A Complete History of Medieval Scotland

What if Scotland’s story began with a miracle in battle, a white cross in the sky, and a kingdom forged through war, faith and sheer ambition? Matt Lewis is joined by Professor Murray Pittock to race through medieval Scotland, from the Saltire’s legendary origins to Picts, Gaels, Vikings and the rise of Alba. They trace how a patchwork of peoples became a nation. MORE Viking Siege of Dumbarton Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/mo/podcast/viking-scotland-the-siege-of-dumbarton/id1564113746?i=1000755079890 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/4AAzDU9kYOdmx93GtG9u9F Origins of Scottish Independance Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/ch/podcast/origins-of-scottish-independence/id1564113746?i=1000614931744 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/5dkxleVKAtySzVF5Da3xX3 Gone Medieval is presented by Matt Lewis. Audio editor is Amy Haddow, the producer is Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds. Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week PLUS early access, ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Matt Lewis?

  From long-lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places, to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr Eleanor Jarniger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life, only on History Hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand-new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:42Speaker 01

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• 1:24Matt Lewis?

  Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. Welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We've got the most intriguing mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and latest groundbreaking research, from the Vikings to the printing press, from kings to popes to the crusades. We cross centuries and continents to delve into rebellions, plots, and murders to find the stories, big and small, that tell us how we got here. Find out who we really were with Gone Medieval.

• 2:06Matt Lewis?

  On a blustery September morning in the year 832, two armies faced one another on a battlefield somewhere in what is now eastern Scotland. One belonged to the Picts and Scots, led by King Angus. The other was an invading force from the Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of Northumbria. Outnumbered and fearing annihilation, legend has it that Angus prayed for divine intervention. Then, as dawn broke overhead, a white cross appeared against the blue sky. Inspired by this heavenly sign, his warriors charged into battle and won a stunning victory. Whether true or not, the story became one of Scotland’s founding myths.

• 2:51Matt Lewis?

  The White Diagonal Cross of St. Andrew, the Saltire, remains Scotland’s national flag to this day. And while the tale clearly riffs on an overused trope of medieval myth and legend, it also helps paint a helpful picture of the tensions, fissures and factions that ran through Scotland’s contested medieval history. In the Middle Ages, there were many Scotlands: lands of Picts and Gaels, Britons and Northumbrians, rival kingdoms and competing identities. And yet by the dawn of the early modern age, these diverse peoples had been moulded into a single realm: one that survived Viking invasions, resisted English conquest and emerged as one of Europe’s most distinctive kingdoms.

• 3:35Matt Lewis?

  I’m Matt Lewis and this is Gone Medieval. Today, we’re taking on the rather ambitious challenge of plotting the complete history of medieval Scotland in one episode. Joining me is Professor Murray Pittock, author of the new book The Shortest History of Scotland. And together, we’ll journey from the Age of the Picts and the coming of St. Columba, through the rise of the kings of Alba and the Wars of Independence, to trace how a recognizably modern and vibrant Scotland was forged in the crucible of the Middle Ages.

• 4:10Matt Lewis?

  Welcome to Gone Medieval Murray, it's great to have you with us today.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  Great to be here Matt, looking forward to it.

• 4:15Matt Lewis?

  I mean, we've been limbering up, haven't we? We're warmed up because we're just going to have a little thousand year sprint through Scottish history as quickly as we possibly can.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 4:23Matt Lewis?

  All the pressure is on you. We're going to be ambitious, let's start ambitious. If we're going to try and cover the whole kind of medieval history of Scotland, we need to obviously start at the beginning. So when we think about the fall of Roman Britain, who are the different kind of tribes and peoples that inhabited the land that we we call Scotland? Who is there?

• 4:43Speaker 02

  We have some Roman names. I'm not quite sure how much faith we should put in them, but we have got obviously the Picts. I suspect, though not identified, we got the Scots and we have the other Bretonnich peoples such as the Votadini, those figures who are the heroes and the subject of the Godouthen, the Welsh language epic, which commemorates their 6th century raid on Catech Catechic in Yorkshire, which led them to get a bloody nose and a bit more besides.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  So those are among the central ones. The Picts are still called the Picts, but they're called that because in the 4th century, they began to be called Picti, the painted ones, by the Romans who traded with them from the Adrian's Wall area and elsewhere. So they're the bulk of the inhabitants of the landmass that we now call Scotland. But although we used to think that the Scots came in as kind of Irish invaders in the 5th century, it's all a bit 19th century. If you look at very early Irish traditions, you're probably looking at a borderless Irish Scottish world in which

• 6:04Speaker 02

  there's Gaelic, although basically they were the same language then and for much later, spoken right across an area from the western shores of what is now Scotland to Cork in Ireland.

• 6:17Matt Lewis?

  Is there very much that separates those groups of people, either in terms of culture or religion?

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Religions are rather hard again to be exact about. In terms of culture too, you can see the basis of, perhaps could even see it, I'm being maybe a little bit fanciful, in the great hill forts like Trappelain Law in the south east of Scotland, of the things that become central to Scottish experience. Association of family, association of institution or group as it was then, rather institution, and association of place. Who are you related to? How do we know each other? Where do you come from? Those questions. And I think all the peoples of what became Scotland have that to some degree.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  But of course, we know the Picts, the Picts and Scots best. And the Picts too, probably like the Votodini, if indeed the Votodini can really be distinguished from the Picts, are Bretonnich speakers. That is Welsh speakers, functionally.

• 7:22Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And you sort of alluded to my next question, but I was going to ask about how important that connection to Ireland was for the west of Scotland and whether we should see the west of Scotland as almost part of an Irish group at that point.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  I think that I probably wouldn't, I mean, yes, except I probably wouldn't use the term Irish. But I think the key element is, is that it was in, not until the 12th century, that the papacy started to request that Scooty was used as a Latin term to describe Scots and not interchangeably to describe Irish and Scots, mostly Irish, but sometimes Scots. They were not fundamentally distinct groups, but then I wouldn't want to call them Irish either, if you see what I mean. They are a Scottish, a North Scotch Irish, which is a different American term, but they are fundamentally

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Gaelic speakers who are ethnoculturally the ancestors of many of today's Scots Irish people living in a continuum right across Scotland, western Scotland and Ireland.

• 8:32Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah. And one of the really early beneficiaries that we hear about of that continuum that you talk about is St Columba. Can you tell us a little bit about who he is and the work that he does to Christianise Scotland?

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Well, St Columba was a member of the Irish nobility, a princely family, and he comes to Scotland, or rather, I suppose, what we might, he's active both with the Picts and the Scots, but sets up the monastery at Iona, which is very much in the Scohter Irish or Scohty kind of world in the West, coming from a situation where he's effectively probably mixed up in a murder in what is now Ireland, but becomes nonetheless an important religious leader. And one of the things he does is he carries out very close relationships and

• 9:22Speaker 02

  relationship building with the kings of Scotia and the kings of Pickland. And as a result, from Columba's alliance with the Crown, or the Crowns at that stage, comes the development of a medieval Scottish polity which very closely links the King and the Church and the person of Columba as the symbol of clerical and royal authority. And of course, Aidan, his monk who writes The Life of St Columba, was very important too in spreading the image

• 10:03Speaker 02

  and story of Columba. And of course, in The Life of St Columba, we get the first reference to the Loch Ness monster, at least it happens to be in the River Ness, but let's not worry too much about details.

• 10:15Matt Lewis?

  No, no, no. We'll just keep it in Loch Ness. So should we consider that that early connection between the Church and the State, for want of a better phrase? Is that important in the development of Scottish nationhood from that point onwards?

• 10:31Speaker 02

  It is, I think. I think the Synod of Whitby and the resolution of the date of Easter in the 7th century, which is seen fundamentally by, in the 19th century, is seen as some kind of struggle between the ancient Celtic church and alien Catholic power, but is actually really a debate between a left behind group who hadn't yet caught up with the changing dates, way of calculating the date of Easter, and modern thought, or past then for modern thought, within the Western Catholic Church. The sense of the crown and the church as involved in a project of joint mutual support

• 11:10Speaker 02

  of modernisation, both then and much later in the reign of the El Colloch III and Queen Margaret becomes Saint Margaret, who also does a great deal to change and develop and improve the Scottish church, though without despising its past, but it brings it more into the, perhaps more into the European mainstream. Yes, that remains absolutely central to the way in which the church and crown developed together in Scotland, not least in the, you know, David the First in the 12th century is called a sear sanch for the crune because he imports and develops and pays for so many religious foundations. And in doing that, he stretches the Scottish state's ability to pay.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  And by the time of the Little Ice Age, when climate, the climate was turning down and Scotland was not so productive as it had been at the close of the 13th century, then that was one of the things that triggered the Reformation because Scotland had a huge amount of productive capacity invested in the church and in religious orders.

• 12:15Matt Lewis?

  From around the 8th century, we begin to see the emergence of some much more clearly kind of defined Scottish kingdoms like Alba and Outklt that goes on to become Strathclyde and Benicia. Why do you think we're beginning to see these things solidify? And do you think there's any influence there from increasing Viking incursions?

• 12:34Speaker 02

  The short answer to that is yes, I mean, at least some part of the crystallization of polities in Scotland comes from external pressure, two kinds of external pressure. First of all, pressure from Northumbria, and Benicia is really part of the Northumbrian realm, to the south, and also pressure from the Vikings from the end of the eighth, beginning of the ninth century, from the north and east. But I think there's also the question as to the extent to which Reged, as it's called, and some of the Welsh-speaking kingdoms in what's now the northwest of England, and Alcleth Strathclyde have a commonality, in the sense that we know very little about

• 13:19Speaker 02

  them, really, but they probably have a strong degree of cultural commonality. Alcleth is permanently, because they're both Welsh speakers and they don't think they're English and Scots, they think they're the same sorts of people and they probably are. The extent to which political borders are important between them is, I think, maybe a bit moot in the early part of this period, certainly. Strathclyde, Alcleth never recovers from the Viking siege of 870 on the Barton Rock, their hilltop capital. And although they move the head of the kingdom to govern in what is now Glasgow, they never, I think, properly recover from the strength they had before that.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  It's very interesting because that's the same year, 870, that a huge army is raised in England by the Danes for the Viking Kingdom of York to challenge effectively. Those first few years of the reign of Alfred the Great, huge challenges from Vikings in England too. So there's a degree of similarity in the emergence of both England and Scotland as polities, and they actually developed at the same time. So when Constantine II defeats the Vikings at Strathurn in 904, he's the last king to be called King of the Picts and King of the Scots. We traditionally associate the Scottish Kingdom uniting with Kenneth MacAlpin and the

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Eighth Forties, but that's more of a convenience. He was probably king of both, but there had been kings of both before, but really by the time of Constantine the Second. But likewise, it was really Edward the Elder and even more clearly Athelstan, who united the English Kingdom, and that's really very close in time to the uniting of the Scottish Kingdom under Constantine. But the critical reason, there are probably two reasons why a different kingdom developed in the north of the island. The Frost is quite simply Hadrian's Wall and the persistence of the Wall. After all, the Kingdom of Scots always wanted the land leased to the Wall until the 13th century. Didn't always have it, but they tended to pursue it. And also,

• 15:28Speaker 02

  the second is the defeat of the Northumbrian Warband by Bride the Third and his allies at Dunicum, near Forfar in AD 685. So that's, I mean, that probably is the first decisive battle of what becomes Scottish history, because it stops Northumbrian incursion into Scotland.

• 15:49Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah. And how significant during this period are the kings of Alba?

• 15:54Speaker 02

  The first kings really of Alba, as it's, as the term is used, is Constantine the Second and his successors, rather than kings of the Scots and Picts. There's a Scottish habit, which you can discern early in the medieval period, of being more aggressive than you can actually get away with. And Constantine gets himself fundamentally in trouble with Athelstan, who makes, Athelstan has got designs in being, of being Brett Valda, overlord of the whole of the Roman province of Britannia. But he also has designs on places that were outside the Roman province of Britannia in Scotland. And he defeats Constantine. Constantine is,

• 16:40Speaker 02

  effectively goes down to Buckingham to give homage to Athelstan as a subking. He's given the first place among subkings in the island, but nonetheless, it seems to have annoyed him, because the first thing he does when he goes back is raise a great allied army with the Danes in the north of England to attack and hopefully overthrow Athelstan. And the battle takes place, the best site we have, we're not certain, is in the Wirral. Brunamburgh and Constantine is defeated. I have to say he was a trier. I mean, he must have been getting on for 70 when that battle was fought.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  But he was clearly so determined not to accept Athelstan's overlordship that he went for total overthrow and lost.

• 17:30Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, which does point to a clearly kind of defined and identifiable sense of of Scottishness and independence, at least from England as it as it's emerging at this point. So in Constantine's mind and those of his followers, there must have been a sense that they were Scottish now.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Well, I think we're not probably there's still a number of peoples in Scotland. In fact, we know there are a number of peoples in Scotland to identify separately. The however, it's also how your enemies identify you. So the Anglo Saxons start using the term Scots in the early mid 10th century. So yes, they are identifying the forces opposing them as a unitary force. Sometimes, of course, these things aren't. You know, but they're categorized as such by those fighting them and occasionally by themselves. So that's seems to have happened to some extent.

• 18:21Matt Lewis?

  And is it around this time too that we get the emergence of the St Andrews Saltire as the the kind of flag of Scotland?

• 18:28Speaker 02

  Allegedly. So it's of an earlier, an even earlier date and is supposed to have appeared in Lothian in as a sign in the sky and a not too jet trails, but two traces of cloud crossed over a blue sky. But we don't actually see it used by the Scotland explicitly or by the Scottish army until much later in the medieval period. So it's possibly there, but we don't know it's there.

• 18:54Matt Lewis?

  They might just have been giving it sort of ancient origins, mythical origins when they start using it.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  Indeed. It's not one which has got claims to be the oldest flag with the Danish flag in Europe. Whether it is or not is another matter.

• 19:05Matt Lewis?

  I'm not going to disagree. How do the kings of Alba then start to to spread their influence south? Because they'll reach out into areas that are covered by Northumbria, for example. Are they? Are we seeing them take advantage there of of again Viking incursions into England and the Norman invasion in the south of England? Are the Scots in the north seeing that as an opportunity for them to take some land?

• 19:26Speaker 02

  The Scots in 1018 at Caram effectively drive Northumbria out of what is now Scotland. And that starts to shift the border to the Tweed.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Northumbria up till that point probably had about thirty miles or thirty five miles of territory inside what's now Scotland on the east coast. But Scotland was taking advantage of what I think is, you know, this is not how it features in English history, but what was effectively the collapse of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom. Ethelred the unread is incompetence and brutality. The fact that first of all, Swain fought beard and then his successor Cnut turned it into a Danish or quasi Danish polity. So there were a lot of, there were a lot of problems and it wasn't until Edward the

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Confessor came to power in ten forty two that Scots ambitions were reined in. After the conquest, there is a real geopolitical moment when Edgar Atheling, the heir presumptive to the throne after the death of Harold the Second, Hastings and visitors to British Museum this summer can decide whether or not he's being knocked down by, he's being knocked down by a spear or an arrow, since both are possible in the Byte Tapestry. Edgar Atheling and his sister Margaret come to the Scottish court and Malcolm the Third marries Margaret and he also tries to this, to support Northumbria, always a semi-detached part, indeed, till rather later than this, in some ways a semi-detached part of the

• 21:05Speaker 02

  English kingdom, but to support Northumbria as a stalking horse to push William, to push William out, or at least partly out. It's possible Edgar Atheling had promised Malcolm Yorkshire as well as Northumberland if he were to restore him to the Saxon throne, but doesn't work. William responds as William and his successors certainly knew how, with the utmost brutality and Malcolm the Third falls back into Scotland. But he keeps on, I mean, his children by Margaret, all are very robust Anglo-Saxon names, and he's obviously looking to have the possibility of the children by his first

• 21:50Speaker 02

  Celt or Norse wife as being son and heir there, becoming King of Scots, and possibly one of his sons by Margaret, becoming King in England. So, once again, it's this inordinate, one might say, geopolitical level of ambition for somebody who is much less well off than William in terms of troops, resources, power.

• 22:17Matt Lewis?

  He's dreaming big, though, you've got to love that.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  He's dreaming big, and then, of course, he gets killed in a squabble at Annick in 1093, so that is the end of him.

• 22:28Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. How much of a sense do we have about how the Scots kingdom is governed at this point? Is there an identifiable capital? Is it quite a centralised system, or is it delegated into regions?

• 22:40Speaker 02

  No, it's very decentralised. Effectively, there are large-scale lords in terms of peace, military leaders in terms of war, which we call Mormains. The term is a bit slippery. Some Mormains thought of themselves, particularly those from the family of Macbeth, who of course became King of Scots, as sub-kings, or indeed kings, and there are persistent problems from that family against what you might call the central power, but the central would have to be in inverted commas. And some became great territorial, probably became the great territorial magnates like the Earl of Fife, who succeeded them. One of the things

• 23:22Speaker 02

  you see about in Scotland as opposed to England is that lordships and names such as Earl of Fife are linked with lots of lands in Fife, whereas the Duke of Norfolk, say, may have tonnes of lands in Yorkshire, and, you know, the Earl of Surrey may have lots of lands in the north as well, that they're not linked, clearly linked to geographical leadership. But in Scotland, they really do tend to be, and that's a difference which reflects the de-centred nature of the polity. If we were to go slightly later, and that was in some ways part of the salvation of Scotland, because to some extent, some of the Franco-Norman nobility, who were not,

• 24:04Speaker 02

  didn't conquer, but were invited in by King David the First in the 12th century, although they'd actually been first invited in by Macbeth in the 1050s, but not to settle. But some of them in the 12th century thought to themselves, may they may have kindred who held title in England and certainly in France, that actually, the Scots king was significantly less able to tell them what to do. I mean, of course, they still did a lot of what they wanted to do in England and France, but the Scots king was really a lot less able at holding them back. And so they thought, when the time came of crisis at the end of the 13th century, well, we might support the Scots king, because actually, we get to do what we like here. So that's all right.

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• 25:56Matt Lewis?

  And we begin to see a period from the 12th century onwards in which, under David I, William the Lion, Alexander II, there's this switching between allying with the English and fighting against the English. And they tend to have fairly, generally quite bad relationships with the Plantagenet kings, but sometimes not quite so bad too. Why do you think Scottish kings are becoming so connected to English kings at this point?

• 26:22Speaker 02

  Well, I think, first of all, Scotland provides, under David I, Scotland provides, again, advantageously, because England's got a civil war between Stephen and Matilda, a major political and military threat to England. The Scots crown backs Matilda because she is the Holy Roman Empress and she is also the granddaughter of Melchizedek III. So she is Scotland's, if you think like that, biggest geopolitical counter. And in doing so, David I, the English crown still wants to claim, so the English Church wants to

• 27:04Speaker 02

  claim sovereignty over the Scottish Church. David I argues that there should be a, I mean, there are arguments for the Scots having the authority of their own church, as they come to do. But David actually thinks about settling up the headship of the primacy of the Church at York because he has every intention of capturing York. And he doesn't, he's not far off it. He exerts very significant power across the north of England, more than any other Scottish king does. And that sets up a reaction because Stephen, who dies in 1154, succeeded by Henry II. Henry the Second is, even at this distance, a hell of a tough bastard.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  David has just died. David's son and heir has just died and we're left with the teenage male, Colum the Fourth, who goes to see, you know, Henry to ensure that his claims can be upheld, that Henry tells him to sod off, basically, and that he's got to sign up for giving them all away. And basically, he backs down because he's a teenager and then Henry's a thug. And also, Henry is quite prepared to deploy not only English power, but now the lands of his queen, which involve very significant possessions in the west of France. So he's a very powerful king.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  But then, when William the Lion comes to contest with Henry, and indeed, indeed, he dedicates the Arbroath Abbey to St Thomas of Becket, particularly just to thumb his nose at Henry, because Henry's had Thomas of Becket killed. He loses critically, effectively becomes a dependent of the English king, and Henry is allowed to intrude some English occupation, in theory anyway, to some extent in practice, into southern Scotland, and also hold, you know, William effectively under his thumb. It's very dynamic at this stage because Richard the First, who really wants to go

• 29:14Speaker 02

  and kill Saracens in the Holy Land, basically allows William to buy back all his rights with a substantial cash payment, which the Scottish state raises for their king. And William continues then to extend his power in Scotland, but once again runs into trouble because he's seen as too close to foreign interests. And it needs John to help him put down the revolt in 2011-12. So it's all over the place. Then, the biggest, I think, the thing that probably comes to a non-Scottish, or to some Scottish audiences, comes as the most surprising answer to a question, how far has a Scottish army ever advanced into England, occurs in 1215-16, when Alexander the Second, taking

• 29:59Speaker 02

  advantage of John's weakness at this point, brings Scotland's army to Dover.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  With the aim of, which he does, of offering homage to King Louis of France for a whole range of lands he's taken over in the north of England. And it must be said, the barons in Yorkshire submit, and the North generally submit to Alexander II. And it's only because the King Louis is eventually defeated by the now, John dies fortuitously, and Henry III comes to power, only because the French king is defeated, does Alexander II lose a very advantageous position. But he does lose it. Eventually, he has to put up with the quick claim of York in 1237, which means fundamentally

• 30:49Speaker 02

  that Scotland gives up its claim to the northern counties of England, down to the Wall and in some cases beyond. And it establishes what is perhaps Andorra has a case, but I'm not quite sure how good a case it is, what is arguably the earliest land border in Scotland. Because apart from Berwick and a few square kilometres round the Solway, debatable land round the Solway for us, the border set at the quick claim of York between England and Scotland, almost 800 years ago, is the border we have today.

• 31:21Matt Lewis?

  I'm always fascinated during this period, during the anarchy with David, and as you mentioned there with Alexander, you know, getting submission from the barons of the the north of England. The English in the north at least, don't seem too concerned about being ruled by Scotland. You know, when David is in charge of the north of Scotland, everyone seems actually fairly comfortable with it.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I don't think it's a big deal for the baronial classes at this stage. I think it's probably, and indeed possibly for ordinary people, it's harder to know. I think it's probably the extent of wars in the round, the Scottish Wars of Independence, and the extent of attacks on the north of England by the Scottish Crown in that period, which are critical. Though it must be said that there were slaving raids on the north of England to carry off principally women, but not just women, for enslavement in Scotland, which can't exactly have been popular.

• 32:14Matt Lewis?

  How significant a problem for Scotland was the death of Alexander III without a clear male heir? Because they've had a good, long, strong run of kings by this point.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  It was enormously significant, absolutely enormously. Margaret. Was the heir and of course, once again, like Malecol IV, it was Scotland's misfortune to have a highly aggressive and very well armed and organised Plantagenet King in the shape of Edward I on the throne south of the border. Margaret dies on the voyage to Scotland and effectively an interregnum succeeds and Edward is called into adjudicate because there isn't a clear successor to the crown and he makes certain claims he won't adjudicate unless people say that he's the supreme authority.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  And although sometimes in later controversies this is made a lot of, I think for most people it wasn't necessarily a big deal to say Edward, you're the supreme authority here. They weren't saying, yeah, you own his lock, stock and barrel. It was a formal submission so that he could make the decision. But of course, it was to have terrifically bad consequences because he chose King John rather than the very elderly Robert V to Bruce, Robert the competitor, who was probably, which shows the medieval, he was probably 77 at the time that John Balliol became king. His competitor was 77, so medieval people didn't always peg out at 45.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  But John Balliol, of course, drawing on the significantly Franco Norman and French sympathising nobility concluded the old alliance with France in 1296. And that was quite clearly seen by Edward I as a stab in the back. It's not as if this hadn't been coming. Scots were active on the French side in crusades in the 13th century. There's a very clear tendency under Alexander II and Alexander III to move closer to France. In Alexander III's time, people start to complain about English barons, all those, clearly his

• 34:35Speaker 02

  majority of their interest in England, the whole land in Scotland. So. The Old Alliance is coming before it's signed, sealed and delivered. But Edward the first is absolutely intolerable. He invades Scotland and of course, Baileal being the strategic genius he wasn't, effectively meets him at Dunbar in East Lothian. Effectively, basically a very disadvantageous ground. Just when Edward's supply chains are fully intact. He's just crossed the border. Let's stop him at once. Basically, the further north you try to stop him, the more chance you've got. And John Baileal's beaten and effectively runs up the east coast and is overtaken.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  And has to surrender his badges and clothes of royal office. And so becomes what was called tomb to bard, empty coat. He got nothing left.

• 35:27Matt Lewis?

  And I mean, does the Old Alliance point to a Scottish desire to really get out from this idea of English overlordship? That they're looking for allies somewhere else that can bolster their ability to remain independent from England?

• 35:40Speaker 02

  So I think in the early stages, it is more the still that is Franco Norman nobility, seeing actually Scotland as a more advantageous base for themselves than England, or at least one worth cultivating and one that's prepared to reach out to France, which of course gives Scotth an extra power. But the Scottish kings, until the Wars of Independence really, the Scottish kings do, and sometimes afterwards, habitually overestimate their actual capacity to compete with England. So I'm not sure they realised how potentially weak they were. And it's worth noting that when it comes to say, the papal tax returns in 1296, the

• 36:24Speaker 02

  diocese of St Andrews is not far away from the diocese of Canterbury in terms of value. Scotland's richest diocese in the centre and south of the country are quite close to English competitors. So they probably weren't as economically disparate as they later became.

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• 37:51Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. I love how this is becoming the almost continual story, though, of Scotland sort of overreaching, overinflating its own ability to achieve things that it can never quite achieve. I mean, this period of the Wars of Independence is, it's packed with huge names. William Wallace, Robert the Bruce, battles at Stirling Bridge and at Bannockburn. Do we see a really solidifying sense of Scottish nationhood? Is it changing during this period? Is it becoming something different than it has been up until this point?

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Well, in my own view, as it's probably there in the 12th and 13th centuries, undoubtedly, it gets a big boost from the War of Independence. I mean, that's, you know, what, um, common sacrifices, which were the way in which both Abraham Lincoln and later Ernest Renault referred to nation building are very important. And there was an awful lot of common sacrifice in Scotland in the 50 years from 1296.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  So yeah, that was, it was important, but also what was important was a formulation of, one has to say, some of the most advanced political ideas available certainly in Europe and possibly globally at the time, and which were put forward initially by Scotland's leading overseas academic voice, Don Scotus, the Blessed John of Duns, as Professor of Paris in thirteen hundred, and we used as arguments, or some of the arguments by Baldred Bisset, who was a Scottish, not yet at that stage, was to become a Scottish Archdeacon, and was Professor of Civil Law Bologna, who brought Scotland's case to the Papal Curragh

• 39:30Speaker 02

  in thirteen oh one. Scotus argued that human communities had the right to choose their own leaders, and that those leaders are used to protect them, and once they were chosen, they weren't, as Hobbes would later argue, chosen for all time. Tough luck if he's a nutcase, he's your nutcase, but they could be chosen at intervals and replaced. So, that kind of thinking, and also from somebody who was, as an individual thinker, the primary thinker about freedom in the medieval period, I mean, because Scotus is the philosopher of individual freedom, what constitutes our freedom, freedom of will, theologically and personally, as well as talking about the freedom of nations, absolutely, it's

• 40:13Speaker 02

  right, influences the Declaration of Our Broth, which is a document that crystallizes much of this, and the references to Scottish freedom, and which you can find in the great poem, later fortieth century poem, about Bruce's campaign, Archdeacon John Barbour's "The Bruce, our freedom is a noble thing, freedom make man have liking, freedom or solace do man gives, he lives at ease that freely lives." And the great opposition which Barbour makes in the poem between freedom as the principle of the individual and national as against tyranny, enthralment, enslavement to another, to another king, another country.

• 40:56Matt Lewis?

  And having, we've constantly talked about this, got sort of having... Ideas bigger than they were capable of perhaps delivering. This is a moment where we see them defeat what is at least on paper, a more powerful English kingdom. Why do you think they're able to do this? Is it simply the incompetence of Edward the Second in England? Or is there something else going on that's tipping the scales in Scotland's favour?

• 41:21Speaker 02

  No, that Robert the Bruce is one of the leading military geniuses of the medieval period. And he has some very, very strong supporters, such as Ranulph Thurlamare and Sir James Douglas. From the, it's going to be truly, I think, the first victory he wins after his initial series of defeats. Robert doesn't lose another battle. Throughout his battle ridden career for more than 20 years, he just doesn't lose. He beats his Scottish opponents, he beats his English opponents, he beats Edward the First at Banat Byrne, he beats Edward the Second's army at Byland in Yorkshire in 1322 with huge loss of life.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  He beats Edward the Third's army in Weirdale. And that's the difference. He almost, through his brother Edward, takes over the whole of Ireland. He's got ambitions to create a countervailing Scooty type Scottish Irish polity, which will put enormous pressure, given the relative sizes, they don't have the Industrial Revolution as a population here, on the English polity. So yes, Robert the Bruce is extremely ambitious. And he comes very close. He does succeed personally in getting it all right. But nobody else could quite manage what he'd done.

• 42:49Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. Yeah. So we ought to be looking at his brilliance rather than anything else.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  I think so. I mean, people still prefer Wallace because he's not, Wallace was not an ordinary bloke. Wallace was a toff by anybody's calculations. But to most people, Scott Wallace in Scotland, Wallace is seen as an ordinary bloke. People prefer the ordinary bloke who is an underdog who lost. You know, that's what, that's of course a Scottish and perhaps a British feature of preferring the underdog. But, you know, Bruce is not an underdog. Bruce was a winner. And Scotland exists today because of King Robert the First.

• 43:22Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And as we move on from the, the success in the, the War of Independence through the, the kind of 14th and 15th century, do we see, as a result of this, do we see a newly confident Scotland? Do we see kind of cultural and economic growth and vibrance partly as a result of the, the victories in the Wars of Independence?

• 43:42Speaker 02

  Culture, I think probably Scotland struggles to be as well off as it was under Alexander the Third, actually, because the Wars of Independence take a huge toll economically. Robert has a policy of basically destroying all castles that might be occupied. So although castles aren't at a modern scale, economic loci, they certainly are at a medieval scale. It's quite important, the kind of market provided by a well occupied castle. The climate is perhaps a little bit later, starting to turn against Scotland in terms of what it can achieve. But there are a lot of achievements. And one of the things is that you'd see, and this was evident

• 44:23Speaker 02

  even before King Robert, is the early formation of quite sophisticated institutions. First of all, the widespread creation of butter grammar schools in the 12th and 13th century, universities from St Andrews in 1411. And, you know, by the, even until the 18th century, Scotland had the largest number of places for university per capita in Europe. And organisations like the Faculty of Advocates, the effective, the, the legal profession with rights to plead in 1532, and later on, Society of Writers to the Signet and others. So I know we're going slightly

• 45:05Speaker 02

  towards the end of the medieval period now, but there is, there is a continuum of, of the creation of quite significant institutions geared towards educational and professional development. And there's also a lot of Scots who go abroad. And they repatriate some wealth, it's difficult to say how much, into Scotland in this period. So one of the things is as Scotland becomes, finds it more difficult to sustain export markets at scale, because it's, and its tastes are getting more and more expensive, and its, its exports are, with the exception of some luxuries like

• 45:45Speaker 02

  salmon, fairly routine, that actually what Scots start to do is to go and set up business in the receiving ports, in Rotterdam, in the Baltic, in Norway, to try not only control the trade which they're involved in, but also to control the export trade insofar as they can from those destinations. So the sense of Scottish engagement with, with Europe and European institutions, and Scottish export of many of its elites to actually spend time in European cities or to settle there, is a medieval initiative. And it makes a

• 46:27Speaker 02

  significant difference to the way which Scotland develops as a kingdom. And as we move later on in the medieval period, the status of the people that the kings of Scots marry, in general, keeps on rising. And eventually, of course, to the stage where the daughter of the King of Scots is a fit match for the future King of France.

• 46:49Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And the, the old alliance continues to be incredibly important through this period too. We, we quite often see Scots forces fighting with the French in the Hundred Years' War in France. Do we see Scotland, we, you've talked a little bit there about the ways in which they are sort of focusing on the continent, rather than the British Isles maybe in terms of trade. Do we see them having a much more continental outlook than, than perhaps England does?

• 47:14Speaker 02

  I think England's got, I think England's huge contribution to the international world trade is a, and the Low Countries is a continental outlook. I think probably Scotland's a lot more diverse. I mean, it's not the Scots who want to trade with England, though some of them are very keen on the idea, no doubt. And you do get lots of comments about nationality is not really a modern thing. You do get lots of comments about people from, from England and Scotland in both sides of the border in the medieval period. There are only 50 Scots in London as late as 1567. And you know, the the Council of Aberdeen in the fifteenth century, we're very fortunate with Aberdeen. We've got Borough Council, and it's dating back to thirteen ninety eight.

• 47:57Speaker 02

  In the fifteenth century, twice issues orders to the population of the city to stop attacking the English who've come into the city because they're just making a pilgrimage to a saint. They're not actually doing anything that's inappropriate at all. But actually, it's about controlling the popular popular anger and resentment rather than actually being an elite construct. But basically, the really, the real issue for trade is that sea is much quicker. And on the west coast, Scotland also continues to remain close to what is now Ireland because sea is much quicker. That's a sea-driven society. So that's a big reason for Scotland having a different identity medieval period, too.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  But there are very significant donations of Scottish troops and administrators to France in the Hundred Years' War. And this also helps to crystallize nationality. The disaster of the defeat of the Duke of Clarence at Bourget in fourteen eighteen at the hands of the Earl of Buckingham, supported by, supported by French troops with ten thousand Scots on the field, is a crystallizing moment for Scottish reputation, history and France. When Joan of Arc comes to liberate Orleans and what's the turning point of the war in fourteen thirty? You know, it's allegedly the march of what is now known as the March of the Soldiers of Robert Bruce.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  The traditional tune Hey Tutti Tati is played at the final storm where she's accompanied by the Scots Guard. And indeed, in the first attempts to relieve Orleans, there's a monument in the city today to Patrick Ogilvy, who commanded those attempts. And also Joan of Arc was received by a Scots, a bishop from Fife, who was the bishop of Orleans, when she entered the cit, when she entered the city in fourteen twenty nine. And to this day, the March of the Soldiers of Robert Bruce is one of the most significant French military marches and is paid in state funerals in France by on the pipes. So absolutely, there is a real and probably still under-researched and underdeveloped

• 50:04Speaker 02

  crystallization there where significant numbers of the Scottish elites are engaged in France and to some extent, a more limited extent, vice versa.

• 50:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:16Matt Lewis?

  I mean, I say we've done an incredible job. You've done an incredible job, Murray, of getting us through almost 1,000 years of Scottish history in under an hour. So just to conclude, just to sum up, when we get to the end of the medieval period, what kind of situation would you say Scotland is in internally? Is it now a confident, strong kingdom that is free from threats of being overtaken by England? Has it stepped firmly out of England's shadow now?

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Well, I think that was always its aim. And from the granting of the imperial crown, the closed crown in 1329, which was the ambition of medieval Scots kings, certainly the Stuarts did very well in presenting Scotland as a powerful and independent European kingdom with increasing status. But once again, they showed enormous levels of overconfidence, both in the historic defeat of James IV at Fronde in 1513, and even in terms of the development of James's navy, because the Prince Michael, one of the largest ships of its day in Europe, was in fact the ship that was answered by Henry VIII with the

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Honne Grasse Dieu some years later. So they were in an arms race. But really, this was an arms race. They couldn't win. And that was once again what we might call a sign of Scottish overambition, which you can see in the gift of the Duke of Burgundy, of Mons, still the extant of Mons Meg in Edinburgh Castle to James II, one of the largest bombards of its day, huge piece of artillery, banging Mons Meg's belly fu was the statement made as late as 18th century Scotland for having sex inside Mons Meg, which you could just

• 52:10Speaker 02

  about do, especially if you were small and not particularly active. But it's got a huge calibre of gun, and it represented the kind of ambition of the late Stuart kings to compete. Once again, they couldn't do it.

• 52:27Matt Lewis?

  I find myself liking this overambition, though. I've enjoyed all of the stories of them believing they can do these things, even if it turns out that most of the time they can't.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  I think that the interesting thing is, and I don't want to take us outside the period, is that actually that it's in the 18th and 19th centuries that they find that they can. And in a way, Scotland is probably, in the contemporary era, as less ambitious than it's ever been.

• 52:54Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, well, there's a challenge, there's a rallying cry.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  Or an observation, something's really changed because you can see in the braggadocio and invention and the sheer will to dominate in 18th to 19th century Scots, the platform by the British Empire, they can do this, which they've never been able to do before, and they always wanted to.

• 53:13Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, well, this has been absolutely fascinating, Murray, so thank you so much for taking us through a fascinating millennium of Scottish history in under an hour, you've delivered as promised, and I found it all absolutely fascinating, so thank you very, very much for joining us.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  It's been a pleasure, Matt, thanks for letting me ramble on.

• 53:31Matt Lewis?

  Not at all, thank you.

• 53:34Matt Lewis?

  Murray's book, The Shortest History of Scotland, is out now, if you'd like to discover even more about this nation's history. You can find episodes in our back catalogue on the Viking siege of Dunbarth and the declaration of our broth that Murray mentioned as we were talking. There are new instalments of Gone Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please come back to join Eleanor and I for more from the greatest millennium in human history. Don't forget to also subscribe or follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, and tell all of your friends and family that you've gone medieval. You can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week at historyhit.com/subscribe. Anyway, I'd better let you go.

• 54:18Matt Lewis?

  I've been Matt Lewis and we've just gone medieval with History Hit.