Overcoming Overthinking, Self-doubt and Anxiety With Dr. Julie Smith

Struggling with self-doubt, overthinking, or harsh self-criticism? Join us for an empowering conversation with Dr. Julie Smith, clinical psychologist and author of "Open When: A Companion for Life's Twists & Turns." https://amzn.to/41n6dfm Discover practical strategies to cultivate self-compassion, nurture a growth mindset, and transform failures into opportunities for learning - equipping you to embrace life's challenges with confidence and resilience. You can find Julie at: Website https://www.drjulie.uk/ | Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drjulie/ | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/dr-julie-smith-expert-tips-for-mental-health-emergencies If you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Cyndie Spiegel https://episodes.fm/647826736/episode/NjcwOTdhNWFmN2E2MTU2YTBiMGIyMzA3 about experiencing small moments of joy. Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the Wheel https://jonathanfields.substack.com/aboutVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Failure isn't something you become. It's an experience you move through.

• 0:04Jonathan Fields?

  Dr. Julie Smith is a clinical psychologist, bestselling author and mental health educator. With an audience of over 7 million people, she's become the go-to resource for common sense mental health. Her latest book, Open When, is a must-have companion to help navigate everything from self-doubt and overthinking to confidence and overwhelm.

• 0:23Speaker 00

  My innate drive is to protect my child.

• 0:27Jonathan Fields?

  Every parent wants their kid to be safe.

• 0:29Speaker 00

  It makes sense that I had thoughts like that at that time. I sat up with her in the night and just sort of looking at her in amazement and thinking.

• 0:38Jonathan Fields?

  We have this, the just abject fear of choosing wrong.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  How can we build confidence and have this kind of sense of confidence being a goal or a destination that you can arrive at? And I always kind of say to people.

• 1:03Speaker 02

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• 1:36Jonathan Fields?

  Good Life Project is sponsored by Steel. So I am not in the studio today. I'm actually out on the trail in the Rockies at about 6,000 feet above sea level and boulder. The leaves are exploding with color and it's just stunning out. And yes, I'm wearing my favorite Steel hat. And just last night, I was wearing one of my favorite Steel jackets, which, if you know me, is not unusual. I wear the hat almost every day and my Steel jackets pretty much live on me all fall and winter. There's even a Steel shop back in town, practically in my backyard. Here is why I love them. Steel is designed and tested in Jackson Hole. At the base of the Tetons by locals who ski and bike and hike and climb and fish there pretty much every day. They have been at it since 2011. So they know warmth and they also know

• 2:20Jonathan Fields?

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• 3:03Jonathan Fields?

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• 3:49Speaker 00

  I was always known as the, the quiet one, and I think that was probably a symptom of being fairly shy, introvert as well, which is, you know, different, but sort of a part of that. And I always had this sort of fascination with people and I never really sort of. I only get that now and I look back on, you know, I was a ferocious reader as a child. So I would just read lots of, you know, fiction and, and I never read any sort of fantasy or science fiction or anything like that. It was all, you know, about other kids in kind of family life. It was all kind of normal life stuff. And, and so I had that sort of fascination with people from a young age, I think, and

• 4:31Speaker 00

  how humans worked and how we were supposed to live and how relationships worked. And maybe that was related to that sort of shyness early on, I guess. And I would observe. So I would just what, you know, when you're shy and you're not in the center of things, you know, doing the heart and soul of the party, you watch and you learn and you absorb things. So, yeah, I think it was definitely a part of the development of that sort of fascination with, and, you know, not knowing at that point that psychology was even a word or a subject and sort of found myself in that world and equally fascinated by it, so.

• 5:09Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, it's interesting, right? I think, so I'll raise my hand as a fellow quieter person. And it really is such an interesting, it's almost like a trait of being on the quieter side, that you have so much more space to observe what's going on around you. That doesn't mean you always do. I feel like oftentimes like you end up in your head rather than externally focused. But if you start to look out into the world, it's like, you just start to see things that maybe others miss, that maybe give you a different, more nuanced understanding of how people meander in and out of relationships and interactions. Years ago, I actually had the opportunity to sit down with Richard Branson's mom, Eve. And we took a trip back in time and she was sharing a story about how, in her mind, it

• 5:53Jonathan Fields?

  wasn't okay to be that child, you know, like to be the shy kid. And like part of your job, if you were in a room, was to make other people feel comfortable. So she's telling a story about how like when Richard was, I don't know, five or six years old, she drove him out to the countryside, basically booted him out of the car and made him find his way home, knowing that he would have to ask, approach other people and ask them, you know, for directions. And this was like training for her. He never actually made it home that night, by the way.

• 6:18Speaker 00

  No, really?

• 6:19Jonathan Fields?

  A couple of hours later, they started freaking out and they started getting, they got back in the car, they're driving around, they finally found him like eating dinner, you know, like at a neighbor's table. He just like. Yeah, he found a place where he felt comfortable, got invited in and just was enjoying it. So, so kind of it didn't, the lesson didn't end entirely the way she thought it would.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  I think I probably do a slightly less risky version of that where whenever we're in like a local cafe or a shop or something like that, we'll get the children to go and pay for something. But we'll wait back and just let them kind of feel like they're doing that on their own. So you're close enough to pick up any problems, but they, you know, they get that real taste of having to make a conversation with an adult. And my daughter's done that from a really young age. And so, yeah, anytime that she sort of was fearless in that kind of way. And my husband would say, yeah, go on, let her do it. That's fine. And, and, and now she, you know, she can at 12 years old, hold a really good conversation with adults and is generally unfazed by it. It's brilliant.

• 7:19Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, that's amazing to see that. I'm, I'm curious what it's like for you though, because I feel like for a lot of parents, you know, our, we have this vicarious anxiety when we like, we want our kids to go out there and be brave and be vulnerable and do these things that we kind of know inside is really going to help them. But at the same time, you know, like they have their own potential hesitance or anxiety around it, but then we're anxious on their behalf. So like, we feel like we need to step in and fix it or not do that, or just do it for them, not because they're not necessarily ready for it, but maybe because we're not.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. And do you know what? I remember as you were talking that I was sort of had these little, had a flashback moments of, first of all, being pregnant and, and feeling like my child is never going to be more safe than they are now. You know, they're inside me, they're protected from the outside world and I can, you know, relatively keep control of this. And then this moment when my first child was born, kind of sat up with her in the night and just sort of looking at her in amazement and thinking, I don't want you to ever feel pain. I don't want you to ever feel alone or feel distressed or be in physical pain or emotional pain and just not wanting any of those negative things for her. And that's, I guess that's, you know, partly a biological thing and also a psychological

• 8:38Speaker 00

  thing, being the mother of the child, that it was, you know, my. My innate um drive is to protect my child when they're born. So it makes sense that I had thoughts like that at that time. But you also kind of recognize on the other side that actually all of those things are a part of learning. And you don't build strength or wisdom or uh knowledge or any of those things from just sitting in a room and talking about them or thinking about them. You have to live and you know, we we learn all those things through action and through trying things out and learning from when things go well and when things don't go well. And I think that's key in some ways.

• 9:21Speaker 00

  Some of the people that I've worked with in therapy before had never failed. They'd never had, you know, terrible things happen that they had to survive. And and their confidence in their ability to cope with what might be up ahead was was really low. And and there's something about, you know, obviously you wouldn't wish negative things on anyone. But when certain things, certain challenges come along, even though they, we might look back on them and say, you know, that's a, that was a really difficult time. Inevitably, they leave us with this sort of unspoken or unwritten new sense of

• 10:02Speaker 00

  knowledge that we can cope with tough times and we can get through certain stuff and survive it. It's a sort of inner strength, I guess.

• 10:09Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense to me, you know. I think every parent wants their kid to be safe, you know. But there's, I think what you're describing, it sounds like it's a fine line between wanting them to be safe and keeping their world small and also not allowing them to blossom into the human beings that they could be and move into the world with confidence and and all those different things. You know, when you're describing that, also, I feel like um there's this opportunity where as a parent, you can watch your kid take risks when the stakes are low. And if they do stumble, that you can be there to help them process. And yeah, I often wonder.

• 10:50Jonathan Fields?

  You know, rather than trying to protect them from everything, as long as they're like with you, as long as you have the ability to protect them from like, what if we just let them stumble as much as humanly possible when the stakes are low and we can help them so that by the time they go out into the world and we're not there as much, that they're just much better equipped to handle it.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so. And I think in that sense, the best protection for kids is teaching them how to protect themselves in the future. So for example, my, my daughter started playing football, so sort of English soccer to you guys, and she was new to it. And so there were other sort of girls in the squad that had more experience. And she wasn't getting picked for matches and things like that. And so she was coming to me feeling upset about that and feeling like she wasn't very good at it. And, and the natural urge as a mother is to make that go away. And I knew that a conversation with the coach might have

• 11:49Speaker 00

  changed some of that. But I didn't want to do that. So I had to sit with her in her disappointment and problem solve with her. Okay, how are we gonna, how are we gonna do that? And you know, how do you get picked for a team? Well, you go off and you do the work and you practice and you get better until you're so good, they can't ignore you. And, and that's what we did. We joined another, we, we kept going with that, but we joined another kind of training program thing on a different day. And she did that for a year and, and built up some really good skills. And then lo and behold, she was getting more game time and she was, you know, a sort of valued member of the squad. And, and so while that was, you know,

• 12:32Speaker 00

  painful for both of us in that she had to go through this period of feeling like she wasn't really good enough for it. Actually, now she has a template for, okay, when you get into that situation and you're not as, as good as you would like to be in a, you know, particular skill or, you know, ability of something, then you put the work in, you put the reps in, you, you think outside the box, you go out there, you find another way to build your skills up. And, and then you come back and you try again, rather than having somebody come and fix it for you or, you know, force people into. Making, you know, including you when you're perhaps not there yet.

• 13:07Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense. And really, it also speaks to this word that you hear kicked around in the world of work these days, which is entitlement. There's a bit of a divide often, sort of like between management, leadership and the rising class of employees. And I've heard this lament from both sides, you know, like I'm showing up, I'm like, I've been here for 18 months. I've been here for two years. Like, it's time for the raise. It's time for the promotion. Like, this is like, I do my time. I get the thing. And then from like leaders saying, it actually has nothing to do with, quote, time served. Like, this is all about like how you're showing up. Are you doing the work? Are you increasing your level of value and competence and contribution? And there's a disconnect there. And what you're like, what you're offering is a

• 13:52Jonathan Fields?

  way to sort of bridge that gap.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's interesting that we never get taught that in school, do we? We kind of get this impression that it is about time and a certain age, you'll be promoted to a certain level. And, and then, you know, certain age, you'll have the house and the car or the child or the, you know, that there's this sense of these things just happen. And there's a certain maturity that comes with the experience of realizing, oh, actually, these things aren't a given. I've got to put some work in. And maybe that's a natural part of maturing, but maybe it would be easier for everyone, you know, employers and employees. If people were kind of taught this sort of sense at school, this sort of dealing with people that you're working for and how to have those conversations and what you should be offering in return for

• 14:37Speaker 00

  a payment, or, you know, what the kind of a decent set of values are around an employment contract and what to kind of expect of yourself and to expect of other people as well.

• 14:48Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. One of my mantras, and just for life in general, is no promises made, you know, that applies to another minute, that applies to like some benefit that you would really love to have. I think if we walk through life that way and just assume, okay, so. This is all about the way that we show up. You know, it gives us both a sense of responsibility, but also agency. You know, because it tells us we can actually affect the outcome. It's not just a matter of waiting around or sitting it out or waiting it out.

• 15:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think agency is the key, isn't it? And, you know, when I was talking about my daughter, in some ways, that was probably the lesson for her was was the sense of agency, that when it's not going your way, you get back on the front foot and you do something. You take some sort of action that can influence the situation, but in a positive way, rather than sort of complaining or looking to someone else to fix it for you or that kind of thing. And all of those experiences from a young age, I think, create that sense of agency, right? I remember when I got to university the first time as an undergraduate. I felt really lucky to be that was the first person in my family to go to university. My mum's entire wages were going towards keeping me there.

• 16:01Speaker 00

  And, you know, I knew that I wanted to make them proud for that. You know, I was grateful for, yes, their sacrifices. And I'd also been in various different employment since I was 13. I think I took a, you know, a paper round and worked in a local cafe and shops in town and all these things. And I'd sort of had experience of having to go and earn some money if I wanted anything extra special. And when we got to university, there were other kids there who were much more privileged than myself and had sort of a family life where they hadn't had to necessarily work for things that they wanted. Which sounds great, sounds like a great upbringing and a great life.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  But when they got to university, those people really struggled, really struggled. And some of them dropped out because they couldn't manage their time and they couldn't be disciplined and get to lectures or they couldn't do the work or they couldn't budget. Because even though they had the biggest pile of money in the account than than others, they had never had to learn how to budget or, you know, never had, were never allowed to go to zero and experience that and going without. And so, you know, Well, when, you know, if me and these, you know, other kids had compared childhoods, you might think that mine had in some way been worse. But in fact, I felt like I was much more equipped for young adulthood than I perhaps would have been if I'd have had

• 17:29Speaker 00

  everything I wanted. So even those sort of difficult things where you want to give your kids everything and, you know, make them happy in the moment, it's not always, you know, there's a lot to be said for delayed gratification.

• 17:41Jonathan Fields?

  So true. Not easy to actually do in the moment, but deep down knowing like this, you know, the end is going to justify the means to a certain extent. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by Talkiiatry. So you know that moment when you finally say, okay, I need some help? That takes courage. And then you start calling psychiatrists and hear, we're not taking new patients, or our next opening is months away. Talkiiatry exists to change that. Unlike therapy only platforms, Talkiiatry is psychiatry. It's a 100% online practice where a medical provider can diagnose conditions like anxiety, ADHD, depression,

• 18:21Jonathan Fields?

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• 19:02Jonathan Fields?

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• 19:45Jonathan Fields?

  Download the Quince app for app exclusive authors or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about us, let them know it was Good Life Project. It's the best way to support the show. Good Life Project is supported by Kachava. So I used to think being salty was reserved for bad moods and pretzels. But lately I have come to realize that a little salty edge actually makes life, and especially dessert, way more interesting. Any pastry chef will tell you that a pinch of salt isn't there to ruin the party. It's there to make the sweet parts just really shine, which is exactly what Kachava pulled off with their new salted caramel. First sip, I actually laughed.

• 20:29Jonathan Fields?

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• 21:04Jonathan Fields?

  I've been touching in different ways, actually, on some of the topics from your new book, Open Mind. I love the structure of this, by the way, rather than this being a book where you kind of read it end to end. It's like, now let me actually share a whole bunch of topics that are so common to so many of us, which has experienced them in so many different parts of life. So you can kind of flip open. I mean, literally the title of the book is like, basically open this when this happens, you're in this situation. I'd love to drop into some of those with you. And I think. Just riffing off of what we were talking about, that moment where kids show up, or when we show up in a situation where we feel like in the moment, we're being tasked with doing something, or showing up in a certain way, or performing, and we just don't feel confident at all. This is one of the things you write about. Like, there's

• 21:46Jonathan Fields?

  a sense of self doubt that so many of us have. Take me into this experience a bit, like, how it often shows up and why.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I think confidence is often, you know, people often ask me, you know, how can we build confidence and have this kind of sense of confidence being a goal or a destination that you can arrive at? And I always kind of say to people, it's not something you should aim for. It's always a byproduct of a life spent being willing to be the beginner at something, being willing to be vulnerable, being willing to repeat that, you know, go into that space and stay there for as long as possible with the mindset of, I'm willing to not be perfect at this because I know I'm learning. And often, confidence can be situation specific a lot of the time. I think there is some, there is certain confidence

• 22:36Speaker 00

  in oneself that is kind of universal to a degree, and that will, you will carry with you in certain situations. But a lot of it is situation specific, right? So, you know, if I went with you to your workplace that you go to every day, and/or the things you do every day, I would probably feel out of my depth and not confident. And yet, if I brought you to, you know, a mental health hospital or my clinic, then I would feel confident and maybe you wouldn't. And that's purely about the experience, the time spent there, the training to deal with the different situations. And all of those things are stuff you can learn and stuff you can build on over time. And I think the recognition that

• 23:17Speaker 00

  wherever you want to go, whatever you want to master and become more confident at. There is a path to that. It goes back to the agency thing, doesn't it? That there is a way to it, that you, you know, it's the fixed mindset, growth mindset stuff. If, if you think that how you are now and your strengths and weaknesses are fixed for life, then, then you're probably not going to do the work necessary to build your confidence. But if, if you're willing to go there and you're willing to begin to kind of learn and practise and get it wrong and scoop yourself up when you do fail, then over time, when you suddenly sort of, you've put some work in and you look up a bit and you think, oh, I'm so much more confident than I was.

• 24:00Speaker 00

  There are still areas I want to work on, but it feels fundamentally different to day one on day 200.

• 24:06Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm. No, that makes a lot of sense. And part of what you're describing here is this notion of we can't think our way into confidence. We kind of have to do our way into it.

• 24:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. So our brains learn through evidence of action and experience. And, you know, I could sit in the therapy room with someone for hours on end, getting them to try and convince themselves that they are indeed confident. And it really just wouldn't do anything, you know, it's not going to move the dial really. And what does move the dial is the stuff that happens between the therapy sessions. So, you know, someone will, if, I don't know, let's say someone has kind of social anxiety and they really want to become more confident in social situations. We create a hierarchy. So we list out all the different situations that cause anxiety in order or sort of graded in terms of how anxious does that situation make you. So, you know, at the very bottom, it might be

• 24:56Speaker 00

  starting conversation with the person in the local store down the road when I buy my, you know, food. And, you know, right at the top might be speaking to someone I don't know at a busy wedding, you know, in a crowded room, all of those kinds. So there's lots of different situations in between there. And each one might have, you know, a more intense anxious reaction to it. And what you would do in therapy is you don't start with the worst one, the, the thing that's really difficult. You start at the bottom and you start with a thing that feels like a challenge but feels doable. And, and then when you do it, you go back to therapy and then you reflect on it and talk about it and talk about the experience. So they're sort of embedding the, the small victories that you're having

• 25:38Speaker 00

  and benefiting from when it doesn't go well, because you're turning that into a constructive learning experience. So you'll reflect on when it doesn't go well. And what you could change to do next time. And so, you know, the sort of changes in your brain chemistry are happening when you're having this experience. And the work you do in therapy in between is to sort of embedding that and allowing you to be able to recall it and think it through in a coherent way. And so, yeah, we have to have the action in there. Otherwise, yeah, when it's sort of, I don't know, trying to travel on a boat with no oars, you're just, you're gonna be floating around for ages.

• 26:15Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I'm curious where you land on this in this context also. So years ago, I remember being exposed to the work of a guy named Eric Ries in the world of entrepreneurship. He wrote a book called Lean Startup, which was this sort of like became the bible for startups in that world for a long time. There's one line that stayed with me and there was a lot that stayed with me actually, but this is one line, like really, like it feels relevant to this conversation. You know, he said, the thing that we're trying to do here is we change the metric that we're striving for from success to learning. And when you do that, like when you're talking about these iterations, like try the little thing and then the next thing and the next thing. If we enter that and say, okay, my goal here is not necessarily to succeed, but just to do the thing

• 26:57Jonathan Fields?

  and learn something, no matter what it is, whether like, whether like I'm embraced or whether I'm rebuffed. If my primary metric is just to learn something, it kind of takes the pressure off. How does that land with you?

• 27:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And absolutely. In terms of when I talk to people about the difficult part of building confidence in terms of being in that situation where you feel vulnerable. Certainly for me, the only way that, you know, I, as the kind of the shy introvert girl now doing things like live TV and big speaking events. The only way I'm willing to do that or able to do that is that I'm willing to look at failures as and when they occur as a learning experience and as a necessary part of that learning experience. And in the face of those failures, I'm not going to kick myself one on down. So anytime I make a mistake or if the worst happens, you know, if I

• 27:50Speaker 00

  fall over on the stage and on live TV, I'm not going to use that as ammunition against myself. I'm going to.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  I'm going to look after myself through it and I'm going to speak to myself as if I was, you know, a coach who wanted the absolute best for me and to see me continue to achieve. So there are certain things you need to do to, to help you get yourself back up rather than, and you know, seeing those missteps as a learning experience is key because I think then you see it as outside of yourself. You see it as an experience you've had. So I see, you know, failure isn't something you become. It's an experience you move through. And, but when you attach it to yourself, where you think that says something fundamental about who you are as a person, that's dangerous ground, that's going to be much harder to recover from, much

• 28:42Speaker 00

  harder to learn from even, because that will leave you in shame. And when you're feeling shame, you can't learn and move on. So yeah, you know, keeping a really sort of constructive relationship with failure is key.

• 28:55Jonathan Fields?

  So you just brought up the S word, shame, which I think is part of so, so much of why we shut down in so many different circumstances. We feel the sense, but you just made a really interesting statement also, which is when we're in shame, we can't learn. Take me into that a bit more. I'm fascinated by that.

• 29:13Speaker 00

  It's just so psychologically threatening when something that's happened, and I think that's the key, is when you think that whatever's happened says something about your worth as a human being and, and your lovability or likability or worthiness in, in whatever way. When you're setting your estimation of yourself based on an outcome that you couldn't really control fully, then you're on really shaky ground because you're, the shame that you experience when you don't feel enough for, you know, the people in your life is so threatening that you're then in fight or flight mode. So you can't, when you're in fight or flight

• 29:56Speaker 00

  mode, you haven't got time to think things through rationally. You just focus on feeling safe again. So inevitably then when we feel shame, we just start doing the things that, that push that feeling away and help us to feel safe again. And inevitably those, those behaviors aren't the things that are helpful to us. You know, you kind of, you don't necessarily even notice what the feeling is or label it. You just notice you're doing the thing that... Helps to numb it, you know, you, I don't know, you have a bad at work and then you notice you haven't gone home, you're, you're in a bar drinking or, you know, something else that is potentially destructive. So, but, you know, I think all of that can be helped by that clear separation between the mistake or the problem and me and my fundamental worth as a

• 30:41Speaker 00

  person.

• 30:42Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, no, that line is so true. And also, I mean, it ties in really powerful. And this is another thing that it's one of the chapters that you write about is this notion of like a fear of making a wrong choice. You know, like, we're in this moment where we have to say yes or no, we have to allocate resources, we have to, and it's funny because so many of us, I think, have this fear for the smallest things, you know, like, when am I going to order for dinner? But then the big things come where the stakes rise. And, you know, we have this, the just abject fear of choosing wrong. Take me into this a bit.

• 31:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think it can really, I think it can really ramp up when we're already struggling. So if we're already under stress and we're sort of reaching our capacity, then you kind of notice that seemingly small decisions that are normally not a problem, start to feel like a problem. Like the things like choosing dinner, or, you know, deciding whether to go to that social event or not. And when you can find yourself kind of ruminating over it. And sometimes that rumination can be a symptom of the fact that you're already highly stressed or low in mood or both. And maybe you've got lots going on, which makes then decision making a real struggle. But I think sometimes when it's a sort of a bigger

• 32:00Speaker 00

  decision, there can be that kind of sliding doors feeling of, you know, what if I make the wrong decision and I regret it? And, and I think inherent in the idea is the sort of fallacy, really, that there is a right decision that will involve no cost and it would just be payoffs. And it's just not true. You know, if you, I don't know, so whether it's a decision to have children or not have children, this sense that one of those will be perfect decision that will mean you'll have the easiest and best and most fulfilling life. This isn't true. They're different paths. Both of them might be brilliant

• 32:41Speaker 00

  in their own ways. And both of them will inevitably have a degree of cost to you and sacrifice and.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  So it's not so much trying to weave through life, dodging anything that you might regret. It's working out which regrets you'll be able to live with and which regrets you'll be able to, or which costs that you'll be able to carry, knowing that it's still the right decision. So I don't know, when I had children, for example, so before I had children, I was totally focused on my career in the NHS over here, in the National Health Service, and all the different things I wanted to do. And then when I had my daughter, it completely changed and shifted.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  And it didn't feel, and it still doesn't feel like a cost to me, that I made sacrifices in my career progression. You know, I didn't go for the consultant job because I needed to be present for my daughter, and that's exactly what I wanted, because my values had shifted. And so even though it was potentially a sacrifice, or would have been considered a sacrifice to my younger self, it now doesn't feel that way, because I'm clear on why I made that decision. And I'm more than willing to pay that cost.

• 34:04Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, it's interesting, because you bring in, you know, when you became a parent. Like, I think one of the things that we tend to struggle with is when, and maybe I'm just speaking for myself, but I would imagine it's more general than that, is when you're at a moment where you need to make a decision. The stakes are meaningful, but it's not really your stakes. Maybe you're making a decision for, you know, a young child who's not quite at a point where they can really make it themselves. Or maybe you have elderly or aging parents, and you're making decisions on their behalf. And you know that the decisions are going to, maybe in really meaningful ways, affect either that young child's future or, you know, your aging parent's day-to-day life.

• 34:49Jonathan Fields?

  And I wonder if sometimes like that becomes this added factor when we know that we have to make an important decision. And the decision is it's not just going to affect us, it's going to affect people who we care deeply about in ways that could be extremely good, but also extremely challenging. Do you see that come up?

• 35:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. And do you know what? Even in my own life, when all this happened, you know, I originally left the NHS so that I could manage my work around the family. And I started this really small private practice from home that I could do in kind of school hours, that I could be present as a mom and still kind of keep the my skills going and that kind of thing. And, and then when all of the videos I was putting on social media kind of took off and the book deal and then busy, you know, it was all kind of going wild. And I was really acutely aware at that time that I didn't want it to affect the children. I'd made these decisions for our life so that I could be there and be present as a mom.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  And I was so, I was so focused on it not affecting the kids, but I could also see the benefits to us as a family of doing this and the sort of options that could create for us as a family. And so I was trying to do that and it not affect the kids. So I was essentially kind of not really sleeping that much. I was putting the children to bed, working until, you know, late into the night. And then I was getting up early to try and make videos and things or write before they got out because we were in lockdown as well. So they were at home. And the person who paid the price for that was me in terms of, you know, lack of sleep doesn't, you know, you can't do that for too long before it has consequences.

• 36:31Speaker 00

  And, and so I think all of these things are a constant kind of balancing act, aren't they? Of, you know, it wasn't ideal to say no to all these wonderful opportunities that have been brilliant for our family, but it also didn't feel right to say yes to all of them and not see my children. But it also wasn't sustainable to sacrifice my own wellbeing in order to make sure everybody else was happy and all the opportunity, you know, everyone offering opportunities was okay and my children were okay and I wasn't. That didn't feel like a good equation either. And so there's always this kind of. This toing and froing of this, you know, people imagine that balance is this

• 37:15Speaker 00

  perfect sweet spot where everyone's got enough of you and you've got enough of you and it's just brilliant and don't shift from that. I think it's more of a constant movement, a constant awareness of when you're shifting too far in one direction, you readjust and you know, balance the other way and then you balance back and you come back and forth. And something that I talk about in both the books actually, is how important those simple values exercises are to me. There's something from therapy that I personally do, I don't know, like every few months maybe, or if I'm just feeling a bit out of sorts, or kind of, you know, overstretched, or like I'm not kind of living in the way that I want to. I'll sit down and you just, you know, pen and paper, you

• 38:00Speaker 00

  just kind of jot out the different areas of your life. So I might put, you know, parenting, marriage, friends and social, family, health, kind of learning, creativity, career, all of those things. And in each box, I just put a few words about what matters most to me in that part of my life. So not what I want to happen to me, but the kind of person I want to be and how I want to show up there. In good times, I'm bad. And then I kind of rate them. So I'll give it a rating out of 10 in terms of, you know, it's fairly kind of crude rating, how important it is to me. So zero, not at all, 10 is the most important thing. And then I'll do another rating, but this time is how much in the last couple

• 38:40Speaker 00

  of weeks, I feel I'm living in line with those values. And all it does is it just kind of shines a light on the areas that I've shifted away from in that balance. And so if you've got a rating for an area of your life, let's say health, and it's 10 out of 10 important to you, but you notice you've put a two out of 10 in terms of living in line with your values around that, then that's just an indication of, hey, come over here. You know, we're a bit neglected over here. And so, and it's okay to, you can't have top scores on all of them all the time. And that's okay. You know, it's not a source of self criticism. It's just an indication of when you nudge the balance and because inevitably

• 39:23Speaker 00

  life does pull you away, right? Sometimes there are big things going on like with the, you know, the coming out of the book, for example, recently, I've been doing lots of, you know, going up to London or doing podcasts and think like we're recording this now. And so I had to drop the children over to my husband's office and they're going to go off and he's going to take them to one of their classes and I would normally be doing that, but that's okay, because tomorrow I'll pick them up from school and we'll, you know, do stuff. So it's that constant just adjustment, that rebalance of, yeah, I'm still looking after the things that matter most to me and I'm fully aware of what those things are, but sometimes work will get a lot of me and sometimes the children will, and sometimes other things will.

• 40:05Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I love the way that you bring the values into the exploration and also the way that you bring a sense of self forgiveness into the conversation as well and say like, you know what, I gotta actually acknowledge and forgive my humanity. In fact, that I'm not living in this sort of like isolated, perfect world with perfect conditions. I'm living a real life in the real world and things are going to happen. I'm going to fall apart. The world is going to change. Things will come up. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Fall, that cozy season where we swap the swimwear for sweaters and sunnies for scars. But before the Halloween decorations are put away or Thanksgiving table has been set, there's already holly jolly music playing

• 40:50Jonathan Fields?

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• 41:25Jonathan Fields?

  Good Life Project is sponsored by Vinted. So here's a question that I have been sitting with. How many things in your closet were bought for, let's say, a version of you who never quite showed up? Maybe it's the tailored jacket for the dinners you were gonna go to, or Sunday pieces with the tag still on them. They're lovely clothes. They're just not yours anymore. That's where Vinted comes in. So Vinted is a secondhand marketplace app where everyday people sell the clothes that they're not wearing to people who actually will. Listing on Vinted is quick and simple. You take a few photos, write a short description, and you're done. Once something sells, Vinted creates the prepaid shipping label for you. There are also no seller fees on Vinted, so whatever your piece sells for, you keep.

• 42:07Jonathan Fields?

  What I love about that is how it turns letting go into something that actually feels good. You get more room, a little extra money, and maybe a closet that reflects who you are right now. So see what's hiding in your closet. You might be surprised how much you can earn with Vinted. Download the Vinted app for free and start listing with no seller fees, so you keep everything you earn. Good Life Project is sponsored by Bombas. So my wife Stephanie has been one of the great gift givers in our family. And her secret is that the best gifts often aren't the flashy ones. They're the ones that people reach for on any given day without even thinking about it. That's why so much of my list ends up at Bombas. Fuzzy Sunday slippers for the friend who lives in sweatpants from November to March. Merino wool and cashmere blend socks for anyone who runs cold.

• 42:52Jonathan Fields?

  That would be me, by the way. Ski and running socks for the ones who refuse to slow down. Also me, by the way. And water-resistant suede booties, so cushy. My executive producer Lindsay actually more or less lives in hers. And here's what else makes it a good life kind of gift. For every item you purchase, Bombas donates an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased, one donated. Over 200 million donations and counting, so every gift you give is really two. So head over to bombas.com/goodlife and use the code GOODLIFE for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash good life. Code GOODLIFE at checkout.

• 43:34Jonathan Fields?

  This is one of the other topics you write about, this notion of self-criticism. And we can get so in our heads, like I've had, you know, just kind of beating ourselves up and saying, you know, like I made this decision or I wanted this thing to happen in a particular way. I was a part of the way that unfolded and it unfolded in a way that I absolutely didn't want and hoped wouldn't happen. And then, you know, rather than saying, okay, so it is what it is, like, how do I actually, what can I learn from it? And then how can I move forward? And this is a way to improve or fix this. So often, you know, we get just stuck in our head in this spin cycle of self-criticism, which can be so defeating, yet it's such a, I mean, I would imagine this is something that you've seen in clinical practice over and over.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's something that people want to hold on to as well. You know, people, a lot of people believe that it's the source of their drive and their success, because, you know, when things aren't going so well, they are hard on themselves and that's what, you know, gives them the kind of kick to try again or work harder and that kind of thing. And that's all fair and well, but it also kind of assumes that you can only achieve from a place of threat, you know, from that kind of threat mindset of not going to be good enough. And, you know, I, again, it's the shame stuff that you're coming from, but you can have

• 44:58Speaker 00

  a sense of drive from a place of worthiness, but also wanting to, you know, discover your potential and discover your limits and do positive things for the world as much as you can. And that's a much more pleasant place to come from in terms of drive and without the sacrifice of poor mental health. And because inevitably, you know, I remember one of the things we used to kind of talk about in therapy was this idea of someone who is relentlessly self-critical is almost the equivalent to, okay, you know, imagine if I was going to lock you in a room for a year and you weren't going to come out of that room for the entire year.

• 45:40Speaker 00

  And I'm going to put in that room with you the worst bully that you can remember from school. And, and they're just going to be that bully to you for the whole year, 20, you know, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. When you then come out of that room after one year. You know, you're gonna feel pretty terrible. You're not gonna come out with confidence. You're not gonna come out feeling happy and jolly. And you're not gonna come out with brilliant mental health. You're gonna suffer all the consequences of around the clock bullying. Whereas if you were in that room with your best friend or your favorite sports coach, you would come out with fundamentally different mental health and feeling differently about yourself

• 46:23Speaker 00

  and feeling raring to go with all the things you've been dreaming about doing, without the self doubt and the self criticism that comes with it. And I say that if for someone who's relentlessly self critical, it's the equivalent to living in that room with the bully 24/7. Because it's in your head every minute that you're awake. And that's not without consequence. So if the way that you speak to yourself in your head sounds more like the bully than it does the best friend, it will be costing you and it will be affecting your mental health in a negative light. And so there is this idea of, well,

• 46:59Speaker 00

  I think people have the misconception that if you're gonna be nice to yourself, that's somehow kind of self indulgent. And that self compassion is the same as indulgence, which again is not true. So, you know, compassion is actually often doing the really tough thing or taking the more difficult decision that has your best interests at heart. So it can be really difficult. So let's say my son wakes up and feels a bit tired, a bit groggy when he wakes up. And he says, I don't wanna go to school today. Indulgence might be me saying, okay, let's not bother. You know, we'll go in when you feel like it. That would be indulgence. Whereas compassion would be, okay, I get that you're tired. Getting to school on a regular basis is really important for your education. Here's why.

• 47:44Speaker 00

  But we, you know, we get up, we have some breakfast, we have a drink and we, you know, see if you're feeling better and then we try anyway. Even though you don't feel like it, let's recognize that it's important. So, you know, compassion is there for, you know, having his best interests at heart and encouraging him to do the thing that he doesn't necessarily feel like doing, because it's gonna help him in the long run and be better for his future. So it's fundamentally different. And so, you know, you can, you know, I don't know, have drive at work or you can get yourself to the gym or you can do these things that are difficult. From a place of compassion and caring for yourself, you know, treating yourself like you're someone that you're you have a duty to look after.

• 48:29Speaker 00

  Or if you're, you know, taking on that role of a coach of an elite athlete, you know, you want them to achieve their capacity and their their potential. And so in order to do that, you can't pull them down. You've got to lift them up, but you've also got to push them forward and not pull them back.

• 48:48Jonathan Fields?

  I feel like so many of us are better at offering compassion to other people than we are to ourselves, you know, when you think about, okay, so how do I actually be more compassionate in those moments to myself? Is there a question or a prompt or something that you would invite us to explore?

• 49:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, do you know what? You hit the nail on the head there where people that don't have much self compassion, it's not that they are unable to feel compassion. It's that most of it goes outwards towards other people that they care about. And it's so I always say that's really good news because it's kind of just a process of redirecting some of that so that we get to share it around because we're not asking someone to, you know, put themselves above everybody else in their life, just to bring them up to that same level of priority. So they're kind of treating themselves with the same care and respect they treat everybody else. So a really great exercise that a lot of people have found really helpful is this process of thinking of someone that you love or care for unconditionally.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  And that was often a child in the person's life, whether it's their own or, you know, a niece or nephew or something like that. And you spend time kind of with that image in your mind and feeling what you feel towards them. And when you do that, you're engaging with that feeling of compassion. And often you kind of then imagine that, okay, let's say that person, that child or adult that you feel such compassion towards is in the situation that you're in now and dealing with that problem. What would you want them to have the strength to do? What would you want them to say to themselves? And what would you want them to do to work their way through it?

• 50:33Speaker 00

  And often that then just gives you this kind of idea of what would self compassion really look like? Because inevitably you want that person to do what is best for them and what has their best interests at heart. And so it kind of creates this idea of, ah, okay, yeah, I'd want them to, I don't know, stand up for themselves or, or find a way to, you know, haul themselves out of bed and get to that exam, even though they're feeling nervous or, and not, not be too hard on themselves when it went wrong, or, you know, all of those things that, we seem to be able to find that for other people so easily. And yet in the moment for ourselves, it's really difficult. So there's lots of different exercises like that where you, you engage with the compassion, you kind of push it where it moves.

• 51:16Speaker 00

  So you find that compassion that you can feel and then you redirect it.

• 51:21Jonathan Fields?

  No, I love that. It's funny as you're describing that. What came to me also is what's often classically known as the meta meditation or loving kindness meditation. Which is, you know, it's repeating generally like a handful of simple phrases, you know, things like, may, may you be safe, may you be healthy, may you be happy, may you live with ease. But classically, and you cycle through different people in that meditation, it takes only a few minutes. And the first person that you're often taught to start with is yourself. You start by saying, may I be safe, may I be healthy, may I be happy, may I live with ease? And then you go to a person who you really care about unconditionally. And then you go to a person who is a stranger, then you go to a person that you struggle with, and then you go to all beings.

• 52:04Jonathan Fields?

  But it's interesting that what you're offering is sort of like this interesting reframe and saying, that first refrain for a lot of people may not be super accessible. You know, like, may I, so what if you actually started with that person? That's the next ring out where it's like, no, I can find it for this person and then work back into it. It's like this interesting shift in that.

• 52:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think you have to start where it's easiest to access it. And then it's a shifting rather than a trying to generate something that you're not used to feeling. So that can be really helpful.

• 52:37Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I love that. I feel like this also leads into another topic that you dive into, which is the notion of overthinking. You described self-criticism as something that sometimes people like to hold on to because they feel there's value in it. Overthinking is this interesting, very wide-ranging phenomenon. So many people I know really get stuck in this. Weirdly, I'm somebody who doesn't spend a lot of time in overthinking, and I'm probably the outlier among most people that I know and that I've learned. And I've had conversations with friends and with colleagues, and some of them have told me, they said, I know it's hurting me. I know it's a really uncomfortable experience just emotionally for me, but I believe there's value in it. I don't want to let it go because if I keep

• 53:22Jonathan Fields?

  spinning this thought in my head, it's gonna, at some point, it's gonna get me to a solution or to the big idea or to the thing, so I'll just suffer with it. Do you see that as a common phenomenon also with overthinking?

• 53:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that that is the sort of, I want to know what the word is, whether it's a sort of almost a mirage, isn't it, of, or the illusion of worry and overthinking, is that it, and why it's so addictive in some ways, is that it gives us the impression that we're solving the problem. And often, what we're doing, rather than solve it, is to, you know, because worry, by definition, is sort of unconstructive. And so what we tend to be doing really is, rather than problem-solving it in a constructive way, we're actually just playing out that worst-case scenario, or a variety of worst-case scenario thoughts, over and over again. What if this happens? Or what if that happens? And so

• 54:17Speaker 00

  often, what we can do in a kind of therapeutic situation is allow for this. I'm not kind of trying to squash it or pretend those thoughts aren't there. We say, okay, well, what if then? So if that worst-case scenario, what do we do either to prevent that, or what do we do when we, if we get there and that happens, and try to? Create that sense of agency so you can turn those particular situations into action. So you're doing something about it and you're getting off that sort of back foot feeling of rabbit in headlights, things are happening or can be happening to me and I've got no control over it to, okay, well, what are we going to do then? But let's put something in place and either try to prevent it or prepare for when it's going to happen so that we deal with it in a way that makes us proud. And I think sometimes that's what

• 55:02Speaker 00

  worry in itself or overthinking neglects is the agency and the action that comes with it. Because it's all fair and well to think about worst case scenarios and it's actually, you know, a real benefit. It's not something that's wrong with our brain. It's really helped, it's kept us alive all this time. But it kept us alive when we were able to turn that into action to keep ourselves safe. And if it's worrying about something that that we don't need to worry about, so there's nothing we can do to keep ourselves safe, or, you know, if I'm sat here worrying about one day, I might get some illness that I don't know what causes it or how to prevent it, or, and I could sit here for the next 10 years and

• 55:43Speaker 00

  worry about it with the possibility that it might happen, then there's not really many ways to be constructive about that unless there's some sort of health behavior you could do, right? And that's the stuff to be, to learn to let go with mindfulness and thought diffusion, that kind of thing. But if it's something that, you know, if it's, you know, I've got a speaking event next week and I feel super anxious about it and I'm imagining worst case scenarios, then there's something I can do about that. Often that worry will be because I'm unprepared and I need to put some things in place to prevent those worst case scenarios from happening. And, you know, that's really easy to kind of access that sense of agency over.

• 56:21Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, no, that makes so much sense. You know, I feel like so many of the things that we've been talking about, it's like action is the answer, not just random action, like some sort of like intentional, like thoughtful action, because action can also probably deepen the harm or deepen the painful emotion. And yet, like if we just stay in our head, then it's like there's no resolution.

• 56:44Jonathan Fields?

  It feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

• 56:53Speaker 00

  I guess the first thought comes to mind is the value stuff that I was thinking about before. To me, a good life is really simple, being the best that I can be for my family and the people that I know and care about and the wider community and trying to be a force for good within that. And I guess even in the stuff, you know, even in the work that I do, I'm reaching beyond my own community to, you know, strangers on the internet. I can't change the whole world, but I can make my small corner of the internet a positive one.

• 57:34Speaker 00

  So it's always just trying to make sure that everything I put out there is with positive intent to do some good. And inherent in that is looking after myself to ensure that I can do that for as long as possible.

• 57:51Jonathan Fields?

  Thank you.

• 57:54Jonathan Fields?

  And before you leave, if you loved this episode, say, but you'll also love the conversation we had with Cindy Spiegel about experiencing small moments of joy. You'll find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelley Del Bliss for her research on this episode. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube, too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did, because you're still listening here, do me a personal favor, a second, second favor, share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome, too, but just one person

• 58:39Jonathan Fields?

  even, then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

• 58:59Jonathan Fields?

  Today's episode is sponsored by NerdWallet Wealth Partners. Are you on track for financial independence? If you're on track, the same way you're getting back to the gym, as in, maybe next year, then this one's for you. NerdWallet Wealth Partners offers free tools for high earners who'd like an actual answer instead of a vibe, like their calculator that estimates if you're on track for financial independence. Plug in a few numbers to see how your savings path may support your goals. Think of it as a fitness test that you can take sitting down, or their wealth building checklist for high earners. It's a step-by-step guide for prioritizing your dollars once you're making six figures. And if you still have questions, you can connect with one of their financial advisors who specializes in working with high earners in their 30s and 40s. Good news, this is one workout you can actually finish.

• 59:43Jonathan Fields?

  Find out more at nerdwalletwealthpartners.com/good. NerdWallet Wealth Partners LLC is an SEC-registered investment advisor. Registration as an investment advisor does not imply a certain level of skill or training, nor does it constitute an endorsement by any securities regulator. Please see nerdwalletwealthpartners.com for disclosures and important information.

• 1:00:04Speaker 03

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• 1:01:07Speaker 05

  Granger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Costs climb. Too little? Production slows. Granger's $2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need when you need it. So you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click Granger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.