Men Beyond Utility with Dr. John Delony

In this episode of Good Inside, Dr. Becky talks with bestselling author and mental health expert Dr. John Delony about the utility trap — the pressure many men feel to always be useful, fix problems, and provide solutions, often at the expense of emotional connection. John shares his own experiences as a dad learning to step out of “fix-it mode” and into emotional presence, vulnerability, and attunement. If you’ve ever felt stuck in the role of provider or problem-solver, or you’re parenting with someone who is, this conversation is a powerful invitation to redefine what it really means to show up.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  After my first baby was born, I treated my own recovery like a complete afterthought. If the baby needed something, I showed up immediately. If I needed something, well, it would wait. But research shows that when parents have the support they need, they're better able to care for their children. Taking care of yourself isn't separate from parenting. It's a huge part of parenting. That's why I love Frida's mission to prepare women for the realities of pregnancy, postpartum, recovery, and feeding. Frida creates solutions for the moments that often catch moms off guard. The Postpartum Essentials Kit and Breastfeeding Survival Kit help women feel more prepared for those early weeks of motherhood. Be motherhood prepared and shop Frida at Amazon, Target, and Walmart today.

• 0:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So I'm on my book tour and this dad comes up to me after and he said, I just have to share the story. He goes, you were kind of like in my head this morning, that tell me more. He goes, it was this morning, I was trying to get my son out the door to school and he was being difficult, right? He was delaying, wouldn't get his shoes on. And he's like, I really could see the way my dad like would have responded to me. I don't know if for sure it's a memory, but I could have guessed, what's wrong with you? You're gonna make me late to work. Let's go. A lot of yelling. I would have felt scared. He's like, instead, I heard something you shared, you know, a few times that you could do. And I heard myself then say this to my son that what

• 1:27Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I ended up saying was, you know, when I was young, I also used to have some mornings when I didn't want to go to school. And he's like, that's all I said. And I didn't expect it to be magical in the moment, even though I kind of knew it would feel good just to relate to him instead of yell at him. And he's like, and it turned out, he then just wanted to hear about when I was four and five and how I didn't like to go to school as he happily put on his shoes and got into the car and we finally got to school on time. And there was just so much in this in terms of what fatherhood looks like. Yelling, punishing, frustration, connection,

• 2:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  presence, storytelling. And as I knew you were coming in today, I just, I couldn't help but think that I wanted your kind of perspective on how you think about fatherhood, your journey, what your dad was like, just all of it in terms of that kind of arc.

• 2:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I don't know about you, but by the time September rolls around, I am ready for cozy season. That's when I start thinking about Thanksgiving plans and travel that allows me to spend quality time with my family. I'm thinking board games, changing leaves, maybe even a living room with a fireplace where we can read our books together. Maybe you're the kind of family that loves an adventure and wants a cabin in the mountains somewhere. Or maybe you're dreading the end of summer and need to look forward to staying at a home on the beach with a view of the ocean. Or maybe you love to cook, so you want to stay in a home with your dream kitchen. Wherever your travel plans take you, it's the perfect time to get a little reset together as a family before the holiday season and craziness begins. But here's something you may not have considered. If you're planning to go

• 3:15Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  away this year, leaving your own space empty, you can list it on Airbnb while you're away to give another family some quality time in a home away from home. You get to make use of your space and you can earn some extra income to put toward your family's future travel plans. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com/host.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  I mean, I was raised, my dad was a homicide detective and a SWAT hostage negotiator in Houston, Texas, right? So all of the Texas tropes were there, right? And he was raised by a World War II vet, who was raised by a man whose dad died when he was 10. So like now that I'm older, I can look back and say, I'm doing things very, very different. And I can look back with compassion and say, oh, this is a guy that would open up his toolkit, and there's only a couple of tools in there. And yet he built a house with only one or two tools. And yet, it's my job now if I want things to be different, to have more

• 4:22Speaker 01

  tools in that toolkit. And then saying, what's the next right move? And I don't think there's a script for dads right now. Yeah.

• 4:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Was there ever a time in your fatherhood journey where you had these worries? I think I hear from dads, a lot of worries, like, okay, I'm relating to my kids' feelings, like, the world's not gonna do that for them, the world isn't gonna care, the world isn't gonna sit on their bed, like, someone has to toughen these kids up, someone has to prepare them for the world. And so, given you were not raised by a dad, who was like, sitting on your bed, okay, and that's where you are now. And so, have those worries been part of your own kind of journey?

• 4:59Speaker 01

  I mean, they've been immobilizing at times. And I got there in a strange place, and this is a weird journey here. So, I was a hyperkid, which, I'm on the back end of a generation of young boys that just been pathologized, just for being who you are since we were little kids. And so, I've just known, since I was a little boy, that something wrong with me. And then, as I got older, to see how the world works, and spending years in grad school, I realized, I got another narrative, which is, every problem in the world is because of you, right? And so, I also learned, I can just opt out. And that's hard, right? But also, you can't opt out. So, it's been this, I don't know

• 5:44Speaker 01

  how to do this thing right. And then, my son is very much, I say this lovingly, is very much the golden retriever, like, it's okay, Dad. And I've said, it's not your job to make me okay, right? But that was hard, realizing he's trying to solve it for me. Like, it's okay, it's okay, it's okay.

• 5:59Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What's the it, self?

• 6:01Speaker 01

  When I get frustrated, when I want something a certain way, when, even now that I'm trying to, now that he's getting older, to talk through, I really had high hopes for this tour that I went on. And the tickets didn't sell, I wanted them too, at these two venues, but they did at this, but not these two. And he's like, man, that's okay, Dad. And I said, hold on, that's not your job to fix for me. I appreciate the, so, yeah, it's been tough, tough, tough. Here's the strange analogy. So, I got into mixed martial arts a lot, in my mid twenties, and I was with these pro fighters, and what, and there was just coming out of a season, when these MMA fighters, that were professionals, they didn't have any practice. They would just get in the gym every day, and beat each other up. They would just fight. And then, they would go do their matches at the end of the week, or do their events.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  And what we started to see over time was, oh, just getting in a room and punching and kicking each other as hard as you possibly can makes you less effective over time. And so now, now it's just kind of common knowledge. You don't really punch or kick until someone, until you have signed a contract and you're in a ring. Now we're going to work on skills. We're going to like beating you up, hitting somebody, thinking you're making them tougher. You're not. And so it's been an art for me, like, oh, yelling and screaming doesn't solve this problem. My kids learn adaptive strategies on not how to respond well, but how to not get in trouble with that. And that doesn't help them in the long term. And so my goal has then shifted and I've got a, my wife was Dr. Delony long before

• 7:32Speaker 01

  me. She's, she's way smarter than me, but this, who do I want them to become? And 99.9% of the challenges I was watching them experience in our home was me centric. I had to go to sit with a therapist and say, I'm not okay. And these kids are absorbing this. And so if I go do the work for myself and I learn some new skills, then I'm giving them a map on how to work in the real world.

• 7:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But what you're saying, and I think this parallel is really important, kind of quote the real world. When my kid is in a job, that's like the ring.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Right, that's right.

• 8:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I think you, me, this made up mom or dad we're thinking of who's saying, my kid's got to be prepared for the real world. I feel like we look at each other and be like, absolutely.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  We are on the same page.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 8:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You're right. Their boss will not sit down and say, you know, oh, I really just care about your feelings. That's not their therapist. That's their boss. We agree. But I think what you're saying in terms of that metaphor is the best way to prepare a fighter to be super tough in the ring is not just kind of doing harsh things to them in practice. Like, that's actually not the road. Or I think another way I think of it is we all want our kids to swim in the ocean. But we do start in a training pool.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  You don't throw them off the

• 8:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You don't start in the ocean.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Off an oil rig and say, get back to shore, right?

• 8:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  It's madness.

• 8:56Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And nobody says when you're in a, I think it's interesting, when you're in a training pool, Becky, like you're kind of coddling your kid. If you want them to swim in the ocean, you shouldn't start in a training pool. We'd say, no, no, if you want them to swim in the ocean, start in a training pool so they can learn skills, be in increasingly more difficult situations. And then one day when they're in an ocean, they'll be strong enough to swim.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  And there's the other side to that. When we did swim lessons with my son the first time, when he was a little kid, to graduate, the instructor chunked them into the pool as though they fell off something. And to pass, they had to swim back. And there's a big sign that said, moms and dads, we know what we're doing. If this is, if you can't handle this, they're, they're gonna be fine. If y'all can't handle this, then this isn't the swimming group for y'all. And they took my kid by an arm and a leg and threw him in. And I knew it was coming and I went, oh, well, one, I want to shove this high school kid that just threw my kid, I want to shove you in the water. And, oh, this is teaching him how to swim. And he swam back and he got up and was just like, I did it. You know what I mean? And I was like, oh, that's what that is.

• 10:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right. Now, you said something else that I just want to double click on. I think about how we want to prepare our kids for the future. You want to be the type of dad who does that. But you're saying you also want to be the person that they, they come to or they talk to. So, how do, how do you think about those? How do those things go together? Do they ever feel in opposition? How have you reconciled your ability to be there for them in their hard moments? And seeing that as a way of maybe even preparing them for the real world?

• 10:27Speaker 01

  So every, like I had, I had parenting 1.0 and then this one moment shifted. So a cool thing, I was done with graduate school. I was all done and I had my big fancy job. And what I was seeing was the students that were coming to me at the university level. They had stopped asking, what am I going to be when I grow up? Can you write me a letter? It was all starting to shift in 2010, 11, 12, too. I don't know if I want to be alive anymore. I've got all these diagnostics. There's something wrong. I'm medicated. Like, it was a mess. And so I went back to grad school because I didn't know what I was doing. And my marriage is falling apart and my friends marriages are falling like I didn't know. I was like, what was happening here? And so I got to go back, but I had to go be an intern again. And there was this extraordinary psychologist, Dr. Michael Gomez, who I still,

• 11:11Speaker 01

  he's, he was a savant for me, really important. But I remember we were working with traumatized kids and we were going from room to room. And this young kid that we were working with, and you know, when you're doing forensic stuff, you, they talk and play, right? So we were playing a game where this kid was teaching us how to roll a joint, trying to figure out what he had seen at his house. And we went to this next room and I said, he was, this kid was saying some wild things about women. He was like five or six. And it was just kind of throwaway stuff, but I was, I was shocked. And we went from room to room. And I said, Doc, like, what are you supposed to say to a kid to teach him to respect women? Well, I had a three year old little boy, right? So I had a vested interest in this.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  And he just laughed. And he's like, you say whatever you want. They don't listen to you. If you want your kids to respect women, it's important for them to see it, which meant, oh, here we go. Now I gotta get a group of men that are older than me that I can sit down who are wiser than me. And I gotta get a gang. And then I gotta go see a therapist because I got some crap I gotta work out.

• 12:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  And I don't know that there's a shortcut to that.

• 12:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I think that part really matters that these things don't happen overnight. Like, you and I have talked about this before, where you don't do all your parenting in like a 30 or 60 second lecture. Like, that would be nice, right? Like, respect women, or you have to be tough when things don't go your way, as if something I'm gonna say in one or two minutes is like my kids, like, oh, it's really helpful. Now that will stick with me forever.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  I really wanted Snapchat, Dad, but I see your.

• 12:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right. I see your point. And you're right. I should stay calm when things don't go my way. No, they, they're watching us.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Every second.

• 12:51Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  They're watching us. And, and so much then of this kind of, I just want to double click on this, like toughness, like being tough, being able to handle hard things, being able to handle when something doesn't go your way, being able to take accountability when you've maybe acted out, that these aren't lectures. These are behaviors we have to model.

• 13:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I don't know about you, but by the time September rolls around, I am ready for cozy season. That's when I start thinking about Thanksgiving plans and travel that allows me to spend quality time with my family. I'm thinking board games, changing leaves, maybe even a living room with a fireplace where we can read our books together. Maybe you're the kind of family that loves an adventure and wants a cabin in the mountains somewhere. Or maybe you're dreading the end of summer and need to look forward to staying at a home on the beach with a view of the ocean. Or maybe you love to cook, so you want to stay in a home with your dream kitchen. Wherever your travel plans take you, it's the perfect time to get a little reset together as a family before the holiday season and craziness begins. But here's something you may not have considered. If you're planning to go away this year, leaving your own space empty, you can list

• 14:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  it on Airbnb while you're away to give another family some quality time in a home away from home. You get to make use of your space and you can earn some extra income to put toward your family's future travel plans. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com/host.

• 14:27Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Saying sorry, saying I was wrong. Do you feel like dads have a harder time with that? Do you feel like that's a sticking point?

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think the, the implicit message I think I've, I've received from all environments, from growing up to professional is, I have one value in the world and it's utility. Do you have the right answer or can you fix this thing? Right? And it was 10 years into marriage and my wife's like, I don't need you to fix this. I just need you to sit here. And it was another five years before I realized, oh, she didn't love me for my answer. She just loved me because of, for me. And then I had to go look in the mirror and be like, you don't even like yourself. How can she like you? Right? And so I think there's this idea that if my only value is in the answers I give, then

• 15:17Speaker 01

  that means being wrong is an existential threat. I don't, I don't have a psychology for that. I can't be wrong. I have to be right. And there's no, there's no public modeling of, I was wrong on this. Right? There's just a double down and we're going to ride the sucker to the bottom of the ocean.

• 15:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Or I find, instead of just even a double down, blame.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  That's the, that's the only thing I've got is complaining or blaming when I feel shamed or, or swinging, just throwing punches. Or I guess the fourth would be checking out.

• 15:45Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. But let's go through some scenarios because I think this is true in marriages with kids. This idea of my value is fixing or being right versus in the same scenario. Can I kind of think about myself in a new role where my value is being present? Yeah. Right. Okay. So you have a wife, let's say she comes home and she's just really upset that she wasn't invited. She saw some friends out to lunch and she's like, oh man, like I wasn't invited to that thing. What do you think that first mindset would sound like in terms of fix, make better? What, what do you say back from that mindset?

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Well, old John would do one of two things. Dude, I'm gonna call her, I'm gonna call her husband and be like, what's wrong with your wife, dude? Like, what's, what's the deal here? There are friends. That's ridiculous. Right? Um, which in a, in a male world, there's some value to, I'll go hit that guy. Right? Like that is a shoulder to shoulder. I'll prove I'm on your team.

• 16:41Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Like, I'll go get, I'll go spend a night in jail if you'll bail me out. Like, right? That's, that's the old like code.

• 16:47Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Like brotherhood.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  That's it. Right? And so there is this sense of, I'll go solve this. And the other thing is I would have lectured her on what she should have said or what she should say next. You need to text them and let them, I don't need that from you. These are my friends. Right? And so then I have to realize, oh, she's telling me because I'm a safe, to use your word, that has made a huge impact in my, in my personal home. She needs a sturdy place, but it's, it's coming together in that way. And I've had to accept she doesn't even say anything. She needs me to be here. And so I think those old, um, I don't say old, the,

• 17:27Speaker 01

  the, the paternalistic tropes, providing and protecting, I actually think those still work, except.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  She may not need my money. She may need me to provide a safe space, or she may need me to protect her spirit. She may need to protect this little room right here so she can come in and just be really upset that her friends didn't invite her out. And that's different than fist fighting.

• 17:53Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Completely. And just, and I think sometimes if we do have words in those moments, just for anyone listening where this is new, they feel remarkably unsophisticated because I think you named exactly what someone would do. I'm gonna go hurt the other person, or I'm gonna tell you how you could avoid this next time, right? Versus when you're really saying, kind of, okay, my value is just my presence. It's not fixing, it's support, not solutions. The words that come out are something like, oh, that stinks.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  There's two magic words in my house. That sucks.

• 18:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's it. That's it. And then you have to say to yourself, because I think a lot of times where we go next is, and then what? I think whenever you say, and then what? You're like, no, no, I just did the thing.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 18:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Just count to thirty in my head, call it a win, and move on. Okay, what about with your kids? So let's say your kid comes home and they're really upset that they didn't make the soccer team. What is like old John, or kind of what do you think the kind of first instinct might be? If instinct is just a repetition of our past.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  My first job out of college was, I was a high school basketball and track coach. So I, I think most parents, not most, many parents' instinct would be, I'm gonna call the coach. I know enough that that's not, that's futile. I wouldn't do that. But my first would be, well, what'd you do? Did you not, or did you hustle everywhere? Like, and, or maybe the second one would be is, I failed you. I should have put you in that camp. I should have let you join this other team. I should have, I should have, I should have. Instead of just saying, that's the worst. That's the worst.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  And just sitting in that.

• 19:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Just, I want us to sit in that for a second because I think again, it's so new. I think for moms and dads, but I think that is new for dads, that to say, sitting next to my kid. I didn't make the team. Oh, that's the worst.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  It's the worst. And if, to use the old language, I am protecting you. I am providing for you, but I'm doing it differently. All right. I'm sitting with you. And you can't rattle me, but I'll be heartbroken with you. And then maybe 15 years from now, if the, your person you're engaged to breaks up with you,

• 20:13Speaker 01

  it'll be encoded in your nervous system. I'm gonna go home and my dad will just go fishing with me. He won't try to solve it. He'll just, he'll get the rods and he'll meet me out somewhere.

• 20:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I think that, that's so, that's so powerful to make that connection because you're right. When our kids are older, there's no quote, coach to call. Again, I'm not going to call my kid's workplace in their 20s or something like, you didn't get my son a promotion. I'm sure it does. I'm sure, I actually know it does because in some ways we've unconsciously contracted with our kid for when you get upset, it is my job to make you happy. But then we shouldn't be surprised. Ironically, there is nothing like doing that or offering a quick fix. That makes for a very fragile snowflake kid because that kid when they get older is like, where is my dad who always calls the other coach and yells at him? Why are you not calling my boss and telling them I should get a raise? And you're like, oh my goodness.

• 21:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But that is actually going to make for a much more fragile young adult than a dad.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  I think in both ways. It's like running into the weight room and taking all the weight off the bar. Because it's heavy, hurts. And then they're not strong when they're 26. But the other thing I've learned, especially with my daughter, is when I run in to solve it, I am telling her, I always say behavior is a language. I am telling her, I don't think you can handle this.

• 21:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Exactly.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Which is the most disempowering thing I could tell my daughter. I don't, I don't think you have it in you to handle this or to deal with this. I will solve this for you. And I can't think of a worse message I want my daughter taking into the world.

• 21:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right. And I think there are these two extremes. There's like the fixing extreme, which is one communication of, I don't think you can handle this. I'll fix it for you. The other extreme is what I think a lot of us grew up with, which was just a lot of invalidation.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Screw your feelings. They don't matter.

• 22:03Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Basketball, schmascball, which ironically also doesn't set up a kid to cope because the only way we cope with hard situations when we're older is we've built up skills. And if our only skill is I'm not supposed to feel this way, well, that stops working as an adult because you're like, but my, I am feeling this way. And so now I'm just in bed or I'm just angry because I'm trying not to feel this.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Alcohol works. Eating works. Like the, all these different behaviors that can keep that stuff shoved down works.

• 22:36Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Temporarily.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Temporarily. That's right. That's right. That's right. Until it takes everything from you.

• 22:40Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's exactly right. You know, this is just making me, making me think about something where I feel like we have this obsession when we're upset with fault. We're either it's my fault for feeling this way, or it's your fault for making me feel this way. And when I hear you talk about fatherhood, there's a way to connect with your kids about not making basketball team. Where that feeling doesn't have to be anybody's fault.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  It just is. Did you even want to be on the team? Or did I somehow give you some message? Here is an important one. My son, um, like we're a baseball fanatics. I grew up in Houston, like the Astros were my team. I know they're not, you can't say that in New York. But um, my granddad loved baseball. He used to take me to games. My dad was a big baseball guy. I was a big baseball guy and my son, and I ran track in college for a few years. My son is excellent at running, but he always played baseball, always played baseball, always played baseball. And in sixth grade, he called a family meeting and I was like, already? He's like, can I talk to you guys? And he asked, um, hey, instead of playing baseball this spring, I was wondering if I could try out for the school play.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  And at a theater in college too, which was, which we were all excited, like absolutely, that's amazing. It's, it's great. And then he walked out of the room and I was like, ah, the longies play baseball. That's what we do. And I could not believe that it was in there. Similar, when I bought the, when we left Texas and moved to Nashville, I bought myself as a present, the Major League Baseball tickets so I could catch all the games. And Hank could always come say, Dad, let's go play baseball. And I'd say, let's just watch Astros. And then one day, not being manipulative, just, Dad, do you love me as much as you love them?

• 24:34Speaker 01

  It's off, right? Cause now he's starting to do the math. And he's just trying to figure out where he sits and it's not a move. But it was like, oh, all he wants is his old man to go outside and play.

• 24:45Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Wait, so that moment, you're sitting there and you're thinking, okay, but like, he should play baseball. Like, we play baseball in this family. Or even, I don't know, that's what boys do. They do. What, if, we like pause that moment, what, what do you say to yourself literally? What do you do to not just in some ways act that out on your kid?

• 25:08Speaker 01

  It's my job is to help them be the best version of themselves, not to make them Uncle Rico, like rerun my childhood for me, you know what I mean? And to not do the things that I didn't get to do, that's not my job. I think it's hard. I don't know any parent that doesn't stumble on that one, right? But at the same time, I want to be the best version of what he wants to be. And I have, I've worked at universities long enough to know, he can take sixth grade off. And if he hates the play, we'll be fine. You know what I mean? There's all this pressure that's just nonsense. So some of that's just, just knowing the downstream effect. But for me, it's knowing, I'm gonna be the best, I'm gonna be the best theater dad there is. You know what I mean?

• 25:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna, God help me, I'm gonna listen to that soundtrack on the way to work. And I might wanna drive my car into the median, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna listen, I'm gonna figure this out.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Because there's no greater, there's no greater cup of water in the desert than seeing your dad.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Smiling real big and cheering, you know what I mean? There's just nine, so.

• 26:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Nothing. But the thing that you're aware of that I think isn't said enough is that shift, it is hard.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  It's the worst.

• 26:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  To be like, but I love skiing, but I love lacrosse and my kid isn't doing that. It's important to acknowledge that loss. That's okay to feel sad, to feel like I had this image of my son as this baseball player and maybe that will happen, but maybe it doesn't. And it's okay to feel upset about that.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 26:40Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right? Because we can't manage feelings we're not aware of. And so if we get used to trying to avoid those feelings, we are just going to say the thing we don't actually want to say at night. Are you sure? Are you sure about the play? Are you sure? You know, real boys do baseball, whatever. And then even when we go to bed, we're like, why don't I say that? I don't even really, you know?

• 26:59Speaker 01

  I didn't think that, yeah. You said the magic word and it's an old glasterism like that we think in pictures, but we speak in words. And so often without even thinking about it, I have a picture of what life's going to look like. When we, we experienced between Hank and Josephine, one miscarriage, two miscarriages, a third miscarriage. And what I didn't know, I didn't know that the moment my wife got that positive test, just a picture emerges of what life's going to look like. And so you're not only grieving loss in that moment, you have to grieve a picture that

• 27:41Speaker 01

  isn't, there's not going to be a Thanksgiving table with this many people at that table.

• 27:45Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  And so without even thinking about it, I had a world that we are going to go to high school baseball games.

• 27:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  And that's what I'm grieving, not that my son is awesome and likes this other stuff, right? And not that, I, I know in the, the, the literal value, there's an ROI on young people who take a counseling course and take a theater course on their job downstream. There's an actual ROI. I know there's value there because you have to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and you have to work as a team and yada, yada, yada. I know all that's got benefit to it.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  But I had a picture that I didn't even mean to have. And I, I am constantly going back to, oh, I had a picture of what this was going to look like. I had a picture of what my marriage was going to look like. I had a picture of what my, me and my nine year old daughter were going to do. And she doesn't want to go sit in the deer blind with me in the, in the nowhere woods in Texas. She doesn't want to at all. She actually wants X, Y, and Z. And so then I get to be the adult and say, I'm going to agree that. I'm going to make me sad. And then, all right, dude, let's go do that thing.

• 28:54Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I think that's so important to say that first step, it has to happen.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  It's grief.

• 28:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's not happening.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Sadness.

• 28:59Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'm allowed to be upset. That doesn't make me any less of an adult, a man, a woman. Like, we do have these images and I think we don't even realize how many images we have of who our kid is going to be way before they're even born.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  It's a stream.

• 29:11Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I think even in those image or that, that movie, you know, else we don't picture? We don't picture how much effort it's going to take.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  No, just to get to that picture.

• 29:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  To do that, would it be the parent we want to be? Like, I'm connected to my kid. We're, okay, but now we're not at the baseball game together. I'm at the play and I'm talking to my kid about the play or I'm not talking about this thing I thought we were doing in Texas. Okay, so now that's new for me. Anything, okay, so it's effortful. That feels awkward. I'm trying to think of what question to ask my kid when we're at the dinner table. We don't picture effort.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  The heart, yeah.

• 29:45Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  We don't.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  But that discomfort, most men I know have two acceptable responses. Anger and blame or withdrawal. That's it. That's the only two things you're allowed to do is I'm just going to sit here and say nothing. Or I'm going to, you need to go tell, right? And to get angry about it. And so I think it's, I think it's, again, it's just putting new tools in the toolkit. Yeah, you're allowed to be angry. Like, you thought, you went to the tryouts, you thought your kid was the best. They weren't the best, but you thought they were. Be angry about that. And then from that moment on. Teach your kid that their feelings are valued. And when they start blaming the refs or blaming the coach, we're gonna stop.

• 30:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I could not, I'm just like, amen to that, because this is like one of my, I think that is the beginning of what we think of as kind of toxic masculinity, which is essentially a kid, because I rarely see it in girls on the basketball court, but I see, I do see it in boys a lot. Essentially, they're saying, I'm upset that I lost, but instead of feeling that, I turn it into, who did this to me?

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:51Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  The ref, if that player just passed me, passed me the ball, I would have made that three pointer. You're like, you've never made a three pointer in your life. You know, and I think there's such power of any parent, but definitely a dad. I'm saying, hold on a second.

• 31:05Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You're upset you lost the game? Yeah, that makes sense. Kind of helping a kid, not quote, making it their fault, but helping them own their feeling.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Well, and what I've noticed with my daughter, and this, again, I don't want to over generalize, but she has that same feeling, but she blames herself. And I, something's wrong with me. And it's this inward turn. And then sometimes for her, I'm like, that ref blew that one. They ref blew that call. It's not the end of the day, end of time. Let's go get ice cream.

• 31:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  But you're still good, like, you're still my kid. Like, I got picked to be your dad. And that's all good. And so it's a, it's, I don't know, every kid's different, but that's, that's what I see in my own house.

• 31:47Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Completely.

• 31:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I don't know about you, but by the time September rolls around, I am ready for cozy season. That's when I start thinking about Thanksgiving plans and travel that allows me to spend quality time with my family. I'm thinking board games, changing leaves, maybe even a living room with a fireplace where we can read our books together. Maybe you're the kind of family that loves an adventure and wants a cabin in the mountains somewhere. Or maybe you're dreading the end of summer and need to look forward to staying at a home on the beach with a view of the ocean. Or maybe you love to cook, so you want to stay in a home with your dream kitchen. Wherever your travel plans take you, it's the perfect time to get a little reset together as a family before the holiday season and craziness begins. But here's something you may not have considered. If you're planning to go away this year, leaving your own space empty,

• 32:36Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  you can list it on Airbnb while you're away to give another family some quality time in a home away from home. You get to make use of your space and you can earn some extra income to put toward your family's future travel plans. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com/host.

• 32:59Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  All right, I want to make this kind of end with some concrete things. What is one thing you tell any parent, but definitely dads listening who are like, okay, I do want to shift, right? And I get it. Being emotionally present is, he's going to make my kid more resilient. I'm bound to the framework, but like you said, I don't have the language. Like, where did you start? Is there a time of day? Is there something you've said? Is there a way you showed up? What is one small shift a parent can make?

• 33:29Speaker 01

  I think especially for dads, you have to have a group of men in your life that you can call and trust. When I was, I was an anxious wreck and that's a whole other podcast, but I wasn't well. And a buddy of mine drove a couple hours. He had just had a new kid and I had a new kid. I didn't find out until later that my wife had called him and said, I'm worried about John. And he stood out on my driveway in the Texas heat, listening to me ramble about how everything's coming down. And he's a finance guy, like same haircut since he was four, like loves spreadsheets. That's his, that's his love language. And he just said, what you're saying is not true. And I don't know what to tell you, but you need to go talk to somebody.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  And it was that stoic, quiet statement was the first time I thought, maybe it's me. Maybe I'm not all right. And my wife couldn't get through to me on that. My bosses couldn't get through to me on that. Every, the algorithm, everything I watch will just continue to tell me more about how it's somebody else's fault. Having a real person in my life that I trusted. And so both I've been real fortunate and it's been something that I curated for a long time is having a group of men in my life that I trust, that they'll say, we've been there and hang on. You think divorce is, it's not right now. Like, don't. Or, yeah, of course you're the problem here. Or, no, that doesn't sound right, man. Like, that doesn't sound right.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  But it's, it's, here's what I know and you know this, when I get activated, when I go to fight or flight, critical things off. I'm not. And so. To make an overly masculine generalization. Special forces guys don't go out without other people, without eyes in the sky, making sure they can see things they can't see. And so it's foolish of me to try to do something as important as parenting without other people saying, hey, I see you, you don't look well. I was in Fort Worth the other night and a couple of my old college buddies came out to a live event. And one of them said, you don't look good, man. You look tired. And I was like, you're right. Only he could say that.

• 35:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Need that.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  I had a therapist who she's, she's, my wife calls her the oracle. She's amazing, but. At one session, she said this. I answered her on a question she was asking me and she goes, you know what? I've been wondering. You are, you're smarter than me. And I was like, okay. And it was kind of funny. And she said, no, really? You've read more than I've read. You have an answer for everything. And so next time when you come in, you're going to say nothing and we're just going to sit. And I said, I'm so smart. I know that therapy, you talk. And she said this, she goes, oh, you have an answer for everything, but you can't sit in my presence and be okay with you.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  And that's when I was like, you can just leave, right? Right? And I couldn't. And so an exercise, this sounds super cheesy, was to look in my bathroom mirror and put my fist in my chest and say, I love this guy. And I couldn't say those words. I couldn't say those words. I could fight. I made good money. I have two PhD. Like I'd done all the stuff. I could not say that. And that was coming out of my, with my wife. It was coming out at work. It was coming out on my kids. It was coming out everywhere. And I don't know how it worked, but I know I track my heart rate and I know that my heart rate settled down. And I know that my reactivity settled down and I know my ability to learn new skills went way up.

• 36:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  When I stopped entering every room, expecting everybody didn't like me as much as I didn't like me.

• 36:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Well, I think the practice of looking yourself in the mirror, even saying nothing is.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Terrifying.

• 37:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Is a terrifying, vulnerable and very resilience building activity because you're kind of saying, this is me and just me being present. So if it's hard for you to be present with your kids and not fix, the answer probably starts by actually learning how to be present.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  And I had to go do some stuff too.

• 37:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Right? I wasn't perfect.

• 37:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Totally.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  I had to go make some changes.

• 37:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Okay, one last question. What do you want your kids to say about you when they're older, when they just go, oh, my dad?

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Loves me.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  And the second would be, oh, no, I can always go home. That's one of my core, core family values.

• 37:40Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. My dad loved me.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  My dad loved me.

• 37:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I can always go home.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 37:46Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I think that's so.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  What's yours?

• 37:51Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  My mom.

• 37:56Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  My mom really supported me as I figured out who I was. You know, the other day, someone said to me, oh, does it give you so much pain, the idea that your kids will be on a therapist couch one day complaining about you? And I really mean this, not, I would never want to deprive my kid of the opportunity of realizing all the things that I got wrong, or all the things that are not completely in line with how they want to do things as they get older. I think that's what it means to be an adult is looking back and hopefully it was feeling loved and feeling like you had somewhere to go, but also feeling like you were supported in being an individual person, which at the end of the day means separating from your family and realizing the things that are maybe different, you know, about you than, than from your family of origin. And so, but

• 38:41Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I think it's very similar. Yeah, I want my kids to feel loved. I want them to feel supported in who they are. And meaning if there's somewhere you can always go back to, you're kind of inherently saying, when I act out, when I do something that's different than the way they would have wanted me to, we still could stay connected.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  There's a place to go.

• 38:57Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  A hundred percent. Well, I hope this is not the last time we speak and thank you for all the, all the work you do to help really redefine what like emotionally connected, strong fatherhood looks like. And I'm excited about all the possibilities.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Appreciate it. And thank you for the work. Like it for real, it impacts my house. And you know this like I do, like you're talking to this phone or you're talking to this camera and the cameras go off and the lights go off and then you just go about your day and you wonder like, are we doing anything? You know, it's kind of like disorienting. When you're, when you're like speaking at a live event, you can hear people laugh. But yeah, it's disorienting. Just know that like in my house, when I'm out of tools, it's such a good resource. So thank you for that.

• 39:47Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You know, parents carry a lot. In fact, data show that most parents spend every waking hour caring for someone else. So if you feel exhausted and stretched thin, you're not alone, and that makes sense. And look, I also know from experience what a relief it is to find caregiving support. Finding a babysitter you trust and your kids will have fun with, that makes it so much easier to go back to work, or travel, or yeah, even go on one day with your partner. Care.com makes it easier to find trusted, background-checked caregivers with search and hiring tools you won't find on social media. Whether you need full-time help, or just part-time help with morning drop-off, or after-school care, Care.com can

• 40:32Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  help you find nannies, sitters, and daycares. And you can find the expertise that matters to you. Think homework help, CPR training, or experience with multiple kids. And if you're considering daycare, you can search, compare, and request tours, and could even get a discount on daycare tuition as a Care.com member. If you need more support, Care.com can help. For a limited time, you can use the code BECKY35 to save 35% on a Care.com membership. When it's not you, it's Care.com.