Pod Insights Good Inside with Dr. Becky Is It True? If I Don’t Punish, I’m Permissive (with Myleik Teele) About this episode Your kid is melting down in public… and you feel it:
“If I don’t shut this down, I'm a pushover. My kid will walk all over me."
In this first episode of our new Is It True? series, Dr. Becky and Myleik Teele take a closer look at a belief so many parents carry, though rarely question:
If I don’t punish, I'm being permissive.
Together, they unpack what’s underneath that fear, why punishment can feel so satisfying (and why it often doesn’t work), and what it actually looks like to hold boundaries without being harsh or permissive.
They also explore how this question lands differently for Black parents, where the stakes of “not listening” can feel much higher.
This is the first in a recurring format we’ll revisit, slowing down common parenting beliefs and expanding them into something sturdier, more usable, and more true.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Dr. Becky Kennedy? After my first baby was born, I treated my own recovery like a complete afterthought. If the baby needed something, I showed up immediately. If I needed something, well, it would wait. But research shows that when parents have the support they need, they're better able to care for their children. Taking care of yourself isn't separate from parenting. It's a huge part of parenting. That's why I love Frida's mission to prepare women for the realities of pregnancy, postpartum, recovery, and feeding. Frida creates solutions for the moments that often catch moms off guard. The Postpartum Essentials Kit and Breastfeeding Survival Kit help women feel more prepared for those early weeks of motherhood. Be motherhood prepared and shop Frida at Amazon, Target, and Walmart today.
0:48 Dr. Becky Kennedy? You know that feeling when your brain is at full capacity, right? I mean, you have a reminder from the dentist in your email, a birthday party invitation on the fridge, and your kid just texted you about a soccer game they forgot to mention until that moment, and you just cannot remember one more thing?
1:04 Dr. Becky Kennedy? That's where Skylight Calendar comes in. It's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs with Google, Apple, and Outlook to help your whole family see the days and weeks ahead. And I really love the Tasks feature, which is designed to help your kid build routines around things like homework and chores. And when your kid can do those things independently, it's a huge win for everyone in the family. Skylight Calendar is so much more than just a calendar. It's something you can add to your routine to help your family work together. And right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to
1:40 Dr. Becky Kennedy? myskylight.com/becky. That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T.com/Becky for $30 off your 15-inch calendar. Myskylight.com/becky. Okay, your kid is screaming in the middle of the grocery store. Nope, your kid is rolling around in the middle of a restaurant. Actually, no, sorry. Your kid is jumping in mud in their dress clothes after you said, "Please don't jump in the mud in your dress clothes." Whatever it is, no matter where you are, there is always one person who walks by a situation like this and gives you the look.
2:21 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And you know the look because the look has a voice, even if you don't hear anything and the voice says, you're gonna let them get away with that. And the voice then says to you, if I don't handle this firmly and harshly, I'm gonna look permissive. I'm gonna look like I let my kid walk all over me. I'm gonna look like I am reinforcing bad behavior. I'm permissive, I'm a pushover.
2:50 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Now, I'm just gonna put it on the table. I've had that thought myself many times. So if this sounds familiar to you, I don't have a camera into your brain. I just can hear my own brain. But here's the thing. Is punishment actually the opposite of permissiveness?
3:10 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Today, we're gonna try something new. My friend, one of my favorite people to talk with about anything, Myleik Teal, is back with me and we're going to start myth busting some of the stickiest parenting beliefs out there. And this one thought that if I don't punish, I'm permissive, is something that I think a lot of us just hold as truth. It's kind of nonfiction. Maybe it's not true. Or maybe that thought needs a little updating. That's what we're gonna talk about today. I'm Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside. I'm so glad you're here.
3:48 Dr. Becky Kennedy? This is a series we're calling, Is It True? In each of these types of episodes, we're going to take one parenting idea that sounds obvious. You just kind of moved past it. Something we've said or believed or just held as the truth. And we're just gonna get curious about it. We're gonna also ask, is this idea helpful in the way we want to show up? So, Myleik, when you hear, if you don't punish, you're permissive, what does that stir up in you?
4:20 Speaker 01 It, I feel like so many people, if you see a kid, whatever the action is, a good parent does something. A good parent has an equal or greater
4:37 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Ooh.
4:37 Speaker 01 reaction.
4:39 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Every action has an equal opposite reaction. Yes.
4:42 Speaker 01 So it's like, if you do this, oh, you broke that, you hit that, let me take it up a notch.
4:49 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And, and there's a publicness of this, but I think this thought plays out in private.
4:53 Speaker 01 Oh, it does.
4:54 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I really think it's one of the oldest, deepest beliefs. And maybe it's so old because it's literally old from generations.
5:00 Speaker 01 Right.
5:02 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I, I can't let them get away with it, which I think is related. Letting someone get away with something means I'm not punishing it.
5:09 Speaker 01 Right.
5:10 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Is that, it feels like those are almost the same.
5:12 Speaker 01 Right.
5:14 Speaker 01 How will they get better if you don't punish it? Then they think.
5:16 Speaker 01 How will they learn?
5:18 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Then they think, I think it's okay.
5:22 Speaker 01 It's okay.
5:22 Dr. Becky Kennedy? So, okay, so your kid does something in front of you, right? Either you say, oh, stop jumping on the couch and they keep jumping on the couch. Or they just say something really rude to you, or they don't listen, right? And if you don't punish, is it that you feel permissive? Or like, what's the language that really you think parents are like struggling with about what this all means about them?
5:45 Speaker 01 I know in that moment, I'm probably thinking, oh, you think I'm weak?
5:49 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Hmm.
5:50 Speaker 01 You think you can get over on me? You think that you're in charge?
5:55 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Hmm.
5:56 Speaker 01 You know, you think you're the bo, you think you're the boss. You, you do whatever you want to do around here. And so if I don't let you know who's in charge.
6:06 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Hmm.
6:07 Speaker 01 At all times.
6:09 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
6:09 Speaker 01 You know, I'm not doing my job.
6:12 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Look, first of all, I think you're right. So thank you for naming that. And I, this picture of parents being like, yep, that is, yep, that's it. Cause it's, it's really like deep. Like if you think about that, like what, so it's, cause this can happen. Like our kid can be two.
6:26 Speaker 01 Yes.
6:27 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Six. They can be 10, but they can be two.
6:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:32 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And my kid does something I say not to do. I'm like, oh, you think you're the boss of me? Like, I don't maybe say that, but that, oh, you think, yeah, like, you're saying I'm weak?
6:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, you think, yeah, you can do whatever you want around here. You just get up, you, you, oh, you're not wearing that, you're throwing that away, you're not eating that?
6:48 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Wait, can I ask you a question? Never thought about this.
6:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:51 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Do you think when you're sleeping and it's 2:00 a.m. with your four-month-old?
6:55 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
6:56 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And they're screaming for you, ah, right?
6:58 Speaker 01 Right.
6:58 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Do you think parents then are like, oh, you think you're the boss of me? Or no, not then?
7:02 Speaker 01 No.
7:03 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Well, just, let's walk through that. I've never thought about that. Like, when does it?
7:06 Speaker 01 When does it change?
7:07 Dr. Becky Kennedy? So why not at four months?
7:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, but I think at that age, we really do believe that they are helpless. But I think that the more that they are able to do, and, you know, the more we start shifting, we're, we're changing colored cups now, we're, we're changing meals, we're, we're, we're doing all of these things that they want us to do. And then when we ask them to do something and they don't do it, it's like, I've been doing, I've been doing this all day.
7:35 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
7:35 Speaker 01 Putting your shoes on, changing your pants, and now I ask you to do one simple thing and you can't do it. So who's in charge here, me or you?
7:42 Dr. Becky Kennedy? So I just think that that's interesting to track. Like, it's true, when my baby cried in the middle of the night.
7:48 Speaker 01 Right, I didn't.
7:48 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Or I took them out in an outfit and they spit up on it. I'm definitely not like, oh, you think you're the boss of me?
7:54 Speaker 01 Right.
7:55 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Like, oh, you think we're just going home because of, you know, like, I had a plan to go out? We don't really think that with our nine-month-olds.
8:00 Speaker 01 We don't, but at some point, it does start to happen, yeah. And it's just, it's not kind of non-stop.
8:06 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah, it is. But you know what's interesting? It's non-stop because we see the world through whatever glasses we're wearing.
8:13 Speaker 01 Right.
8:14 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And maybe you're saying at a certain age, I never thought about it this way, one of the sets of glasses I don't even think we realize are on all the time is just power.
8:22 Speaker 01 Yes.
8:23 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Who has power?
8:24 Speaker 01 Right. I was gonna ask you that because I'm like, I'm talking, I'm noticing the glasses and I'm like, at some point, they come on and they never come off.
8:34 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right.
8:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm, I'm always seeing it that way.
8:37 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Is it power dynamics? Are you evaluating your own strength and worth?
8:42 Speaker 01 Yes.
8:42 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Through your toddler's behavior?
8:45 Speaker 01 Whether or not they're doing what I say sometimes.
8:47 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yep, yes, yes, it is true. I am. Is that not a good equation?
8:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, I, I am doing that. Even if, even if I don't want to be doing it, I'm doing it.
8:58 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
9:00 Speaker 01 Why?
9:01 Dr. Becky Kennedy? A lot of us, if we think back on our earliest years, a lot of dynamics were around power. Power, fear.
9:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:08 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right? I'm gonna, right? I kind of know my parents are more powerful. There's a lot of fear. So I'm gonna do this thing short term until out of their house and they lord things over us. And if you don't do this, then you don't get to do this. They're all like power equations.
9:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:22 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And so I do think that lives deep in our bones way before we became a parent. It was just, there's probably of the unwritten models of parenting had a lot to do, I think, with power and fear.
9:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:36 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right?
9:37 Speaker 01 And outside of the home too. I think about school, wherever you go, school, camp. You know, it was always that sort of, that sort of deal.
9:45 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And so here's this moment. Let's just say it is my toddler, start there, won't put on their shoes. And even if it's my seven year old, because I think some people say, but my seven year old should know better. Right? I mean, we all should know better with things, but let's say there's a situation. And I think the parent starts thinking, I can't put up with this. Also, they can't think this is okay. They can't feel like they run this house. I have to punish them. I have a question for you. I don't know the right answer to this question either. What is punishment? Like maybe what's an example of it? And what do we, even if it doesn't make sense, what do we think it does in terms of teaching and effectiveness?
10:24 Speaker 01 You know, it's, I want you to know that I didn't like what you did.
10:27 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Uh huh.
10:28 Speaker 01 I don't want it to happen again. And because you did that, I need to do something to you, take something from you. Something needs to happen to you so that you know not to do that again. And that I don't like it.
10:42 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Okay. So actually I want to break that down. Step one, I need you to know.
10:46 Speaker 01 Yep.
10:46 Dr. Becky Kennedy? That I don't approve of this behavior.
10:49 Speaker 01 Step one.
10:49 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Okay. So punishment is a way of telling your kid that.
10:53 Speaker 01 Okay.
10:53 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right? We're going to think of those alternatives for each of these needs. But I get as a parent, if my kid is doing something that I don't think is okay. I actually understand that. I kind of want them to know that I don't think it's okay. Totally reasonable. Whether that has to come out in punishment, we can think about, but punishment says that, not okay.
11:09 Speaker 01 Right.
11:09 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Number two, punishment kind of says, um, I don't want you to do this again. Maybe number three brings it together. That maybe the best way, tell me this is true. The best way of telling you I don't approve and trying to have something not happen again is to make you. Feel bad, or to make you feel small, or to deliver some type of emotional, physical
11:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:36 Dr. Becky Kennedy? pain. Is that?
11:38 Speaker 01 That's, that was my third of something has to happen to you.
11:41 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Something has to happen to you.
11:43 Speaker 01 Yes.
11:44 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Do you think there is that equal opposite thing where I'm upset about this? So, so you have to be?
11:51 Speaker 01 You need to feel some of this in some way.
11:54 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I can't be the one watching you behave in this way and my body feels uncomfortable?
11:59 Speaker 01 Right.
12:00 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Like, is there an indignance there? Like, your body has to feel uncomfortable.
12:03 Speaker 01 This is how I grew up. My mom's like, oh, you, you embarrass me. This would, before we go into a store.
12:08 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
12:08 Speaker 01 You embarrass me and I'm going to embarrass you.
12:13 Speaker 01 And that sort of, whatever I feel, you feel.
12:16 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Hmm. Did she?
12:19 Speaker 01 Yes. Yes, she did. But, or I knew, you know, it's like, I was like, I knew that if I made her uncomfortable, if I embarrassed her, she was going to ensure that I was also embarrassed.
12:35 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Interesting.
12:36 Speaker 01 Yep.
12:36 Dr. Becky Kennedy? So this is old, beyond the punishment
12:38 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
12:39 Dr. Becky Kennedy? part, even though it's part of the punishment is, if I feel bad as a parent from a situation, you need to feel that way.
12:45 Speaker 01 Yes.
12:46 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And, and I just want to say something because my mind's going this direction. So I don't know if anyone listening is. I don't know why I picture someone thinking maybe I'm thinking. Oh, the days when children listen to parents in stores. Like a little nostalgic, like a little nostalgic, like, oh, the days where I could in theory say to my kid, if you do this, here's what's going to happen. And they were like a little bit nervous enough to modify their behavior. Because I do think there's a little bit of wistfulness for the impact, maybe not the tactics, but the impact.
13:20 Speaker 01 For sure.
13:21 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right?
13:21 Speaker 01 Yeah. It worked sometimes.
13:23 Dr. Becky Kennedy? It worked sometimes.
13:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:25 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And I know you and I have talked about other consequences, long-term, short-term.
13:30 Speaker 01 When I think about being a black parent and I think about if there's no punishment.
13:37 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yes.
13:38 Speaker 01 If there's no clear consequence, how will my kid know?
13:44 Speaker 01 That there are consequences in the world. Okay, you are five today. And I call your name and you don't turn around, or you roll your eyes, or you hiss. And you're out in the real world and you get pulled over.
14:05 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
14:05 Speaker 01 And you do any one of those things, there is a great chance that you will be punished harshly, or you may not be alive.
14:16 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And the layer, I think, that you're not saying, but is implied, and that is different for you than a white child.
14:21 Speaker 01 Completely.
14:21 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yes, that is very real.
14:23 Speaker 01 And so when I, you know, if, when I'm with my kids, that is something that people say is that that is something white kids can do. That is something white kids can do and black kids can't do that. Like, almost like we don't have the time. You know what I mean? It's like, I have to speed this up because the world is not safe. And you, Becky, you can take seven years practicing, but I don't feel like I have that much time.
14:55 Speaker 01 And so I have to show my kid, at least give them an idea of what the consequences might feel like, so that maybe they won't want to do any of those things out in the world that could harm them.
15:09 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And what goes on in your body as you say all those words? I'm sure you're thinking about your kids.
15:16 Speaker 01 You know, it's awful because I can think about why my parents parented the way that they did. And I can know that it was, in some ways, when we talk about, you know, my number one job is to keep my child safe. I think they really believe that that's what they were doing. And I feel like there are a lot of black parents that believe that they are keeping their kids safe that way.
15:43 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And like, if my kid is unfairly singled out on the street.
15:48 Speaker 01 Yes.
15:49 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Pulled over, whatever it is.
15:50 Speaker 01 Yes.
15:51 Dr. Becky Kennedy? They better know how to keep their body safe and calm and not do anything that could be interpreted.
15:58 Speaker 01 Correct. Or they're in a group, you know, you're in a group of white kids.
16:02 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Uh huh.
16:03 Speaker 01 You, you can't do what those kids can do. You know, if you're in a group of white kids and you do the exact same thing, there is a chance that you will be punished in a way that those other kids won't.
16:19 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And one of the things I think you and I, I think agree on, what if the best chance of my kid learning how to stay calm in the face of authority isn't punishing? What if that only leads them to lock away their anger and rage and that makes it more likely it comes out when they're teens and they aren't scared of adults anymore because they're not small? Like, do you feel like that beyond feeling better, do you, are you like, no, no, no, part of it is I actually think that is?
16:50 Speaker 01 No, I a thousand percent, I, I see it now. He's at a point where he can start to tell you when something's going to bother him. It's like he can almost pin down what's going to, what sends him on a tear and so he may not even do it. And so I am like, oh my goodness, he is starting to learn the ways to stay safe. And even one of his teachers said, no one can tell you how they're feeling better than he can.
17:21 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Wow.
17:22 Speaker 01 And I, to me, I think that is what will keep him safe. But I think the hardest part, and I talk to you about this all the time, is that if,
17:33 Speaker 01 if I want my child, who will become an adult, to understand sort of like authority.
17:41 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yep.
17:43 Speaker 01 And to just stay calm in the moment, they have to be able to practice this with me.
17:52 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
17:53 Speaker 01 And I think that's the hardest part of like.
17:58 Speaker 01 They have to be able to yell and like, like you said, it is a practice.
18:02 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
18:03 Speaker 01 That they're not going to get the first time.
18:05 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
18:05 Speaker 01 So sometimes, you know, it's like, this is a long game. This is a long game. And I think that, okay. I'm gonna stay calm. They're going to have a moment. And I'm going to have to do that. Many times. Until they. Can essentially co-regulate. But I think that's the part that's the hardest is that. It's hard to believe that this could quote unquote work.
18:31 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Well, it really sounds, it does sound like. You're coaching. You're, you're, you're trying to coach him. You're trying to coach him.
18:39 Speaker 01 Yes.
18:39 Dr. Becky Kennedy? What would you need? What will eventually help?
18:43 Speaker 01 Right.
18:43 Dr. Becky Kennedy? You change your behavior, what's really going on? And if I want to be your coach in that.
18:50 Speaker 01 Yes.
18:50 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Kind of have to be on your team.
18:52 Speaker 01 Right.
18:52 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And we have to have a strong enough relationship that you're willing to be influenced by me even as you get older.
18:58 Speaker 01 Right.
18:58 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right?
18:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:00 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I mean, I think about that a lot. Now, I have a 14 year old and I think. You, it's true, you still want to have influence on your kid as they get older, almost especially. You're gonna have it in smaller doses, but the stakes. The stakes get higher.
19:13 Speaker 01 Right.
19:14 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right? And. Connection. Is always the portal. The influence, like staying connected to someone, you're, if you're not connected to someone, when you're 14. When your kid is 14, they have this realization. I'm bigger than you.
19:30 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I really don't care about your timeouts. Like those things. Doesn't make sense. When I'm out and I don't come home, if all you have is words and threats and then I just get to go to school again tomorrow, like there's.
19:41 Speaker 01 Right.
19:41 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Nothing. They, they kind of can call us.
19:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:44 Dr. Becky Kennedy? On our bluff.
19:45 Speaker 01 But. Connection, I think that is the, that is the place that I think it's tough because I feel like I was taught that if my kid does something bad, I go away from them.
19:56 Dr. Becky Kennedy? If my kid does something bad, we disconnect. I, I pull away my love as a punishment?
20:02 Speaker 01 Yes.
20:03 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yes, that, that is a punishment.
20:04 Speaker 01 That is a punishment. You know, I'm not talking or I'm, you know, you can tell that I'm, I'm no longer dealing with you. And I think that is something that to go toward our kids when they do something we don't like.
20:17 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yes. That we can still stay connected to the good kid underneath. This is kind of brings it all together. I can tell my kid that behavior wasn't okay.
20:26 Speaker 01 Right.
20:26 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I can still see the good kid underneath. I'm not so much connecting to the bad behavior as much as I'm staying connected to my good kid who's struggling.
20:36 Speaker 01 Right.
20:37 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And then I can act like a coach to have this behavior change. I have to figure out, well, what's really going on? And then, yeah, kind of help them change through skills, not just probably power and fear.
20:50 Speaker 01 Right, and giving it time.
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23:21 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Is there another way, maybe that you've even played around with your kids, of letting your kids know that you do not approve of their behavior that doesn't involve punishment?
23:31 Speaker 01 Yes.
23:32 Dr. Becky Kennedy? So how, just because I actually think for a lot of people, they're like, are there other options?
23:35 Speaker 01 There, there are. I, I told you when I met you, I never wanted to like, I certainly never wanted to hit my kids. And I just never felt like punishing worked because I'd been punished. And I'm just like, I don't know that this works, but I feel like I can let my kids know this is not okay.
23:57 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Uh huh.
23:58 Speaker 01 And...
24:01 Speaker 01 I don't necessarily need to make them feel like I feel, even if I am embarrassed. You know, it's like I have had my kid do things that were embarrassing or were hard. And I did not feel the need to like send him to his room to make him feel worse or take something from him.
24:23 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
24:24 Speaker 01 So, I mean, what have I done? What have I done? You know, I might say, I'm trying to think of a specific example.
24:29 Dr. Becky Kennedy? But you just said it. And actually, I think there's a version that's simple that you said, but you didn't even realize. You can tell your kid, that's not okay.
24:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:39 Dr. Becky Kennedy? That's not okay with me.
24:40 Speaker 01 Right.
24:41 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I mean, I could go so far, permission to any parent, say, I do not approve of this behavior. Like, you can make it
24:47 Speaker 01 Right.
24:48 Dr. Becky Kennedy? crystal clear with your language.
24:49 Speaker 01 Right.
24:50 Dr. Becky Kennedy? But you know, but let's just be honest, sometimes that does not feel like enough. Well, I thought you were gonna say something else. It doesn't feel as good.
24:56 Speaker 01 No.
24:56 Dr. Becky Kennedy? There's something.
24:57 Speaker 01 No, it doesn't.
24:58 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Can we just let ourselves think there is something so cathartic
25:01 Speaker 01 Yes.
25:02 Dr. Becky Kennedy? about no dessert for a week. And you say it, and for the split second, it, it, I'm, it feels good.
25:10 Speaker 01 It does.
25:11 Dr. Becky Kennedy? It really does. You're like, I was so frustrated and I get to, and I think this is what it is. I get to vomit all of my frustration
25:20 Speaker 01 Yes.
25:21 Dr. Becky Kennedy? onto my child.
25:22 Speaker 01 Yes.
25:22 Dr. Becky Kennedy? That's what it is. It's vomiting.
25:24 Speaker 01 Right.
25:24 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right?
25:25 Speaker 01 Of like, this is what, either this is what happened to me, or this what, this is what would happen to me.
25:29 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yes.
25:30 Speaker 01 Like, if, if I said to my mom, if I gave an order of what I wanted, and then she brought it back and I said, oh, I don't want that anymore. Oh, what? And my kids do that all the, I didn't say, I don't want that. Mom, you know, I don't want that. Why would you order that? You said that.
25:50 Dr. Becky Kennedy? This is what happens when you have children. Like, it is so crazy, the gaslighting that happens. I just want to validate.
25:56 Speaker 01 Okay, please.
25:58 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I would like pasta and chicken. And you're like, sure, reasonable. And you literally go to your child, here is pasta and chicken. And they go, I don't like pasta and chicken. And there are times when I've heard myself say things like, it's like. I need my kid to know that like, I'm not crazy.
26:17 Speaker 01 There's that.
26:18 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Like, I need to be harsh to prove to my five-year-old that he did say pasta and chicken.
26:26 Speaker 01 Yes.
26:26 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Because if he gets so upset, "You said it, and if you don't tell me you said it right now."
26:32 Speaker 01 Yes.
26:33 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I am going to fill in the blank with something that I have at most a 15% chance of following through on.
26:37 Speaker 01 Right.
26:37 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Let's be clear. There are so many of us, I think especially women, who were taught to look elsewhere to learn our internal reality.
26:44 Speaker 01 Yes.
26:45 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Am I allowed to feel upset about this? Is this a big deal?
26:48 Speaker 01 Right.
26:48 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And so, if you're thinking, "Oh my God, that's so pathetic," that's kind of right. I, on some level, do have this wish my kid will say, "You're right, Mom, I did say that."
26:56 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
26:57 Dr. Becky Kennedy? That's something I can have more compassion rather than judgment for myself, because probably even before I became a mom, I was encouraged to kind of always look outside for validation. And so, sure, that pattern comes up now, and I can start to shift it now. But I just, I hate the idea of a parent really blaming themselves for that. Like, that's probably historical.
27:16 Speaker 01 Right.
27:17 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right?
27:17 Speaker 01 Right.
27:18 Dr. Becky Kennedy? This part is always confusing. Like, I guess the theory is, if they get so upset after a bad behavior, the next time they're in that situation, they're gonna think about, "Wait, the last time I did this, I got punished." Like, that's where it always a little bit breaks down for me. Like, "Wait a second, the last time I hit my sister, I didn't get dessert. So I am going to pause right now and not hit my sister." Like, I still, I feel like we're focusing punishment is on the after behavior.
27:51 Speaker 01 Yes.
27:52 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And it's hard for me to really make sense of. And then I think my kid, before the behavior, is gonna access the thing that happened last time after the behavior. Like, but I think that's, we kind of think it works like that.
28:03 Speaker 01 That's exactly how we think it works. I mean, as you were explaining that, and I'm like, "Oh, wow. Yeah, I guess, I guess that does make sense."
28:10 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right. Right. Can I even think it works like that, that well for adults?
28:14 Speaker 01 No.
28:14 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right? Or it's sophisticated to think my young kid is gonna be able to think about all that.
28:18 Speaker 01 Put all of those pieces together. Right. Hold on.
28:21 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Oh.
28:21 Speaker 01 "The last time I did this, let me s-" I'm gonna take a deep breath.
28:24 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Henceforth.
28:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:25 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Henceforth, I shall not do.
28:27 Speaker 01 Right.
28:27 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Okay. So let's just paint an alternative. And I think what you said is really poignant. I haven't thought about it. It's the alternative we're going to paint isn't no big deal. Who cares about soccer? Let's go for ice cream. But any alternative to punishment, I feel like that.
28:42 Speaker 01 Right.
28:42 Dr. Becky Kennedy? But let's, okay, so you go first. You sign him up for soccer.
28:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:46 Dr. Becky Kennedy? You go to the first day of practice. And I know you're signing, I'm not, I'm not doing it.
28:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, you know, I mean, what am I doing? Because I've been in this situation. It's like I sign up for dance and we get to dance and, and, and she's not going inside. And we're not leaving. That's kind of, I, I already committed to the time. So that, that is what I'm telling myself is that I'm going to be here for the 45 minutes. I don't want to be the person that's like, oh, you don't feel like it today? We'll just leave. And so I'm like, all right, why don't we stand? Why don't we like look through the window?
29:21 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Okay.
29:22 Speaker 01 See how you feel? And then I will tell you, and then I'm going to go. I'm going to go and the teacher is going to come get you. And I'm okay with her kind of crying through the class.
29:36 Dr. Becky Kennedy? By the way, you know, your kid.
29:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:40 Dr. Becky Kennedy? That's the thing.
29:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:41 Dr. Becky Kennedy? You know, your kid and you kind of know, and I always love this phrase, like you, you know, her arc?
29:46 Speaker 01 Yes.
29:47 Dr. Becky Kennedy? So just say a little, like, why might this be? I always call it, why is this maybe just part of her arc?
29:51 Speaker 01 This because, because as soon as I, as soon as I walk away, her, all of the times this has happened, I get a photo of her just more joyous than she was before we left.
30:07 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And they're like, your daughter is amazing in dance class.
30:11 Speaker 01 As soon as you walked away, mom, she was fine.
30:16 Dr. Becky Kennedy? That's exactly right. And I'll just paint a different picture in my house. Cause I think, let's talk about getting out of the house, right? Which can feel like such a disaster and my kids being so hard and they're not getting ready. And again, first thought, punishment, because I need to let them know it's not okay.
30:28 Speaker 01 Right.
30:29 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I, I want some validation that they're making mornings hard and I don't want them to do this. Okay, if we put, well, there's other ways to do the first couple of things. And maybe, I think we're just have curiosity, maybe punishment isn't the best way. And maybe there is a lot between punishment and weak and pathetic. So here's, again, a different way of intervening. First of all, I really do say to myself when I'm on a hard morning stage, like to myself, just mornings have been rough. My kids have been dragging their feet. I just thought, that is all true. Like, I know that. That matters. That like, takes the heat down a tiny percentage, because I'm not looking for them to give me that.
31:05 Speaker 01 Okay.
31:06 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Number two.
31:08 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I, I think a lot about whether we approach our kids, our partners. Am I approaching you like you're on one side of the table? And I'm looking at you like you are the problem?
31:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:20 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And there wouldn't be a problem. You just came to my side of the table. The ultimate partner fight. If you were like me.
31:26 Speaker 01 Right.
31:27 Dr. Becky Kennedy? We wouldn't have an issue. Versus, same with the kid. We're actually on the same side of the table. And together, we're looking at a problem. And I think this is really powerful as an alternative to punishment, because the problem isn't necessarily my kid. The problem is that mornings have been a disaster. And if I assume we're actually on the same team against that, I would actually have not a punishment approach, not a permissive approach. I would coach like a coaching approach. It's like if you have a kid who keeps missing layups. You could say, I'm going to punish you if you miss another one. But I actually don't know if there's any parent listening who's like, yes. Yes, to that, coach, punish my child. Or if they want the coach who said, something's going on with layups.
32:12 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I'm on your team. Let's figure it out together.
32:15 Speaker 01 I
32:16 Dr. Becky Kennedy? What comes up for you?
32:16 Speaker 01 I just, as long as I've been doing this, it is still sometimes a challenge to remember we are on the same team. I don't know that there was a parent out there that doesn't, that hasn't, like, mornings don't wear them down.
32:32 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right.
32:33 Speaker 01 And if I could just say, you know, the morning is, is the issue. And it's not the fact that my kid never knows where their shoes are.
32:45 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And, and, look, and I do think this is a practice. Mindsets are practices and our old mindsets come in. And the truth is, same team mindset is the opposite of punishment mindset. I don't think the opposite of punishing is permissiveness. Maybe the opposite of punishing is being on the same team. And being on the same team doesn't mean condoning behavior.
33:10 Speaker 01 Right.
33:10 Dr. Becky Kennedy? If I'm coaching a basketball team. And my player has a lot of turnovers. And I say, hey, I'm on your team. Let's figure it out together. It's interesting. I just don't think anyone thinks, oh, oh. So you're telling Jason Tatum that it's okay. He has turnovers. That's like a psychotic interpretation. No one would even think that if I'm Coach Missoula of the Boston Celtics. Right? They would think that's a good coach. Of course, you're on the same team. Everyone wants the same things. We forget I do have a good kid. It doesn't seem like it, but I do. So I just want to finish this morning because if I'm in a good spot, I'll talk to my kid at night, not in the morning when it's a disaster. Hey, mornings have been really tough. And I actually think, I just wanted to let you know, first of all, it's nobody's fault.
33:54 Dr. Becky Kennedy? We're on the same team. I feel like you probably want them to go smoother, too. Like, nobody wants this yelling, screaming thing. And so I have a couple of ideas what I could do. I wonder if you have a couple of ideas that would make mornings easier for you? And we could, I don't know, just kind of talk about it for a minute and we can figure it out together. Because one of the things I learn every time I talk to my kids that way. And for someone thinking, but my kid's two or three. I started talking to my kids that way when they were one and two. They're not going to say anything profound, but this is all a practice for how you're relating. And even a young kid who can't articulate something sophisticated knows when they're being approached as opposite team or same team.
34:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:32 Dr. Becky Kennedy? We just feel it. And I almost always get something like, you know, maybe I can put out my shoes the night before. And I can be like, great idea. Or if they don't, I could say something like, is it hard to leave the morning? Just hard to like, get out of the house and get ready for the day ahead. And usually, by the way, if anyone said that to me, I'd just be like, yes, you know?
34:56 Speaker 01 Right.
34:57 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And going back to that last thing of, but I want my kid to be less likely to do it again. When I bring my kid in on the same team and they're involved in coming up with solution. I really mean this. I have found that to be consistently the most helpful thing in getting them to change behavior because they're actually brought in to being part of a solution instead of being labeled as the problem. I mean, it's completely different.
35:21 Speaker 01 I know. As you're, as you're saying this, my brain is just like bubbling because.
35:29 Speaker 01 It almost feels like what you're saying is as a parent, there are things that I can do to either slow myself down or prevent having to lean on just that's it. This is over. And what you're saying is, okay, if I prepare like a little bit, like you said, if I just, I'm going to just prepare a little bit. If I know that this is an issue or, you know, if I don't want something broken, I may start the night before or before I get it. Hey, we're going to be getting a new, my kids love to break TVs.
36:08 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right. I'm sorry.
36:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, they're just right.
36:12 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Your bank account.
36:12 Speaker 01 We're going to be getting a new something.
36:15 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
36:15 Speaker 01 Right. But also what I really love, and I think this one is, is tougher parents because, because of sometimes the age of like involving them.
36:24 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yes.
36:25 Speaker 01 Of saying, what do you think we might do?
36:29 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
36:29 Speaker 01 Um, when we get the new television.
36:32 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yes.
36:33 Speaker 01 That, you know, maybe we won't throw toys in the living room. You know, it may be what.
36:40 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right.
36:40 Speaker 01 You know, you get them involved because I will just tell you that is what happened.
36:44 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
36:44 Speaker 01 This is definitely a punishable offense. My daughter threw a toy at the television and it's done. And that's something that I probably would have been punished for.
36:53 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
36:54 Speaker 01 And but it, but I, you know, I definitely didn't do the prepart. But now that I know when I got the second television, you know, I'm like, all right, let's get you involved. And I did not, there was no punishment. I don't, I didn't yell. And it's just like, okay, let's not throw toys across the living room.
37:11 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And, and this is a hard part. When our kids are young, especially, we'll see our kid near the TV throwing something we know they shouldn't throw. And I'm so guilty of this. Stop throwing that. Please don't throw that. Even though the rule is no having that in the living room.
37:28 Speaker 01 Right.
37:29 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Versus, hey, I'm coming over to you. We're on the same team. You know, we don't do that. If you can't give it to me by the time I get there, I will carry it. I will carry you in it, whatever it is.
37:39 Speaker 01 Right.
37:39 Dr. Becky Kennedy? To another room, like kind of stepping in sooner. What is kind of the amended, let's see, that's the, like, is this true? If I don't punish, I'm permissive. If I don't punish, I'm weak. What's the kind of, yeah, where are we landing here?
37:54 Speaker 01 Where are we landing?
37:55 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah, where are we landing this plane?
37:57 Speaker 01 If I don't punish, I am building skills. If I don't punish, I am, I don't know, I'm staying connected. I'm letting my child know that I am on their team and that I'm willing to, however long it takes, like you said, if it was swimming, if it was anything else, however long it takes for us to learn this together, because I feel like there's all these little things that we are punishing for. And it's just like, you know, that I'm willing to, to stay with you in this until this changes. And eventually it does.
38:32 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I, I really like that. I think, I'm trying to think where I'm landing. If I don't punish, or like the opposite of punishment isn't being weak and permissive. Maybe the, the true opposite of punishment is same team leadership.
38:47 Speaker 01 Yes.
38:48 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Right? Cause I think that's what I'm left with too. So much of punishing is just reacting to.
38:53 Speaker 01 Right.
38:54 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And I think the best leaders, they're not reacting to. They're grounded enough to, they make decisions, they, they, they lead.
39:03 Speaker 01 Right.
39:04 Dr. Becky Kennedy? They don't just react. And so I think same team leadership is kind of what the best coaches do. I think it's what the best CEOs do when they're in hard moments. And that feels actually powerful to me.
39:17 Speaker 01 Yes.
39:17 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And I think that's important because I do think parents have an appropriate amount of power. Not control, but just, there's a, there's an authority.
39:26 Speaker 01 For sure.
39:26 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And so there's, I think the opposite of punishment is embodying that authority and leading and coaching, being on the same team. So is it true, if you don't punish, you're permissive? I'm going to go first to Miley to see where she landed and then I'll share my thoughts. Is it true?
39:45 Speaker 01 No, it's not true. It's not true that if you don't punish, you're permissive. If you don't punish, you're taking the time to build skills. For change, for the change that you actually want to see.
39:56 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Yeah.
39:57 Speaker 01 You're not weak. You're not letting them walk over you. I think you're, you're fine if you don't punch.
40:04 Dr. Becky Kennedy? I really don't think I have that much to add. I think that's exactly right. I don't think it's true either. And the thing I want to do, if this resonates, I want to let you know I'm going to do this for you is, to me, sometimes the best way of bringing something to life is actually through a specific example. So what I'm going to do on my blog as a follow-up, you can go to the show notes to get the link, is I'm going to take a certain situation that drives us crazy at different age groups. So no matter how old your kid is, you'll have an example that makes sense. I'm going to go through kind of punishment, what feels natural for most of us, permissiveness, and then what I kind of call good inside sturdy leadership. Because I think that's what this middle ground is that we're talking about. So you can kind of see it really clearly in very real life examples. All right, let's end the way we always do.
40:49 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Place your feet on the ground.
40:52 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Place a hand on your heart.
40:55 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside.
41:04 Dr. Becky Kennedy? See you soon.
41:09 Dr. Becky Kennedy? You know, parents carry a lot. In fact, data show that most parents spend every waking hour caring for someone else. So if you feel exhausted and stretched thin, you're not alone, and that makes sense. And look, I also know from experience what a relief it is to find caregiving support. Finding a babysitter you trust and your kids will have fun with. That makes it so much easier to go back to work or travel or, yeah, even go on one date with your partner. Care.com makes it easier to find trusted, background-checked caregivers with search and hiring tools you won't find on social media. Whether you need full-time help or just part-time help with morning drop-off or after-school care,
41:53 Dr. Becky Kennedy? Care.com can help you find nannies, sitters, and daycares. And you can find the expertise that matters to you. Think homework help, CPR training, or experience with multiple kids.
42:04 Dr. Becky Kennedy? And if you're considering daycare, you can search, compare, and request tours, and could even get a discount on daycare tuition as a Care.com member. If you need more support, Care.com can help. For a limited time, you can use the code BECKY35 to save 35% on a Care.com membership. When it's not you, it's Care.com.
42:30 Dr. Becky Kennedy? You know that feeling when your brain is at full capacity, right? I mean, you have a reminder from the dentist in your email, a birthday party invitation on the fridge, and your kid just texted you about a soccer game they forgot to mention until that moment, and you just cannot remember one more thing.
42:47 Dr. Becky Kennedy? That's where Skylight Calendar comes in. It's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs with Google, Apple, and Outlook to help your whole family see the days and weeks ahead. And I really love the Tasks feature, which is designed to help your kid build routines around things like homework and chores. And when your kid can do those things independently, it's a huge win for everyone in the family. Skylight Calendar is so much more than just a calendar. It's something you can add to your routine to help your family work together. And right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com/becky.
43:26 Dr. Becky Kennedy? That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T.com/Becky for $30 off your 15-inch calendar. MySkylight.com/becky.
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