Pod Insights Gastropod No Buzz Booze: The History and Science of Going Low- or No-Alcohol About this episode Dry January may be over, but, for many people, drinking less alcohol or none at all is an increasingly common choice year-round. And, unlike in the past, when dealcoholized options were few and far between—and had a well-deserved reputation for tasting bad—there’s now a booming market for non-alcoholic beers, wines, canned cocktails, and even spirits for the so-called "sober curious." But how do they get the booze out of our favorite tipples—and why is hard to keep the flavor? Gastropod is here to investigate! Join us for the history of breakfast beer, worker’s wine, and Welch’s Prohibition-era roots, as well as the science behind the “spinning cone” technology that revolutionized the world of non-alcoholic beverages. Plus: our hosts and a few brave volunteers put their taste buds on the line to find out which of these new drinks is worth swapping for the hard stuff, and which they wish they'd left on the shelf.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:02 Cynthia Graber? I have literally never had non-alcoholic beer before.
0:06 Speaker 01 I had some last night, so I'm much more of one.
0:08 Speaker 02 I'm Jeff Mayno, and yeah, this is actually the first night, to my knowledge, that I will be tasting non-alcoholic beer.
0:15 Speaker 03 Hi, I'm Rose Kranz Balden, and I don't have much of a relationship with non-alcoholic beverages. I've had an athletic beer before. I just wanted to sample the landscape, and I came away really unimpressed.
0:29 Cynthia Graber? We have beer wine, cocktails, and a booze that I think is gonna be pretty bad. Sorry, booze.
0:33 Nicola Twilley? All right, so we have some low expectations, which is always the way I like to start things.
0:39 Cynthia Graber? You know it's gonna be a fun night when Nikki and I are both pretty sure that things are gonna taste bad, and we rope our friends into the whole experience.
0:46 Nicola Twilley? It's the price you pay for being married to or friends with a Gastropod co-host. This is, of course, Gastropod, the podcast that looks at food through the lens of science and history. I'm Nicola Twilley.
0:57 Cynthia Graber? And I'm Cynthia Graber, and this episode was inspired by an email that came through the normal email route to our [email protected] email, and it was from a generous supporter of the show, but I must admit, he happens to also be a close friend.
1:10 Speaker 01 I'm Jeremy Rothman Shor. I live in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I have been listening to Gastropod since the very first episode. I still remember about the golden spoon.
1:18 Nicola Twilley? Jeremy is an OG fan, and I love it. But this episode, he's all business because he has a question that only Gastropod can answer.
1:27 Speaker 01 So, over the last year, I've developed a real taste for non-alcoholic beer, and it kinda got me wondering, how do they make it? Do they make it like regular beer, and then they take the alcohol out? Or do they have some way of brewing the taste of beer without alcohol? It kinda baffled me, and so that's what I wanted to know.
1:46 Nicola Twilley? When we heard this, we realized we had no clue how on earth they make non-alcoholic drinks, too, which is weird, because we've all just spent the past month hearing about them nonstop.
1:57 Speaker 05 Many people are choosing to skip alcohol this month as part of a growing health campaign called Dry January.
2:02 Cynthia Graber? But it turns out people aren't seeking out non-alcoholic beer and mocktails just in January. It's turning into a whole thing.
2:09 Speaker 03 And now to the growing movement of sober, curious living. It's a trend rising in popularity among younger generations who are choosing to reduce their alcohol consumption or just not drink at all.
2:20 Speaker 06 While non-alcoholic beer, wine, and cocktails make up a small fraction of the overall alcohol market, sales are rapidly rising.
2:28 Nicola Twilley? Just to put this in perspective, non-alcoholic booze still adds up to less than 1% of the sales of regular booze. But those sales are growing fast. This year, they're up 67% since 2022.
2:42 Cynthia Graber? And this is why we scoured the local wine and spirit stores and invited over some equally adventurous friends to have a booze-free binge.
2:50 Nicola Twilley? But you know us. This episode is not just about how this stuff tastes, although we've got that in spades. We also wanted to know who invented non-alcoholic booze, how they make it, and whether it can actually help people who struggle with drinking to cut back.
3:05 Cynthia Graber? Gastropod is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation for the Public Understanding of Science, Technology, and Economics, and by the Burroughs Wellcome Fund for our coverage of biomedical research. Gastropod is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with Eater.
3:20 Speaker 07 Support for the show comes from Google Gemini. You know that moment when curiosity strikes? You're exploring a new city with the family and a sculpture catches your daughter's eye. What is that? Who made it? With Gemini, you can snap a picture and get a fully interactive breakdown of its history, architecture, and even hidden secrets. Gemini is built for moments like that. Whether you're learning something new, solving a problem, or looking for your next favorite thing, Google Gemini is here to help. Download Gemini, Google's AI app, or visit gemini.google.com to learn more.
4:01 Speaker 05 I'm Anna Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Chloe Mal. We talk all about her taking on the top job at Vogue, finding her personal style, and her favorite lunch order in the iconic Condi Ness cafeteria. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday.
4:25 Nicola Twilley? You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers.
4:38 Cynthia Graber? To understand how to get alcohol out of booze, it helps to understand how it got there in the first place.
4:44 Speaker 03 Well, it's a pretty natural process, really.
4:46 Speaker 05 Yeah, we have yeast to thank for that.
4:49 Cynthia Graber? Dana Garvis is the owner and senior beer chemist at Oregon Brew Lab, which does quality control for beverage companies. And Wes Pearson is a senior research scientist at the Australian Wine Research Institute.
5:00 Speaker 03 Yeast are there everywhere, all over, all sorts of things. And so really you can put grapes in a bucket and come back in two weeks and there'll be wine.
5:07 Cynthia Graber? We've talked about this process before on the show. Yeast eat the sugars and they turn that into ethanol or alcohol and carbon dioxide.
5:14 Speaker 05 And yeast does produce a bunch of other things too, not just alcohol and CO2.
5:20 Cynthia Graber? Alcohol, specifically ethanol and fizz, AKA carbon dioxide, those are the two big ones. But like Dana says, there's a bunch of other, what scientists call fermentation products.
5:32 Speaker 03 So those are a lot of the aromas and flavors that we get in wine.
5:35 Speaker 05 I won't be able to name all like 300 compounds, but a lot of the ones that we can end up tasting in the end are like acetaldehyde, which is a green apple, kind of like a Jolly Rancher green apple flavor. Another one is diacetyl, which creates kind of that movie popcorn buttery flavor. But then we have some really excellent flavors like esters, some fruity compounds that we might want depending on the beer style.
6:02 Cynthia Graber? Those all sound delicious, but the ethanol that yeast creates isn't just a nice thing to have that makes us feel a little buzzed, a little floaty, maybe a little giggly. It actually changes the sensory experience of the drink, too.
6:13 Speaker 03 Ethanol in itself is a pretty unique compound, like spirits, vodka, for instance, you put in your mouth, it's quite warming. It's very, you know, they would call even hot, it might burn.
6:23 Speaker 05 It kind of gives you a fuller mouth feel. It gives the impression of kind of a More well-rounded or heavier feeling, texture.
6:33 Nicola Twilley? That fuller mouthfeel, the way ethanol makes a drink more viscous, that also contributes to that slight drying effect you get on the inside of your mouth when you drink. It's a little astringent.
6:44 Cynthia Graber? And then it turns out that ethanol also influences how you experience the flavor notes that are in your wine or spirit or beer, too.
6:51 Speaker 05 There are a lot of ways that ethanol interacts with all of the different compounds in beer. It does have a tendency to hang on to sweetness and bitterness.
7:01 Speaker 03 It has a pretty unique set of characteristics that are not easy to replicate.
7:06 Nicola Twilley? Basically ethanol is great and we've been enjoying ethanol-based drinks for most of human history. But of course, you can't drink it all the time.
7:15 Cynthia Graber? And so unsurprisingly, there are plenty of drinks that we humans have been enjoying since time immemorial that have no alcohol. There's always water, but then we've been enjoying tea and coffee and hot chocolate and fruit juice. Lots of good stuff.
7:27 Nicola Twilley? There's also long been a thriving appetite for lower alcohol versions of alcoholic drinks. Small beer was popular from the Middle Ages as something adults and kids alike could drink morning, noon, and night. Ben Franklin mentions it as a breakfast drink in his autobiography. It only had 2% alcohol or less compared to normal beer, which is more in the four and up range.
7:51 Cynthia Graber? There was a lower alcohol version of wine that's been around for thousands of years that the ancient Romans called workers' wine.
7:57 Nicola Twilley? These would have been slightly intoxicated workers because this lower alcohol wine relative, it's called picat often these days. It's still between 5 and 9% alcohol. But that's definitely lower than the 12 to 14% average of regular wine.
8:13 Cynthia Graber? Modern low or no alcohol wine got its start about 150 years ago. My favorite story about this is the story of Welch's grape juice. The history there is that in 1869, a guy from New Jersey, who was both a dentist and a prohibitionist, created pasteurized, unfermented, conquered grape juice as a non-alcoholic quote wine for communion at his Methodist church. It was marketed as Dr. Welch's Unfermented Wine for more than 20
8:39 Speaker 03 I mean, there's been products that are, say, juice-based that have been produced for many years. They're packaged like wine. All the labeling looks like wine. It might be sparkling. Put the sparkling cork in it with a cage on the top. Looks like champagne or sparkling wine.
8:54 Cynthia Graber? The golden oldie here is Martinelli's. Their sparkling, non-alcoholic apple cider is the champagne of kids everywhere, and it's been around since the 1860s, too.
9:05 Speaker 03 There's been lots of products like that over many years that are kind of pseudo wines, but they're not actually wine. They're juice-based.
9:11 Cynthia Graber? But then in Germany, there was a winemaker named Carl Jung, no relation to the famous Swiss father of psychoanalysis. At the end of the 1800s, he lowered the alcohol in their riesling because some of their customers wanted to try their version of Dry January, and his family's company has been making this low or no alcohol version ever since.
9:29 Nicola Twilley? All of these low or no alcohol alternatives really got going because of the temperance movement, which started out in the 1800s encouraging moderation in alcohol consumption. Then it picked up steam as the century wore on, and by the 1900s, the goal was just to make everyone teetotal.
9:47 Cynthia Graber? We've talked about prohibition a lot on the show. There were a bunch of different prohibitions around the world, but the most important and influential one was in the US between 1920 and 1933. The government prohibited the production, importation, transportation, and sale of alcoholic beverages.
10:02 Nicola Twilley? The law is the law, but people obviously still drank in secret. Still, that is when zero alcohol beers and wines took off.
10:10 Cynthia Graber? So when it comes to beer, prohibition-era brewers copied what had been going on for centuries, making small beers. The important thing about beer is that you have to first free up the sugar in the starchy grain. Fruit juice, like grape juice, is already super sugary, but to get at the sugar in grains like barley, you soak them in warm or hot water to make what's called a mash. Then the yeast can eat the sugars in the water from the mash and do its thing.
10:32 Nicola Twilley? The result is beer. Hooray. But for small beer, what people would do is take that first batch of booze out and use the barley mash all over again, like reusing a teabag for a second or even a third cup. The second round's going to be much more diluted, way less sugars available.
10:50 Speaker 05 And so you're going to get a lower fermentation. So I know that a lot of breweries during prohibition would do dilutions or second runnings in order to get low alcohol or no alcohol production.
11:06 Cynthia Graber? Another process beer makers have been using for centuries is making their mash at colder temperatures. To use that same teabag analogy, it's like brewing tea in cold water and getting a weaker brew.
11:16 Speaker 05 And so that's one that's been done for a really long time. And I think a lot of European non-alcoholic producers still use a cold ferment or will dilute backwards with water to meet the desired ABV.
11:29 Nicola Twilley? All of these processes produce lower alcohol beer. But Dana told us it doesn't taste as good. You get a lot of off flavors and you don't get all the good flavors you want. The result is watery and honestly, kind of bad.
11:43 Cynthia Graber? For wine, people hijacked the process of distillation. To make a spirit, you start with a fermented mush of fruits or grains or whatever, but it's not really strong yet. The good news is ethanol evaporates at a lower temperature than water. So you can boil the alcohol off, capture it and let it turn into a liquid again. And then you basically have a spirit. But you could do the same process with wine. Boil it, wait for the alcohol to evaporate, but then toss the alcohol out, keep the rest of the wine.
12:08 Nicola Twilley? The major problem here is that this process involves boiling your wine, which can affect the delicate nose on a fine Pinot Noir, for example. It makes it taste cooked.
12:19 Speaker 03 A good comparison is if, if you've ever made jam, right? So we've got fresh strawberries or raspberries. You get them in your saucepan and you're adding heat and stirring them. You're removing water from that solution. You're concentrating it up, but you can smell that. We call it cooked, but it's sugars that are in that fruit being concentrated, reducing down. And my art reaction is causing some of those caramelization maybe of those flavors. And so we call that a cooked character.
12:46 Cynthia Graber? Jam is delicious on toast, but nobody wants their wine to taste like liquid jam. Not to sound like a snob, but those original cooked low or no alcohol wines sound like they were not good wine.
12:57 Nicola Twilley? Nonetheless, for a long time, this was the state of Of the art in low or no alcohol booze. As recently as the 1970s, a Texas oil man working in the Middle East was reduced to boiling his beer to create a zero alcohol beer called Texas Select to comply with local Islamic prohibitions. And don't even get me started on O'Doyle's, which was introduced in 1990 and was pretty much the only non-alcoholic beer in town when I was a kid. It tasted like you'd squeezed out a rag used for cleaning the bar.
13:29 Cynthia Graber? Yum.
13:29 Nicola Twilley? But Wes says the beer was good compared to the early wines.
13:32 Speaker 03 Those first products that that we ever saw, they were pretty, I don't want to say shocking, but they were, they didn't quite resemble wine at all.
13:41 Nicola Twilley? Wes is trying to be diplomatic, but fortunately, we have made some progress.
13:45 Speaker 05 I think that over the last few decades, we've actually made huge strides in science to recreate non-alcoholic beverages in the image of their original form.
14:00 Nicola Twilley? These strides that Dana is referring to, they're the result of some groovy new technologies.
14:05 Speaker 03 So the first one, and it's probably been around the longest, would be called reverse osmosis. That's a membrane. You're passing wine through a membrane.
14:14 Nicola Twilley? Reverse osmosis is a technology that uses pressure and a membrane to push liquid through the membrane, and then some stuff gets left behind the membrane. It's used a lot for making seawater into fresh drinking water, but you can also use it to push out the alcohol from booze.
14:27 Speaker 05 But what this does is it strips the beer of a lot of flavors, but it's affordable.
14:32 Speaker 03 In wine, it tends to be used more for alcohol adjustments and not complete de-alcoholization.
14:39 Nicola Twilley? Wine has more alcohol in it than beer at the start, so there's just more left when you've pushed it through the membrane. Like Wes says, this meant that reverse osmosis was mostly used to take out just a percentage or two of alcohol in wine. And it was pretty widely used in California until recently because wines with more than 14% alcohol used to be taxed at a higher rate. And California grapes get so much sunshine and make so much sugar that they routinely clock in at closer to 16%.
15:09 Cynthia Graber? People say that as much as A quarter to half of all of California wines were tweaked to get slightly lower alcohol levels before the tax rules changed in 2018. Reverse osmosis is one way to do this, but it was still an art because it would concentrate the wine and strip out some of the flavors. So even removing a couple of percentage points of alcohol, it wasn't like a straightforward process. They had to tweak the final product to make it taste like they wanted.
15:32 Nicola Twilley? To get even lower alcohol wine, people used something called vacuum distillation. So this is like boiling the wine, but, big but, because you're doing it under a vacuum, the alcohol boils off at a lower temperature, so you get less of the jam effect.
15:49 Cynthia Graber? Carl Jung actually invented the first version of this for wine in the late 1800s. He read about expeditions to the Himalayas and learned that water boiled at a lower temperature at higher altitudes and higher pressure, which gave him the idea. He got a patent for it in 1907.
16:03 Nicola Twilley? But like we said, this stuff still didn't taste super great. Really, heating wine at all kind of ruins it.
16:10 Cynthia Graber? But a better, new, and improved vacuum distillation technology that could help make a new and improved low or no alcohol beer or wine would eventually be invented and transform the industry. That story coming up after the break.
16:24 Speaker 05 Are you tired of hearing about business, tech, and finance from the bros? We are the Tiger Sisters, a top business podcast with the Vox Media Podcast Network. Tiger Sisters releases every Monday, and we decode money, power, and love. And who doesn't love all those things? We are the internet's Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. Tune in every Monday for late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Check out Tiger Sisters on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Tiger fam.
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17:37 Speaker 01 We're just days away from the midterm elections, which means I only really have one question.
17:44 Speaker 03 Hi, Samika, I'm Jessica.
17:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I'm Al. We're from the Culinary Union.
17:48 Speaker 01 How are the issues that we've been tracking all year actually playing out on the ground?
17:54 Speaker 03 The reason why we're out here, we're actually out here canvassing for Aaron Ford and Mr. Horstberg. I'm not sure if you've heard of them. Oh, yeah, I'm voting for them.
18:03 Speaker 01 A few weeks ago, I headed west to Nevada, where the entire midterms can basically be summed up in just three words: the Trump slump.
18:13 Speaker 03 Even with our great union jobs that we had, we struggled. That never happened before. And it's because of these politicians, what they're doing to us. The Trump slump.
18:26 Speaker 01 This week on America Actually, midterms canvassing with the Las Vegas Culinary Union.
18:31 Speaker 03 How many more days until Election Day?
18:34 Speaker 01 Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
18:40 Speaker 03 So, the original idea, it was developed by the CSIRO in the 1960s. So, that's Australia's National Science Organisation.
18:47 Nicola Twilley? Seatbelts on, folks. It is time to meet the spinning cone. A breakthrough in non-alcoholic booze-making that was originally invented to do something else altogether.
18:57 Cynthia Graber? In the 1960s, a scientist at CSIRO developed a new vacuum distillation technology. He wanted to help companies capture delicate fruit aromas that were lost in concentrating fruit juice. In particular, he focused on the very delicious passion fruit.
19:11 Nicola Twilley? Normally, if you just boil fruit juice to evaporate the water and make it concentrate, a lot of the fruit flavors also evaporate off into the steam. But this new vacuum distillation contraption promised to prevent those flavors from getting lost in the process.
19:26 Cynthia Graber? It ended up not being used for passion fruit juice, but it had a lot of other practical applications.
19:31 Speaker 03 It's used in freeze-dried coffee. If you've had iced tea, you're probably made from one of these machines. It's really good at removing flavor, allowing you to do something with the product and then to put it back in. So, it's pretty. It's a pretty clever machine.
19:44 Cynthia Graber? The person who bought the patent also noticed that it was pretty good at taking alcohol out of wine, but it took a while before there was much of an interest in using it for that, other than, as we said, adjusting alcohol levels in California wine. But in the past decade or so, interest has picked up.
19:58 Nicola Twilley? So how exactly does this clever machine work? How does it get the alcohol out of booze while maybe also saving the flavors?
20:07 Speaker 03 Sure. Okay, so your wine gets put in at the top. You've got it, there's a cylinder and it's filled with, the best way to describe it is plates. It's plates stacked on top of one another. And every second plate spins at a high rotation. The wine is pushed through under a strong vacuum in this cone.
20:29 Cynthia Graber? Basically, with all those plates spinning in a column in the cone, the wine spreads out into a super thin liquid film that's coating those plates. Like we said, the vacuum pressure means ethanol evaporates at a lower temperature than usual. And then the thin film means the whole thing happens really quickly. So it doesn't cook as hot or for as long.
20:46 Speaker 03 While this is happening, steam is being injected at the bottom of the cone and is rising up through the cone. Now, as that steam rises up, that is what extracts your ethanol. And, you know, there's other things that come along with that, you know, that have similar distillation points that come out with the ethanol at the same temperature. And they all come out through the top of the cone and the wine falls to the bottom.
21:13 Nicola Twilley? And you're good to go.
21:15 Cynthia Graber? Well, not necessarily. You listeners probably won't be surprised to hear that things weren't quite that easy. Let's start with beer. Non-alcoholic beer makers were quick to pick up this new technology.
21:24 Speaker 03 And that's the main one. That's the one that Athletic uses. Or, you know, if they were to come out and actually talk about what they do, I'm sure this is the one they do. They keep that very close to the chest.
21:36 Nicola Twilley? Athletic is one of the biggest and most popular non-alcoholic craft beer companies in the US. But Dana told us one of the things that does get lost in the spinning cone process is the fizz.
21:46 Speaker 03 We had to get rid of
21:48 Nicola Twilley? The CO2 that the yeast produced in order to put it through this machine. And now we have to add it back in. But that's not the only issue. Alcohol is a preservative. It keeps your beer from going bad. So brewers have to make the beer a little more acidic. And so not only do we have to add CO2, which luckily does lower the pH of beer, but not enough. We do still need to add in certain acids. So you'll see a lot of non-alcoholic beers have like citric acid or lactic acid as a way to lower that pH and protect it. This is a really interesting issue that all non-alcoholic booze makers base. Alcohol is such a great preservative that when you take it out, you have to deal with microbe issues you never even had to think about before. Drink? Yes, please.
22:32 Nicola Twilley? But the way they tweak the beer to adjust it to make it more acidic, well, you shouldn't notice it when you sip it. Because non-alcoholic beer is so, we'll say alkaline or more alkaline, more basic. If it's done right, it will never taste sour. It's just going to give you a little extra mouth feel. Which is good because like we said, ethanol has a lot of mouth feel and you've just lost all of that. Another way the beer gets tweaked has to do with hops. We've talked about this in the past. Hops are a plant and adding hops to beer both adds a bunch of kind of bitter notes that people tend to like and also helps preserve the beer. But you can't add as many hops to non-alcoholic beer.
23:12 Nicola Twilley? It's just that very strong bitter flavors with non-alcoholic composition creates sort of just a really unpleasant bitterness that's more on the like a stringency side. And so hop loads are lowered. But then, at least for an IPA or something that's supposed to taste hoppy, that hoppy flavor is often added back just as a flavoring. Yeah, some breweries will add terpenes.
23:39 Speaker 05 Hop-drive terpenes to get those flavors in.
23:42 Cynthia Graber? Hops are kind of an obvious one, but there are other flavors that beer makers want to add in. Wes mentioned that when wine or beer goes through the vacuum distillation process, other chemical compounds that have a similar boiling point to ethanol also evaporate off. Sometimes beer makers can add some of those chemical compounds, those flavors, back in.
24:00 Nicola Twilley? But also, it's not just about replacing missing flavors. Think about it. Craft brewers already throw in pretty much anything and everything into their brews to create exciting beers, things like fruit, chocolate, vanilla beans, mint, you name it. But guess what? Non-alcoholic brewers can add any and all of those things to help mask missing or underwhelming flavors in theirs.
24:24 Cynthia Graber? For example, sours are a kind of beer that are often made with wild yeast, and they tend to be more acidic, more sour than other kinds of beer. And so, regular brewers might add fruit to complement the beer because it already has a tart, almost fruity note. This is a great tool for non-alcoholic brewers, too.
24:39 Speaker 05 You can fruit sours pretty easily, and fruit is an excellent way to hide that there's no alcohol in your beverage. It will give you a bigger mouth feel, it'll give you another hero flavor to sort of focus on. Oh, I love raspberries. You know, you care less about what's going on if you love raspberries.
24:59 Nicola Twilley? This idea of beer styles that work particularly well as non-alcoholic versions is intriguing. I mean, it makes sense that it's easier to remove alcohol from a beer that already has a lot else going on.
25:11 Speaker 05 A porter, a stout, these are beers that have a lot of complexity and flavor so that you're maybe not missing... It's harder to pick up those flavors that you're missing or lacking.
25:22 Cynthia Graber? Dana told us that it's kind of counterintuitive, but the smaller craft producers have a leg up on big companies here because they can play with whatever they want, and they're not trying to recreate a beloved, existing product.
25:33 Speaker 05 Whereas if you're looking at, say, a Heineken Double Zero.
25:39 Speaker 05 They have an obligation to make Double Zero taste exactly like the other Heineken, the Heineken in a green bottle with the 4% alcohol, right? And so they have a harder task. They have to match while taking stuff out and putting stuff in. They have to match this flavor. It's very, very difficult. It takes a huge group of scientists, which Heineken does have. But when your brewery isn't trying to recreate something, it gets a blank canvas to start from.
26:13 Cynthia Graber? So moment of truth, let's taste some of these canvases. I had purchased a six pack of Athletic's Bit, which is their non-alcoholic take on a Belgian White.
26:23 Speaker 03 The smell is vegetal. I feel like I just put my nose into a garden gone bad.
26:30 Cynthia Graber? This is my, hopefully not former, friend Rose Kranz, who came around to join Jeff and me in our non-alcoholic adventures.
26:38 Speaker 03 It has a little bit of orange and citrus, like a Belgian wants to. But in defense of the nation of Belgium, this is nothing I want to drink again.
26:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, the smell is extraordinary. It smells like V8. It smells like a tomato juice is what it smells like. It's very strange. It's not at all what I was expecting. It's amazing, actually.
26:55 Cynthia Graber? The face.
26:56 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't choose to drink this outside of a gastropod episode.
27:01 Cynthia Graber? I was doing my tasting with my spouse, Tim, and with our friend Jeremy, who wrote in with the original question. We tried the Athletic Wit as well, and we didn't hate it as much as you all did, Nikki, but we didn't love it. We did get to do a fun experiment where I bought a Notch Pilsner and then the exact same Notch Pilsner but without alcohol, and Tim set up a blind tasting for Jeremy and me.
27:25 Speaker 02 Does that sound non-alcoholic to you?
27:28 Cynthia Graber? It sounds bubbly.
27:29 Speaker 02 All right, we are ready. We have two glasses for each of you to taste. Same glass, same style of beer.
27:39 Speaker 01 I'm pretty sure that this is a non-alcoholic one. It smells the same, but it's like that sense of like, there's something missing in it that I think of at the moment I drink something alcoholic.
27:50 Cynthia Graber? I also got it right. The nose was immediately a little off, a little sweeter. But in general, it was really close to the original, just a little maybe kind of watery. It was respectable.
28:00 Speaker 01 The notch does linger better. Yeah, I still notice the absence, but it lingers in a way that the Athletic Belgian just does not.
28:08 Cynthia Graber? Athletic is the really famous one, but I have to say, I think the notch is a better version of the beer than the Athletic is.
28:15 Nicola Twilley? Here in Los Angeles, we hated all our beers. But as it turns out, that was the evening's high point because when we moved on to wine, that's when things really went tits up.
28:25 Cynthia Graber? To be honest, we were kind of expecting things to not be so great based on what Wes told us. We already said that some compounds get lost with the ethanol, but it turns out that when it comes to wine, well, nearly all the important flavor compounds get lost.
28:38 Nicola Twilley? One of the reasons for this is that, like we said, there's just more alcohol in wine as a general rule. And so you have to cook it for longer to get all the booze out, and so you lose more flavor, even in the fancy spinning cone setup.
28:50 Speaker 03 We haven't hacked that one yet. So part of some of the work that we do, some of the research that we're doing is trying to then remove that flavor that has come into the ethanol, remove that from the ethanol, be able to put it back in the wine.
29:02 Nicola Twilley? This is a big challenge. Wes told us that the particular flavor notes that make a riesling taste like a riesling. Right now, they all evaporate alongside the booze.
29:13 Speaker 03 They are essential to that. You know, if we're trying to make a product that resembles a riesling, so that consumer can look at this bottle and go, yeah, that's a riesling. They open it up and they pour it in their glass and it smells and tastes like riesling, just without the ethanol. That's going to be an important step for us to really kind of crack the code, getting those flavors back in there.
29:33 Cynthia Graber? Not all of the flavor notes come out in the distillation. Wes told us that one particular New Zealand superstar is a little better positioned to become non-alcoholic.
29:41 Speaker 03 Some of the thiol compounds in Sauvignon Blanc, so the compounds that make Sauvignon Blanc smell grassy or like grapefruit or passion fruit, they do stay in the original wine, which is a reason why we see Sauvignon Blanc often used as a base. For dealkoholized wine, it's kind of like one of the starting points.
30:01 Nicola Twilley? That said, that dealkoholized base, even in Sauvignon Blanc, Wes told us he'd be able to tell it wasn't real wine quite easily.
30:09 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah. Absolutely. In fact, it's pretty, you know, I used the word shocking earlier in our chat. And when the dealkoholized wine comes off the spinning cone, what the product tastes like.
30:24 Nicola Twilley? Picture Wes shaking his head a little mournfully here because think of what you've done to your wine.
30:29 Speaker 03 So you've removed all the ethanol and you've concentrated the product by 30%. So all of the acids are now much more powerful. You've got more acid, you've got your pH is lower and you don't have any flavor left. And so when it comes off the spinning cone, it is not particularly pleasant. So when you compare that to a traditional wine, yeah, it's hard to believe that they are actually the same thing at one point. Now then the work begins, right, to try to build that product back up to make it look like the original product.
30:59 Nicola Twilley? Brewers obviously have to do this too. Like Dana said, they add flavor back in. But it's really a more uphill challenge with wine.
31:07 Speaker 03 Beer has, you've got more tools in the toolbox, right? Wine, it's grapes. That's it.
31:14 Cynthia Graber? Yes, and kind of no. First, of course, there's yeast. And Wes told us that winemakers are playing around with selecting the kinds of yeast that will fart out more of the wine flavors they want. Maybe even flavors that won't disappear along with the ethanol.
31:26 Nicola Twilley? And then even when it comes to the grapes, there's stuff winemakers can do. There's varieties like Sauvignon Blanc that have flavors that survive the spinning cone. And you can change how you grow your grapes to reduce the sugar levels in them and thus the starting level of alcohol in the wine. That all can help.
31:43 Cynthia Graber? Another thing winemakers can play with, and this is something most people don't know. There are actually dozens of official ingredients that winemakers can add in minute amounts to tweak their final product. So non-alcoholic winemakers are playing with all of those.
31:57 Speaker 03 In Australia here, we tend to see more using.
31:59 Speaker 06 Like wine permissible additives, gum arabics, adding tannin, trying to build some of that texture into the non-alcoholic wines.
32:08 Cynthia Graber? Some winemakers add extra sugar to add some of the missing body and mouth feel that you lose when you take out ethanol. Sparkling winemakers have a slightly easier go of it because the carbonation helps with that, too. Still, it's not simple. We asked Wes if he's ever had an alcoholic and a non-alcoholic wine side by side where he couldn't tell the difference.
32:28 Speaker 06 Now, that would be the holy grail, really, would be to have one that you can't pick. No, we're not there yet. We're working on it.
32:34 Cynthia Graber? That said, even in the past five years, Wes told us he's noticed a significant improvement.
32:39 Speaker 06 I still don't think they're at a point where people are going to go, yeah, it tastes exactly like wine. It's not. That's not there yet. But there's certainly a few sparkling wine examples that are pretty good. You'd happily have a glass.
32:51 Cynthia Graber? So what do these new and improved non-alcoholic wines taste like? Would we happily have a glass? That's coming up after the break.
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33:45 Cynthia Graber? Jeremy, Tim, and I started our non-alcoholic wine tasting with a Riesling. I bought it because I knew that Riesling was one of the first non-alcoholic wines ever from the 1800s.
33:54 Speaker 02 This is the Dr. Lowe Riesling, alcohol-removed Riesling.
34:01 Nicola Twilley? Oh, actually, it has a, it has a rieslingness. It smells like wine, but it tastes like grape juice.
34:08 Speaker 02 Oh, dear. Yeah, poor maligned riesling. Riesling already has such a terrible reputation as being just kind of sweet and flat, which is totally undeserved when you get a good riesling. But this is kind of a roller rink birthday party grape juice for me.
34:24 Cynthia Graber? We'd heard that red wines were supposed to be even harder to make taste good and balanced. And so of course I had to buy a red to see how bad it would actually be.
34:33 Nicola Twilley? Okay, so here, shall we try the red? I'm now even more nervous about this.
34:37 Speaker 02 Oh, oh. Yeah, I think they tried to give it a little, something that's supposed to be like a tannin that has a bit of this puckery, dry thing, but it simply just takes bad juice and makes it a little off.
34:54 Cynthia Graber? It tasted a little like cough syrup, but without the alcohol.
34:57 Nicola Twilley? Which really raises the question, why? Meanwhile, in LA, I set myself the ultimate challenge here with a New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc head to head. We started with the non-alcoholic one. Wes had said it was one of the better varieties to work with, but mm.
35:14 Speaker 03 I'm literally frowning because of how depressing this is. It's slightly flavored water. It does not taste like Sauvignon Blanc. It does taste like someone winked at a lemon and then poured some water in a glass and chilled it down. There are no tannins, there's no structure. It's flat in the same way that water is flat. It is yellow.
35:37 Cynthia Graber? Of course, with a sales pitch like that, you listeners know that Nikki had to try it, too.
35:41 Nicola Twilley? What the actual, like selling that as a Sauvignon Blanc. Rosecrans was depressed. I just felt cheated. We then made ourselves even sadder by having a sip of the real deal alongside it. I mean, part of the problem is like, it's how it feels in your mouth.
35:59 Speaker 03 Yeah, because here, this is real wine we're drinking now. This is the Kim Crawford Sauvignon Blanc.
36:05 Speaker 03 You can feel it sort of grip the inside of your mouth. It's not cloying, it's just that there's traction.
36:10 Cynthia Graber? Okay, so far, no winners. But there are some other options out there these days. Like we said, there's a long history of drinks made with fruit that are packaged in a pretty bottle and look like wine, like, say, Martinelli sparkling cider. And now there are a lot more of them, and they're more creative with the whole list of interesting ingredients, and they're sold like wine, but they're not wine.
36:29 Nicola Twilley? I had grabbed one of these wine-like non-wines to add to the party. It's literally called Non.
36:35 Speaker 02 All right, this is a salted raspberry and chamomile Non wine. Non is the name of the of the brand. It's made in Australia.
36:45 Speaker 03 Fizzy, raspberry-colored.
36:49 Speaker 03 Looks like a nice sparkling wine. Nothing to say that this is not a handsome glass of sparkling rosé.
36:56 Nicola Twilley? The smell is a little, I mean, you have to like raspberry. And chamomile. Oh, but it's actually quite nice. Yeah.
37:06 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's not unpleasant at all. This is the best thing that we've had all night.
37:10 Speaker 02 Okay, yeah, so I would definitely tap out of this pretty quickly.
37:15 Speaker 02 What I would say in the favor of this, though, is that, yeah, it's just trying to be itself.
37:18 Nicola Twilley? In a way, the Non was just a grown-up, complicated seltzer, which, you know, I like seltzer, and I happily drink it at social events when I don't want alcohol.
37:28 Cynthia Graber? But seltzer wasn't enough for Lisa King. She's a businesswoman in New Zealand, and she recently founded a company called Free AF. They make little cans of non-alcoholic cocktails.
37:37 Speaker 06 Particularly here in New Zealand, we have a super-heavy drinking culture. And going out and telling people that you're not drinking was just so awkward. And every time, you know, people would be like, why, what's wrong with you? Like, you know, are you pregnant? Are you sick? And then, you know, they would keep encouraging me to drink, even though I said I wasn't drinking.
37:59 Nicola Twilley? And Lisa's local bars were sadly not plentifully stocked with interesting seltzers or craft mocktails.
38:05 Speaker 06 When you went out, it was very much your soft drinks and juice. And it was really sugary. You know, you never felt like you could sit down and have a few of them. And it made me feel... Just like left out because they were like kids drinks. It felt like you were relegated to the kids table, you know, with your little orange juice, your little Coke. And everyone else is having these beautiful drinks, you know, with beautiful ice and garnish and beautiful glasses and having a really good time.
38:35 Cynthia Graber? And so just a few years ago, Lisa started her company. Her goal was to make her favorite drink a gin and tonic, but without the booze. But so she didn't plan on starting with gin and trying to get the booze out.
38:45 Speaker 06 Which just seemed really difficult and also didn't really make sense. It's like, why do you want to start with alcohol if you want to take it out? And so I thought, why not start with actually what are the flavors that we want to build? And using that natural flavor technology to get those different layers and the complexity that you get in a really good cocktail.
39:07 Cynthia Graber? Lisa worked with a flavor company to formulate her recipe to taste like a cucumbery G and T. But even when she had the taste right, it didn't feel right in her mouth.
39:17 Speaker 06 And it's that little burn that you get from, you know, when you drink a spirit and from alcohol. It's the aftertaste. It's that mouth feel and texture and depth that was just missing from so many of the other things that I was tasting. And so we went and found this natural botanical and we called it Afterglow. And it gives you this little burn at the back of your throat when you're drinking our drinks. And so you feel like you're having alcohol.
39:45 Cynthia Graber? The exact formulation is a company secret, but on the website, it says that it's a product of a capsicum, which is a pepper. And so you know, it's somehow a version of capsaicin, the thing that makes hot peppers hot. Lisa started with a non-alcoholic G and T, but she's now got a whole line of alcohol-free canned cocktails. There's her version of an aperol spritz and a paloma and more. And she says the Afterglow really makes it feel like a cocktail.
40:10 Speaker 06 We've definitely had people who've had, you know, AF and they're like, I'm just, are you sure there's no alcohol in this?
40:17 Cynthia Graber? At our Somerville non-alcoholic bash, we decided to try a real gin and tonic against Lisa's. Tim mixed his version up.
40:25 Cynthia Graber? Take just a little bit of lime.
40:33 Cynthia Graber? We also did a side by side. Ours was blind for me and Rosecrans, and then Jeff forgot which was which by the time he came to taste it. So it was a real test.
40:42 Speaker 03 So I've been presented with a handsome glass, a massive ice cube, and a clear liquid. I'm going to give it a smell. It smells like a floral gin. It's very cold to the touch. And here goes a taste. That is not a gin and tonic.
41:04 Speaker 02 If you gave this to me, I would not think it was a gin and tonic, literally at all. It's cucumber water. I mean, sure, it's refreshing.
41:12 Cynthia Graber? None of us had any trouble determining which was the alcoholic version.
41:17 Nicola Twilley? Yeah, this is the G and T. It's an actual gin and tonic.
41:20 Speaker 03 What percentage are you confident?
41:22 Nicola Twilley? Oh, I mean, I would swear on my life.
41:24 Cynthia Graber? Fortunately, I was correct. We didn't do it blind. We knew we'd started with the real one. Has that kind of very typical London gin note to it, the juniper, has like the roundness of the alcohol.
41:35 Speaker 01 That is a great gin tonic. I would happily come to your bar anytime.
41:40 Cynthia Graber? You happy with your gin and tonic, Tim?
41:41 Speaker 02 It's terrific, yeah. You know, sometimes a lemon, sometimes a lime, but great gin, nice tonic, can't be beat.
41:49 Cynthia Graber? And then we tried the AF version. It did have a little burn. After a few sips, my chest kind of warmed up the way it does when I start sipping a cocktail, but like a weak cocktail at a not particularly fancy bar.
42:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, if you had not great tonic and not great gin and you let a bunch of ice cubes melt in it, this is kind of where I think you might arrive.
42:09 Speaker 01 I feel like it's relying on the cucumber to carry the first half of it, right, to like make you feel like you're drinking something. But that's something like, I could see like if you go out to a bar with friends, like the person who's getting this still feels like they're drinking something, right? It's maybe not the best gin and tonic that they've ever had, but it's still festive and cucumbery and like, you can feel like you're having a good time with everyone else drinking their drinks.
42:32 Cynthia Graber? And that's part of the reason that people are drinking them these days. They want to go out with their friends. They want to have a good time, but maybe they don't like Like how they feel afterwards if they're drinking, or maybe they're concerned about the fact that the World Health Organization recently called any amount of alcohol a carcinogen.
42:46 Nicola Twilley? So the question is, do these kinds of drinks help people who want to cut down, cut down? It seems like they should, but do they?
42:54 Cynthia Graber? Molly Bowdring is at the Stanford Prevention Center, and she's studying this. She's researching the public health impact of non-alcoholic beverages. And she told us that the way these drinks are marketed is really interesting. They're sometimes described as a substitute for alcohol, but sometimes it's just like an addition, another way to drink an alcohol-ish thing at places where you normally wouldn't, like at the gym or in a car.
43:15 Speaker 06 I actually saw a ad on Amazon for a non-alcoholic beer variety pack that said something along the lines of, whether you're pregnant, can't drink, won't drink, or need to operate heavy machinery, this pack is for you. So really sort of saying anytime, anywhere is fine.
43:31 Cynthia Graber? Molly told us that from a public health perspective, the goal of these things for her would be that they help people who are recovering from problem drinking, that it helps keep them away from alcohol.
43:40 Nicola Twilley? But she says we can't yet say that that's the case.
43:43 Speaker 06 Yeah, so we don't have a lot of data on whether these drinks are actually helpful for people who are recovering from alcohol use disorder or trying to reduce their use. Clinically, I've seen a fair amount of people use them in an attempt to support their moderation or abstinence goals, and I've seen varying degrees of success. So for people who have found them to be successful, they often will report things like, it was helpful to have a non-alcoholic beverage in my hand when I was socializing with people who were drinking, and I didn't feel like I had to call attention to the fact that I was no longer consuming alcohol. On the other hand, for folks who have shared with me that they've had trouble using non-alcoholic beverages to support their reduced alcohol consumption, they've described that having that similar taste
44:29 Speaker 06 Leads to the desire for the full strength alcohol to get intoxicated.
44:34 Nicola Twilley? So anecdotally, it seems as though the evidence is mixed, but Molly is trying to fill these gaps with actual data as we speak.
44:41 Speaker 06 So I'm starting a study now that involves giving people breathalyzers and asking them questions multiple times throughout the day to track their non-alcoholic beverage use and alcohol use. To be able to start to map out on days when people consume non-alcoholic beverages, do they end up consuming more or less alcohol than they otherwise would?
45:02 Nicola Twilley? We'll see what she comes up with. And then another important question from a public health perspective is the impact these drinks will have on underage drinking. Will they increase it, decrease it?
45:11 Speaker 06 We don't have a ton of great data on whether people under 21 are consuming them, at least in the US. But there is some data outside of the US, particularly in Asia, and some studies in Japan specifically that have shown that even people as young as elementary school age have consumed non-alcoholic beverages. And when we think about the potential impact of this, there's some concern because it can socialize youth to the look, taste, and even the brand of non-alcoholic beverages.
45:40 Nicola Twilley? Molly told us that she's found that 39 out of 50 US states have no rules on how old you have to be to buy a non-alcoholic beverage.
45:48 Speaker 06 Meaning that if you're 12 years old, technically you could walk into a store and legally purchase a non-alcoholic beer. However, retailers are able to make their own decisions about whether or not they want a card and permit that.
46:01 Nicola Twilley? We mentioned how these drinks are marketed, but how they're marketed to kids could really matter, too.
46:05 Speaker 06 So if there are restrictions on marketing alcohol near schools, for example, would it be permitted to market a non-alcoholic product? So if we're thinking about not marketing Guinness, but marketing Guinness 0.0, is that something that's permitted? This issue of sort of alibi marketing or surrogate marketing where marketing the non-alcoholic product then still exposes people to the full strength brand.
46:32 Speaker 06 Is something that I think regulators will need to consider.
46:37 Cynthia Graber? So there's actually a lot of questions still to be answered about the overall benefits of these drinks. But right now, really, it seems like the main use case for these beverages is if I felt self-conscious about not drinking and wanted to hold something that looked alcoholic. As it happens, I don't, and so I would typically choose a seltzer because the flavor of these alcohol substitutes is just disappointing. Luckily, these days, bars and restaurants often even have options beyond seltzer. At least where Nikki and I live, a lot of bartenders are whipping up fantastic, creative mocktails, and these can be great alternatives. But in general, even the bottled and canned sector is growing. So clearly, there's a market, and as things get better, maybe it'll be easier to switch.
47:18 Speaker 02 The product doesn't have to be exactly the same, but it has to be close enough. We're not quite there yet, but I think that's what we're aiming for. Right? If you are a consumer, you understand that there might be a trade-off. Beer, non-alcoholic beer, be the same way, right? You understand there's a trade-off, but you also get the benefit of the, you know, a healthy choice. And so I'll give a little to get a little.
47:39 Cynthia Graber? Wes's personal favorite and professional responsibility, wine, that's a really tough one to crack. First, there's more alcohol than beer, as we said. But also, when you go and buy a particular kind of wine at the store, you have a really strong expectation of what you're going to get. If you buy a Napa Cabernet, even an alcohol-free one, you expect it to be like a Napa Cabernet, and it just is not right now.
48:01 Nicola Twilley? On top of that, the sheer cost of the best technology today, the spinning cone, Wes says that's been a real barrier to experimentation.
48:09 Speaker 02 And so in the wine industry, anyway, for many, many, many years, we've seen a lot of the innovation part driven by small producers. They don't have massive operations, they can afford to take risks, and we learn things from that as time goes on. That's never happened with these processes because there's a huge barrier to entry for most producers, right? These machines are north of a million dollars. Small, medium wineries are not throwing around that kind of cash just to buy a machine so they can play around with it.
48:40 Speaker 03 So a lot of that innovation has been missed.
48:44 Cynthia Graber? A lot of the innovation these days is happening with small nimble companies that aren't trying to make alcohol-free versions of something you already love, like non, building this new non-wine, wine-like drink from the ground up.
48:56 Nicola Twilley? That way, they can just make something that tastes sophisticated and refreshing and looks like a glass of rosé or whatever, but isn't. That's kind of the free AF approach, too, even though they are trying to mimic the real thing more closely, but they aren't constrained by having to make something and then remove the booze.
49:14 Cynthia Graber? Right, like for their Paloma, they don't take a grapefruit soda and mix it with tequila and then cook the alcohol out. They just build it from the ground up. Side note, I did actually buy a booze-free tequila just to try it. Here's our response when we first opened the bottle.
49:29 Speaker 02 Oh, it smells terrible. It smells like, like bad shipping supplies that you opened a box with bad plastic and adhesives.
49:38 Cynthia Graber? It smells like, like cleaning alcohol and feet.
49:41 Speaker 01 I was at the car mechanic this morning. That smelled better than this.
49:45 Cynthia Graber? Nail polish remover. But it's like non-alcoholic. I don't understand it. Why would you? Oh, the taste was no better. It tasted like pineapple juice, cayenne pepper, and solvent. It was vile.
49:56 Nicola Twilley? Listen, I was not impressed really by anything I drank for this episode.
49:59 Cynthia Graber? I will say, we really didn't mind the Notch Pilsner. It was decent.
50:02 Nicola Twilley? Fair. And also, my friend Rosecrans told me I should be more tolerant. Even though non-alcoholic drinks do have a long history, it's very short compared to the human history with alcohol.
50:13 Speaker 03 This is a new field, right? There's appetite for this out there. I understand why makers are trying to meet that demand. Nothing here I ever want to drink again, but, you know, first steps.
50:25 Cynthia Graber? The industry thinks that this field is going to keep improving and growing. Dana said that beer makers are a little nervous, and we've heard the same about winemakers. They're worried about losing their market. But really, if I have to make a prediction, I'm going to say that alcoholic beer and wine and cocktails are not going to be disappearing anytime soon. We still love them, and we're not alone.
50:44 Speaker 07 I don't think we're going anywhere. I think that we just have to move over and make room for a new emerging beverage, which is this non-alcoholic sector.
50:55 Cynthia Graber? More is more. Cheers to that.
50:57 Speaker 03 I want it on the record that Rosecrans grabbed the real GNT and is now keeping it for himself.
51:04 Cynthia Graber? Some of you may be thinking, wait, you just said that alcohol has been classified as a carcinogen. Really? But it's true. There's research that shows that drinking any alcohol can contribute to a slight rise in the likelihood of certain kinds of cancer.
51:15 Nicola Twilley? We've talked about things being classified as carcinogens on the show before. There's research that shows that eating cured meat, which includes bacon and sausage and hot dogs, eating that can contribute to a rise in the likelihood of certain kinds of cancer. And so all cured meats are also classified as carcinogens. But here's the thing with carcinogens. There's a lot of them out there. We're exposed to them almost all the time. And so it's not something you can avoid altogether.
51:43 Cynthia Graber? That said, with both cured meat and alcohol, you can choose how you want to moderate your exposure. For some people, having alcohol listed as a carcinogen is enough for them to stop drinking any at all. For others, cured meat falls into that category. For us, we've considered the research and we both have decided to enjoy what we enjoy in moderation.
52:00 Nicola Twilley? These things are decisions you have to make for yourself, as is whether you like the taste of the current range of substitutes. So please feel free to keep enjoying them if you do.
52:10 Cynthia Graber? Thanks this episode to Wes Pearson, Dana Garvis, Molly Bowdring, and Lisa King. You can find links to their companies and research on our website, gastropod.com.
52:17 Nicola Twilley? We also owe a huge thanks to our producer, Claudia Geib, as always, and to our long-suffering spouses, Jeff and Tim, and our equally long-suffering friends, Jeremy Ruthman Shore, stalwart gastropod fan and supporter, and Rosecrans Baldwin, whose latest book is called Everything Now: Lessons from the City State of Los Angeles.
52:37 Cynthia Graber? They'll be back in two weeks with a brand new episode. Till then.
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