61. Does This Recession Make Me Look Fat?

A look at some non-obvious ways to lose weight.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. There's no hiding how convenient Southern New Hampshire University makes college. They offer over 80 career-focused graduate programs online. Classes have no set meeting times, so you can balance life and learning, and online tuition rates are some of the lowest in the country, making it all a little more manageable. A school this willing to work with you is worth the investment. Visit snhu.edu/freakonomics to learn more. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by hotels.com. Hotels.com helps you find and book the right stay for work faster. With business preferences, save your travel must haves, like gym access or breakfast,

• 0:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  just once, then get tailored results whenever you search for work travel. Plus, with a free membership, you can save up to 20% on hotels and earn rewards on every stay for future travel. Book now at hotels.com. Visit hotels.com for details. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Amica. You know what they say, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. So go with Amica and get coverage from a mutual insurer that's built for their customers, one that looks after what's important to you together. Auto, home, life, and more, coverage that fits your unique needs. Amica helps you protect what matters most.

• 1:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Visit amica.com and get a quote today. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work is a new way to work in ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work can pull info from across your apps and connect to your tools to help you create finished work. You can even automate work in ChatGPT with the Scheduled Tasks feature, and the whole time, you stay in control. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  From APM, American Public Media and WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio on Marketplace. Here's the host of Marketplace, Kai Rizdal.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Time now for a little bit of Freakonomics Radio, that moment in the broadcast every couple of weeks where we talk to Stephen Dubner, the co-author of the books and the blog of the same name. It is The Hidden Side of Everything. And Dubner, you know what? I'm especially glad to have you back this week. You know why?

• 2:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  I know why.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  You do? I know. You sent me something. I love it when you send me things.

• 2:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  I sent you something. What can I tell you? I'm a benevolent kind of fella.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, go ahead, Kai. Open up your little package.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  All right, here we go. All right, it's a little bubble wrap envelope with an envelope inside.

• 2:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Very careful.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Very careful. With... Okay, so it's a pack of Marlboros. Marlboros. And I don't smoke, dude.

• 3:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you stay trim. All right? So, I want you to listen to Kip Viscusi, who's an economist at Vanderbilt who studies smoking.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  All right. Well, one thing is that if you give up smoking, you'll gain some weight. May not be enough to make you morbidly obese, but it'll make you a little heavier. All right, so here's the hidden side, right? It's the unintended consequences of giving up smoking.

• 3:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  You are learning, my friend, Kai. So, here's the thing.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  How long have we been doing this segment?

• 3:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Couple of years, but you're getting there. So, our smoking rate in this country has been falling dramatically, which is fantastic news, but there's a hidden side to that, as with everything. Now, listen, I am not saying that smoking is a good way to fight weight gain. Let me be clear, okay? It is not, and smoking is bad for you. But this is an instructive lesson about trade-offs, because I want to talk today about another weight-related trade-off having to do with our economy. So, Kai, let me ask you this question. What do you think that the Great Recession has done to our collective waistline?

• 3:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, I'm going to go with my gut. It's a bad thing, right? Because people are going to McDonald's for the dollar menu and all that stuff, right? And thus, we're getting fatter.

• 4:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is a fantastic guess, and you might even be right this time.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Usually with you, I'm wrong, but anyway.

• 4:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Usually you are, but some research suggests that you may be right, but there's other research that suggests the opposite. So let me play the opposite. Here's Christopher Ruhm, who's an economist at the University of Virginia.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:25Speaker 03

  What we've learned over the last decade or so is an initially surprising fact that when times are bad, people get healthier over many dimensions, and one of those appears to be obesity. So that, for example, if my income is down, I don't go out to eat as often, and meals eaten out of the home are probably less healthy and more caloric.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  All right, makes sense on its face, but I'm still not convinced.

• 4:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, you know, here's the thing. Obesity is one of those problems that has a lot of different causes, right? And not all of them are obvious. You were right to focus on the relationship between dollars and calories. That is incredibly important to consider. I mean, think about this. For the vast majority of human civilization, it was a big struggle for us to provide enough affordable calories for everyone. But over the past few generations, we have gotten very, very good, particularly rich nations like ours, at making calories abundant and delicious and cheap. The markets have given us exactly what we wanted, and now we are dealing with a side effect.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Well, so are you saying, then, we should intervene in the markets and make those calories more expensive? I mean...

• 5:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, look, I'm not a big intervenor kind of guy, but that's the right question to ask. Let's go back to your cigarettes that I sent you, okay? And talk about how the incentives work. That pack I sent you cost, believe it or not, 12 bucks here in New York City.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  No way, really?

• 5:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  And about half of that was taxes. Now, economists generally agree that cigarette taxes have helped drive down smoking. So if you raise the price of cigarettes a little bit, consumption falls. And that is why, if you want to talk about obesity now, some people like the idea of a fat tax, which is a tax on fat foods, not fat people, by the way. And they've tried this in Denmark and Hungary, and there's some talk of trying it here.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that's never going to fly, right?

• 6:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  It is a classic regret. ...tax. It would hit harder low-income people than high-income people, which makes it tough. Another tough sell is to change the food subsidies coming out of Washington, right? So there's billions of subsidy dollars that now go to corn and wheat and soy, none of which are bad in and of themselves, but products of those get turned into very, very, very cheap additives in junk food. So one argument is that we should shift those subsidies toward things like, you know, fruits and vegetables. So it's cheaper to eat healthier.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Which makes sense. All right. So do me a favor. Next time you send me something?

• 6:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  Make it fruits or vegetables, or beer, actually, would be good, too. You can send more beer.

• 6:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Light beer. It's on the way.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  No, no, not light beer, but that's a whole nother segment. Stephen Dubner, Freakonomics.com is the website. He's back in a couple of weeks. See ya.

• 7:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  My pleasure, Kai. Thank you.

• 7:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by EverPure. Is the value of AI not living up to the promise? The problem is probably your data, not your AI models. When it's scattered across different systems, getting your data AI-ready is a challenge. You keep your AI waiting and everything slows down. EverPure unifies your data so you can see it, understand it, and control it all from one simple place and get it AI-ready fast. Unlock the true value of your AI at everpuredata.com.

• 7:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Ozempic. Innovation happens through rethinking what's possible, and when it comes to GLP-1s, Ozempic pill does just that. Learn more about Ozempic semaglutide tablets, 4 and 9 milligrams, by calling 1-833-OZEMPIC or visit ozempic.com to view the medication guide and ask your doctor what's possible with FDA-approved Ozempic pill.

• 8:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by US Bank Smartly Checking and Savings. You know, US Bank Smartly Checking and Savings are bank accounts that work harder for you. You get better savings rates, fee waivers, and rewards from day one, so you spend less time worrying about money and more on what matters. Sign up for US Bank Smartly Checking and Savings today at usbank.com/smartly. Member FDIC. Copyright 2026 US Bank.

• 8:50Speaker 04

  This episode is brought to you by Charles Schwab. Is there a right time to sell a stock? Are you taking the right risks with your portfolio? Financial decisions can be tricky, and often your own cognitive and emotional biases can lead you astray. Financial Decoder, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, can help. Join host Mark Reapy as he offers practical solutions to help overcome the cognitive and emotional biases that may affect your investing decisions. Listen at schwab.com/financialdecoder.