The Birth of the Medieval World

Matt Lewis pays a visit to Gone Medieval's sister podcast The Ancients for a lively debate with Tristan Hughes about the blurred boundary between the ancient and medieval worlds. Can Tristan champion Roman Emperor Justinian as an Ancient? What about Charlemagne? Which period can lay claim to the worst year in history? And was there a single moment when people woke up and realised they'd entered a new era? Watch this episode on The Ancients YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@theancientspodcast MORE Why the Early Middle Ages Matter Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/why-the-early-middle-ages-matter/id1564113746?i=1000685286123 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/5p8dCfFlVpRPr9brE59tIP What are the High Middle Ages? Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/what-are-the-high-middle-ages/id1564113746?i=1000711186009 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/5VpSMApHvW8m5Rc6fTb5Z8 Gone Medieval is presented by Matt Lewis. This episode edited by Rob Weinberg. The producers are Rob Weinberg and Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds. Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Matt Lewis?

  From long-lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places, to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr Eleanor Yarnagger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life, only on History Hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:42Speaker 01

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• 1:18Matt Lewis?

  Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. Welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We've got the most intriguing mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and latest groundbreaking research, from the Vikings to the printing press, from kings to popes to the crusades. We cross centuries and continents to delve into rebellions, plots, and murders to find the stories, big and small, that tell us how we got here. Find out who we really were with Gone Medieval.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  Welcome to this episode of Gone Medieval. Today, we've got something for you that we've never done before. I was invited onto our sister podcast, The Ancients, to talk about the blurry, fuzzy boundary between the ancient and medieval worlds with my good friend Tristan Hughes. This is a bit like Ghostbusters crossing the streams. It'll either work, or it'll destroy all of us. We had a robust debate about whether some specific dates and people should be thought of as ancient or medieval. It was interesting to get into the weeds of it and uncover just how unclear the border really is. If you don't listen to The Ancients, then I can't recommend it highly enough. The Tristorian has great guests over there, covering everything from dinosaurs to the fall of Rome. This

• 2:40Speaker 02

  episode is our discussion, and I'd love to hear what you think. Are there other dates or people that we could have included? Should I have thought harder for any of them to be medieval? Let me know after you've enjoyed listening to the episode.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  Welcome to The Ancients. Today, we have a special treat because I am joined by my esteemed, but sometimes confused when it comes to dates, colleague Matt Lewis, historian and host of the Gone Medieval podcast, to have a frank discussion on the most awkward period in Western history. We're talking about a messy, 500-year-long process between 300 and 850 AD, which my people might call the decline and fall of the ancient world, the end of antiquity. His people, however, call it the early Middle Ages. We know this is a deeply nuanced and complex period that evolved uniquely across different places and at different paces. The world didn't just go to sleep one night ancient and wake

• 3:41Speaker 02

  up the next day medieval. Listen, I know that, Matt knows that, you know that. However, our producers want to fight and have placed in my hand a stack of key people and events for us to battle over and claim for our own. We will be debating whether these moments represent collapse or continuity. This could get ugly, but HR is on standby. Matt, great to have you on the show. Are you ready for it? It's fantastic to be here. Let's go. Let's correct some of your theories.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  But also, you're not confused most of the time. It's just, I get competitive when it comes to this time period. How are you feeling?

• 4:20Matt Lewis?

  I've got the bruises to prove I'm competitive, you get.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  Don't say that.

• 4:23Matt Lewis?

  HR, right there.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  That makes me sound very bad. But okay, no, let's go straight into it. So we're going to talk through these dates and discuss, do we think they're ancient, do we think they're medieval, and the whole process behind it.

• 4:35Matt Lewis?

  Fantastic.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  And it is such an interesting period. I must admit, my main area being, I guess, outside doing the general interviews, being much earlier on with like Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic period. But, you know, still being fascinated in actually figuring out when antiquity ends and it being so often linked to ancient Rome and the Roman Empire and when the Middle Ages begins. It's a fascinating kind of period to talk about.

• 4:58Matt Lewis?

  It is. And I'm in the same boat in that if I'm an expert in anything, it's the late medieval period. So I'm working backwards to try and work out how we arrived at the late medieval period. But, you know, we've both spoken to a lot of incredibly clever people about this mushy area in the middle. And I think we can hopefully try and glean what's yours and what's mine. Like you say, we've had fisticuffs before in the office about-

• 5:19Speaker 02

  We have. Stay away from this topic or that topic, isn't it? Always fair in love and war. That's the quote. I think also the fact that this will be our enthusiasts' opinions on the matter. There'll be lots of avenues for disagreement and encourage people to comment and, you know, give their thoughts as well.

• 5:36Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah. Fight us in the comments.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Like, the team have given us a number of cards. I don't know what's on them. I certainly don't know, unless you've had a peek. But my hunch is that there'll probably be a series of dates and statements. And we have to decide whether it's ancient or medieval territory and we can fight it out. So with all that being said, shall we get into it?

• 5:56Matt Lewis?

  Let's get stuck in.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  All right. Okay. This feels like going quite far ahead. An eighth century date, first of all. We've got 732 AD.

• 6:08Matt Lewis?

  You're not having that. Get out.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  I don't think I can claim that anyway. And it's got the Battle of Tours and Charles Martell. So this is-

• 6:18Speaker 02

  Very much early medieval territory. I'm not going to fight this one.

• 6:21Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, so we're on the verge of the emergence of a Frankish nation and those kinds of ideas. The coming together of those fractured, small kingdoms that had emerged after the fall of Rome. And Charles Martel is fighting battles against Islam, coming in from southern Spain and all of those kinds of things as well. So there's a little bit in there about the friction between Christianity and Islam early on. A little bit about defining nationhood and all of that kind of thing. But I feel like that's firmly medieval territory and you need to back off.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Completely. You've had the spread of Islam already, haven't you? And, you know, all the way to Morocco and then into Spain. If there were any Frankish leaders who I could contest and maybe say is in the ancient world still, maybe Clovis? Early on in the forming of the Frankish Kingdom. But you're right, isn't it? It's that transition from that mosaic of different barbarian Visigoths, Bergundians, Frankish kingdoms into something the more powerful, like the Frankish Kingdom that becomes France.

• 7:18Matt Lewis?

  And I guess maybe you would put it in there because this is when the map of Western Europe starts to look a little bit more like something we would recognise. You can almost plot France on a map and that kind of thing. But I feel like there is a lot of medieval territory to get there.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  There's a statement here, it's like, "Sets in stone the borders of medieval Western Europe." Do you think that's fair with the Battle of Tours, how seismic it is?

• 7:39Matt Lewis?

  I mean, they're always moving a little bit, but it is, in terms of, you know, the Muslims who were in southern Spain will remain there for 700 years after this battle. So it does settle the limits of where Islam is encroaching into southern Iberia. And as I say, around the time of Charles Martel, you've got something that looks very much like France beginning to emerge. But nothing else is very settled yet, I don't think.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  No, completely. I don't think we need to hand any more time on this because I'm not contesting it. That's yours. There you go. You can take it. But you get the Ancients logo on there.

• 8:10Matt Lewis?

  We're keeping score. Is that 1-0?

• 8:12Speaker 02

  I guess that's 1-0. I think that's not really fair though, so 2-0. Well, let's see what the next one is. Okay, this is more interesting, and this is one I certainly will fight for. Four hundred and seventy-six A.D. Now, does that ring a bell?

• 8:24Matt Lewis?

  So that's the fall of the Roman Empire?

• 8:26Speaker 02

  Fall of the Western Roman Empire. Well, it's the date of, I mean, the last Roman emperor in the West, Romulus Augustius, giving up his throne, abdicating to Oduaça. And then, like, there was no further Western Roman emperor. But of course, the Roman Empire does continue at pace in the East. I think it's Emperor Zeno who's ruling at the time. And Oduaça, of all people, actually then seeks kind of, almost dare I say, permission from the Emperor Zeno, you know, and what to do in Italy. So there's still very much respect to that Roman rule there in the East, and it's still as strong as ever, which is why I say, I would say that this is still ancient history. There's a tendency to say that, is this actually the cutoff point? If people want to pinpoint a date for the fall of the Western Roman Empire, four seventy-six

• 9:10Speaker 02

  A.D. is the traditional date.

• 9:12Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, it's one of those really convenient pins in the map that you can put on a timeline and you can just hang the division between ancient and medieval on that. But if I was to suggest that that's becoming a medieval period, I would suggest that we have previously had problems for Rome. Rome has been sacked, Rome is already a lame duck. It's just waiting to be put out of its misery, I guess.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  Completely. I remember talking to Dr David Gwynne about this in another filmed episode on the origins of the fall of Rome, a series we did earlier this year. And also Adrian Goldsworthy, he talked about this as well. Basically highlighting, as you say, the emperor's a lame duck by this point. It's the power of the federati, you know, these people who are, you know, are in the service of these figureheads. But they've had power for some time and they just, Oduaça just decides there's actually no need for this little kid anymore. But it's certainly not the end of ancient history, I would argue, at that time, because there's no kind of dissolution of Roman beliefs or values. The mosaic of kingdoms that emerges in Western Europe at that time, as we talk about, the

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Visigoths in Spain, you ultimately get the Ostrogoths and Theodoric the Great in Italy and Clovis in the Franks. They've still got clearly like kind of embracing of Roman values and ideas, you know, there's no kind of clear cutoff point. The only exception to that, we might suppose later, is Britain, where there is a clearer cutoff point. So I would say that... The whole of the fifth century, if we're taking a Eurocentric view, which I think we largely will be with terms like medieval and ancient, aren't we? In that sphere, I would argue that the whole of the fifth century on the continent, European continent at least, is still ancient history.

• 10:52Matt Lewis?

  It's a tricky one though, isn't it? Because what leads to Rome falling in 476, it's the emergence of a different mindset, a different way of doing things that has been attacking Rome for decades by this point. So something has changed, something in the way that people are living has changed. And I think it's important, we are going to be mainly in Western Europe, the medieval period is a term for Western Europe really, and we're not talking about everyone going to bed wearing togas and waking up in the morning and thinking, well, that's stupid, I'm going to put some hose on and dress completely differently. It's not like an overnight thing, but if I was going to make a claim on 476 tipping over into the medieval world, it's that it's a medieval mindset that has already emerged

• 11:36Matt Lewis?

  that is causing Rome to be dragged down.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  That is a good point, and maybe that kind of harkens back to the overarching idea that it is a transitional phase, you know, over a long period of time. It is complicated, it's complex, and maybe 476, well, actually, almost likely, certainly, it's nearer the beginning than the end of that whole transitional phase, I'd argue, which will go into the sixth century as well, I'm sure we'll visit it in time. So as you're right, the forming of the medieval world is certainly there by this point with those kingdoms like the Visigoths and the Franks and so on, but I wouldn't say that this is clear-cut medieval like that one is. So I would say that yes, maybe it is in the transitional phase, but I would still put it in ancient territory.

• 12:20Matt Lewis?

  I'll give you a one all.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  A one all, okay, okay.

• 12:24Matt Lewis?

  I mean, you're a Birmingham City fan, so you need every help you can get.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  So good. Hundred and eleven points last season, not so good this season. Too used to winning, that's the problem. Right, shall we move on to the next one?

• 12:36Matt Lewis?

  What have we got?

• 12:38Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm a bit more confident about this one. We're going back to the third century, so 286 AD. So a bit of context, because I know this is really out of your comfort zone. Okay, this is known as the end of the third century crisis. So this is a time, kind of a period roughly of 50 years, where you've had more than 25 emperors rise and fall. I think only one dies of natural causes, the rest are done away with either assassinations, poisonings, or killed in battle and usurpers and so on. It's epitomised as a period of great instability, where the Roman Empire could easily have fallen, and was close to falling. And there were certain points in the third century where the Roman Empire is divided into three. When you've got breakaway states like Palmyra in the east with Zenobia,

• 13:22Speaker 02

  and the Gallic Empire, Britain as well is cut away. But it holds together, because you do see, and once again, this is largely regurgitating the work of the brilliant Dr. David Gwynne, who did a lovely interview about this. You have the works of figures like two particular emperors, Gallienus and Aurelian, who work hard to kind of reform and sort out the empire when it's at its weakest in the 260s and 70s, and it unites. So the Roman Empire does come through this period of crisis. And arguably, well, not arguably at all, by the time you do get to the fourth century, it's stronger than ever. And everyday Rome wouldn't have thought that their empire was in decline at that point.

• 14:02Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, I was gonna make the, well, I was gonna ask the question as to whether that could be viewed as the beginning of the end, if it was a moment of crisis that saw a lot of reshaping. But if the Roman Empire is coming out of it stronger, I guess it's more difficult for me to position it as the beginning of the end, and perhaps the beginning of the emergence of the Middle Ages.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  No, but you are kind of right, because this is kind of the clear cut-off point where we say like, now, this is late antiquity, right? You know, this is away from your time of your Marcus Aurelius's, your Septimius Severus's, Trajan Hadrian. This is a time when Christianity is about to come to the fore. You have More clear-cut divisions of power, I would argue as well. There's more often than not times where you have multiple emperors. The end of the third century is defined by the tetrarchy, which is Diocletian dividing the empire first into two, senior Augusti, and then into four with two junior rulers as well.

• 14:53Matt Lewis?

  Which in some ways is a precedent for what will come later with the splintering of small petty kingdoms emerging. You've suddenly got this idea that there isn't one single figure who rules over everything in a divinely appointed kind of way. There is an idea that there can be a separation of all of that and that there can be more than one ruler ruling over this whole territory, which is where the medieval mind gets to with the splintering of all of this and all the small petty kingdoms where the Roman Empire smashes apart. It's like a thousand pieces of glass and eventually it starts being pieced together.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, there will be some exceptions. I mean, the rule of Constantine the Great, of course, Theodosius the Great as well. But usually they find that the empire is just too big, that one person can't deal with it, the fracturing of it. And yes, that will then just kind of go to the next level as you get to the fifth century. And then, you know, it's funny, this idea of breakaway states is nothing new to the Romans by the time they get to the fourth century. As I mentioned, Britain earlier, look at Corozius, who led a breakaway state in Britain right around this time, 286. But as you say, it just becomes more, I guess, the norm.

• 15:58Matt Lewis?

  It sounds like there's a recognition from the centre as well. Rather than it being someone breaking away and Rome needing to drag them back into compliance, there's a recognition at the centre in Rome that more than one person is maybe needed to rule all of this.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Yes, and then sometimes there are times where like they have too much on their plate that they can't, I mean, Roman Britain, look to your own defences and all that kind of stuff, right? Siagrius in northern France.

• 16:19Matt Lewis?

  Sounds dangerously medieval.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  Yes. This is the problem with dates, because if I then said, you've also put a good argument there for like, you know, you can see kind of formations of medieval world even back in in the late third century. But if I've already gone for four, seven, six, we'd have to renegotiate if you then say that this is medieval. I don't think that'd be quite fair, but what do you think about it?

• 16:41Matt Lewis?

  That's going to have to be an ancient date, but I think it really plays into this idea that it's a much longer transition than we think it is, that it's going to become harder and harder to hang it off one date, whether that's four, seven, six or any other date. We're looking at a whole period of cultural, societal, political change and evolution.

• 17:02Matt Lewis?

  Rather than a single cut off dates can make it make the rest of this chat quite tricky.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  I mean completely. And I'd also argue a transition, but getting out of this linear idea that it's a downward decline consistently. The transition, you could argue, is starting by the end of the third century and into the fourth century. But Rome is, yes, although there's the division of power, yes, the army's different to the one you might think from Gladiator and the like. But is it actually weaker? You can argue absolutely not. You know, the amount of, you know, it's still a strong entity. It is just changing in its format. Key period, which will ultimately you will see evidence of enduring into the medieval world. Right. Okay. Onto the next one. So

• 17:45Speaker 02

  four, 10 A D. So this is one where we can kind of, we can negotiate stuff around if we feel we need to. Do you know anything about four, 10 A D?

• 17:53Matt Lewis?

  Is this the sack of Rome?

• 17:54Speaker 02

  It is the sack of Rome, the first.

• 17:56Matt Lewis?

  A sack of Rome.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  A sack of Rome.

• 17:58Matt Lewis?

  You can do it more than once, surely.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Psychologically, this is the hammer blow. Like this is the first time Rome has been sacked in some 700 years. Since the Gauls under a guy called Brenus in around three, 90 B C. Right? So Rome has forged an empire in that time in the republican period. It's defeated all the old great enemies like Hannibal, the Macedonians, Cleopatra, Augustus, the Trajan, all those big names have existed in that more than half a century. Since Rome itself was assaulted and, you know, kind of subjected to a military attack in what the Romans would have considered ancient history.

• 18:38Matt Lewis?

  And is this the Vandals? It's four, 10, the Vandals?

• 18:40Speaker 02

  Wash your mouth out with soap. How dare you? No. This is the Goths.

• 18:45Matt Lewis?

  The Goths.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Visigoths, I guess you could say, well, Visigoths is more later. We just say the Goths. The Vandals is later though, and you do hit an important point. I think that's four, five, six. But Rome is sacked twice in the period of 50 years. And actually, that vandal sack of Rome by Gaiseric and the Vandals is worse than the 410 sack in regards to the devastation and destruction. But the 410 one by Alaric and his followers is, as it's psychologically, a hammer blow because it's that first time Rome has actually been attacked and sacked. I don't think the sacking is that brutal. I'm sure people will disagree. I said, I'm not a leading expert. I'm just trying to remember what David Gwynn told me, as he's one of the leading lights in this, and Peter Heather as well. We interviewed both pretty recently on it.

• 19:30Matt Lewis?

  But it's the fact of Rome being sacked, not how badly it was sacked. It's the fact that there is now a rival making its way into the very heart of the Roman Empire, which again, as we talked about with 476, this plays into the idea that something has already changed and happened for the Goths to be there to assault Rome. Are the Goths a medieval people? Because if there are medieval people attacking Rome, are we in the medieval world?

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Well, are the Goths a medieval people? I don't think you could say that. But it's like the beginning of a trend of mass migrations into the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire's dealt with migrations before and, you know, brought people in. There's been trouble on the frontiers before. They've always brought people in, but it's the scale of them now that's, you know, sending them over the edge. Poor decision making as well. I mean, the reason that Alaric and the Goths ultimately end up there is they've already had a quite a gazump, I'm sorry to say, or a blitz around the Balkans and the Eastern Roman Empire, the defeat of the Valens at the Battle of Adrianople a few decades earlier. But the point I was going to say is it's not that brutal a sacking. You know, they don't attack the churches. The Goths are Christian.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  Alaric had been trying to avoid a sack of Rome. He'd been negotiating with the emperor. The emperor's not there. Rome has lost its kind of, part of its importance is gone by the early 5th century. Ravenna and Milan have been kind of new centres of power for the rulers in the West. Rome is symbolic. It's the symbolic nature of it that is so devastating. But I think there's a point there in the fact that, you know, it is the start of a trend.

• 20:57Matt Lewis?

  It feels like maybe 410 is the alarm clock going off and the Roman Empire kind of rolling over and hitting snooze.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 21:03Matt Lewis?

  But maybe they should have woken up a bit earlier.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  I think so. Well, whether they could have, because of course by 410, you've also got other groups crossing the Rhine a couple of years earlier. Does Rome have the capacity in the West to deal with all these different threats? You have the Huns as well. They'll also invade Italy. Attila will invade Italy as well for a bit as well. So as you say, it's the start of a process where Italy is no longer the safe area, you know, no one can touch. It's the flourishing centre. It does hammer away the invincible nature of Rome and this idea, which I think was very much there in most people's minds, apart from a select few, I think Augustus of Hippo's one. No one could fathom the Roman Empire falling, you know, it just wasn't in the vocabulary.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  And then this maybe sets a few more alarm bells ringing that maybe we're seeing the transition into something different, which maybe could that kind of go into the point of a medieval world coming.

• 21:55Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah. The medieval world is coming for Rome and this is entering Rome, sacking Rome and proving itself a rival for Rome.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Have you got any other thoughts on this from your medieval mindset?

• 22:06Matt Lewis?

  It's tricky, isn't it? I mean, I guess part of the question is what are we talking about changing when we think about changing to the medieval world? And there's a degree to which it's about a little bit of trade and commerce and stuff as well in that it feels to me as a complete non-expert, like Rome has become the centre of consumption, but it produces absolutely nothing. So we're moving to an economy in which rather than rich people producing everything that they need on their own villas and estates and buying in everything from abroad, we're changing to a place in which people are indulging in commerce and trade on a much wider scale and producing things and making things. And has that happened yet? I don't think it has.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  I think you're quite right. I think, but it is just one of those standout dates, isn't it, that we often associate with the end of ancient Rome? And I'm as guilty as anyone to love a solid date to something. So if you wanted to pinpoint a date, we talked earlier about 476 being like the end of the Roman Empire in the West. I think four ten is another one of those because, as you say, nothing completely different has changed as such. The Goths will go away, but they will then pave out their own kingdom in southern France. You know, that lays the future for the Visigoths in Spain, right? And so that's very medieval times. From my perspective, it'll be interesting to see what people think. Four seven six, if you did an episode on four seven six on

• 23:29Speaker 02

  Gone Medieval, I might be like, uh, okay, but I get it. I completely understand it because I can see the point being made that, you know, it's a date which we pinpoint to the end of antiquity. It's certainly now actually within that transitional phase to what we see as the medieval times. Four ten, I'd probably be a bit like, not sure about that.

• 23:50Matt Lewis?

  It's almost like you doing an episode about the worst year to be alive in the sixth century.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Maybe we'll get to that in a bit. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're quite right. Or even maybe events in the early seventh century in West Asia.

• 24:03Matt Lewis?

  I think I'm gonna have to let you keep that one, though. I think I'm gonna have to take another hit on this.

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• 24:45Speaker 04

  After civil war, regicide and Cromwell's Republic, the monarchy returned. But Britain would never be the same. I'm Professor Sisana Lipscomb, and this month on Not Just the Tudors, we're transported back to the age of Restoration royalty, from Charles II to Queen Anne and the birth of the Empire. Join me on Not Just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  And lo and behold, another card has appeared. Emperor Justinian. Yeah, this is all bets are off, fisticuffs. You could be coming for me with this one. Yeah, make your case.

• 25:38Matt Lewis?

  We've done an episode on medieval.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  Oh, is that it?

• 25:40Matt Lewis?

  The wonderful Peter Saris. That is my case. Hand it over. Justinian is a really, really interesting one. So Byzantine Emperor, effectively Emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire. So we have to concede here that the Roman Empire still exists in its eastern form. Justinian is really interesting. He, he goes through phases of trying to recapture the Roman Empire, but only parts of it that are economically important. So around the Mediterranean fringe, the south of Spain and Italy and the north of Africa. He seems to have recognised that you need to cut some of the provinces loose that aren't bringing in enough money. And he focuses his efforts on getting back definitely Italy, which is, you know, the spiritual heart of the Roman Empire. But the rest of his efforts are focused on the bits that make money.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  North Africa, isn't it? That area, yeah.

• 26:27Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, and southern Spain. And he's really keen to get those back in order to fund his own imperial exercise in the east. Justinian is really interesting though, because I think we have someone here who is thoroughly and devotedly Christian in a very medieval sense. So lots of the early doctrine that we get and lots of the early theological debates about medieval Christianity come from Justinian's court. What we think of largely as a lot of Roman law and jurisprudence is what Justinian distills it down to. And it again emerges from his court. So Justinian law will form the basis of European civil law for more than a millennium after him.

• 27:11Matt Lewis?

  You know, it's still the basis of some systems of civil law in Europe today. So here is a man who is, you know, literally sitting in his office with a bit of paper, designing the medieval world.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  So interesting, isn't it? God, when you put it like that, it's, he is seismic for that change and everything he goes to as well. It almost feels like. Part of it, he is harkening back to the ancient Roman heyday and so reclaiming those lands, seeing him just as the clear successor. But him personally transforming the world around him.

• 27:45Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And his background, I think, is interesting as well. You know, he's a, he comes from an incredibly impoverished family in the Balkans. His uncle goes off to the imperial court, rises in the imperial guard, calls for his nephew, you know, I can get him a, a job over here, get him a good education. And so he rises from complete obscurity and poverty to become the emperor of the Byzantine empire. And there's a medieval story in that because what is the, the early medieval period, but the fight for the right to rule everywhere, where almost anybody, if you're smart enough or strong enough, can become a king.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  I would argue you can see that also, though, in the late period of ancient history as well with usurpers and the like. But, but maybe, as you say, Justinian is just another, like a case of that to an extreme because of how powerful, you know, an empire he rules. It is interesting to think of whether the change from antiquity to medieval period, you're kind of really, you really see a big spark in that during Justinian's reign and by infamous events like the Justinian plague, the plague Justinian that breaks out because of how devastating it is, because of how something like that's, well, it is a, a Black Death plague, isn't it? Carried by the fleas on rats and it's

• 29:05Matt Lewis?

  What's more medieval than a plague?

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, that's the thing, but it does, I mean, the law code and everything as well. Yeah, I'm no expert on this, but it does feel that you have those, that conglomeration of game changing events that happen in his long reign, that you do see

• 29:22Speaker 02

  Rome is never the same again, in a way, right?

• 29:25Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. I would also concede here that the ancient world kind of never goes away in the medieval world. Medieval people would never have called themselves medieval, they wouldn't have been looking for dates like this. They see a degree of continuity and they are obsessed with ancient Rome, with the architecture, with building in stone as a projection of power that never, ever goes away. Particularly later in the medieval period when they, Western Europe comes back into contact with ancient Greek and Roman writings after the Crusades. They are absolutely obsessed with all of that. And we get Romanesque architecture, building castles and churches because they're obsessed. So it isn't that people suddenly turn away from the ancient world. The question is, is this a medieval man living in an ancient world? Or ancient man living in a medieval world?

• 30:10Speaker 02

  That's so interesting.

• 30:10Matt Lewis?

  And I would argue that he is a medieval man who is reshaping his empire to fit with the new medieval world that is around him.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  I think that's spot on. I can see the logic of that, but I can't say I think that's spot on from a degree of authority, but I can see what you mean. It is the case, isn't it? When I think of Justinian, I might also think of the Nica riots. But, you know, of course, that's a chariot race, isn't it? It was from a chariot race and you think chariots, you think ancient Rome. So you can see the ancient element still there. I think Belisarius is sometimes dubbed like the last Roman, but there's always so many people who are dubbed the last Roman. But in like, kind of, I think, a classical ancient sense, that last attempt to retake those former Roman lands in the heartlands of North Africa and Sicily and Italy, and the success it brings. You know, for a time, they retake Rome, I think, five, three, six.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  So symbolically, 60 years after the deposition of Romulus Augustulus. So there's a clear link there. I hope I've got my dates right there. So there's something very symbolic there. An idea to say, oh no, we're going to get things back to normal. You know, you've had these Ostrogoths in Italy, but we're back now.

• 31:22Matt Lewis?

  I think with Justinian, what you get is a desire to still connect with all of that from the past, but a recognition that there's now a new way of doing everything.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  And the fact that, you know. It doesn't last because you have all those other new powers who are much stronger than they were before, North of the Alps, the Lombards and Franks and so on and so forth, who, you know, kind of makes that not be the case, that they lose Italy quite soon afterwards. I think I can give you this. I think so. I think that's more. I have no regrets about doing 541 AD, the worst year in history, on the Ancients podcast, because I think you can say that there is still an ancient world before the bubonic plague.

• 31:59Matt Lewis?

  And I think Justinian is an interesting figure to hang a discussion around the fact that that transition from ancient to medieval must happen in different places, at different times, at different paces. Again, we're not talking about, you know, the sun goes down on one day on an ancient world and rises on a medieval one.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, completely. Shall we do the next one?

• 32:18Matt Lewis?

  Let's go for it.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  Oh, this should be quite easy. Charlemagne. I'm not claiming him.

• 32:23Matt Lewis?

  You don't want to.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  No, not at all. When is he? How much further on is he?

• 32:28Matt Lewis?

  So we're around 800 here. His coronation in the year 800. And I guess why he's in there is because he will have himself crowned as a Roman emperor. You know, he is making the first maybe serious effort to reconfigure, to rebuild what was once the Western Roman Empire. You know, he has what we would call today all of kind of Germany to France and all of the bits and pieces in between. He brings all of those back together and is keen to identify himself as a successor to Rome. So clearly in Charlemagne's mind, the ancient world still means something. It's something that you still want to recapture.

• 33:08Matt Lewis?

  It still symbolizes power and authority and continuity and certainty and strength and all of those things that a king and emperor will want to project. But again, is he just using all of those notions to give him a step up in the medieval world?

• 33:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that just further affirms that this is very much a medieval period because they're harkening back to the memory of something now gone. And also, who crowned Charlemagne?

• 33:34Matt Lewis?

  The Pope.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  The Pope, exactly. Something completely alien to ancient rulers, I'd say. So I've not disputed that at all. He's clearly a medieval figure. I guess one of the big titans of early medieval history, right?

• 33:46Matt Lewis?

  He is. He's absolutely huge and, you know, engaging in thoroughly medieval battles, what we would recognise as medieval battles.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  How big are these battles? Are they on the scale of ancient Rome?

• 33:58Matt Lewis?

  Probably not, no. We're in a time pit. It's hard to get numbers for medieval battles. It's probably easier for some Roman battles than it is for some medieval battles. They're notoriously bad at giving us numbers and so it gets really, really difficult to pin them down. But you're in this kind of period, you're quite often talking about handfuls of knights on horses. You know, it could be 20, 30 people who are the serious elite involved in the fighting here. So you're talking about small scale battles most often. Charlemagne does, you know, he's, again, he's working to push back the Islamic presence in southern Iberia. So, you know, he's recognising that there are boundaries to his empire and wanting to push back and push around. I think he, he's using the ancient world, but he's a medieval man.

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• 36:05Speaker 02

  I think this also harkens to another thing that I commonly associate with medieval versus ancient, which is the clear decline in army size and like the complexities of certain military exercises and campaigns. Now, I can't say that, you know, for everything because I don't know, but from an outsider looking in, it feels like when you get to the early medieval period that the armies, they're not on the scale of earlier Roman imperial expeditions against Parthia or Sassanian Persia and the like, which, as you said, is that testament to that new, I'm not using the dreaded F-word feudal word at all there because that's me being an idiot, but maybe, you know, the systems of power, right?

• 36:45Matt Lewis?

  I mean, you can use the F-word, but I think the key thing there is that the key marker is that Rome has a standing army paid for by the empire. Throughout the medieval period, you simply don't have countries till very, very late having anything that resembles a standing army. You're raising the feudal levies, you're calling in people who owe you allegiance and owe you military service to act as your army. So there's a clear divide there, I think, between the ancient world where regimes had standing armies that they trained and paid for and could deploy wherever they wanted to, and the medieval world where this is a much more kind of makeshift, you don't incur the cost of a huge standing army.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  Do you think that's also what makes Belisarius's expedition to North Italy and Italy ultimately so remarkable? Because it feels like an ancient history military expedition, you know, but in a changing world. But this idea that you could send, I mean, you might not see it until maybe the Crusades later or something like that, where you can get an army from a power, you know, to ferry across the Mediterranean and then start a campaign afresh. I'm harkening back also to doing Rome II Total War and the Belisarius campaign, but I hope you know what I mean. It's that idea that- Such an idea may feel unfathomable to early medieval periods. I'm sure they're like the Normans and Sisley might be a contrast, but I don't know, but.

• 38:10Matt Lewis?

  But it does lean into, again, what we're saying, that the ancient world hasn't gone away. People are recognizing that there's a need to do things in a new and different way, but that doesn't mean you can't try the old stuff. You know, throughout the medieval period, the prevailing military wisdom is Vegetius from the end of the Roman Empire. They will completely and utterly lean on him till the end of the medieval period. So there is still a recognition that the ancient world knew how to do some things.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  Very true. All right. Well, let's keep going on. Okay, this is an interesting one. Emperor Constantine, so early 4th century.

• 38:39Matt Lewis?

  Wait, did you just steal Charlemagne?

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, sorry, I did. My bad. That's yours. Yeah, that wouldn't look good, would it? Uh, you've got your three there. You've got Justinian, Charlemagne, and Battle of Tours. Okay, good. I've got my power here. Um, yes, Emperor Constantine. What main achievements? Yes, the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. What's he most associated with? Christianity. And it will always be debated, you know, why he embraces Christianity and the Milvian Bridge, the Cairo story, Eusebius, and so on. But he does, he's part of the tetrarchy, that rule of four that I mentioned earlier, but then, after a series of civil wars, becomes the sole ruler of the Roman Empire in the 4th century. Obviously, his other big legacy

• 39:22Speaker 02

  is the founding of Constantinople, the renaming of Byzantium to Constantinople, and then making his own seat of power. Although it will not straight away be like the great centre of the Roman Empire. Once again, David Gwynne, Encyclopedia on this stuff, saying how Thedosis the Great, so much later in the 4th century, is more that Constantinople is clearly the centre. But the question here is, like, does he lay the foundations, I guess, for the Eastern Roman, the Byzantine Empire?

• 39:51Matt Lewis?

  I would be tempted, controversially, to make a hard play for Constantine.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  Would you? Interesting. So you're going to make a play for 328, you know, early 4th century?

• 40:00Matt Lewis?

  In that, what is the medieval period but the story of the emergence and the ascendancy of the Roman church? The adoption of Christianity is the beginning of that process. And when I said earlier that, you know, as far as I'm aware, you know, Rome has this economy that doesn't kind of produce and export anything, the sudden realisation that it needs to produce and export something comes along. And what does it export? It exports religion, Christianity. And who starts that? Constantine does. Here is a man who is realising that Rome needs to change. And here is the man who gives it its main export.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  Well, he was a man who realised that Rome needs to change, even though Christians are just like 5% of the empire's population at the time.

• 40:40Matt Lewis?

  Because ahead of his time.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Well, I know, I think he's, David Potter, interviewed, one of the first interviews I ever did on the podcast, but I remember him saying this, mentioning how he thinks Constantine was hedging his bets. You know, you'll see coins, you know, he's clear linked to Christianity, only gets baptised when he's on his deathbed. So in the 330s, you also have coins of Constantine, I think it's with Sol and Victus and the like. So it's, I'd still say it's a transitional phase. I get what you mean though.

• 41:07Matt Lewis?

  But he's also set, he's set in motion.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 41:09Matt Lewis?

  The things that will ultimately define the medieval period.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  He does. I think you could do a legacy of Constantine and that would be medieval because he's such a big figure. I couldn't say, I would not be allowed to get away with saying that Constantine the Great is a medieval figure ahead of his time because he's still very much in that imperial system. He reverts to one man rule of the entire empire and he's successful largely because there aren't any big threats from the Persians or on the Rhine at that time.

• 41:39Matt Lewis?

  Although I'd also say someone who's, you know, there's a couple of other kings around him until he beats them up and becomes sole ruler is very medieval.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Would you? Well, yeah, but Rome also has precedence for doing that with, you know, rival claimants for the throne. You've got so many civil wars.

• 41:54Matt Lewis?

  I just feel like you're getting too many here, am I? Just making a bid for Constantine.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  Put him in the middle. In the middle. All right, fine. You'd have to think very carefully how you did a golden medieval episode about Constantine the Great, that's all I'll say.

• 42:06Matt Lewis?

  Otherwise you'd ambush me in the office again.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  Who did what? This is a very interesting one though. So 628, 630s, West Asia, which, you know, is the Arab conquests, the rise of Islam.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  Would you like to say something first about it?

• 42:26Matt Lewis?

  I think this is perhaps one of the most interesting things because I think lots of people will immediately think that has to be medieval. But the rise of Islam on the borders of the Eastern Roman Empire is fascinating because the medieval world, like I say, after the Crusades, when the medieval world in Western Europe comes back into contact with lots of the teachings of Rome and Greece, they get that from their Muslim enemies. And I think the Muslims would argue there's this kind of mini-enlightenment in Western Europe when all of that knowledge and power comes back. I think Muslims in the Near East would argue that they never forgot all of that ancient

• 43:07Matt Lewis?

  wisdom in the way that Western Europe had. They come into contact with the Eastern Roman Empire, and as far as they're concerned, it's still the Roman Empire. I think there are lots of ways, as much as I hate shooting myself in the foot, I think there are lots of interesting ways in which the Arab world has a stronger connection to the ancient world than medieval Europe does by this point.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  It's interesting because they say we're doing that geographic shift, aren't we? This is the first one where we're kind of talking beyond Europe and the Mediterranean Basin. And you do make the point how, you know, before that, you have a situation in West Asia that has been there for centuries. The fact that you've got west of the Euphrates, the Romans, and east of the Euphrates, the Persians, right? And it's been that kind of fighting back and forth for centuries, whether it's Sassanians, Parthians, well, those are the main two with the Romans, aren't they? So it is very interesting that you have that context of you can argue two ancient superpowers. So when we did do this episode

• 44:16Speaker 02

  on the ancients recently, we kind of framed it as such, you know, this is the story of the fall of one of those superpowers in the Sassanian Persians, and also the continued, well, you know, the decline of another one, west of the Euphrates, and the story how that power balance, two superpowers ruling Mesopotamia, Syria area.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  That thing that's been there forever and people expected, you know, would just return to as it had been before is completely derailed by the Arab conquests, by the taking of Persia, by the uniting of both sides of the Euphrates under one caliphate.

• 44:58Matt Lewis?

  Because I think the tricky thing is, if you said 635 and the rise of Islam, people would say medieval. If you said a rising Arab superpower that fights the Persian Empire and the Roman Empire, that sounds incredibly ancient.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  I think it stretches both, which once again shows how permeable medieval ancient is and you can't put a direct date on it. But the fact is, you know, the spread of Islam so quickly and those armies after that, Egypt, and then as you mentioned earlier, all the way ultimately to Morocco and southern Spain, that is clearly medieval.

• 45:28Matt Lewis?

  So if we conceded Constantine belongs somewhere in the middle, do we think this probably belongs somewhere in the middle as well?

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, go on then, I think so. But it's funny, isn't it? Once again, it shows how you've got someone from the 4th century there, someone from the 7th century there. I will always say that Constantine is still ancient, but I can see that the conception of it potentially being there. But last one, we got, last one is, got to do a quick fire. But this is a bit of a curve ball, but we've been talking about how we've been focusing on Europe and West Asia. Mesoamerica. Does ancient medieval crossover, does it apply to Mesoamerica?

• 46:07Matt Lewis?

  I don't think it can.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  I don't think it can either.

• 46:09Matt Lewis?

  It's so tricky because I think if you said Aztecs and Mayans, people would think you're talking about ancient civilizations.

• 46:16Speaker 02

  Oh, I disagree. I think Aztecs know because they have direct contact with the Spanish. Aztecs and Inca, I would never, I would hesitate against doing on the ancients podcast because I think it's so, you know, it's within 600, 700 years or so, isn't it?

• 46:32Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  But the others, yes. I don't know.

• 46:35Matt Lewis?

  But it's tricky then to put a date on, when do you medievalise that? Because you can talk, you know, late 15th century when Europeans arrived, but that's suggesting that somehow the Europeans are bringing something new and brilliant rather than destroying what's already there. So I think it's, South America and the Americas are one of those places where it's really, really difficult to periodise history in the same way as we do in Europe.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  Because you've done Cahokia, haven't you? And I must admit Cahokia in North America, you know, great urban mound and a great city, wasn't it, in North America? You know, is one I would. I have thought once in a while about doing, but I still think it was too far ahead that I hesitated to do it and say it was ancient history.

• 47:15Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. It feels like it should be medieval, but that's us sitting in Europe, probably projecting our ideas across. And, and you know, there are places like China, Japan, that we could talk about where they just simply wouldn't recognise the periodisation of history that we use in, in Western Europe. And I think probably the Americas is the same.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  But it's interesting with China and India's other ones. China is like, sometimes they love a big date. You'll put like the end of the Han Dynasty, so third century or the beginning of the Tang. One of those dynasties, that's the medieval period. So in India, they might say it's the fall of the Guptas. And then that from that is, is the time of the medieval period. So it almost feels like there's more clear cut because of that Eurasian landmass. Yeah. And there is connection. I think that that is more easy to put a pinpoint between ancient medieval with India and China, whereas Mesoamerica, different.

• 48:04Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. Yeah. I think China, the Tang Dynasty in the seventh century starts to feel very, very medieval. That very quickly moves its way. The, the principles are back to Japan as well. And they get the Taika reforms in Japan in the kind of mid seventh century. And it starts to feel much more like a feudal, what we might recognise as a medieval society. But again, it's just tricky to do it everywhere, all at once.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  Well, that's it. I will, we'll put that as, as once again, a kind of an undecided one in the middle. How do you feel?

• 48:34Matt Lewis?

  What's the, what's the scores? The only important thing.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  Well, I've got three. I would claim constant time. I'm going to put constant time there.

• 48:39Matt Lewis?

  Score draw.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Fine. We'll do a score. All right. All right. Diplomat again to the, to the chat. But yeah, that was good fun.

• 48:45Matt Lewis?

  I think it's been really interesting and very, very interesting to actually think about some people who you might think of as medieval, might have actually lived before people that you think of as, or events that you think of as ancient.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:56Matt Lewis?

  And just how blurry and porous that border between us is. So maybe you should stop beating me up in the office and we should just be friends.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  I know, I know. I'm just too competitive in that regard. But no, it's been great. And finally, we've had you on the podcast, my friend. And, um, you know, it's always nice to do a history crossover when we can, especially for time period podcasts where it's more difficult to get those crossovers. But it feels like a, a nice topic to do. Friendly conversation and lots of room for people to debate. So let us know your thoughts in the comments, because I'm sure you've got quite a lot. Matt, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time.

• 49:32Matt Lewis?

  It's been an absolute joy. Thank you, Tristan.

• 49:36Matt Lewis?

  I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Let me know on social media somewhere if there's another date or person that we could have hung this transition on, or if I should have laid firmer claim to any of the dates and people that we did discuss. The Ancients has just launched a brand new YouTube channel, so you can now watch this and other great episodes with Tristan. So if you head over there right now, you'll see just how close to blows we actually came. You can give the video a like and subscribe to the channel so that we can propel Tristan to the YouTube stardom he deserves. You can find some episodes with Eleanor and I discussing the periodisation of the medieval millennium in the Gone Medieval back catalogue if you'd like more content like this. And you can subscribe to The Ancients wherever you get your podcasts too.

• 50:20Matt Lewis?

  There are new instalments of Gone Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please come back to join Eleanor and I for more from the greatest millennium in human history. Don't forget to also subscribe or follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all of your friends and family that you've gone medieval. You can sign up to History Hit to access hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free. Head to historyhit.com/subscribe right now. Anyway, I'd better let you go. I've been Matt Lewis and we've just gone medieval with History Hit.