Your Brain Doesn’t Work the Way You Think | Freakonomics Radio

David Eagleman upends myths and describes the vast possibilities of a brainscape that even neuroscientists are only beginning to understand. Steve Levitt interviews him in this special episode of People I (Mostly) Admire. You can find the transcript and show notes for this episode on our website here: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/your-brain-doesnt-work-the-way-you-think/ FOLLOW FREAKONOMICS RADIO: YouTube: https://freak.ws/3yIl6dl Apple Podcasts: https://freak.ws/3yAvQh0 Spotify: https://freak.ws/3TsdCmV ABOUT FREAKONOMICS RADIO: Discover the hidden side of everything with host Stephen J. Dubner, co-author of the Freakonomics books. Each week, Dubner speaks with Nobel laureates and provocateurs, intellectuals and entrepreneurs, and various other underachievers to uncover things you always thought you knew (but didn’t) and things you never thought you wanted to know (but do) — from the economics of sleep to the future of education, from markets for marriage to the surprising utility of wolves. ABOUT THE FREAKONOMICS RADIO NETWORK: Freakonomics began as a book, which led to a blog, a documentary film, more books, a pair of pants, and in 2010, a podcast called Freakonomics Radio. Hosted by Stephen J. Dubner, it’s one of the most popular podcasts in the world, with a reputation for storytelling that is both rigorous and entertaining. Its archive of more than 500 episodes is available, for free, on any podcast app, and the show airs weekly on NPR stations. Freakonomics Radio is now the flagship show of the Freakonomics Radio Network, which includes the podcasts No Stupid Questions, People I (Mostly) Admire, and The Economics of Everyday Things. FREAKONOMICS RADIO NETWORK PODCASTS: Freakonomics Radio: https://freakonomics.com/series/freakonomics-radio/ No Stupid Questions: https://freakonomics.com/series/nsq/ People I (Mostly) Admire: https://freakonomics.com/series/people-i-mostly-admire/ The Economics of Everyday Things: https://freakonomics.com/series/everyday-things/ Special series: https://freakonomics.com/topics/ CONNECT WITH US: [email protected] https://twitter.com/freakonomics https://www.instagram.com/freakonomics/ https://www.facebook.com/freakonomics/ https://www.tiktok.com/@freakonomicsradio https://www.linkedin.com/company/freakonomics-media Subscribe to our newsletter: http://eepurl.com/bKm0cf

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey there. It's Stephen Dubner. Today, a holiday treat, a bonus episode from People I Mostly Admire, one of the other shows we make here at the Freakonomics Radio Network. It is an interview show hosted by Steve Levitt, my Freakonomics friend and co-author, who is an economics professor emeritus now at the University of Chicago. On this episode, Levitt interviews David Eagleman, a neuroscientist, entrepreneur, and author of several books, including Live Wired: The Inside Story of the Ever-Changing Brain. It is a fascinating conversation. You are going to love it. To hear more conversations like this, follow People I Mostly Admire in your podcast app. Okay, that's it from me. Here is Steve Levitt.

• 0:58Steve Levitt?

  I love podcast guests who change the way I think about some important aspect of the world. A great example is my guest today, David Eagleman. He's a Stanford neuroscientist whose work on brain plasticity has completely transformed my understanding of the human brain and its possibilities.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  The human brain is about three pounds. It's locked in silence and darkness. It has no idea where the information is coming from because everything is just electrical spikes and also chemical releases as a result of those spikes. And so what you have in there is this giant symphony of electrical activity going on, and its job is to create a model of the outside world.

• 1:42Speaker 03

  Welcome to People I Mostly Admire with Steve Levitt.

• 1:49Steve Levitt?

  According to Eagleman, the brain is constantly trying to predict the world around it. But of course, the world is unpredictable and surprising, so the brain is constantly updating its model. The capacity of our brains to be ever-changing is usually referred to as plasticity, but Eagleman offers another term: live-wired. That's where our conversation begins.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Plasticity is the term used in the field because the great neuroscientist or psychologist, actually, William James coined the term because he was impressed with the way that plastic gets manufactured, where you mold it into a shape and it holds on to that shape. And he thought, that's kind of like what the brain does. The great trick that Mother Nature figured out was to drop us into the world half-baked. If you look at the way an alligator drops into the world, it essentially is pre-programmed. It eats, mates, sleeps, does whatever it's doing. But we spend our first several years absorbing the world around us, based on our neighborhood and our moment in time and our culture and our friends and our universities. We absorb all of that such that we can then springboard

• 3:00Speaker 02

  off of that and create our own things. There are many things that are essentially pre-programmed in us, but we are incredibly flexible. And that is the key about live wiring. When I ask you to think of the name of your fifth grade teacher, you might be able to pull that up, even though it's been years since you saw that fifth grade teacher. But somehow there was a change made in your brain and that stayed in place. You've got 86 billion neurons. Each neuron is as complicated as a city. This entire forest of neurons, every moment of your life is changing. It's reconfiguring, it's strengthening connections here and there. It's actually unplugging over here and replugging over there. And so that's why I've started

• 3:44Speaker 02

  to feel that the term plasticity is maybe under-reporting what's going on. And so that's why I may have the term live wiring.

• 3:51Steve Levitt?

  When I went to school, I feel like they taught me the brain was organized around things like senses and emotions, that there were these different parts of the brain that were good for those things. But you make the case that there's a very different organization of the brain.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  It is organized around the senses, but the interesting thing is that the cortex, this wrinkly outer bit, is actually a one-trick pony. It doesn't matter what you plug in, it'll say, okay, got it. I'll just wrap myself around that data and figure out what to do with that data. It turns out that in Almost everybody, you have functioning eyeballs that plug into the back of the head. And so we end up calling the back part of the brain, the visual cortex. We call this part the auditory cortex and this the somatosensory cortex that takes in information from the body and so on. So what you learned back in high school or college is correct most of the time. But what it overlooks is the fact that the brain is so flexible. If a person goes blind or is born blind, that part of the brain that we're calling

• 4:51Speaker 02

  the visual cortex, that gets taken over by hearing, by touch, by other things. And so it's no longer visual cortex. The same neurons that are there are now doing a totally different job.

• 5:01Steve Levitt?

  So let me pose a question to listeners. Imagine you have a newborn baby and he or she looks absolutely flawless on the outside. But then upon examination, the doctors discover that half of his or her brain is just missing, a complete hemisphere of the brain. It's never developed. It's just empty space. I would expect that would be a fatal defect or best the child would be growing up profoundly mentally disabled.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Turns out the kid will be just fine. You can be born without half the brain, or you can do what's called a hemispherectomy, which happens to children who have something called Rasmussen's encephalitis, which is a form of epilepsy that spreads from one hemisphere to the other. The surgical intervention for that is to remove half the brain. You can just imagine as a parent, the horror you would feel if your child had to go in for something like that. But you know what? Kid's just fine. I can't take my laptop and rip out half the motherboard and expect it to still function. But with the brain, with a live wired system, it'll work.

• 6:04Steve Levitt?

  So I first came to your work because I was so blown away by the idea of human echolocation.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:10Steve Levitt?

  Only to discover that echolocation is only the tip of the iceberg. But could you talk just a bit about echolocation? How quickly with training, it can start to substitute for sight?

• 6:21Speaker 02

  So it turns out that blind people can make all kinds of sounds, either with their mouth, like clicking. Or the tip of their cane, or snapping their fingers, anything like this. And they can get really good at determining what is coming back as echoes and figure out, oh, okay, this is an open space in front of me. Here, there's something in front of me. It's probably a parked car. And oh, there's a little gap between two parked cars here, so I can go in here. The key is the visual part of the brain is no longer being used because for whatever reason, there's no information coming down those pipelines anymore. So that part of the brain is taken over by audition, by hearing and by touch and other things. What happens is that the blind person becomes really good at these other things because they've just devoted more real estate to it.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  And as a result, they can pick up on all kinds of cues that would be very difficult for me and you because our hearing just isn't that good.

• 7:14Steve Levitt?

  And then in these studies, you put a blindfold on a person for two or three days and you try to teach them echolocation. If I understand correctly, even over that time scale, the echolocation starts taking over the visual part of the brain. Is that a fair assessment?

• 7:31Speaker 02

  That is exactly right. This was my colleagues at Harvard. They did this over the course of five days. They demonstrated that people could get really good at, there are actually a number of studies like this, they can get really good at reading Braille, they can do things like echolocation. And the speed of it was sort of the surprise. But the real surprise for me came along when they blindfolded people tightly and put them in the brain scanner and they were making sounds or touching the hand. And they were starting to see activity in the visual cortex after 60 minutes of being blind.

• 8:06Steve Levitt?

  So in your book, you talk about REM sleep. And honestly, if I had sat down and tried to come up with an explanation of REM sleep, I could have listed a thousand ideas. Your pet theory would not be one of them. So explain what REM sleep is and then tell me why you think we do it.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  REM sleep is rapid eye movement sleep. We have this every night, about every 90 minutes. And that's when you dream. So if you wake someone up when their eyes are moving rapidly and you say, hey, what are you thinking about? They'll say, whoa, I was just riding a camel across the meadow. But if you wake them up at other parts of their sleep, they typically won't have anything going on. So that's how we know we dream during REM sleep. But here's the key. My student and I realized that at nighttime, when the planet rotates, we spend half our time in darkness. And obviously, we're very used to this electricity blessed world. But think about this in historical time, over the course of hundreds of millions of years. It's really dark. I mean, half the time you are in blackness. Now, you can still hear and touch and taste and smell in the dark.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  But the visual system is at a disadvantage whenever the planet rotates into darkness. And so, given the rapidity with which other systems can encroach on that, what we realized is it needs a way of defending itself against takeover every single night. And that's what dreams are about. So what happens is you have these midbrain mechanisms that simply blast random activity into the visual cortex every 90 minutes during the night. And when you get activity in the visual cortex, you say, oh, I'm seeing things. And because the brain is a storyteller, you can't activate all the stuff without feeling like there's a whole story going on there. But the fascinating thing is, when you look at this circuitry carefully, it's super specific,

• 9:51Speaker 02

  much more specific than almost anything else in the brain. It's only hitting the primary visual cortex and nothing else. And so that led us to a completely new theory about dreams. We studied 25 different species of primates. And we looked at the amount of REM sleep they have every night. And we also looked at how plastic they are as a species. It turns out that the amount of dream sleep that a creature has exactly correlates with how plastic they are. Which is to say, if your visual system is in danger of getting taken over because your brain is very flexible, then you have to have more dream sleep. And by the way, when you look at human infants, they have tons of dream sleep at the beginning, when their brains are very plastic.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  And as they age, the amount of dream sleep goes down.

• 10:37Steve Levitt?

  Have you convinced the sleep scientist this is true? Or is this just you believing it right now?

• 10:43Speaker 02

  At the moment, there are 19 papers that have cited this and discussed this. And I think it's right. I mean, like, everything can be wrong. Everything is provisional, but it's the single theory that is quantitative. It's the single theory about dreams that says, not only here is a idea for why we dream, but we can compare across species and the predictions match exactly. No one would have suspected that you'd see a relationship between, you know, how long it takes you to walk or reach adolescence and how much dream sleep you have. But it turns out that is spot on.

• 11:21Steve Levitt?

  So we talked about echolocation, which uses sound to accomplish tasks that are usually done by vision. And you've started a company called NeoSensory, which uses touch to accomplish tasks that are usually done with hearing. Can you explain the science behind that?

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Given that all the data running around in the brain is just data and the brain doesn't know where it came from, all it knows is, oh, here are electrical spikes and it tries to figure out what to do with it. I got really interested in this idea of sensory substitution, which is can you push information into the brain via an unusual channel? Originally, we built a vest that was covered with vibratory motors and we captured sound for people who are deaf. So the vest captures sound, breaks it up from high to low frequency, and you're feeling the sound on your torso. By the way, this is exactly what the inner ear does. It breaks up sound from high to low frequency and ships that off to the brain. So we're just transferring the inner ear to the skin of the torso and it worked.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  People who are deaf could come to hear the world that way. So I spun this out of my lab as a company, NeoSensory, and we shrunk the vest down to a wristband and we're on wrists of deaf people all over the world. The other alternative for somebody who's deaf is a cochlear implant, an invasive surgery. This is much cheaper and does as good a job.

• 12:44Steve Levitt?

  Just make sure I understand it. Sounds happen and this wristband.

• 12:49Steve Levitt?

  Here's the sounds and then shoots electrical impulses into your wrist that correspond to the high and low frequency.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  It's actually just vibratory motor. So it's just like the buzzer in your cell phone, but we have a string of these buzzers all along your wrist. And we're actually taking advantage of an illusion, which is if I have two motors next to each other and I stimulate them both, you will feel one virtual point right in between. And as I change the strength of those two motors relative to each other, I can move that point around. So we're actually stimulating 128 virtual points along the wrist.

• 13:24Steve Levitt?

  Do people train? You give them very direct feedback or is it more organic?

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Great question. It started off where we were doing a lot of training on people. And what we realized is it's all the same if we just let it be organic. The key is we just encourage people be in the world and that's it. You see the dog's mouth moving and you feel the barking on your wrist, or you close the door and you feel that on your wrist, or you say something, you know, most deaf people can speak and they know what their motor output is and they're feeling the input.

• 13:55Steve Levitt?

  Okay, so hearing their own voice for the first time.

• 13:58Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 13:59Steve Levitt?

  Through this. Oh God, yeah, that's interesting.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  And by the way, that's how you learned how to use your ears too. You know, when you're a baby, you're watching your mother's mouth move and you're hearing data coming in your ears and you clap your hands together and you hear something in your ears. It's the same idea. You're just training up correlations in the brain about, oh, this visual thing seems to always go with that auditory stimulus.

• 14:20Steve Levitt?

  So then it seems like if I'm deaf and I see the dog's mouth moving and I now associate that with the sound, do the people say that they hear the sound where the dog is or is the sound coming from the wrist?

• 14:33Speaker 02

  For the first few months, you're hearing it on your wrist. You can get pretty good at these correlations. But then after about six months, if I ask somebody, when the dog barks, do you feel something on your wrist? And you think, okay, what was that? That must've been a dog bark. And then you look for the dog and they say, no, I just hear the dog out there. And that sounds so crazy, but remember that's what your ears are doing. Your ears are capturing vibrations at the eardrum that moves through the middle ear to the inner ear, breaks up to different frequencies, goes off to your brain, goes to your auditory cord. It's this giant pathway of things. And yet, even though you're hearing my voice right now inside your head, you think I'm somewhere else. And that's exactly what happens irrespective of how you feed the data in.

• 15:18Steve Levitt?

  So you also have a product that helps with tinnitus. Could you explain both what that is and how your product helps?

• 15:25Speaker 02

  So tinnitus is a ringing in the ears. It's like beep. And about 15% of the population has this. And for some people, it's really, really bad. It turns out there is a mechanism for helping with tinnitus, which has to do with playing tones and then matching that with stimulation on the skin. People wear the wristband. It's exactly the same wristband, but we have the phone play tones, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. And you're feeling that all over your wrist. And you just do that for 10 minutes a day and it drives down the tinnitus. Now, why does that work? There are various theories on this, but I think the simplest version is that your brain is figuring out,

• 16:05Speaker 02

  okay, real sounds always cause this correlating vibration on my wrist, but a fake sound, beep, you know, this thing in my head, that doesn't have any verification on the wrist. And so that must not be a real sound. So because of issues of brain plasticity, the brain just reduces the strength of the tinnitus because it learns that it's not getting any confirmation that that's a real world sound.

• 16:30Steve Levitt?

  Now, how did you figure out that this bracelet could be used for this?

• 16:34Speaker 02

  This was discovered by a woman named Susan Shore, who's a researcher who discovered this about a decade ago. She was using electrical shocks on the tongue. And there's actually another company that spun out called Lanier that does this with sounds in the ear and shocks on the tongue. They had an argument that they think it had to be touched from the head and the neck. And I didn't buy that at all. And that's why I tried that with the wristband. So this was not an original idea for us, except to try this on the wrist. And it works equally as well.

• 17:01Steve Levitt?

  So what we're talking about is substituting between senses. Are there other forms of this products that are currently available to consumers or likely to become available soon in this space?

• 17:13Speaker 02

  For people who are blind, for example, there are a few different approaches to this. One is called the brain port. And that's where for a blind person, they have a little camera on their glasses and that gets turned into. Little electrical stimulation on the tongue. So you're wearing this little electro tactile grid on your tongue. And it tastes like Pop Rocks sort of in your mouth. Blind people can get pretty good at this. They can navigate complex obstacle courses or throw a ball into a basket at a distance because they can come to see the world through their tongue, which if that sounds crazy, it's the same thing as seeing it through these two spheres that are embedded in your skull. It's just capturing photons and information about them, figuring out where the edges are,

• 17:58Speaker 02

  and then shipping that back to the brain. The brain can figure that out. There's also a colleague of mine that makes an app called Voice. It uses the phone's camera and it turns that into soundscape. So if you're moving the camera around, you're hearing

• 18:15Speaker 02

  you know, it sounds like a strange cacophony, but it doesn't take long even for you as a sighted person to get used to this and say, oh, okay, I'm turning the visual world into sound and it's starting to make sense. When I pass over an edge or when I zoom into something, the pitch changes, the volume changes, there's all kinds of changes in the sound quality that tells you, oh yeah, now I'm getting close to something, now I'm getting far. And here's what the world looks like in sound.

• 18:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up after the break.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  There's really no shortage of theoretical ideas in neuroscience, but fundamentally, we don't have enough data.

• 18:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  More of Steve Levitt's conversation with David Eagleman in this special episode of People I Mostly Admire.

• 19:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, back now to this special episode of People I Mostly Admire. This is my Freakonomics friend and co-author Steve Levitt in conversation with the neuroscientist David Eagleman.

• 19:27Steve Levitt?

  Elon Musk's company Neuralink has gotten a ton of attention lately. Could you explain what they're trying to do and whether you think that's a promising avenue to explore?

• 19:36Speaker 02

  What they're doing is they're putting electrodes into the brain to read from and talk to the neurons there.

• 19:43Steve Levitt?

  So what we've been talking about so far has been sending signals to the brain. But what Neuralink is trying to do is take signals out of the brain. Is that right?

• 19:50Speaker 02

  That is correct. Everything we've been talking about so far was sensory substitution. That's a way of pushing information in and non-invasive. And what Neuralink is, you have to drill a hole in the head to get to the brain itself. But then you can do reading and writing invasively. That actually has been going on for 60 years. The language of the brain is electrical stimulation. And so with a little tiny wire, essentially, you can zap a neuron and make it pop off, or you can listen to when it's chattering along going, "papapapapapapapapapapapapapap." There's nothing actually new about what Neuralink is doing, except that they're making a one-ton robot that sews the electrodes into the brain so it can do it smaller and tighter and faster

• 20:34Speaker 02

  than a neurosurgeon can. And by the way, there are a lot of great companies doing this sort of thing with electrodes. As people get access to the brain, we're finally getting to a point, we're not there yet, but we're getting to a point where we'll finally be able to push theory forward. There's really no shortage of theoretical ideas in neuroscience. But fundamentally, we don't have enough data because, as I mentioned, you've got these 86 billion neurons all doing their thing, and we have never measured what all these things are doing at the same time. So we have technologies like functional magnetic resonance imaging, FMRI, which measures

• 21:16Speaker 02

  big blobby volumes of, "Ooh, there was some activity there and some activity there." But that doesn't tell us what's happening at the level of individual neurons. We can currently measure some individual neurons, but not many of them. Be like if an alien asked one person in New York City, hey, what's going on here? And then tried to extrapolate to understand the entire economy of New York City and how that's all working. So I think we're finally getting closer to the point where we'll have real data about, wow, this is what thousands or eventually hundreds of thousands or millions of neurons are actually doing in real time at the same moment. And then we'll be able to really get progress. I actually think the future is not in things like Neuralink, but the next level past that,

• 22:00Speaker 02

  which is nano robotics. This is all theoretical right now, but I don't think this is more than 20, 30 years off, where you do three dimensional printing, atomically precise, you make molecular robots, hundreds of millions of these, and then you put them in a capsule and you swallow the capsule and these little robots swim around and they go into your neurons, these cells in your brain. And from there, they can send out little signals saying, hey, this neuron just fired. And once we have that sort of thing, then we can say non-invasively, here's what all these neurons are doing at the same time. And then we'll really understand the brain.

• 22:37Steve Levitt?

  I've worn a continuous glucose monitor a few times. So you stick this thing in your arm and you leave it there for 10 days. And every five minutes, it gives you a reading of your blood glucose level. It gives you direct feedback on how your body responds to the foods you eat, also to stress or lack of sleep that you simply don't get otherwise. I learned more about my metabolism in 10 days than I had over the entire rest of my life combined. What you're talking about with these nano robots is obviously in the future, but is there anything now that I can buy and I can strap on my head? And I know it's not going to be individual neurons, but that would allow me to get feedback

• 23:17Steve Levitt?

  about my brainwaves and be able to learn in that same way I do with a glucose monitor?

• 23:23Speaker 02

  What we have now is EEG, electroencephalography. And there are several really good companies like Muse and Emotive that have come out with at-home methods. You just strap this thing on your head and you can measure what's going on with your brainwaves. The problem is that brainwaves are still pretty distant from the activity of 86 billion chattering neurons. An analogy would be if you went to your favorite baseball stadium and you attached a few microphones to the outside of the stadium and you listened to a baseball game, but all you could hear with these microphones is occasionally the crack of the bat and the roar of the crowd.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  And then your job is to reconstruct what baseball is, just from these few little signals you're getting. So I'm afraid it's still a pretty crude technology.

• 24:13Steve Levitt?

  I could imagine that I would put one of these EEGs on and I would just find some feeling I liked, bliss or peace, or maybe it's a feeling induced by drugs and alcohol. And I would be able to see what my brain patterns looked like in those states. Then I could sit around and try to work towards reproducing those same patterns. Now, it might not actually lead to anything good, but in your professional opinion, total waste of time you're trying to do that?

• 24:43Speaker 02

  The fact is, if you felt good at some moment in your life and you sat around and tried to reproduce that, I think you'd do just as well, thinking about that moment, trying to put yourself in that state, rather than trying to match a squiggly line.

• 24:56Steve Levitt?

  You know, I'm a big believer in data, though, and it seems like somebody should be building AI systems that are able to look at those squiggles and give me feedback. The thing that I'd so hard about the brain is that we don't get direct feedback about what's going on, which is how the brain is so good at what it does. If the brain didn't get feedback from the world about what it was doing, it wouldn't be any good at predicting things. So I'm trying to find a way that I can get feedback. But it sounds like you're saying, I gotta live for 20 more years if I want to hope to do that?

• 25:28Speaker 02

  I think that's right. I mean, there's also this very deep question about what kind of feedback is useful for you. Most of the action in your brain is happening unconsciously. It's happening well below the surface of your awareness or your ability to access it. And the fact is that your brain works much better that way. Do you play tennis, for example?

• 25:47Steve Levitt?

  Not well.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Or golf?

• 25:48Steve Levitt?

  Golf I play.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Okay, good. So if I ask you, hey, Stephen, tell me exactly how you swing that golf club. The more you start thinking about it, the worse you're going to be at it because consciousness, when it starts poking around in areas that it doesn't belong, it's only going to make things worse. And so it is an interesting question about the kind of things that we want to be more conscious of. I'm trying some of these experiments now, actually using my wristband, wearing EEG and getting a summarized feedback on the wrist. So I don't have to stare at a screen, but as I'm walking around during the day, I have a sense of what's going on with this, or with the smartwatch, having a sense of what's going on with my physiology. I'm not sure yet whether it's useful or whether those things are unconscious

• 26:30Speaker 02

  because Mother Nature figured out a long time ago that it's just as well if it remains unconscious. One thing I'm doing, which is just a wacky experiment, is to try it. The smartwatch is measuring all these things. We have that data going out, but the key is you have someone elsewhere the wristband, like your spouse wear the smartwatch and you're feeling her physiology. And I'm trying to figure out, is this useful to be tapped in someone else's physiology? I don't know if this is good or bad for marriages, but...

• 26:57Steve Levitt?

  What a nightmare.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  But I'm just trying to really get at this question of these unconscious signals that we experience. Is it better if they're exposed or better to not expose them?

• 27:07Steve Levitt?

  What have you found empirically?

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Empirically, what I've found is that married couples don't want to wear it.

• 27:19Steve Levitt?

  So in my lived experience, I walk around and there's almost nonstop chatter in my head. It's like there's a narrator who's commenting on what I'm observing in the world. My particular voice does a lot of rehearsing of what I'm going to say out loud in the future and a lot of rehashing of past social interactions. Other people have voices in their head that are constantly criticizing and belittling them. But either way, there's both a voice that's talking and there's also some other entity in my head that's listening to that voice and reacting. Does neuroscience have an explanation for this sort of thing?

• 27:56Speaker 02

  In my book, Incognito, the way I cast the whole thing is that the right way to think about the brain is like a team of rivals. You know, Lincoln, when he set up his presidential cabinet, he set up several rivals in it and they were all functioning as a team. That's really what's going on under the hood in your head is you've got all these drives that want different things all the time. So if I put a slice of chocolate cake in front of you, Stephen, part of your brain says, oh, that's a good energy source. Let's eat it. Part of your brain says, no, don't eat it. It'll make me overweight. Part of your brain says, okay, I'll eat it, but I'll go to the gym tonight. And the question is, who is talking with whom here? It's all you, but it's different parts of you. All these drives are constantly arguing it out.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  It's, by the way, generating activity in the same parts of the brain as listening and speaking that you would normally do. It's just internal before anything comes out.

• 28:48Steve Levitt?

  Language is such an effective form of communicating and of summarizing information that at least my impression inside my head is that a lot of this is being mediated through language. But I also have this impression that there are parts of my brain that are not very good with language. Maybe I'm crazy, but I have this working theory that the language parts of my brain have really co-opted power. The non-speaking parts of my brain, they actually feel to me like the good parts of me, the interesting parts of me, but I feel like they're essentially held hostage by the language parts. Does that make any sense?

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Well, this might be a good reason for you to keep pursuing possible ways to tap into your brain data. And by the way, it turns out that the internal voice is on a big spectrum across the population, which is to say, some people like you have a very loud internal radio. I happen to be at the other end of the spectrum where I have no internal radio at all. I never hear anything in my head. That's called an endophasia. But everyone is somewhere along this spectrum. One of the points that I've always really concentrated on neuroscience is what are the actual differences between people? Traditionally, that's been looked at in terms of disease states. But the question is, from person to person who are in the normal part of the distribution, what are the differences between us? It turns out those are manifold.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  So take something like how clearly you visualize when you imagine something. So if I ask you to imagine a dog running across a flowery meadow towards a cat, you might have something like a movie in your head. Other people have no image at all. They understand it conceptually, but they don't have any image in their head. And it turns out, when you carefully study this, the whole population is smeared across the spectrum. So our internal lives from person to person can be quite different. So when you talk about the spectrum, it makes me think of synesthesia. Could you explain what that is and how that works? So I've spent about 25 years now studying synesthesia. And that has to do with some percentage of the population has a mixture of the senses.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  They might look at letters on a page and that triggers a color experience for them. Or they hear music and that causes them to see some visual. Or they put some taste in their mouth and it causes them to have a feeling on their fingertips. There are dozens and dozens of forms of synesthesia, but what they all have to do with is a cross blending of things that are normally separate in the rest of the population. And what share of the population has these patterns? So it's about 3% of the population that has colored letters or colored weekdays or months or numbers. It was big. It's interesting. I wouldn't have thought it was so big. The crazy part is that if you have synesthesia, it probably has never struck you that 97% of the population does not see the world the way that you see it.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Everyone's got their own story going on inside and it's rare that we stop to consider the possibility that other people do not have the same reality that we do. And what's going on in the brain? In the case of synesthesia, it's just a little bit of crosstalk between two areas that in the rest of the population tend to be separate but neighboring. So it's like porous borders between two countries. They just get a little bit of data leakage and that's what causes them to have a joint sensation of something.

• 32:09Steve Levitt?

  People make a big deal out of it when they talk about musicians having this and they imply that it's helpful, that it makes them better musicians. Do you think there's truth to that or is it just that if 3% of the population has this, then there are going to be some great musicians among them?

• 32:24Speaker 02

  I suspect it's the latter, which is to say, everyone loves pointing out synesthetic musicians, but no one has done a study on how many deep sea divers have synesthesia or how many accountants have synesthesia. And so we don't really know if it's disproportionate among musicians.

• 32:40Steve Levitt?

  So you've created this database of people who have the condition and you find a pattern that is completely and totally bizarre. And that's that there's a big bunch of people who associate the letter A with red, B with orange, C with yellow, it goes on and on, and they start repeating it G. In general, though, you don't see any patterns at all. People can connect these colors and letters in any way. Do you remember when you first found this pattern and what your thought was?

• 33:10Speaker 02

  So typically, as you said, it's totally idiosyncratic. Each synesthet has his or her own colors for letters. So my A might be yellow, your A is purple and so on. And then what happened is with two colleagues of mine at Stanford, we found in this database of tens of thousands of synesthetes that I've collected over the years, we found that starting in the late 60s, there was some percentage of synesthetes who happened to share exactly the same colors. These synesthetes were in different locations, but they all had the same thing. And then that percentage rose to about 15% in the mid 70s.

• 33:43Steve Levitt?

  So when you saw this, you must have been thinking, my God, this is important, right?

• 33:47Speaker 02

  Exactly right. The question is, how could these people be sharing the same pattern? What we had always suspected is that maybe there was some imprinting that happens, which is to say, there's a quilt in your grandmother's house that has a red A and a yellow B and a purple C and so on. But, you know. Everyone has different things that they grow up with as little kids. And so it was strange that this was going on. The punchline is that we realized that this is the colors of the Fisher Price magnet set on the refrigerators that were popular during the seventies and eighties and then essentially died out. And so it turns out that when I look across all these tens of thousands of synesthetes, it's just those people who were kids in the late sixties and seventies and eighties that imprinted on the Fisher Price magnet set.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  And that's their synesthesia. And then as its popularity died out, there aren't anymore who have that particular pattern.

• 34:45Steve Levitt?

  Now, I have to imagine that the way we teach in traditional classrooms with a teacher or professor at a blackboard lecturing to a huge group of passive students. As a neuroscientist, that must make you cringe, right?

• 34:59Speaker 02

  It does increasingly, yes.

• 35:01Steve Levitt?

  How should we teach?

• 35:02Speaker 02

  I think the next generation is going to be smarter than we are, simply because of the broadness of the diet that they can consume. Whenever they're curious about something, they jump on the internet. They get the answer straight away or from Alexa or from ChatGPT. They just get the answers and that is massively useful for a few reasons. One is that when you are curious about something, you have the right cocktail of neurotransmitters present to make that information stick. So if you get the answer to something in the context of your curiosity, then it's going to stay with you. Whereas you and I grew up in an era where we had lots of just in case information.

• 35:39Steve Levitt?

  What do you mean by that?

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Oh, you know, like just in case you ever need to know that the Battle of Hastings happened in 1066. Here you go.

• 35:45Steve Levitt?

  And you want to contrast that with just in time information?

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 35:48Steve Levitt?

  I need to know how to fix my car. And so the internet tells me, and then I can really remember it because I need it.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  That's exactly it. And so, look, you know, for all of us with kids, I know you've got kids, I've got kids, and we feel like, oh, my kid's on YouTube and wasting time. There's a lot of amazing resources and things that they learn on YouTube or even on TikTok, anywhere. There's lots of garbage, of course, but it's better than what we grew up with. When you and I wanted to know something, we would ask our mothers to drive us down to the library and we would thumb through the card catalog and hope there was something on it there that wasn't too outdated.

• 36:25Steve Levitt?

  You were more ambitious than me. I would just ask my mother, and I have since learned that every single thing my mother taught me was completely wrong. But I still believe them. Because of this part of the brain that locks in things that you learn long ago, I still have to fight every day against the falsehoods my mother taught me. I wish I had told her to take me to the library.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  My mother was a biology teacher and my father was a psychiatrist. And so they had all kinds of good information. I'm just super optimistic about the next generation of kids. Now, as far as how we teach, things got complicated with the advent of Google, and now it's twice as complicated with ChatGPT. Happily, we already learned these lessons 20 years ago. What we need to do is just change the way that we ask questions of students. We can no longer just assume that fill in the blank or even just writing a paper on something is the optimal way to have them learn something. But instead, they need to do interactive projects, like run little experiments with each other. And, you know, the kind of thing that you and I both love to do in our careers, which is, okay, go

• 37:27Speaker 02

  out and find this data and run this experiment, see what happens here. That's the kind of opportunities that kids will have now.

• 37:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  You are listening to a special bonus episode of People I Mostly Admire with Steve Levitt and the neuroscientist David Eagleman. After the break, what are large language models missing?

• 37:49Speaker 02

  It has no theory of mind. It has no physical model of the world, the way that we do.

• 37:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's coming up after the break.

• 38:10Steve Levitt?

  David Eagleman is a professor, a CEO, leader of a nonprofit called the Center for Science and Law, host of TV shows on PBS and Netflix, and the founder of Possibillionism.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Like every curious person trying to figure out what we're doing here, what's going on, it just feels like there are two stories. Either there's some religion story or there's the story of strict atheism, which I tend to agree with, but it tends to come with this thing of, "Look, we've got it all figured out. There's nothing more to ask here." There is a middle position which people call agnosticism, but usually that means, "I don't know, I'm not committing to one thing or the other." I got interested in defining this new thing that I call Possibillionism, which is to try to go out there and do what a scientist does, which is an active exploration of the possibility space. What the heck is going on here? We live in such a big and mysterious cosmos. Everything about our existence is sort of weird.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  Obviously, the whole Judeo-Christian tradition, that's one little point in that possibility space, or the possibility that there's absolutely nothing and we're just atoms and we die. But there's lots of other possibilities. And so I'm not willing to commit to one team or the other without having sufficient evidence. So that's why I call myself a possibillion.

• 39:28Steve Levitt?

  And so in support of Possibillionism, maybe a better name could be in order, you wrote a book called SUM, that's S-U-M. So it's SUM: Forty Tales From the Afterlives. How do you describe the book to people?

• 39:44Speaker 02

  I call it literary fiction. It's 40 short stories that are all mutually exclusive. They're all pretty funny, I would like to think, but they're also kind of gut-wrenching. And what I'm doing is shining the flashlight around the possibility space. None of them are meant to be taken seriously. But what the exercise of having 40 completely different stories gives us is a sense of, "Wow, actually, there's a lot that we don't know here." In some of the stories, God is a female. In some stories... God is a married couple. In some stories, God is a species of dim-witted creatures. In one story, God is actually the size of a bacterium and doesn't know that we exist. And in lots of stories, there's no God at all. That book is something I wrote over the course of seven years

• 40:29Speaker 02

  and became an international bestseller. It's really had a life to it that I wouldn't have ever guessed.

• 40:36Steve Levitt?

  When I heard about the book, I saw the subtitle. I thought, I have zero interest in reading a book about the afterlife. I totally misunderstood what the book was about. And then I certainly didn't understand that "sum" was Latin.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  "Sum" actually I chose because, among other things, that's the title story. In the afterlife, you relive your life, but all the moments that share a quality are grouped together. So you spend three months waiting in line and you spend 900 hours sitting on the toilet and you spend 30 years sleeping.

• 41:10Steve Levitt?

  All in a row.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Exactly. And this amount of time looking for lost items and this amount of time realizing you've forgotten someone's name and this amount of time falling and so on. Part of why I used the title "sum" is because of the sum of events in your life like that. Part of it was because Coach Do or Go Soon. So it ended up just being the perfect title for me, even if it did lose a couple of readers there.

• 41:39Steve Levitt?

  People are super excited right now about these generative AI models, the large language models. What's your take on it?

• 41:47Speaker 02

  Essentially, these artificial neural networks took off from a very simplified version of the brain, which is, hey, look, you've got units and they're connected. And what if we can change the strength between these connections? And in a very short time, that has now become this thing that has read everything ever written on the planet and can give extraordinary answers. But it's not yet the brain or anything like it. It's just taking the very first idea about the brain and running with it. What a large language model does not have is an internal model of the world. It's just acting as a statistical parrot. It's saying, okay, given these words, what is the next word most likely to be, given everything that I've ever read on the planet? And so it's really good at that, but it has no model of the world, no physical model.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  And so things that a six-year-old can answer, it is stuck on. Now, this is not a criticism of it in the sense that it can do all kinds of amazing stuff and it's going to change the world. But it's not the brain yet, and there's still plenty of work to be done to get something that actually acts like the brain.

• 42:49Steve Levitt?

  Do you think that it is a solvable problem to give these models a theory of mind, a model of the world?

• 42:55Speaker 02

  I suspect so, because there are 8.2 billion of us who have this functioning in our brains. And as far as we can tell, we're just made of physical stuff. We're just very sophisticated algorithms, and it's just a matter of cracking what that algorithm is.

• 43:09Steve Levitt?

  If we were to come back in 100 years, what do you think would be most different? I know that's a hard prediction to make, but what do you see is transforming most in the areas you work in?

• 43:19Speaker 02

  The big textbook that we have in our field is called Principles of Neuroscience, and it's about 900 pages. And it's not actually principles, it's just a data dump of all this crazy stuff we know. And in 100 years, I expect it'll be like 90 pages. We'll have things where we put big theoretical frameworks together. We say, ah, okay, look, all this other stuff, these are just expressions of this basic principle that we have now figured out.

• 43:43Steve Levitt?

  Do you pay much attention to behavioral economics?

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Yes, I do.

• 43:46Steve Levitt?

  What do you think of it?

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Oh, it's great. And that's probably the direction that a lot of fields will go is how do humans actually behave? One of the big things that I find most interesting about behavioral economics comes back to this issue about the team of rivals. When people measure in the brain, how we actually make decisions about whatever, there are totally separable networks going on. Some networks care about the valuation of something, the price point. You have totally other networks that care about the anticipated emotional experience about something. You have other networks that care about the social context, like what do my friends think about this? You have mechanisms that care about short term gratification. You have other mechanisms that are thinking about the long term, what

• 44:30Speaker 02

  kind of person do I want to be? All these things are battling it out under the hood. It's like the Three Stooges sticking each other in the eye and wrestling each other's arms and stuff. But what's fascinating is when you're standing in the grocery store aisle, trying to decide which flavor of ice cream you're going to buy, you don't know about these raging battles happening under the hood. You just stand there for a while, and then you say, okay, I'll grab this one over here.

• 44:54Steve Levitt?

  There was a point in time among economists that there was a lot of optimism that we could really nail macroeconomics, inflation, and

• 45:02Steve Levitt?

  Interest rates and whatnot, and we could really understand how the system worked. And I think there's been a real step back from that. The view now is, look, it's enormously complex system. And we've really, I guess, given up in the short run. Are you at all worried that's where we're going with the brain?

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Oh, gosh, no. And the reason is because we've got all these billions of brains running around. What that tells us is it has to be pretty simple in principle. You've got 19,000 genes. That's all you've got. Something about it has to be as simple as falling off a log for it to work out very well so often, billions of times.

• 45:43Steve Levitt?

  They say as you get older, it's important to keep challenging your brain by learning new things, like a foreign language. I can't say I found learning German to be all that much fun, and I definitely have not turned out to be very good at it. So I've been looking for a new brain challenge, and I have to say, I find echolocation very intriguing. How cool would it be to be able to see via sound? I suspect, though, that my aptitude for echolocation will be on par with my aptitude for German. So if you see me covered in bruises, you'll know why. If you want to learn more about David Eagleman's ideas, I really enjoyed a couple of his mini books, like Live Wired, which talks about his brain research, and some, Forty Tales from the Afterlives, his book of speculative fiction.

• 46:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner again. I hope you enjoyed this special episode of People I Mostly Admire. I loved it, and I would suggest you go right now to your podcast app and follow the show, People I Mostly Admire. We will be back very soon with more Freakonomics Radio. Until then, take care of yourself, and if you can, someone else, too.

• 46:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio and People I Mostly Admire are produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. This episode was produced by Morgan Levy with help from Lyric Bowditch and Daniel Moritz Rabson. It was mixed by Jasmine Klinger. Our staff also includes Alina Coleman, Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abawaji, Eleanor Osborne, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Jason Gambrell, Jeremy Johnston, John Schnars, Neil Carruth, Rebecca Lee Douglas, Sarah Lilly, Teo Jacobs, and Zach Lepinski. Our composer is Luis Guerra. As always, thank you for listening.

• 47:31Steve Levitt?

  David, you got your quick time going? Um, I do... now.

• 47:40Speaker 05

  The Freakonomics Radio Network. The Hidden Side of Everything.

• 47:48Speaker 03

  Stitcher.