How Misty Copeland Turned Instability Into Ballet

Dr. Becky talks with the first Black woman to become a principal dancer at American Ballet Theatre about the years she was asked to paint her skin to match the rest of the corps, the mentors who taught her to advocate for herself, and what confidence looks like once you stop having to prove it.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You know that feeling when your brain is at full capacity, right? I mean, you have a reminder from the dentist in your email, a birthday party invitation on the fridge, and your kid just texted you about a soccer game they forgot to mention until that moment, and you just cannot remember one more thing.

• 0:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's where Skylight Calendar comes in. It's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs with Google, Apple, and Outlook to help your whole family see the days and weeks ahead. And I really love the Tasks feature, which is designed to help your kid build routines around things like homework and chores. And when your kid can do those things independently, it's a huge win for everyone in the family. Skylight Calendar is so much more than just a calendar. It's something you can add to your routine to help your family work together. And right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com/becky.

• 1:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T.com/becky for $30 off your 15-inch calendar. Myskylight.com/becky. I had a really interesting conversation with my eight-year-old the other day. I was talking with him and my husband, and we were kind of talking about stories from when we were younger, about things that we wanted and didn't have, and kind of memories of like being at a dance and all the kids having a certain shirt and, you know, not being able to get that shirt. Just kind of real-life struggles of wanting and not having. He ended up asking a really interesting question. How much wanting and having

• 1:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  versus wanting and not having is good for a kid? Like, what's the right percentage in terms of developing kind of into an adult who's resilient, who works hard? Obviously, there's no answer to this question, but it's actually something that kept coming to mind today as I was talking with the absolutely incredible Misty Copeland. Misty grew up in real poverty, in real instability. Men in and out of her home, not being sure what food would be on the table, living in a motel. She started ballet at 13, which probably surprises a lot of us,

• 2:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  given we know she is one of the greatest ballerinas of all time. She definitely had an extreme version of wanting and not having. And I'm not just talking about t-shirts. I'm talking about safety. I'm talking about connection. I'm talking about people asking her basic questions about her life and about her day. And then a lot changed in her tween years. And then here she is today, right? She's the first Black woman to become a principal dancer at American Ballet Theater. She is an icon, and she's more than that. She's married. She has a four-year-old son.

• 3:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  She delights in the safety and stability of her home today and the love and attention she pours into her child. You're going to get so much out of this conversation I had with Misty today. It's one that left me with so many new thoughts and things that I want to do today in my home. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is another episode in the series, How We're Raised, this one with Misty Copeland.

• 3:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Misty, so you've recently retired from dancing. You have a four-year-old. Just let's get started. Tell me kind of what a normal Tuesday, Wednesday looks like for you.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. You know, it's so crazy because I've spent so much of, more than half of my life with so much structure and, you know, being a classical ballerina and working for a company. And now I am in this interesting time where I call the shots and I create my own schedule. So every day looks so different that it's like hard to even say. I mean, I guess the consistent thing is waking up and taking Jackson to school, like getting him ready. So it's really, yeah, that's like the consistent thing is that, you know, he's up at 7:30. I'm making him, right now, it's been like two months straight

• 4:27Speaker 01

  of Halla French toast that he wants every morning.

• 4:31Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I mean, that's, I'm, when do I get the invite?

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, come on over.

• 4:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I do, because that is not my morning with my kids or me, you know? So that, my children shall not hear this interview. Nope.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  I only have one, so it's a little easier.

• 4:47Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  It's manageable.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, uh, and taking him to school, like, it's kind of like a non-negotiable, unless there's, you know, you know, there are certain circumstances if I'm traveling or something. But, um, and then, you know, I have a lot of meetings, whether it's for the foundation or for my production company, depending on if I'm in the midst of writing a book, you know, there'll be time committed to that. I have a book coming out in the fall. So, um, I try and squeeze in, you know, some kind of movement, moving my body.

• 5:20Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Um, I'm kind of back in ballet class a couple of times a week, doing some personal training, like weightlifting, things like that.

• 5:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Um, I travel a lot for like speaking engagements, so there might be something like that in the city or outside. So it's kind of all over the map, but I like that. I don't, I don't think I ever thought I would say that because I crave stability and consistency.

• 5:46Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  And I think I'm now at a stage in my life where I'm like, I can function without that.

• 5:54Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Well, that's what I want to double-click on. Like, I'm just thinking about, as an outsider to the ballet world, but what I would assume is a lot of structure, a lot of consistency, like even with raw talent, talent alone, without the hours, without the routine, I'm guessing, does not get someone, you know? And then I'm thinking about life with a four-year-old. You don't know what side of the weight, you know, they don't know what side of the bed they wake up on, or maybe they do like Halla French toast for their favorite food for 40 days. And then one day, they're like, I hate Halla French toast.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 6:24Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I've never liked it. And so, you know, you're like, oh, my goodness. And so, yeah, can you tell me a little bit about that? I don't know, that shift or this part of you, I'm guessing, that can really lock into, you know, something planned and sticking with something in a routine. And then at the same time in parenthood, clearly this part of you that can roll with the flow or expect the unexpected.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, I love this question. I feel like classical ballet has prepared me for motherhood in so many ways. And I think it's because there has to be that balance of freedom within the form that happens in ballet.

• 7:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Freedom within the form.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Yes. And so, you know, I think that initially with ballet, what I was so drawn to was, um, that, that need for the consistency and the stability and, um, and, uh, knowing that I'm going to show up and like knowing what to expect every day, because I did not have that, um, throughout my childhood, like throughout my youth. There was so much movement and, you know, moving different schools, different fathers. My mother married five times. I mean, there was, there was just so little stability and consistency that I was really craving that. But it's, so as much as ballet,

• 7:49Speaker 01

  you know, you have to show up again and again. And I think that's something that I needed and wanted was to show up and know I'm going to do my pliés and my tendus and my dégagés, and it's going to be in the exact same order every single day. And there was a comfort in that, which I think children do crave. And, uh, but at the same time, there's a creativity. And so it's kind of like the mix of these two things that exist, you know, coexist. And I think that as a parent, there's so much of that. It's like you want to create this stability and you want to have the consistency, but at the same time, you have to be ready to just be on your toes and not always knowing what's going to be thrown at you.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  And I think there's something about performance that does that. It's like as much as you prepare, you go on stage and there's so many elements you're not in control of. And I think I was always drawn to that, that I'm prepared and I know that I've got a good foundation.

• 8:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yep.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  But there's an excitement in not knowing what's going to be thrown at you, whether it's like the orchestra and the conductor doing their own thing, and the orchestra might be faster or slower than you're used to, or the lights might, something might happen, or your partner might forget the steps. Like, there's so many things that are thrown at you, but you've got this good foundation.

• 9:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Um, that I think is very similar to being a mom. But, you know, I think that so much of my, like, beginning years, like at American Ballet Theater, were kind of, uh... There wasn't a lot of freedom in terms of creativity in my mind, not that I was being told that. And not until, probably around the time that I started working with Prince, that he gave, he kind of-

• 9:40Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Sentences all of us can't say. Like, I would like to say that. It's not until I was working with Prince that I, it would just be a lie. I try to tell the truth, so, sorry, keep going. Just have to note that, like, so you need to, like, caveat that, you know?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  It was, um, yeah, such an interesting time that I never imagined would happen, like, you know, that we would come together in any way, but there was something that he, he kind of like changed my perspective on, um, in terms of, you know, what it means to just, to be confident and proud of being different and being unique. And, um, you know, I never really experienced improv, like, in classical ballet, that doesn't really exist. Yes, there can be moments of improvisation in terms of, like, how am I going to adjust to these elements that are, that might not happen on a daily basis, but in terms of actually improvising in the choreography, that's not something you do in classical ballet.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  You're, you're performing hundreds of years old choreography that's been passed down and, and, you know, and you have to do it exactly how this ballerina did it and blah, blah, blah. But with him, the first time I, I performed with him, I, I toured with him to France and he, I arrived the, the night before and, and I was like, what am I doing here? And he was like, oh, you're just, these are the songs you're gonna perform to and, and you can just do whatever you want. And I was like, what? That's not how it works for me. Like, I have choreography and, you know? And so I ended up going out there and literally just improvising and he, whenever he came onto the stage, I would leave.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  But I went back to ABT with this, like, different understanding of what it means to be creative and what it means to be an artist. And, um, I don't know, it prepared me in so many ways, again, to have that, that freedom and to be able to, like, make adjustments and things on my toes.

• 11:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, yeah, I hadn't thought about it in such a crystallized way, but so much of parenting is improv. I mean, you know, because whatever hard moment you prepare for from a book or from Instagram or for someone's course, at the end of the day, like, your kid is gonna throw you something different. You're reading about, okay, when your kid doesn't listen, but you're like, but my kid always isn't listening, like, they're naked eating a popsicle at 7:30 in the morning. Like, there's not really a book about that. And my other kid is screaming, you never pay attention to me and I have the biggest meeting of my life at 9:00 AM. So, like, that's not a chapter in anybody's book. But I'm thinking, just help me get back to that improv moment for you with Prince before.

• 12:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You didn't just show up able to do that. It felt new, but there was some amount of prep, even if it was more prescribed for years, that, that gave you enough to go do that. So, what, what was your dancing life, like, before that? Like, tell me a little bit more about that part.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, when you're talking right now, I'm connecting it really to the beginning, beginning, beginning years of my training. Yeah.

• 12:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Theologist.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:44Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Go back.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  So, we get to go back. Um, you know, I think because I started at 13 years old and I was the oldest girl in my, I mean, I was starting out in a ballet class with, like, five and six-year-olds and I'm 13 because I hadn't, I was ancient and totally grandma in there. And, um, and I think that because I had such a late start, um, that I was always improvising and trying to kind of fit in and I was really good at, um, I was a visual, I am a visual learner and I could mimic what I was seeing, like, really easily, but didn't mean that

• 13:26Speaker 01

  it was always, like, sticking necessarily, like, I, you know? I think that because I was always just kind of, like, getting by in my mind, you know, I'd show up these places and I could, like, um, I could, you know, audition and get a full scholarship and get into the high, the highest level in this program, but in terms of having, like, real stamina and true strength that builds up over years, which is why people start training at such a young age because it becomes a part of your muscle memory. But I think because I had existed in that space for so much of my young dancing life and even going into American Ballet Theater, I only had trained in ballet for four years, which is, like, unheard of-

• 14:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  -to start a professional career with that little bit of training. So, I was still really improvising in those early stages of my, um, professional career.

• 14:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Did you know that was an advantage then or did it feel intimidating at the time?

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Um-

• 14:24Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Neither.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  I don't know if I was intimidated. I was so used to surviving and being in survival mode for, for most of my life, that it wasn't new to kind of be in that state. It didn't feel uncomfortable. It was just like, oh, I know how to be in this space and, like, um, I, I don't know. It's like my upbringing prepared me so much for ballet. Ballet prepared me so much for motherhood, all of these things. It was like the perfect storm-

• 14:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  -of, um, you know, of, of instability growing up and just having so much thrown at me that once I got into the professional ballet world, I was like, this is nothing. You know, the stage and the studio were really the first safe spaces I'd ever experienced in my life, um, where I felt like no one could do anything to me, no one could, like, I'm on the stage and I felt completely protected and, and free, which is like the opposite of how most people feel on a stage or in ballet class. I mean, a lot of people think about ballet and they think, um, you know, that this is, like, I'm gonna have this teacher in here that's, like, telling, it's gonna be so strict and I'm gonna feel so, you know, uptight. Uh, and I felt the opposite.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  I, my, my body could relax for the first time. I felt, um, like I was being nurtured and, like, fed and, um, you know, I had severe migraines up until, like, I started ballet and I think it was like the stresses I was dealing with in my home life and then I came into the studio and it was like my body could just release and relax and, and have taken all of this beauty, whether it be the music or the movement and the structure, that it literally was like, I was meant to be here and to do this.

• 16:05Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Wow. What, what's coming up for you when you, when you talk about that? Like, that was kind of the first time I felt safe.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Um, you know, I, I think just about, from the moment I was two years old, I was born in Kansas City, Missouri. I was two and my mom picked up and, and divorced for the second time with my father and moved to Los Angeles. Uh, and that was like the beginning of just, like, chaos. Different men in, in our lives. My mom married five times, um, just constantly moving, not know, you know, by the time I was 13 years old, we were living in a motel. We were, me and my five siblings were sleeping on a floor, you know, in, in one room, um, never, not really knowing if there's gonna be food on the table, if there's gonna be a roof over our heads where we were going the next day.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  And so to be in a place where I knew what was going to happen every single day, literally to be in, in a studio where I'm in community, we're all doing the same thing, there's no hierarchy, I didn't feel, which is so crazy because there's so much hierarchy, like, in the ballet structure, but in the studio and in, in those, you know, being a student, I felt like I was one in this community and the teacher was there to, like, feed me. Um, and I was, you know, being seen for, like, the potential and that there were actual goals and dreams, like, I didn't have any of that before.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, going on stage, it was like, I can, I, the, I can't see the audience, it's just black and darkness and there, you know, people can't say anything to me other than, like, cheers and bravo. Um, and I can do, I can be in control. I can be in control of myself and my body and what I have to say.

• 17:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 18:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 19:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 20:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 20:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What got you in that class? Like, how'd you go from your childhood to the studio? Like, how'd you get there, literally?

• 20:43Speaker 01

  So, it was at the age of 12 that I... I don't know where this came from, but I just said, "I want to audition for the dance team at my middle school." And my whole family was like, "What are you thinking? This is the worst idea. You're so shy, you're so introverted. You don't want to be, like, in the spotlight. Why would you do this?" And I was like, "I just want to." Like, this... I mean, movement was something I was always drawn to. And I felt like I could express myself in ways that I couldn't verbally. I mean, I was auditioning with girls who grew up dancing and were actually in formal training and dance classes. And I was made captain. And the drill team coach was like, "Wow, you've got a lot of talent and potential.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  I want to introduce you to someone who teaches ballet classes at the community center, at the Boys and Girls Club." And I was already a member. And so, I was introduced to Cindy Bradley, who was teaching free ballet classes at public schools and in community centers and looking for more diverse students to give an opportunity to, who wouldn't otherwise be introduced to it. And I took my first class on a basketball court. And it was a little strange. She told me on that first day, "I think you're a prodigy. I think this is something you could do professionally." And I was just like, "What is this crazy lady talking about?" Within a couple of months, I was in the studio. I moved in with Cindy. And I ended up living with them for three years. It was a lot for my family.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  It was a lot for my mom. You know, I think it got to a point where she felt like I was being taken away from her. That was a decision we both made. I think it was a lot to see such a huge shift in me and such a huge change in the person that I was. You know, again, I'd never been in an environment where there was safety and stability. And I was literally being fed, like, nutritious foods. And I started to, like, I was malnourished. I was, like, changing and feeling confident. And ballet was bringing out so much in me that was hidden before.

• 22:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Tell me more.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  I mean, I was, like, thinking critically about things in a way that I hadn't before. I was just kind of, like, again, existing and just trying to get by. I mean, in school, it was like the scariest thing for a teacher to call on me and for me to read out loud. And I was performing on stages. And I was like, I had an opinion about things and was being asked questions and asked what I thought about things. Like, my mom didn't have time for any of that. And so, I think it was...

• 23:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You're saying, like, at the table with Cindy? Like, just questions were being asked?

• 23:30Speaker 01

  I mean, the most simple things.

• 23:32Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, like what?

• 23:33Speaker 01

  How was your day? What did you do at school today? What do you think about that? What do you think about this ballet? Which role would you want to perform? How would you approach performing this role in the character? Like, things were literally... I was just like this mute child, living amongst my siblings. And there was none of that interaction. Like, we were fending for ourselves. We would, you know, scrounge for coins in the couch and, like, eat a cup of noodles. And we weren't eating at a table. It was just a completely different dynamic than I'd ever experienced. And I grew immensely in a very short amount of time. And I think that was really hard for my mom to see.

• 24:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  First of all, thank you for just sharing all that. And then, so early, Cindy really saw something in you.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, immediately. I mean, she took my leg. She put it up to my ear. And she's like, "You can hold it there. And you're strong, your muscles are strong, like, the proportions of your body." Like, everything kind of was like exactly what you needed to be in ballet, except for your skin color, which she didn't tell me at the time. But would eventually become an issue.

• 24:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. I always think we communicate so much to our kids through our questions. And it's not about more questions, because I actually think, parents listening here, right, probably tend to, in general, ask a lot of questions. But, you know, I think about moments in my own childhood, it just... I had a lot of questions, unlike you. But, "How did you do on this test? What did this person get? What did this person do?" And that, I was like, "Ooh."

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right? But what you're saying is, someone wondering what you thought about something, someone being interested in your day, someone asking you what part you'd want, all comes from the assumption that you have interesting thoughts inside of you and stories from your day worth telling. And it sounds like for both understandable reasons, but still things that impacted you before living there, like, that just... that mirror was never held up. You mentioned, but we didn't get into it yet. It wasn't just an up and to the right path, kind of. You said, "I had, kind of, the perfect constitution, the perfect body."

• 25:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And then you mentioned, "Oh, except for my skin color." So, when did that part start to... I don't know, when did it become obvious to you, "Oh, like, the world is not taking me in in the same way? Or is there a place for me?"

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so interesting, because I remember... So, my teacher, she would... Again, she was, like, pouring into me in every way possible. And I remember she read from... I don't remember what the book was. It was one of the ballerinas that were trained under George Balanchine, who was the founder of the New York City Ballet. And he kind of created his own ideal of what a ballerina should look like. And that kind of, like, changed the trajectory of, like, ballerinas' bodies in that time. It was more, like, geared towards, like, "Oh, what do, like, the supermodels look like in this time? Like, in the 60s and in the 70s, like Twiggy?" Anyways, he kind of coined, like, "This is what an ideal ballerina should look like."

• 26:46Speaker 01

  And he was, like, you know, "Long legs and long feet and long arms and a tiny head and a long neck and skin the color of a freshly peeled apple." And my teacher told me all of those attributes, except for the apple part. And, you know, in my mind, I'm like, "I belong here. This is the space I'm supposed to be in." And so, she always kind of... She blocked a lot of things. And she... But she created this very safe environment where I felt like I deserved and I belong in this world. And it wasn't until I would go off and, you know, into the real world and I joined American Ballet Theater. And then, I'm in a company of over 90 dancers, and I'm the only black woman. And I'm the only black woman for the first decade of my career.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  And I think I was aware of it in some ways, because I'd go away to summer programs and I would be the only black girl in my class. But it wasn't something I ever felt like I was being excluded. And I was always being given full scholarships and told I was a prodigy and given opportunity to. But once I got into a professional company, it was kind of like, "Yeah, you're all of those things and you're good enough to get in. But, like, we don't know if you're good enough to actually, like, be a part of this legacy and history in terms of, like, being a soloist or being a principal dancer." And I guess it was, like, in that time that I wasn't being given the opportunity to perform the classical works, which are like the epitome.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Like, you have to look a certain way, you know, to be a part of what they call the white ballets, with Swan Lake and La Vie a Dare and the second act where you have fair skin and everyone looks the same and you're supposed to look otherworldly. And I was being asked to paint my skin a lighter color to fit in with the rest of the corps de ballet. I mean, there was so much going on that was just like, "This is wrong and this doesn't feel right. I no longer feel like this is the world I'm supposed to be a part of."

• 28:44Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You're being asked to paint your skin a lighter color? Just take me to that.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  I mean, I remember specifically, I remember being a young member of the corps de ballet. And we were on tour in, like, Cleveland or Detroit or somewhere like that. I remember it being really cold. And I'm doing, I think, the ballet Giselle. And then, you know, I guess one of the makeup artists comes in with, like, a little container of pancake, which is what they used to, you know, the makeup they used for performing. And it was, I don't know, your color. And it's like, oh, just pass this around. Everyone has to put this on. And I'm like, oh, no, this isn't. I look like I'm ashy, like I need lotion. Like if I put this on and they're like, no, no, no. Everyone wears this color.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Everyone has to wear this color. I just remember feeling so invisible. But yet so visible and just like crushed my soul. Where it was just like, oh, I'm not supposed to be a part of this. And just having this like, this battle within myself of like, whether or not this is something I should be doing. You know, I wasn't having that conversation immediately like with my colleagues, but I was going home and I was like talking to my teacher, talking to, you know, I was very fortunate to have mentors in my life from a young age. And I think that definitely gave me a foundation of what,

• 30:15Speaker 01

  like the importance of having mentors in my life that I can have those tough conversations with. And I think that's why I am where I am because I was prepared in so many ways, like to have difficult conversations and advocate for myself with my artistic director, the artistic staff at pivotal moments in my career, where I brought up things that people were uncomfortable talking about. They didn't want to address or they didn't want to change. And I was being prepared in ways where I could actually articulate myself and actually talk about it and not just come in and be over emotional or angry, which, you know, I shouldn't have to be, you know, completely prepared. I mean, I was a 17 year old girl when I joined the company, you know?

• 31:00Speaker 01

  And so I just feel like I was being asked to be a lot more mature and prepared and ready as a black woman in the field.

• 31:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Was there a point it ever got better? Do you feel like you kept getting those messages?

• 31:15Speaker 01

  I mean, I got better at articulating myself. And again, going to the source, going to the artistic director and really sharing my experiences. And it made our relationship incredible. And he heard me in a different way. And there was still being, he was getting pushed back from other people in the artistic staff about me. And he decided to, you know, see my talent and give me opportunity. And so I'm very grateful for that, but I know that it was also me advocating for myself and having the support that I did. But yeah, I mean, I remember being in my early twenties and,

• 31:56Speaker 01

  and the company was filming Swan Lake for like television. I think it was being aired on PBS or something and it was made into like a VHS.

• 32:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  All the rage back then.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  And, and I overheard

• 32:13Speaker 01

  one of the ballet mistresses discussing whether or not I would be able to perform in the second act, which is the white act where all the white swans perform in unison. And, and I was removed for the filming. Even though I performed every night, I was first cast and I was removed from the filming of the second act. And, and that was like devastating, you know? And so there, he was getting pushed back in ways. But I would say like post being promoted to soloist, I really started to develop my voice and have the confidence to really say what I wanted. It was like, I think that, you know, working with Prince, it was like really,

• 32:57Speaker 01

  you know, one of my mentors, Raven Wilkinson, who was a black ballerina in the 1950s, one of the first to dance in a major ballet company coming into my life. And all of these people that made me again, go back to my roots and really feel like you do belong here. You are supposed to be doing this. You, you know, have a special place and moment to be able to change the trajectory of what ballet can be in the future. And so it became so much more meaningful and so much bigger than myself.

• 33:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, I guess, you know, Miss, you're making me think about like, I'm rethinking my own thought that as parents were our kids' mirrors, but in some ways as adults, we need other adults to be mirrors.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  I needed that.

• 33:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right? Like I see something in you, you can't currently access in yourself. And then we grow it and become it a little bit. You said the word confidence a lot of times. I think a lot about that word and how I think sometimes we get it wrong, what it really means or where it really comes from. But yeah, your journey around that, what now, sitting where you are now, what does confidence mean?

• 34:05Speaker 01

  It's quiet to me. I think it's like the opposite of what people think it is. And I think I've always, like, I knew that like as a young girl in ballet, not in my life.

• 34:15Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  But in ballet, it was like, this just makes sense. And it's, I'm working hard, but it's easy. It's effortless and it feels good. And I don't have to like shout to prove myself. I'm just doing what I do and it feels good and it comes through. And I think I went through a time where I wasn't, within the company, it felt like I wasn't being trusted and that people didn't believe maybe that I could, that I could rise to the occasion and be a soloist or, you know? And so then I started to like lose what that meant. And so it was like, I have to shout and prove myself.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  And it didn't feel good because I, I think I knew that wasn't what like inner confidence really was. I think by the time I was promoted to principal dancer, I didn't care about the title anymore.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  I was working so hard and I had, was given a lot of roles that I wanted. And I was like, well, this is what it's, this is what it's for. And I'm, I'm fulfilled and I'm doing the things I want to do. And so I didn't feel like I had to do it for anyone other than me.

• 35:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  And my community.

• 35:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. Okay. So I have to ask, as we pivot to you as a mom, one of the things, I think that comes up a lot as I talk, you know, to parent or in my practice, about people who are very aware, I want to do certain things differently than how I was raised. But at the same time, I don't want to, I want to over correct, right? Because there are elements, not all of it, but there are things that made me who I am.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right? So how do you think about that? Obviously you live a life now with Jackson that isn't chaotic, that is safe, right? Do you feel like you have this urge to kind of take your past? And I just, I have a hard time saying no, I just want to make everything happy for him. Or how does that, how does that play out?

• 36:14Speaker 01

  A little bit. I mean, I always thought when my husband and I have talked about, you know, for so long, like what it would be like when we had a kid. And I always thought I would be like the hard one and the disciplinary. And I definitely fall more towards the softer side. But I also know that that's not the, you know, it's finding a balance. And so I feel, I feel so grateful that my husband brings such grounding to me and that it truly is a partnership. You know, and something I learned from like watching my mom. And I think it's so fascinating to me that me and all of my siblings, you know, it's like you can either follow in that same path from what you've seen or you can go in the opposite direction.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  And we really have all gone in the opposite direction.

• 37:01Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  All of you?

• 37:01Speaker 01

  All of us. And, you know, the relationships that we're in, that we wanted to make sure that they were safe and all of these things before we moved on to marriage and kids. And so it's so interesting that it's all, it's been this way. But, you know, Ola and I were together for like 15 years, I think, before we got married. And

• 37:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  No shotgun wedding there.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  And it feels like a true partnership. And I think, and it's so important for me that Jackson sees that, that there's balance. And that, well, there's balance. Sometimes mommy's away and working and I'm the breadwinner. And sometimes daddy is, or whatever it may be, you know? And, and that's important for, for me, for him to see. You know, we have the means to put him in private schools and for him to have, you know, such a different life from us. And, and I, but I also am like, but I want him to struggle a bit. I want him to understand resilience, maybe not in the traumatic ways that I did. But, you know, it's just like, it's a constant that we're thinking about.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  And, and how do we bring that into his life? But in a different way than me and my husband experience. I mean, I think just most important for me, for him is the consistency and the stability and the love to always be there.

• 38:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  All right. I want to end with some rapid fire questions. You ready?

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 38:32Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Okay, warm up. First one, a belief you used to hold about yourself that turned out to be wrong.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, I think maybe it's like the introvert and the shyness. That people look at me now and they're like, what are you talking about? I don't know. Maybe there's another word for it. But I think that the belief that like I wasn't capable of being someone else.

• 38:56Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. And now that belief is what?

• 38:58Speaker 01

  That I'm strong and I'm powerful and I have a voice and I'm comfortable using it.

• 39:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Where you shine as a parent?

• 39:06Speaker 01

  I think the ways in which I physically am present and show love.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  You know, I didn't get a lot of that from like parental figures in my life. And I think that that's something that it's so amazing to see it reflected back, like through Jackson and the ways that he is in his relationships. And that I feel like so proud that I am that way with him and that he feels it and that he wants to be open and sensitive and vulnerable.

• 39:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hardest part of parenting for you?

• 39:40Speaker 01

  I think dealing with the like monster you're creating. You know, like if we're good and bad, like you, you give, you pour into them and they become, they're becoming these like confident little beings. And then they feel empowered to like do and say so much. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no, not yet.

• 40:02Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yep. That'll help you later, but please be a little more compliant.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:05Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Just a little, 100%. Okay, last question. When Jackson's, I don't know, 30, 40, and someone just says, like, hey, what was your mom like? When you were younger, how do you hope he answers that?

• 40:17Speaker 01

  I hope he says happy and loving.

• 40:20Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Beautiful. Thank you. This has been, I've learned so much. I've, I just really appreciate your openness and your being here. Thank you.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. What a pleasure.

• 40:37Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  There are so many things I'll be left with after that conversation. The thing that happens to be loudest for me in my brain right now are kind of the word improv and this thing Misty said toward the beginning, freedom within the form.

• 40:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I think those two things come into play all the time in parenting. And you know, some of my favorite moments when I meet a parent on the street or when I'm talking to a member who's been in the Good Inside app for a while is they'll say something to me like this, you know, Dr. Becky, the whole like close your eyes hack you talk about sometimes, I took it, but honestly, it doesn't really work for me. I have like a different version I do in my house, almost as if they're apologizing. I get so lit up inside when I hear this, oh, tell me, I love hearing about what I tell you that doesn't work. But kind of how you take something about it that does hit your heart and then try your own, that's improv, that's freedom within the form. And so I guess I just want to end today's episode, especially if you've been

• 41:37Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  kind of a Good Inside listener for a while, definitely if you're a Good Inside member, because that tells me you kind of did what Misty said, you've kind of laid the foundation. I love hearing your stories of improv, I love hearing the random thing you did at bedtime that was kind of funny, but felt right and worked. Or the way you kind of use play in something that seemed ridiculous to get out the door, or the thing that you've heard from me that you threw out the window and you said, nope, not for me, I'm going to do this instead. Those moments just feel so alive, just like kind of going to an improv show does. And so please share them. You could email us, [email protected]. You could drop a comment if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify. But those stories always inspire me and help me do a little kind of better improv in my own home.

• 42:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So bring it on. All right, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside.

• 42:40Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'll see you soon.

• 42:49Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 43:31Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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