Make Me a Match | Freakonomics Radio | Episode 209

Sure, markets work well in general. But for some transactions — like school admissions and organ transplants — money alone can’t solve the problem. That’s when you need a market-design wizard like Al Roth. Plus: We hear from a listener who, inspired by this episode, made a remarkable decision. This episode was originally published May 24, 2023. For a full transcript, resources, and more, visit: https://freak.ws/3BTG7mv Photo credit: Audrey Bernstein FOLLOW FREAKONOMICS RADIO: YouTube: https://freak.ws/3yIl6dl Apple Podcasts: https://freak.ws/3yAvQh0 Spotify: https://freak.ws/3TsdCmV ABOUT FREAKONOMICS RADIO: Discover the hidden side of everything with host Stephen J. Dubner, co-author of the Freakonomics books. Each week, Dubner speaks with Nobel laureates and provocateurs, intellectuals and entrepreneurs, and various other underachievers to uncover things you always thought you knew (but didn’t) and things you never thought you wanted to know (but do) — from the economics of sleep to the future of education, from markets for marriage to the surprising utility of wolves. ABOUT THE FREAKONOMICS RADIO NETWORK: Freakonomics began as a book, which led to a blog, a documentary film, more books, a pair of pants, and in 2010, a podcast called Freakonomics Radio. Hosted by Stephen J. Dubner, it’s one of the most popular podcasts in the world, with a reputation for storytelling that is both rigorous and entertaining. Its archive of more than 500 episodes is available, for free, on any podcast app, and the show airs weekly on NPR stations. Freakonomics Radio is now the flagship show of the Freakonomics Radio Network, which includes the podcasts No Stupid Questions, People I (Mostly) Admire, and The Economics of Everyday Things. FREAKONOMICS RADIO NETWORK PODCASTS: Freakonomics Radio: https://freakonomics.com/series/freakonomics-radio/ No Stupid Questions: https://freakonomics.com/series/nsq/ People I (Mostly) Admire: https://freakonomics.com/series/people-i-mostly-admire/ The Economics of Everyday Things: https://freakonomics.com/series/everyday-things/ Special series: https://freakonomics.com/topics/ CONNECT WITH US: [email protected] https://twitter.com/freakonomics https://www.instagram.com/freakonomics/ https://www.facebook.com/freakonomics/ https://www.tiktok.com/@freakonomicsradio https://www.linkedin.com/company/freakonomics-media Subscribe to our newsletter: http://eepurl.com/bKm0cf

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey there. It's Stephen Dubner. Before we get to today's episode, I have a couple announcements. The first is a slight change of plans. Last week, we told you that this week's episode would be about the super agent and dealmaker Ari Emanuel. But that episode just isn't ready yet. It's still in the oven. So you'll be hearing that next week. Here's the other announcement. We recently told you about a special series we're working on, a series about failure. We all know failure can be hard to talk about, but there's also a lot to be learned from it. So we asked you to send in your personal stories. We got a lot of replies, but the vast majority were from men. We know that about half of our listeners are women, but for some reason, those weren't

• 0:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  the listeners who got back to us. It could be that women simply don't fail as much, but we want to hear those stories, too. So if you are female and have any kind of failure story to tell, personal, professional, academic, creative, whatever, we want to hear it. Just send an email to [email protected] with the subject line "Failure." Thanks. Now, about today's show. Last month, the federal government announced plans to modernize the US organ donation system. They want to speed up the process by which organ transplant patients are matched with donated organs. They also want to reduce racial inequities in the system.

• 1:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  When we saw this news, we decided to go into our archive and put together the episode you are about to hear. It is a mashup of a 2015 episode, number 209, called "Make Me a Match," and a portion of a 2016 episode, number 237, which includes a personal story from a listener who was inspired by that earlier episode to make a remarkable decision. All the relevant facts and figures have been updated. As always, thanks for listening.

• 2:11Al Roth?

  Okay, I'm Al Roth and I'm a professor of economics at Stanford.

• 2:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  For many years Roth had taught economics at Harvard, but he and his wife, who's a human factors engineer, had relocated.

• 2:24Al Roth?

  We had just moved into our new apartment. We had moved to Stanford in September of 2012.

• 2:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Shortly thereafter, on October 15th, something memorable happened.

• 2:35Al Roth?

  And my wife woke up around 3:00 in the morning and said, "The phone's ringing." And I woke up and it wasn't ringing anymore. We only had one phone at that point and it was in her office, which was downstairs. So I said to her, "It's not ringing," and I went back to sleep. And she went down and got the phone and it started ringing again. It turns out it's a good thing. They call you back. They don't go down their list. And it was the Nobel Committee.

• 2:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Roth, half asleep, was informed that he, along with Lloyd Shapley, had won the Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in memory of Alfred Nobel, also known as the Nobel Prize in Economics.

• 3:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you think you had a chance?

• 3:18Al Roth?

  You know, it's hard to answer that humbly. So I knew that I was on the big list of people who, if I won a Nobel Prize, it wouldn't cause the Nobel Committee to be embarrassed. The newspapers the next day would not say craziness in Stockholm. But there are many, many people in that category. So indeed, we were asleep. We were not waiting for a call. And it's an interesting call because one of the things they're concerned about, they have a lot of experience with this, is convincing you that it's not a prank. So the person who first spoke to me said, "Congratulations, you've won the Nobel Prize." And then he said, "And I'm here with six of my colleagues and two of them know you and they're going to talk to you now."

• 4:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  To persuade you that this is for real?

• 4:04Al Roth?

  Right.

• 4:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Either that or a very elaborate prank.

• 4:06Al Roth?

  Exactly. But they call you up and they say, "So in half an hour, this is going to happen."

• 4:13Al Roth?

  Get ready. And, you know, I took a shower and got dressed, which was a good thing because there wasn't an opportunity to do that again all day.

• 4:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what was the rest of the day like then?

• 4:20Al Roth?

  Well, so at five minutes, too, someone calls you back. And again, they're still, I guess, concerned that you shouldn't appear confused on the phone. So what she said is she said, "Point your browser to the Nobel site and you will see your name being announced. And then we will come on the line and have a press conference by telephone." So by the time that happened, I was ready. And then the Stanford press office fortunately descended on our house at 4:00 AM and started fielding calls from journalists. You know, they'd say, "Professor Roth is ready now. Are you ready?" And I'd get the phone and I'd get five questions from someone and I would speak to many, many people. Apparently, I mostly answered them very, very seriously, but I told a joke or two that I hadn't intended to tell, that people would say to me, "Oh, I heard you on NPR.

• 5:04Al Roth?

  You said something a little odd." But, and then there was a press conference. And then at 11:00, I had a class. So people seemed a little surprised. But, you know, that's how we ended the press conference. This was a surprise and it was a Monday and I teach on Mondays.

• 5:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Word had traveled to your students by then, I assume?

• 5:19Al Roth?

  It had. There was champagne in the classroom.

• 5:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Very nice. Yeah, yeah.

• 5:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  So what kind of work did Al Roth do to land a Nobel Prize in Economics? Well, it's not the kind of work that typically wins a Nobel. He has helped people who need a kidney transplant find a donor. He's helped new doctors find their first jobs. He's helped high school students in New York City find the right high school, even though Roth himself, who grew up in New York City, dropped out of high school.

• 5:50Al Roth?

  I was a, you know, poor, ungrateful student and didn't appreciate what my teachers were trying to do for me. You should tell all your listeners, they should complete high school.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 6:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Back in 2015, I visited Palo Alto, California, home to Stanford University and a few other things, to talk with Al Roth. He was, as you have heard, a high school dropout. But don't worry, he did go on to college, many, many years of college. Not finishing high school isn't the only odd thing about Al Roth as a Nobel laureate. Consider this: even though he won the prize in economics, and even though he is a professor of economics, he is not technically an economist.

• 7:10Al Roth?

  I mean, my degrees are in engineering. And, you know, I wrote a paper once, a manifesto of market design called The Economist as Engineer.

• 7:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Uh huh, yeah.

• 7:18Al Roth?

  So I think of myself as something like an engineer. I'd like to be an engineer.

• 7:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  A manifesto of market design, Roth calls it. The Nobel Committee's citation noted his "theory of stable allocations and the practice of market design." So what is market design and why can it win you a Nobel Prize?

• 7:37Al Roth?

  Market design is an ancient human activity. You know, when you look at the distribution of stone tools around the Middle East and Europe, you find that long before the invention of agriculture, stone tools were moving thousands of miles from where they were quarried and made. And that's a sign that there were markets for stone tools. There were ways to meet and trade things. And we don't really know much about those markets, but the stone tools, which are very durable, are evidence that markets are older than agriculture. But the Stone Age men who traded those stone tools and weapons had to make markets somehow.

• 8:17Al Roth?

  Had to make them safe. They had to feel confident that they could bring the things they would trade for these stone tools and not be robbed by by guys with stone axes who would take their stuff. And that's been a big part of market design for a long time is is making markets safe. Today, we we think about fraud and identity theft and securing your credit card. But there was a time when kings thought about securing the roads against highwaymen so you wouldn't be waylaid on your way to and from the market. So if if I were the king of England that I wanted to have markets in England, I had to make sure that that the roads were safe to get to the market.

• 8:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Al Roth has now written a book, really wonderful book, I should say. It's called, Who Gets What and Why: The New Economics of Matchmaking and Market Design. If market design is, as Roth says, an ancient human activity, why does someone like him need to get involved? After all, we're told that markets generally organize themselves, right? There are sellers and buyers, supply meeting demand with price being the glue that holds it all together. In this regard, the invention of money was a big breakthrough.

• 9:25Al Roth?

  Barter is very hard because you need a double coincidence of wants. You need to find someone who has what you want and who wants what you have.

• 9:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. You happen to have salt, I happen to have wool, and we each want what the other wants, or we find a third party.

• 9:39Al Roth?

  Right. Well, so finding the third party starts getting you involved in other things. And of course, money is a great market design invention for helping you find third parties because you can sell what you have for money and then go look for what you want.

• 9:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  But there are some transactions, entire realms of transactions, really, where money cannot do what it does in a typical market, where for whatever reason, supply is not allowed to naturally meet demand with price as the arbiter. And that is where someone like Al Roth comes in handy, the economist as engineer, because these atypical markets have to be set up differently. They have to be helped along. This is sometimes called a matching market.

• 10:17Al Roth?

  Matching markets are markets where money, prices, don't do all the work. And some of the markets I've studied, we don't let prices do any of the work. And I like to think of matching markets as markets where you can't just choose what you want. Even if you can afford it, you also have to be chosen. So job markets are like that. Getting into college is like that. Those things cost money, but money doesn't decide who gets into Stanford. Stanford doesn't raise the tuition until supply equals demand and just enough freshmen want to come to to fill the seats. Stanford is expensive, but it it's cheap enough that a lot of people would like to come to Stanford.

• 10:58Al Roth?

  And so Stanford has this whole other set of market institutions, applications and admissions. And and you can't just come to Stanford, you have to be admitted.

• 11:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Or think about this problem, which Al Roth has worked on directly. What is the best way for hospitals to hire newly minted doctors? And for those doctors to find the most appropriate hospital for them to work in? The current system is called the National Resident Matching Program.

• 11:24Al Roth?

  So I got involved in helping it during a crisis in the 1990s. But you have to go back to the 1900s to understand how doctors get jobs. And the 1900s is around the time when the medical degrees, as we know them, the MD degree, became the dominant medical degree. And about 1900, the that's when internships began. So instead of graduating from medical school and immediately beginning to practice medicine, as we say.

• 11:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  A word that's always bothered me.

• 11:53Al Roth?

  Yes.

• 11:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  You should be good at it by now.

• 11:58Al Roth?

  The first job, the the standard first job for medical graduates became what was called an internship and is today called a residency. And that's a job where you work in a hospital and take care of patients under the supervision of a more experienced attending physician. And it's a giant part of the. Professional education of doctors. So it's very important to doctors where they get their internship and residency. And it's very important to hospitals because the interns and residents are a very important part of the labor force of a hospital.

• 12:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  As Roth tells it, there was an arms race between hospitals for the best future doctors. They began grabbing medical students earlier and earlier, sometimes two years before graduation.

• 12:41Al Roth?

  And when you try hiring people two years in advance, it's hard to tell who the good doctors will be. It's also hard for the doctors to tell what kind of jobs they want.

• 12:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  So the medical schools intervened. In 1952, they created the National Resident Matching Program.

• 12:55Al Roth?

  They developed a marketplace that has a form that has survived till today, although my colleagues and I have helped modify it since then. And what that form was, you go on interviews and you find out the salary and the working conditions of the various jobs that you might be offered. And then instead of working the phones and maybe getting an offer that says you have to take it yes or no right now on the phone, what you do is you consider in advance which jobs you would like and you submit a rank order preference. This would be my first choice of the jobs I've interviewed at. Here's my second choice. Here's my third. And the jobs do the same thing. The hospital residency programs do the same thing. And then a match is made in a centralized clearinghouse.

• 13:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  By the 1990s, this system was showing strain. Some people thought the hospitals had too much leverage over the residents. Also, by now, there were a lot more female medical students, some of whom had a significant other who was also a medical student, and such a couple typically wanted to get a residency in the same hospital, or at least in the same region. But the matching program couldn't handle that kind of request, so those candidates might opt out. In 1995, Al Roth was asked to help write an algorithm that could fix these problems. The algorithm worked well, and it now matches about 40,000 applicants each year.

• 14:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  It sounds as though this works pretty well, according to most people involved, yes? Most people involved in this scenario are pretty happy with how it works, correct?

• 14:27Al Roth?

  Well, labor markets are stressful for everyone, so I think you're overstating how happy people are with the labor market, but I think it works very well.

• 14:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  I mean, in the medical residency matching particularly, or at least as an improvement over what was before.

• 14:39Al Roth?

  It's a vast improvement.

• 14:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, here's my question really for you is this, is broader labor markets, if we consider the medical residency matching program relatively successful to what preceded it at least, why is it not used more widely in the labor markets?

• 14:53Al Roth?

  Well, the medical market is an easier one to coordinate than many markets because just about everyone becomes available at the same time when they graduate from medical school and they all start their jobs therefore about the same time in July, so it's a market that can easily move people all at the same time, whereas many markets, think about the market for journalists, they might be hired at different moments and jobs might become available and need to be filled and not be able to wait for you to consider many jobs.

• 15:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, but you and your colleagues are pretty brilliant and you have mathematical backgrounds, I would think you could deal with rolling admissions, is that right? I mean, for all the talk about how modern labor markets have so many mismatches in them, so many people doing jobs that they don't really want to be doing, so many corporations with all these theoretically qualified people out there not being able to find the people to fill them without going through a lot of, going to a lot of trouble, I mean, hiring practices become more and more complicated, it seems is one way to address the matching problem, but it seems as though your complicated mathematical foundation might provide ironically a simpler way to address that problem.

• 16:04Al Roth?

  So I'm not sure that's true. Again, one of the special things about... Residency positions is, although they're very different at different places, they're sort of similar to each other. If you're thinking about, should you be a journalist or an airplane pilot or a chef, you're dealing with very different jobs with very different employers. And one of the things that we do in the medical match is we make all the jobs available at the same time that allows you to consider them, to have preferences over them. That's hard to do if you're thinking about being a chef or an auto mechanic.

• 16:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Sure. I'm curious to know, what's a market or scenario that you've looked at before that you thought, boy, I would love to help fix that one, but either haven't had a shot or maybe tried and failed?

• 16:50Al Roth?

  Well, the markets for new lawyers might fall into that category. And certainly, the fanciest job that top graduates of elite law schools get is a lot like a medical residency. It's a clerkship with an appellate judge. That market is presently in the kind of situation that the doctor market was around 1940, where jobs are being contracted far before law school graduation. And probably a dozen times in the last 30 years, the lawyers have tried to fix this with things like setting dates before which you shouldn't hire and things like that.

• 17:34Al Roth?

  But it turns out it's hard to make rules that judges have to follow. Judges are a law unto themselves. And they break the rules. They cheat. If you know someone who's in law school now who wants a clerkship, they're probably going to get an offer sometime in their second year, you know, so the middle of their second year, a year and a half before they are ready to graduate.

• 17:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what would it take for you to have the authority to get in there and redo that market?

• 17:59Al Roth?

  Well, the question is, is there a desire for judges to coordinate in a way that would control the market? And so far, there hasn't been.

• 18:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you can win all the Nobel prizes you want, and there's a limit to your power nonetheless?

• 18:12Al Roth?

  There is.

• 18:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  As complicated as it may seem to match future lawyers or doctors with their employers, consider an even more complicated match: a person who will die unless they can get a kidney transplant.

• 18:33Speaker 03

  You can't buy a kidney. You can't pay for somebody's college education to get a kidney. You can't buy them a car. It's illegal in the United States to obtain a kidney through any kind of valuable consideration.

• 18:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Ruthann Leishman.

• 18:48Speaker 03

  I'm the program manager for the Kidney Pair Donation Program at the United Network for Organ Sharing.

• 18:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  The United Network for Organ Sharing, or UNOS, maintains the registry of all the people in the US who need an organ transplant, at least for now. The Biden administration's new modernization effort would put some of UNOS's current responsibilities up for bid. According to the National Kidney Foundation, out of the roughly 122,000 people awaiting an organ transplant, more than 100,000 of them, roughly 80%, need a kidney.

• 19:22Speaker 03

  We don't have enough supply of kidneys available. And so the list is ever-growing, but the number of kidneys available for transplant is pretty stagnant.

• 19:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's estimated that 13 people die each day in the US while waiting for a life-saving kidney transplant. And that's because, as Leishman says, the demand for kidneys keeps rising, but the supply hasn't risen to meet it. Now, why is that? Consider where most donated organs come from. They primarily come from cadavers, from people who have died, but who have died under just the right circumstances, from a brain trauma, for instance, to allow their still-functioning organs to be harvested for transplant.

• 20:03Speaker 03

  Only about 1% of the population who die are actually able to donate their organs.

• 20:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  So if you need a heart transplant, let's say, you are waiting for a cadaver organ. But a kidney is different from a heart. Why is that? Because humans are born with two kidneys, and yet we really need only one. Which means that in a country like the US with a few hundred million people, there are potentially a few hundred million spare kidneys out there. When someone has kidney failure, typically both their kidneys fail, so they're left with zero healthy kidneys. Whereas the typical healthy person has a perfectly good spare. So while it might seem that there is a massive demand for donated kidneys, remember, there are more than 100,000 people on the list. The fact is that the potential supply is really massive. Here's Al Roth again.

• 20:54Al Roth?

  If you're healthy enough, you can remain healthy with just one. And that means if someone you love is dying of kidney disease, you could give him a kidney and save his life.

• 21:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  If you happen to be a match.

• 21:05Al Roth?

  If you happen to be a match. And that's where kidney exchange comes in.

• 21:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ah, kidney exchange. Because remember, unlike some markets where price is allowed to let demand meet supply, organ donation is a market that doesn't allow money. As a society, we've decided it isn't right to reimburse people in any way for donating an organ. Although I should say, some economists have argued that we should rethink that. But for now, at least, kidney donation is reliant on altruism. Which, judging by the backlog of kidney patients waiting for an organ, isn't working so well. And that's why Al Roth got involved.

• 21:44Al Roth?

  People often ask me how I got involved in kidney transplantation. And I think the romantic thing that they're hoping I'll say is that I knew someone who was ill, or that I was ill. But that isn't the case at all. I entered through the mathematics.

• 21:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up on Freakonomics Radio, how Al Roth and his comrades used mathematics to save lives.

• 22:05Al Roth?

  And eventually, we wrote a paper about how to organize kidney exchange if you weren't too worried about logistical problems. So we hadn't yet talked to doctors. We hadn't yet talked to surgeons.

• 22:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back.

• 22:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Al Roth, high school dropout, Nobel laureate, author of the book Who Gets What and Why, began working on organ donation more than 40 years ago, as it turned out.

• 22:42Al Roth?

  So, in 1974, in Volume One, Number One of the Journal of Mathematical Economics, Herb Skarff and Lloyd Shapley, with whom I eventually shared a Nobel Prize, wrote an article about how to trade indivisible goods when you couldn't use money.

• 22:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  And this was a theoretical argument? It was entirely, yes?

• 23:02Al Roth?

  Entirely theoretical. And sort of whimsically, they said, "Let's call the objects houses. And let's suppose everyone has a house. And people have preferences over houses, and they can trade houses, but they can't use money. All you can do is barter. You can say, 'I'll trade my house for yours,' or you could do it among three people. You know, I'll give you my house, and you give someone your house, and he gives me his house. That's all you can do. How would trade work?" So they wrote a paper about that. And I had just gotten my PhD in 1974, when this article came out. And I read their article, and I thought, "What an interesting problem to think about, how to trade without money." So I wrote some articles about that, too, with Andy Postlethwaite and--

• 23:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Still theoretical, or did you--

• 23:48Al Roth?

  Entirely theoretical. We were talking about how to trade houses. And of course, no one trades houses without money. I can tell you, I've just bought a house in California, and money played a role. But it's, you know, the way economists learn about things, the way mathematical economists learn about things, is a little bit the way children learn about things. You find toys to play with, and then by playing with the toys, you gain experiences that might help you with other things. So this is a toy, this toy model, that allows you to think about the question of how to trade goods when you can't use money, and when you can't divide the good. You can't say, "You have a big house, and I have a little house, so just give me half of your house for my house." You know, you say, "Houses are indivisible. We have to trade."

• 24:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  In 1982, Roth took a teaching job at the University of Pittsburgh, which happened to have an excellent medical center with a prominent organ transplant program. Roth began thinking about kidneys from the perspective of supply and demand. Again, there's a seemingly huge demand for donated kidneys, but in fact, a much, much larger supply of potential kidneys for donation, since healthy people have two but only need one. So let's say that your spouse, or sibling, or parent, needs a kidney transplant. You could voluntarily undergo surgery to give up one of yours, if that is, you happen to be a biological match.

• 25:19Al Roth?

  If you aren't a match, then you're healthy enough to give someone a kidney, but you can't give the person you love a kidney. So there they are with an indivisible object that we had been calling houses, but now call it a kidney. And here are these incompatible patient-donor pairs, and they have an indivisible object. And it's against the law to buy and sell kidneys for transplantation. So all of a sudden, this toy model that we'd been playing with, that didn't make a lot of sense for houses, because we use money for houses, made sense for kidneys.

• 25:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Was there a lightbulb moment for you where you saw that the kidney was the, you know, concrete version of what had been discussed in this model, or no?

• 25:56Al Roth?

  Again, I'd like to say that there was, but there wasn't.

• 25:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. Were you looking for something to plug into that model?

• 26:02Al Roth?

  I was looking for a teaching tool. I was teaching the model, and my students would say, "This is an interesting model, but isn't it a little silly? We use, here in Pittsburgh, we use money for houses, professor." And I'd say, "Yes, yes, but this is a toy model. You should study it." But there we were in Pittsburgh, and we had all these transplants going on. And I said, "Well, so supposing it's kidneys." So we talked about kidney exchange without my ever thinking it would become a practical thing. I was not seeking to design kidney exchange. But in 1998, I moved to Boston to teach at Harvard. And in 2000... The first kidney exchange in the United States was done in New England.

• 26:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's an exchange between incompatible patient-donor pairs, as Al Roth calls them, two couples, let's say, with the healthy member of each couple agreeing to give a kidney to the needy member of the other couple. The first kidney paired exchange ever took place in South Korea in 1991. The first US exchange that Roth mentioned happened at Rhode Island Hospital in Providence.

• 27:10Al Roth?

  And it was covered in the press, it was an unusual thing. And there I was, I had notes about kidney exchange. So with a former student of mine from Pittsburgh, who was visiting at Harvard, Utku Unver, I said to him, "Look at this, there's kidney exchange. Let's, let's give a class." I was teaching a market design class, "Let's give a class on how we would do kidney exchange."

• 27:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Meaning, this one had happened without your help?

• 27:35Al Roth?

  Yes.

• 27:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  And you looked at this and thought, "Hey, if this is happening on a small scale, we can maybe..."

• 27:40Al Roth?

  We can help organize it. We, we, we have played all these years with toy models. We know how to organize, on a large scale, trade among people dealing with indivisible goods when you can't use money. We know a lot about this.

• 27:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Several other economists began thinking about the problem.

• 27:56Al Roth?

  And eventually, we wrote a paper about how to organize kidney exchange if you weren't too worried about logistical problems. So we hadn't yet talked to doctors, we hadn't yet talked to surgeons, although...

• 28:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Like where the kidney needs to be, at what...

• 28:13Al Roth?

  Right, and just...

• 28:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  What kind the preparation is for surgery and so on?

• 28:16Al Roth?

  And how hard it is to do big exchanges compared to little exchanges. So we sent the paper to all the surgeons we could think of, and only one answered. It was Frank Delmonico.

• 28:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's a good one to have answered, then, it turns out, right?

• 28:32Al Roth?

  Absolutely, absolutely. He was, he was the director of the New England Organ Bank. And he came to lunch, and, and he and I have been colleagues on kidney exchange and other things for, for more than a decade now. But we helped him build the New England program for kidney exchange.

• 28:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  One person that Delmonico hired at the New England Program for Kidney Exchange, or NEPC, was Ruthann Leishman, who helped set up their kidney pair donation program. Remember, the Rhode Island transplant had already happened in 2000.

• 29:02Speaker 03

  But that was just done manually, looking at the blood types of the donors and the candidates. And then in 2004, we started working with Alan using his optimization program.

• 29:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  The idea behind using Al Roth's algorithm was to make it so transplant centers could simply enter the medical and demographic data on potential organ donors and recipients, type in a few keystrokes, and then voila, it would produce a match.

• 29:29Speaker 03

  It would really be impossible to do this by hand because of the number of antibodies that we're talking about and the number of people that we're talking about. We really need a computer to look at it, not just to do any kind of matching, but really to optimize the matching.

• 29:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Matching a potential kidney donor is harder than it sounds. Not only does any given person have one of four major blood types, but we also each have our own stew of antibodies and antigens. We're born with a certain amount of inherited antigens, but when our bodies encounter foreign antigens, we develop antibodies that battle them. This can happen during a blood transfusion, for instance. That was the case with a Minnesota woman named Julie Park.

• 30:08Speaker 04

  What really happened was I broke my leg about, I don't know, five, eight years ago. And unbeknownst to me, they gave me a blood transfusion during it. And that just changed a bunch of antigens and antibodies, enough so that Ray no longer was going to be a match for me.

• 30:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ray is her husband, Ray Book. They've been married for more than 30 years.

• 30:37Speaker 05

  Julie and I went to high school together, didn't know each other, had one date when we were freshmen at the University of Minnesota. I told her I'd get back to her and at our 20-year class reunion, I got back to her.

• 30:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Julie and Ray have one daughter, three grandchildren. Julie has been a type 1 diabetic since she was eight years old.

• 30:57Speaker 04

  And it basically, you know, has caused all my medical issues over the years.

• 31:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Julie got her first kidney transplant when she was 35. It came from a deceased donor.

• 31:09Speaker 04

  And it lasted me quite a while and that was great, like 26-plus years. And then that one, for whatever reason, was failing. So all of a sudden, I needed another one.

• 31:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ray's blood type is O, which means he's a universal donor.

• 31:27Speaker 04

  We were kind of going down that road, thinking he'd be able to donate to me someday.

• 31:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  But after that blood transfusion, Julie was told by her doctors that Ray was no longer a match. In Julie's body, Ray's kidney would have failed. Ruthann Leishman is familiar with Julie's case.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  She had a lot of antibodies. 94% was her antibody level, which means basically she only matches with about 6% of the population.

• 31:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  So if Julie went the route that got her her first donated kidney, it likely would have taken a long time to get another one. Given her particulars, one doctor told her, she could wait five years or more. Years which, as Leishman describes, are hard on anyone with kidney failure.

• 32:15Speaker 03

  And then they're waiting on dialysis and then three days a week, they go into a dialysis unit to have their blood cleared of the toxins that the kidney usually removes. Or they're at home at night doing home peritoneal dialysis. And so that's a nightly ritual for people and.

• 32:37Speaker 03

  It makes it difficult to work. It makes people tired. It makes people sicker. So when they do get a transplant, they may not be in the best health anymore. So it's challenging.

• 32:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  But Julie had the good fortune to be enrolled in a kidney exchange program. And her chances were greatly increased because her husband Ray was offering to donate one of his kidneys to someone, anyone, since he wasn't a match with Julie. This is what's known as being a paired donor, meaning that Ray was offering his kidney under the condition that his wife would receive a kidney donated by someone who was a match with her.

• 33:17Speaker 05

  I wanted to help my wife in any way that I could. So I went out and got tested. All the information went into the computer. We just put it out there into the network. And thank God, there's a network like that. And the algorithm obviously worked.

• 33:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  And it worked fast.

• 33:33Speaker 04

  You know, I went on dialysis November 1st. They called me around Christmas time and, you know, told me, well, it looks like we've got something, you know, on the schedule here. But, you know, you've got to heal this wound you've got on your foot. So I spent the month of January in bed. So anyway, that was January. And then we had the transplant February 5th. So, you know, it certainly wasn't five years or more.

• 34:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  The kidney exchange landscape has changed. There have been consolidations. NEPKEY, for instance, has been dissolved under a push to create a national program. And the numbers have grown. Last year, for instance, there were just over 25,000 kidney transplants in the US. About one-fourth of those came from living donors, not all from kidney paired donation. But still, that's a lot. There's also a special type of living donor that Al Roth's algorithm made possible. Ray Book, you will remember, was a paired donor. But there's also room for what's called a non-directed donor. Ruth Ann Leishman again.

• 34:43Speaker 03

  Somebody who comes into the computer program without a recipient. They don't know anybody who needs a kidney transplant. They just want to donate to somebody and help somebody. Well, they come into the program and they match with a recipient whose donor matches with another recipient, whose donor matches with another recipient. And this can go on and on. And so instead of that non-directed donor helping just one person receive a transplant, they can help two, three, five, 10, 30, 60 people receive a transplant as we go down the line in the chain.

• 35:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  It was one of these incredibly generous people, a non-directed donor, who wound up giving Julie Park a new kidney.

• 35:23Speaker 03

  This chain started with a woman named Jody.

• 35:26Speaker 06

  Hello, my name is Jody Shakely-Wright.

• 35:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Jody Shakely-Wright is 50 years old. At the time, she was living in Charlotte, North Carolina.

• 35:35Speaker 06

  In May 2012, I was working as a telephonic health coach for a company in Dallas, Texas. And I worked from home in Charlotte, had a client who needed to lose 20 pounds so that he could donate a kidney to his sister. And I knew nothing about organ donation at the time. And at first, I wanted to do some internet research to determine how his lifestyle might change after the surgery, as well as what he could expect to do pre-op in order to prepare for the procedure. In my research, I came across something called kidney paired donation. Wasn't really familiar with that at first, but I had also seen around the same time, an episode of Grey's Anatomy. It's actually season five, episode five, if you're interested in checking that out.

• 36:20Speaker 06

  But it's about paired donation. And at first, when I had seen it on Grey's Anatomy, I wasn't really sure if it was a Hollywood thing or if it really existed. So did some more research and sure enough, it was a real thing. And I wasn't looking to donate, but kind of sat back and thought, you know, I'm at a place in my life where I think that I'm healthy enough. I work out of my house, financially stable, and this is something that I could do.

• 36:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  She began working with the transplant center at Piedmont Hospital in Atlanta. She went through a long series of physical and psychological tests.

• 36:57Speaker 06

  They wanted to know if I had considered all of the factors why I should not donate. First and foremost, I was asked to make a few minor lifestyle changes, or at least I felt that they were minor, but things like, they didn't want me to do any death-defying stunts like ride motorcycles or jump out of airplanes. I had already jumped out of an airplane, so that was okay. But with one kidney, you kind of have to take a little bit more care. So basically, you know, they wanted to make sure that I was sure about donating one of my kidneys because I really only have, you know, one to donate. I need the other one to survive. And, you know, they really want you to think about things like, are you going to be okay with the decisions that your recipient makes?

• 37:39Speaker 06

  Meaning that, once you give this kidney up, it's not mine to direct how it's used anymore. And I was really okay with that. That's the recipient's call. I'm giving a gift.

• 37:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  After passing her tests, Shaikli writes, "Information was entered into the computer program used by the kidney pair donor system, and the algorithm went to work on her data." It quickly found a match: Julie Park, in Minnesota. Less than two months later, it was surgery day.

• 38:10Speaker 06

  My surgery was in Atlanta, first thing in the morning. And, once they removed my kidney, it's put in a styrofoam container, and it's put on a commercial flight and was flown to Minneapolis.

• 38:24Speaker 03

  Her kidney is actually put on a plane and flown to Minnesota, where it is transplanted into Julie.

• 38:32Speaker 04

  I think I went in about 4:00 in the afternoon, something like that.

• 38:36Speaker 03

  Julie's husband, the same day, is having his kidney recovered at a hospital in Minnesota.

• 38:43Speaker 05

  It was a very emotional time. I told my kidney, "Go and do a good job and take care of somebody." And, I shed some tears.

• 38:53Speaker 06

  So Ray's kidney, at the same time that my kidney was flying from Atlanta to Minneapolis, his was flying from Minneapolis to Atlanta for the second recipient in the chain to receive her kidney.

• 39:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Ray Book donated his kidney as a paired donor so that his wife, Julie Park, could get a kidney from a stranger, the non-directed donor, Jody Shakely-Wright, and who got Ray's kidney?

• 39:17Speaker 05

  We did find out it was a woman that got my kidney. And she was in the next room next to the woman who was donating to Julie.

• 39:26Speaker 06

  Now, my recovery room in Atlanta was next door to Ray's recipient's recovery room. And I had the respect enough not to barge in there and introduce myself, although I have to be honest, I really wanted to. All I know about her is that she's doing well.

• 39:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  That recipient had also come into the kidney exchange with someone willing to give her a kidney, but she wasn't a match.

• 39:55Speaker 03

  So this person in Georgia who received Ray's kidney, her daughter, the same day, went to the operating room and donated her kidney. And that kidney stayed right there in the same hospital and went to somebody on the deceased donor waitlist who didn't have a living donor available to them.

• 40:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, this one act of kindness by Jody Shakely-Wright.

• 40:24Speaker 06

  Who donated out of the goodness of her heart. She didn't even have anyone she was donating for.

• 40:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  This one act had a multiplier effect.

• 40:33Speaker 03

  So what Jody did by entering the program without a recipient attached to her is she was able to unlock matches that otherwise wouldn't have been possible.

• 40:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  It also wouldn't have been possible without the algorithm created by Al Roth and his colleagues. In 2022, there were over 1,000 paired donation transplants.

• 40:52Speaker 03

  In 2000, we had two. We would have stayed doing two or four or six a year without the algorithm.

• 40:59Speaker 06

  The entire process is incredible. I don't have that much knowledge about algorithms. It's been a little while since high school and college, so I'd have to revisit some of my math skills. But I do know that it's amazingly complex and just to match blood types and antibodies. And especially knowing that at this time, there are almost 124,000 people in need of an organ. So how somebody begins to sift through all that is beyond me.

• 41:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  But thankfully, it's not beyond everyone. Al Roth again.

• 41:35Al Roth?

  This is about exchange. You know, the thing, the thing, we call it kidney exchanges. There's real exchange going on. So when I started talking to surgeons, they didn't automatically think of economists as fellow members of the helping profession. But when I talk about it nowadays, you know, I say, exchange, you know, that's what economists study. Of course, this is a subject for economists. But initially, many people found it odd that economists were getting involved in organizing surgeries.

• 42:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  You write in the book, or maybe hint in the book, that all this work that you and others have done to try to solve this problem will hopefully be obviated one day, not too long from now, when there's either medical treatment or perhaps artificial organs. Yeah, I mean.

• 42:17Al Roth?

  Oh, I hope so. I think that your grandchildren and maybe mine will just be appalled. They'll say to you, you know, grandpa said, tell me again, you used to cut the organ out of a dead person and sew it into a sick person, and that was modern medicine? And we'll have to say to them, yeah, yeah, we were proud and lucky to be able to do that. It saved lots and lots of lives.

• 42:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  And even more antediluvian, perhaps, would be the notion that you'd have had to create this complicated way to get a living donor to match with a donor, yes?

• 42:46Al Roth?

  Right. So my hope is that stem cell technologies will allow you to grow a new kidney the way you grow the ones you have originally. But we're far from that now. And while that may eventually happen, everyone who has end-stage renal disease today will be dead by that time. So our responsibility is to try to take care of the people who are sick today, even though there will be better ways to take care of them in the future.

• 43:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's it feel like to have played a role in helping redesign? I don't know if you call this a market. It is a market, yes?

• 43:20Al Roth?

  I call it a market. I mean, it's not a market where money plays a role, but it's exchange and you want to get efficient exchange. You want to get as many and as good quality transplants as you can. So absolutely.

• 43:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  So there are a bunch of people out there who are alive, who would not have been alive had not you and others working with you done what you've done. What's that feel like?

• 43:41Al Roth?

  Well, many others.

• 43:43Al Roth?

  It feels good, but economics in general does good things for people. So I think that it may be an illusion to say, here we are saving lives. Isn't that great? And it is great, but imagine all the other good things that markets do. You know, the economy has been immensely productive. We all live much, much longer than people like us lived even 100 years ago. And this has to do with the rapidly increasing prosperity that the world experiences because of the way markets work. So the big job of economists, of market designers,

• 44:27Al Roth?

  is to help that process along. It's been going along for many, many centuries without the help of economists, but it goes by trial and error. And maybe we can reduce some of the errors and make some of the trials go more quickly and more fruitfully.

• 44:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  That again was the economics professor and market design expert Al Roth. Not long after we first published this episode, we heard from someone who had been inspired by Roth, inspired to do something that most of us wouldn't do. We'll hear that story after the break. I'm Stephen Dubner and this is Freakonomics Radio.

• 45:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. Hello Ned.

• 45:13Speaker 07

  Steven, how are you?

• 45:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, great. How are you? Nice to meet you.

• 45:16Speaker 07

  Nice to hear you.

• 45:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Thanks so much for doing this. I mean, doing the interview, but doing the actual deed.

• 45:21Speaker 07

  That was a very easy thing to do.

• 45:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  When I spoke with him in 2016, Ned Brooks was 65 years old.

• 45:31Speaker 07

  I live in Norwalk, Connecticut. I'm semi-retired after a couple of careers on Wall Street and in real estate.

• 45:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  He had been married for nearly 35 years, three grown children, and one day, Brooks was in his car.

• 45:45Speaker 07

  And we were listening to your podcast about Alvin Roth, the Nobel Prize winner in economics, who created a model to trade indivisible items without the use of money. And I think he was talking about houses at the time, but it seems to work very well for the kidney chain as well. And I listened to the podcast with growing interest because what came through to me about the power of the kidney chain, as somebody with a business background, is the concept of leverage, that one altruistic donor, and an altruistic donor is someone who gives a kidney without having anybody particular in mind to receive it.

• 46:27Speaker 07

  And it provides a lot of options for the people who put these things together to start a kidney chain. And that results in a sequence of transplants that can affect a lot of people.

• 46:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, had you ever considered giving a kidney before then?

• 46:42Speaker 07

  No. No, I did not.

• 46:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what was it about the message from Al Roth in that podcast that either kind of alerted you? What did you learn or what changed your mind that made you start to think about that then?

• 46:55Speaker 07

  Well, the concept that we have two kidneys and we only need one.

• 47:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, did you know that ahead of time or not really?

• 47:02Speaker 07

  Yes, I did know that much. What I did not know is all the benefits that accrues to one who donates a kidney. The process is lengthy in terms of the amount of testing that you go through to do so.

• 47:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wait, you're saying that the medical tests were the benefits?

• 47:20Speaker 07

  Oh, absolutely.

• 47:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  I just want to clarify here.

• 47:22Speaker 07

  Yeah, absolutely. Look, you get many thousands of dollars of testing for free.

• 47:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can I just say something, Ned? I think you and I are fundamentally different people because if I were going to get several thousand dollars worth of something free, I would want it to be golf or something, fishing boat, not medical test. But tell me more about your great desire for this.

• 47:43Speaker 07

  Well, you're not 65 and knowing that all your organs are free of any contaminants is a very reassuring thing, actually.

• 47:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let me be clear. It wasn't really all the free medical testing that made Brooks want to become a kidney donor?

• 47:57Speaker 07

  I think this is something I have to do. It required some thought, discussion with my wife that day in the car. I spent one restless night, probably about three hours, trying to understand what my own motivations were and if they were the right ones to be doing this. And once I put that to rest, then it was a very easy thing to do.

• 48:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you decide immediately to become a non-directed donor, meaning that your kidney would be available for anyone who needed it? Or did you think about trying to help someone in particular?

• 48:31Speaker 07

  As great as it would be to help someone in particular, I didn't know anyone who needed a kidney. And in fact, the leverage comes from being an altruistic donor. You can't start a kidney chain unless you're altruistic about it.

• 48:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's say I need a kidney and my wife is willing to donate, or someone else in my family is willing to donate, but they're not a match. They're not a physiological match for me, but they would donate a kidney of theirs to someone else who is a match. They then enter the chain, correct?

• 48:59Speaker 07

  So call them Couple A, and Couple B is in the same situation as is Couple C, D down the line.

• 49:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  But then there's this wild card X that's you, this guy who comes in who doesn't have anyone who needs one, who just wants to give. Does that make you much more valuable?

• 49:13Speaker 07

  That makes me valuable because it allows the algorithm to maximize the length of the chain. And kick it off. If you didn't have the altruistic donor to start, you'd have to have a perfect match. I'm trying, I'm working with my hands as I'm doing this, which is a lot of arrows pointing to people who all work out exactly the same.

• 49:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Talk about the procedure, working with the hospital, and talk about how the relationship works so that you are not made to feel that you're being pressured.

• 49:49Speaker 07

  Sure. In my case, I had the operation done at New York Presbyterian, and I chose New York Presbyterian because they do a lot of these operations. And I think with any surgery like this, you want to go to a place that does a lot of them. And so I was very comfortable with their record. They've never lost a donor yet. They provide you with two advocates, and those advocates are there to protect your interests throughout the process. And you go in for testing, you do it through your advocate, you go in for psychological testing, physical testing. They want to make sure you're financially able to do this, because of course, you cannot be compensated for a kidney donation.

• 50:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  To what degree did they push back? In other words, to what degree did they try actively to discourage you, or at least make you take a step back and think it through a little bit more?

• 50:43Speaker 07

  They didn't actively discourage me. The psychiatrist probed quite a bit, but after I seemed to have satisfied her on the answers, that was the end of it. What they will not do is they will not come after you to keep you coming to the hospital for every procedure that needs to be done. In other words, they set the time and the date for your next appointment, and they won't call you. It's up to you to make sure you're there.

• 51:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, that's interesting, yeah. And at no point did they catch on to the fact that you were just in it for the free medical testing?

• 51:15Speaker 07

  Actually, actually, yes. The doctor I spoke with there said this is a little-known secret, but the testing is so good that everybody should at least start out to be a kidney donor and find out how their tests go.

• 51:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is a secret that I'm guessing they really don't want broadcast because I can, I can see an army of, you know, senior citizens flooding in there for their tests only to say, you know, I think I'm going to hang on to the, to the, to the other kidney. And then talk to me about your family's response. Was everybody on board?

• 51:44Speaker 07

  My wife was supportive. As I said, I have three children. One was very supportive, one was skeptical, and one was opposed. And I guess that's what you get when you get three children. But the skeptical one and the one who was opposed turned around once they felt like they got a lot more facts about it. It's a very safe procedure relative to surgery in general. And, and once they understood that, then I think their reservations went away.

• 52:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  I understand you wrote a letter to your family when you had gotten pretty far along in the process. By then you'd undergone some of the testing?

• 52:23Speaker 07

  Yes, yes.

• 52:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you happen to have that letter handy?

• 52:26Speaker 07

  Actually, I do have it here.

• 52:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  If you don't mind giving that a read, that'd be great.

• 52:30Speaker 07

  Sure, okay. This is a letter that I wrote to my family when I realized that this is what I wanted to do and I wanted to inform them all at the same time. So I sent them an email and it goes like this. All, as you've commented upon, I've had a number of medical tests over the summer. I did not fully answer your questions about those because I wanted to wait until I cleared all the tests. I'm happy to report that I'm about as healthy as is possible for a 65-year-old male to be. Back in the spring, I was listening to a Freakonomics podcast about a man who won the Nobel Prize in Economics for constructing a model of a market to trade indivisible objects without the use of money. He was thinking about houses, but it turns out that the model works very well for other things.

• 53:15Speaker 07

  His work had been used to create an extensive network for the matching of kidney donors and recipients. The more I listened to the podcast, the more fascinated I became as I learned that just one altruistic donor, a person who donates without a targeted recipient, can launch a chain of kidney transplants that can number as high as 43. I spoke with the National Kidney Foundation and learned more about the process. I registered as a potential donor and began an extensive series of tests at New York Presbyterian, which have now concluded with me being accepted as a kidney donor. So, why am I doing this? Many of our friends and acquaintances have had their share of health challenges in recent years. It is mightily frustrating to watch the pain and suffering and be unable to give any help.

• 53:59Speaker 07

  I, on the other hand, am in perfect health. I have no need for my second kidney, and I appreciate that my actions may greatly benefit the lives of not just the recipients of those kidneys, but their entire families. Without it being too much of a stretch, my one wholly redundant organ can potentially change and improve the lives of hundreds of people. There were 5,355 kidney transplants from living donors last year, and there are over 100,000 people on the waitlist right now for kidney. The operation is several hours. They start about 3:00 a.m. in order to catch the morning flights around the country, particularly Los Angeles. L.A. does more transplants than any place in the country, and New York Presbyterian does the most east of the Mississippi.

• 54:41Speaker 07

  They will have me walking that same day, and I should stay two days in the hospital. I will be uncomfortable for two weeks and fully recovered after four weeks. The operation is laparoscopic with a single incision in the abdomen. I've been working hard with my trainer on my abs. My advocate tells me that because I am blood type O, a universal donor, and an altruistic donor, I will light up computer screens across the country when they list me tomorrow. I'm happy to report that Mom is fully on board with this. I could go on for a while, but I think you have the picture. If you have interest in hearing the podcast that inspired me, you can find it here, and then I note the Freakonomics page, and the short Freakonomics blog on the subject here. Let me know if you have any questions. Love you all. That.

• 55:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  The left kidney that Brooks donated wound up launching a three-recipient chain.

• 55:31Speaker 07

  I knew nothing about my recipient until the day of the surgery when I was told that it was a 37-year-old female in Denver area, and that she was very, very sick and unlikely to find a donor anytime soon, and that this was a real one-in-a-million match.

• 55:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you know anything about the cause of her illness? And did that, would that have mattered to you if you did know?

• 55:57Speaker 07

  No, I had no idea.

• 55:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Look, you're not getting paid. You might get thanked, you might not get thanked. You're doing this for your own set of reasons. Was it important to you that that person appreciate those reasons or appreciate you? Or did it not really work that way for you?

• 56:13Speaker 07

  This is where the leverage comes in. They asked that same question in the initial stages in a little bit different way. What they ask is if something happens to your recipient, how upset are you going to be? Quite frankly, my answer was, this is multiple people who are getting a transplant because of what I'm doing. And if one of them doesn't work out, I'm terribly sorry, but it's going to change the lives for all the others.

• 56:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Ned, you learned a little bit about your recipient. And from what I understand, you've been in contact, you received a letter from her, is that right, expressing her thanks?

• 56:44Speaker 07

  The way this works is, I go through my advocate at the hospital, writing a letter to the recipient that goes to the advocate at her hospital to her. Then if she chooses to do so, she comes back to me with whatever she wants to say. And then through the advocates, I go back and disclose my identification, then she does that back to me if she wants to. And that's the way it worked. And we've exchanged emails, and I've gotten Christmas cards from her family and so forth.

• 57:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you haven't met with her or spoken with her by phone?

• 57:13Speaker 07

  I have not met or spoken with her, no.

• 57:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, so here's the story. I believe that if technology has served us well, that she's on the other line right now, Danielle from Centennial, Colorado.

• 57:26Speaker 07

  Oh my God, I've not spoken to her yet. This would be great.

• 57:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Danielle, can you hear us? This is Stephen Dubner.

• 57:34Speaker 08

  Hi, I can hear you guys.

• 57:36Speaker 07

  It's Ned.

• 57:37Speaker 08

  Hi Ned.

• 57:38Speaker 07

  Hi.

• 57:39Speaker 08

  How are you doing?

• 57:40Speaker 07

  I'm doing great.

• 57:45Speaker 08

  Good, good. This is exciting.

• 57:46Speaker 07

  This is very exciting. It's great to hear your voice. How are you feeling?

• 57:50Speaker 08

  I'm feeling good, feeling real good. Lately, it's been, it's been a struggle since the surgery, but I'm, I'm doing good. A lot better than I was.

• 57:58Speaker 07

  Are you on lots of meds?

• 57:59Speaker 08

  Uh, yeah. Unfortunately, I'll have to be on a ton of meds for probably the rest of my life.

• 58:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey Danielle, this is Steven. Can you tell us a little bit about what led to your need for the kidney?

• 58:10Speaker 08

  Sure, sure. It all started, uh, October 8th, 2014. I had received a call from my doctor saying that my blood work had come back. I'd gone to my regular doctor just because I was having a severe headache that wouldn't go away. And so they did some blood work. They called me the next day and said, "You need to get to the hospital immediately." And they were telling me my creatinine was at a 12 and I had no idea what that was. And so I went to the hospital and I was immediately hospitalized for the next 15 days, getting biopsies and MRIs and plasma for thesis and dialysis and getting all

• 58:50Speaker 08

  these tubes put in my neck and chest. And it just all happened so fast. And to this day, they still don't have any reason. I, I happened three weeks after I had my son, but they don't want to associate it to that. So they really have no answers of why this all happened to me.

• 59:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what was your, A, I guess prognosis? Did they think that you would survive? And what was your prognosis for getting a donated kidney?

• 59:14Speaker 08

  Well, when they, when they was hospitalized and they'd had no answers, they were functioning a small part, but they, they said that they were, they were failing. But they had hope since they really had no idea what was going on with me, that they would kind of kick back in and restart themselves. So we kind of just waited and I started dialysis and everything. And while we were waiting for those next couple of months, I actually tried acupuncture for, you know, organ treatment specifically for that. You know, I was trying everything. And I said, "You know what? I'm not going to wait any longer for them to restart. I better get on the transplant list now." So come January of 2015, I started the process of getting on the transplant list and...

• 1:00:00Speaker 08

  And starting there.

• 1:00:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what were you told about how long that would likely take you to get a donated kidney?

• 1:00:06Speaker 08

  Well, it came back that I had antibodies in my blood from blood transfusions that I had during the hospitalization and since from having children, they said I created all these antibodies. So it made me a very rare match for, I wasn't a match to any of my family and so they said because of my rare antibodies, I could possibly be on the list five to six years. So that's the kind of range they gave me back in January of 2015 then. I was looking at five to six years being on dialysis.

• 1:00:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wow. How long was it before you heard that there was a donor?

• 1:00:45Speaker 08

  Well, it was probably come May of 2015 that I started getting word. Me and my father, we decided since I was having such a hard time and nobody in my family matched with me, my father really wanted to donate on my behalf. So we heard about the paired donor program through the hospital and he wanted to donate his kidney on my behalf. So it was probably around May of 2015 that we started the chain process and I had several chains lined up throughout the summer of 2015, but they kept falling through doing, due to like scheduling and with some part of the chain, you know, it kept falling through.

• 1:01:25Speaker 08

  So I had many chains lined up throughout the summer and it was finally in August that we found, I guess Ned was matched to me and we got the surgery date of September 22nd and it kind of just happened really quickly from there.

• 1:01:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Way to go Ned.

• 1:01:44Speaker 07

  Thanks.

• 1:01:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's it feel like for you Ned, hearing Danielle talk now? She's obviously in a much better situation today with your kidney in her than she would be without, so what's that, what's that feel like to hear her on the other end of the line?

• 1:02:00Speaker 07

  Uh, it's emotionally very powerful. It means a lot, a great deal.

• 1:02:07Speaker 08

  Yeah, it was a real struggle going through dialysis in the last year. I had to do four hours of treatment, three days a week. So basically it took fifteen hours out of my time every week. And I would go into a dialysis center and the first thing you do is you get checked in and they do your blood pressure, your weight, your temperature. They go through, you know, every, all of your symptoms that you're feeling. And there's really no privacy when they're doing that. I mean, the next patient's five feet from you in their chair. And you're talking about all your bodily functions that are not going well for you with all the medications you're taking and everything. And there's a little bit, it takes away a little bit of your integrity, having to do that so publicly.

• 1:02:52Speaker 08

  And then just to sit there for four hours doing nothing, I can't get up, I can't move, my blood is just sitting there, you're watching your blood go through this machine. And it's really, really depressing. And it was hard for me. I mean, I cried the first couple of times just because I would sit there and I'd look around and I was the youngest, you know, obviously, in the whole building at thirty-seven years old. And I was the only one driving myself there. And, you know, it's just, it's just a really hard and depressing time to spend, you know, in your day. So it was really hard for me to do because I had two small children as well.

• 1:03:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's remarkable. You say you were crying then. Now you sound so strong. You know, Ned's on the other line blubbering there. I'm on the border of holding it together. So.

• 1:03:42Speaker 08

  It's emotional every time I talk about my story too, so.

• 1:03:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm curious, you said that your dad had entered the donor chain. Did he end up giving a kidney? And if so, does he know who the recipient was?

• 1:03:58Speaker 08

  He ended up giving his kidney. And all we really know is that it went to Connecticut, over there where Ned is. And we have not heard from the recipient on that end.

• 1:04:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  I have a copy of the, uh, the letter that you wrote to your donor. Uh, it's unclear to me whether you knew exactly who Ned was at this time. It begins, "To my wonderful kidney donor, I don't even know where to begin."

• 1:04:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  And I've already started to cry. Sorry. Okay. I have nothing to do with either of you and I'm crying. Okay. So, but then, um, toward the end, you write, "Just to let you know, your kidney is doing awesome."

• 1:04:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  And I'm already getting my energy back. Danielle, what's it like to have this guy Ned's kidney inside of you? Do you feel whole again? Do you feel different?

• 1:04:53Speaker 08

  You know, it was amazing because the very next day after surgery, I felt incredible. I, I felt 100% different. I didn't feel any of the symptoms that I was having before with the illness and the nausea and the anxiety and everything I was going through. I immediately felt better. My body felt better. And yeah, I was eating and drinking the foods and liquids I was restricted to for so long. And it was, it's, it's just, I, I do have the energy again. And it's amazing how much better I feel. And, you know, I don't know if he had any, you know, food habits that I've picked up, but.

• 1:05:34Speaker 07

  How do you feel about single malt scotch?

• 1:05:36Speaker 08

  You know, I haven't had the craving for any scotch. And it's funny because we joke about that with my dad because he's a single malt scotch drinker too. And we say, oh, that person's probably craving it now.

• 1:05:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, Danielle, I'm glad you're doing better and I hope you continue to do even better.

• 1:05:57Speaker 08

  Yes. Yes. Thank you so much. And Ned, thank you so much for everything you've done for me and my family.

• 1:06:02Speaker 07

  And no need to thank me anymore. Thank you for being such a great recipient and we'll be in touch.

• 1:06:08Speaker 08

  Yes, we will. Thank you.

• 1:06:09Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 1:06:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. Danielle, thanks for jumping on the phone with us. Bye bye.

• 1:06:13Speaker 08

  All right. Bye bye, guys.

• 1:06:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Bye.

• 1:06:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, Ned, how do you feel now? Look and see what you've done now?

• 1:06:22Speaker 07

  Boy, I was shaking in here. This is really something. She's a great person.

• 1:06:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, I know you didn't do it for the thanks, but thanks.

• 1:06:37Speaker 07

  My pleasure.

• 1:06:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ned Brooks, inspired by his own experience and the need for more kidney donations, started an organization to help build more altruistic kidney donor chains. It is called the National Kidney Donation Organization. Last year, they helped recruit about 600 living donors. They can be found at NKDO.org.

• 1:07:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up next time on the show, as promised, a sit-down with the CEO of Endeavor, Ari Emanuel.

• 1:07:15Speaker 09

  I still shave my head on the same day that they shaved my head. I'm 62, and I still [bleep] do it. It's insane.

• 1:07:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. The original episode, "Make Me a Match", number 209, was produced by Greg Rosalsky. And the conversation with Ned Brooks originally aired as part of an episode called "Ask Not What Your Podcast Can Do For You", produced by Irva Gunja. That's episode 237. Our staff includes Julie Canfor, Zach Lipinski, Morgan Levy, Ryan Kelley, Alina Coleman, Catherine Moncur, Greg Rippon, Rebecca Lee Douglas, Sarah Lilly, Eleanor Osborne, Jeremy Johnston, Jasmine Klinger, Daria Klenert, Emma Terrell, Lyric Bowditch, and Elsa Hernandez. The executive team of the Freakonomics Radio Network is Neil Carruth, Gabriel Roth, and me, Stephen Dubner. Our theme song is "Mr. Fortune", by The Hitchhikers.

• 1:08:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Our original music is composed by Luis Guerra. As always, thanks for listening.

• 1:08:18Speaker 07

  I've listened to you for so many countless hours that actually, sitting here talking to you, I feel like I'm in my car.

• 1:08:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  I hope you don't talk back to me when you're in your car. I don't know, maybe that wouldn't be a terrible thing.

• 1:08:36Speaker 02

  The Freakonomics Radio Network. The Hidden Side of Everything.

• 1:08:43Speaker 09

  Stitcher.