Rise of The Plantagenets

What happened when Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II joined forces, and why did it set medieval Europe on fire? Dr. Eleanor Janega and Matt Lewis break out of the Gone Medieval dungeon to explore the dramatic rise of the Plantagenets, from a demonic family legend in Anjou to the dazzling court of Poitiers and the whirlwind marriage that united vast French lands. Expect romance, rivalry, and a dynasty built on ambition, power, and scandal. MORE Joanna: Eleanor of Aquitaine's Fierce Daughter Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/joanna-eleanor-of-aquitaines-fierce-daughter/id1564113746?i=1000700287646 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/6PuzZYg1UhQEaCQeotfwNs Edward II: King of Incompetence Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/edward-ii-king-of-incompetence/id1564113746?i=1000697886030 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/1ku4dTpSYsOs7Kl3C3V2xN Gone Medieval is presented by Dr. Eleanor Janega and Matt Lewis. Audio editor is Amy Haddow. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds. Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast. WATCH Matt and Eleanor's new documentary The ascent to power: Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II NOW only on History Hit: https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week PLUS early access, ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Matt Lewis?

  From long-lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places, to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr Eleanor Janiger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life, only on History Hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand-new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:42Eleanor Janega?

  Hello, I'm Dr Eleanor Janiger, and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gob-smacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research, from the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes, to the Crusades. We delve into the rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were, and how we got here.

• 1:19Eleanor Janega?

  The Count of Anjou felt blessed. He had a beautiful wife and four healthy children. He had only one cause for concern. But it gnawed at him, until it grew from a curiosity into a concern, and then, a fear. Every Sunday when they sat in church, his apparently devoted countess would leave just before the elevation of the host. People gossiped about it, and the count became increasingly concerned.

• 1:55Matt Lewis?

  Well, one Sunday, the Countess moved to leave, as always, but found her way blocked by four soldiers. She ordered them to move, but they refused. As the priests prepared the holiest part of the service, the Countess threw off her gown, spread thick leathery wings, grabbed her two youngest sons, and flew up into the air. The astonished and terrified congregation watched as this demonic form flew out of a high window. The Countess of Anjou and her two youngest sons were never seen again.

• 2:27Eleanor Janega?

  King Richard I of England, remembered as the Lionheart, was the second ruler of the new Plantagenet dynasty, and the vast array of lands his parents had gathered. He was fond of telling this story about the origins of their family, and why they were both so fierce and so cursed. The chronicler Gerald of Wales wrote:

• 2:50Matt Lewis?

  Moreover, King Richard was often accustomed to refer to this event, saying that it was no matter of wonder if coming from such a race, sons should not cease to harass their parents and brothers to quarrel amongst each other, for he knew that they had all come from the devil, and to the devil they would go. When, therefore, the root was in every way so corrupt, how was it possible that the branches from such a stock could be prosperous or virtuous?

• 3:20Eleanor Janega?

  Matt and I have a shiny, brand-new documentary on history hit about Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II, out now. So, once you've listened to this, please go watch it and tell everyone how good it is. Because I'm always looking for an excuse to talk to Matt and drag him out of his dungeon, I thought we could kick back and have a nice little chat about the film that we made in the south of France. Matt, welcome up from the dungeon. Thanks for coming in here.

• 3:49Matt Lewis?

  Hello. It's always a pleasure to be allowed out, even for the briefest of times. This was such a great fun film to make as well, wasn't it? I mean, I'm gonna sound like a bit of a whinger here about something that I shouldn't whinge about, but we also did go to the south of France at the hottest point probably in history, it felt like.

• 4:06Eleanor Janega?

  It was literally 8 billion degrees, literally, which was a real test for me, not a hot weather person. But, you know, does that help us get in touch with the heart and soul of Eleanor Vauquertaine? Possibly, possibly. Was she a hot weather girly? We have to assume so, right?

• 4:27Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, I mean, Poitiers was just such a stunning place, wasn't it? We went to the Palace of the Dukes of Poitiers. But I think if you could draw, I can't draw to save my life, but I think if you could draw like your picture-perfect idea of a medieval French town, that's Poitiers, isn't it?

• 4:43Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, absolutely. I mean, it is absolutely stunning. Just down to things like the incredible cathedral, which has beautiful statues of the apocalypse up front, which of course I freaked out over. So great. The Dougal Palace, incredible. They have churches that have this beautiful old Romanesque architecture, which would have been really legible to Eleanor at the time. And it does really make you feel in touch with the people that you are working on.

• 5:12Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And I think if anyone wants to see approximately 45-minute documentary of Eleanor staring at apocalypse statues outside Poitiers Cathedral, we've got that.

• 5:20Eleanor Janega?

  We've got it. It's it.

• 5:23Eleanor Janega?

  But I guess, speaking of Eleanor, going to Poitiers was so important because this is where she was born, right? And that we know, but I suppose what we don't really know is when she was born. You know, we've got no idea what her birthday was. I can't do an astrology girly on her. We don't even know the year of her birth, right?

• 5:44Matt Lewis?

  No, I mean, it's so weird, isn't it? Because it's quite often given as 11/24, but that doesn't seem to be based on anything in particular. We get a family kind of genealogy that's produced in 1137 that says she's 15 then, which would put her birth in 1122. But we still can't be certain, you know, exactly when her birthday is might affect the age that she was. So it could be a year either side of even that. And the genealogy might have been incorrect. Who knows? So we're slightly guessing even what year she's born in, let alone what date she's born.

• 6:20Eleanor Janega?

  To be fair, this isn't that weird for the time. People were a lot more loosey goosey about the concept of birthdays and birth years. She is not the only ruler that we don't have a really great handle on, or, you know, indeed, great thinker. The Middle Ages is full of people, you know, whenever I'm writing about them and I'm going and looking up birthdays, you kind of have to put circa at the beginning of their name because we don't really know, you know, it's just not something that medieval people put very much of a privilege on, you know, to them that exactly when someone is born is not important. And that seems weird to us now. And indeed, it frustrates me.

• 7:03Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 7:04Eleanor Janega?

  I will say that, but it's not odd.

• 7:06Matt Lewis?

  And also, we'll get to it in a second, but she's, I mean, she's a woman and she was never meant to be the Duchess of Aquitaine. She was never meant to rule Aquitaine. So kind of once the first boy is born, everyone's like, we don't need dates of birth for the rest of them, do we? Because.

• 7:22Eleanor Janega?

  It's like, who cares? We got what we came for. It's fine. You're just going to marry her off anyway. She's going to go somewhere else, be a part of someone else's family. You don't need to worry about it.

• 7:30Matt Lewis?

  Someone else has got to remember a birthday then. One of the other fun things about Eleanor, I mean, you're named after Eleanor of Aquitaine, aren't you?

• 7:36Eleanor Janega?

  Mm hmm. I am.

• 7:38Matt Lewis?

  One of the other interesting things about Eleanor is kind of trying to work out where that name comes from, because it's slightly unusual at the time. But there's some theories about where she gets her name from, aren't there?

• 7:50Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, because I personally choose to subscribe to this because I think it's great. Her mother's name was Anor.

• 7:58Eleanor Janega?

  And the theory goes that her name is kind of a play on that. And it's actually from Alia Enoch, which means another Enoch, like her mother. And I really like this because in which case that means, yeah, okay, I am, I'm named after Eleanor Vautier, but so is literally every other Eleanor on the planet. Right. Because she is, she is the progenitor of this name. And so kind of we're like Alia Eleanors then in that case, which is quite fun.

• 8:30Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, all of you. Not another one, as someone in Bristol would have said about general elections recently. And, and you know, we mentioned that she's not the oldest member of the family. She's not the male. She's not going to inherit, or she was never meant to inherit. So we ought to paint a picture of her family, you know, what kind of family situation is she born into?

• 8:51Eleanor Janega?

  A pretty good one is the answer. I mean, the fact that she even ended up as the Duchess of Vautier is absolutely bonkers because this was a pretty settled, wealthy family, you know? So here we are. Imagine yourself at the court in Poitiers. You, you won't have to if you, if you watch our show because we'll show it to you, baby. But this is one of the richest ducal courts in Europe at the time. It is well known as a hotbed for music. It is vastly, vastly wealthy. It's got some of the best wine anywhere in Europe.

• 9:31Eleanor Janega?

  And this is a very well settled house that has several, many children. So as you say, you know, Eleanor has an older brother even, you know? You know, she's got, she's got siblings. She's got siblings. She's not supposed to be anywhere near the throne. She's just going to be. Quite a good bargaining chip in terms of marriages. And because she's from this particular court culture, she's receiving an incredibly fine education and being brought up to be that very powerful woman, a good co-ruler,

• 10:10Eleanor Janega?

  and someone that can give her family rather a lot of cachet on a European stage.

• 10:17Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah. And before we get to the rest of the family, you mentioned two things there that were important in Aquitaine: music and wine, which reminds me of a little bit of time spent in a vineyard at the Chateau de Virel. Because when we were organising filming this, Eleanor's rider, Eleanor's rider for agreeing to do the documentary at all was to be able to go to a vineyard. So we got to spend a lovely, lovely, very hot afternoon there. I tried to embarrass myself playing a recorder, and then we drank some wine.

• 10:44Eleanor Janega?

  I don't know. You know what, Matt? I think you succeeded.

• 10:48Matt Lewis?

  I was gonna say, I should have said tried, should I? There was no try about it. I utterly embarrassed myself with the recorder.

• 10:53Eleanor Janega?

  That's right, Matt. I believe in you. Come on. We had a really, really wonderful time. And also, in my defence, I do think it was kind of necessary to getting to the heart of what really makes this region important, right? This is the wine that is transported all over Europe, and that brings in a fair amount of coin at the time, right? So what we are looking at, though, in terms of the dynasty that is taking advantage of this is, as we already noted, we've got Eleanor's mother, Enoch de Chateaurier, and she is, interestingly, she's kind of like from a little bit more far north. Like, she's kind

• 11:35Eleanor Janega?

  of, that family is kind of the southern part of northern France, if that makes sense, right? So marrying into it from the perspective of the Dukes of Poitiers is a good idea because it kind of gets you some, I guess, protections on your northern borders and some friendly faces when you have to show up to, you know, kneel before the King of France in northern France, right?

• 12:03Matt Lewis?

  There's also a bit of family scandal behind that, isn't there? Because I know, you know, you're gonna have to be careful how I phrase all of this so it doesn't sound too incestuous, but...

• 12:12Matt Lewis?

  So Eleanor's father is Duke William the 10th, because all the dukes of Aquitaine are called William, just to be annoying and confusing. So her grandad, Duke William the 9th, is this kind of famous first troubadour, but such a colourful character with such a dodgy sex life. So he has an affair with a woman who has the fabulous name dangereuse de Lille Bouchard.

• 12:36Eleanor Janega?

  Bring it back. If anyone is having a girl child, I am begging you to name her dangereuse, okay? Please.

• 12:44Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, perfect. And Eynor, who marries Duke William the 10th, is the daughter of dangereuse by her husband. So she's not related to Duke William the 10th, but she's his dad's mistress's daughter, and he marries them off, I don't know, so he can see his mistress at family parties?

• 13:05Eleanor Janega?

  Listen, the mind of others is often unknowable. We can say that, but I guess in southern France, this counts as some kind of, you know, closer family ties. And you know what? We celebrate it. We celebrate it. Who doesn't want dangereuse at Christmas, right?

• 13:26Matt Lewis?

  And we should also add that Eleanor has a sister as well.

• 13:29Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, that's Alex. Yeah, which is a great, Alex with an I, quite chic. But she's also known as Petronilla. And she, of course, also has a brother named, no points for guessing, William.

• 13:42Matt Lewis?

  What could it be? The future Duke of Aquitaine? We'll call him...

• 13:48Eleanor Janega?

  And they are all being raised in the Palace of Poitiers, which we visited in, oh my God, it's lush. I mean, it's got these really incredible 14th century sculptures in the throne room now, which are just to die for. But the bones of what would have been Eleanor's father's court are certainly still there. And it is just an absolutely stunning, stunning building. I was so happy to be able to go. And, you know, what a great excuse. I was like, "Yeah, you gotta let me into this throne room."

• 14:24Matt Lewis?

  And it's when they're like, do you want to come a bit off the touristy trail? You know, we'll have to go through a bit of a building site where we're doing some renovations, but then you can get to a room that nobody else is allowed into. Would you like to do that?

• 14:34Eleanor Janega?

  I mean, yeah.

• 14:35Matt Lewis?

  They didn't have to ask us twice, did they? Let's remind us to put the hard hats on.

• 14:39Eleanor Janega?

  We were just on those hard hats. We were down the corridor. It was, I mean, that, that, it was actually my favorite, my favorite part because you had all these really gorgeous Gothic arches, really, really lovely stained glass and interesting little capital bosses too. You know, I'm, I'm always happy when there's like a little guy in the architecture. That's, that's the thing that I want to see, you know?

• 15:00Matt Lewis?

  Mate, it's your current Instagram profile picture is, is you in that room, isn't it?

• 15:04Eleanor Janega?

  It is, it is.

• 15:05Matt Lewis?

  That's how much you liked it.

• 15:06Eleanor Janega?

  The way I am using that particular picture for everything now. And I'm like, oh, this? That was just taken off the beaten track in the Palace of Frottier. Oh no, I'm afraid you can't go there. The staff will have to take you in. So, yeah, I'm, I am being.

• 15:23Matt Lewis?

  You can go there if you watch our documentary though.

• 15:25Eleanor Janega?

  Yes, you can. You can come with us. You can come with us. I'll get you in. Don't worry, don't worry. Right?

• 15:29Matt Lewis?

  You can hold our hands. And I guess, you know, moving Eleanor's story a bit further forward. So one of the things that people might know about Eleanor is that she's the only woman in history to have been the queen of both France and England. So I guess we ought to work on how does she become the queen of France? You know, why, why is she a good match for the, the heir to the French throne?

• 15:51Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, I mean, by this point in time, she has become the Duchess of Aquitaine. You know, very unfortunately for her, her brother dies, her mother dies. And so she becomes the heir to the throne. And when her father dies, she becomes the Duchess of Aquitaine. Not that weird in Aquitaine. You know, this is something that is fairly common, especially in, in Southern France. But she had been entrusted to the care of the French king.

• 16:21Eleanor Janega?

  And lo and behold, surprise, surprise. He's like, wow. Now that I am in charge of your life, you're going to marry my son. And this is not a huge surprise because Aquitaine is probably the largest of any of the duchies in France at the time. Eleanor is the most wealthy of any of the dukes or duchesses at the time. And so marrying her in to the French crown means theoretically the crown can get their hands on those lands. And it's kind of a no brainer if you are the king of France.

• 16:57Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. I mean, she doesn't end up being married to the heir to the French throne for very long because very quickly Louis's dad dies and kind of she arrives in Paris as queen, doesn't she?

• 17:07Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, exactly. And so now we've got yet another Louis. They're all named Louis. Babe, look, it's all Williams. It's all Louis. I'm so sorry. There were only three names to go around at the time. So they are suddenly the king and queen of France and they're quite young. You know, this is like, hey, let's have these teenagers rule one of the most powerful states in Europe. I'm sure it will be fine.

• 17:31Matt Lewis?

  And Paris, I mean, Paris must have been such a gear shift for Eleanor, such a different place from Aquitaine, isn't it?

• 17:37Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, God, absolutely. You know, everything is much more serious there. The weather is, I would say, much less bright. We can certainly say that. And there's also just a kind of a bit of a problem in terms of the match between Eleanor and Louis. Because here's Eleanor, and by all accounts, every single thing you ever read about her, even when people are trying to be haters. They're like, she's a really good time, right? She's kind of sparkling. She's witty. She's used to this court culture that revolves around live music and artistry. And Louis.

• 18:12Eleanor Janega?

  Well, Louis wasn't supposed to be the King of France either, right? Like, he was supposed to be, you know, a spare. And so he was being raised to be in the church. And when his brother died and he did become the heir, suddenly you've got this real church-fried guy who is going to be the King of France. And he is, by all accounts, just a real downer, just an absolute fun sponge of a guy. And this is a real challenge for Eleanor.

• 18:40Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And I mean, we don't see one of those situations in which opposites attract, do we? I mean, they, and it's weird how early the chroniclers start talking about this idea that Louis is so obsessed and besotted with Eleanor that she's kind of controlling him. So even this early in her, her first relationship to Louis, we're seeing her being painted as a very specific type of woman.

• 19:04Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, absolutely. You know, she does appear to most people as a threat because she is, by all accounts, incredibly attractive. Weirdly, we don't know what she actually looks like. We only know that she is very hot. She is very charming. She's very erudite, you know, a speaker of several languages, avid and voracious reader, and someone who was raised to rule. And so that's what she gets involved with almost right away. And, and almost right away, she ends up having to be very involved in politics because Louis is not very good at the political side of things. I think that that's a fair thing to say, wouldn't you?

• 19:47Matt Lewis?

  I think so. I don't think he's interested, really, is he? Not very good at balancing all of those things. He gets his dad's old advisor, Abbott, Suker, kind of out of retirement because he's so desperate for someone to help him rule. But people seem to see Eleanor behind pretty much everything that goes wrong for Louis because Louis is rubbish, but you can't say the king's rubbish. It's easier to say his wife's not very good.

• 20:08Eleanor Janega?

  And I mean, he's being rubbish almost immediately. You know, in 1141, he's got this, this war to lose. And basically, there was no real reason for this to have had to break out in the first place, you know?

• 20:23Eleanor Janega?

  You as the King of France, why are you as the King of France, like actually going to war with your subjects? That means that there's been some failed diplomacy somewhere along the way. And it just doesn't look great, does it? And fundamentally, they are having a difficult time drumming up much popular support for it either because it all seems so unnecessary. So almost immediately Eleanor is kind of having to come in and kind of negotiate with varying partners.

• 20:53Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, all of that goes wrong. Louis isn't getting a good reputation. I mean, he, there's a, I think there's a church during that campaign, there's a church that gets burned full of innocent people and it's, the chronicles start to come out. You know, Louis is so emotionally affected by this that he leaves the campaign and kind of is probably the, the driver for his desire to go off to the Holy Land on crusade, which he and Eleanor do in 1147. And I guess one of the questions people might have is, is how common is it for a queen like Eleanor to be going on crusade at this point?

• 21:26Eleanor Janega?

  For a queen to be going is exceptionally odd. And part of the reason why one wouldn't do that is usually you leave the queen home because she's going to be doing rather a lot of ruling while you're away. But Eleanor is going, partially because she is just being an absolute legend and she is at the head of her own contingent, coming from Aquitaine. But also because of the whole war with Toulouse thing, Louis had got himself in some trouble with the church. And the church had taken an incredibly dim view of these particular seizures because

• 22:08Eleanor Janega?

  let's be so for real, they were as a result of the fact that Louis also wanted to pick who would be a bishop and the church was always saying, no, you don't get to do that. So to get out of this mess, in order to avoid Louis getting excommunicated and France being put under interdict, Eleanor meets with enemy of the podcast.

• 22:29Eleanor Janega?

  Future Saint Bernard of Clairvaux.

• 22:31Matt Lewis?

  He's got his nose in everything at this time, hasn't he?

• 22:33Eleanor Janega?

  Ah, he's just the worst. And he basically negotiates with Eleanor, and Eleanor plays an absolute blinder here. She, like, pretty cries. And it's like, oh, Bernard, I just, mm, I think that maybe the real problem is we're having a hard time conceiving children. And oh, maybe if I was a better wife, he wouldn't have attacked Toulouse, question mark, you know? And Saint Bernard is completely flustered by this. And it's like, ah, yeah, ooh, ten Hail Marys, I guess. And go on, go on crusade, go on crusade. And Eleanor's like, yeah, okay. So she goes back and she's like, look, you're not, you're not excommunicated, but we're gonna have to go on crusade. Right? So she's already inserted herself at this level. And that sort of means she kind of has to go along.

• 23:18Matt Lewis?

  I think there's also an element of the French polity by this point, maybe viewing Eleanor in such a way that they don't want her left behind as regent, that they prefer Abbots who care to be regent. So the only way you, you get around a queen being regent is to shuffle her off on crusade with the king.

• 23:35Eleanor Janega?

  And I think that you're probably bang on here. And I find it so funny, because all of our records again indicate, though, that maybe the French didn't love whatever was going on with Eleanor. But I'll tell you who did, were the Byzantines. She shows up in Constantinople, and it's like a riot. Everyone is like, we love this woman. She is incredible. She's so funny. She's so pretty. She's so clever. Wow. And she's here to save the day. And they're like, oh, and also Louis.

• 24:03Matt Lewis?

  She bought her husband with her.

• 24:04Eleanor Janega?

  It's one of these things.

• 24:05Matt Lewis?

  But going to Byzantine, getting into Constantinople, must have felt much more like going home to Eleanor than Paris had. It must have been so much more of a colorful, kind of relaxed environment where she was able to enjoy some of the stuff that she might have been missing since she'd had to leave Aquitaine.

• 24:24Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, absolutely. And so, you know, here she is really mixing it up with the highest and most, you know, really worldly people. Constantinople really being the biggest city in Europe at the time, and just this absolute glittering jewel in the crown of Christendom. And I think for her, it was just really nice to sort of be somewhere where she could mix with a group of people who appreciated an erudite woman.

• 24:56Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah. But that might have been the last time she enjoyed anything on the crusade, I'd imagine.

• 25:01Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, absolutely. Spoiler. But, you know, the crusade, we get into this rather a lot in this show, but the crusade goes badly. I mean, as do all crusades other than the first, right? Crusade goes incredibly badly. Eleanor sees herself as being there to support her uncle Raymond, and he is not particularly enthused about Louis. Louis is very impetuous, is constantly striking out on his own, wants to expand the crusade to mean getting to Jerusalem when that had not been the idea in the first instance. The

• 25:42Eleanor Janega?

  entire thing ends up in a total mess, which also means that there is a total breakdown in Eleanor and Louis's relationship.

• 25:50Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And it often strikes me that Louis, I don't know if Louis ever really wanted to go on a military crusade, or did he just want to go on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem? Because he's so obsessed with getting there, he's ignoring, you know, Raymond of Poitiers saying, well, here's a really good battle plan for how we take back the Holy Land. We attack here, here, you know, weaken the supply lines around here. And Louis is like, no, we go straight to Jerusalem. That's what we do. And it feels like he just, you know, he just wanted to go on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, and he kind of wrapped it up as a crusade.

• 26:18Eleanor Janega?

  I think this is a really great way of looking at it. You know, he doesn't seem to be at all interested in any of the battling. That is supposed to be happening. It's just this idea that if we make this mad rush to Jerusalem, everything will be okay. And you know, whether or not he had any exit plan or thought anything could actually change is another question. And you know, the relationship for Eleanor becomes increasingly untenable because whatever else you might want to say about her, she's a, she's a real planner, you know? She's a deeply sensible individual who is used to taking advice from people around her and you've just embarrassed her in front of her uncle, you know? She's come all the way over to the Holy Land.

• 27:03Eleanor Janega?

  Now everything is just completely out the window and you're acting a fool, right? So what ends up happening when they head back? I mean, first of all, they, they're not even like getting ships together. Eleanor is then lost at sea for a month? Question mark. Everyone thinks she might be dead and she shows back up and she's like, A, I'm not dead and B, I am divorcing this man. This is not my husband.

• 27:28Matt Lewis?

  And C, I just had a very nice holiday in Cyprus. Thank you very much.

• 27:31Eleanor Janega?

  Thank you very much. She writes to the papacy and she says, I think I need a divorce from this guy due to consanguinity, which is sort of the only reason you can usually get a divorce other than erectile dysfunction. If you're a woman, the only thing you can say is, oh, it turns out I'm too closely related to this guy. And at this point in time, the Pope is like, you know what? Fine. I'm sick of you two. You are a huge pain in the neck and I would love it if you would get divorced. So there you go. The terrible holiday that ruined a marriage.

• 28:08Matt Lewis?

  And I guess at this point, you know, part, part of the thing with this documentary, one of the things about Eleanor is she lives this, this entire spectacular medieval life of being Queen of France and going off on crusade and, and all of those things before she even meets Henry. But at some point, we've got to bring Henry into this story too, because he's the other half of this deal.

• 28:26Eleanor Janega?

  Absolutely. And you know, Henry is similarly interestingly scrappy.

• 28:32Eleanor Janega?

  Upbringing, I suppose, right? Can we say that? Yeah, I think he's coming out of the turmoil of the anarchy because his mother, of course, was your friend and mine, friend of the podcast, the Empress Matilda. We love her. Legend. We love her, right?

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  Are you looking for the perfect podcasts to hunker down with during the longer, colder, darker nights?

• 29:39Speaker 04

  Well, look no further than the award winning After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds, and the Paranormal with me, Maddie Pelling.

• 29:46Speaker 03

  And me, Anthony Delaney. We are historians and love all things gloomy and macabre.

• 29:51Speaker 04

  From Tudor executioners and ancient Egyptian death rituals to witch trials and folklore, feel transported back in time on After Dark. Out every Monday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 30:03Speaker 03

  And guess what? We're also now on YouTube. After Dark, a podcast from History Hit.

• 30:24Speaker 03

  So his mom, Matilda, has been kind of fighting to keep.

• 30:29Matt Lewis?

  Their claim to the throne alive against Stephen, you know, the, we could get into the whole anarchy, fascinating stuff. But by the time Henry is getting a little bit older, his mom is sort of, after 1141, after the Battle of Lincoln captures King Stephen, then he has to be released. And I think this drives home for her that she's never going to make herself queen. But what she does do is, is think, well, I can keep this claim alive for my son, for Henry, who, you know, is named after his grandfather, Henry I. And so by the time he's getting of an age to get himself involved, she's taking a little bit of a backseat. He's spent some time in England already. So he comes over, he's born 1133, comes over in 1142, spends some time at Bristol with his uncle, Robert of Gloucester, where he kind of continues his education with some of the, the most enlightened minds

• 31:14Matt Lewis?

  in Britain at the time. And he also, you know, we know he's getting an incredibly good education back on the continent when he returns there as well. William of Consh, he's one of his tutors, you know, he's a really famous academic. And, and later in Henry's life, people will talk about the fact that he reads books voraciously, that he can speak every language in Europe, basically, at least enough to, to understand and speak to, to ambassadors. And, and I don't think you can do the things that Henry manages to do when he's king without being a pretty clever guy. So it's clear he's getting an education befitting someone who is, is going to rule one day.

• 31:51Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I think that these are things that are all going to set him in a very good stead, firstly, for ruling England, but also ruling a huge landmass that does encompass lots of different languages, does have a lot of different cultures. So he's really brought up to be able to understand that the world contains very many things which you might need to know about. And he does end up, you know, pressing this point, pressing the point of his fitness for succession, right? So, you know, he's, he starts trying to invade England when he's 14, like, come on, kid, I love it. Like, gives it the old

• 32:33Eleanor Janega?

  college try in 1147, you know, which is just a wonderful thing to see where you're like, yeah, just go it out there. I hope he has fun.

• 32:42Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, it's one of my favourite stories about Henry because he's 14 years old. He gets together a bunch of his mates, knights, but his mates, and they head over to England. And you get the chroniclers at the time writing that, you know, this was the thunderstroke that shook England. Henry has arrived with a huge army and he's got barrels full of treasure to bribe everybody. And we are about to enter the biggest phase of war this nation has ever known and everybody's terrified. And then it turns out it's Henry and half of us are mates and they've got no cash. And it doesn't go very well at all.

• 33:15Eleanor Janega?

  It's just a bunch of boys going, wait, wait.

• 33:19Matt Lewis?

  Lads holiday to the south of England. And they end up, you know, he ends up, it goes really badly. He tries to lay siege to some castles. It doesn't work out for him. And then he's stuck at 14 with this situation where he goes to his mom, who's still in England at this point, and says, can you pay my knights for me? Because I promised that they'd get paid kind of out of all of our glittering successes, of which we have had none. And his mom says, well, no, you know, you made your bed, you lie in it.

• 33:45Eleanor Janega?

  That's good parenting.

• 33:46Matt Lewis?

  If you've used your pocket money for something else, yeah, get on the naughty step. So he goes, he then goes to his rich uncle, Robert of Gloucester, who, you know, he spent time with before. And Robert is, you know, a chivalric figure, also incredibly rich. And he says, Uncle Robert, will you pay my knights so that, you know, I can go home with my honour intact? And Uncle Robert's a bit like, what did your mum say? What did mum say? And Robert refuses to pay it too. And so he, Henry finds himself forced to go and see the man whose kingdom he's invaded, Stephen, he like rucks up at Stephen's house and says, Stee, will you just pay these knights so that we can all go home, please? I mean, the cojones on this kid at 14. I've just invaded your kingdom, but can you just pay us off to go now?

• 34:29Eleanor Janega?

  Uncle Stephen.

• 34:32Matt Lewis?

  And the bizarre thing is that Stephen agrees to do it. Stephen pays him off so he can go home. And this is one of those things, getting on my Stephen soapbox a little bit. It's one of those things that Stephen gets blamed for, you know, it was ridiculous that he paid these men off. But I think it serves two ends. It gets them out of his kingdom. You know, it gives him a little victory over Henry. But I think it also, if you look at what happens a little bit later, when the anarchy is coming to a close, I think this is a moment that creates this kind of, almost like a connection, a well of sympathy between Stephen and Henry. Because Henry never goes for the jugular with Stephen. And I can't help wondering whether this goes back to at 14. He's actually the only one who helped me out. He's the only reason that I left England with my honour intact and my men paid.

• 35:16Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, absolutely. And I think also, to Stephen's credit, one of the things that it does is it shows that he's not rattled. Right? Like, he can say, yeah, I'm not bothered if a 14-year-old shows up and attempts to attack me because it's preposterous. Obviously, I'm the king of England. There you go. You lads, go on home. You've had your fun. Sort of thing. So I think that you're right.

• 35:37Matt Lewis?

  That was cute. Have some.

• 35:38Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, right. Like, he plays a blinder there. You know, show everyone that you're not bothered by it.

• 35:42Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And then, I mean, he waits, he waits three years till he's 17, which, you know, that's a great age to invade countries, isn't it? 17. He's a man now. And he gets these series of setbacks. He's planning to invade England from 1150. We get, we see in the documentary, we went and saw Nicholas Vincent at the British Library, who got some horoscopes that Stephen had cast around 1150, when Stephen is kind of dabbling in this new science of horoscopes that's just moving out of the east with, with connections with the Crusades. And he's kind of saying, you know, if I get all of the barons to swear allegiance to my son Eustace, will it work? And interestingly, you get this guy casting the horoscope going, well, the signs all say that if you involve someone who casts horoscopes,

• 36:25Matt Lewis?

  then it'll work. So it's a little, little bit of job creation going on there.

• 36:29Eleanor Janega?

  Wow, we could have learnt so much from the past, you know. What can I say?

• 36:32Matt Lewis?

  So what's the, yeah, it's only going to work if you get me involved and keep me on the payroll. And then he's, you know, he's having horoscopes cast, asking whether a certain person is going to invade the kingdom in that year. And the guy casting the horoscopes is going, no. I mean, it's a 50 50 question, isn't it? And to be fair, that was probably cast in 1151. And he doesn't invade in 1151 because as he's got his fleet ready to go, his dad, Geoffrey, the Count of Anjou dies. So at kind of 18, he's now Count of Anjou. And he's actually beginning to get into all these titles. He's already Duke of Normandy. His dad conquers Normandy and just gives it to him. Now he's Count of Anjou and, you know, head of the family as well.

• 37:12Matt Lewis?

  His little brothers are, particularly Geoffrey, is endlessly causing him problems, kicking off, rebelling, thinking he's entitled to more than he's got his hands on. And then in 1152, you know, he's ready to invade England again. And all of a sudden he gets the letter from this newly divorced lady down in the south. It's like, do you fancy coming to marry me? And I think it's interesting that it's Eleanor who approaches Henry, isn't it?

• 37:37Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, I think that this is something where, again, my girl, she's untouchable. The best to ever do it, right? Because she is in this terrible position after she divorces Louis. Because now she is, once again, the most wealthy possible marriage prospect in Europe. And as she's trying to get back to her lands from the whole, you know, holiday in Cyprus debacle, she faces two attempted kidnappings on the part of varying would be suitors, you know, how romantic, right? And, you know, she doesn't want the come down of being a Duchess again.

• 38:20Eleanor Janega?

  You know, once you've become a queen, you don't want to have to get knocked back down a couple of ranks. And also, you know, I think she kind of wants to annoy her ex a little bit. And who amongst us, you know, could say that that isn't delicious? So, you know, she approaches the young Henry because in theory, he might be coming into some lands soon. He's certainly coming into a lot of French lands at the very least. And this would be annoying to Louis in the first place because that is going to unite these two houses. And they are going to have more French land than he does. Which is very funny. And then, you know, if and when Henry becomes king of England,

• 39:01Eleanor Janega?

  she will be queen of England. So she's the one who's like, hey, you want to get married? And she also knows this is going to work because she's met Henry before and Henry's eyes were popping out of his head with hearts. He was hitting himself on the head with a mallet and his tongue was on the floor. And so she's like, I think I can win this one, right? So, you know, it's the equivalent of getting like a letter from a pop star saying, oh, hey, do you want to get married, 17 year old boy? And Henry is like, yes, yes, I do. Thank you very much.

• 39:37Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, I always imagine him, you know, he's preparing for this big invasion. He's got all his soldiers there and he gets this letter. And I always imagine him in another cartoon character version with his feet like he can't run on the floor fast enough. His feet don't keep up with him. He's desperately just trying to run down to the south. Because I think Eleanor must have been also, this is probably a fairly calculated decision on Eleanor's part because we, we know Louis did his best to try and keep Aquitaine on behalf of their daughters and Eleanor managed to retain control of Aquitaine. But she knows, I think, once she gets back there, there's those two abduction attempts, one, the second one of which is by Henry's younger brother.

• 40:16Eleanor Janega?

  Nice.

• 40:17Matt Lewis?

  But she knows that she's going to have trouble. She needs someone at her side. Well, she's probably going to have to get married because if people are trying to abduct her, how long can she avoid that? It might be better if she gets to choose who it is. But she also needs someone who can be an effective rival to Louis, someone who can protect her and her lands against Louis. And if you cast around Europe at this point, who is the obvious answer? It's this 17 year old kid who is on the up, he's Duke of Aquitaine, he's Count of Avonjou, he's about to invade England to try and make himself king there. Everything is going his way. And like you say, he's someone who can really rattle Louis.

• 40:55Eleanor Janega?

  And, you know, listen, we know he's not afraid to start a battle. So you know, that's a good thing. This is someone that you want in your corner, right? And to be fair, he takes this up. It is a great, it's a great marriage proposal from his standpoint. You know, obviously you get to marry a bona fide hottie, but also there's a ton of lands in it for you. And this is all an incredibly wealthy parcel of land that should you need money to go, say invade England, you can always draw from the coffers of Poitiers. So he doodly shows up in Poitiers and on the 18th of May 1152, the two of them get married at Poitiers Cathedral. Oh, can you imagine?

• 41:38Eleanor Janega?

  It's so beautiful. Really, a real stunner of a cathedral, in my opinion.

• 41:44Matt Lewis?

  I mean, it's a gorgeous building, isn't it? There was that one chapel on the side that had all the paintings on the ceilings that they've only fairly recently uncovered that Henry and Eleanor might have looked at, you know, when they were there getting married. But I mean, stunning building.

• 41:58Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, it's just really gorgeous. I've mentioned it already. I'm going to mention again, the statuary on the outside of it. They've got a really incredible apocalypse scene with everyone getting up out of their graves, a nice little hell mouth. Matt took some very funny pictures of me just obsessing over it as well. You know, it's like, at any time, we were not filming, I was drilling.

• 42:20Matt Lewis?

  Also, Matt very much enjoyed standing next to you and asking you what it all meant. And having an expert on that kind of thing, standing next to me, explaining it all to me, was absolutely fantastic.

• 42:28Eleanor Janega?

  And I mean, also, just the streets around the cathedral are so beautiful down there. You know, everything is kind of made out of the same lovely kind of Poitiers limestone. You can really see the medieval layout of the city. And I think that it goes a long way to helping you sort of imagine what life must have been like for them. And you know, the lovely procession back from the cathedral to the Dougal Palace afterwards, it must have been an incredible thing, especially for the young Henry, who was so hyped that he is just married this incredible babe, you know?

• 43:06Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, and you can't help wondering, you know, they get married in May, you can't help wondering if it was as hot as it was when we were there as well, because one of my favourite moments was getting an iced coffee after we'd been filming.

• 43:15Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think I also made everyone get Monaco's one night, which is kind of French shandy. It's lager, soda water and grenadine. Try it. You'll like it. You'll like it. I'm just saying.

• 43:29Matt Lewis?

  Do try it. It was very, very good. It was not just one night that we had those.

• 43:32Eleanor Janega?

  It was very good.

• 43:34Matt Lewis?

  It was more than one night.

• 43:35Eleanor Janega?

  No, indeed.

• 43:38Matt Lewis?

  And we've mentioned a little bit about, you know, we don't know too much about what Eleanor looks like, but there is this sense that she's this incredibly attractive, intelligent woman. And I guess the one counter to that that we do get in the documentary was when I went to see Nicholas Vincent at the British Library. He'd recently been doing some work on a source, and this is a source that is incredibly negative, hostile to Henry and Eleanor. So we take it with a pinch of salt, absolutely. But this seems to be poking a lot of fun at Henry and essentially saying that later on in their relationship, so after they've been married for a while, Henry is having to take aphrodisiacs in order to be able to sleep with Eleanor. So, you know, it's trying to obviously disparage Eleanor

• 44:21Matt Lewis?

  in particular, I guess, but poke a little bit of fun at Henry's sexual prowess a little bit later in his life as well. So, you know, we're stuck with this sense that we don't know what Eleanor looked like. We have all of these notions, particularly when she's younger, of her being incredibly attractive and people wanting to be around her and having that kind of magnetic personality. And then we get this random source that says, oh yeah, but Henry needed a bit of help to sleep with her.

• 45:04Matt Lewis?

  Are you looking for the perfect podcasts to hunker down with during the longer, colder, darker nights?

• 45:10Speaker 04

  Well, look no further than the award-winning After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal With me, Maddie Pelling.

• 45:17Matt Lewis?

  And me, Anthony Delaney. We are historians and love all things gloomy and macabre.

• 45:22Speaker 04

  From Tudor executioners and ancient Egyptian death rituals to witch trials and folklore. Feel transported back in time on After Dark. Out every Monday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 45:34Matt Lewis?

  And guess what? We're also now on YouTube. After Dark, a podcast from History Hit.

• 45:56Eleanor Janega?

  Well, you know, for me, I find this all quite interesting because to an extent, you know, in the Middle Ages, there's this beauty ideal for women. And there's one, right? And it is kind of created around in the 12th century. And then it holds after that. And the ideal woman has blonde hair, grey eyes, white skin, you know? And this is what you're supposed to look like. And so oftentimes, we do find that if people don't live up to that ideal, we just don't hear anything at all. Which to me indicates, like, I would guess, if I had to guess, I would say that Eleanor maybe has brown hair and brown eyes. Because since that doesn't match the ideal, you just don't say it. Right?

• 46:38Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 46:38Eleanor Janega?

  And indeed, you know, she's this gorgeous Southern French woman. And, you know, I think that when we imagine Gallic beauties, you know, that's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking like Juliette Binoche. I'm thinking about women like that, right?

• 46:50Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, absolutely. And I think, interestingly, we do have an idea of what Henry looks like. And this is given to us by Gerald of Wales, who is quite pro Henry, likes Henry. He writes all throughout Henry's reign.

• 47:07Matt Lewis?

  And I mean, I'll read the description that he gives us of Henry, because I don't think he paints him in a particularly nice light, given that we're so used to hearing that princes and kings are always the most handsome man in the room. They're always so ridiculously good looking. What Gerald tells us about Henry is, he writes, "Henry II, King of the English, was a man of ruddy complexion." I mean, that doesn't fit with the beauty ideal of being quite pale, does it? "With a large, round head." I mean, slow down.

• 47:36Eleanor Janega?

  Okay.

• 47:38Matt Lewis?

  He gets grey eyes. He gives him grey eyes. Fierce in anger and so fused with blood, fiery, mean, harsh voice, neck bent forward toward the shoulder a little, broad chest, strong arms and a fleshy body.

• 47:53Eleanor Janega?

  Hmm.

• 47:53Matt Lewis?

  I mean, none of that is, is, is making you think, "For..."

• 47:58Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, like, here's a looker, right? I suppose that what we are getting, though, is a really clear idea of a man who is a man of action, I suppose, right? You know, when we're, we've got the broad chest, strong arms, fleshy body, that's like, you know, virile, potency, a man's man, if you will, you know? Oh, clearly, he's got lots of excess blood, right? Which is what you're supposed to have if you're a man, right? Like, from the humoral theory. So, yeah, i- i- it's not particularly flattering, per se, but I guess it's, it's probably going to be true as a result of that, right? That, that's quite interesting.

• 48:39Matt Lewis?

  I, I think it makes it reliable because it's not simply saying that he, he meets all of the beauty standards of the day and is the most attractive man in the room. It's kind of giving him a real, a very real face that we can almost imagine. Although I will say, so I, I wrote a book about Henry and Eleanor, and I, I do a talk on it as well. And this was around about the time, you know, I'm not a massive fan of AI, but I was playing with AI and I thought, what happens if you put this description of, from Gerald of Wales into AI? Will it give me a picture that I think might look like Henry II? Because we don't have any portraiture of him or anything like that.

• 49:13Eleanor Janega?

  Hmm.

• 49:13Matt Lewis?

  So I put this description into, to AI and it's like, you know, a medieval king based on this description. And what it spat out was perhaps the sexiest man I have ever seen in my life.

• 49:26Matt Lewis?

  So, so AI, weirdly, AI seems to have a bit of a thing for Henry II, which I don't completely blame it.

• 49:31Eleanor Janega?

  AI wants to shag Henry II. Wow, okay, all right.

• 49:35Matt Lewis?

  I think it does. I'll show you the picture.

• 49:36Eleanor Janega?

  Please, show me the picture immediately. But, you know, if all the AI can do is mirror back things that humans have already done, perhaps this says something about the collective unconscious and we're all wanting to shag Henry II.

• 49:50Matt Lewis?

  I think that's fair. That's a fair comment. There's our subtitle for the episode.

• 49:55Matt Lewis?

  And I guess we ought to to move on to kind of the conclusion of this documentary because this is about their their rise, their separate lives and them eventually coming together. And what we really, really want is to go and make some more of their story. So please, everybody, watch it and and enjoy it and tell History Hit how amazing it is.

• 50:14Eleanor Janega?

  We are begging you. We want to keep making these.

• 50:19Matt Lewis?

  Please. So we ought to get on to how they become king and queen of England. So finally, after all those setbacks, 1152, after he's married Eleanor, Henry does manage to invade England. We get this kind of weird standoff with Stephen where they seem to, you know, Henry tears around the countryside a little bit, causing a bit of chaos. The two of them never really come to blows. There's a couple of times when they seem to line up either side of a river in the pouring rain and go, oh, if this river wasn't here, we'd definitely be having a fight right now.

• 50:48Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, that would get you. Oh.

• 50:51Matt Lewis?

  And then we get that one time they have a conference on an island in the middle of the river at which only Stephen and Henry are present. And then the chroniclers continue to tell us exactly what they discussed while they were on that island when no one else was there, as they do. So again, we have to be really careful about what they're putting into people's mouths. But essentially, the standoff is concluded when Stephen's son Eustace dies unexpectedly. And Stephen kind of makes an arrangement with Henry by which he effectively adopts him and names him as heir to the throne of England. So we've got this kind of almost 20 years of of conflict is kind of ended in a peaceful manner.

• 51:33Eleanor Janega?

  And it's a really interesting one. I think it's also funny where it's like, take that, Eustace, this poor guy. His dad's just like, yeah.

• 51:40Matt Lewis?

  There's a sense in the chroniclers that that Eustace saw this coming, that he thought his dad wasn't going to fight Henry. So he goes off into the the East Country, goes off into Norfolk and just goes on a mad rampage until he gets ill and dies. Just throws a massive tantrum.

• 51:55Eleanor Janega?

  You know, well, what might have been, am I right? With a wonderful consistency like that, he would have made a great king. Yeah, I do find that this is really interesting because, you know, we do then have Stephen agreeing that Henry is going to be the heir. And then Stephen dies in October of 1154. And

• 52:17Eleanor Janega?

  We don't see Eleanor and Henry rush to be crowned king and queen. And I find this incredibly telling. They are not crowned until the 19th of December. So they've got a good, long chunk of time in between. And I think that shows a fair amount of bravery on their part. But in the same way that Stephen letting Henry go back to France, I think is sort of showing, I'm not afraid, I am the true king. I think them really taking the time to be crowned says something about their confidence in what is happening.

• 52:57Matt Lewis?

  It's a really bold move when you think of the recent history of the English crown. Because Stephen had snatched the crown. Henry's grandfather, Henry I, had snatched the crown before that. They leave this kind of two-month window into which somebody else could have stepped. And I can't help wondering whether Henry does it very deliberately, almost as a dare. It's like, if you're going to show your hand, I dare ye to do it. I dare you. And if you don't do it, then you're accepting that I'm the king when I get there. Because there is nobody but me that can do it.

• 53:27Eleanor Janega?

  Make a peace with it, it's now or never kind of a thing. And nobody did anything fundamentally. And you're quite right too, because these are two of the wealthiest people in Europe. If you are going to try to face them down, you better come with a hell of an army.

• 53:41Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't have stood in Henry's way. Unless he looked like what AI thinks he looks like, and then I might have gone his way.

• 53:48Eleanor Janega?

  Hello, Henry.

• 53:49Matt Lewis?

  Hello.

• 53:50Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, am I in the way? Oh, no, you're going to have to push past me. Anyway, Eleanor of Aquitaine, I'm not trying to cheat on you with Henry II. Anyway, I guess here is a good place to kind of consider how significant Eleanor and Henry are in terms of the establishment of a real lasting dynasty, right?

• 54:17Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, I mean, we get into 331 years of their direct descendants ruling England. I mean, that's no mean feat. That's the longest surviving English dynasty to date. And I think there's a couple of really interesting things about what they do as well. So their relationship with Louis VII, so Eleanor's ex, which is kind of crafted by the fact that Henry's married his ex really, really quickly. And Henry has also accumulated far more of France than Louis controls, which makes the King of England then look like a huge, huge threat to the Capetian King of France. And in Louis VII's case, it takes him a long time to have a son. So I see him getting increasingly nervous.

• 55:01Matt Lewis?

  And I think the relationship with Louis VII and then his son that he does eventually have, Philip II Augustus, and the relationship that Philip has with Henry in his later years, and then also with Henry's sons, is something that I think we can see that defining the relationships between England and France for centuries that follow. This is the beginning, really, of the idea that England and France are enemies who are always at war.

• 55:25Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, absolutely. Because before this, I mean, what would be the point? I mean, sure, you've got Normandy as a real issue and one of the things that the kings of England never really liked, but the French king doesn't care. The French king's like, yeah, sure, buddy. Like, you're the Duke of Normandy and also an island with some sheep on it. Okay, brilliant, fine. But if you control Anjou, Aquitaine and Normandy, listen, now there's a problem. And that is going to be a much larger issue for the King of France. And fundamentally, it just means that money can flow in varying directions more easily. And listen.

• 56:08Eleanor Janega?

  They do have so much money, they do have so much power. It's this dynasty that really gives birth to some of, at least the most recognizable, the most household names of a lot of the medieval English kings.

• 56:22Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, I think, I mean, you know, just their children, you've got Richard the Lionheart and King John. So, you know, someone who has been remembered for centuries as one of the greatest warrior kings of England, up for debate, and someone who has been remembered as the worst king of England, probably not up for debate.

• 56:38Eleanor Janega?

  Probably not up for debate, yeah.

• 56:39Matt Lewis?

  No. So you've got kind of real polar opposites amongst their own children. But as you say, some of those most recognizable names, Edward III is a descendant of this pair, you know, the man who rules England for 50 years and gets us neck deep in the Hundred Years' War and all of those kind of things. You can stretch on to Henry V, you know, is part of this same dynasty. Some of the really famous names that we associate most with English medieval history can trace their lineage back to Henry and Eleanor.

• 57:10Eleanor Janega?

  And I mean, that is true all over the continent as well, because, listen, one thing I will say is that I believe that Henry and Eleanor's sons are garbage waste men, all of them, never, never did a good thing between them. Their daughters, on the other hand, consummate rulers, really incredible people.

• 57:30Matt Lewis?

  I think Henry and Eleanor's sons probably hated their sisters because they were such a good example of what children should be, that they made the brothers look so, so bad. And, you know, they all make spectacular marriages. And so the oldest daughter, Matilda, marries Henry the Lion, the Duke of Saxony and Bavaria, so, you know, is big in Germany. But we get this lovely story when Henry the Lion falls out with the Holy Roman Emperor and is, is kind of exiled. He, he decides to come to England to his father-in-law's house. And Matilda, we're told, you know, the Holy Roman Emperor says, you, you can stay here and I'll give you an income, you're perfectly safe, don't worry about it. And Matilda's like, no, it's fine, if my husband's going to England, so am I. And then the, the sources give us lots of, of really touching detail about Henry and

• 58:15Matt Lewis?

  Eleanor having their, the daughter they might never have expected to realistically see again, suddenly back in England with her husband and all of their children. So they're bringing the grandkids and you've got Henry and Eleanor like running around like idiots. And I imagine, you know, Henry being ridden by a hor, like a horse by his grandchildren and all that kind of stuff. You get this impression of a really nice. Close family environment for the time that Matilda is in exile in England.

• 58:40Eleanor Janega?

  I just think that, you know, I love that for her. She deserves it, right? Let's see, can we talk about the other Eleanor, though? So their daughter Eleanor marries incredibly well, right? So she marries Alfonso VIII, who is the King of Castile de Lelio. So she's a queen. She's just a straight up queen. And this is where these Spanish Eleanors start coming from, right? So when you have Eleanor of Castile, who will be the Queen of England later, it's as a result of these Eleanors making it fashionable down in Spain. And she does incredibly well down there, a very beloved queen, really considered to be a steady hand on the tiller.

• 59:24Eleanor Janega?

  And it's a really successful marriage, that one, Alfonso and Eleanor.

• 59:28Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, and we get, you know, Matilda's son will go on to become a Holy Roman Emperor. Otto IV? You know your emperors better than I do. Otto IV.

• 59:38Eleanor Janega?

  Well done.

• 59:39Matt Lewis?

  One of Eleanor's daughters will become Queen of France, you know, the mother of Louis IX, the saint. And then we've got the youngest daughter, Joan, who is first off married to William II, who is the King of Sicily, who is also a Norman, Norman kings of Sicily. And, and, you know, she seems to have done okay there until he dies and she gets wrapped up in the civil war there and Richard's on his way to crusade swings by. And I want to say rescues her. So we've got a fantastic episode on Joan in the back catalogue with Kath Hanley, who wrote a biography of Joan. And she very much makes the point that Richard looks like he swings by to save Joan. What he does is swing by to get Joan's money to fund his crusading desires. And then she gets, she gets married to Raymond VI, the Count of Toulouse.

• 1:00:24Matt Lewis?

  And this seems like such an unhappy marriage that she will later turn up at Fonte de Roaby, where her mom has retired. Pregnant, having left her husband, and she she asks to be inducted into the the nunnery and she's she's accepted as a pregnant married nun. But unfortunately dies, you know, not long after childbirth, she's she's fairly seriously ill by the time she she gets there. So I mean, just another incredible story from this family.

• 1:00:51Eleanor Janega?

  Hmm, you know, and and to have the force of will to make a move like that really speaks well of Joan, I would say, and, you know, shows that Eleanor, I think, did a great job raising her daughters, if not her sons. I'll just say that.

• 1:01:06Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, we'll ignore them for now. Did not do a great. I mean, Eleanor's, one of their biggest failures, Henry and Eleanor, is giving us John, really, isn't it? It's it's hard to get around that.

• 1:01:15Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, well, you know what happened there? Eleanor basically didn't raise him. He was just with Henry the whole time. So, you know, there's your issue.

• 1:01:21Matt Lewis?

  Fair. And I guess the, so a big question for the end of this, we want people to go and watch the documentary, so we're probably going to over egg this here. But does, does the rise of the Plantagenets, the birth of this new dynasty, is this a moment that defines medieval English history?

• 1:01:36Eleanor Janega?

  Yes, thank you for coming. But yeah, yeah, absolutely, because I think this is, this is really, you know, that they are the heads of what we end up calling the Plantagenet Empire. They are the people that we imagine when we think about kings and queens of England, and they they really put England on the map. Because of their lands in France and their incredible connections across the continent, all these really wonderful marriages that they make for their children, they really establish England as a key player within Europe, and it it simply hadn't been before. It just hadn't been.

• 1:02:18Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, and I think that's driven home by the fact that by by the time Henry is getting on a little bit, and he's been king for for kind of 30 years, he's seen very much as this kind of Senior political figure in Europe, he's the grown up. You know, everybody's going to Henry to try and get their their feuds resolved. When Philip Augustus becomes King of France, when Louis VII dies, he's still quite young and he he relies on Henry to help him out, you know, and then repays him very poorly for the assistance that Henry does give him. And, you know, the patriarch of Jerusalem is coming to Henry with the keys to the city of Jerusalem and asking him to go and be king of Jerusalem. I mean, there is almost no way to comprehend how well regarded Henry was by this point in his reign.

• 1:03:04Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:03:04Matt Lewis?

  By everyone except his sons.

• 1:03:06Eleanor Janega?

  This is, I think, really the apogee of their power. You know, that everyone is is kind of looking at them. They're a golden couple. And I think I like to remember these good times, Matt, you know. Again, everyone go watch this so that we can make some more films about the not so good times. But listen, can we can we celebrate? I want to take the win. I'm taking the dub.

• 1:03:28Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, we're doing it. Yeah, but please, please go and watch it so we can make some more because we're going to get you rebellious sons. We're going to get you Thomas Becket. We're going to get you, did Henry imprison his wife? All of those kinds of stuff, if we're allowed to make more.

• 1:03:41Eleanor Janega?

  Absolutely. I want some troubadour action, so come on, guys, don't let me down.

• 1:03:46Matt Lewis?

  You've tried that once. We had troubadour action at Chateau d'Avrill. It was not pretty.

• 1:03:52Eleanor Janega?

  Matt, I love you so much. I don't know if you count as a troubadour.

• 1:03:57Matt Lewis?

  Whoa, whoa. I wrote that music myself.

• 1:04:02Eleanor Janega?

  Well, Matt, thank you so much for coming up from the dungeon and chatting about your favorite married couple and mine.

• 1:04:11Matt Lewis?

  Always a pleasure. Please don't send me back. Please don't send me back.

• 1:04:18Eleanor Janega?

  The ascent to power. Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II is available to subscribers. So go find the link in the show notes to this episode. And if you watch it enough, we get to make more about the rest of their story. So we're all relying on you to make that happen.

• 1:04:34Matt Lewis?

  Please. There are new instalments of Gone Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please come back to join Eleanor and I for more from the greatest millennium in human history. Don't forget to also subscribe or follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all of your friends and family that you've gone medieval. You can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week at historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 1:05:00Eleanor Janega?

  Anyway, we're going to let you go, so you can go watch the documentary. Please.

• 1:05:08Eleanor Janega?

  I've been Eleanor Yanaga. Please tell all your friends and family that you've just gone medieval. See you next time.

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