Lena Waithe

Lena Waithe is always cool. Amy hangs with the 'Chi' creator and 'Cats: The Jellicle Ball' producer and talks about the best part of working at Blockbuster, falling in love with Prince, and why everyone should be watching 'Couples Therapy. Host: Amy PoehlerGuests: Bill Rauch, Zhailon Levingston, and Lena WaitheExecutive Producers: Bill Simmons, Amy Poehler, and Jenna Weiss-BermanFor Paper Kite Productions: Executive producer Jenna Weiss-Berman, coordinator Sam Green, and supervising producer Joel LovellFor The Ringer: Supervising producers Juliet Litman, Sean Fennessey, and Mallory Rubin; video producers Jack Wilson, Belle Roman, and Aleya Zenieris; lighting director Caroline Jannace; audio producer Kaya McMullen; social producer Bridget Geerlings; video editor Drew van Steenbergen; and bookers Kat Spillane and Paige GarbariniOriginal Music: Amy Miles Buy a car online on Autotrader. Really. You can search through tons of cars, compare prices, check out financing and trade-in options, all from your couch, your office, wherever, and if you want to start online but still hit the dealership for a test drive, you can do that too on Autotrader.com/buy-online. This episode is brought to you by Subaru. Love goes the extra mile in the Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid and Subaru Forester Hybrid. Visit https://subaru.com/hybrid to learn more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:38Speaker 00

  Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Good Hang. We are very excited about our guest today. It is Lena Waithe, writer, producer, actor. Lena does so many things so well, and she's the coolest. And we're going to get into how cool she is today. We're going to get into the way she likes to work. We're going to talk about our love of Chicago. We're going to talk about Blockbuster, a place where you had to go and rent videos in person. We're going to talk about the fact that she is the first Black woman to ever win a primetime Emmy in comedy writing. We're going to talk about couples therapy. We're going to get into it. But before we do that, we always have this section of the show where we speak to somebody

• 1:20Speaker 00

  who knows our guest, who wants to speak well behind their back and give me some questions to ask. And joining me are the two directors, Tony, award-winning directors of Cats: Jellicle Ball, the show that is out on Broadway as we speak and that Lena is a producer on. And so let's hear from Jalen Levinston and Bill Rauch. Gentlemen, hello.

• 1:51Speaker 00

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• 2:51Speaker 00

  Hi, Bill. Hi, Jalen. Nice to meet you. By the way, congratulations, Tony, winners.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  It did happen.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  Before we talk about our guest, just talk me through The Evening of the Tonys, which is my absolute favorite award show.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was very surreal. I was there with my mother and my partner. And me and Bill sat by each other. And we had to keep playing musical chairs because we, Bill had family, I had family. We wanted to like, share the time that we sat by them during the award show.

• 3:30Speaker 00

  Wait, hold on. Let's, I'm going to pause right there. You guys were making sure that you gave everyone in your family enough time?

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Well, yeah.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  We need to talk. This is why you can't bring family to award shows. Well, for those people that haven't had the pleasure of coming to Broadway and seeing Jellicle Ball, can you just explain what it is?

• 3:51Speaker 02

  It is Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical Cats, set in the ballroom scene that grew out of Harlem. And so our cats are not cats, they're human beings, competing in a competitive ball. And I have never been part of a project in my whole life that more people love. Like, whatever your age, whatever your relationship to ballroom, whatever your relationship to Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical, people who love it, people who think they hate it. Everybody has a, just, an overwhelmingly positive experience at the Jellicle Ball.

• 4:32Speaker 00

  And Jalen, can you explain, when you say ballroom, what that means?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so ballroom is an underground queer culture that really started in New York around 1970, 71, 72. And really, the main architect at the very beginning was a powerful, beautiful woman named Crystal LeBeja, who was a trans woman of color, who had felt rejected by the queer pageant scene and left that scene to start what we know to be ballroom. And when I say ballroom is a culture, much like hip hop, it has multiple elements. So ballroom is both an artistic way of expressing oneself.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  It is competition, it is Vogue, it is all of those kind of aesthetic things that we understand about the craft. But it's also a chosen family structure that's been organized since 1972. And this structure is centered around the house and the house mother and the house father. And really springs out of a need for young queer kids who needed family at a very specific point, and they are coming to themselves, to catch them when maybe their biological families were not able to do so.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  It's such a great transition into Lena Waithe, because her work and her life is kind of a living example of sharing herself with the world, trying to figure out how to mentor other people, try to make people feel seen and feel included. And, you know, as a Black queer woman, she is like, breaking barriers everywhere she goes. She's the first here, she's the first there. She's like, supporting and giving her voice to all different kinds of projects. And she is a producer on your show.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  How did that come to be?

• 6:28Speaker 02

  She saw it when we did it downtown. She saw the Off-Broadway production, and she flipped over it. And she brought Cynthia Erivo to see it. And she just let us know, if this thing can happen on Broadway, I want to be part of it. I want to be part of making it happen. And she was present from one of our first rehearsals in the rehearsal room, right on through previews, right on through the run. She's been an actively engaged producer in a beautiful way.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  What does a producer on Broadway need to do?

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Well, they need to find us some money.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  That's a big part of it. The art of the commerce. But apart from that, also Lena is, you know, a public figure with a platform and is able to shepherd eyes to issues that she really cares about. And I know one of the things that Lena really cares about in this season of her life is like, how to get people off their phones and into a room together. And so I'm glad that Cats is a show that she feels is within that mission. I know she's starting to do a lot of theater work herself. But yeah, letting people know that this kind of getting up out of your couch, leaving

• 7:49Speaker 01

  your house, and being in a room with strangers, as weird as that kink is, might be the only way for us to make it through the next few years.

• 8:00Speaker 00

  I feel like New York is often like, leading by example, how it feels to be among a lot of people, right? New York is always bustling. And even just the recent Knicks win is a great example of watching people, you know, literally rub shoulders and enjoy something together.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  You can get the high from the Knicks winning every day at Cats: Jellicle Ball.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  It is that exciting, it is that thrilling. It builds community in that direct way.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Quite untrue.

• 8:36Speaker 00

  And what is she, what's Lena like as a person? Because I like to speak well behind people's back, and I've found Lena to be really, really like, charming, curious, kind. What's it been like to get to know her? What kind of person is she?

• 8:51Speaker 01

  She's so dope. She's so cool.

• 8:53Speaker 00

  And this is the thing I'm a little worried about. She's so cool.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, she is. That is true.

• 9:00Speaker 00

  Like, I already put on my outfit today, and I looked, just before I came in, I looked in the mirror and I went, oh, Jesus Christ. You cannot beat, you can't beat, she's just so cool.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  I know, but you're cool, too.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, I'm not fishing, but thank you.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  She's also, she's so at ease with herself that it puts you at ease. So it's just be so fun to hang out with her.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  So we have a thing here where we ask to get a question for our guest. And you guys have been working with Lena, you know her professionally. We're going to get into a bunch of different things that she does. But is there anything that you think I should ask her? Big, small, silly, important, that you'd want to hear her talk about?

• 9:45Speaker 01

  When did you first know in your soul that you were an artist?

• 9:48Speaker 00

  Great. It's such a theater question.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:52Speaker 00

  That is such a theater question. I love it. Well, let's all get in a circle. Let's ask each other this. Direct eye contact.

• 9:59Speaker 02

  While we give each other backroads in the circle.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  Yep, love it.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  One is like, I've also seen Lena a lot on the dance floor. And, you know, however cool she is in life, she is 100 times cooler on the dance floor. And I'm always like, trying to think about how to maintain coolness on the dance floor. And I would ask her, who does she like to see on the dance floor? Like, when she goes out, she's like, oh, that person's here. I know the party, the dancing is going to be on 10. So I'd be curious to know what that list is for her.

• 10:36Speaker 00

  Oh, these are incredible questions. You guys are such good directors.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  Well, thank you guys so much for this time. I know Lena will be thrilled that we talked, and it means a lot. Congratulations again on your success and on your artistry and the great work that you do and the way that you're putting, like you said, so much joy into the world.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Rubber glue back to you, Amy. You're doing really joyful work, and we need this podcast and this platform in the world right now.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 11:07Speaker 00

  Thanks. Let's just keep trying to do it against the rising tide of nonsense. Thank you both. A pleasure to meet you both.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  Thank you, Amy.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  We love you, Lena.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  Bye, guys.

• 11:21Speaker 00

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• 12:06Speaker 00

  I was really, really looking forward to it, just because we get to hang out.

• 12:09Speaker 03

  I mean, come on.

• 12:09Speaker 00

  I know.

• 12:10Speaker 03

  We like to do this when we're not on camera.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  I know.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  That's the cool part.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  Well, it's been, Lena Waithe is here, everybody.

• 12:16Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  Very exciting. How's your mic?

• 12:18Speaker 03

  Good, good. I'm just like placing it. I don't have a hat on, which I was like debating, like, do I wear a hat? I'm feeling good about the no hat.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I liked, I mean, Lena, everything you wear is so cool.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  Like, Lena.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  Like, everything.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  Don't start with a B.

• 12:33Speaker 00

  You wear a hat, you take it off, it looks cool. It looks, like, come on. Coolest hat ever.

• 12:39Speaker 03

  You wear my own clothes. This is my own shit right here.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's like, I want to get into that, actually, because it's kind of, I want to talk to you about your, your look, your style, and also just the fact that, like, you're like my coolest friend.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  We'll get there, we'll get there.

• 12:57Speaker 03

  You're the best.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  So, I heard you say something in another podcast that I love, and I've been thinking about it a lot.

• 13:03Speaker 03

  Jesus, who knows?

• 13:04Speaker 00

  No, but I think it was another podcast, or TikTok, probably.

• 13:08Speaker 03

  Okay, not on there.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  No, but that's where I get all my information.

• 13:13Speaker 03

  You and everybody else.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know. But you said, like, if you're, you said something that I love, which is, if you're afraid that people are going to steal your ideas, you should have more ideas.

• 13:22Speaker 03

  That is true. I did say that. Follow the podcast.

• 13:26Speaker 00

  And it's such a great, it's, I totally agree. Can you tell me what you mean by that?

• 13:33Speaker 03

  Okay, this is a really good way to kick off, such a great question.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 13:36Speaker 03

  Because that's why you have a Peabody. Here's the deal, there's this interesting debate that happens where a lot of up-and-coming writers, if you will, talk about, how do I protect my ideas? Should I get them copywritten? Should I, like, register them with the WGA? And I always have a very, I guess it's a hot take response, which is, I don't believe someone can steal your idea.

• 14:01Speaker 00

  Say more, I love it.

• 14:02Speaker 03

  I just feel like if I tried to write my version of Parks and Rec, it wouldn't be Parks and Rec. It would be something else. Even if we all have the same, like, idea, it's going to be different because it's coming from two completely different writers. There's no way to copy and paste an idea. And also, artists, I believe, are oftentimes in the same wave. There's a reason why sometimes you see, there's a lot of vampire stuff happening right now. There's a lot of horror going on over here.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  And, and it's just because artists are sort of in their, their silo, they're doing their thing, and then they kind of decide, oh, I'm going to write this, or this is, this is very similar to this thing. I just don't buy it.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  Well, what I love about it is it's like, it's the opposite of grasping energy, right? Which is, like, I have this idea, the idea is so important, it's my one idea, and also, I, as I've gotten older, I feel like the idea is part of, part of it, but so much of it is people and process, too.

• 15:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:00Speaker 00

  Like, an idea can only go so far.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:03Speaker 00

  And it's just, in thinking about the theme for this pod today, I was thinking about just that, because I feel like that statement kind of defines your career. Like, you, you do so many different things. You produce, you write, you act, you know, you're, you do podcasts, you're in theater, you're in TV, like, you have this, this way of moving through the world creatively that doesn't feel like your last idea was your best idea, and that you're grasping too hard on any one thing. Would you think that's, would you say that's true?

• 15:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that's really beautifully put, and thank you for saying that, I receive it. I think that, I think you're right, I think people want to protect what they have.

• 15:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:41Speaker 03

  And there have been, like, big cases about people saying, this was stolen from this.

• 15:45Speaker 00

  Sure, sure.

• 15:46Speaker 03

  There's those things out there. But I just sort of feel like I'm always evolving as a person, so therefore, the work should be evolving as well. I feel like sometimes you see artists and they just keep kind of doing the same thing, and they're sort of similar, and sometimes that works for people, but I think for me, I want my art to always reflect where I am in my life.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:05Speaker 03

  And I want to be in a different place in my life.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  And you're, you're never a snob.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  No.

• 16:11Speaker 00

  But, you know, like, you like what you like, and you like it passionately, and then you make things, like, you're kind of high-low in, in what you do and what you make, and also what I love about you is you love TV.

• 16:24Speaker 03

  I'm obsessed with television. Yeah, I mean.

• 16:27Speaker 00

  I know, because it raised us, and it raised me, too.

• 16:30Speaker 03

  It was like, you know, I say, two-parent household, my mom and the television, I mean.

• 16:33Speaker 00

  What were you watching when you were young? Like, what was on TV?

• 16:36Speaker 03

  You know, it's interesting, like, I was a kid in the 90s, and I think that was a really interesting time for television. There was a lot of sitcoms happening.

• 16:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:44Speaker 03

  We got Perfect Strangers.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 16:46Speaker 03

  You got, okay, The Cosby Show, A Different World, obviously.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:50Speaker 03

  But also, you had stuff like Martin, and Living Single, and also In Living Color.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 16:54Speaker 03

  And also, we had Nick at Night, where we could watch the old shows, like Dick Van Dyke Show, like, you know, obviously, the Mary Tyler Moore Show.

• 17:00Speaker 00

  Were you watching that, Mary?

• 17:01Speaker 03

  You know what's interesting? I didn't really, it's interesting about, like, certain music you can't hear, like, when you're young, jazz doesn't make sense to you.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 17:09Speaker 03

  You can't hear it.

• 17:10Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 17:10Speaker 03

  And I think with Mary, and especially as I got older and I started to watch Friends and Will and Grace, Will and Grace has a sort of speed to it. And, and I think with Mary Tyler Moore, it took me a beat because it was a little bit like jazz.

• 17:22Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 17:23Speaker 03

  It was kind of slow, like, I mean, like, Chuckles Bites the Dust is one punchline. Like, they're like, we're going to hold, it's like edging for comedy. They're like, we're not giving this to you until the end.

• 17:35Speaker 00

  A lot of people might not know that you produced a Mary Tyler Moore documentary, and you, and I talked about this because we were both working on, on, like, comedic legends, where I did one about Lucy and Desi.

• 17:48Speaker 03

  Yes, you did.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  And, and Mary Tyler Moore is just this great example, I think, of like, what, what you talk about, which is TV that felt like ahead of its time and also just super cozy.

• 18:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:03Speaker 00

  What did you, when you got to know her and, and, and her work, like, more, it's so well said, it's like a sound, you have to get used to, like a music you have to get used to.

• 18:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  When did you start to understand her music, and what made you want to do that project?

• 18:17Speaker 03

  Well, I think I didn't really understand it until I was in college, when I had to sort of watch it, because I studied writing and producing and television at Columbia College, I did all that.

• 18:26Speaker 00

  You wanted to be a TV writer at seven?

• 18:28Speaker 03

  Yes, I did.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  How did you know that was a job?

• 18:32Speaker 03

  You're like, Lena, we thought people were just on the TV talking.

• 18:35Speaker 00

  Like, there was a veterinarian and astronaut.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  I know, and fireperson. Um, I, you know, I think I just, I would see names in the credits, and that's why I see Susan Fels Hill and Debbie Allen, I knew their names before I knew their faces. Um, and Lee Vet Lee, before she was a Vet Lee Bowser, and then, of course, I came to know all these women, thank God. But I just saw that show, and I said, I want to be a part of this. And also, I was aware that, you know, my mother, my grandmother, my aunt, the neighbors, we would all gather in my grandmother's bedroom, because that's where the TV was.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:06Speaker 03

  And we would just sit and watch TV, and it was, it was very communal, and so that's why I think I knew I wanted to be a part of it. But with Mary, I didn't get it until I was in college, and I got the box set on VHS, and like, watched the, the best episodes and things like that. And I just sort of was fascinated by her as a human being, so I read her memoir, After All, when I was in college, and that's what really kind of sent me down a rabbit hole. It was before you could just, like, Google somebody.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 19:31Speaker 03

  You had to read about them, and her memoir is so well-written, I think it may be out of print, they might have brought it back, but anyway, After All is a great memoir, where she talks about being an alcoholic, being the daughter of an alcoholic, she talks about losing her son to an accidental suicide, losing her brother to cancer, losing her little sister to a suicide, I mean, she, the woman that turned the world on with her smile, dealt with a lot of dark things in her life. And that, to me, that, that sort of juxtaposition was really fascinating. And I was just fascinated by this person, and I think, you know, for what she did for women in comedy, there was something dainty about her, but not precious.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 20:05Speaker 03

  And I definitely think you're, you're one of the descendants of Mary Tyler Moore in terms of someone.

• 20:09Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, thanks for saying that. She was really important in my house. My, my mom, you know, I had a young mom, and my mom used to just, like, love and laugh, love that show and laugh at that show. And it is really interesting, when you're a kid, you're paying attention to what your parents are laughing at.

• 20:22Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 20:23Speaker 00

  And she, Mary Tyler Moore was, reminded me of my mom, because it was like, she was like, getting more, you know, what is it, getting more Flies with Honey, then, like, she was sweet, but she got her way. And that, and her and Lou Grant, like, Nick Offerman and I would talk a lot about how Leslie and Ron had a very similar kind of, like, you know, gruff, and, you know, but Mary, Mary was like, and she was so, like... She was, you could tell she was genuinely funny and that ensemble on that show was so funny.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  Yes, and I think that speaks to why you're such a descendant of hers because she knows what it is to allow people to shine around her, to not make it all about her, even though it's her show.

• 21:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  Uh, but she wants everybody to shine, you know, but I think-

• 21:10Speaker 00

  Carol Burnett was like that too, is like that too.

• 21:12Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 21:13Speaker 00

  She always talks about wanting people to win and succeed.

• 21:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, you wanna give them the scene if you need to.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  I, I love that you were producing that and you, and you mentioned about watching it on VHS and I wanna talk about VHS because you used to work at Blockbuster.

• 21:25Speaker 03

  Yes, I did, okay?

• 21:26Speaker 00

  And people, there are gonna be-

• 21:27Speaker 03

  For the kids that don't know, okay?

• 21:29Speaker 00

  There are gonna be people listening right now that don't understand-

• 21:32Speaker 03

  Don't make me cry, don't make me cry, don't make me cry.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  Don't understand how important Blockbuster was. Well, first of all, what was Blockbuster? Because you were like, it was like a-

• 21:41Speaker 03

  A paradise, okay?

• 21:43Speaker 00

  It was a paradise!

• 21:44Speaker 03

  A library of film and TV. Uh, it was everything. I used to go there all the time. That's where you had to go to watch old stuff, sometimes see new stuff. This is the crazy thing. Now you just sit on your couch and hit a button. Then you had to go, you had to go hope that in the new release wall that they weren't all gone. You had to go up and say, "Oh, did somebody return, you know what I'm saying, uh, Face Off? Did somebody return Face Off? No?"

• 22:05Speaker 00

  And I remember you'd go, for you young people listening, you would go, it was a big date.

• 22:10Speaker 03

  You'd get your popcorn, get your candy.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, you'd buy it there.

• 22:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, you would, yeah.

• 22:14Speaker 00

  And you'd go often with like friends or a date and you'd stand in front of a giant wall of titles.

• 22:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Just the sleeve.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:21Speaker 00

  And you'd bring the sleeve over to the thing and like if it was there, it usually meant that they had it, but sometimes they didn't. They were like, "We're out."

• 22:27Speaker 03

  Most of the time they did, it was a popular movie. You coming in late on a Sunday, like, "Do y'all have, uh..."

• 22:32Speaker 00

  You have Jurassic Park.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  Jurassic Park, "Do you have the latest?" "No, I don't, I got the old one." "Okay, cool, I'll take that."

• 22:37Speaker 00

  You're right, and then, and then you'd look and you'd wanna get Face Off and you wouldn't, they wouldn't have it. So you'd be like, "What other John Travolta stuff do you have?"

• 22:43Speaker 03

  Okay, what else do you have? Like, "Okay, cool, you got Powder? Okay, what's happening?" I don't know. Like, it's just like the most random. It's, it's how I got my taste. I would just like read things based on the cover. I'm like, "I'll read this, I'll watch this."

• 22:52Speaker 00

  Okay, did you have to deal with like the Blockbuster guys who, like the, you know, there was like, uh, like the mini Quentin Tarantino's of the world? Who came up, who were like, who were like directors or wanna be, and they wanted to talk to you about film and, and school you?

• 23:07Speaker 03

  Okay, not in Chicago, like, okay, like in Anadis. They were like more so just like very obsessed with whatever they were obsessed with, but it was interesting people coming in there, you know? It's like it was families. We would also get moms saying like, "Can my son watch this?" And you're like, "Uh, wow, huh, like, is he into violence and sex? I don't know. I know he should be watching Jungle Fever." Uh, I don't know. But no, a lot of parents really were concerned about what the movie was and what was happening. And I just was like, "It depends on how you wanna raise your children, to be honest with you. I don't wanna be a part of this conversation."

• 23:39Speaker 00

  And you got Blockbuster, you were so tight with Blockbuster. You were so good at being a Blockbuster person, at Blockbuster.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  Blockbuster employee.

• 23:49Speaker 00

  Blockbuster employee. Wait, did you guys party? Did the Blockbuster employees party a lot?

• 23:54Speaker 03

  The one in LA, we definitely got into some trouble. Like, when I transferred-

• 23:58Speaker 00

  You got transferred?

• 23:59Speaker 03

  Well, I asked to be transferred. I mean, this is, which is insane. That speaks to who I am. I said, "Look, I wanna keep this job." Transfer me to the one in LA, and they did.

• 24:09Speaker 00

  And they did.

• 24:10Speaker 03

  And it's like that-

• 24:11Speaker 00

  You must've been an awesome employee though.

• 24:12Speaker 03

  Oh, I was the best.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 24:13Speaker 03

  I was like on top of it, come on. I'm like going through the return bin, making sure it's empty.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:19Speaker 03

  You know, talking to people about movies, making recommendations. Like, the LA one was popping.

• 24:23Speaker 00

  And then you get to LA because why do you wanna go to LA? Cause you wanna be acting and writing and you wanna-

• 24:28Speaker 03

  I went there because there's a Semester in LA program through Columbia College in Chicago where they send like 12 students to go to Los Angeles to be on a Hollywood lot. You're writing spec scripts. People don't do that anymore where you write a script of a show that already exists to see if you can match the voice. And the crazy thing is I could never crack Parks and Rec, but I did a 30 Rock spec and I did a Modern Family spec. And I loved Parks and Rec, but I just could not, I couldn't grab that voice. I could, I just sort of couldn't do it. And, and not for lack of trying, but what you have to kinda do is sit in your apartment, your studio apartment and try to like come up like, "What's the A story? What's the B story? What's this?" And I was able to kinda like play with those characters a little bit more on 30 Rock than I kinda could figure out on Parks and Rec.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  Like, speaking of rhythm, had like a really percussive, very funny joke per ratio kinda situation.

• 25:14Speaker 03

  And I know I get a lot of fun with the Tracy thing, you know what I'm saying? Like, I think my, my story for him was like, he, he, uh, he promised that Obama was gonna be at his birthday party and, uh...

• 25:26Speaker 03

  But yeah, that got me out to LA, like writing those spec scripts and stuff like that and, um, being on lots and being an assistant and, and being an intern.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Well, then you assisted Gina Prince Blythewood, who is-

• 25:36Speaker 03

  Yes, Blythewood. She said, "There's no L in it. It's like Python." When I was her assistant for two years, I had to always help people say her last name. It's the most intense. Okay, like, it's like, think about Python and wood and put a B in front of it, Blythewood.

• 25:48Speaker 00

  So you were an assistant for Gina Prince Blythewood.

• 25:50Speaker 03

  There you go!

• 25:51Speaker 00

  Okay, Gina, I love your work.

• 25:53Speaker 03

  Yes, come on. She's gonna be so happy. Come on, Love and Basketball, Secret Life of Bees, let's go.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  Incredible. We had Regina Hall on, we had Viola talking about Woman King.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  Oh, come on, when is Gina getting here?

• 26:04Speaker 00

  I would love to talk to her.

• 26:06Speaker 03

  She did Children of Blood and Bone.

• 26:07Speaker 00

  Oh, what, what, what did you learn from her? Like, what'd you learn about being a boss from her?

• 26:11Speaker 03

  Oh my God, so much, so much.

• 26:12Speaker 00

  She's so talented.

• 26:13Speaker 03

  Okay, so Gina is very cool and I would watch her navigate certain situations and she would never raise her voice. She would never lose her temper.

• 26:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 03

  Um, and I think also, it's so funny, thinking about Mary Tyler Moore, if you look at the top of that documentary, this guy is asking her this very offensive like question, like, "Can a woman have it all? Can a woman be married and have a child and have a career?" And the thing is, is that Mary kinda just sits there in the cut and just responds in a way that's so eloquent and beautiful. Gina was a version of that for me in terms of in person, in real time, where people would challenge her authority or would ask her if she really knew what she was doing and Gina would just never be like frazzled by it. She would just sort of be calm, respond and show up and let the works speak for itself. And so that's what I really learned from her. It's like, don't lose your temper, let the works speak for itself and, um, yeah, just don't ever lose your cool.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  Um, you talk about Aziz.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 27:06Speaker 00

  You talk about getting the part in Master of None, which is where most people met you. Like, the world kinda got to know you. But you've mentioned Alison Jones.

• 27:15Speaker 03

  Oh, well.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  So Alison Jones, who is Alison Jones for people who don't know?

• 27:18Speaker 03

  She's a iconic casting director.

• 27:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:21Speaker 03

  And she's someone who's discovered many talents and I'm one of them. Um, I give Aziz credit for sure, but he, in a really cool way, when he was casting the, what used to be called the Untitled Aziz Ansari Project, he said, "I wanna just meet with people before I read with them." Um, and he said, "I wanna meet interesting people." And, and Alison had met with me, you know, like that year, earlier that year, cause she saw something I put on the internet, which was like this pilot presentation, which would ultimately become 20's, which I was not in because again, no desire to be an actor.

• 27:51Speaker 00

  Why no desire?

• 27:52Speaker 03

  I think because, and it's still my biggest goal, is to be a great television writer. That's, that's really all I ever wanted to be. Obviously, yeah, started from when I was young. I never thought I wanted to be on the screen. I think I always wanted to be the person writing the words that they said.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 28:08Speaker 03

  And that was just always what it was. And I admire actors a great deal. I love a, a, a great TV star, a great movie star. I just didn't want that pressure that came with it and, and all that comes with that, because it's a lot.

• 28:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:22Speaker 03

  And, um, and so I, when I wrote the pilot presentation for 20's, it was, it was a, I was writing a thinly veiled version of my 20's and myself and what I, my friends and all that. And so it got, it got a little, you know, buzz and people were talking about it and I got a call that Alison Jones wanted to meet with me. I didn't even know who she was. I didn't. I was like, "Why is a casting director wanna meet with me? I'm, I'm not casting anything." And when I went into, I walked into her office, of course, I walked by the poster for Freaks and Geeks, I walked by the poster for Veep, I walked by the poster for Bridesmaids and I'm like, "Okay, this person, uh..."

• 28:57Speaker 00

  She's got good taste.

• 28:58Speaker 03

  Clearly, she's, uh, she knows when a star walks into her, uh, office. And so I sat with her and we talked about television and what we like to watch. And, and what I think, what I kinda understood in that moment is that Alison kinda picked up on my taste being very varied and sort of well-rounded. We talked about Maude, we talked about Ann Martin, and we talked about all these different things. And she was like, "Okay." And then she asked me had I have any desire to be an actor and I said, "No." And she said, "Okay, do you mind if I bring you in for some things?" And I said, "Sure." And she did. She brought me in for, uh, an episode of Veep, which I completely failed cause Julia Louis-Dreyfus was in the room and reading with me and I was like, "Oh no, I, I can't. No, this is not about to happen. I don't know what's going on."

• 29:38Speaker 00

  Were you nervous, you were nervous?

• 29:39Speaker 03

  I didn't know Julia was gonna be in there.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  Right.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  And so I was like, "What?"

• 29:43Speaker 00

  Right, you walked in and then you were like, "Oh."

• 29:45Speaker 03

  I've since become friends with Julia. I love her. Her voice is in Mary Tyler Moore doc, very grateful. She's amazing. Let's work together. Like, "Okay, bet." But, but what was cool about Alison Jones is that she's like, "Okay, I'm not worried about that. Bring you in again for, um, the comeback, season two."

• 29:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 29:58Speaker 03

  And I'm a person that had the, the comeback season one on DVD, watched it with the director's commentary, listened to Lisa and Michael talk about their process and figuring out value shares. So I was studying, okay, that series and all that it was, cause I knew when I was watching the comeback, when I was in college, in Chicago, still living with my mom, I was like, "This is something different and new." And this is crazy that she's coming from Friends and then he's coming from Sex and the City and they're doing this?

• 30:24Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 30:24Speaker 03

  Understood, got it. I, I, I got that at that moment.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  And the depiction of, of television writers in that show.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  It's like, how much are y'all talking shit? Like, what's going on? But also for, I almost said Valerie, for Lisa Kudrow to also give you a version of what an actress can be, an aging actress, and what that can look like, and how that can feel, and the insecurity. It was crazy. So, she called me in. At first, it was interesting, because she was like, do you know what the comeback is? And I said, I, I, yeah, I'm obsessed with it. And she was like, okay, well, they're doing a second season. And I said, okay. What? And she was like, when they come in, they're doing a press day, there's gonna be a bunch of reporters, I think you'd be cool. So she comes in. Luckily, Lisa nor Michael Patrick came in the room. Thank God.

• 31:07Speaker 00

  Lesson learned, don't be in the room.

• 31:09Speaker 03

  Don't let them be in there. So she's put me on tape. I said, like, align. And then I got the call that Michael, and Michael was directing that episode. And so, he picked me, thank God. And that was actually my TV debut. Me being like, one of the reporters for her press conference, or whatever. And so, me being on that set was, to me, that was one of those moments, one of those God moments. That was a big moment for me. And I remember, I had a pitch for my line, the way I could say it a little bit better. And that's always a tricky thing, because I'm like, oh, don't be that person. I got one line, I have a thought on it. But, but Michael Patrick came, to his credit, who I love, and he's been a wonderful mentor of mine. He's also kind of, you know, gotten on me a little bit, too. And he thinks I'm being a little too big for my britches. But, he, he, he heard it, and he said, yeah, that is better, that's better, that's better.

• 31:51Speaker 03

  And then, of course, later, Alison was talking to Aziz, and he said, who are some interesting people? And she said, oh, I think you should meet Lena Waithe. And that's how, I literally went to his home, literally pulled up to his house, walked in, sat with him and Alan.

• 32:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, Alan Yang, who was a writer on Parks and Rec, who created Master of None with Aziz.

• 32:10Speaker 03

  Yes, I mean, those two. And I just sat with him. And I think I was prepared for that moment, because it was weird, because I was so used to doing staffing meetings.

• 32:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. So what, for people that don't know, like, a staffing meeting, when you're a writer and you're trying to get a job, you kind of do like, a general meeting.

• 32:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, you sit and talk about yourself. And you like, you know, they've often read a script of yours, whether it be a spec or an original, and they talk about that, talk about your life. And I just sat in front of them, and I was not unlike this. I was very comfortable in my skin. I had just fallen in love with somebody. I was talking about all kind of stuff. And I, and they just sort of kind of, we talked like, 30 minutes, the three of us? And then, that was it. And then I got a call that he wanted me to come read with him.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  It's so interesting, you're talking about writers taking meetings, because I think for people that are listening, like, I don't think enough people know that writing for television, a lot of it is about, like, will you be a person that people just want in the room?

• 33:00Speaker 03

  That's right, that's right. You gotta be chill. You gotta be laid back, you gotta be a team player. You gotta know when to be quiet, you gotta know when to speak up. You gotta know the hierarchy, you gotta know the politics of the room.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  Have you always known how to do that? Because you were so naturally good at it, Lena.

• 33:16Speaker 03

  I mean, I know how to, how to play my position. And I've been, I was a staff writer twice, before I sold my own show.

• 33:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:23Speaker 03

  So when you're a staff writer, you really are there just a, you're a helping hand, you know? And you can't, and also, what I learned is that, it's not your job to fix the show. And a lot of people come in there going, okay, I got it. I know how to get a, that Emmy, you know what I'm saying? It was never, never that. Even when I did get handed an episode to write, obviously, a season two of Master of None, which ultimately became the Thanksgiving episode.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  Which one, the Emmy?

• 33:45Speaker 03

  Well, I'm very grateful, first black woman, never been, I was standing writing a comedy series, come on.

• 33:54Speaker 03

  Aziz knew what was up. You know, I didn't actually want to write that episode, because I wanted to keep it separate. I was, a lot of people, oh, yeah, you wrote on Master of None. I was like, season one, I didn't write on the show at all.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 34:04Speaker 03

  Now, mind you, you know how it is, when you're in between takes, and you're talking, and Aziz is like, oh, I'm putting that in, I'm throwing that in, I'm like, okay, bet, cool.

• 34:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:11Speaker 03

  But with season two, and him and Alan asked, well, how did you come out? And I told them the story, they were like, okay, that's an episode, we gotta do that. And I was like, okay, cool, y'all write it. I'm gonna go do the Spielberg movie. And Aziz, I'll never forget, he said, he said, if you don't co-write this, we're not doing the episode. I just was feeling like, not overwhelmed, but I was about to go do Ready Player One.

• 34:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:31Speaker 03

  And I was gonna be in London, and that was my first feature, and I didn't want to mess that up. I mean, come on, come on, where do you go from there? But he came to London, to his credit, and we, a weekend, when I was not working, and we sat in the hotel room, his hotel room, and just like, two days.

• 34:47Speaker 00

  Cranked it out.

• 34:47Speaker 03

  Knocked it out.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  When, when you were, when you were like, digging deep for that story, your story, did you have any, like, did you think about what you wanted to keep for yourself? And what you wanted to give to the show? It's tricky, right?

• 35:02Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  And I mean, it's such a beautiful episode, and it's so, and it, and it really spoke to so, and Angela.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, Angela Bassett? Are you kidding me?

• 35:13Speaker 00

  Come on, just talk about her for a second.

• 35:15Speaker 03

  I was like, she's gonna say no. I was like, there's no way she comes up to you.

• 35:18Speaker 00

  You had not met her, you didn't?

• 35:19Speaker 03

  Had not met her, obviously obsessed with her.

• 35:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:21Speaker 03

  You know, Aziz and I both are obsessed with Jackson 5: The American Dream. That's why we named the character Catherine, like, but I just was like, she's not gonna do it, bro. I was like, you're nuts. Melina Matsuka's directed the episode beautifully, Kim Whitley is in episode. What did I want to keep? I, I think what I wanted to do was be as vulnerable as I could on the page.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:40Speaker 03

  And I think what was so interesting about it, which I think surprised Alan and Aziz, they thought that religion was a big part of my story, in terms of why my family wasn't really embracing of my sexuality. But it really, it was more about, what would the neighbors think? Not, what will God think? And, and that was something that was unique, and one of my favorite moments in the episode is, not unlike in real life, when I told my mom I was gay, she looked around to see if anybody heard. Like, we're in a diner, it's like, these are strangers, like, who, who cares what these other people think? And I think that spoke so much to, I don't know, like, who I am. It doesn't, I don't think me being queer makes me more noble, more special, more interesting. And it's just a part of my humanity.

• 36:25Speaker 03

  And I think that's what I'm really trying to do in that scene, is trying to show my mother her own child's humanity.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, beautiful. I mean, so beautifully done, so recognized for such, like, it was recognized for such special work. Congratulations on winning that Emmy.

• 36:44Speaker 03

  Thank you so much, I appreciate you.

• 36:45Speaker 00

  Beautiful speech, too, your Emmy speech was so good. You were so cool and relaxed. Lena, you were up there, like, like, you just, like, no nerves.

• 36:53Speaker 03

  Yo, I mean, well, look, it's, it's, you never know, you know how this goes.

• 36:56Speaker 00

  Okay, but...

• 36:59Speaker 03

  But you never know. And some people, there were, it's interesting.

• 37:02Speaker 00

  But you're relaxing, you relax people.

• 37:06Speaker 03

  Wow, I appreciate that.

• 37:07Speaker 00

  Because you feel relaxed. Is that true? Are you relaxed inside your head? Do you know what I mean?

• 37:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know what you mean. I, I think there was a lot of talk, I was up against two episodes of Atlanta, by the way, one, okay? And that was like...

• 37:21Speaker 00

  Those were tough years, the competitive years.

• 37:23Speaker 03

  Okay, but I'll give it to Donald Glover. We were at the Chateau, I'll never forget it, the night before, he does all these parties, the night before, and Donald said to me, with very confidence, and the cool about him that he has, he said, you're gonna take the writing one, you're gonna take it. And I was like, I don't know, man. I was like, I don't know. He said, no, you got it. He's like, you got it. And Sterling K. Brown was like, you're gonna take it. So I'm getting this weird, people are like, you got it, it's yours, you got it. I'm going like, oh, I don't know.

• 37:49Speaker 00

  It's yours to lose now.

• 37:49Speaker 03

  I know it's yours to lose, I was like, ah! And then, you know, the history that came with it, to be, you know, and you just had Mindy here, she's one of the first women of color to be nominated in that category for outstanding writing in a comedy series, for episode of The Office. And, and Wanda Sykes won, but for sketch comedy writing, which was for Chris Rock's show. And so, when they told me, when the Academy said, no, you're the first African-American woman to ever be nominated for outstanding writing in a comedy series, for the prime time Emmy, where I was like, oh, huh, okay. And I think that just, it, it brought a different level of weight to it.

• 38:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:21Speaker 03

  And I think what I wanted to do, I did think about Halle Berry, winning that Oscar. And I remember watching and crying.

• 38:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:30Speaker 03

  And it was, I was, I was in Chicago, so it was late as hell. It was like, my mom had gone to bed, she said, I hope she, I hope the black woman wins. I was like, I know, we'll see. And, and I remembered that speech, and she was very emotional, and rightfully so. But I loved how she sort of channeled the women that had come before her.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 38:47Speaker 03

  You know, and I think what I wanted to do was to honor Susan Fels Hill, Debbie Allen, Velli Bowser, Gina Prince-Brythwaite, all these women that had been in television writers' rooms, that had influenced me, and, and also wanted it to be a moment for the queer community as well, for us to be seen, and, and just for, for black women that want to write TV comedy.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Totally. And you spoke about this, too, which is like, comedy, which also just, you know, I think, like, any, any person that feels like they have to, any person that feels like they're representing a lot of history and a lot of people, that isn't always the easiest thing for comedy.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  Right, yeah.

• 39:25Speaker 00

  Because comedy, it's like, there's nothing worse than being like, I'm gonna write something very important, like, fucking hell.

• 39:31Speaker 03

  What? I mean, come on.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  Like, you know, you're like, I'm gonna write a classic sketch.

• 39:36Speaker 03

  For white women everywhere.

• 39:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm gonna change some minds, with my comedy that's like, oh!

• 39:45Speaker 03

  I'm glad that that episode meant so much to so many people, and...

• 39:49Speaker 00

  You must have people all the time coming up and talking to you about it, right?

• 39:51Speaker 03

  Yes, yes.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  That's really cool.

• 39:53Speaker 03

  People you wouldn't expect, a lot of straight white dudes say they love it, which is always fascinating to me.

• 39:56Speaker 00

  I bet you have a lot of straight white dude fans.

• 39:59Speaker 03

  I do, interestingly enough, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they love Master of None, they love Ready Player One.

• 40:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 40:08Speaker 04

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• 42:50Speaker 00

  What was it like working with Steven Spielberg?

• 42:51Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 42:52Speaker 00

  We got to interview him for the Coleman Domingo episode. He gave Coleman a question. And I was saying to him, like, you know, just thanks for giving me all of my memories.

• 43:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, thank you for giving me a happy childhood.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, like all everything you've ever done is in my head forever.

• 43:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:11Speaker 00

  But what was he like to be, what was it like to be directed by him?

• 43:14Speaker 03

  He's like the best dad you could ever ask for.

• 43:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:17Speaker 03

  And I always say, he's a giant that doesn't make you feel small.

• 43:20Speaker 00

  Mm.

• 43:21Speaker 03

  That's, that's who he is. He's very aware of his, of his bigness. He's aware of the history that walks into the room, what he does. And he's really good at disarming people.

• 43:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:32Speaker 03

  And making you not be nervous about it. And he was not in the room as well when I auditioned for Lady Player One, thank God.

• 43:38Speaker 00

  Thank God.

• 43:39Speaker 03

  He hired me off of a tape. Like, you know, like I came in, obviously for Ellen Lewis, who's also another iconic casting director. And I could tell when I walked in the room and was just very comfortable that she saw something.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 03

  And then brought me in again. And, and I think she had a conversation with Steven, and I think that was a part of how I got in that film.

• 43:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 03

  But he just, he took to me. And it's so funny, there's a level of trust that was there before even getting on the set. And he, one day, he said, Lena, I could tell you to like run off this cliff and you would do it. I said, yep. Yep, that's how much I trusted him. And you will, you will, you'll follow him to the end of the earth because you know that his heart is in the right place. You know that he wants to make something.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:21Speaker 03

  Classic, something iconic.

• 44:22Speaker 00

  I feel like you like when there's like a strong leader.

• 44:25Speaker 03

  I do, actually.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  Like you relax.

• 44:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I sort of like when a person is leading with their heart.

• 44:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:31Speaker 03

  You know?

• 44:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:32Speaker 03

  And, and just sort of has everybody's best interest, you know, in mind.

• 44:35Speaker 00

  Are you the kind of person, if there's no leader, it'll be you?

• 44:39Speaker 03

  Look, it depends on the, it depends on the situation. It's like, do I need to get in here? Because I don't want to feel like I have to control everything. I don't want to be that person.

• 44:47Speaker 00

  Why not?

• 44:48Speaker 03

  You're like, uh, you don't.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  It seems like you know how to do it. I mean, somebody's got to do it.

• 44:54Speaker 03

  I mean, so first of all, a lot of my friends felt like, oh, really? You don't want to control everything later?

• 44:58Speaker 00

  Like, like a trip, if you're going on a trip with your friends, are you the person that plans the trip?

• 45:03Speaker 03

  I want to sort of curate the experience, more so than control it.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  Well, that's controlling.

• 45:08Speaker 03

  Which is the same thing. Okay, God, I'm in therapy right now. Got it. This is me creating words. You're like, Lena, you're controlling, you're curating it.

• 45:14Speaker 00

  But see, I love that because I, that's your love language.

• 45:17Speaker 03

  Right, I want to make sure we have a good time.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  I just want to talk about Shy for a second. Congratulations on it, like you're, now it's done.

• 45:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, almost, like whenever this airs, it'll be out.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  When this airs, it will have been done.

• 45:28Speaker 03

  Wonderful, perfect.

• 45:29Speaker 00

  And you are going to be, you will have, you know, successfully wrapped eight seasons of a show, which never happens.

• 45:37Speaker 03

  How long did Parks and Rec go? You can't even remember.

• 45:40Speaker 00

  This is a good question.

• 45:41Speaker 03

  The fact that you don't know off top.

• 45:43Speaker 00

  Seven or eight.

• 45:45Speaker 03

  So it tells me everything I want to know. It's the seven or eight, this is why we had to stop. Because people were like, you could have went 10. You not knowing is everything I want in life, okay? I know Mary Tomlin Moore went seven seasons, the first iteration, the second city went six, Will and Grace was eight seasons.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  I think, I think we did.

• 46:04Speaker 03

  This is what happens when you make television.

• 46:06Speaker 00

  Also.

• 46:06Speaker 03

  You forget.

• 46:07Speaker 00

  This is called menopause, baby.

• 46:09Speaker 03

  I'm Carrie, I'm Carrie.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  Here we go, Carrie.

• 46:12Speaker 03

  I'm Carrie.

• 46:13Speaker 00

  Hey, come on over. It's so fun.

• 46:15Speaker 03

  Look, night sweats.

• 46:16Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, it's so great.

• 46:17Speaker 03

  Night sweats, baby.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  Parks and Rec had seven seasons.

• 46:20Speaker 03

  Wow, so you're very Mary Tomlin Moore, okay? I'm one more, one more than you.

• 46:25Speaker 00

  And yeah, and you guys did eight, and, you know, people might not know.

• 46:28Speaker 03

  We had an extended season. Season six was 16 episodes.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  That, that, I've heard you talk about that, where they were like, we love it more. And you're like, this is so great, yay, nightmare. Because people don't understand.

• 46:41Speaker 03

  Took me out.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Like you pitched the whole.

• 46:43Speaker 03

  Took me out. I'm like, I like 10, baby. I like 10. I'm cable, what are we doing?

• 46:47Speaker 00

  When you, we used to do 20, we, we had really uneven seasons, like we had six seasons, six episodes the first season, and then.

• 46:54Speaker 03

  Which is insane.

• 46:55Speaker 00

  21, and then 24, and then 16.

• 46:59Speaker 03

  Which is normal.

• 47:00Speaker 00

  And then, at the time, I think we were in the 20s. And to do 20 episodes of TV, as people will probably notice, from episode 14, 13 is 60, it got a little goofy.

• 47:13Speaker 03

  A little goofy.

• 47:14Speaker 00

  Because you, you start an arc that ends like, you know, at about episode 11 or 12, and then you've got to kind of start another one that's going to take you to the end of the season. And in between, you're like, let's have an episode where we're all like, you know.

• 47:26Speaker 03

  Just, would it Treat Yourself happen, though?

• 47:29Speaker 00

  Great question.

• 47:31Speaker 03

  Just because like, that feels like, as an audience member, you wonder, is that y'all just being tired and landing on something iconic? Or is it like, we're, this is something we, we think could actually really take?

• 47:49Speaker 00

  Season four, episode four. So we were a little fresh, we were still a little fresh.

• 47:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, that, that feels about right.

• 47:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:56Speaker 03

  Because that, that was something that just, it just stuck. And it's still, I still get those gifts from people, like, they're just like, Treat Yourself.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  2011.

• 48:05Speaker 03

  Come on, man, what? And we still, like, we will say it, like.

• 48:10Speaker 00

  Written by Alan Yang, that episode.

• 48:12Speaker 03

  Come on, Alan Yang, that's a good one.

• 48:14Speaker 00

  And congratulations on a incredible run.

• 48:18Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  I mean, it does not happen anymore.

• 48:21Speaker 03

  I know.

• 48:21Speaker 00

  And it is.

• 48:22Speaker 03

  The last of the Mohicans.

• 48:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's so true. And, and, you know, like, you also, you, we didn't even really talk about it, but, you know, we both spent time in Chicago, you were born in Chicago. It's such a love letter to that city. And it's also, like, just like the city, it's, over the past eight years, the show and its relationship to the city has changed.

• 48:44Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  Like, it's, it's. Do you have people from Chicago feel like real ownership of that show? How do they talk to you about the show when they talk to you about it?

• 48:57Speaker 03

  I mean, they're mad that it's going away.

• 48:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:59Speaker 03

  They're like, what? This is doing forever. I'm like, I don't know if I could do that.

• 49:04Speaker 03

  It's like, well, this about the stuff.

• 49:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:06Speaker 03

  But they feel like these characters are their family.

• 49:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:09Speaker 03

  And they feel very connected to them. I remember when Parks and Rec, when you guys closed the curtains and you guys were doing all the press. And I remember watching all those interviews and watching all of you. Because I was a person that watched the entire series. It does feel like a part of you is like not going to be there anymore.

• 49:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:28Speaker 03

  And so, and-

• 49:30Speaker 00

  Like, you're gonna miss the characters.

• 49:31Speaker 03

  You're gonna miss the characters. I'm gonna miss the people, the writers. You know how that is. It's just, it's a family. It becomes a family, even though it's, it can be dysfunctional sometimes and it's work. But you realize how special that is to make something that the world watches and that people care about.

• 49:47Speaker 00

  I want to do a very quick speed round about Chicago. Coldest you've ever been?

• 49:51Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. Let me tell you something. Winters, as you know, in Chicago are just relentless.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  They're relentless.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  They test you. I think it's why I'm so cool.

• 50:03Speaker 00

  I think you're right. I think that there's like a Midwestern thing. First of all, nobody ever talks about the weather because it's like-

• 50:10Speaker 03

  What's the point?

• 50:11Speaker 00

  What's the point?

• 50:11Speaker 03

  It's like, accept it.

• 50:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  Deal with it.

• 50:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, no one walks around saying it's cold, like-

• 50:16Speaker 03

  I'm waiting on a bus in Chicago, okay? And on the train.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 50:20Speaker 03

  In the cold weather, walking from the train station to my home.

• 50:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:25Speaker 03

  Like, you don't, don't, don't, don't talk to me. Like, I don't, nothing scares me. Like, I'm not bothered by you or your attitude. Like, I've had to walk in snow to get to where I had to go on a train, on a bus, like, waiting on a bus in the cold.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 50:42Speaker 03

  Don't talk to me, man. Don't do it.

• 50:44Speaker 00

  Okay, best concert or best music you've ever seen there?

• 50:47Speaker 03

  Best concert? Oh, see, here's the deal. I gotta do two.

• 50:50Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 50:50Speaker 03

  Prince and Whitney.

• 50:51Speaker 00

  Oh, my, what?

• 50:52Speaker 03

  I know. But here's the deal.

• 50:54Speaker 00

  God, I would have loved to have seen Whitney.

• 50:55Speaker 03

  Talk about musicality. Here's a, here's a deal, a big influence my mom had on me. She did not like the fact that I couldn't hear Prince when I was young.

• 51:02Speaker 00

  I heard you talk about this. I love this. Say that, say that.

• 51:05Speaker 03

  Could not, I just didn't get it. And she would play Prince a lot.

• 51:09Speaker 00

  Well, you might have also been like, like, nobody wants to like be into what their mom is into, even if they're the coolest mom. The coolest mom, like, if you're like, this is really great. Your kids is like, they want to be their own person, maybe, was that?

• 51:23Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 51:24Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 51:24Speaker 03

  I don't know. It just, she would play him a lot, which is like, makes sense now, as you think about in the car, in the house. And I just was like, a young person that just said, I don't, what is this? What's happening? And so now, fast forward, he's coming to Chicago.

• 51:38Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 51:39Speaker 03

  And I'm in college and she's like, you're coming. And I said, why would I want to go to a concert of somebody whose music I don't like? And she said, because you don't understand and you need to understand. And no child of mine is not gonna be a fan of Prince. I mean, this is really, she's not joking. Her friend, Monique, they in the front seat. I'm in the back, upset. And we're going, I think it was like United Center or something, I don't know. And we pull up and I go to this concert and I am like baptized, in a way, by his music. And I hear it for the first time.

• 52:11Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 52:12Speaker 03

  Live. And I'm like, standing with my mom and her friend, they just having the best time. And I'm just, just in awe.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:19Speaker 03

  And we have, I still have a T-shirt. We got a T-shirt from that concert. I still have it. And I walked out of there different.

• 52:28Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:29Speaker 03

  And I went and bought all the, then you can go to a record store. I went and bought all the records and was like, listening to everything.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  You went to Blockbuster, you got all the movies.

• 52:36Speaker 03

  Went to watch Purple Rain.

• 52:37Speaker 00

  Purple Rain.

• 52:38Speaker 03

  I just really was educated. And it was one of those things where I was really grateful that she was like, you need to know what this is. And then, fast forward, I'm in L.A. And he's, there's a whole, like, you know, a set at the Forum for a while. And I would go to those concerts and like, listen and-

• 52:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:55Speaker 03

  And I have it tattooed on the back of my leg now. Like, I have a Prince tattoo on the back of my leg. And then Whitney Houston, which I also have her tattooed here on my arm. Paparazzi photo of her sticking her tongue out.

• 53:07Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 53:09Speaker 03

  I'm just, I've been a Whitney girl since, you know, I heard Greatest Love of All. And I'm not alone in that, you know, growing up in the 90s and being born in the 80s. She was it.

• 53:18Speaker 00

  She was it.

• 53:19Speaker 03

  There was no, there is no one else. There is nothing else. And I just remember finally, like, being in the same space. And she was, and My Love Is Your Love really was like a comeback, speaking of the comeback.

• 53:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:32Speaker 03

  It was her sort of coming back.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:34Speaker 03

  And saying like, I'm not done yet. I'm not done.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 53:38Speaker 03

  We got, we, I'm still here and I still have a voice and I still matter. And I didn't even understand the significance of that, you know, as a young person. But I remember like, oh, Whitney coming out with new music? What? Oh, man, it ain't a, it ain't a greatest hits. It's just, she coming out with some new stuff. And, and that was even really important for me to see, that for her to say, this is where I am now in my life. And I'm gonna be rocking with Wyclef and Missy Elliott and Rodney Jerkins and Lauryn Hill. And these people are who they are without me being who I am. And, and I remember that album and those videos and, and me just feeling really, and I have a T-shirt from that one, which I, which I wear often.

• 54:13Speaker 00

  God.

• 54:14Speaker 03

  It's something about those, those shirts and those merch. When you go to concerts, like, grab, grab a T-shirt, do something, because you never know.

• 54:20Speaker 00

  There's so many concerts I, like, I regret. Like, one of my, I went to, like, New Edition was one of my first concerts.

• 54:25Speaker 03

  Come on, that's why we love you.

• 54:27Speaker 00

  God, I would-

• 54:27Speaker 03

  You can come to the cookout. You're coming, you're there. You're awesome. Come on. You're, you're, you're with us. We love you.

• 54:33Speaker 00

  Ronnie, Bobby, Ricky and Mike.

• 54:36Speaker 03

  Come on.

• 54:36Speaker 00

  My little girl, who cares? Who she likes? Um, but-

• 54:42Speaker 00

  But, man, I wish I had a T-shirt.

• 54:45Speaker 03

  I went to a Janet Jackson concert in Chicago, the Rhythm Nation. I still have that one. Like, the merch shirts, there's something, it's a, it's a piece of history. The fact that I can still fit my damn Rhythm Nation shirt.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  Well, can I talk to you about the way you dress for a second? Because I-

• 55:01Speaker 03

  Do it.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  Because I love it.

• 55:03Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 55:04Speaker 00

  And you have such good style. Honestly, a lot of times when I see you at events, I'm a little jealous of how comfortable you look compared to everybody else.

• 55:13Speaker 03

  It's the perk of being a lesbian.

• 55:16Speaker 00

  There's so many perks.

• 55:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, so many perks. So we don't have to deal with men, like, I mean, that's the main one. We really are looking at y'all.

• 55:22Speaker 00

  Janet laughing very hard.

• 55:26Speaker 00

  Hardest Janet's ever laughed.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  I mean-

• 55:32Speaker 03

  Woo, that bell ego. Got y'all exhausted.

• 55:35Speaker 00

  It's so true. It's so true. And like, your style, I love your style. And, and it's very you. It's really like, it's, it's, it's always changing. It's always interesting. It is like always right for the event that you're at. But you are never like, it's just like you as a person, you're just never trying too hard.

• 55:56Speaker 03

  True.

• 55:56Speaker 00

  And it's always cool.

• 55:57Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 55:58Speaker 00

  And do you have a style, you pick all this stuff yourself?

• 56:01Speaker 03

  Well, it's so funny, because I do, Jason Bolden, who is Cynthia, is like, he's actually her style. He would joke and be like, Lena, I'm your stylist too sometimes.

• 56:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:08Speaker 03

  But they actually doing real work. They like doing stuff and having conversations. So RuPaul always says, everybody's in drag.

• 56:15Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:15Speaker 03

  And, and I think for me, I want to feel how, on the outside, how I feel on the inside. And I just feel comfortable in, in the way that I dress. And I always want to feel comfortable.

• 56:25Speaker 00

  Me too.

• 56:26Speaker 03

  I never want to feel like I'm trying to be something I'm not or make someone else feel comfortable. I don't want, I don't want someone else's comfort to, to, to be a priority.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  When did you figure out your own style? When did you always have it?

• 56:41Speaker 03

  You know what's so interesting? Because I'm doing a clothing line right now.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  Perfect, I'm gonna buy it all.

• 56:45Speaker 03

  Called Proximity, all right? With a designer, her name is Knox, and she's from New York. And she, you know, I like to wear, because I just want to wear designers that reflect who I am. She's a queer black woman and we were friends and we were like, and this is, you know, a part of what she's doing. Like, she made this for me and I wore this to a premiere of him. I'm wearing it again. I like repeating things as well. I'm just letting folks know that like, every outfit doesn't have to be new or different. But I think, I sort of, I used to wear those T-shirts where there was, it was the whole time people were wearing T-shirts with like, a whole paragraph. It was like a little funny joke or thing. It was, that was a thing I was doing so much. I was like, Lord, help me, so glad I grew out of that. But then I got into vintage, like, stuff, like vintage shirts and things like that.

• 57:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 57:26Speaker 03

  That meant something to me.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 57:28Speaker 03

  And I was like, okay, cool. And then I got, you know, making a little bit of money. I'm like, okay, cool, I get a little designer thing here. And there was a thing where you wanted the designer brand there right there, so people know you were in Valentino.

• 57:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:38Speaker 03

  Then you get old and you realize, I don't want nobody to know that I got Valentino on. Just let it be, you know, as Rashida does, quiet luxury.

• 57:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 57:44Speaker 03

  You know, the, the white T-shirt costs $500.

• 57:46Speaker 00

  I mean, listen, I'm always asking Rashida. I'm like, what, where does this- And she's like, she's, right now, she's in the biggest clothes I've ever seen.

• 57:54Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 57:54Speaker 00

  Everything is gigantic, Japanese.

• 57:57Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 57:58Speaker 00

  Everything, she, she walks in, I'm like, is this what we're doing now? It looks incredible. Everything she's wearing is incredible.

• 58:05Speaker 03

  She's so chic and just easy. Like, I, I took a lot of tips from her. I said, okay, the little plain little jacket, little this, little- I steal, I steal a little bit with Rashida. I'm like, okay, Rashida's. But I think, I think style is not unlike your voice. So you have to try different things, find it over time.

• 58:21Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 58:21Speaker 03

  But I do think my queerness does lend itself to my style. A little big part of it is because I don't live under the male gaze. I don't have this desire to impress dudes.

• 58:32Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 58:33Speaker 03

  Or really even impress like, women. I'm just sort of, I'm like, what looks good to me?

• 58:37Speaker 00

  Well, this is kind of a segue, which is, you're, you're, you're the producer right now on a show that is like, all about people who are- Celebrating the way in which they've discovered who they are. And it is a show called The Jellicle Ball.

• 58:52Speaker 03

  This is true.

• 58:53Speaker 00

  And that is.

• 58:54Speaker 03

  The Jellicle Ball.

• 58:55Speaker 00

  Cats, The Jellicle Ball. You're a producer on it.

• 58:58Speaker 03

  Yes, one of the co-producers.

• 58:59Speaker 00

  And talk about watching it in real time, people like figuring out like how I wanna, how I wanna be in the world. Not only how I wanna dress, but how I wanna move, how I wanna be an artist, like, how did you get involved in working with that show? When did you first see it and why did you wanna be part of it?

• 59:18Speaker 03

  Well, thank God Cynthia saw it first. She was here in New York and went to see that pack when it was off Broadway. And she called and she said, you gotta see the show. You gotta come down. You gotta come to New York to see.

• 59:28Speaker 00

  Boy, and I bet people might be like a little intimidated when Cynthia Erivo's in the audience. That's a tough, that would be, I would be like.

• 59:34Speaker 03

  I think they were very excited and ready to show off their skills when she was there. She guest judged over there at pack. And so she called me, she was like, there's something, there's a level of intensity in somebody's voice where they're like, no, you need to come. And so I was like, okay, so I came, saw, and was blown away and said, okay, well, this should transfer to Broadway, I hope. And if it does, I said, I think we should be producers on it. And it wasn't the easiest thing, I think, because, you know, there's a lot of producers on Broadway shows and there's certain requirements and things that people need. And we just said, trust us. Like, we need to be a part of this because we wanna make sure everybody knows about it. We wanna get out there and like wave the flag and be on this amazing podcast and talk about it and all that, that stuff. So we were grateful to the lead producers, so they said, yeah, you guys should come on and be a part of this.

• 1:00:19Speaker 03

  And, you know, speaking of blockbuster, I watched Paris is Burning, that documentary, because it was on the shelf. And I saw it one day and I said, I'm gonna watch this doc. And I never stopped watching it. And I kept re-watching it again and again and again. And I was seeing what I want it to be. I was seeing these people with these big personalities and saying funny things. They're hilarious. We go back and watch Paris is Burning, there's just joke, joke, joke. They're not even trying, they're just being hilarious.

• 1:00:45Speaker 00

  And, I mean, that's, that to me is like real love language, is when people like tease each other.

• 1:00:50Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:00:50Speaker 00

  It's like, it's the most delicious.

• 1:00:53Speaker 03

  The white version is tease, black version is throw shade. You know what I'm saying? It's like, we're throwing shade, we're like being fierce, we're talking trash. And so I just loved that, how the, what, Paris is Burning really obviously helped to influence, you know, cast The Jellicle Ball and also influence Pose and things like that. But to see Junior LaBeija, who was in the documentary, and a lot of people in the documentary have since passed away, for him to be on that stage every night and being able to feel that love and receive it, I'm honored to witness it. And I've seen it twice, obviously on Broadway, obviously once on off Broadway. And it's something that just brings me so much joy.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  Well, we got to talk to the directors.

• 1:01:29Speaker 03

  Oh, come on.

• 1:01:31Speaker 00

  The Tony Award-winning directors.

• 1:01:33Speaker 03

  That's what they are now. They're the best.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  And we got to talk well behind your back with them.

• 1:01:39Speaker 03

  Oh, my goodness. These two, the dynamic duo.

• 1:01:44Speaker 00

  First of all, I was very stressed, I felt like they brought way too many relatives to the Tony.

• 1:01:48Speaker 03

  Well, come on, what do you expect?

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  I know, but they had a lot of people in those seats.

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:52Speaker 00

  And at one point, they were saying they had to talk to everybody. And I was like, no, you don't.

• 1:01:55Speaker 03

  Look.

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  It's your night. But they, but they, but they spoke, of course, so beautifully about just what you were saying, which is that you guys, you know, you and Cynthia like used your currency to get this show where it needed to be. And you saw something right away that that meant so much to them. And that, you know, that is kind of you in a nutshell, Lena. Like, you are, you are an artist who really loves other artists. You really support and, like, you like what you like. And you, when you like something, you really want people to know about it. Like, you are, you know, you're a mentor for so many people. And you're also just like never forgetting that you're a fan and a student at the same time. It's awesome.

• 1:02:38Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:02:39Speaker 00

  And they love working with you. And they had a couple of questions for you.

• 1:02:42Speaker 03

  Oh, my goodness. Ebony and Ivory.

• 1:02:50Speaker 00

  Okay, and so Jalen's question was, who is the person that you see on the dance floor? Or what kind of person do you see on the dance floor that gets you excited, that makes you think, this is gonna be a good party?

• 1:03:02Speaker 03

  Oh, like, who do I, if I see them on the dance floor, it's gonna be a good time?

• 1:03:05Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? Who are you looking for? Might not even be a specific person, but a kind of person.

• 1:03:11Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  A kind of party.

• 1:03:13Speaker 03

  You know what's interesting? Because I, I love, I love to dance, but I don't necessarily need to be in the center.

• 1:03:19Speaker 00

  I know, because you're cool, so you just.

• 1:03:23Speaker 03

  I don't need to be in the center. I know, I know.

• 1:03:25Speaker 00

  I know, that's what cool people do. They dance on the side, they dance on the side.

• 1:03:29Speaker 03

  I'm on the side, I'm in the cut, you know, I mean, doing the two-step. Oh, oh.

• 1:03:35Speaker 00

  I know, barely moving, looking cool.

• 1:03:39Speaker 00

  I get it.

• 1:03:39Speaker 03

  Not breaking a sweat.

• 1:03:40Speaker 00

  You mean, you're not breakdancing in the middle? Like, the person that's like hopping and puffing, going for it?

• 1:03:47Speaker 03

  But you know what, though? I fuck with those people, though.

• 1:03:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:50Speaker 03

  Because you need that person.

• 1:03:51Speaker 00

  Party pumper.

• 1:03:52Speaker 03

  You need the Beyonce.

• 1:03:53Speaker 00

  I'll tell you what I can bring to a party.

• 1:03:55Speaker 03

  What's that?

• 1:03:55Speaker 00

  I'll be the first one on the dance floor.

• 1:03:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, you will, because you're not, you don't have any qualms about it.

• 1:03:59Speaker 00

  I don't care. And somebody's gotta start it and nobody wants to. And we've been to like industry parties where it's like, there's a great DJ, nobody's dancing, we gotta start this. Like, what are we gonna talk to each other?

• 1:04:11Speaker 03

  Like, enough of that, let's go.

• 1:04:13Speaker 00

  And I will, I'll sacrifice myself and be number one, with hopefully a friend.

• 1:04:16Speaker 03

  Look, this is where you're the coolest. I love reading Bossy Pants. I love that section about you, when Tina says, like, when Amy got in there, it was like, oh, things have changed, things are gonna be different around here. Such a great passage where she talks about you coming to SNL. And I think that's so a reflection of you at a party, like, you're not afraid to be the first.

• 1:04:35Speaker 00

  Well, I'll be embarrassed, I don't care.

• 1:04:37Speaker 03

  Which is what makes you amazing.

• 1:04:39Speaker 00

  But what, who, who do you like to see? What type of person?

• 1:04:42Speaker 03

  What type of person?

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  Or like, is there a friend that you're like, okay, they're here, it's gonna be fun?

• 1:04:47Speaker 03

  You know what? I like a person who can actually dance. Like, I'm, I'm not skilled, you're not taught, we just going off of the vibes.

• 1:04:56Speaker 00

  Who's a good dancer?

• 1:04:58Speaker 03

  Well, a lot of the cats from Cats, like, we had an after-party.

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:02Speaker 03

  I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm not, I'm not even doing a two-step over here. I'm like, I'm gonna let y'all do what you're doing.

• 1:05:10Speaker 03

  Like, yeah, I think a lot of the drag queens, like, are, are doing a different kind of vibe, because they, because they know choreography.

• 1:05:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:19Speaker 03

  That's the thing. Like, dancers who, and performers, I really, I really love watching them.

• 1:05:26Speaker 00

  Me, too.

• 1:05:26Speaker 03

  Because there's an art to it, there's something to it.

• 1:05:29Speaker 00

  I was saying earlier, it's like magic.

• 1:05:31Speaker 03

  It is.

• 1:05:31Speaker 00

  It is.

• 1:05:32Speaker 03

  I like watching people dance. That's why, that's why I don't, I, I'm like, I don't wanna get in the way. I don't, I wanna just like catch a vibe, be a part of the groove. But I love watching people that actually know how to dance, how to dance. Because I could watch them all night.

• 1:05:44Speaker 00

  Okay, and the last question today is, what are you, because I know you love, you're like a culture vulture, you keep up.

• 1:05:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:51Speaker 00

  What, right now, are you watching, listening to? What are you into? Give me some recs. It could be a video that you can't stop watching, it could be.

• 1:06:01Speaker 03

  So much.

• 1:06:02Speaker 00

  And like, let's, let's, let's let, have it be funny, okay? I can't watch anymore. I know you were gonna say.

• 1:06:07Speaker 03

  I know, I was about to go half-man, sorry.

• 1:06:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. I was about to say, you were gonna go half-man and Baby Reindeer. Okay, I'm looking to laugh.

• 1:06:14Speaker 03

  I know, I know, sorry, I know.

• 1:06:15Speaker 00

  Even though I think that's technically a comedy.

• 1:06:17Speaker 03

  I know, I know. Oh, God, okay, damn. Are you a couples therapy girl?

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  Okay, couples therapy, let's talk about couples.

• 1:06:24Speaker 03

  The most recent season?

• 1:06:28Speaker 03

  Okay? Okay?

• 1:06:31Speaker 00

  Okay, first of all, who do we wanna talk?

• 1:06:36Speaker 03

  What?

• 1:06:37Speaker 00

  I'll take it away from this specific couple and just say in general, what is so good about couples therapy?

• 1:06:41Speaker 03

  Please.

• 1:06:41Speaker 00

  I think, is that you watch it and you're like, I got these two. You think, you think you, like, you're always proven a little wrong.

• 1:06:51Speaker 03

  Every time, oh, my gosh.

• 1:06:52Speaker 00

  I am, anyway, like, it's like, I know what this problem is, this person, this person. You think you're good, I like therapy.

• 1:06:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:57Speaker 00

  And then they start to talk and you're like, oh, they're not here for that, they're here for the other thing. And also, I don't know what I'm talking, you know, like, I, like, we don't know anyone's shit.

• 1:07:09Speaker 03

  I'm not smart, like, I'm not Dr. Orna, like, she has a PhD.

• 1:07:13Speaker 00

  Exactly, like, I love being proven wrong, because I'm always like, that guy is not right for her, and she's too whatever. And then it's like, no, you're not, you're, you're wrong. Like, you're not, you don't know. And the way in which you watch how communicate, how different everybody's communication style.

• 1:07:32Speaker 03

  Styles are.

• 1:07:33Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 1:07:34Speaker 03

  Very different. Everybody should be watching couples therapy.

• 1:07:37Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 1:07:37Speaker 03

  Whether you're in a relationship or not.

• 1:07:39Speaker 00

  Absolutely right.

• 1:07:40Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:07:40Speaker 00

  You learn so much about yourself.

• 1:07:42Speaker 03

  You learn so much, and I think.

• 1:07:43Speaker 00

  And those couples are awesome for participating in it.

• 1:07:45Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, yeah, truly. Because what I also learned is that we all have childhood traumas.

• 1:07:52Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, usually comes out around episode four.

• 1:07:55Speaker 03

  Uh-huh, yeah. And it's never what you expect.

• 1:07:57Speaker 00

  Nope.

• 1:07:59Speaker 03

  Ever.

• 1:08:00Speaker 00

  Nope.

• 1:08:01Speaker 03

  And, and you see how that is playing out in their relationship.

• 1:08:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:05Speaker 03

  And my hope is, and also, you know, I've, I've been therapized, I'm in therapy. I didn't say, "Who am I therapist?" Sorry, everybody, relax. But I, I, I've learned a lot about myself in terms of how I show up as an adult, based on how I was raised. I mean, it's so, it sounds very simple and easy to understand, but you sometimes have to really question your own behavior. Like, why did I do this? Why did I behave this way?

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 1:08:32Speaker 03

  Why am I struggling with boundaries? Like, what is that it? And it's, oh, because I didn't have, well, my mom didn't have boundaries with me when I was a kid. And so now I have to learn that for myself as an adult. Or my, my partner has an abandonment wound. And so when I go quiet, or I leave without saying goodbye.

• 1:08:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:08:48Speaker 03

  It, it triggers her in a way that I wouldn't think it would. And so, and, and that's why I think, um, learning in therapy that vulnerability is a strength. And a lot of people want to protect that. Or I don't want to tell you this, this hard thing. And the thing I learned too is like, truth does no harm. And that, and so I've had to get really honest with like, people I love, or, or say like, hey, this is a part of me that I'm ashamed of, or I'm embarrassed by. But I want to say it out loud and see where you stand. Not to test you, to see if you'll stay. But rather so you know exactly who I am, and you can make an informed decision about whether or not you want to stay.

• 1:09:26Speaker 00

  It's, that's so well said. And, and you, Lena, you just said something that, like, I watch it a lot to just get scripting for how to say things.

• 1:09:37Speaker 03

  Wow, that's good.

• 1:09:38Speaker 00

  Because it's like, sometimes I'll like break the window and there's a door right next to it that's open. Like, you want to get something out, but the way you say it, it's like, it's, it's good practice. Just what you just said, like, hey, I want to share this thing with you and I want to know how you feel about it. Like, just the gentle way into the vulnerability is like, just practice. Because if you don't see it, you know, if you don't see, if you don't have tools or practice to figure out how to talk to people about how you feel, then it just can be like either shocking, or like you said, like we withdraw, or we like over. It's, it's, humans are fascinating.

• 1:10:14Speaker 03

  They, really, and I think that's why I love the show so much. And it's so interesting because, you know, I hear sometimes single people, particularly in this current case, it's single women who have a certain age. And they're like, I'm single, and the only way I want a relationship is if it brings joy to my life, or if it makes me happier. And it's so funny because I always think, that is not how a relationship feels. Like, that's not how that goes. Like, if you're expecting somebody to come and bring just joy and happiness and fun and romance, like, no. It's like, imagine looking in a mirror all the time.

• 1:10:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, a, a, a real, true relationship makes you confront the stuff in yourself.

• 1:10:54Speaker 03

  That you want to run away from.

• 1:10:55Speaker 00

  Totally. We are fascinated with the beginnings of things.

• 1:10:59Speaker 03

  Yes, speak, speak.

• 1:11:01Speaker 00

  We're fascinated with the, like, young people, young love, people falling in love. We're just so into it. And then everybody gets there, and then we never ask them another question again. We never talk to people who've been married for 10 years and like, how's it going? What's going on, whatever? We're just like interested in who people are dating, or when they break up, or whatever. But the middle, the in-between is like, nobody even, nobody talks about it.

• 1:11:25Speaker 03

  They don't.

• 1:11:26Speaker 00

  Nobody asks any questions about it. And it's the same way with like, I'm, I'm finding the same way with like, middle age. Like, people are really fascinated with like, you know, young people on the rise. And they're fascinated with like, the gravitas of being the legend. And you're like, there's a lot of middle here.

• 1:11:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:43Speaker 00

  Where there's a lot of things happening.

• 1:11:45Speaker 03

  That's true. You know, I mean, I'm 42, and so I think.

• 1:11:51Speaker 00

  Little baby, little tiny baby.

• 1:11:54Speaker 00

  42, so cute. No, no, no, 42, 42.

• 1:12:00Speaker 03

  42 is interesting, it's interesting.

• 1:12:03Speaker 00

  Millennials are old now.

• 1:12:05Speaker 03

  I know.

• 1:12:05Speaker 00

  But it's weird.

• 1:12:06Speaker 03

  I feel it. I'm like, I'm a young elder. I'm childless by choice, um, have no desire to raise children. Um, but I think what you're saying in terms of the, the falling, the, the newness of something. I think that to me is something I, I do get a little frustrated with. We romanticize the meet cute.

• 1:12:24Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:12:25Speaker 03

  And, and the meet cute is cool, it's great.

• 1:12:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Speaker 03

  But I think what I'm learning so much is the com- being comfortable in the boredom.

• 1:12:32Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:12:32Speaker 03

  Comfortable in the quiet.

• 1:12:34Speaker 00

  Or how about this, what is contentment? Like, what is contentment, like?

• 1:12:38Speaker 03

  Because familiarity breeds contempt.

• 1:12:39Speaker 00

  That's right. And, oof, we could talk about this forever.

• 1:12:42Speaker 03

  I know, we got to land the plane.

• 1:12:44Speaker 00

  Because there's, there's nothing like, I mean, I'm sure you watch Couples Therapy. We'll, we'll wrap it up by saying Couples Therapy can kind of feel like, almost like a board game, where you're watching after many seasons, and then some, like, a, a person will say something, and their partner will be like, ugh. And roll their eyes, and you're like, and there it is. Couples Therapy is so good.

• 1:13:04Speaker 03

  It's just great. Like, everybody should watch, that's, that's my big thing, Couples Therapy. And I'm trying to think that there's like.

• 1:13:09Speaker 00

  Everybody just watches much therapy as they can.

• 1:13:11Speaker 03

  I know, and like music, I'm trying to think, I don't have my phone, but like, please listen to, um, Thames, T E M S, amazing singer.

• 1:13:19Speaker 00

  Love Thames.

• 1:13:20Speaker 03

  Phenomenal, she's great.

• 1:13:21Speaker 00

  That Lauryn Hill tribute.

• 1:13:22Speaker 03

  Phenomenal.

• 1:13:24Speaker 00

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:13:24Speaker 03

  Lauryn had to get up there, Lauryn said, "I can't let y'all do a tribute without me being a part of it."

• 1:13:27Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:13:28Speaker 03

  She said, "Let me get up here and do my song." One album, but technically people sleep on Unplugged. Go listen to Lauryn Hill, Unplugged, Back with MTV used to do that. I love that album.

• 1:13:36Speaker 00

  Love that record.

• 1:13:37Speaker 03

  Her voice is like, scratchy, and she's real, she's done been through some stuff.

• 1:13:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:41Speaker 03

  It's like, it's the album post-success.

• 1:13:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:44Speaker 03

  Telling you about some shit.

• 1:13:45Speaker 00

  But God, it would have taken, I would have, I wish like, I wish there was like 10 more albums from her.

• 1:13:49Speaker 03

  Because see, here's the deal, we can't demand labor. We have to just, I know, we got to get out of here. I know, I'm probably going to be late for another hang that I was supposed to have. And they're like, what was you doing hanging with Amy? Classic, that's what we would do.

• 1:14:02Speaker 00

  Thank you for coming, doing this, it was so fun.

• 1:14:07Speaker 00

  Thank you so much, Lena Waithe, that was so fun. I could have talked to you forever. And we talked about so many great things. And so for this polar plunge, I just want to remind everybody how incredible Debbie Allen is. If you haven't seen her work, Debbie Allen was, well, she kind of broke into the scene for us anyway, in a, in a show called Fame, where she plays this incredible dance teacher. And Debbie herself is a choreographer, an actress and producer. And she was Lydia Grant, who was telling Leroy to find the soul within him to learn how to dance. And she has, she's, she did a million episodes of A Different World. You can catch her talking to Lena Waithe on her podcast, Legacy Talk. They have an incredible conversation. And she's the sister of Felicia Rashad from The Cosby Show.

• 1:14:52Speaker 00

  I mean, talent family up the wazoo. So Debbie Allen, if you're listening, I love you. Thank you for being so talented in so many things. Thank you for listening, thank you for doing the podcast, Lena, and thanks, everybody, and we'll see you soon, bye.

• 1:15:08Speaker 00

  You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paperkite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaia McMullin, and Aleia Zaniris. For Paperkite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Original music by Amy Miles.

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