How to Give Value and Win in the Creator Economy

In this episode of the GaryVee Audio Experience, I sit down with Daniel Wall, the host of Behind the Wall to discuss the foundational elements of my success: gratitude, hard work, and the influence of my parents. I dive deep into why I’m obsessed with providing value to my audience and why "kind candor" is the most important skill I’ve developed in the last five years. I also share my latest platform predictions for creators looking to stay ahead of the curve.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I've always was fascinated by kids that would spend all fucking day building a sandcastle, like all day. And then their parents are like, "Jimmy, time for, like, we're going in for dinner." And they would just smash it. And that's it. And I kind of feel like I'm like that in life and in business. I'm doing it for the joy of building it. Not for people to take a picture of my sandcastle, not for you to come over and be like, "That's the best sandcastle I've ever..." I'm building the sandcastle for me on this sunny day, quietly by myself. And so that is my life, that is my career, that is my content. And I think that has really, it's why I'm comfortable doing content. I'm not looking for outside validation. It does not give me self-esteem, nor does it not give me insecurity. And I'm playing my game.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  This is the Gary Vee Audio Experience.

• 0:48Speaker 01

  Gary, I'm incredibly grateful to have you on Behind the Wall today. Behind the Wall was started with the goal to shine a light on the people and stories behind music, movies, and media, but it was also to inspire every underdog to go for it. And that's how I kind of feel about myself, and it's especially how I feel about you when hearing your story about everything that you've been through. But also, even though I'm excited, I'm also a bit nervous because I'm planning to talk to you and ask you questions about things I've never talked about on camera before, because I'm really looking for your expertise in things that I don't think are talked about as much when it comes to the creator world.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  That'll be later.

• 1:30Speaker 00

  Okay, well, I'm excited.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  For Behind the Wall specifically, what I love to do is I always start out and I ask this question, I go, "For anyone who doesn't know who you are, what's something they'd know you from? What are some songs they'd know you from? What are some movies they'd know you from?" Because, you know, my goal is to really shine a light, in my opinion, on the people who are more behind the scenes of entertainment. But for you specifically, I think...

• 1:55Speaker 01

  What I want to ask is, for anyone who doesn't know who you are, how would you describe yourself and what you've created?

• 2:03Speaker 00

  I would say I'm probably a very contemporary entrepreneur that has a real heavy overlay of creator. You know, I think I got lucky that I was born at a time that when people look back at history and think about the creator economy, influencers, people that had public profiles through social and internet, not through television and film and music, that happened to also be business people. I was really at that forefront. You know, I started a YouTube show called Wine Library TV, reviewing wine, in February of 2006. Like, I'm looking at some of the people behind me. How old were you in 2006? You know, like, when I think about, how old were you in 2006?

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Ten.

• 2:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, so like, you know, I got very fortunate that my timing lined up where I get to say, for everyone who's listening, is I was one of the previews of the influencer-creator-entrepreneur economy. I'm a businessman, an entrepreneur. I run business, like, right a few minutes ago, before I walked into here at my global HQ in New York City, I'm in business meetings. Now I will do creator-type content, and then I will go back to business meetings. So, I'm an entrepreneur who has a knack for being in things early. You know, I'm an early investor in Facebook and Twitter and Snapchat. And I'm the one on the internet in 2018 that was yelling about, "Get on TikTok", and I'm known for that. Right now, I'm talking about live shopping, the QVC of social media, that will play out.

• 3:31Speaker 00

  And so, that's what I think people know me as out there.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  You just said that your first video was posted in 2006 on Wine Library. It's been 20 years since that. Were you ever afraid to put yourself on camera, though?

• 3:47Speaker 00

  No, I'm, I'll go right to the heart of why no. I was raised by a world-class mother. Like a, I wish there was a, like, we were just talking about sports before we went on. Like, I'm very into it, you're not that into it. Music has a Hall of Fame. Sports have Hall of Fames. I wish, I wish parenting had a Hall of Fame. I know why it doesn't. You know, it's very unique, it's different than those things. But man, if, if there was, my mom would have moonwalked into being a first-ballot Hall of Famer. She, um, so, I was raised by a world-class mother who navigated some other things that went in my favor.

• 4:30Speaker 00

  One, I was born in the Soviet Union, which is actually the reverse of something in your favor. I was born in a very bad place. But I got lucky enough that we got out of there and got to the US early. I was four when we were here, really, but my first several years of my childhood, we were incredibly poor. Or, or lower, lower, lower class. And I got to learn that I had incredible happiness in the home, even though we didn't have stuff. So I knew that happiness did not come from money. And then I just had my own natural genetics and self-esteem. And then I grew up in New Jersey in the eighties, where, you know, everyone's making fun of everyone at every turn, and fighting after school. And so, basically, this is a long-winded way to say to everybody.

• 5:14Speaker 00

  By the time I got to middle school and high school, in hindsight, I didn't realize this was happening in a time, at the time. I think, I'm looking at like the seven people behind us, like, I'm just kind of looking at them for human reference. I just know that I wasn't affected by peer pressure and judgment of my fellow classmates the way regular, normal people should. I don't even, at some level, understand it. But I will tell you that... Very early in my life, 3rd, 4th grade, I started going into a very weird mental cocoon, where I was very emotionally intelligent naturally, hung out with a lot of elderly people, and just got my perspective right. Way too early, which then meant I was way too happy,

• 5:58Speaker 00

  which then meant by the time I was 30, and already successfully built a huge business for my parents. Making a video on Youtube, and worrying if people were gonna think it's stupid, was the furthest thing from my mind. And that's why you may know, some people may know here, I make so much content around "don't worry what they think." So many people are living their entire lives based on the judgment of strangers they don't even like.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Or don't even know.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  Definitely don't know. Hence the strangers. You know, so... No, I was not concerned about the judgment. I was not concerned about getting quick success. I was loving the first 50, 60 episodes, 100 episodes, when barely anyone was watching. I like building. You know, it's funny, I've said this a couple times publicly, it popped up again right now. I love watching, like... You know that kid, are you this kid? Do you remember? You've gone to the beach?

• 6:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  Okay. I don't know, like, you know, Arizona, I'm not sure what the beach scene is. I don't know, I've always was fascinated by kids that would spend all fucking day building a sandcastle, like, all day. Like, you know, I'm just laying out, reading my book, whatever, all day. And then their parents are like, "Jimmy, time for dinner, like, we're going in for dinner." And they would just smash it. And that's it. And I kinda feel like I'm like that in life and in business. I'm doing it for the joy of building it. Not for people to take a picture of my sandcastle, not for you to come over and be like, "That's the best sandcastle I've ever..." I'm building the sandcastle for me, on a sunny day, quietly by myself. And so, that is my life, that is my career, that is my content.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  And I think that has really, it's why I'm comfortable doing content. I'm not looking for outside validation. It does not give me self-esteem, nor does it not give me insecurity. And I'm playing my game.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  You just said that you've been posting for a long time. I know that because I used to listen to the Gary Vee Audio Experience back in the day when I worked a nine-to-five job.

• 7:59Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Took pieces of, I used to have to do all the grunt work where I would take pieces of paper that were stapled, I'd have to un-staple them, I'd have to scan them into the system, and then I'd have to restaple them. And during that time, I would listen to a bunch of different things, but also the Gary Vee Audio Experience being like, "Post on TikTok, post on LinkedIn." And I would, I would post three to five times a day for, I'd say like three months at the time because I got laid off from my job the day before Thanksgiving. And then I got a new job the day before COVID all happened. And so then I worked from home and I would work my nine-to-five job answering calls for financial aid. And then anytime I could, I would work at night creating content. And I would do that and I would post content throughout the day so I could get through it.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  So you have been posting for a very, very long time. But what I find to be really interesting is, in order to prepare for Behind the Wall, I try to listen to as many interviews as possible. It was really, it was really cool listening to all the interviews from back in the day again. One of the things that stood out the most though was your belief in success. You talk about how it comes from who raised you.

• 9:07Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  And I would love for you to go into more detail because I really connected with both of your parents' stories. And I would love for you to go into more detail about what you learned from them, how they were raised.

• 9:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:19Speaker 00

  So my parents had very challenging lives. Both my parents lost a parent very young. My mom lost her mom at five. And my dad lost his dad at 15. And again, I'm in a room right now in America, there's some diversity in this room, so I don't know if people were born here or their parents were born in another country. But like, even when friends, parents, I have lots of immigrant friends, were born in another country, they were not born in the Soviet Union. The only nation in the world that is similar today to the Soviet Union, where I was born, let alone where my parents lived the first 20 years of their life, is North Korea. The only one. We were born in a place where you were not allowed to leave.

• 10:00Speaker 00

  AKA jail, right? So, my parents grew up also in the 50s and 60s in Russia, the Soviet Union, which is more similar to America in the 20s and 30s. So like many of my friends, my parents, I don't remember if my father and mother, I think my mother, but many of their neighbors and relatives did not have a working bathroom in their home. Like this was like, so, so now we come to America and it's rough. We're living in Queens in a studio apartment like this with six family members, but for them, it's like way better. You're in like freedom. Like, my grandfather spent 10 years in jail in Russia for nothing.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  Like, like it was just like that. So, my, my parents were basically, by the time I'm 4, 5, 6, conscious, they're just grateful for the opportunity to work their faces off and have no luxuries. I went on 1 and 1/2 vacations in my entire childhood. It didn't even cross my mind. I didn't even, you know, when you're growing up around, uh, uh, I'm bouncing around here a little bit. One of my friend's dads wore the same pair of pants every day. Like, we grew around, not a lot. We, we came from less and, you know, they were, they never complained, bro. Brother, you know, you, you know, again, my content back then, I'm sure you're busy now, but my content today is probably even more about this.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  Like, complaining is destroying people.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Like, everyone, everyone in this room has something that they're concerned about. Something that's an adversity. Me included. Like, you know, like, you know, fame or popularity or money. Like, it does not take us away from people being sick in your family, you being concerned about things, random events that are challenging. And then the pressures, you know, I have 3,500 employees. I feel a lot of pressure about that. It's people's lives, Tyler, Bryce, just, like, it's pressure. Like, everyone's got stuff. But what my parents taught me was to not complain, to be grateful for what they do. They taught me work ethic. My mother never had a baby, I did not have one babysitter or one other person clean our home in my entire life. My mom was home every minute. She did everything.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  Like, just that level of work ethic with the inability to complain just became so culturally foundational. I'm embarrassed to complain. Now, I would argue our family, you know, like anything, you can take some things too far. I think we didn't learn how to communicate vulnerabilities or some communication things that probably could have been better in hindsight. But man, I wouldn't trade anything for how I was raised. And, um, you know, my dad worked every minute to allow my immigrant mom to stay home. Immigrants, both parents tend to work. You know, my dad worked his face off. You know, but we lived within our means too. Like, a lot of people now that have money problems are buying purses and hundred-dollar sneakers and buying coffee every day for five bucks a cup.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Like, we lived humbly, even below our means, to save money was such a... Saving money was such a north star. Nobody even talks about that now. There's no talk about saving. You know, and so, I was, I was very fortunate. I was, I was raised by very hardworking, very humble. And then my mother was an angel of sweetness and optimism and hope and deliciousness. And so, you know, I sit here on the shoulders of them. Brother, I'll be honest with you, like, all the Gary V love on earth, even... Do you know how humbling it is to hear you say what you just said? Like, in my job, I was listening to you, it's flattering. And yet, it almost like passes through me to my parents. Like, you said that compliment, I'm like, oh, there's the compliment, see ya.

• 13:42Speaker 00

  You know, like, like, I, I'm very detached from my notoriety and success because I think it's my parents.

• 13:49Speaker 02

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• 15:22Speaker 01

  Because you feel they gave you everything you ever needed.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  I feel like I'm the byproduct. I feel like, like this podcast. You should take pride in it. You're the architect. You're doing it. I am prideful about my companies. Like V Friends, when I build it, Dialed In Dog, like, when I build the next Disney Pokémon, I'll be like, hey, you know, I'll be proud. And I'll say, like, my parents, like, made me a good person, but I feel like I did it. Me, Gary Vaynerchuk? I am the byproduct of them. Obviously, not, like, wildly, like, like anatomically, like, like they birthed me, but like, no, no, like, my mom, like, made this. I am the vase that my mom created. I am the fucking vase that this woman created. And then, my father, all, you know, I talk a lot about my mother, but I will say something. My father did one very important thing, that I think is like, was the potential missing ingredient.

• 16:10Speaker 00

  My mom gave me all the things I am. Empathy, kindness, like, so many things I'm proud of. But you know, my mom has gift of gab too, like, she's a schmoo, like, she'll schmooze a story. AKA, when I was 14 and started working with my dad, my dad thinks an embellishment. Is like a catastrophic lie. Like if you were like, if you, my dad was your dad and now I'll make pretend I'm your dad, right? How many, how many people listen to your podcast? And if you were like, ah, like, I don't know dad, like 70,000 or 700, I'll just use 700. If it was actually 694, I would make a federal case about it. You're a fucking liar. Like, and he like scared like the bullshit out of me in 14, 15, 16.

• 16:55Speaker 00

  Cause I was a salesman, I would try to sell stuff. I'm like, this is the most delicious coffee. Like, I was a kid at 14, trying to sell my lemonade or baseball cards. In hindsight, I have such gift of gab and such charisma that I could have gone down a different path. And I, and I really thank my father for like scaring the baloney out of me because, you know, I think when people first see me in content, all that charisma, extrovertness. People are like, wait a minute, is this guy for real? I am for real. That is a lot to do with my mother, but I will say equally, and by the way, if not more, I'm real because of my father. Cause in my early teenage years, he scared the fuck out of me.

• 17:35Speaker 00

  And by the way, my father is a Soviet dude who never smiled and his eyebrows are naturally in the mean state. So like, I was like scared of this dude. So like when he was like embellishment is lying, when he was like, your word is your life. I'm like, okay, like, you know, by the time, and so I got very fortunate, bro. Hey everybody, I hope you're enjoying the podcast right now. Make sure you follow the podcast, that's why I'm interrupting. Let's keep going on this show, but follow the podcast. It'll make my mom super happy.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  You just talked about you, you have immense pride for the company you built.

• 18:07Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  What, during some of the interviews I watched, you talked about how people often build companies or something from immense confidence or immense insecurity.

• 18:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  And I would love to know your definition of what the difference between the two is.

• 18:24Speaker 00

  I believe a lot of people reach the top out of being angry at the world, and I'm gonna fucking show you. Because they didn't get the love, because their parents didn't set it up. And they're just so mad at everyone, and they think they're lesser than, that the only way they know for you to like them is you're gonna make so much money and be so known, that you're gonna be forced to like me. And that is a very dark Darth Vader, like the dark side energy. And then I think a smaller group of people get to the top on a pure love train, on some Yoda shit, on some Obi-Wan stuff. And, you know, I am very grateful that I am in that smaller camp. And when I find others that have gotten to great places or built great things from a love, from an optimism, from a hope, from being good to people, it comes very easy for me to see,

• 19:08Speaker 00

  and it also comes very easy for me to see when it's the other. That you do not think you're worthy, and so you needed these outside validators, money, a blue checkmark, millions of followers, a Beverly Hills home, a BMW, a Rolex. You needed all these other things to close those gaps. But let there be no confusion, that's why I love Star Wars. Both the dark side and the Jedis do get to this pretty extreme place. My point of view, though, is for the people that are listening that have gotten to the top through insecurity, you've gotta work through that with therapy and your own self-work, because it's not sustainable. There's a reason people get to the top and crash. It's because when you get somewhere because of darkness, when you burned people along the way and stepped on people,

• 19:50Speaker 00

  when the people around you don't admire you, they fear you. It's not a very nice place, and eventually it gets suffocated and burns out.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Do you think people who have built from insecurity can change and build from a place of love?

• 20:03Speaker 00

  I do. That's why I'm so passionate about how I make content. I do believe in therapy. I do believe in changing your inner circle and spending more time. I do believe that listening to a positive voice in a podcast over and over and over and telling you, "You can, bro, you can." I think that matters. I think you are the people you're around. I think it's very important. And I think you can, and here's even a better one. I even think if you've done it wrong, and you've done wrong by people for 60 years, and for some reason you're listening to this podcast right now.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  And you're just like, "You know what? I'm tired." And this guy's right. That literally tomorrow could be the day you start. For 38 years, I did not take care of my health. I didn't exercise, I didn't eat well. And like, it was hard at 38 and 1/2, I always say that like I'm a little kid. It was hard at 38 and 1/2 to like, get more disciplined, to start going to the gym. Like this morning, I didn't want to go. Like I tried to come up with any excuse that I could tell my trainer, you know like, but I did it, and I fought through it. And I do think that some things come natural to people and other things don't, but I do believe in the human spirit, bro. I believe humans can change, but they have to take big action. I will say this for everyone who's listening. And in this little room of you youngsters, you gotta pay attention to the people you're around.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  Including your parents, including your siblings, including your plus 1, like... There are people who are... They're not bad people, they're just hurting so they're trying to take you with them. It's the old misery loves company. It's not like they're bad people. They're just hurting. It's funny, I don't struggle with people that are bad to me. I have actually a lot of compassion for it. I have empathy for it. Um, but I think a lot of people struggle with it and get caught. And they're like, "But Gary, it's my mom." I'm like, "I get it." Like, I'm not telling you to never talk to your mother again. But if you have a mother that all she does is complain about everything, and everything's negative, and the world sucks, maybe you don't have to talk to her 3 times a day. Maybe once every 3 days. And you tell her.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  Like, "Mom, like, this is just a little bit too much of this point in my life. I need a little bit of a breather." And she'll go crazy and be bad at you, because that's what will happen in that situation. But I, I think people can change. And I think it's the people you are around and what you listen to. You know this right now. I know I'm on a long-winded answer here, but stick with me, everybody. If you go on your newsfeed and social media right now, there's a lot of negativity to be had. What I don't believe that people realize is there's a lot of positivity to be had too. But we get into these cocoons and we're very good at rubbernecking. Like, why are we looking at that accident? Where, you know, like, we find ourselves looking there and I'm hoping people look for more optimism and more joy and more love and more opportunity.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's interesting you say that because I feel like a lot of people went down the path of negative type content because it gets engagement. And one of the things that I found that I really loved was to talk about the people who weren't being talked about, so songwriters, and at the end of every video I would say, "But why am I telling you this?" Uh, because there's so many people who are behind our favorite works of art. And people don't know who they are. And people are really connected with that message more than anything. And...

• 23:14Speaker 00

  It's, and you were coming from a place of love. Think about what you're doing. You're like giving flowers to people that normally don't get flowers. That's fucking beautiful and like makes a lot of sense to why it worked.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Do you think, though, there's a difference between having insecurity and having competitiveness?

• 23:31Speaker 00

  Yes, I'm incredibly competitive. Like, I like to win. Like, I'm weird with board games. Me and my brother's only significant fight in our life was over Scattergories. Um, like, you know, like, no, I think there's a reason there's two different words.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  How do you know which place you're at?

• 23:48Speaker 00

  Um, I, that's a great question. Let me tell you what I subjectively think it is. Competitiveness is fake. Meaning, it's momentary. Right? We're, you and I are playing Uno and I want to rip your face off. Like, straight up. But then when we're done playing Uno, I want to have a cup of coffee and be like, "Hey, how do I help your podcast?" Insecurity, which often leads to envy and jealousy, is you always want to rip the person's face off.

• 24:22Speaker 00

  It's sustained. It's sustained. That's, like, that's when people use "I'm competitive" as an excuse for envy. It's sustained. Like, when I play pickup basketball, I want to win. When I make a piece of content, I like it for it to be good. I like my companies to do well. I would say I'm competitive, but the people that make negative content and the theme you're talking about, there's a saying that I love. There's two ways to build the biggest building in town. Right? I'm sure you heard that in some of my old videos because I bring it up a lot. One is when I'm trying it. Just be so good that you're just building the biggest building in town.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  And you're actually happy for other people's solid buildings. Or do what's going on right now. Tear down everybody else's building, so your little fucking building seems like it's the biggest.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  And then if you do build a biggest building, you can bring people with you.

• 25:18Speaker 00

  Well, that's, I mean, I will tell you, like, that has been the great joy that I didn't know as a kid. I always knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I didn't know the impact I could have on others' careers. Bryce just started, right? Literally, day two. Five? Three? Is today Wednesday? Oh shit. Alright, day three. You know, one of the things, even in the interview, when I was talking, I was like, "Bro, what's crazy?" Because he's taking the role of like filming me and traveling, and obviously D-Rock, Caleb, Babin, some of these people have gone on to like really build huge careers on the equity of being here with me during this time. I even said it to him, I said, "Hey, even in the first interview, before he's even an employee, I want him to feel safe." I'm like, "Hey, if you want to come here for a couple of years and use it as a step..."

• 26:03Speaker 00

  Like, "I'm happy. We'll just communicate about that." Like, that is a humbling thing, that like, that my universe of building, what I'm building, is actually helping others. Whether that means, you know, with T. Walsh, been for a while, in fact, we just talked the other day. I don't talk to him every day, I've got a lot going on. I'm like, "Hey, I want you to take the next step, get closer with me." Whether that means 20 years together, whether that means it's a stepping stone for them. Yeah, I think one of the worst things I see about people building big things is they think, they think it's slavery, they think their employees are owed to them. I hate it, I'm so confused by that. I want to be so good, that they want to be with me the whole time. But I also get excited if they're able to use what they've learned, or the equity they gained with me, to go pop off and do something of their own.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  What kind of hypocrite would I be, if I didn't want them to have their own entrepreneurial things? When they go to other companies, I'm like, "Hey, man, the culture's not gonna be as good." Like, you know, there's a little bit of that, but, but, uh, you know, I, uh, yeah, man, you're right. Building big buildings and creating collateral impact is a, is a blessing.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  It's interesting you brought up Tyler.

• 27:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Tyler and I are in an accountability group for the past 3 years.

• 27:12Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  And we've been keeping each other accountable. And he's someone that I often call, pretty much every day. And like before some of my biggest interviews that I've had, I have felt like an imposter. As an example, before talking to one of the songwriters of K-pop demon hunters EJ, I felt like an imposter. Before interviewing Bruce Springsteen in the cast of the movie that came out with him, I felt like an imposter. And one of the things, I was having this long conversation, making all these excuses, and eventually got to the point like, "Why do I deserve to be up there?" And he's often one of the people who comes to me and he's gassing me up, he's helping me. And I guess my question is, is like,

• 27:57Speaker 01

  when imposter syndrome comes, how do you tackle it?

• 28:02Speaker 00

  Couple things. One, I think we're living in a world right now where we've created words that are way too heavy for what's actually happening.

• 28:12Speaker 00

  Like, one that I'm super pissed about right now is toxic positivity. I am pissed. I'm gonna get on that. I won't even go into a rant because it might take up all the time, like as if... I get delusion and selling a bullshit dream, yes, but like, do you know what imposter syndrome actually means in real life? Like when OGs like me from decades ago, when the word didn't exist, do you know what it was called?

• 28:35Speaker 01

  I know what you've said in the past, but I would love for...

• 28:37Speaker 00

  I even have a new definition because I know it's a micro-insecurity. You're just having a quick moment of insecurity, being like, "I can't believe it. Little old me from Arizona is about to interview Bruce." Like, all of us are supposed to have those moments. I pinch myself all the time.

• 28:56Speaker 00

  Like, especially at this point in my career, I'm getting DMs from like presidents of countries and like the most... I don't even know what the fuck's going on, but I don't think like I'm lesser than. My brain goes into like, "Well, why not?" Like, you know, I don't know, like in the narrow things that these people want to talk to me about, I'm passionate or knowledgeable. You are passionate and knowledgeable of what you have. You may not be the most passionate, you may not be the most knowledgeable, you might not be the best interviewer. I don't think like you're Larry King. But you're on your way and you're probably better today than you were before, right? So, I would just say that I'm struggling right now because I think youth culture has created words that are just really heavy.

• 29:37Speaker 00

  Impostor, syndrome, like toxic, everything's so heavy. And the words we use were just lighter versions. Like, I'm feeling, like, you would have called, ready? If you and Tyler were my age, you would have called and be like, "Yo bro, I'm feeling a little insecure about this interview." That feels way lighter than imposters. You know, I think we've made things heavy. On some, on some really deep psychological warfare that we're doing to older generations. I don't even want to go into this, but like, we're making things heavy because we're looking for sympathy. We're looking to continue our over-coddling of modern parenting. There's a lot to this. Nonetheless, here's what I would say to you. How do I deal with it? How do I recommend people doing with it?

• 30:22Speaker 00

  Take some heat off. Like, what's gonna happen here? You're gonna, let's say this is the worst, let's say you're terrible in this interview. Like, you're bumbling, you're, let's say you really admired me because you viewed me as someone who really did help your career. And you were nervous and it was, what? I mean, first of all, me as a human, I would feel compassion for that app and jump in and try to make it better and hug it, like, what's gonna? What if I was the reverse of me? Bizarre Gary? And like, stormed out and be like, "You stink." Who gives a fuck? You'd be like, "Fuck Gary Vee and move on with your life." Like, I, I want to get people to think more about worst-case scenario. We've created mountains out of molehills. We've created fucking mountains out of molehills. So how do I deal with it? It's just not that important.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Every business meeting that you have, every conversation you have, I'm guessing it's a different goal every single time. For example, you just talked about like, if this is the worst interview I ever do.

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  One of the things that I always do when I walk into an interview is like, I want to try to make it like the best interview possible, which isn't definable.

• 31:21Speaker 00

  Right. But you know you're putting, what I love about that is, that means you're putting in work, listening to other podcasts, trying to figure out questions that haven't been-

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Eight hours on the plane.

• 31:28Speaker 00

  It's humbling, and I admire it. And for every interview you do, humbling for me in this one.

• 31:36Speaker 00

  You're trying to think of different, like, I love that. That means you have pride in your work and you're trying. That's great, good for you. That's amazing, that's admirable.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  If there is...

• 31:46Speaker 00

  I mean, I try to give the, I'm one of the most compensated, most successful public speakers in the world. Every time I go onstage, I'm like, "Man, I gotta live up to this hype." You know, like, real talk, you know? And I give it my all, and I'm improv. So I'm not, like, you put in good work, like, I'm improv, so like, "You're..." And it's like SNL out there, like, you don't know, you know, I kinda...

• 32:07Speaker 01

  You're improv?

• 32:08Speaker 00

  I mean, here's the reality. I'm talking about things I know, it's just like this, right? Like, I don't have to think. I just talk about shit I know, so... It's complete improv, in that I have no idea what I'm gonna talk about. Now, what I'm good at is, like, I'm like, "Okay, this is the dentist academy of the universe." Like, these are 5,000 dentists who wanna build their practice, so my brain goes into, "What would I do if I was a dentist?" And because what I do for a living is attention, marketing, business building, how to communicate to the world, it fits for everything. It doesn't matter what I walk into. And because I'm still in the traffic and in my craft, I can speak to, in detail, about Substack right now, and LinkedIn, and podcasting, and vlogging, and live streaming, and what's happening on Kick and Twitch, and SoundCloud and Spotify, and TikTok,

• 32:54Speaker 00

  and Hive, Beehive, which is a competitor to, you know, Substack. I go deep, I know what's going on in Threads. Threads, in detail. Snapchat, Spotlight, they're TikTok, like, I'm a... I'm a practitioner, I'm good at my craft, so I stay in my lane, but it's improv, like, the joke I make, the analogy I make, the path I go. I might go, "Come on, some..." Do you know how improv I am? There are some times where I actually try to go down a certain path. Like, I'm three minutes behind the curtain, they're like, "Gary, me!" I'm like, "Okay, I gotta really talk about live shopping." And then something happens, it happened right now in this interview. These things go on, and it's over. It's like, everything gets blanked, and I'm just going... But I think that's great that you have that pride.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  How do you define success for a speech?

• 33:40Speaker 00

  Audience, audience reaction.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  If you don't get an audience reaction, is it like, what goes on in your mind?

• 33:46Speaker 00

  That I'm disappointed. That like, you know, like, you know, with my style, I curse a lot. So, usually I'll throw out a curse, and it pretty much looks like this. Fifty percent of the time, people are pumped, like, they don't hear a lot of cursing on stage, they're like, "Yeah, it's real." Thirty percent of the time, four, no, no, that's not true, forty percent of the time, it's like, fine, it's like, they know, especially at this point in my career, they know who I am. It's like, okay, he's gonna curse a little bit. Five or ten percent of the time, it's like, ooh, that didn't land, and then I'll, you know, back to improv, I'll like, start to walk away from it. Once in a while, man, I've given, maybe over a thousand speeches publicly at this point. I would say, maybe two hand, like, maybe ten times.

• 34:27Speaker 00

  Remember this one talk, very vividly, in Midtown, where it was an open bar, at late at night, while I was giving the keynote? And these people wanted to fucking get hammered and hook up. They could give a shit about social media marketing. And it was like, really hard, and I was like, really pressing. You know, there's also times where it's well received, but I didn't love it. Like, I feel like, eh, this is alright. That equally feels, almost weirdly, the same as it, like, not nailing it. But, you know, I kind of walk away and try to be better for it the next time. Luckily, that is one of the places where even my worst appearances are like a C. I don't have DNF ability in live speaking.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  How would you define DNF ability for a speech?

• 35:10Speaker 00

  I mean, a lot of speeches I've seen, like, people are boring as shit, no one gives a fuck, everyone's on their phone. People can't wait for the person to get off the stage, they're literally reading from a teleprompter, like, people are falling asleep, could give a fuck. Getting up and getting coffee and taking a piss, like, because they just can't wait for the next speaker.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Is it because of how many speeches you've done now, and like, what you know from it, or do you think it's just was?

• 35:32Speaker 00

  It was a natural talent. My first speech, I remember like, yesterday, in Florida. I had never given a speech, I'd never thought about giving a speech, they paid me five thousand dollars. I thought it was like, eighty billion, I was stunned I was getting paid for it. I got there, people were giving... I'd barely been to speeches. People had slides, I'm like, "Oh shit, I don't have slides." I'm like, "Yeah, I'm a DNF student, I'll just go up there and do whatever." And it fucking rocked. People were like... I was like fucking Elvis. Like, it was over, that was the last speech. People were rushing to the stage, "Can I ask you more questions?" I, back then, used to not fly home right away, so I was like staying in the hotel overnight. I was just gonna work in the hotel and have dinner. I stayed for four hours and talked to every person. And like, literally, like, that high, I was like, "Oh my god." You know, it's funny, uh, music. You hear a lot of people, you guys know music better than I do.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  Like, the first time they picked up a guitar, right? Like, the fir... like, right? It happens, right? The first time they went to... I'm sure some people, right? You know, like, people have humbly told you, like, "No, it's just in me." Athletes, we talked about earlier, like, I have a... Like, I see LeBron James little videos when he was like five, like, you knew. And so, like, you know, I'm not saying I'm LeBron or some all-time musician, but... In public speaking, it came really uncomfortably natural.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  But then again, like, I talked to a lot of artists where, like, there's a lot of things that don't come incredibly natural to them. What are some things that didn't come natural to you?

• 36:47Speaker 00

  There are still things that don't come natural to me that are essential to, uh, running a business. Reading contracts. Do you know that I have no... I might not even own my own businesses. My head of legal, Mark Yudkin, I trust him so much, everything's a contract, I saw... He could literally put a contract in front of me and be like, "You give me everything." Yep. Like, like, no clue. Uh, finance. I... I'm good with numbers from a common sense standpoint. Like, my seven times seven is forty. Not like, uh, math comes natural to me in basics. But there's a reason I got Ds and Fs in like, algebra and calculus. And more importantly, I don't want to spend any time balancing the books. I sat through a finance meeting today. I'm actually proud, I've gotten to a place where I found a way to enjoy it. But I went years...

• 37:32Speaker 00

  I mean, I built this company from zero to a hundred million in revenue, and I don't think I looked at finances once. Now, I had my brother looking at, like, there's reasons, not as, but like, and I know how to, like, I know common sense, like, I know how to not run out of money, but finances, legal, these are foundational things to running a business. Um, I'll give you one, I'll be vulnerable, you definitely heard this, candor was, candor on public, I'm a fucking G, podcast, stage, I'm candor fucking capes, I'm the fucking superhero of candor. Real life, Bryce has been here for three days, I already feel less wanting to tell him what he's not good at than three days ago, because the second people get into my world, I'm like, let's be friends, let's be family, let's be, like, so candor was a struggle for me, I've really fixed that in the last five years.

• 38:17Speaker 00

  How? I went through a lot of, every challenge I've had in my personal and professional life. Uh, I looked myself in the mirror five years ago and said, "I've got a kryptonite." It was hard. This goes back to why I think people can change. I just looked at myself in the mirror, I'm like, "Why do some former employees not like me? That's insane, I'm the nicest, and I love them." I'm like, "Fuck, it's all the same movie." I was unable to tell them what they were not good at.

• 38:45Speaker 00

  Instead, I'd be like, "Great to see you, have the best day." I would start to build resentment because they sucked, or not, or underdel, that's not fair, or they underdelivered against my subjective, right, uh, KPIs or objectives. I was unable to communicate to them, and then out of left field, they got fired, and they were mad at me. They're like, "What the fuck, where the fuck did that come from?" And everything bad in my personal life, relationships, and professional life, was my inability to not be candorous, building up resentment, and then leaving, leaving everything for them, but like, leaving, right? Or, or firing, because I have to, like, I can't have the company go out of business, I can't let the good people get, go down with the people that are underperforming.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  So I just finally looked myself in the mirror after several, enough momentum professionally and personally of like, "Mm, mm." And I just wanted to be better, like I'm always self-checking myself. And I just finally got there. It was like, kind of like blur- first I didn't see it at all in my twenties. Then probably in my thirties, I could kind of like, started getting a little blurry, you know, it's coming into focus, you know? In my early forties, I'm like, "Mmm." And then, you know, some people that were working with me for nine or 10 years got really close enough to be like, "Hey, you do know that like you-" I used to call it "razzing." I weaponized the word. I'm like, "I'm gonna razz you." What I was doing is I was being passive-aggressive. Cause I was upset with your performance. But I couldn't tell you, so I had to innuendo it.

• 40:11Speaker 00

  And I'm really happy where I'm at right now, I'm getting more candorous.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Did you, what, what, that's something that I have a bit of a problem with, especially when it comes to con- like more conflict?

• 40:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, conflict. Well, by nature, it's conflict, by nature, if I'm gonna tell Tyler right now, like, "Hey, I think you're working too much on your sidewalk walks." This is not true, by the way, Tyler, don't worry. But like, I know he does them, if, if I had a fe- cause he works his face off. But if I was like, "Oh man, he's like here, but he's really downstairs interviewing emerging rappers, and like, I'm paying him." Like, before, I would like make a joke. Like, I'd go to the bathroom, be like, "Go to do a rapper?" You know, like, try to like do something where I didn't have to, right? Like, by nature, if I was gonna come to him, who I am now, is I would call him and be like, "Hey, brother, there's so many good things you're doing, I gotta be honest with you though, like, I feel like you're kind of like working on your own thing half the time, and I'm paying you full-time." I can now do that in a nice way. But by nature, that's a conflict.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  So, anything that's candorous is gonna touch on conflict, so I get it, go ahead.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Did that take just practice?

• 41:11Speaker 00

  Yes. It still fucking sucks for me. It's still like I have butterflies in my stomach in the morning when I wake up, when I have to talk to a junior employee and tell them they're not doing well. Me. Junior employee. If I'm gonna have to have that convo, for whatever reason, maybe I know their parents or something, like, it's a, yeah, I don't like it, but, but I've definitely gotten through it. I'm on the other side.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  It's very popular, at least in current- Business practices, at least content practices, where often business owners talk about this idea of only working on the things that you love, only working on the things that you're good at. Do you not feel that you could have hired someone to be that candorous bridge for you?

• 41:52Speaker 00

  I did, but I thought it was... It's not authentic because I'm so deep in the culture. I could. By the way, that's what most people do. They have HR to do the dirty work. I'm in the shit too much. I'm in the fabric of this company. I like know people's real lives. I'm like... By the way, that can happen to somebody I don't know. I have 3,000 employees, there's plenty of people I don't know. That can happen in that scenario. It's when I'm touching... Real talk. If Tyler today... This is perfect that he's here and you're connected to him. If Tyler... And you'll watch how he reacts to this. If Tyler got an email from our pet team, people and experiences team, because I don't even like calling it HR because I think it's so bad, that term. If he got HR and they drilled him,

• 42:36Speaker 00

  it would be so out of left field and he would wonder like, "Why did I let that happen without a warning?" Because we're close enough of that. And that would end the trust that him and I have right now. It would change our relationship. So I couldn't do that. That's not the right thing to do. But what I was doing was even worse. What I was doing was worse. I wouldn't let HR do it, but then no one did it. And then what would literally happen is like in 6 months, I'd be like, "Ty, Ty, Ty." "Ty, you know, we're at the end of the road here, man." Like, "You know it. You stink. You know you're doing all these rap videos." Like, "Right?" And the person didn't. And for a long time, I blamed them. I'm like, "Fuck this person." I fucking had them on my payroll for 2 extra years while he was doing his rap video. I know I'm on this kick now, but like...

• 43:19Speaker 00

  And so I would blame them. I was not accountable. And you know what really breaks my heart? I could have fixed it for everyone. That's what I'm intoxicated now with kind candor. I've been able to course correct for people and now they're gonna have great careers. Now I see it as a way I can really help. So that's really changed the paradigm. Before, I used to think it was a way to scare people. I thought it'd be like, "Hey, you gotta shape up." I thought he'd be walking and basically be on LinkedIn an hour later looking for a new job because he was scared that I told him he might be on thin ice.

• 43:49Speaker 00

  Now I see it very differently. Now I see it as like, he's gonna be happy with me that I'm giving him an opportunity to address it. We had a major one happen in the LA office in the last three months, a very senior person. It's shocking. The kind candor from me and other leaders, like, that person's on the complete other side of the pit. Like, not even the same person. So it's exciting to see the benefits of doing the right thing.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  You invested in some of the biggest companies ever back in the day. How big of a risk did you take? What are some of those companies? And why did you invest in them? Like, what point in your career were you at when that happened?

• 44:31Speaker 00

  When I invested in Facebook and put $200,000 into it, I had $234,000 in savings. And I was paid under $100,000 from ages of 22 to 34, even though I built a huge business for my father, because it was an immigrant business and you don't get paid. It was a catastrophically big bet that I did not think was a big bet at all. I was 100% sure that Facebook was going to be monstrous, not even '99.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Why?

• 45:00Speaker 00

  It already was big. That's it. That's the truth. It's not like I met Mark when he's like, "I got an idea." It was a couple years later, already had tons of users, every school. Like, here's why. It started in Boston, obviously. My brother, which was lucky for me, was at BU freshman year of Facebook. So BU got it like fifth. And my brother's like, "Yo, there's a new app." Because we were already into tech a little bit, I was running Library TV. Like, every kid in my school's on it within the first hour. I'm like, "Oh, interesting." You know, so I already kind of knew it from that frame. You know, when you're watching, it was, I already believed in MySpace and knew MySpace well.

• 45:42Speaker 00

  I was interested in how Facebook was causing the risk. Like, I knew I couldn't be on Facebook because it was just for college kids. I thought that was smart. I know how young, I was, yeah, and I was 30, so I just got out of the era a decade ago of like, how kids think about things, like, they don't want anybody older on it, and like, how cool culture works. I fully believed in social media already, even going further back than MySpace. I don't know if you guys know this, there was a site called Friendster, which was before MySpace. Tumblr, right after that I invested in, that was even, that was middle school culture, not even college.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Was there any like return on Facebook by that point that were like, "Yes Tumblr"? Like where, was the baby started?

• 46:24Speaker 00

  No, no. The, the reason I was, so, I, I invested in Twitter, forty-three thousand, forty thousand into Tumblr. At that point, it was one year later, so I had a little more money. Tumblr, I might have invested Tumblr after I did my first book deal. So I got some money from a book advance off a viral video on YouTube of a keynote speech.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Wait, you got your first book deal from a viral video?

• 46:47Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Did not know that.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't, I don't really, you know, I don't say it that way, because the truth is, it wasn't even from the viral video. Let me say it a little bit different. I, maybe the third speech I gave in my life was at the Javits Center. It was called Web Expo. I think it was 2008. And I went onstage, and I'll never forget this, I told two people that I was in the green room. I had, I'd never had this feeling in my stomach. It was like a mix between very nervous and very confident. I could feel I was feeling different. And so I said to Jason Freed, from Thirty-seven Singles, great founder, and Fred Wilson, one of the iconic New York City VCs. I said, "I'm about to go onstage and something very good or very bad is about to happen, I could feel it."

• 47:33Speaker 00

  And I went on there, and I was in my like Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy raw, like I was in it. I was eleven out of ten, and I was spinning good shit, like, all stuff that became true. And by the time I went home, back to the wine store, when I say home, the office, like literally went back home, because I was still working in Jersey, even though this was in New York and I was living in New York. I had three different emails from publishers that were in the audience.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 47:59Speaker 00

  And I took meetings, and I signed a very big deal with Harper Collins. And then I wrote Crush It!, which changed the course of my life.

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• 49:37Speaker 01

  And everyone references Crush It from back in the day.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, Crush It, like, it's so humbling watching, like, the biggest creators and personalities. Like, just how many people talk about Crush It being the book that, you know, it was a multi-week, you know, very successful New York Times bestselling book. If you read it now, you would shit. Like, I predicted, right, Matt? You just read it. It's crazy, right? I predict live shopping in it. It basically lays out the entire creator economy. It speaks about this, what's happening. Like, you have to remember, you guys are all youngsters. There was no internet fame. When I went on Conan to do my wine thing in 2007, this is, look at the goosebumps I'm about to,

• 50:25Speaker 00

  I don't know if you guys can see this. This is real, what I'm about to tell you. It made the front page of Dig, which was like... That was like Reddit plus TikTok plus Twitter combined. It made the front page of Dig. Everybody, from Perez Hilton, who was one of like the only known bloggers. When I, every person on Twitter, I was trending on Twitter. Everybody on the internet was cheering for me, literally saying things like Gary Vee, "Do it for us." That's how small the internet personality community was in 2007.

• 51:01Speaker 00

  Like, it was a different time, so that book... In fact, when I wrote that book, I took a lot of heat. People said I was a snake oil salesman. There was like quotes on the internet, things like, "This fucking asshole is trying to convince you that you're gonna make $50,000 a year on YouTube." Think about that. I know, I love your guys' reaction. Think about that. So, yeah, it was a, I'm very proud of that work. You know, as I get further away from that work, and as that work, that book, what I said in it, becomes more and more true, it feels more significant to me in my history of my career, more today than even three, four years ago. Because, because y'all will go now, "Look at that," and like skim it, and be like, "Jesus."

• 51:45Speaker 00

  You know, I was 10 and he was like talking about like influencers and podcasts and livestream, like how? Because it didn't exist yet. By the way, Matt, I know you just read it. I don't say influencer or creator because the term didn't exist. Right? It's not referenced. The, like, the term didn't exist, bro. What did I say, people? Entrepreneurs? Entrepreneurs, yeah.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  You are very well-known for making predictions. In fact, 10 years ago, you did an interview with Larry King that I watched, and he asked you what social media platform should we pay more attention to? And you said "music.ly," not even "musically" at the time. So, that, what I wanted to, what I wanted to ask for you with that is, why did you say "musically" back then? And what platform or thing should we pay more attention to now?

• 52:43Speaker 00

  Got very lucky, especially Larry King, so cool. So the answer to your question right now, if you're not paying attention, people should know what Substack is, but I would say it's the one that people are not using, that a lot of people should be using. I would also say that Snapchat Spotlight. People use Snapchat, they don't use the TikTok, Instagram of Snapchat called Spotlight.

• 53:07Speaker 00

  I would say there's nothing else. And oftentimes, because I've been asked that question for the last 10 years, the answer is nothing. And I would argue the two things I just said are not new. Snapchat's been around forever, there's a nuance within it. And again, Substack should be known, but I know a lot of people don't know it, so I hope that helps. If you're a writer and you just heard that, I think I just did something really good for you, so good luck, go download it.

• 53:30Speaker 00

  Musically had already happened. Like, I'm always, always paying attention and hoping something pops up again. Like, I'm always watching. Musically had already happened. An extraordinary amount of 14-year-old teenage girls were making videos. Yeah, and boys. And but even when Larry, like, it was really, really girls. And then in 15, it was boys. Like, it started, like, I watched it. And then I was like, oh. Because, you know, I am who I am. I knew Facebook started as college kids. So when everybody was saying to me, "You're wrong about Musically, it's just teenage girls", and I would tell like 40-year-old businessmen, "You're gonna be on it one day", they're like, "What are you talking about?". I know how youth culture drives, it's the tail that wags the dog. And I, and I, I'll tell you why I actually believed in it.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  It's because of Tumblr.

• 54:18Speaker 00

  Tumblr was the app I invested in that was based on following things you're interested in, not who you follow. Right? All of you, you guys are to the right age, you were into like the art you liked, or the photos, or the skateboarding, like, you were into a subject, not a person.

• 54:35Speaker 00

  And I called that the interest graph in my head. People, not social media, interest media. When I saw Musically, I'm like, "Wait a minute, you don't need followers, you're posting", and people that are into dancing or cooking, like, the content's finding the audience. And then I was, became aware of what was going on in Asia, and what was going on with TikTok, I'm like, "This is it". And then obviously TikTok bought Musically to continue that process, and here we are.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of time has passed since you've said that.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  And you've talked about like for content creators to not be emotionally attached to content. But my question is oftentimes as creators or artists, income can be predicated on views, on engagement.

• 55:16Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Because of this, would you recommend to build businesses and income outside of views and engagement? As creators?

• 55:24Speaker 00

  Yes, if you're capable. The problem is creators and influencers have become synonymous with entrepreneur and it's not true.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  And vice versa.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 55:35Speaker 00

  And this is where I think I'm part of a smaller subset. I am both creator and influencer and entrepreneur. I was entrepreneur first. I didn't become creator until I was 30, which is wild to think about. I didn't have even the ability to. The platforms didn't exist.

• 55:55Speaker 00

  I would love anybody that has 100,000 followers for their get ready with me makeup stuff, or skateboarding, or video game. I would love for them to be capable to start a business selling skateboard equipment, or swag, or a coffee that they want to start like Emma Chamberlain did, right? I'd be pumped if people could do that. I just know it's hard. Like 99% of businesses fail. I would love people that can start businesses. People that are selling $15 million of mittens, or of deodorant, or of sneakers that they invented. I would love for them to be great at content creation because it will drive their business.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  I'm just aware that both of them are profoundly important skills that are rarefied air and it's hard to beat both.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  You talk about attention being the main asset. Once someone actually... A lot of creators develop the skill of getting attention using hooks, making content. Once they get attention, what do you think they should do with it? Is it just about continuing?

• 56:58Speaker 00

  It's a great question. My preference is for them to build depth with their audience.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Okay, this is great, this is great. How do you build depth with your audience? Talk to them?

• 57:07Speaker 00

  By loving them. By caring about them more than what they give you. I will tell you the biggest reason, almost, this is actually profoundly fun to say. Everybody, the number one reason it's not happening for you. And that's pretty much everyone, like, almost everyone, especially under 25 right now, 22. Everyone's taking a stab at trying to be famous. The reason it's not happening for you is everything you put out is in your own self-interest. "I want to get followers from this." "I want to get money from this." "I want people to like me because of this." You give absolutely no thought to what's in it for them. "I want to look beautiful." "I want to seem cool." "How does..." "I want to take a picture on my left side because I look more handsome that way." Like, everything's about you! I know the reason I got here.

• 57:52Speaker 00

  I, every single piece of content from that first wine review. When I sat down and I drank that wine and I like sat just like this. I remember it like yesterday. All I thought about was, "I'm gonna taste these wines and I'm gonna teach them and tell them the truth." That was the wild thing I did. This is, the wildest thing I did was my, my best friend who was running the business with me, my cousin who was running the business with me, and my father, literally thought I lost my mind because in episode 4 or 5, I'm tasting a wine that we sell! That is literally downstairs, stacked to the ceiling! And I'm like, "This wine's crap."

• 58:31Speaker 00

  "It's thin, it's off balance." And like, they saw it because they thought I was doing QVC.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  But you weren't selling.

• 58:39Speaker 00

  What I, and I, by the way, the first time I thought about it, I thought I was doing QVC. I'm like, "Oh, let me make videos to sell wine." And something happened, I mean, I'm looking at it right now, that little red button. The first time, I'm like, "Wait a minute."

• 58:52Speaker 00

  "What if I tell them I like this and I don't?" Like, it became very real, very fast, and...

• 58:59Speaker 00

  I was trained to bring value. My obsession was to make the world like, like enjoy wine more. You know this, probably all of you know this. Wine's funny. Like if you have a buddy who knows wine, they're like a douchebag about it. Like, "Oh, you don't know, you're gonna smell it." Like, and I, and I loved wine, but none of my friends did. It actually wasn't the era like, it's crazy, you guys won't even know this. For all of you, there was nobody, 20 years ago, under the age of 40, that liked wine. Maybe if you were in a very rich family and it was in the culture, but not normals like us. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it was just like, "No way, beer, like, no way." And I wanted kids my age to like wine too. I made the show selfishly at some level.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  And I wanted to make wine cooler, I wanted to de-douchify, you know, wine. I wanted to give people, you know, to try different wines, because there were so many different wines to taste. It was all about them, bro. And then when I started talking about business, it was all about them. You can get famous on the internet, you can start a business, you don't have to hate your nine to... You know! And this was the early stuff, even before you might have even caught me. It was like, you don't have to fucking unstaple, scan, and staple. This internet thing is gonna give us an opportunity. And that, uh, and that is why. Now, look, some people bring value because they're a fucking smoke show and people like looking at them, they're hot. Some people are funny as fuck.

• 1:00:25Speaker 00

  Some people are super intelligent and it's like nerdy, like... Some people are really good at reviewing music and like, they, people, we enjoy their perspective on it. Some people can interview well, like, value comes in a lot of different form. But are you a value in giving it? Or are you looking to extract and you want the riches from it?

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Even that being the case for longevity purposes, for to be in this industry for a long period of time, would you say that storytelling is the most important thing?

• 1:00:56Speaker 00

  No, but I think I understand what you're saying. I think it can be one of them. I think storytelling is a remarkable skill that can keep you very, very relevant, right? Especially if you can tell net news stories. If you're Steven Spielberg, like, you know, like, yes. I would say value. And like, value comes in different... Like, I can speak for myself. Five years, I was just bringing value to America about buying better wines for cheaper prices. Making wine fun. You know what was a big one? Having a lot of young kids find something to do with their father. That was huge. I mean, here it is again, the goosebumps. The amount of people that have emailed me in my life. Young women was a big one. "Hey, I want to thank you.

• 1:01:38Speaker 00

  Your show gave me and my father something we both liked." He was a sports guy, wasn't into it. He was always with my brother, but we connected over Wine Library TV. And I just want you to know, that meant something to me. Like, you know, like, that was value. Other people, like, you know, like, got... It became sommeliers' cousin. That was value. I did that for five years. Then, I became... Started talking about business, Gary, right? My value then was, "Do this." "Do these ads." "Set up this account." "Post..." It was very detailed. Very specific advice. That was three, four years. Then I realized, nobody was doing it. Even though I was making all this content, getting millions of views. I'm like, "Wait a minute, insecurity." Minds, perspective.

• 1:02:23Speaker 00

  Then I started bringing value of like, "Your life can be good." Now I get emails and stuff by people that are like, "You saved my life." "You got me out of alcohol." Like, you know, like, value. You know, uh, some people love me because I got them to collect Pokemon cards again. Because I talked about that in 2018 and 19. Like, "These cards are coming back." That was value. I get emails every day from 48-year-olds saying, "You brought joy back into my life." I jumped on it, because I thought I could make a couple bucks. Now it's the thing I collect with my son. And I have happiness. Where I started a card shop. Like, that, uh, uh, people... Back to music? People email me saying, "Thanks for putting me onto Gunna early."

• 1:03:03Speaker 00

  Like, that's real emails in my inbox. I had done in the office early on in this career, like, I had a whole range there was. I was doing Unside Hype freshman 15 for like 4 years of my career. Had Unlimited on the Come Up Artists. People have asked, you know, said, like, value comes in a lot of different things. So I wouldn't say it's storytelling. I think it's bringing value.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  Do you think you can build depth with the audience through, like, online platforms that are there? Do you think you should take them off?

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  I prefer to take them off.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  Where would you put them?

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  Meetups.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  In person, IRL?

• 1:03:37Speaker 00

  IRL. I love IRL. Zooms, like, group, like, everybody here who's trying to build something should definitely do their next post saying, "There's a link in my bio to a Google Hangout next Thursday. I'm gonna be on from 9 to midnight. Come and hang out with me and ask questions." Everyone should do that. They will build depth.

• 1:03:58Speaker 00

  Do you know, you know this, I think, because you've done the research. You know I replied to every single tweet I got from 2007 to 11.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:05Speaker 00

  I built my entire career on depth.

• 1:04:09Speaker 00

  In fact, the follow-up book to Crush It that I wrote, that was also a New York Times bestseller, was called The Thank You Economy. Like, good old-fashioned 1950's principles. Thank you, you're welcome, hello, shake your hand, look in the eye, AKA, give a fuck about the other person. Replied to every comment. Do you know how many people are trying to grow, brother, and don't even reply to the comments or DMs they get? And they have 7 of them?

• 1:04:35Speaker 00

  We've gotten to such a level of entitlement and selfishness that you have people that are desperately trying to become the next Sydney Sweeney, the next King Batch, the next Marcelo Hernandez, and they get 9 comments on their little skit and they don't even say "thank you."

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  You've said in the past that everytime you post on social, you're trying to win.

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  What, does winning mean providing value?

• 1:05:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  How do you, so you provide value when you think about the audience and giving them?

• 1:05:14Speaker 00

  I'm gonna say it again, I do not even know how to post something. That's why, by the way, I don't post about my private life, you know that. Like, I don't think that's valuable. Here I am on a boat, you know this, I've done well in my life, you guys know this. I don't know if you know who I am or, like, you're not gonna see pictures of me and be like, "Here's my Rolex." You don't see me on the private plane, I'm not trying to flex on anyone. I do not understand anything other than value. I think it's the most tried and true thing that people can do, and I think people should do more of it.

• 1:05:52Speaker 00

  And by the way, I'm gonna say this, cuz I'm a little bit too absolutism, like, it's okay to sell. Like, you're allowed to, first of all, who the fuck am I, I'm not God, you can do whatever the fuck you want. I'm just talking about what is sustained, I'm answering your questions. How do you build, how do you be sustainable, how do you be long-term, you bring value.

• 1:06:08Speaker 00

  Or you have some hits, I mean, in music, it's wild. You have a good run, you can play on those 13 songs for the rest of your life. Even one, it's epic, that's why I love music, I'm pumped for people. One-hit wonders can live forever, like, it's different kind of venues. It's, you gotta have some humility, you used to do, you know, stadiums, and now you're like in a lodge. But those 40 people on that one hit will fucking bang it out word for word, and that feels good.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  You work with a lot of different brands. Have you ever had frustration when brands you work with don't follow your advice?

• 1:06:47Speaker 00

  I'm gonna give you some flowers. I'm really proud of you asking that question. That is a question that I've really not been asked a lot.

• 1:06:56Speaker 00

  And it's a really funny answer. You ready?

• 1:07:00Speaker 00

  I don't think I have a client yet, 15 years in, that fully listens to my advice. How about that? One thing that won't make sense to you guys, because you live with Gary Vee on the internet, and this is Gary Vaynerchuk on Madison Avenue with the biggest companies in the world, they still don't fully believe in social media.

• 1:07:21Speaker 00

  Still.

• 1:07:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. Like, you have no... Most biggest companies that you know, Nike, spends more on billboards and direct mail than social media.

• 1:07:36Speaker 00

  Like, the biggest companies you guys know.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  That being the case, though, you have never done a sponsorship with social media?

• 1:07:49Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Why?

• 1:07:56Speaker 00

  Value a little bit. I... Well, the jab, jab, jab thing is for everyone. I wrote the follow-up after Thank You, Condo, it was called Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook. Give, give, give, and then you can ask. Like, I'm not scared, like... I'll give a plug right now, WineText.com. I want everybody to buy their wine from my dad. I also think WineText is the best way to buy wine. It's like, really good deals, once a day on text. Uh, but, but I... Yeah, I mean, I have not gotten an offer that is lucrative enough... First of all, I would never pitch something I don't believe in.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:33Speaker 00

  Now, by the way, I don't judge influencers who do. I just am in a place where I don't have to. I can afford to not... Like, I've had plenty of things, like, "Well, give me $500,000 to post this." I'm like, "That's toxic, like, diarrhea stuff. Like, I'm not doing that." Like, you know, so I don't have to. Comma, I would, like, let me think of a good one. Captain Crunch cereal.

• 1:08:56Speaker 00

  I love Captain Crunch cereal. If Captain Crunch said, "Hey, we'll give you 3 million dollars, and we gotta do something really creative." Not like a post of like me, like, "Ah." You know, like something cool. Maybe like a wine event, pairing Captain Crunch with wines. And like, something that got me going. I'm not against it. I just don't look for it. Say no to everything. And I do business in a different way. But you know what's funny? You catch me at a time where I am, I am starting to, I am starting to get weird offers where like, people want me to be like in a national commercial and on billboards. And that's kind of funny to me. So I'm like hoping like, like a B2B company. Like, something boring to you guys, like Adobe. Or like, you know, like, you know, when you're like in the, you guys know when you go on an airplane and there's all those,

• 1:09:40Speaker 00

  like, the signage on the, like, because I fly so much, I'm like, "I'd do that." Like, I'd be like, "Hey, it's me." Like, "VaynerMedia uses Salesforce." Like, I would do something like that. You know? Something a little dorky that is really just an inside joke for me, myself, and I.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  You talked about how you didn't do a lot of vacations back in the day.

• 1:10:00Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  And me personally, I took my first ever vacation in seven years. I just got back from it now.

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  Nice, good for you.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  And...

• 1:10:09Speaker 00

  Where'd you go?

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  I went to London and Paris with my brother.

• 1:10:13Speaker 00

  That's awesome.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  It was really great, got to see family out there that I haven't seen in a while.

• 1:10:15Speaker 00

  Oh, that's awesome, good for you.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  That, even said though, a part of me feels, feels like the pull because I had to miss the Oscars, I had to miss South by Southwest. Those types of things and like taking vacations and having that like pull and dichotomy. What's your advice on that?

• 1:10:33Speaker 00

  I don't struggle with that. I like taking vacations. But to your point, I don't take them when there's like things like that. Like, if there's like, I don't take them during like Super Bowl when that's a business thing for me. I love late August. Cause the whole world shut down.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  So you work your schedule?

• 1:10:48Speaker 00

  I work my schedule. Now, I also have two children, so there's a lot of the school dynamics or some of that. But, yes, in general. I don't take vacations when the world is active. I love the last 2 weeks of the year, like you know that Christmas, New Years. I'm obsessed now with the last 2 weeks of August because America's become a little like Europe and we're kind of like bougie and chilling those last 2 weeks. I love a good Thanksgiving week because Americans have gotten soft and we don't even really work on Tuesday or Wednesday, let alone Thursday and Friday. So it's like kinda, the world is only really on on that Monday, so I'm like, "That's awesome." And actually, in fact, I just said to myself, "You know what, I'm gonna do better next year on the 4-day weekends." I'm a work on the 4-day weekends guy.

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  Columbus Indigenous, or Presidents, or Martin, like, I'd never do that Monday, Tuesday thing. Uh, but I want to next year. I want to be able to spend some more time with family on that 4-day weekend and work it in. I'm working so hard, so effectively, so productively, most of the year. I want to find more pockets. But I would struggle, given that I have so much responsibility, to do, to your point, a random week. Because my problem is, if I take a random, if I take next week off, do you know what happens in my life? I come back to a disaster.

• 1:12:04Speaker 00

  So I'm stressed the whole fucking week that I'm off, that I'm coming back Monday and I'm dead. I missed every day at school because there was nothing to come back to. This is awesome. If, if, by the way, if I worked somewhere, I would take off all the time. But for me, because I'm at the top and I'm the entrepreneur, I'm the owner and the operator. And I have responsibility, and I could be on call any time, like, God forbid something terrible could happen. Like, our building could have a fire in, in our Thailand office. Like, I'm, there's, I'm never really off. I'm in firefighter mode, so... What's nice about, let's say, the week before Labor Day, is when I am off that week, even if I'm checking it just a little bit, there's only so little that's building up because everybody else is chilling.

• 1:12:45Speaker 00

  In fact, if we can all put our hands in right now, 8 billion of us, all in the pot, everyone put their hands out, that the whole world is on vacation in July, I'd be pumped. Pumped!

• 1:13:00Speaker 00

  Fuck it, July and August. I'd be pumped. Like, ready? Three-day work weeks. Fine by me. It's just that I can't be off when it's on because it's a heavy cost.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  That makes sense, yeah. You said something that was really interesting during one of the interviews. You said you're trying to become one of the greatest entrepreneurs of all time. My question is, is how do you know when you've done that?

• 1:13:24Speaker 00

  I will never know. It'll be subjective. I do not believe making the most money makes you that. I don't think Elon or Bezos or Zucks are that, though all of those guys, you know, have created profoundly interesting companies.

• 1:13:38Speaker 00

  You know, the way I think about that is, I'd like to inspire the most positive entrepreneurial behavior of all time.

• 1:13:46Speaker 00

  Back to the sandcastle. I would like to create the most entrepreneurs, or help the most entrepreneurs, and help them from a mental health and lack of anxiety and enjoying entrepreneurship the way I do. Comma, I'd also like to build some of the biggest businesses of all time. If I build B-Friends into Disney or Pokemon, I'm in the mix. You know, like, especially with all the other stuff. So, you know, I want to challenge myself, like the game. How good of a skier am I? How good of a skateboarder am I? How good of a video game player am I? How good at basketball am I? It's that me versus me thing. And then I think I've been a pretty bright voice in entrepreneurship. I think I'm unique in the last 15 years of entrepreneurship. I think I do talk about things differently, subtly, and I'm proud of that.

• 1:14:31Speaker 00

  And there's others that do too, but... I feel happy with the deposit that I've put into the world. And I'd like to do more of it. And I think, you know, unfortunately, I feel like what I preach is needed even more now than five years ago. And I'd like it to be the other way. I'd like the world to get a little less anxious and a little lighter, but like... I feel a sense of responsibility of talking about love and hope and optimism. But, you know me, accountability, like, I'm not here to coddle. It's not charity, you know, there's a reason there's something called charity, and there's a reason there's something called entrepreneurship, and they're different.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  I also feel like it's interesting for V Friends specifically to go the similar route of Pokemon and Disney by, because kids connect with what they are kids, and when they get older, it becomes nostalgia.

• 1:15:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  And I think that that is incredibly smart, because you said, I've always believed that nostalgia is one of the greatest assets of our time, and I think that you've said that in the past. It's very interesting of how you're going about it. And I think, once the stories of all these individual characters come across, I think that's where we're gonna connect.

• 1:15:40Speaker 00

  That's why the comic, if you're a comic fan, or if you're into anime, or manga, or nerd culture, please, please go to V E E Friends, vfriends.com/comics. You'll see how I'm starting to develop it. And by the way, this is, by the way, back to you liking music? I'm about to tell you the coolest thing that's about to happen in my career. People don't think of me as a creative. Like, not a, not a influen, like, I am inherently very creative. Like, these comic books, these origin stories, like, I'm a real storyteller. Like, really not seen to the world, more in my family. Like, I'm excited about it. I think people that are into comics culture, or character development, when they read these comics, I think they'll be impressed, and I think they'd be stunned of how much of it comes out of here.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  Speaking of not being seen as a creative, do you have any advice for anyone out there who wants to be a creative?

• 1:16:27Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, it's practice. I mean, again, I think self-awareness is huge. Like, I think one of the reasons there's so much anxiety in the world is a lot of people want to be what they want to be, not being self-aware of who they are. Like, I also, listen, I want to be the quarterback of the New York Jets. Let me be very clear. I want to be, I want to be the quarterback of the New York Jets. I am not the quarterback of the New York Jets, right? And so, I think that, you know, if you want to be a creative, let's start with what I grew up with, which is closer to the music stuff. And now we're in the entrepreneurial era. When I was growing up, kids wanted to be rock stars.

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:17:09Speaker 00

  They wanted to be rock stars bad. And I listened to a lot of bad music in middle school and high school of my buddies who thought they were gonna be fucking Axl Rose. And then hip-hop started to really come, or Dr. Dre, or Snoop Dogg. Yeah, definitely pop stars were so big. Michael Jackson, Prince, Madonna. They were the OGs. And then, you know, into Britney and all the boy bands of the late 90s. You know, and then how it's happening with entrepreneurship and influencers. People want to be an influencer, people want to be, you know, an entrepreneur. Here's what I would say. If you're creative and you're listening and you're shy, which means you're potentially insecure about people's judgment

• 1:17:51Speaker 00

  about your paintings, or your drawings, or your music. I don't know, like, like fucking... Mark Twain it, like hide behind AI. I don't know, I don't give a fuck. Like, get your shit out. Get your shit out. Create an account that is not even, looks like it's you. Just post it. If you feel so bad if people think it's dumb or stupid, hide, but fucking get it out. And then you'll unhide once you realize there are people that like it. But if you're delusional in your creativity, listen to the audience. The audience is the only one that's right, not even you.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Do you think there's a point where you're early and the audience may not be the right audience?

• 1:18:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's called conviction and patience. Sure do, I sure do. I think conviction and patience, you know. But I think there are many people that are still putting out rap songs on SoundCloud nine years later, and they still can't break a thousand listens. It's like, hey, man, like, there is a place... By the way, if you enjoy doing it as a hobby, that's amazing. But if you're, if you're like, literally telling your boys, like, you're the next Drake. Like, and we all see that, right? Like, you gotta get out of delusion. You know, optimism is amazing, delusion's a vulnerability.

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  Behind the Wall...

• 1:19:11Speaker 00

  That was a good one, right? You like that? That was a bar, right? I agree.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  Behind the Wall was started with the goal of inspiring every underdog to go for it. As someone who was making videos in their room with an iPhone, recording their laptop screen, made 5,000 videos before having the first interview. I got to interview some of my musical heroes like Ryan Tedder, Coldplay, Benny Blanco. And now having the chance to talk to one of the first people who was like, "Go post on TikTok," is so incredible. And I'm so grateful for this opportunity. I wanted to start something new.

• 1:19:44Speaker 00

  Okay, nice.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  I don't have a name for it yet, but I bought a paper, like a brick.

• 1:19:54Speaker 00

  A brick?

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  And what I'm gonna do is, I wanna start a thing where whenever I get a studio in the future, maybe not, maybe just in the home.

• 1:20:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:20:02Speaker 01

  For the people that I interview, I want them to like leave a quote, like a message, a piece of advice, and then sign it.

• 1:20:08Speaker 00

  Thank you, I'm humbled.

• 1:20:13Speaker 00

  This is the actual wall. The name of this is The Actual Wall. Not Behind the... Fuck, man, this is... I'm actually strong these days, this is heavy.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  I have Sharpie or markers.

• 1:20:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'll go Sharpie. I'm gonna go with green, that is my color. Oh, this is white? What's going on? What's going on here? Let's go with this, okay, no worries.

• 1:20:52Speaker 00

  I wrote "Always Say Maybe." Something I've been thinking a lot about recently.

• 1:20:59Speaker 00

  I believe that the world is now filled with unlimited people that say no to everything. That cynicism is having a very good run. And I hate cynicism. And I think fear and insecurity and judgment and envy and jealousy are leading so many people to no. And I would say to everybody who's listening, especially now that I'm getting more and more sense of you, I'm pretty excited about this, because I have a sense there's a group of people that listen to this show because of you that were similar to where you used to be or things of that nature. You at some point said "Maybe."

• 1:21:35Speaker 00

  Right?

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:36Speaker 00

  Right? There's no way we're sitting here without it.

• 1:21:39Speaker 00

  And I would just say that everybody is saying no to things. I'll give a good one, especially looking at some youngsters. Do you know, all of you, all of you, were scared to ask someone out, or do, or like, hit on someone, or say what's up to someone, and actually, one of those people would have said yes? And that is now lost.

• 1:22:03Speaker 00

  And if you would have said maybe and did it, yeah, you'd have some memories of a bunch of rejections, but they would be all offset by the memory of the one yes. Saying maybe with the hope of yes, versus saying no, which means immediately it's a loss. Saying no is an immediate loss. Saying maybe is just stories over beers when you're old. More importantly, it leads to the best yeses of your life. Always say maybe.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  I love it. Thank you so much, Gary.

• 1:22:34Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me. Such a pleasure. Congrats. Thank you. Hey, everybody, if you enjoyed this podcast, please go back and look at the prior episodes. They're loaded. I appreciate your attention, and thanks for being part of the show.

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