have the, the emotional imprint of that aesthetic experience that I can tie to the image when I look at it again. But if I'd never allowed myself to actually have that imprint, then the image, it just reminds me that I did the thing, but the thing becomes hollow.

• 1:05:34Speaker 07

  Right, right, exactly, exactly.

• 1:05:37Jonathan Fields?

  I'm just so deeply fascinated by this work and excited to continue to deepen into it. Um, in actually the appendix of, um, of your recent book, you developed a psychologically rich life questionnaire.

• 1:05:49Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 1:05:49Jonathan Fields?

  Tell me about where this comes from and how people might be able to actually tap it to bring more of this into their own lives.

• 1:05:57Speaker 07

  Yeah, one of the first thing we did was just try to define what we mean by the psychological rich life. And then we just generated as a lab members, like we had maybe ten or fifteen of us, just write a sentence that capture what we think is a psychological rich life. So we had like eighty-five items. And then, you know, just get rid of redundancy and so forth and ended up with seventeen items, which is in the appendix. We asked self-report, but asking, you know, what do you think when you die? Do you think you will say that you you had a interesting life? Do you have a lot of interesting stories to tell? And things like that.

• 1:06:40Speaker 07

  So definitely, people can take that questionnaire. I'm still haven't done this, but I will put it on my website so that people can just answer and then get the feedback, you know, where they are, whether they're leading really psychological rich life, average, or relatively psychologically poor, you know, life. So yeah, that's just really one way to quantify and one way for me and us to just study what what predicts really the psychological rich life. What are the core it? So what I talked about today have a lot to do with this, essentially, the data that we collected using these questionnaires.

• 1:07:21Speaker 07

  We also coded all kinds of obituaries so that we we know what kind of life each person led. So we do, you know, in a different ways to capture psychologically rich life, but questionnaire is one easy way to do it.

• 1:07:36Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I love it as as just a tool to get a baseline. It's not a judgment. It's just saying, okay, so here's some, here's an interesting insight, you know, like do with it, whatever feels right to you.

• 1:07:45Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:46Jonathan Fields?

  Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So I always wrap these conversations with the same question. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

• 1:07:57Speaker 07

  I think it's, you know, you have to ask yourself, what do you care? What kind of life is the ideal life for you? And I think it's, it's all about your honest answer to it. And I would say the fulfillment of whatever you care, whatever you value, is a good life. And for some, I think it's a happiness. For some, it's a meaning. And for others, it's, I think, the psychologically rich life, or adventurous life, or curious life. And I think for others, there might be something else. And I think it'll be interesting to figure out what's the fourth dimension, fifth dimensions, and sixth dimension.

• 1:08:38Speaker 07

  So I'm not, you know, constraining myself to be just three. But I think that three provides a little bit bigger, wider range of what is a good life than just two.

• 1:08:50Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm, thank you. Hey, if you loved this episode, say that you'll also love the conversation we had with Corey Keyes about escaping the epidemic of languishing. You can find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did, because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor. Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too.

• 1:09:35Jonathan Fields?

  But just one person even, then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

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