Christine de Pizan: Pioneering French Feminist

How did a widowed mother transform loss, politics and misogyny into one of the most accomplished literary careers in medieval history? From the Parisian court to contemporaneously telling the story of Joan of Arc, Christine de Pizan was Europe’s first professional woman writer and publisher. Matt Lewis is joined by Katherine Pangonis to explore her extraordinary life and uncover the story of one of history's most formidable writers. MORE Trial of Joan of Arc Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/trial-of-joan-of-arc/id1564113746?i=1000737610970&uo=4&itscg=30200&ls=1&mttnsubad=6442463604&at=1000l3ctA&itsct=podfollow_podcasts&ct=gone-medieval-eplink Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/4m57CME9e4TBKBvWXmsdAs Julian of Norwich Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/julian-of-norwich/id1564113746?i=1000614545675&itscg=30200&ls=1&mttnsubad=6442463604&at=1000l3ctA&itsct=podfollow_podcasts&ct=gone-medieval-eplink Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/4D4iJhcQJzzANiIoyOI7Qr Gone Medieval is presented by Matt Lewis. Audio editor is Amy Haddow, the producer is Rob Weinberg. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds. Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Matt Lewis?

  From long-lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places, to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Yarnagger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life, only on History Hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:42Speaker 01

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• 1:18Matt Lewis?

  Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. Welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We've got the most intriguing mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and latest groundbreaking research, from the Vikings to the printing press, from kings to popes to the crusades. We cross centuries and continents to delve into rebellions, plots, and murders to find the stories, big and small, that tell us how we got here. Find out who we really were with Gone Medieval.

• 1:55Matt Lewis?

  I want you to picture a young widow in medieval Paris, three children in her care, debts piling up, a courtroom battle over her late husband's estate dragging on for years. No patron, no power, no plan, except one radical decision. She will make a living with her mind and her pen. This woman is Christine de Pizan, and she's about to become Europe's first professional female writer. At a time when women were seen as weak, silent, and sinful, Christine picked up a pen and answered back. She wrote poetry for kings and queens. She debated scholars in public.

• 2:38Matt Lewis?

  She created allegorical cities where women ruled. She defended women's intelligence, morality, and dignity centuries before the word feminism even existed. And when France was collapsing into civil war, she wrote one of history's first political biographies of a living woman, celebrating Joan of Arc as a national hero.

• 3:01Matt Lewis?

  Christine de Pizan's life itself reads like a drama. Born in Venice, raised in the glittering courts of France, married young, widowed suddenly. Forced into lawsuits and poverty, she reinvented herself in a profession that wasn't supposed to exist for women. She battled misogynistic literature in what historians call one of Europe's first literary debates. She out-earned male writers. She built networks of patrons. She shaped royal propaganda and wrote more than 40 books. And then, after decades of speaking fearlessly, she fell silent, disappearing into a convent as France burned around her. So why should we care about Christine de Pizan?

• 3:45Matt Lewis?

  Because she asked questions we're still asking today. Who gets to write history? Who decides what women are allowed to be? Can words change a culture that doesn't want to listen? She refused to let the story of women be written by men who despised them. She showed that intellectual independence, especially for women, is not a given. It's to be fought for. My guest today is the wonderful Catherine Pangone, a historian who is rewriting the voices of women into the historical narrative. A new book, A History of France in Twenty-One Women traces the lives of the women who made French history, from Eleanor of Aquitaine to Coco Chanel. Together, we're going to focus on just one of them today,

• 4:29Matt Lewis?

  Christine de Pizan, who built a city out of words, argued with medieval trolls, advised kings, praised a teenage warrior saint, and quietly invented a new way for women to live.

• 4:45Matt Lewis?

  Welcome to Gone Medieval Catherine, it's great to have you with us.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me back on the show.

• 4:49Matt Lewis?

  It's always a pleasure to welcome you back. And I'm really excited to learn a little bit more about Christine de Pizan. She's such a fascinating character. I don't know whether many people will necessarily have heard of her, but I think they're going to really enjoy learning more about her fascinating life. So I wanted to start us off at the beginning, seems like a really good place to start. Christine, if people do know Christine de Pizan, they associate her mostly with France, but what do we know about her family? Because she's not born in France, is she?

• 5:13Speaker 02

  So yeah, her birth name is actually Christina, and she's born to a scholar, a doctor called Tommaso de Pizano in Venice in 1364, and his wife, who I, to my knowledge, we don't actually have a record of her name, which is disappointing but unsurprising for the times. But yes, when she's very young, her father is offered a place at the court of Charles V of France, who will later be known as Charles the Wise. He's the founder of the Bibliothèque Nationale, as we have it today. And he really wanted to transform the Court of France into an intellectual centre in Europe. And with that in mind, he tried to invite the leading luminaries of the time to the Court of France. So this is during the rise of humanism, the birth of the Renaissance. And so her father, Tommaso,

• 5:57Speaker 02

  is brought to Paris. And after a trial year at the court in Paris, he brings his wife and children along with him. And that's two sons and Christina. And we're not sure exactly what point, but they frankify their names. And so Christina de Pizano becomes Christine de Pizan, and becomes thoroughly frankified. And her life and career then unfolds in the Court of France, in the Valois Court.

• 6:21Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, fascinating. And I guess there must have been something about Venice then. Is there a reason that Charles is looking at Venice? Venice is presumably quite a cosmopolitan place at the time. Is Charles trying to tap into what's going on in Venice and drag that up to France?

• 6:34Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. So Italy, I mean, I think when we think of the Renaissance, the first country we think of is Italy. And this is the same for the ideas that underpinned the Renaissance. So humanism is really taking hold in Italy at this point. It really is at the forefront of intellectual thought. And that's probably why the King of France is looking to create a sort of, not necessarily a rival, but certainly a complementary intellectual centre in Europe and in Paris. He's looking to the cities of Italy for intellectuals.

• 7:03Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And at the same time, he's asked to go to France. I think he also gets an approach from Hungary as well. Do we know why he chose France? What were the benefits of going to France rather than Hungary?

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. So Tommaso is in demand. He's built quite a reputation for himself as an academic, as a medical doctor, as a reader of astrology. So he is sought after as an advisor, as an intellectual within the different courts of Europe. And he does receive this offer from the King of Hungary. But it's the glittering reputation of Paris and indeed the prestige of the University of Paris that I think make him think this could be the right place to advance his career. And also the fact that Charles V really has this reputation as a monarch who really cares about philosophy, about ideas. I think that's very attractive to someone when deciding whose patronage to accept.

• 7:56Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And how much of a contrast would Paris have been to Venice at this time? You know, Tommaso goes there, as you mentioned, for a year and then Christine follows on afterwards. But I have an image of Paris, at least up until this time, as this kind of, you know, a gray drab, slightly boring, very serious place. And you think about people like, you know, a couple of centuries earlier, Eleanor of Aquitaine going from Aquitaine and the flourishing culture down there to the slightly more dull Paris. Is Paris like a, is it a buzzing place? Is Charles trying to change Paris? Is it a dull place when Christine gets there?

• 8:32Speaker 02

  It's beginning to buzz, I would say. I think it's definitely picked up in energy and certainly cultural energy since Eleanor of Aquitaine went there and was disappointed with it. At this time, it has a population of about 150,000 people, but it is in this sort of dark period after various crises. So we are in the midst of the Hundred Years' War. I mean, this is the backdrop to Christine's life. The war lasts more than 100 years, more like 110, 120. And so there isn't a single point in Christine's life where this conflict isn't playing out. There are periods of peace, periods of war, like the more intensive war, and periods of comparative peace. And there are periods where the English are

• 9:14Speaker 02

  visiting Paris. So there's flux, there's ups and downs in the levels of conflict. But the war is always there generally as an overarching presence. And in addition to that, we're not that long after the Black Death, which has really decimated Europe's population. So I wouldn't say Paris is yet a jewel in Europe. I wouldn't say it's the most exciting city, but it's on its way to becoming so. And yeah, it's reeling from recent conflicts, recent tragedies, but it's working hard to rebuild its reputation. It is attracting people from across Europe and across the world. So it's beginning to become the city that we think of it as today.

• 9:53Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, people like Tommaso must have seen the potential there, mustn't they, to have made that decision to uproot their family and move there. They must have felt like there was a change happening that they could tap into and build on.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Exactly. And a sense of investment in culture and ideas, a sense of that there is a king in this country willing to invest in exactly what Tommaso excels in. So I think that's what draws them there. And the fact that they're building this Royal Library that still survives in a form today, of course, I mean, following the revolution and other steps, the library has now become a public institution. It's no longer the Royal Library. But they are beginning this massive collection of manuscripts. They are investing in new literary works, as we will see in our discussion. So it is this sense that this is a place where perhaps you can make it as a creative and as an intellectual.

• 10:46Matt Lewis?

  And Christine seems to have spent an awful lot of time around that library, the Louvre, around that environment. And her father doesn't seem to have particularly prevented her from accessing that kind of environment. There was no sense that you're a girl and your place is over there. Her father seems to have been willing to let her get involved in all of that?

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think this is one of the most striking men I encounter in the book that I've written, which the book I've written is a history of France and 21 women. So I'm looking at women over the centuries in France. And actually, although Christine is one of the earlier women, you know, she's in the 14th century, and so she's very much in the medieval period. Her father is perhaps one of the most interesting men we encounter in terms of pushing forward women's rights and helping to advance his daughter's career and education. Because, yes, he clearly educates her. He takes the time to educate her. And Christine is not only literate, but she's a gifted writer, as will emerge later. She does write autobiographically in her works. I mean, she doesn't write

• 11:49Speaker 02

  a specific autobiography, but she references her life and her childhood and her experiences repeatedly in her written work. And she does reference her father, and she talks about how he educated her and how he was one of the most leading scholars in Europe, and how she felt lucky to be gathering crumbs from the table of his career and his ideas. So she really is exposed young. She is given access to this library. I'm not sure exactly how that works. I can't imagine, I don't think many young women were given this level of access. But for some reason, Christine is, perhaps the Valois court regarded her as an eccentricity or a foible of one of their most brilliant thinkers. But she is given access, and she grows up with access to these libraries and these texts, perhaps

• 12:32Speaker 02

  being brought by her father, being shown this sort of thing. So she has a really rare access to education for a woman in the 14th century.

• 12:42Matt Lewis?

  I wonder if the French courts are thinking, oh, it must be a weird Italian thing, we'll just let them get on with it.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Something like that, maybe. I mean, even today, academics do weird things, don't they? And you don't really, you just think it's better to let it go.

• 12:56Matt Lewis?

  And it's interesting that you mentioned later on Christine will write about her childhood and will reflect that this is a thing that had a huge impact on her. She doesn't hide behind the fact that she was helped on her way by these things. She doesn't, you know, try to to claim that she's emerged, exploded onto the scene from nowhere. She is very clear that she was kind of trained and educated by her father to end up where she did and that being around those those great minds that are beginning to congregate in Paris had a huge impact on her as a child.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  For sure, but I would also say, I mean, and this is where we, it's always difficult dealing with medieval material, because this is a point where fiction, nonfiction haven't really emerged as separate genres and literature and history again really haven't solidified into distinctly separate genres. I mean, to what extent they have still, I mean, it's up for debate, but then they really haven't. And it was definitely a literary convention for the author to be humble. So it is possible that Christine was more self motivated and than than we think, because it was very much a literary convention for the author to be like, ah, I am unworthy of the words I write, I owe a great debt to such and such, my work would not be possible without the, you know, without the patronage of X and Y.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  But I do think in this case, it is believable, because otherwise, it really, I think it really would have been impossible for her to have access to the education that she she had. But at the same time, it's important to remember that for all she had this rarefied education, she was still very much a medieval woman and that meant an arranged marriage in her mid teens. I mean, she was married off at 15, which still, I mean, think about very disruptive to education, like it's totally disruptive to education, but this, this was how things were. And although she had access to learning, she couldn't have a different path. There was no option really for her to remain single. I mean, unless she chose a convent, which we'll see she really isn't interested in in the most part of her life.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  So yeah, she was, she was still married off at 15 to a suitable man, but she was lucky in some ways, because the man she was married to, it's likely they actually knew each other before they were married and he wasn't that much older than her. He was probably ten years older. So, I mean, that still is a bit shocking by today's standards. You think of someone twenty five marrying someone fifteen. But it's really not the worst we see in the Middle Ages. She's not marrying someone in their forties, or, you know, she's still marrying a young man, and they really seem to have a love match and a love connection. So that is, it's a successful marriage. Except for the fact that she is unfortunately widowed ten years later with three children. But that opens the doors to other avenues for her and maybe had her husband survived. Although it seems he also encouraged her love of writing and reading.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  It's perhaps less likely had he survived that she would have gone on to have the literary career that she had because it was necessity that forced her hand.

• 15:45Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah. And there's sort of a, a series of, of deaths really that then begin to change and form Christine's life. And, and the first one of those is Charles the Fifth, you know, the king who is, has fostered this environment in Paris and has brought her father over. He dies in thirteen eighty, is succeeded by Charles the Sixth. He turns out to be a very different king. I mean, does that have an impact on Christine's father and on her role in Paris and on her view of Paris?

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Charles the Fifth is really the one who's, who's investing in cultural life and intellectual life in Paris. And he has a vision. That's why he's Charles the Sage, Charles the Wise in history. But his son who inherits just doesn't have the same interests. Firstly, he is preoccupied with the Hundred Years' War, which is intensifying. This is fairness to him. This is true. He's got his mind on other things. But he's just not interested in the intellectual life in the same way. And we see this with the Bibliothèque Nationale, all the the manuscripts and the careful collecting of her father, he just completely neglects it. Um, and things begin to go missing. We actually see a disintegration of this library that he's put together. And then he's also, in addition to the other pressures on him.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  This, we need to remember that the successor of Charles the Wise is Charles the Mad. Charles Le Fou, Charles the Mad of France, who is famously very mentally unstable. We don't know exactly what mental illness, what diagnosis he might have had. But, you know, some of the more. Surprising symptoms of this are at points he genuinely believes he's going to be made of glass and could shatter at any moment. So he has special padding sewn into his clothes and rods, like steel rods fitted, or maybe iron, given the time, I'm not sure about my history of metals, but metal rods sewn into his clothing to add extra protection, prevent him from breaking. So he just isn't the same thinker, the same intellectual that his father was, and he doesn't invest in the intellectual life of the court anymore,

• 17:38Speaker 02

  which means her father's income plummets because he no longer has the same level of royal patronage. And it also means that Christine's position is far more precarious.

• 17:48Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And kind of, you know, within a decade of Charles dying, we see both Tommaso dying, first of all, and then we see her husband Etienne also dying. What impacts do those deaths have on Christine? Because that's the two men on whom she has become reliant. This leaves her very much alone in the world. What impact does that change in her life have on her?

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Um, hugely. I mean, she has three children when Etienne dies. And it's actually possible that Etienne's, I mean, that it was the transition from Charles the Wise to Charles the Foo that made her have to make a marriage because she, as I say, her father's financial situation decreased rapidly. But she's suddenly left a widow without her husband providing for her, three children, and her father does die as well, very shortly afterwards. So all of a sudden, she has no male protector at the Valois court, and her brothers have by this point returned to Italy. So she's left in France with an aging mother who's dependent on her as well, and three children to feed. And she doesn't want to marry again quickly. This is usually what would happen at this stage, a woman with children. And Nunnery isn't really open to her anymore as an option. She has three children that

• 18:57Speaker 02

  she has to care for. And she doesn't want to rush into a new marriage because she was lucky in her first marriage, I think, even though she was very young. And there's no guarantee that she'll have that experience again because marriage in the Middle Ages is a pretty short end of the stick for women. I mean, it's, I mean, it's really a lucky debt in terms of whether you get a good husband or a bad one. And you have no legal rights within marriage. The idea of rape between a married couple, I mean, that wasn't even made illegal until the 20th century in Europe. It was certainly, there was no such thing as marital rape in the Middle Ages. And on top of that, women really did become sort of property of their husbands to a large degree. And it was totally down to the discretion of the husband, whether or not he was a tyrant or a supporter of his wife.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  So she, even if she met someone nice, there was no, you know, marrying was going to be giving up a lot of her autonomy and putting her fate really in the hands of someone else. And that's not something she wants, especially with three children to look after. So this is what pushes her to writing, actually. She has to suddenly make a living for herself. And she is the first woman that we have on record who, who supports herself as a writer. So this launches her literary career. And she begins to write and to search for patrons and emerges as a, one of the great writers of the French court during this period.

• 20:13Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, and yeah, this is why people should know Christine, isn't it? This is a woman who, who takes all of those problems and turns them into a positive, takes all of those gifts that she's been given and creates a career for herself as the first female making a living from her pen. And she does it in really striking ways as well, which I want to get on to in a little bit. But I wonder if you could just talk to us a little bit about how, how does a woman in Paris in the 14th century go about getting into the writing and publishing industry? Nobody else is doing it. How does she make this happen?

• 20:45Speaker 02

  It is a little bit of a mystery, I have to say, but I think the point is, is that she has connections to the, the copyists, to the bookmakers. She has connections to the intellectuals at the court. So this is her start. And she won't be accepted as a writer straight away. So she starts her career as a copyist, so copying other manuscripts. And I think that there is evidence of women working in these roles already, because, you know, throughout Europe, we do have nuns in convents copying and writing manuscripts. This is not, this is not unheard of, women having these roles, but it's usually within religious orders. So. That barrier is also, is already a little bit porous. There are ways through for women into this world. And we also have evidence, I mean, later in her work, Christine will write about

• 21:30Speaker 02

  collaborating with other female bookmakers, men, people who contribute to the book manufacturing process, such as the illuminator, the artist, a woman we know as Anastasia. So we know that women are working in these workshops. And I think she just offers her services. I think she calls up her contacts, not on the phone, but by letter and by dropping in, of course. And she says, look, I'm in this position. I have, I've got a talent. I can, I'm willing to work. Give me a shot. And I think, I think they begin to first with copying, and then little by little, her confidence builds, and she begins to slip in original works, which gradually, you know, take, attract some praise and attract notice. And then she can begin to attract her own patrons. But it starts, she starts softly,

• 22:13Speaker 02

  softly, as a copyist before aspiring to writing original works.

• 22:19Matt Lewis?

  And I think, again, that's a really interesting approach, isn't it? Because she's not expecting to go in at the top. She's accepting that she's going to have to, to start at the bottom, put in the, the hard graft to learn the trade. And she's learning the, the writing trade, the copying trade, the publishing trade. She's learning how all of those things work, which are all things that are going to benefit her later. So it's striking that she's willing to do that. She doesn't, you know, aim to go in straight at the top as, as a bestselling author in Paris. But also that the environment exists in which she is allowed to do that. You know, men aren't laughing her out of the, the room when she's wanting to do these things.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  We don't know, like, but that's the thing. We don't know if they are laughing her out of there. I mean, what I would say is that it's a small world, um, bookmaking, manuscript making in Paris. It's a small world. It's a small community. And she would have gone in with a certain level of respect as the daughter of Tomaso de Pizan, um, and being a court lady. Being a court lady will make all the difference, and she will be connected. So I think that's, that she has her foot in the door, in that sense. And then I think her work is to speak to herself. But truthfully, we don't know how many people she approached for this work, and how many times she was turned down before she was given the opportunity. But I think, given her high status, and The fact that I think she really was talented, like she wouldn't have been given these positions

• 23:35Speaker 02

  if she, if it didn't make financial sense for the, for the, for those commissioning her. So I think she went in with connections, the right level of polish and real talent and persuaded people to, to give her this chance. And somehow she, she made it her own. And what's really remarkable is that she managed to retain sort of court status while sort of doing semi menial work as a copyist. But she did, she managed to balance the two.

• 24:00Matt Lewis?

  And, and I wonder, you know, she seems to me, and I don't know if you think this is fair, but she seems quite good at playing the game of, of patronage of, and presumably that's her court connection. She understands how that machinery works and how you have to get access to the right people who are willing to give you money for an enterprise like this to, to actually get off the ground. So, so is she pulling on all of those things that she learned? Is she good at playing that game of, of getting patronage which, which launches her business?

• 24:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think she's quite smart in that she, her main, her main patrons at the beginning are, are women. So, and I think that's the card she can play. I think she wouldn't initially have attracted patronage from great male patrons. So she, she writes for Queen Isabelle, the wife of Charles VI, and then also for Queen Blanche of Castile, who become her main patrons. And she dedicates a lot of her work to them. And I think it's meaningful for them to have works dedicated to them by a female writer. And as we'll see when we get into a bigger discussion of her work, I mean, she, she writes a lot in defence of women. I mean, the female sex is often admonished in literature of the time. I mean, and this is, this is biblical precedent. I mean, the virgin whore dichotomy is, is, is biblical.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  And we, we see this in many of the works emerging during the medieval period, even original works that seem a little bit secular in tone. They've got like deep, they're, they're deeply rooted in religion and religious stereotypes of women. And also some of them are highly critical and which is insulting to the queen as well. I mean, even though the queen is very much a part of this system and is very much, okay, she's in a top position, but it's still a system of oppression. So I think. The fact that she she wrote books that defended the female sex and dedicated them to queens was a smart move and secured patronage for her. But she did have, in the later, she did have important male patrons as well, but she, her first, her first serious patrons were Queen Isabelle and Blanche Castille.

• 25:57Matt Lewis?

  And the other thing that she seems to do, which feels like a really smart business decision, again, a little bit of a no brainer maybe, is that she writes predominantly in French rather than Latin, and presumably that, again, is a business move to open up her audience.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. I mean, I think it's, again, it's controversial, but it's happening in Italy as well. So we, you know, with the Renaissance and with humism, we have a sort of a marked switch to writing in the vernacular. So we have this with Italian poets, and then I think Christine is following in their footsteps and is saying that she wants to write things which have a wider appeal. And also I think it is a way of stepping a little bit away from religious tradition as well to write in the vernacular rather than, rather than Latin.

• 26:40Matt Lewis?

  And one of her first kind of big moves, I guess, is to publish something that is in opposition to Le Rôme de la Rose. So one of the big blockbuster hits of the time, everybody loves this romance, it's, it's really widespread. And Christine kind of writes this big objection to it. So I wonder if, to start off with, can you tell us a little bit about what Le Rôme de la Rose is, why it's so important? And then also, why does Christine target it? Why does she object to it?

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. So Le Rôme de la Rose was one of the best known and widely circulated texts in 14th century France. And it's a poem begun by someone called Guillaume Deloris and extensively expanded by a guy called Jean de Mont. And it's an allegorical dream vision, but it presents women in a really, really misogynistic light. And chiefly, as I've mentioned, as seductresses and schemers. And it had a huge reach. So there were over a hundred copies in circulation, which doesn't sound like a lot now. But in the time before, like, large scale printing, when manuscripts were made by hand, this is huge, this is a huge circulation. And so the sort of slander of women is sort of the most talked about manuscript of the time. And Christine takes it upon herself to sort of set the record. Called Straight and in fourteen oh two, she writes Le Dieu de la Rose, The Tale of the Rose,

• 27:54Speaker 02

  which is this sort of acid tongued rebuttal to what's been said about women in in the Roman de la Rose. And and this is the and Simone de Beauvoir writes that this is the first time a woman takes up a pen to defend like her gender, to defend womankind. And then in response to Christine's work, Le Dieu de la Rose, we have another member of the French court, a court secretary called Jean de Montreuil, publishing something, a praise of the Roman de la Rose, of Le Roman de la Rose. And then subsequently, Jean de Montreuil and Christine de Pizan become locked in this sort of heated literary intellectual debate about essentially the role of women and the quality of the original Roman de la Rose.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  And this results in Christine publishing La Quarelle de Roman de la Rose, which is The Quarrel of the Romance of the Rose. And this is this bold, open dispute with a male scholar, which is really sort of unheard of at this time, the idea of a woman entering into an intellectual debate with a male scholar of the court and doing so in a very public way because she publishes it and everyone can read it. More than this, given that she had a readership sort of large enough to ensure the circulation of this text, it demonstrates that people actually wanted to know what she thought and that her opinion mattered. And that's sort of, that really is, that's that's trailblazing for sort of writing an intellectual life at the time.

• 29:36Speaker 03

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• 29:45Speaker 04

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• 30:06Speaker 05

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• 30:58Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, and again, just such a striking moment that is easy to gloss over. This idea that you've got this woman who is entering the world of publishing and writing, who is trying to make a living from her own pen, which no one has done before, but is also picking very public fights with male intellectuals, and perhaps to the surprise of some men at the time, holding her own. But that she is able and willing to do this is also pioneering at the time. It's easy for us to, I guess it's just easy for us to think this had always happened, or that it suddenly happened out of nowhere, but you have to have that first person who does it. And Christine is that first woman who takes that step to say, hang on, you can't just

• 31:39Matt Lewis?

  keep writing this misogynistic nonsense about women all of the time, because it's not true, and here is a rebuttal. And she doesn't shy away then when they come back at her. She's willing to stand her ground and fight for what she believes in. It's just such a striking moment that is easy to gloss over.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  No, she's really a remarkable person, and it's hard to imagine how she was actually able to do this, and the framework that allowed her to. I think it was having the patronage of the Queen. The Queen clearly liked her, and Queen Isabelle had power, because for obvious reasons, given the challenges of her husband, et cetera. And she had influence. And I think also, it was a sense of being in the right place at the right time, but also being... Fiercely intelligent and unafraid. I mean, and it was also that she really, she was a single woman, which was unusual, which perhaps gave her more leeway. Because as a widow, she had far more rights than she would have ever had as a wife or as a daughter. So she was sort of in control of her own destiny at this time.

• 32:41Speaker 02

  And I think she sort of, she probably leaned into the idea, a proto idea, that, you know, all press is good press. And what she really wanted was to get her name out there and attract patronage. And this really did that. You know, this preceded her big commissions from, by the Queen. So she does capitalize on the moment. And the sense that actually, at this point, people, for whatever reason, are ready to listen to her, and she doesn't shy away from it.

• 33:05Matt Lewis?

  And perhaps Christine's most famous piece of work is The Book of the City of Ladies. So I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about when that arrives and kind of, what is the book?

• 33:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this is one of her most important books. And I think if you, if you go into a bookstore in England, and if they have one, one book to do with Christine de Pizan, it will probably be the, the Book of the City of Ladies. It's an allegorical text in which she creates this metaphorical city filled with women. And she's guided through it by three female figures, Lady Reason, Lady Rectitude, and Lady Justice. And Christine places herself at the centre of the narrative, studying the writings of the 13th century cleric Matholus, who blamed women for men's unhappiness. And as she's sort of wrestling with this text and getting more and more hot under the collar, reading about all this rubbish written about women, Reason, Rectitude, and

• 34:00Speaker 02

  Justice all appear to her. And they instruct her to challenge misogyny, correct these awful narratives around women, and build this symbolic city where virtuous women can live, underpinned by wisdom. And the work sort of takes us on a tour of the great women of mythology and history. So Christine, travelling through this world, guided by these three female figures, she meets Sappho, she meets Dido, Queen of Carthage, she meets St Catherine of Alexandria, these famous, brilliant women of history. She also meets Lucretia, she meets the Amazons, she meets Queen Blanche of Castile.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  And she gives these women voices arguing for their intellectual and moral equality with men, while also advocating for women's education and celebrating the contributions these women have made to society and history and the world that she inhabits. So through this work, Christine offers glimpses into the lives of mythological and historical women and biblical women. And for me, it's very interesting to see how these historic and mythological figures are perceived in the Middle Ages. So she gives us, it's a great work of storytelling, because all of the women she chooses have great stories associated with them. But it also shows us how these stories are being told in the Middle Ages, and which women are seen as heroines and which aren't. You know, notably, we don't really have Medea

• 35:19Speaker 02

  sort of thing being held up as a heroine, because that's not the case even then. So it's interesting to see who is palatable to medieval readers. And she also, in addition to this storytelling, she sort of gives this great example of defending the female sex, and of defending the reputations and celebrating the achievements of women.

• 35:40Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And the book sort of details the physical building of the city. And to what extent is Christine in this taking on the role of a man and saying, you know, there's nothing that a man can do that a woman can't? Because you would traditionally, again, you would associate that idea of being an architect and a builder with being solely male professionals. But she puts herself at the centre of the book as the woman who is designing and building this city.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, who's sort of raising it up with her mind. And I think that's the whole thing. I think this is both, I mean, it really is deeply allegorical, deeply metaphorical, because she's doing that just in the act of doing the writing, isn't she? So she's this, it's this sense that, it's a sense both in the physical acts of writing and in the meat, in the substance of the text, she's putting herself in a traditionally male role. And she's putting herself being guided by women. And as presenting herself as the narrator and the viewpoint of which we're going through the city, again, she's taking on a traditionally male role. So she's inverting expectations on every level, and really keeping women centre stage in every aspect of this document.

• 36:45Matt Lewis?

  And the book is very clearly A challenge to men, to the misogyny of the world in which she lives, and demonstrates that women can build a world and exist in that world. So there is a challenge to the men around her. Is there an extent to which the book is also a challenge to women to say, look, we have all of these precedents. We have all of these incredible women around. We could build something, but if I build the city, I need women to come to it.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  I think yes and no. I mean, I think the truth is that very few women are literate at this time in the same way that Christine is. So I don't think she's thinking of sort of mass reach to sort of women across, across the country in that sense. But I think, yes, to her female readership, which certainly does exist, namely in the forms of the queens and ladies of the court. This is kind of a rallying cry of look what women can do. Like, don't be afraid to sort of step into your power and hold your ground. I think she is definitely saying this and she's, you know, she's very much described. She is, she is, she's a proto feminist because she's really arguing for male, female equality. But at the same time, she's still bringing some sort of, you know, sort of quasi misogynistic values to, to her work.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  Because she's quite, she's very critical of fallen women still, sort of thing. She's, so she doesn't sort of make excuses for, for women sort of who are at the bottom of the social hierarchy, women who engage in sex work, that sort of thing. So it's not like a completely feminist text in a modern way, but for the time it's highly progressive. And yes, I think it is, it is designed to showcase the talents and abilities of women and to call on women to not be, let themselves be passed over and to sort of stand strong and reject these criticisms and these stereotypes about their gender.

• 38:25Matt Lewis?

  What kind of contemporary impact does this have? So we've seen her work around the Romandola Rose, you know, causing a stir and causing people to, to counter her argument and engage with her intellectually. Do we know what impact the City of Ladies has as well?

• 38:39Speaker 02

  Not in the same way as the Corlele de Laurent Mondelore, not in the same way as her work on around this big debate. It doesn't provoke a huge intellectual debate in the same way. I think its impact is more in cementing her as a key figure of the literary establishment and as a trailblazing writer, because these books are popular, there are multiple copies of them, which is significant. So there are some in France, there are some in England. And I think the fact it cements her status and reputation as a scholar and as a writer more than ruffling feathers. And I think the works sort of stand alone. They're not directly criticizing another scholar, so it doesn't invite heat in the same way. And I think they're so well crafted,

• 39:22Speaker 02

  so beautifully written, and so perfectly in line with the sort of literary convention of the time. And she really nails it, I'd say. And of course, they're dedicated to the Queen. So I think with that comes a layer of legitimacy. And also, yeah, their main impact is in demonstrating that Christine de Pizan is a serious, serious scholar and a serious writer. And the work is really celebrated and copied, crucially.

• 39:50Matt Lewis?

  And she goes on to build on that with another book, which is often referred to as The Book of the Three Virtues. And that feels like it's a little bit more along the lines of practical advice for women about how to implement the kind of the ideas, the changes that Christine is championing. Is that fair?

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's more where The City of Ladies is sort of more philosophical in character. This book, which is this manuscript, which is produced at roughly the same time, and it's a hyper busy year for Christine, actually, they both come out, they're both completed in 1405. This sort of companion work is more practical and instructional in tone, rather than designed to be something really contemplated. In it, Christine addresses the community of women with this stated objective of instructing them on the means of achieving virtue and sort of taking the position that women are capable of taking and of embodying the emotions, the emotions and the qualities that women are so clearly able of embodying. So humility, diligence, moral rectitude, and also championing female

• 40:49Speaker 02

  education and sort of encouraging women to become worthy residents of The City of Ladies. The manuscripts are really intended to go hand in hand. One sort of as the sort of aspirational vision piece, and the other is sort of the guide to how to get there. Yeah. So, and it's dedicated to Princess Margaret Burgundy, which is again a strategic choice and linking her to one of the most noble families in France and sort of ensuring the prestige and the future circulation of the manuscript. And it's got a striking legacy because it became an important reference point for women in the 15th and 16th centuries. So it's still been consulted long after her death. And that's probably because of the appeal of the instructional tone.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  I mean, there are a lot of allegorical dream vision type poems produced at the time in Latin, in Italian, in French and English. But this idea of sort of a handbook on how to be a great woman is quite appealing and it has this lasting, lasting value and legacy.

• 41:44Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, it's a kind of female version of the mirror for princes idea that this is how you go about being the best you can be in the world. And does Christine, does she extend her advice and her thoughts on politics to kind of trying to advise men as well? Does she restrict herself to talking to women or does she ever try to engage with men and tell them how they should do their jobs better as well?

• 42:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, she knows her audience. So I think, and it's an interesting, I mean, it's an interesting trajectory. I mean, I think women, and still today, actually, female authors can often sort of find their way in writing about women because even today in publishing, I think that women, I mean, it's certainly what I've done actually, women are more likely to get publishing contracts for writing about women because, okay, this is a subject that women are better placed to write about. So I think she sort of savagely assessed that at the time, but then also knew that most of her market, as it were, would be men because very few, fewer women are in a position to be patrons of the arts than men and fewer women are educated to read than men. So she does, she does expand to writing for both audiences. She begins to have male patrons as well.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  And so she does write several texts that are directed more to a male audience. And one, a great example of this is the Book of the Deeds of Arms and of Chivalry, which is sort of a comprehensive treatise on military strategy and the ethics of chivalry, which is, it gives us like, it's a great example of sort of the breadth of her knowledge and her work. But this text is really, that is really aimed at, at male readers in a male dominated court.

• 43:34Speaker 01

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• 44:08Speaker 05

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• 45:01Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, and again, really striking to find a woman offering military advice to men during an ongoing war with England at this time. It's something that you would imagine the medieval world would really, really struggle with, but there is Christine doing it.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think it's because she's established this reputation for herself as a brilliant writer and a thinker. And I think the work, I mean, these works have probably taken more as the point of view, they're written from a person of the court and a high-ranking intellectual of the court, and people are somehow willing to overlook the fact that she's a woman. But, you know, we don't know how many men seriously took her advice. But, but yes, she certainly, she was, she had a patron for this work, and it was produced and copied, so it certainly had some reach.

• 45:47Matt Lewis?

  And then kind of in the 1410s, in a moment which coincides with during the Hundred Years' War, the kind of English occupation of Paris and the fresh assaults coming from Henry V in England, Christine seems to kind of disappear from view. We don't see any more work from her for a while. Do we know what happens to her during this period?

• 46:04Speaker 02

  Yes and no. She does go quiet for a while, although she will create another great work, which we should definitely discuss shortly before the end of her life. But she's forced to flee Paris during the Burgundian siege. So although she's had Burgundian patrons, although this is the nature of the Hundred Years' War, peace can exist. And during peaceful periods in the war, Christine accepts the patronage of English aristocrats. Her son actually goes into the household of the Earl of Salisbury, who is one of her key patrons at one point during one of the periods of peace. And likewise, one of her important books is dedicated to a lady from the House of Burgundy. But yes, then, when in the 1410s, Paris is besieged by Burgundian forces, she has to flee. And it's at this point that

• 46:49Speaker 02

  she withdraws to a monastery, to a nunnery rather, and spends the rest of her life there, outside Paris, which has really become her home. But she still obviously has access to materials, because then, at the end of her life, she will pen the Ditty of Joan of Arc, which is, I think, my favourite of her manuscripts, my favourite of her works. Because, I mean, in the book that I wrote, Joan of Arc is the figure that I write about after Christine de Pizan. So it's this perfect bridge. And I think the fact that Christine writes about her, it emphasises the impacts of Joan of Arc on women and thinkers at the time, what this symbolic impact of this peasant girl who rose from complete obscurity to

• 47:32Speaker 02

  being at the right hand of the king is incredibly interesting. And also that Christine chooses to write about her is very interesting. She writes about her in a very moving way. And it also gives us a glimpse into Christine's fatigue with the Hundred Years' War that has been the consistent backdrop to her life, and how she sees Joan as maybe this figure who will deliver France. And then, well... And then for better or worse, Christine dies before Joan's downfall. So she's alive when Joan's career is very interesting. It's a, it's a sort of a tragic arc, you know, rising to these lofty peaks of, you know, helping to crown the Dauphin rounds and lifting the Siege of Orleans. And then she has a series of defeats and of failures, which sort of take the shine off her halo.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  And Christine sort of lives to see those, but she dies with hope because Joan is not yet captured. Joan has obviously not yet been executed. So the work composed by Christine about Joan of Arc. It's incredibly hopeful in tone. It's incredibly optimistic. And so it's sort of, it's, it's a shame because we know what happened next. But it's amazing to read it with that, that tone and those, those nuances.

• 48:40Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And it feels like such a moment for Christine when she blazes back out of obscurity and begins writing again. Because there is this moment where almost like the, the France that she's envisaged is being bought into being by Joan of Arc. You've suddenly got this woman who is, for all intents and purposes, leading the nation and showing them how it should be done. And it's almost like that's everything that Christine has been writing about for the previous 20 years or so is suddenly embodied in Joan of Arc. You can almost imagine her being, you know, roused from her, her chair in the nunnery and thinking, I've got to write again because this is exactly what I wanted to happen. And now it's coming true.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, that's, that's, you, you've said it way better than I did, Matt, but that's, that's a fantastic view of it because that's exactly, I mean, why has she stopped writing? I mean, she's probably depressed, like the, the world that her father came to Paris to see built has been unraveling for most of Christine's adult life. So it's sort of the promise of her childhood has sort of not been delivered upon because Charles the Fifth's work, making Paris this luminary centre, has been sort of dismantled and degraded by the reign of Charles, Charles the Mad. And yeah, and Christine spent her whole life writing about what women can do and what women can be. And here you have Joan embodying it and taking it a step further. I mean, she's a woman who is saintly.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  She literally becomes a saint, the patron saint of France, but also powerful and motivational. And she sort of shakes the dole fine to action, you know, she shakes Charles the Mad into becoming, into being crowned, into becoming the King of France and sort of she's unifying this country. So that's exactly it. And after these sort of dark years of having to flee Paris, it's a sense that they're on the road to recovery and that maybe the vision will come true after all. And you think about the city of ladies, well, Joan of Arc is the the greatest resident. And if Christine were writing a hundred years later, I think Joan would have been the queen of the city of ladies. And it's sort of exemplified in exactly this poem. She writes, "The sun began to shine again in fourteen twenty nine",

• 50:45Speaker 02

  because it is the sense of the light emerging after these sort of years of disappointment and darkness. And yeah, it's like that sense that she's suddenly galvanized to pick up her pen again. And it's almost like Joan has inspired her to return to her mission and to return to her vision. She creates this one last work, which she managed to complete before she dies around fourteen thirty. And then sadly Joan is burned two years later, but at least Christine wasn't there to see yet another miserable defeat and the destruction of this woman who carried all this hope.

• 51:20Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, that idea that the sun began to shine again in fourteen twenty nine feels like Christine is explicitly talking about for France and everything else. But maybe also personally for her, like you say, she's been in this kind of darkness for so long. And suddenly Joan of Arc has, I would say, turned on a light, but obviously not, you know, lit a lamp in her personal life.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, France is her country. I mean, it's, you know, I don't, I don't often relate history to present. And I've, I've got this sort of dual focus in my work between France and the Middle East. And I spent a lot of years living in Lebanon and, you know, the people, Lebanon's been in a state of war and being bombed. And, you know, for decades, the civil war and then various, you know, obviously periods of peace, but it's never really ended. And I think, you know, there is this great weariness. And at some point, people do begin, the weariness overtakes them. And you get this sense of Christine as well. And Christine is fighting on multiple fronts, you know, she's fighting for her place as a female writer. And for some Reason when she was writing Le Dîner de la Rose, people were listening to her.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  For some reason, when she was writing The Book of the City of Ladies, people were listening to her. But, you know, her life was complicated, securing patronage was complicated. She had Burgundian patronage, English patronage, French patronage. And all these forces are at war with each other. So balancing all of that is huge. Also asserting herself as a female and sexual writer is a constant struggle. And then, of course, you have the struggle of being in a country that is constantly at war and having to flee the city she built her family, her life and her career in, a retreat to a monastery, which is something she never wanted. So I think there is a real sense of the clouds are hanging low, not only, not only over France as a whole, but also over Christine personally. And Joan arrives as this, this figure of hope and so really inspires her to write again.

• 53:02Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. Is it stretching it too far? Because we're talking about Christine and how impressive she is and, and how, how much of a trailblazer that she is. Is it stretching it too far to think that she, to some extent, helped to set the scene for Joan? Because she's trying to change the way that people think about women and their role. And Joan comes along into a court full of men who must have been aware of Christine's work. And, and is it stretching it too far to think that maybe there's something going on in the background there where they're thinking, oh, you know, we've, we've got this idea that women might be able to do this kind of thing. Maybe we should give Joan a chance. So is it too much to say that Christine has perhaps laid a little bit of the groundwork or the foundation for Joan?

• 53:42Speaker 02

  I mean, that's not a stretch because that's quite, that's quite broad. That's quite low key as a statement. That's okay. I think that the idea, the idea that the men were reading and listening to Christine's work. I think we can't necessarily take that for granted, that, that, like I said, I think maybe, you know, Charles, Charles VI, I'm not sure how much time he had for these things, but his wife certainly did. And maybe his wife was talking to about this and showing him these texts. And he would certainly have looked at them, but whether or not it made a huge impact on what he thought women could do, I'm not sure. Because Joan went way further than Christine ever thought a woman would go in her writing, you know? Christine is never saying that, I mean, aside from like the, the

• 54:27Speaker 02

  With the Amazons and talking about female queenship. She's not tall. I mean, what Joan did was extraordinary. This is a teenage girl from the countryside who rides into battle, leading troops and gets wounded and sort of puts fat and sand on her wounds and gets up and keeps fighting. I mean, it's really remarkable and she's sort of inspired by heavenly vision. So I think Joan goes way further than Christine was even suggesting women should go in her work. And so I'm not, I'm not sure I would say that there's a direct impact between Christine's writing and the space coming for Joan, because I think Joan and her visions would have succeeded even without Christine's work in that sense. I think France needed a hero, a heroine even.

• 55:11Speaker 02

  There were these prophecies about a virgin coming to save France. And I think she came at a dark time and she spoke persuasively. I mean, you look at Joan's trial records, her, the way she speaks is persuasive. It's like she's a shockingly competent and compelling speaker. But yes, at the same time, we have had these books by women coming before Joan's thing. And I think it's sort of, it's sort of more soft power than direct influence. But yeah, I'm sure that I don't think it's a stretch to say that Christine slightly cleared the path a little, but I, I, I wouldn't overstate it because I think Joan's remarkable qualities would have spoken even without Christine's earlier works on women.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And also I think the thing is Christine's works, while they found an audience at the time, we can't overstate, you know, they did sort of fall out of fashion for a while. It's not like Christine doing this suddenly meant there were loads of female writers and loads of female leaders. It's not true. Christine remained unique for a long time. There weren't, it wasn't that Christine doing this broke down the barriers and loads more women started receiving education and writing. This didn't happen. So I think she had this sort of, she burned, her, her work of this had influenced an audience for this short while, but then I think that did retreat. And I think as we've talked about, there was this period where she was writing less, when she's in exile in the abbey. And I think her, her influence probably did diminish in that time. And that's, that's the 10 years before Joan burst onto the scene.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  But we shouldn't discount the impact that her, her, her work had had on the court in the decades before.

• 56:44Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, I'm just getting carried away with how cool Christine is there.

• 56:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 56:48Matt Lewis?

  And what would you say, does Christine de Pizan have a lasting legacy today? You know, what impact can we see her having in the world in the years and centuries after her death?

• 56:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, she's been really unearthed as this icon, as this iconic proto feminist, which is important. I mean, Simone de Beauvoir has written about her. Yeah, and she was included in the dinner party art installation by Judy Chicago, who made sort of 39 place settings at a triangular table for the great women of history. And Christine is at that table. So her, and as, and as an inspiration to female writers, she's huge because she, she was the first woman to make a living as a writer, which is inspirational to all of us trying to do something similar. And she did a very good job of it. So she does have an important lasting legacy, even though she was forgotten for a while. And, and crucially, I talk about this in my book because I was writing the book and the chapter on Christine as Paris was hosting the Summer Olympics.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  And there was this section in the opening ceremony called Sœurite, Sisterhood, where these golden statues of women were unveiled along the banks of the Seine. And one of them is Christine, who is unmistakable in her strange medieval two-pointed headdresses. So, so I think, you know, she's got, she really has a lasting legacy as an icon in sort of the journey of women's empowerment over time in, in Europe and beyond. Yeah, and she'll always be someone, a figure that I'm fascinated by. And I particularly love her because there are many pictures of her writing. So she, she, she led, she led by example in terms of building's career and writing about women. And she, she made sure she was portrayed doing it.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  So her works are very clearly attributed to her and filled with illustrations, not only of her writing, often with a little dog next to her, which I particularly like, but also giving instructions to her son and giving instructions to men. So she, both in her words and in the visual representations of her, she presents herself as a powerful figure. And that that has impacts and that that has had legacy for sure.

• 58:44Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, wonderful. I mean, everyone should go away and read your book, A History of France in 21 Women, but maybe go away and read Christine de Pizan after that as well.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. And I think the time is right for a biography, a very good biography of Christine de Pizan. And watch This Space because it's very much on my, on my radar.

• 59:02Matt Lewis?

  Oh, exciting. I'll look forward to that. Well, thank you so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you again and to, to get to know Christine de Pizan a little bit better.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, Matt. It's been a pleasure.

• 59:15Matt Lewis?

  Well, I hope you enjoyed this episode. I know I did. Christine is such a fascinating woman. There are episodes in our back catalogue all about Joan of Arc II, if you'd like to revisit any of those and find out the story of the maid of Aurion in more detail. There are new instalments of Gone Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please come back to join Eleanor and I for more from the greatest millennium in human history. Don't forget to also subscribe or follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all of your friends and family that you've Gone Medieval. You can sign up to History Hit to access hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free. Head to historyhit.com/subscribe. Go on,

• 1:00:00Matt Lewis?

  you know you want it. Anyway, I'd better let you go. I've been Matt Lewis and we've just Gone Medieval with History Hit.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasiapro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.