Medieval Europe's Most Evil Monarch

Who was the worst Medieval monarch? Dr. Eleanor Janega teams up with the hosts of our sister podcast After Dark to delve into the lives of some of Europe's most notorious medieval monarchs..and rank them! From Pedro the Cruel of Portugal to Richard the Lionheart, and from Isabella the She Wolf of France to Vlad the Impaler, the team unravel their nefarious deeds and personal vendettas to decide who can be crowned as the worst monarch. MORE Richard the Lionheart Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/richard-the-lionheart/id1564113746?i=1000655921841 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/0vJVuLhSWVzisKBbbNVUqa Queen Isabella: She-Wolf of France Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/queen-isabella-she-wolf-of-france/id1564113746?i=1000698125125 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/1549buXakOjWxxmQXqgnXc This episode was edited by Tim Artsall and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Freddy Chick. Gone Medieval is presented by Dr. Eleanor Janega. Audio editor is Amy Haddow, the senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds. Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Matt Lewis?

  From long-lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places, to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr Eleanor Janiger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life, only on History Hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:42Speaker 01

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• 1:15Speaker 02

  In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glennie, and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

• 1:31Speaker 03

  It's one of the first times, really, that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers. If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

• 1:39Speaker 02

  In Our Time, listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Tea or coffee? Love a cup of tea.

• 1:51Eleanor Janega?

  Hello, I'm Dr Eleanor Janiger, and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research, from the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes, to the Crusades. We delve into the rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here.

• 2:29Eleanor Janega?

  One of the huge perks of working at History Hit is that sometimes I'm let out of the Gone Medieval dungeon and allowed to visit our sister podcasts. Recently, I did just that, going over to After Dark to hang out with Anthony and Maddie, who are absolute gems. We had a brilliant time while I ranted about who Medieval Europe's most evil monarch is. I had so much fun, in fact, that I wanted to make sure all you wonderful Gone Medieval listeners could check it out, too.

• 2:58Speaker 05

  Today, our guest is, I think, possibly the only person who we could have on for this. It's Dr. Eleanor Yanaga back again.

• 3:04Eleanor Janega?

  Hello.

• 3:05Speaker 05

  Hello. We love to see it. Now, Eleanor, if you don't know, first of all, are you on dry rot? What's going on?

• 3:12Speaker 07

  I thought you said, are you on dry rot?

• 3:13Eleanor Janega?

  That's right. Girl, get on a dry rot.

• 3:17Speaker 05

  If you're not, like, what are you doing? Eleanor is, for anyone who doesn't know, host of our sister podcast from History Hit, Gone Medieval, alongside the brilliant Matt Lewis. And she's the star of a lot of History Hit documentaries, right? You have racked them up, girl.

• 3:31Speaker 07

  Yeah, in luxurious locations. We go to Yorkshire, she goes to Avignon.

• 3:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, we've been really whining about this today. Eleanor's latest Medieval Apocalypse out now?

• 3:40Eleanor Janega?

  Hmm, out now, yeah.

• 3:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's a cracker. Go and watch it. You've picked a smorgasbord of awful monarchs for us today. And we're gonna go through the list, and then we're gonna announce a winner. We're gonna crown a winner of the worst ever monarch. But first of all, don't give us any names, but give us a sense of just how awful some of these people are gonna be today.

• 4:00Eleanor Janega?

  Okay, so we have rulers who are pursuing their own vendettas, which may or may not end up involving cutting people's hearts out.

• 4:12Speaker 05

  Ooh.

• 4:13Eleanor Janega?

  We have rulers who are doing things like just getting kind of bored of this whole prisoner thing and killing everybody. We have got rulers who are also, ooh, it's gonna give the game away, impaling rather a lot of people.

• 4:28Speaker 07

  Oh, I do. We know who that's gonna be.

• 4:30Eleanor Janega?

  Look, what do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? Okay?

• 4:33Speaker 05

  It's Richard III, right? Surely?

• 4:36Eleanor Janega?

  So yeah, there's like a lot of different ways to be a dickhead.

• 4:39Speaker 07

  Oh, that needs to be the title of this episode. A lot of different ways to be a dickhead. Different ways in history to be a dickhead, right? Okay, so I'm gonna start with one of them now. We're gonna name and shame.

• 4:50Speaker 05

  One of the dickheads.

• 4:51Speaker 07

  One of the dickheads. The first being, I've never heard of this person. Like, this is my first encounter. Pedro the Cruel.

• 4:58Speaker 05

  Is this nominative determinism?

• 4:59Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, I know, right? He's wrong, and they're like, what should we call him? Pedro the Cruel.

• 5:04Speaker 05

  I am looking for baby names currently, so I'll put it on the list.

• 5:08Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, absolutely. So he is Portuguese, and he is also known as Pedro the First in Portugal. And so this is one of the reasons why you kind of don't hear about him up here. We have a tendency to sort of ignore Iberian history for one reason or another. But homeboy seems to be like, he's just like one of these like classic kings, right? Where it's like, he decides that what he's going to do with his reign is like, get back at everyone that he thinks has wronged him.

• 5:37Speaker 07

  Oh, no. I'm so afraid that might be me if I was a king.

• 5:40Speaker 05

  100%.

• 5:42Eleanor Janega?

  You know, like, who can blame him?

• 5:43Speaker 07

  Have it like, just buckle up, because this is gonna look bad.

• 5:46Speaker 05

  You'd have your burn book going through it, like.

• 5:49Speaker 07

  All those boys from secondary school, they're gonna be in for it now. No jokes, go on, sorry.

• 5:53Speaker 05

  Name names.

• 5:54Eleanor Janega?

  So yeah, basically, there's a lot going on down at the court in Portugal. And a lot of all of this kind of hinges on infidelity, right? So because what has happened is like, at a point in time, Pedro's sister is supposed to be married off to the crown of Castile. The king of Castile is kind of like not interested in his sister. He's got like a mistress, so his sister kind of like comes back in infamy. And then they're like, Castile! You know, his dad has a mistress, Lenore, and Pedro doesn't like that. Then Pedro celebrates by going and getting his own mistress. And so there are, there's like just a lot going on, right?

• 6:32Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 6:32Eleanor Janega?

  So everyone's feelings are hurt. Essentially.

• 6:36Speaker 07

  Oh my god, that's amazing.

• 6:37Eleanor Janega?

  Everyone's feeling her.

• 6:38Speaker 07

  And then they go to shit.

• 6:39Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, exactly. And it's like, you know, ordinarily, one simply has one's mistresses when one is royalty, right? Like, that is something that you can do. And what Pedro has done is he gets married off to the daughter of the Duke of Bourbon. And her name is Blanche, which was rather the style at the time. And so this is an incredibly important match, you know? Portugal is always really kind of worried about Castile possibly coming and eating them. You know, they want to make sure that they are an independent kingdom. And the Dukes of Bourbon are incredibly wealthy. So this is like a really, really good match. Trouble with this is that Pedro's not

• 7:22Eleanor Janega?

  that interested in Blanche. And he instead has a girlfriend named Inés. Okay. And Inés came along with Blanche to court and is one of her ladies in waiting. It's messy. And Pedro is basically like, oh, hell, yeah, I like this. And they take up with each other. Pedro's dad, not a huge fan of this. He's like, homie, like, you can't be mad. We can't be mad at Castile, who sent your sister back, and then you're doing the same thing over here. And Pedro's like, I think we can.

• 7:53Speaker 07

  I'm gonna do it, nonetheless.

• 7:55Eleanor Janega?

  And so they're like, we are separating you from your girlfriend. And Pedro's like, I am leaving. And like, he storms out after Inés. You know, it depends on who you ask. Pedro claims that they get married in like, secret against.

• 8:07Speaker 07

  And as in he did.

• 8:08Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, like, by this time, like, poor Blanche, R.I.P., has died in childbirth.

• 8:12Speaker 07

  Oh, she's gone.

• 8:13Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, she's, it's the style of the time, right?

• 8:15Speaker 07

  She's a supportive character.

• 8:16Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, like.

• 8:17Speaker 07

  Marginal, okay.

• 8:18Eleanor Janega?

  And so, like, ordinarily, then, you know, Pedro's like, okay, well, great. This clears the way for me to marry the chick up and bang in the whole time. And his dad is like, no. Because like, you are a prince and I, you are going to get married off to a princess. You're going to get married off to someone powerful, not a lady in waiting. And Pedro's like, go marry my girlfriend, bye. And it depends on who you ask. Some people say. Good for Pedro. Do you know?

• 8:39Speaker 07

  I have a feeling we probably shouldn't be on his side. I don't know where this goes.

• 8:43Eleanor Janega?

  So. Basically, what happens is he says, he claims that he went and married Inez. One way or another, they're kind of like, you know, maybe they're living in sin. Other people are like, he's definitely not married. But obviously, this is one of these, like, he said, she says, and it's difficult to know. Because obviously Pedro is gonna say they got married, right? Like, in order to stop everything. And obviously, his dad is gonna be like, the hell you did, right? Because he's wanting to still kind of like, keep this alive. Pedro's dad decides to solve this by having Inez murdered. It's so...

• 9:15Speaker 07

  Still kind of Team Pedro, then?

• 9:16Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah.

• 9:18Speaker 07

  The dad is bad. Okay, so far.

• 9:20Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, now, one of the people who murdered Inez is Pedro's half-brother.

• 9:26Speaker 07

  Wait, one of the people that murdered Inez is Pedro's half-brother? Okay, yeah.

• 9:30Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, there's like, three dudes who, who kill her, right? And basically Pedro freaks out, as one does, and he starts an open revolt against his father. Now, I don't have a problem with this. I'm like, you know, treat yourself, homeboy. That seems fine to me.

• 9:43Speaker 07

  Killed my wife, so...

• 9:44Eleanor Janega?

  He loses. And Pedro does. And so he has to capitulate to his dad. He gets brought before the court, and he's like, yeah, sorry, dad, definitely didn't mean to rebel against you. Uh, I'll never do it again, blah, blah, blah. And his dad is like, okay, yeah, fine, like, we'll marry you after Princess, it'll all be fine. And then his dad kicks the bucket three months later. Circumstances vaguely mysterious, like, who knows? Like, it could just be, you know, like, I'm gonna be real with you, it's the Middle Ages, he might have just got a cold.

• 10:08Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:09Eleanor Janega?

  Like, I don't know, right? So...

• 10:10Speaker 07

  Either way, dead.

• 10:11Eleanor Janega?

  Either way, he's dead. And so Pedro is like, for my first act, I'm going to arrest everyone who killed my wife, including...

• 10:18Speaker 05

  I'm still his side!

• 10:20Speaker 07

  Yeah, fair enough.

• 10:20Eleanor Janega?

  And that would be fine, I think, that would be fine. It is alleged that two of the individuals, one kind of gets away, are then brought to Pedro, and he decides that he's going to kill them himself.

• 10:34Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 10:34Eleanor Janega?

  And that in order to do this, the way that he decides to kill them is he cuts their chests open and tears their hearts out.

• 10:40Speaker 05

  No, do you know what? I'm still Team Pedro.

• 10:43Speaker 07

  I might be okay with this.

• 10:44Speaker 05

  Do it for Love King, like, I'm on board with it.

• 10:48Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, so like, he tears their hearts out, and he's like, this is what you did to me.

• 10:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:51Eleanor Janega?

  Um, and so, like, and so this is where, where things get weird, right? People report on this, he definitely killed these guys, like, one way or another. Whether or not he tore their hearts out... We don't have a way of knowing. I'm going with it because it's poetic. We love, right? But we learn all about this through varying chronicles and chronicles are usually like, you know, basically some rich guy pays a guy off to write the history of it, right? What is said at this point in time in the Chronicle, I do not believe that this happened, but they say that for his next trick, Pedro then goes and has Inez's body exhumed. And that he puts her on the throne and puts a little crown on her head and says, everyone, come worship your queen. Like come and come and like kiss her hand and like makes everyone

• 11:36Eleanor Janega?

  like line up to like-

• 11:37Speaker 07

  That's not romantic. Don't.

• 11:38Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah.

• 11:38Speaker 07

  He dug up her body and put it on the throne.

• 11:40Speaker 05

  But he's obviously not well and he loved her so much and he's heartbroken.

• 11:44Speaker 07

  I'm not well, but I'm not gonna go and dig up my granny, am I?

• 11:47Eleanor Janega?

  This is like getting dangerous into actually, I love the cadaver sign and territory, but like-

• 11:53Speaker 05

  He may have, he may have crossed over, but do you know what? It's still, it's still not unromantic.

• 11:58Speaker 07

  That is ghoulish, though.

• 12:00Speaker 05

  It's very Roman Emperor.

• 12:01Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, he put a crown on her head and then he's like, kiss her, kiss her to like everyone.

• 12:06Speaker 05

  So people at the court are like, okay, I guess we're doing this.

• 12:09Eleanor Janega?

  And like, obviously like we're dealing with a guy who like is cutting hearts out apparently. So allegedly they did it. Now, I don't think that that necessarily happened. Great storytelling in the story. Don't think it happened.

• 12:18Speaker 07

  Which one? The cadaver on the throne?

• 12:19Eleanor Janega?

  The cadaver on the throne story. Yeah, I know. But you know, it tells us a lot about what people think about him and kind of his single-minded determination. What he definitely does do is he does exhume her body and he creates a couple of like very grand tombs for her and he has her like brought alongside so that she can be thought of as the former queen. I mean, I think that's kind of sweet. He dies kind of soon after this and he has like this super like grand tomb made so that they are like buried next to each other, facing each other so that at the resurrection, the first thing-

• 12:51Speaker 05

  Straight back in Team Pedro here.

• 12:52Eleanor Janega?

  I know, right? So it's like, oh, so now you guys can't be wife guys. I see how it is. And so they are supposed to see each other first when they rise for the last judgment. And they end and it says on the tomb, until the end of the world.

• 13:06Speaker 07

  Oh, apocalypse.

• 13:07Speaker 05

  Inez and Pedro.

• 13:08Eleanor Janega?

  I know.

• 13:09Speaker 07

  Here, listen, I'm, he gets, he gets a solid eight out of 10 from me in a positive way. I think, I think, I see, I think it's spin, right? The cruel thing is spin from another reign and another whatever.

• 13:22Speaker 05

  I'd cut someone's heart if they killed my husband. I would.

• 13:25Speaker 07

  Like I do like Shane an awful lot, but-

• 13:28Eleanor Janega?

  Listen, I support you both.

• 13:29Speaker 05

  You would need Shane to help you with the practicalities and you'd be dead, so you wouldn't be able to do it.

• 13:33Speaker 07

  I've got a book to write. I can't, I don't have time to be doing that.

• 13:35Eleanor Janega?

  Who has time for revenge in all this? So it is one of these-

• 13:38Speaker 05

  I am 100% on board with Pedro.

• 13:40Eleanor Janega?

  So basically, what we really see from the story of Pedro, though, is that certainly he does kind of like straight-up serial killer violence, you know, but it is revenge, you know? And I mean, it's giving Mandy, right? Like, shout out to fairly obscure Nicolas Cage movies. But, you know, I think that what it definitely tells us a lot about is how the nobility and royalty usually comport themselves. And it's like, you can kind of do horrible things, but you're not supposed to take it personally. It's very odd. So it sort of like just tells us how there's a lot of like weird violence going on at the noble rank ordinarily.

• 14:18Speaker 05

  Could we read it as, it's kind of like a corruption of the chivalric tradition, right? Of like, kind of being honorable and treating women in a certain way and putting them on a pedestal. And this is kind of like, this is gum tits up.

• 14:31Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, like, I mean, because the thing is, within like the courtly love tradition, it's totally normal to have a girlfriend and like, because no one gets married because they love each other. But you're supposed to like, keep it on the down low. It's supposed to be something that you're doing over there that you don't make everyone see.

• 14:44Speaker 05

  And you don't necessarily cut people's hearts out.

• 14:45Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, I know. You don't cut people's hearts out. You don't, you love your girlfriend, but you don't try to turn her into your wife. And indeed, a lot of the time, the office of marriage is seen as antithetical to romance. So he's kind of like subverting the normal way that we would think about romance and marriage.

• 15:01Speaker 05

  Is there a film about him? Because-

• 15:03Eleanor Janega?

  There ought to be.

• 15:03Speaker 05

  I'm on board. I want to make this. I really fancy him.

• 15:06Eleanor Janega?

  There you go. I'm sure that the Portuguese have made one.

• 15:09Speaker 07

  That's spiral. That is spiral from someone you've never heard of.

• 15:13Speaker 05

  Team Pedro.

• 15:13Eleanor Janega?

  Listen, I'm doing that. It's like, I've come on and I've been like, "Do you like that?" "Oh, sweet, really good."

• 15:22Speaker 07

  We are about to discuss a figure that everybody loves. We can hear you in the comments now. "It's fine. It's just interpretation. You'll survive." That said, Richard the Lionheart.

• 15:33Eleanor Janega?

  Okay, this fucking guy. Listen, listen. This, he's the, this, he's the Wario of Pedro the Cruel, right? Okay, like absolutely opposite, absolutely opposite, right? And everyone is like, "Aww, Richard the Lionheart, really great guy." Yeah, because he wasn't here.

• 15:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:49Eleanor Janega?

  So you can just like turn him into anything that you want.

• 15:52Speaker 05

  In my head, he is the literal lion in the Disney.

• 15:55Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, yeah, like unfortunately, everyone our age just grew up with like the sexy fox robin hood, which was very confusing. And then he shows up as like a lion at the end and everything gets better.

• 16:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:07Eleanor Janega?

  The thing.

• 16:07Speaker 05

  That is the extent of my historical knowledge.

• 16:09Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah. Yeah, like, okay, so the thing that we we've got to understand about him is like, he does not care about this country at all whatsoever. Right. It's like, he's got no interest in England as anything other than a bank account, which is.

• 16:21Speaker 05

  So interesting because today he's so evoked in right wing circles and, you know, is such a kind of stalwart of English values and blah, blah. And he wasn't even here.

• 16:31Eleanor Janega?

  He came here like four times. Humboy did not speak English, right? Like.

• 16:36Speaker 05

  Really?

• 16:36Eleanor Janega?

  No, he like, he speaks French and he speaks Osseton. This is the Frenchest guy who ever done did French.

• 16:42Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:43Eleanor Janega?

  And when he becomes the king of England, essentially, he's like, awesome, because what I am going to do is I'm going to treat England like a bank account. And I am just going to take all of this money and I'm going to go fight Saladin. Hashtag no homo. Like, like, like, let's also be clear, like, what the only good thing about Richard the Lionheart is his at least bisexuality. Like, you know, a flexible king, very close with his boys, etc. So, you know, what he does when he becomes king is he's like, great, now I'm going to go on crusade. And he establishes what is called a Saladin tithe here. And so he taxes everyone. There's this incredibly oppressive tax.

• 17:27Eleanor Janega?

  Every single person who owns any property at all whatsoever has to pay 25% of it, like, so that he can go on his little crusade.

• 17:34Speaker 05

  This is so interesting to me because the only thing that I know about this period is is it his brother is half brother John. It's meant to be the king that taxes the crap out of everybody. And actually, Richard's doing that already.

• 17:45Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, it's like 100% like, you know, the know the rules, HR comment. It was like, he's like, big tax. Everyone's like, oh, you're so sweet. And when John does it, they're like, hello, HR. You know, so it's like, and it's because he he puts this incredible tax on them. And then one of the other things that he does is he actually sells a bunch of public offices. Where he's literally like, oh, hey, whomstwants this, I will sell it to you. Like, give me money and like you can be-

• 18:10Speaker 05

  And was that done in this period?

• 18:11Eleanor Janega?

  No!

• 18:11Speaker 05

  This is a new thing that he's-

• 18:12Eleanor Janega?

  Jesus Christ, no. Like, I mean, like, that's okay. And far be it from me to be like, oh, actually, like, really hereditary ways of passing things down is-

• 18:20Speaker 05

  Really exposing yourself here.

• 18:21Eleanor Janega?

  I know, but it's like, you shouldn't also like be able to sell.

• 18:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 18:25Eleanor Janega?

  You know, varying offices like that. That is not the one, in my opinion. So he imposes these incredibly brutal taxes and then is like, pish. And like, he is on his way to the Holy Land. On the way to the Holy Land, after he's fleeced everyone, like, in the country, he first stops off down in Sicily, immediately like besieges a bunch of towns, kills a bunch of people because he's like, I don't know, I'm bored.

• 18:49Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 18:49Eleanor Janega?

  This is what kings do. Yeah, I just think that like my nephew should actually be like the Duke of Messina. So, and everyone's like, wow, that's interesting, right? And then he eventually, like, they eventually get him on, on a boat, right? It was like ordinarily, when one goes on crusade, one does not besiege several Christian kingdoms on the way. But you know, Richard's built different. He gets over to the Holy Land and he lands at Accra, right? And this is still kind of like a very, it had just kind of fallen to Saladin and they managed to take it back. He apparently has like the equivalent of what we think might be scurvy now at the time. And he's like sitting on like a bed, being moved around and he's like shooting people with crossbows. And I'm just like, I hate it. I hate it.

• 19:32Eleanor Janega?

  So eventually they take back over the city. That would be good. He though, is worried that they are going to get stuck in Accra. He wants to go take over Jerusalem and he's got about 2,700 prisoners, Muslim prisoners. And he's kind of like using them as leverage against Saladin being like-

• 19:49Speaker 05

  2,700, I mean, that's, what's the management of that like? How, how is that working?

• 19:53Eleanor Janega?

  Well, eventually the management isn't particularly great because he, since he gets worried that he's going to get stuck there, he just kills them all. Okay. He just kills like almost 3,000. Thought through the management of. Yeah, and he's like a bunch of women and children. Whatever. Like, I guess that we will just like. To require. Kill like they should not have been living in that city, I guess. Which is not a normal thing to do. People don't ordinarily just kill the entire population.

• 20:20Speaker 07

  Not.

• 20:21Eleanor Janega?

  Okay.

• 20:21Speaker 07

  I'm hearing you. I just.

• 20:24Eleanor Janega?

  So then they're all like, okay, that's it. We're gonna go take Jerusalem back from Saladin like a go Christians go or whatever. And then like on the way, like, everybody is like, oh, it's so gonna happen, babe. Babe, we are gonna take back Jerusalem. And so they're like, we're gonna, we're gonna elect you king of Jerusalem. And, and he's like, really? Wow, who is getting elected? Crossbow to one side. The answer is a guy called Conrad. Conrad gets, gets elected and Richard takes this poorly. And a few weeks later, Conrad is then killed by an assassin.

• 20:57Speaker 07

  Oh.

• 20:57Eleanor Janega?

  And when I say assassin, I mean like one of the OG original hashashins. Like, you know, trained by like the old man of the mountain. And Richard's like, wow, that's crazy.

• 21:09Speaker 07

  Who would have done?

• 21:11Eleanor Janega?

  Literally, everyone is like, so it was Richard, right? Like, Richard paid for this. Like, all of the Christians are like, this guy is out of control. Like, he 100% has killed Conrad. And everyone is like, dude, what? And Richard's like, anyway, that's crazy. I gotta go. Uh, and he like basically takes off after that. And everyone is like, what? What, like, what just happened? People are not happy with him, right? And so basically, by the time he shows back up in Europe, he gets arrested almost right away by one of the Holy Roman Imperial Dukes, Leopold, who's like, remember how you killed Conrad, my cousin? I hate this, right? And he puts him under house arrest.

• 21:53Eleanor Janega?

  Now, there is some back and forth about whether or not you should be allowed to do that. The Pope is like, you're being very bad, Leopold. Let him go. And Leopold's like, I, yeah, I will. I'll let him go by sending him to the Holy Roman Emperor. And the Holy Roman Emperor is like, I hate you. You suck. And then the Holy Roman Emperor has him like locked up. So meanwhile, then, everybody's got to like ransom him out. And the Holy Roman Emperor has given it a like $100 billion. And basically, he asks for so much money that it is like the yearly revenue of England three times over.

• 22:24Speaker 07

  Oh, wow. Yearly revenue of England three times over. So he, he isn't coming back?

• 22:27Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, well.

• 22:28Speaker 07

  Well.

• 22:28Eleanor Janega?

  Except for Eleanor of Aquitaine is a real one. So it's like Eleanor of Aquitaine is like my fail sense. Like Richard's Eleanor's favorite.

• 22:37Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 22:37Eleanor Janega?

  He's like a real mama's boy, you know? And so she's like, okay, like I'll, I'll make it work. She goes around again, puts like huge taxes on everyone to go get like her wastrel son out of prison. So like basically bankrupts the kingdom again.

• 22:53Speaker 05

  And what is the feeling on the ground in England at this time?

• 22:55Eleanor Janega?

  So in England, they're like, someone must get the king.

• 22:58Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 22:59Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, the king, because he's not there. So you can, you can like make any legend you want up about him. It's like, it's this vacuum that allows you to be like, damn, well, I know our life sucks right now, but if the king just came back.

• 23:11Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 23:11Eleanor Janega?

  You know, like that thing, it's always this John who's bad. It's like, based on what, homie? Like, I mean, like the incredible ruling that you had under Richard?

• 23:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:20Eleanor Janega?

  He doesn't care about you. Like he has no interest in this at all whatsoever. So he like, his mom like basically bankrupts the country, gets all this money out. They let him out and people hate Richard so much that when he's let out by the Holy Roman Emperor, like he writes and he's like, by the way, like to varying people that he's let out. And he's like, the devil is loose. Look to yourself.

• 23:42Speaker 05

  Oh, sick burn.

• 23:43Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah. That's actually giving me chills.

• 23:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:45Eleanor Janega?

  Where they're like, this is, this is not someone that people like, this is, this is a mass murderer who hires assassins to kill people that he doesn't like, who is like personally pretty disagreeable. Like was just being an asshole the entire time while he was like under arrest by the Holy Roman Emperor and being like, I'm actually much more important than you. And the Holy Roman Emperor is like, I am literally the emperor.

• 24:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 24:07Eleanor Janega?

  I can kind of hear Russell Crowe going like, the devil is loose.

• 24:12Speaker 05

  And then singing a ditty.

• 24:13Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, exactly. A hundred percent. Like, so eventually like he does get let out and then like, I cannot stress how much he does not come back to England. Like he, like, he doesn't care at all. Like he just ends up getting like embroiled in a bunch of wars with France, like building a really big castle there that he really likes. And just kind of like hanging out there because he does not care about England. He does not want to come back to England and he never does come back to England. But does he care about England? No. Okay. No. And then when he's like, when he dies eventually, like, he just gets killed by like some 14-year-old with a crossbow who has lucky shot. Because like, also, he's like, he simply cannot stop besieging people in France. It's like, this is, this is his downfall.

• 24:53Eleanor Janega?

  And he has some of his viscera buried in Rouen, and the rest of him is at Font de Roux Abbey, where his dad is buried and where his mother will eventually be. Like, he does, so disinterested in England that like, none of his body even comes here.

• 25:08Speaker 05

  Even comes, wow.

• 25:09Eleanor Janega?

  So it's just like, the entire legend about him being a good king, or being particularly righteous, is just because he's not around to piss you off. So you can say anything that you want about it. Ask anyone else in Europe, and they're like, that man is a monster. He's an awful person. And I think that we don't talk about it enough. So yeah, screw that guy.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasiapro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.

• 26:19Speaker 08

  After civil war, regicide, and Cromwell's Republic, the monarchy returned. But Britain would never be the same. I'm Professor Suzanne Lipscomb, and this month on Not Just the Tudors, we're transported back to the age of Restoration royalty, from Charles II to Queen Anne and the birth of the Empire. Join me on Not Just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 27:04Speaker 05

  Now, Eleanor, being an asshole with a crown on your head is not exclusively

• 27:11Speaker 05

  Tell me about Isabella the She-Wolf of France, cool name.

• 27:14Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. So she's like my fave. She's such a messy. She is so messy. And like, this is really, this is really one of those like, hmm, where you have to steel yourself. So Isabella the She-Wolf of France, you know, they're trying to say it as like, brackets derogatory. I'm like, brackets positive. And so Isabella was a French princess and she marries into the English crown as one does. And so she is married to Edward II. Now Edward II, another one of our noted gay kings. And we love him. And, you know, initially, when she comes onto the throne, he's got one boyfriend and she's like, I can make this work. I don't really care. I'm like 12 anyway. So like, who cares?

• 27:54Speaker 05

  Fantastic. Great. Great. Like, leave me alone. Love it.

• 27:57Eleanor Janega?

  This boyfriend dies. We get a new boyfriend on the scene. A new boyfriend, hmm, we do not be getting on. And Edward II is all like, I like to give my boyfriend other people's land. This goes really wrong. He eventually ends up giving some of Isabella's dowry lands to his boyfriend. And Isabella is like, I think the fuck not. Right? So she gets sent back to Paris. She's like, goodbye. You will not, you will not be finding me here. But also like Edward was like so busy, like making out with his boyfriend that he sort of didn't notice that Isabella also took Edward III along with him. So like, she's got the air. Stupidest move that you could like, you definitely need to kidnap your son at this point in time and like, but no.

• 28:42Eleanor Janega?

  So whilst at the French court, she then gets in with a bunch of other English people who are in exile.

• 28:51Eleanor Janega?

  Right, because the lands get taken from varying people in order to give it to the boyfriend. And so they're like, well, I don't have any lands, so I guess I'm just gonna go dick around at the French throne. And you know, like, the French just simply love to, like, irritate the English anyway. So they're like, okay, great. You're like, why don't you come hang out here?

• 29:06Speaker 05

  Yeah. So basically Edward has created a whole community of enemies that his wife is not around to.

• 29:12Speaker 07

  Great move for him to do that.

• 29:15Eleanor Janega?

  Nobody said he was smart, okay?

• 29:17Speaker 07

  No.

• 29:17Eleanor Janega?

  Right, like, uh, so eventually, one of the people that Isabella meets is this guy called Roger Mortimer. Now, some people say that Roger's just like one of the guys who's in exile, and he happens to be like a, you know, a pretty good military tactician. Other people say that Isabella is shagging Roger so hard. I like to believe the latter because I just think it's fun and cool. And I also think turnabout is fair play. You don't have to have a boyfriend. Why can't she have a boyfriend? This is equality, okay? And so eventually, they end up coming back to England and they take over the kingdom so fast. Like, it's embarrassing. Like, everybody is kind of fleeing west. They kind of land over in Norfolk and they just go across the country.

• 30:00Eleanor Janega?

  Eventually, they catch up with Edward in Wales. Boyfriend gets killed. Edward dies, okay? We don't exactly know how. It could just be that he's imprisoned, you know? And it's pretty easy to die when you're in prison in some indignity. You know, like, if you were just, like, in a dungeon, like, yeah, you'll die pretty quickly. There are rumors that he is killed by a red hot poker up the bum. I don't think that that is likely. I think that that's one of those things that medieval people say in order to...

• 30:34Speaker 07

  In order to indicate his same-sex attraction.

• 30:36Eleanor Janega?

  Exactly.

• 30:36Speaker 07

  It's not necessarily a real thing, but it's showing...

• 30:39Speaker 05

  And it's sort of like violent irony of like, huh, look what happened.

• 30:42Eleanor Janega?

  Exactly, yeah. It's like, you know, ironic punishment division. It's something that you would see really commonly in hell frescoes when you are talking about, like, sodomites are in hell. This is the sort of thing. So it's probably more of like a motif, right? But one way or another, he dies. And so Isabella's like, sweet, I'm the queen now. Because Edward III is like a kid, like a tiny kid. And so she's like, I rule the kingdom with my boyfriend. So like, so Roger is like, kind of sitting there and they're like woo woo. So she's taken over the kingdom. Like, I cannot stress how much she is like deposed and killed a king, right? One way or another, and ruling with her out of woodlock boyfriend, which is like such a power move. It's absolutely incredible. Presumably not a popular one in England.

• 31:24Eleanor Janega?

  No. And, you know, the trouble is too, that she's like, well, now that I'm the queen, she's like, yeah, I'm gonna take those lands. Thank you very much. So it's like, does she learn very much?

• 31:34Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:35Eleanor Janega?

  No. And so eventually, when Edward III comes into the majority, one of the first things he does is he basically kills Roger Mortimer. He's like, enough. No, thank, like, like, right away, like, you are beheaded. No, thank you. You're done. And he's like, mum? And she's like, what? And, and he's like, you are in so much trouble. You are under arrest. And it's like, oh, yeah, like, what does under arrest mean? It's like, you have to go live at Castle Rising in Norfolk. You can, here's like, enlist money to do it up so that it's very nice to have fun hunting. And she's like, okay. And like, she eventually raises the Black Prince. She's like, super, super instrumental in the Black Prince's education. And she is really the link to the claim to the French throne that starts

• 32:20Eleanor Janega?

  off the Hundred Years' War. But she's also like a messy, messy queen. I love her because it's like, in between all of this, one of the things that she kicks off down in France is something called the Tour of Nestlé Affair. Do you know about this? No. Okay, so this is so funny. She goes down to a banquet in France, and she notices that there's like, these knights that are wearing these really ornate purses. Where'd they get those purses? Because Isabella gave those purses to her sisters-in-law for Christmas. And she's like, where'd you get those purses, homeboys? And so she's like, oh, I bet you're shagging my sisters-in-law. She gets them all arrested. All her sisters-in-law are arrested and imprisoned. She is petty.

• 33:03Eleanor Janega?

  All the knights are killed. Most of the sisters-in-law die in prison. And this is what calls into question the legitimacy of the French heir.

• 33:14Speaker 05

  Wow. Okay, so she, so her legacy is huge and across so many different lines and story plots. Oh my God.

• 33:23Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, she is 100% like a real master power broker.

• 33:28Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 33:29Eleanor Janega?

  She really changes things for better or worse. And you know, she is number one, the reason why you could say that perhaps we need like an English king on the throne. And in the second place, she is like, oh, and by the way, English kings are French. It's, it's all Isabella. And like, she's a real one. I'm telling you, I absolutely love her because she's just the worst. It's like she, the girl has receipts. She notices everything. She's incredibly smart and she will call you out, right? And I love that for her.

• 33:59Speaker 05

  When does she get called the she-wolf of France? Is this something that comes later or is this in her own lifetime?

• 34:03Eleanor Janega?

  It's in her own lifetime. They're like this chick, you know, it's a, you just, you take over one kingdom. And it's just like, okay. And especially after she is forced into retirement, such as it is, it becomes a lot easier to do that.

• 34:19Speaker 05

  Notorious moniker, yeah.

• 34:20Eleanor Janega?

  But you know, luckily for her, she faces absolutely no consequences in her lifetime. So, you know, I love that, you know, like Roger faces consequences. She does not, you know, she lives a.

• 34:29Speaker 05

  That is fascinating. And I suppose that talks to the relationship between her and her son Edward, right? That he, okay, he scolds her and is like, you need to go and.

• 34:36Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, like it's like.

• 34:37Speaker 05

  You need to go somewhere else, but he doesn't kill her.

• 34:38Eleanor Janega?

  No, no. So it, it shows that at the very least, he really does still love her. And he's sort of clear why these things needed to happen, but it's just like, we're done now. Put a line under it.

• 34:49Speaker 05

  Marks out 10 for Isabella, please.

• 34:53Speaker 05

  I'm gonna go with five.

• 34:54Speaker 07

  I was gonna say five.

• 34:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 34:56Eleanor Janega?

  Okay, wow.

• 34:57Speaker 05

  Bad, but can't help but enjoy her a little bit, so.

• 35:00Speaker 07

  I like the strategy. It's not the most foolproof strategy, but she, at least she's strategizing. She's not just laying down, taking it.

• 35:08Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 35:08Speaker 07

  She is claiming power for herself. I kind of admire that. But it's kind of like she forgot to cross the Ts and dot the Is a little bit. It's like, oh, you could have just, if you had been a tad smarter.

• 35:19Speaker 05

  She learned her lessons along the way.

• 35:21Speaker 07

  And but she was, as you say, she was fine. She was comfortable. She was in a castle at the end. You know, she's, she's good.

• 35:26Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, it's, you know, the real, sometimes rich people do not face consequences. Hours, you know, which is interesting because her husband certainly did.

• 35:34Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 35:35Eleanor Janega?

  But, you know.

• 35:35Speaker 07

  But that was other rich people imposing consequences on rich people. They get to do it. We don't.

• 35:39Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 35:57Speaker 01

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• 37:16Speaker 07

  The next potential worst person in medieval Europe is somebody we know a little, a little bit on this podcast. We've done an episode on him before, and that is our old friend Vlad, Vlad Dracul.

• 37:28Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah.

• 37:29Speaker 07

  And he- Friend of the pod. He is, he, you know, it's, this is weird in many ways because you'll say that name and actually, a lot of people will have baggage, literary baggage, you know, horror film baggage. And a lot of people think they have it through those things, through the graphic novels, through the movies, they think they have a way into the actual history. But sometimes it's even bloody worse than you might have imagined.

• 37:52Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah. I mean, very little actual blood drinking, probably, but like, it's not good.

• 37:58Speaker 07

  No. Question mark.

• 37:59Eleanor Janega?

  Let's just put it that way. We're like, we don't know. You know, it is rather the style at the time when you get these particular rulers in this part of the world to kind of accuse them of blood drinking.

• 38:11Speaker 05

  That's kind of a trope.

• 38:13Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, exactly. But he did enough bad things that I'm kind of like, yeah, help yourself.

• 38:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:17Eleanor Janega?

  You know.

• 38:18Speaker 05

  We have a woodcut in front of us and I'm going to describe it before Eleanor tells us anything more. And we have spoken about this image, I think, on the pod before, but this is a medieval woodcut, some black and white, of course. And it is a man who I'd take to be Vlad, sat at a table, eating a feast. He's got a plate of some kind of food in front of him.

• 38:40Speaker 05

  And around him is a scene of absolute chaos. There's a servant ripping out, I don't know, the entrails from a beheaded torso on the floor. There's discarded hands and feet everywhere. And in the background, which I think is not necessarily conducive to a relaxing meal, is a wall of human beings, dead, impaled on wooden spikes.

• 39:04Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah.

• 39:05Speaker 05

  What's occurring, please?

• 39:06Eleanor Janega?

  Okay, so our good friend Vlad, he is the volvoda, sometimes volvoda of Volakja. It rolls off the tongue. And you've got to understand that this is kind of part of Transylvania. It's not all Transylvania. Transylvania is a very large area. And at this point in history, where their allegiances lie is questionable, right? So sometimes they're under the auspices of Hungary and sometimes the Ottomans are taking over, right? And indeed Vlad grows up at the Ottoman court. He's like one of those hostages. It's kind of like the Game of Thrones-y type situation where you like have a hostage and they're like, oh yeah, you know, so we're going to be able to do things this way. When Vlad comes into majority, he begins almost immediately to beef with the Hungarian crown.

• 39:52Eleanor Janega?

  And as a part of this, he ends up going after the Saxons who live in the area, which is to say like they're German speakers. Like there's a, it is rather popular in Central Europe to kind of just like have some Germans show up and be like, hey, what's up? We run this town? You know, and it's just like, they can't be stopped. They won't be stopped. And so oftentimes you have some Germans show up and just like start bossing everybody around. Vlad takes a rather dim view. Of this, and he feels as though these guys who are oftentimes called Khuzars are they are interfering with his ability to run Volatia, he believes. So he decides that he is going to kill them all. And it's not enough to kill them all.

• 40:37Speaker 05

  Very diplomatic.

• 40:37Eleanor Janega?

  He also impales them all on some

• 40:41Speaker 05

  Is this a traditional thing to do in this region? Or is this a Vlad thing?

• 40:47Eleanor Janega?

  Vlad is just cheeto ahead of his time. He's a visionary.

• 40:50Speaker 05

  He's an innovator.

• 40:51Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, he's an innovator. And he really, he really is able to like go, go for it with these guys.

• 40:58Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 40:58Eleanor Janega?

  And I think this is an interesting point, because he also ends up at varying points in time beefing with the Ottomans, which is interesting. He kind of does a bit of a heel turn. Like he'll, oh, this boy loves a heel turn. It's like he will turn on the King of Hungary. He will turn on the Ottoman Emperor. He will, don't worry about this. And he will eventually get around to also impaling a couple of Ottomans. Just a couple. Because basically, like, the Ottomans are like, oh, yeah, are you gonna come do homage? Right? And you're gonna like, and, and he's like, oh, yeah. And by that, I mean, I'm impaling these messengers right now. And the Ottomans are like, what? That is, that is the exact opposite of what I just requested, right? And oftentimes, we kind of get this twisted in a modern sense. And we go, oh, yeah, well, he like impaled a bunch of Ottomans.

• 41:40Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 41:41Eleanor Janega?

  And

• 41:41Speaker 05

  I mean, it sounds like it did, Eleanor.

• 41:43Eleanor Janega?

  He did. I mean, he did. Like, I'm gonna be so real. But he impaled more Saxons. And what's interesting is that all of this killing, like, all of this incredibly brutal killing, you know, because like, the, the idea here is that these guys might have been alive when they were impaled. So it's just like a real

• 42:01Speaker 05

  That's a nice detail.

• 42:02Eleanor Janega?

  It's a real slow one.

• 42:04Speaker 07

  The sounds as they're on, you know, there's groaning, there's, there's crying out, there's

• 42:10Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, yeah. So it's like, so this is torture. And everyone is like, wow, that's really intense, Vlad. Hmm. Interestingly, he is a bit of kind of like a Romanian folk hero as a result of all this, because they're like, hell, yeah, I love to kill Germans.

• 42:27Speaker 07

  Then or now?

• 42:28Eleanor Janega?

  They're like, no.

• 42:29Speaker 07

  Now, even so.

• 42:29Eleanor Janega?

  Even now, because, you know, we, we've got to understand that Central Europe, and especially this part of Central Europe, is constantly in the process of being taken over by random people, right? So it's like you've got a whole bunch of people who kind of like are drive through and they go, oh, like, look, hi, it's us, it's the Hungarians. No, you do not know what we're saying and we control you now. Hey, what's up? It's us, a bunch of German guys. We are actually in charge of these lands now. And the local Velacians kind of see all of this as outside interference and they see Vlad as being more of the rightful ruler of the area. And to an extent, they see him as redressing historic wrongs.

• 43:12Eleanor Janega?

  Everyone else is like, damn bitch, you live like this.

• 43:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:17Speaker 05

  What are his motivations? Is this that he is defending his territory and that he is being a good ruler for his people? Or does he just have a fetish for sticking people on sticks? Which one is it?

• 43:28Eleanor Janega?

  Impossible to say, right? Like, it's very difficult to untangle this particularized knot because certainly he's doing it as a result of attempting to gain greater control over this area. Hundred percent. Like, he's not just doing it only for fun.

• 43:43Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 43:43Eleanor Janega?

  Right? And part of what he is doing is he is going as hard as you possibly can to make an example. Right? So it's like, you don't want to mess with this guy after that. You're like, he did what? Like, excuse me? I would really rather not, you know? And we definitely see like him get brought back into the fold of the Hungarians. Like, eventually he loses a couple of battles and then they're like, listen, you're very bad, but we are going to use you to like go fight in the Balkans against like Ottomans. So he's like one of these characters who really kind of moves around. It's like he'll sort of fight anyone, anywhere, depending on.

• 44:16Speaker 05

  So people harness that vibe that he has.

• 44:19Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, so they're like, if I could just like point that in the direction of my enemies, that would be great, that would be really ideal. But, you know, he ends up killing just lots and lots and lots of people. And a lot of them do happen to be Muslim as well. So, you know, like a lot of Muslim Bulgarians, for example, end up dead as a result of our good friend Vlad. And so it really kind of depends on who you're asking. But the fact of the matter is. Is one way or another, people at the time are like, excuse me, what? Right? Like, this is, this is so beyond the pale of what you would ordinarily do. And certainly, this is really antithetical to the way that medieval warfare often works.

• 44:57Speaker 07

  This is what's coming into my head as I listen to you talk about this going, you know, to a certain extent, you kind of go, oh, well, he's potentially regaining ground or he's defending territory or whatever it is. And then there's truth in that, I think. But there's also then the rules of warfare, right? And, and it feeds into a lot of the people we've been talking about today going, are you transgressing the accepted boundaries that we have either silently or, or through some kind of a tract or whatever, put down to go, this is how we conduct ourselves. This is what's expected within even extreme situations. And if you go beyond that, then you're causing a problem globally. But then if you come back onto a kind of a micro level, isn't there something about homeless people or beggars or something? And he brings them for a meal?

• 45:40Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, yeah, there's, yeah, there's this legend where it's like he's, he runs into a bunch of beggars and he's like, oh, it is I, you know, the, the count to come inside. And then he's like, whoa, actually killed you. Yeah, like very, like it kills them anyway. And this is kind of used to highlight his transgressive nature. Because, you know, obviously as a ruler and especially a Christian ruler, like in theory, you know, he, he is a Christian. And, you know, which flavor depends. Originally, he's Orthodox, but then he's like forced Catholic. Hashtag kink.

• 46:17Eleanor Janega?

  Like, as a part of this, you know, you have a kind of responsibility to the, the people who are underneath you. You know, there's a reason why whenever you see a medieval hell fresco, it's full of kings, right? It's like kings and bishops are the ones who are in hell. And it's because everybody kind of knows that it's like immoral to be rich, right? They're like, it's, it is actually bad. You are like living off of, you know, the, the actual work of people who are in serf, right? It's, it's not good. So you have this moral responsibility that you are supposed to be looking after the poor and the downtrodden. You should be giving to charity. You should be looking after these people. And you should not. And you should not kill them, even If you think they're kind of annoying, right? So whether or not that actually happened is dubious,

• 47:00Eleanor Janega?

  but it's being used as a way of kind of highlighting. And he doesn't have respect for his people either. Yes. Right? So, you know, because it would be one thing to just go, oh, yeah, well, okay, he does kill a lot of people, but they're Muslims or they're German. And are those people? Question mark. It's another thing to be like, and he also doesn't even look after his own people.

• 47:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:21Eleanor Janega?

  Right? So that's why you would circulate a story like that.

• 47:24Speaker 05

  Do you think that we remember him today because of the literary transformation that he undergoes in becoming Dracula? Or is he in his own right, a myth?

• 47:36Eleanor Janega?

  I think that we would be aware of him without Dracula. I think that like, I mean, you've seen that woodblock. You know, we were like, you know, weirdos like us would find that. We would find it, right? We'd be like, oh, who's he? Right? And, you know, it is enough of a transgression against norms that stories were told about this and everyone was like, Jesus, you know? As a result of it, I think that we would have heard about it, but I think that he would be in a little bit more obscurity. Right? I think that there are, especially around this early modern turn, you know, when we're getting into the really late medieval period, when we're about to hit the early modern period, there are a bunch of people who just start wilding out, which is a technical historical term. Right? You know, I'm thinking like Ferdinand and Isabella kicking off,

• 48:21Eleanor Janega?

  you know, with the Spanish Inquisition. You know, things like this where suddenly like torturing a bunch of people becomes a lot more acceptable and it will be a lot more acceptable in the early modern period because the early modern period is wild. So I think that we would kind of know about him, but he would just be kind of part of this larger pattern. And it is Bram Stoker, you know, one of the, you know, the second most famous Irish person, you know, I'm on a third because Oscar Wilde as well. Fine, I'll take third. Yeah, that's fine. So. He really immortalizes him by using these particular names, using these locations in order to flesh out the character of Dracula. Incredible book, I just read it for the first time this summer. Really enjoyed it.

• 49:06Speaker 07

  But you know what's a little bit disappointing? I read the book before I found out about real Vlad, so I read the book when I was like a teenager, but actually, once you learn the history, there's very little.

• 49:18Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, absolutely nothing. It's like the name.

• 49:21Speaker 07

  And the place.

• 49:22Speaker 05

  Transylvania, scary place.

• 49:24Speaker 07

  Yeah, and blood, that's kind of about it. That's quite a lot, I guess. Well, yeah, yeah.

• 49:30Eleanor Janega?

  But you know, this is one of these things where it's like, you know, the real monster is like, what if English chicks shag a Central European? Ooh, what if a Central European had money? Oh, no. Yeah, so it's rather a lot of that going on. Although it was funny, like, Slovaks were catching strays in that book. It's a great disservice to my beautiful culture and heritage. I was like, what did we do?

• 49:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, wow.

• 49:56Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, I'm like, okay.

• 49:58Speaker 07

  But who of the four, Pete four, right? Of the four that we've talked about, who is your absolute worst? If you had to pick, and you do.

• 50:07Eleanor Janega?

  I do have to pick. I think that we have to go with Vlad. I want it to be Richard just because I hate him so much, but I think that the kill count is just too high. So his kill count is larger than Richard, and I'm just doing this in terms of like, what are the absolute numbers here? It's where he's stat it out the goat in terms of like, random people that are killed. So I think that for him, it's just sheer numbers of people who are killed and how horribly it's done. So it's got to go, I think for me, we're going Vlad, Richard, Isabella, Pedro.

• 50:41Speaker 05

  See, for me, Pedro shouldn't even be on this list. If I die and someone doesn't cut out someone else's heart for me, I'm not interested. Like, 100% I'm on board.

• 50:52Speaker 07

  Thank God you don't have to date and that you're married, because that is your expectation.

• 50:56Speaker 05

  And this would be my first date chat, by the way. Would you like to hear about Pedro the cruel?

• 51:02Eleanor Janega?

  And yeah, would you say that if your wife was killed, how many hearts would you pull out?

• 51:06Speaker 05

  Could you meet that level of commitment? Yes or no?

• 51:09Eleanor Janega?

  Romance.

• 51:11Speaker 05

  And I would not get a second date. Who's worse for you?

• 51:16Speaker 07

  Oh, who's the worst? No, I agree with that order exactly. I think Vlad is.

• 51:21Speaker 05

  He just has to.

• 51:21Eleanor Janega?

  He has to. There's nothing you can do about it, I think. Yeah.

• 51:25Speaker 07

  Yeah, he is who he is.

• 51:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:27Speaker 07

  For a reason. Same for you or different?

• 51:30Speaker 05

  I think it has to be. It's between that or Richard. You've really convinced me about Richard.

• 51:33Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 51:33Eleanor Janega?

  He's a real, real scumbag.

• 51:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:36Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah.

• 51:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, rethinking that slightly. Let us know in the comments what you think. We want the rankings. We want your numbers out of 10. We want your.

• 51:47Speaker 07

  Money, no.

• 51:47Speaker 05

  No, we want your feelings about how romantic Pedro is and whether or not you agree with me. And you should agree with me because he's clearly amazing.

• 51:54Eleanor Janega?

  Girl.

• 51:56Speaker 05

  Oh my God, okay. If you want, you can leave us a five star review. Please do, because it helps people to find the podcast. And, you know, it's a nice little ego boost for us. We do enjoy to see the reviews.

• 52:06Speaker 07

  No, we do. I don't look at them.

• 52:07Speaker 05

  You never look at them?

• 52:08Speaker 07

  I don't look at them. You know I don't look at them. I'm too scared.

• 52:10Speaker 05

  I look at them, so.

• 52:11Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:12Eleanor Janega?

  Wow, she's brave.

• 52:13Speaker 07

  She's brave. I'm too scared.

• 52:14Eleanor Janega?

  You know, she's the type who would cut your heart out.

• 52:16Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 52:18Speaker 05

  Leave a five star review.

• 52:19Eleanor Janega?

  Be your own Pedro.

• 52:21Speaker 07

  That is coming from the same place. She's, if you leave bad reviews, she's taking your name and who knows? When she loses it one day, she's coming for you.

• 52:29Speaker 05

  I have the receipts.

• 52:30Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 52:30Speaker 05

  See you next time.

• 52:34Speaker 05

  Oh, God.

• 52:42Eleanor Janega?

  Thank you so much once again to the team at After Dark for having me on. I had an absolutely cracking time. And of course, thank you for listening to Gone Medieval. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries, including my recent film, Joan of Arc. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify, where you can leave us comments and suggestions, or wherever you get your podcasts, and tell all your friends and family that you've Gone Medieval. Until next time.

• 53:29Speaker 02

  In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glennie and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

• 53:44Speaker 03

  It's one of the first times really that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers. If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  In Our Time, listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Tea or coffee? Love a cup of tea.