The Dangers of Safety (Rebroadcast)

What do NASCAR drivers, Glenn Beck and the hit men of the NFL have in common?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. The best investments are the ones you make in yourself, and no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. With more than 200 online degree programs, no set class times, and low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University is built to fit your life today and set you up for success tomorrow. Education is an investment. Why not make it a smart one? Apply for free at SNHU.edu/freakonomics. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds, because switching your home and auto insurance is better than

• 0:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  cutting down on the things you love, like those iced lattes that help you get ready to face the day. So, switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it, which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example?

• 1:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, PNC Bank did since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely-not-YOLO type. PNC Bank. Brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work is a new way to work in ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work can pull info from across your apps and connect to your tools to help you create finished work.

• 2:07Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, podcast listeners. I've been reading this book called Petty. It's a biography of Tom Petty, written by Warren Zanes. Warren used to be in a band called the Del Fuegos. I used to be in a band called The Right Profile, and we played some dates with the Fuegos. I loved them. I loved Tom Petty, too. And reading Warren's book about Tom Petty brought back all these memories about what it means to be in a band. So it's hard, kind of like being married to three or four people at the same time. But also, it's your gang. You share things with them that you will never share with anyone again. The terrible, terrible gigs where they threw bottles at you, the occasional triumph.

• 3:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  The stories so weird that no one outside the band would ever believe them, so you never tell them to anyone else. And of course, the music, especially the early stuff you wrote, when you thought you knew what you were doing, but then, as the years go on and you get a little bit better, it becomes obvious you didn't know what you were doing. So you still listen to that early stuff sometimes, kind of the way you look at pictures of yourself back in junior high. Is that really me? Come on. But you can't stop listening. And thinking all these thoughts got me digging in the Freakonomics Radio archives. So I went back, and back, and back, and I finally got to the very first episode we ever put out. It was early 2010.

• 3:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  The episode is called "The Dangers of Safety." And since it's August, and we were looking to put out an episode from the archives, I thought, why not? How much can they possibly hate it? Well, you'll let us know, won't you? Everything in this episode was up to date at the time, but now, a lot of it isn't. I'll give you some specifics later.

• 4:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  What comes to mind, risk-wise, when I say the following things? Shark attacks.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  The biggest joke of all time.

• 4:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right. Terrorist attacks?

• 4:40Speaker 01

  The biggest waste of time ever.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  This is Freakonomics Radio, a new podcast about the hidden side of everything. In this episode, what do NASCAR drivers, Glenn Beck, and the hitmen of the NFL have in common? Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 5:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  How about the risk of just something almost everybody does every day? Driving your car.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Incredibly low. That if nothing were to kill you, except driving your car, and all you did was drive your car day and night, day and night, day and night, you'd expect to live for 250 years.

• 5:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Steve Levitt is the guy I write books with, Freakonomics and Super Freakonomics. He's a professor at the University of Chicago. And he looks like a professor. Skinny, thick glasses, comfortable shoes. No one's ever going to mistake him for a tough guy. But there aren't many things he's afraid of. You know why? Because he's a data guy who spent a lot of time figuring out what'll kill you and what won't. So he thinks most of our fears are vastly overrated.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  I think it's a survival instinct, for one thing. You think about spiders, and tigers, and rhinos. I mean, things that we shouldn't be afraid of, bugs. But we're terrified of them. But I think people are predisposed to be frightened of things. And in a world of media where we're now bombarded, I mean, I think kidnapping is a great example. People used to be kidnapped a lot more than they are today. But you wouldn't hear about the little blonde girl who's being kidnapped in Utah. If you lived in Chicago or in New York, but now a little blonde girl gets kidnapped and it's national news. The media promotes fears because people love to read about scary stuff, like horror movies.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Who in their right mind, you know, if someone came from Mars would think that horror movies would be this incredibly successful genre where people would try to scare themselves a lot? People are afraid of needles. Don't go to the hospital and have the needles stuck in them just so they can get the fear. It's strange that how people's brains work that way.

• 6:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  You know what's even stranger? Football. Instead of running away from scary things that are highly improbable, football players run into each other on purpose, really hard, without fear.

• 7:07Speaker 03

  I'm Terrence Newman of the Dallas Cowboys.

• 7:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Terrence Newman is one of the hardest hitters in the NFL. You might think he's a big guy, but he's not. He's about 5'11", 190 pounds. That said, he is a rock-hard dude. Or, as he puts it, "swole," as in swollen with muscle. On the field, Newman is famous for launching his body like a missile. If you're a cornerback, what's your favorite thing to do?

• 7:35Speaker 03

  Favorite thing is obviously get interceptions and running back for touchdowns.

• 7:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right, second favorite thing, then?

• 7:42Speaker 03

  Second favorite thing is blowing up receivers.

• 7:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right, and for those who don't know what blowing up a receiver means, what does that mean exactly?

• 7:49Speaker 03

  Or a running back, but it just means catching them with a good, solid hit and basically de-clater. When you hit them and, you know, they go backwards and you go running over top of them and celebrating and going crazy and all that stuff.

• 8:03Speaker 04

  Robert C. Cantu, C-A-N-T-U.

• 8:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  And how old are you?

• 8:08Speaker 04

  Older than you might think, 71.

• 8:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Robert Cantu is a professor of neurosurgery at Boston University, and he specializes in the study of traumatic encephalopathy, or major blows to the brain. So, let's talk about the NFL. I love the NFL. You love the NFL?

• 8:26Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 8:27Speaker 05

  The buildup is over, and away we go in Super Bowl.

• 8:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Dr. Cantu and I are not alone. The Super Bowl's become a national holiday, more people watching on TV than any other show. Millions of kids grow up with the dream of playing in the NFL, my own son included. He's nine years old, 4'2", 54 pounds. He ain't exactly swole.

• 8:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  When is the last time that you know of that there's been an on the field death in football?

• 8:58Speaker 04

  There have been on the field deaths in football every single year since 1931, with the exception of 1990. Last year, there were five on field deaths. This year, there have been two. Both, all five last year and both this year were due to brain injuries. So fatalities still occur, but they occur at relatively low rates compared with 36, 37, 38 deaths a year that were seen 40 years ago.

• 9:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Four or five deaths? That's about the same number of people killed every year around the world in shark attacks. But who's afraid of football? Cantu says most football deaths occur in high school and college. There hasn't been a single on-field death in the NFL. I'm guessing if there was, if a cornerback like Terrence Newman blew up a receiver like Chad Ochocinco on national TV, and he never got up again, people would be a lot more afraid of football than they are.

• 10:05Speaker 06

  I don't, I don't play with fear. I guess you get a little nervous about knowing your assignments or getting beat on certain things, but in terms of contact or anything like that, I'm not scared of any of that.

• 10:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Quinton Michael plays strong safety for the Philadelphia Eagles. He's roughly the same size as Terrence Newman. He too is known for hitting very, very hard.

• 10:29Speaker 06

  The hardest hit I ever had was actually this year. It was me and a guy named Justin Fargus. He plays running back for the Oakland Raiders. And basically what happened, he had a toss, and he was wide open, you know, basically screaming up the field. I was in the deep cover, too. And I kind of, it was funny because he was running towards the sideline, and I was running towards him, and we're both heading towards the sideline. And it was almost like neither one of us was going to back down because we knew it was going to be either a big collision or not. Because he could have ran out, he could have ran out of bounds, but I just knew he was going to try to run me over, just watching him in film. So essentially what happened was, we basically... Ran full speed into each other and pretty much knocked each other out. And I tried to get up a little too soon.

• 11:14Speaker 06

  And I fell back down and I was wobbly knee. And eventually the trainers pulled me out and, you know, they're like, you can't go back in right now. And actually, he, he came out for a few plays too, so we both knocked each other out, so.

• 11:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  But you tried to stay in the game.

• 11:27Speaker 06

  I did, you know, as a, as a, as a competitor, you know, you don't, because you never know what that, like, if he's gonna get up or not. So you wanna be the first one to get up and you wanna make sure that you didn't take, you know, the loss right there. So essentially, I, I think I won because I got up before he did, even though I did, you know, kinda wobbly knee and went back down, so.

• 11:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  What did your actual head feel like afterwards, like immediately afterwards and then later on?

• 11:51Speaker 06

  It was really, it's a really odd feeling. Um, the first thing you get is, uh, your, everything starts to vibrate, it's like vroom. Like if you laid your head on your cellphone and put it on vibrate and someone called you, that's what it felt like for me. And so the instantly, I actually saw it on film instantly, like I grabbed my helmet and I tried to steady everything. And then after that initial, um, vibration, um, it's almost like you're kinda in a dream. You're just kinda floating and your legs are like jello, you're trying to stand up. And your, your mind is trying to tell your body to do it, but your body and everything is disconnected. So you, you pretty much just fall flat back on your face, you know?

• 12:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ouch. Our brains are designed to float around inside the skull to survive the daily bumps of life. But playing football's different. It's one tough guy running full speed into another guy traveling just as fast in the opposite direction. I asked Dr. Cantu what can happen to the brain in a collision like that.

• 12:54Speaker 04

  Well, the best analogy, or at least one that I think is useful, is to think of jello in a bowl. And if you hit the bowl very forcefully, you'll see the jello oscillate.

• 13:06Speaker 04

  And if you put the Jell-O into a bowl that is elliptical in shape, not round, and hit it, because you'll invariably hit off-center, you'll see that the Jell-O moves forwards and backwards and it also spins around in the bowl. And those are the primary forces that are imparted to the brain. The linear forces are those that are in one plane, front and back, or side to side. And the spinning forces are the rotational forces. And those combined forces cause shearing and straining of brain tissue. And that in turn leads to a metabolic cascade of dysfunction that is what we refer to as

• 13:51Speaker 04

  a concussion.

• 13:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  A metabolic cascade of dysfunction. In a big hit on the football field, the only thing standing between your brain and a beating like that is your helmet. Dr. Cantu is also affiliated with NOXIE, the National Operating Committee on Standards for Athletic Equipment. It's a group that tries to make football helmets safer.

• 14:14Speaker 04

  Well, helmets are better today than ever before. The actual athletic equipment that is on the market today is better than athletic equipment that's been on the market in the past. But, the problem is, what are you asking that athletic equipment to do? And if you're asking it to prevent skull fractures, and if you're asking it to prevent most serious subdural hematomas, it does a stellar job. But if you're asking it to prevent concussion, it can't do it.

• 14:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, let's see if we have this right. Modern helmets do a good job of preventing skull fractures and on-field deaths. That's why those numbers are way down historically. But getting lots of concussions isn't very healthy either. To prevent them, Dr. Kan Tu could make a more cushioned helmet, but then you might be worried about skull fractures again. And then there's this problem. If you did give football players a more heavily cushioned helmet, what are they going to do with it? A lot of people think the biggest problem in the game today is that players use their helmets not so much as protection, but as a weapon.

• 15:26Speaker 04

  The way, for instance, in football, in my opinion, that we're going to have to address this problem is to eliminate the helmet as the initial point of contact in the act of tackling and even to a certain extent in blocking as well. Quite frankly, when people didn't have the helmets of the security that there are today, didn't have the face mask, and you had to worry about your nose winding up in your ear from using your face in a tackle, you didn't use your face, obviously.

• 16:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  So as the safety equipment gets better, our behavior becomes more aggressive?

• 16:08Speaker 04

  Absolutely. Very much more aggressive, very much more violent. We've seen the same thing happen in ice hockey as well. And when you put face and head protection on people, they're not as worried about taking blows to that area. And so the aggressive nature of the activity is greatly enhanced.

• 16:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  So wait a minute. Let's figure this out. If the helmet, which we think of as a safety device, is being used as a weapon, why not get rid of the weapon? There are sports we play without helmets, rugby, Australian Rules football. What happens if you try to play American football like they did in the old days, without a helmet? Here's Quinton Michael again.

• 16:52Speaker 06

  It would probably be... There'd be a lot less head injuries. I know that for a fact. And I can tell that the tackling would actually be a lot different. You know, you can't... You know, nobody wants to mess their face up willingly. So you wouldn't go in headfirst. You wouldn't go in trying to destroy somebody. You'd go in just to get them on the ground, you know. And, you know, maybe it wouldn't be as exciting, or I'm not sure. But I know there definitely would be, there wouldn't be as many injuries.

• 17:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  Would it be as much fun? I assume you really like to hit, right?

• 17:25Speaker 06

  Yeah. I like the contact. That's, that's what makes the game fun, you know. You got these receivers out there taunting you, and you finally get a chance to wallop them, you know. So that's, that's, that's, that's good for me.

• 17:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right. So if, so for someone like you who loves to hit, especially these spindly little receivers who are always yapping, right? And you get your, you get to pay them back once in a while. And if you took away a helmet, right? If you took away helmets, could you still have a lot of fun playing the game?

• 17:53Speaker 06

  Um, I don't think I would.

• 17:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  You have to wonder, if a guy like Quinton Michael doesn't have fun playing football without the amazing collisions, how much fun would we have watching it? And if you think it's fun watching two football players run into each other headfirst at 20 miles an hour, how about 20 cars crashing into each other at 180?

• 18:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. There's no hiding how convenient Southern New Hampshire University makes college. They offer over 80 career-focused graduate programs online. Classes have no set meeting times, so you can balance life and learning, and online tuition rates are some of the lowest in the country, making it all a little more manageable. A school this willing to work with you is worth the investment. Visit SNHU.edu/freakonomics to learn more.

• 19:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on the things you love, like those iced lattes that help you get ready to face the day. So, switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by hotels.com. Hotels.com helps you find and book the right stay for work faster. With business preferences, save your travel must haves like gym access or breakfast just

• 19:45Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 20:07Speaker 02

  From WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 20:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  You are listening to the first Freakonomics Radio episode we ever put out in early 2010. A few things you've already heard need updating. Quentin Michael, then a member of the Philadelphia Eagles, is now out of the NFL. Terrence Newman is still playing, but now he's with the Minnesota Vikings. Robert Cantu is now a senior advisor to the NFL's Head, Neck and Spine Committee, and the whole topic of brain injury has become much more pressing. And when I said about the Super Bowl that, quote, "more people watch it on TV than any other show," I should have said "any other show in the United States" because American football can't really compete with football or soccer. And one more thing, my son is no longer nine years old and 54 pounds.

• 20:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  He's 15, and I have no idea how much he weighs, but his love for football has been eclipsed by his love for, yes, football. Okay, back to the dangers of safety.

• 21:15Speaker 07

  Yeah, I started my career with a bad wreck in 1983 at Daytona.

• 21:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  This is Randy LaJoy. He was a NASCAR driver for about 20 years. He won 15 races and more than $7 million.

• 21:27Speaker 07

  And I was passing Sterling Marlin to qualify for the Daytona 500, and the car hit the bump, got sideways, slid a long ways. And Richard Petty had told me a story two weeks earlier while we were testing. He goes, "Man, you're going to crash down here." He says, "You're going to crash, and when you do this, two things are going to happen." He says, "You're going to either crash real quick and slide a long way, or you're going to slide a long way and crash real hard." He goes, "And if you can remember, before you crash, to reach down and pull your belts as tight as you can get them, and take a deep breath, you'll be a lot better." Well, as I'm sliding, and I see where I'm going to hit,

• 22:10Speaker 07

  I reached down and I tugged on my belts as hard as I could. You know, in your early years, you learn not to let go of the steering wheel. So I put my hand back on the steering wheel. And when I looked out the windshield, and all I could see was sky, I said, "Well, it's about time I need to take a deep breath."

• 22:32Speaker 07

  I woke up in the hospital that night. I had a severe concussion, was dizzy for, you know, some people say I'm still dizzy, but I had a headache for a couple of weeks.

• 22:45Speaker 07

  But, you know, three weeks later, I was back NASCAR North racing, and we won the championship. So, you know, it didn't bother me, it didn't kill me, and I went back to win three races at Daytona.

• 22:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Randy has seen sky, he's seen wall, and he's seen safety gear get better and better. Now that he's retired, he makes super-safe aluminum seats for race cars.

• 23:08Speaker 07

  Some of the equipment, the fire suits and the helmets, were definitely as good as they could have been.

• 23:16Speaker 07

  But one of the things that we have realized is a head and neck restraint, something that holds your head on. Because if your body's strapped in, your head is not attached to anything. And you'll get the Dale Earnhardt, Kenny Irwin, Adam Petty, Tony Roper, Blaise Alexander, I mean, those guys before him.

• 23:37Speaker 07

  That passed away with the same injury that we lost Dale with. You know, once we lost the best we had, NASCAR says, okay, we gotta stop this. So, I mean, years ago, I mean, if something happens, when you put the helmet on and you pull that strap tight, people say your brains go out the window. And that's a very good possibility.

• 23:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Tell me how all this safety in NASCAR, especially since '01, has changed the sport, whether from a spectator perspective or from a strategy perspective or whatnot.

• 24:07Speaker 07

  Well, we're not going to any more funerals, which is good. How it has changed the sport is the new generation drivers, you know, they're not as sore on a Monday or Tuesday as the older generation drivers. You look at a 50-year-old NASCAR driver that's retired, other than Mark Martin, you know, they have trouble tying their own shoes because they're beat up pretty hard, you know. Your body's stretched, they have trouble walking. You know, not a lot of difference than the older football players, you know. I mean, but we didn't get as many concussions as they did, but there's still a lot of guys out there that have hit their head. If I hit my head one more time, I could probably hide my own Easter eggs.

• 24:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, the risk, I guess, is that in other realms, maybe in racing as well, the more safety features you add on, the more reckless or the more aggressive people tend to get. And in racing, there's a lot of aggression already. So, do you think about that? Do you think about the fact that as the walls, the cars, and the equipment get safer, that there's gonna be more aggression in the end?

• 25:12Speaker 07

  Well, I mean, racers were always aggressive. I know the walls that I hit before there were the soft walls, the safer barrier, hurt a lot more. The concrete walls hurt a lot more than that safer barrier does. And one of the things that the drivers of this era haven't felt is really a concrete wall.

• 25:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  It makes sense. If you're not worried about hitting a concrete wall, you might drive a little harder, take a few more chances. If you're all strapped into your car, surrounded by a big exoskeleton, you don't feel so vulnerable anymore.

• 25:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  As a kid, tell me, what was the car you remember driving as a kid in the backseat with your parents? What'd they drive?

• 26:06Speaker 08

  1972 Impala station wagon. I think it was a 72. It was the one, it was a 74, I can't remember. It was the one with the rounded back and the tailgate went down underneath the car? Do you remember that?

• 26:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  No.

• 26:20Speaker 08

  Didn't swing open. Oh, it was ugly.

• 26:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Really?

• 26:22Speaker 08

  Ooh, it was ugly.

• 26:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  You might recognize this voice. It's Glenn Beck, the talk show host.

• 26:27Speaker 08

  Welcome to a special edition of the Glenn Beck Program. I like to call it our Egghead Hour.

• 26:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, compare, now your younger children now are under 10?

• 26:38Speaker 08

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, so compare now the kind of environment you were in safely as a kid.

• 26:44Speaker 08

  No, there's no, I mean, we didn't even wear seat belts. We were, I mean, I remember, you know, sitting next to my dad and, you know, maybe I was eight. I'm like, "Dad, let me drive," you know, and he'd, "Here, steer a little bit." I mean, it was nuts. It was nuts. Now, you know, you know, everybody's belted and, you know, safety harnesses in the car seats. And my wife, we were, where were we? We were someplace recently and this kid was sitting in, must have been, I don't know, about six, and we were at a stoplight

• 27:26Speaker 08

  and she saw the kid stand up out of the seat and lean over the shoulder of her dad who was, you know, driving in the car. And my wife was like, "Oh, my gosh, they're not belted." I mean, it was like, you know, it's, I don't know, we gotta call SWAT. Quick, get the belt police out. I mean, it's like, it happened, you know. We all lived. We survived. It's okay.

• 27:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  These days Beck drives a Mercedes sedan. It's new, shiny and black. Everything is in its place. I hopped a ride home with him the other day. I asked him, "Why'd you buy this car in particular?"

• 28:03Speaker 08

  I was standing in the dealership and it was, because I was looking at an Audi as well, and the guy said to me, he said, "This has some amazing safety features. It knows when the car is going to roll, if your window is rolled down. It immediately rolls your window up. It has the side airbags. Your seats, depending on what the car senses, it's going to do. It puts the seat in the right position." You know, I mean, it makes me want to flip the car. Like, "I'm going to put my seat in the most awkward position and I'm going to flip it."

• 28:48Speaker 08

  This is like the safest car on the road. He used the term "death-proof." But I honestly, I didn't even think about it until I was driving it. And I thought, "I'm taking a corner." I really was taking a corner a little too fast. And I'm like, "I can handle it. What's the worst that can happen?"

• 29:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Glenn Beck buys a car that a salesman calls "death-proof" and finds himself driving a little more recklessly. Football players get better helmets, and they start using them as weapons. Is there a way to describe this behavior? Economists like Steve Levitt know it as "the Pelzman effect."

• 29:31Speaker 01

  So the Pelzman effect, which is named after a good friend of mine, Sam Pelzman, a colleague of mine, one of the most outlandish dressers who's ever walked the earth, is the idea that you can put in a safety device, and people can then feel so much safer in the activity they're engaging in, that they take more and more risk to the point where you actually have the opposite effect, that by putting the safety device, you lead to more people being hurt or killed. And the classic example people talk about is seat belts in cars. And the idea would be, without a seat belt, you feel at risk. With a seat belt, you drive in a much more dangerous fashion, and that could lead to more deaths. Now...

• 30:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  You sound skeptical.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  I do not believe that there ever has been convincing evidence of a single Pelzman effect. Now, there are little bits and pieces of evidence you can find. So for instance, it does seem true that after you put in seat belts in cars, there might have been a miniscule increase in the number of pedestrians who were killed. But that was overwhelmingly swamped by the number of drivers who were not killed and passengers in cars who were not killed because they wear them. One thing that economists understand well is that people respond to incentives. That's what economics is at its root, is trying to understand how people to respond to incentives.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  The Pelzman effect is a very deviant, over-the-top example of that, in which people respond so strongly to the incentives that they actually end up undoing the benefit that the safety device was supposed to have in the first place.

• 31:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  I've got to agree with Levitt, at least when it comes to driving. There are fewer traffic deaths per mile in the US than ever before, and that's because of safety measures like seat belts, not despite them. Sure, Glenn Beck might feel invulnerable in his death-proof car, but since his own safety is at stake here, and that of his wife and kids, he surely doesn't want to get too reckless. But what about safety gear that protects you while harming someone else, like a football helmet? Or what about all the radiation we absorb in medical tests? Radiation that probably causes cancer? And what about a safety net like legalized abortion?

• 31:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  When you can reverse the effect of risky behavior, like unprotected sex, aren't people more likely to engage in such behavior? The fact is that our craving for safety has its costs. The other fact is, we spend way too much time being scared of things like shark attacks and terrorist attacks, things that, in the end, are astronomically unlikely. We're getting more and more hyped up about a world that's less and less dangerous. And you know what's really weird? A lot of the dangerous stuff we do these days, like football, is stuff we do for kicks, not out of necessity, but on our own volition.

• 32:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  If you think about it, risk is becoming a luxury good, kind of like Glenn Beck's death-proof Mercedes.

• 32:42Speaker 08

  What? So I didn't stop at the stoplight and I'm going 190? What? I can flip it? I'll survive? It's the, it's the death-proof car. What a dope.

• 33:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Thanks for listening to our first-ever episode. You can tell we were pretty new to podcasting. I sounded like I was trying out for the high school radio club. Let us know your thoughts on iTunes, where you can also subscribe to this free weekly podcast. You can also catch us on Twitter, Facebook, and at Freakonomics.com. Next week, we are back with a brand-new episode. What happens when a cutting-edge ad agency is hired by an old-school financial services firm to shake up their message?

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's funny. You call it a triangle. I might call it a rock and a hard place.

• 33:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  You hire a Harvard psychologist, of course, as the pitchman.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  It's great to think optimistically, but let's plan for whatever the future might bring.

• 33:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  A smarter way to sell? That's next time on Freakonomics Radio.

• 34:15Speaker 02

  Freakonomics Radio was produced by WNYC and Dubner Productions. This episode was produced by Colin Campbell and me, Molly Webster. It was mixed by Michael Rayfield. Special thanks to Alicia Zuckerman. Our staff includes Greg Rosalsky, Caroline English, Susie Lechtenberg, Merritt Jacob, Christopher Wirth, and Kasia Mahilevich. If you want more Freakonomics Radio, you can subscribe to our podcast on iTunes or go to Freakonomics.com. There you'll find lots of radio, a blog, the books, and more.

• 35:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by EverPure. Is the value of AI not living up to the promise? The problem is probably your data, not your AI models. When it's scattered across different systems, getting your data AI-ready is a challenge. You keep your AI waiting and everything slows down. EverPure unifies your data so you can see it, understand it, and control it all from one simple place and get it AI-ready fast. Unlock the true value of your AI at everpuredata.com. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Ozempic. Innovation happens through rethinking what's possible. And when it comes to GLP-1s, Ozempic pill does just that.

• 35:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Learn more about Ozempic semaglutide tablets, 4 and 9mg, by calling 1-833-OZEMPIC or visit ozempic.com to view the medication guide and ask your doctor what's possible with FDA-approved Ozempic pill. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern Company. The world and its energy needs are always changing. Southern Company's commitment to meeting this demand stays the same. That's because Southern Company believes energy is more than a utility, it's what powers possibilities. So they are looking ahead and investing $80 billion in infrastructure upgrades and are committed to fueling growth in ways that benefit all customers so that reliable and

• 36:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  affordable energy is accessible for generations to come. Go to southerncompany.com to learn more. Southern Company, building the future of energy.

• 36:46Speaker 09

  This episode is brought to you by Charles Schwab. Is there a right time to sell a stock? Are you taking the right risks with your portfolio? Financial decisions can be tricky, and often your own cognitive and emotional biases can lead you astray. Financial Decoder, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, can help. Join host Mark Reapy as he offers practical solutions to help overcome the cognitive and emotional biases that may affect your investing decisions. Listen at schwab.com/financialdecoder.