394. Does Hollywood Still Have a Princess Problem?

For decades, there’s been a huge gender disparity both on-screen and behind the scenes. But it seems like cold, hard data — with an assist from the actor Geena Davis — may finally be moving the needle.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. The best investments are the ones you make in yourself, and no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. With more than 200 online degree programs, no set class times, and low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University is built to fit your life today and set you up for success tomorrow. Education is an investment. Why not make it a smart one? Apply for free at SNHU.edu/freakonomics. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Hotels.com. Hotels.com helps you find and book the right stay for work faster. With business preferences, save your travel must haves like gym access or breakfast just

• 0:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  once, then get tailored results whenever you search for work travel. Plus, with a free membership, you can save up to 20% on hotels and earn rewards on every stay for future travel. Book now at hotels.com. Visit hotels.com for details. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Mint Mobile. With Mint Mobile's Summer Sale, all of Mint's plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. Free yourself from big wireless and switch to Mint for high-speed data and coverage on the T-Mobile 5G network. To get your new wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com/freak. That's mintmobile.com/freak.

• 1:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Upfront payment, $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50GB may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20GB hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 1:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work is a new way to work in ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work can pull info from across your apps and connect to your tools to help you create finished work. You can even automate work in ChatGPT with the Scheduled Tasks feature, and the whole time you stay in control. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  In my opinion, the biggest problem we have in the world, of all the problems that we have, is gender inequality. If we were able to fix that so that women were no longer second-class citizens, I think it would impact every other problem that we have: hunger, and the environment, and war. I don't mean to say that it will cure the other problems, but it would go a long way toward improving these other stubborn problems. I mean, women in most sectors of society, well, in every sector, there's big gender inequality, but as far as leadership positions go, a lot of times, progress seems to stall

• 3:17Speaker 01

  out at about 20%. Congress is 20% women, and so many other areas of society are similar. So we're not using, by any means, all of the talent of women. And the evidence has shown that if you correct that and get all of the best minds working, things will improve. And women and men just have a different view of the world. There's all these studies that show that when a body is more blended, where it's not homogeneous, it makes smarter and better decisions.

• 3:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  You may recognize that voice, but it's not one of the academic researchers we usually speak with on this show, nor does she run a big institution like the World Bank or the Federal Reserve. That voice belongs to Gina Davis, the Hollywood actor, not some random Gina Davis.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. In fact, I put that in my email to you in the subject. It was "From Gina Davis, the actor, not some random Gina Davis."

• 4:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Why did Gina Davis send us that email? Well, it really goes back to the 1991 movie that made her super famous, Thelma and Louise.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Did you see how polite he is? He's so sweet. Thelma, hold on.

• 4:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Davis played a timid housewife who goes road tripping with her not-at-all timid friend, who's played by Susan Sarandon.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  And they make horrible decisions along the way, but they live and die by them and live and die by them.

• 4:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  As Hollywood films go, it was a huge outlier. Two female leads, a female screenwriter, and the kind of raucous, thorny story that didn't usually involve female characters. Also, a wild gut punch of an ending. Making Thelma and Louise changed Gina Davis from the very beginning.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  It started happening within minutes of meeting Susan for the first time. And so we were having a meeting with Ridley Scott.

• 5:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ridley Scott was the director. Davis and Susan Sarandon were asked to give him some feedback on the screenplay.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  And I had gone through it to see if I had any ideas, and there were some very little things, maybe a little line change or something.

• 5:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Keep in mind that by this point in her career, Davis had already won an Oscar for Best Supporting Actress.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  And I figured out the most girly possible way to present these. You know, maybe I could make him think it's his idea somehow, and maybe I'll tell this one, I'll make it sound like a joke, and this one, I could wait till on the set, because I don't want to bring up this many things.

• 6:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you're treating yourself like a second-class citizen, essentially, yes?

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Exactly. I was definitely one of those people who had 1,000 qualifiers before they would say anything. Like, I don't know if this is true, and it's probably wrong, but what did you think about...

• 6:23Speaker 01

  So anyway, so we get there and page one, Susan says, now, this first line of mine, you know, I think we should just cut that line, or maybe, maybe put it on page two, but it just doesn't seem right. And I'm like, wait a minute, my mind was blown. Wait a minute. Women can be like this? I became her acolyte. I couldn't get enough of her. And just observing how she moved through the world, she just seemed like she thought her opinion was valuable, and so she would say it. And it's astounding to me that I never saw a woman behave like that.

• 7:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Why had Gina Davis never seen a woman behave like that? Perhaps because she, like many people, had absorbed so much media imagery of women and girls who behave nothing like that. And it starts early. For girls in America particularly, it's almost a rite of passage. The watching of, the obsessing over, and perhaps the imitating of the princesses in Disney movies.

• 7:34Speaker 03

  Being highly engaged in the Disney princess culture at a young age tended to be related to more girly-girl behavior.

• 7:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Today on Freakonomics Radio, what messages do those princess movies send?

• 7:48Speaker 04

  This idea that you could make a wish and it'll come true, and that you don't have to work hard for what you want.

• 7:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  How does this princessism trickle up into the economics of the broader movie business?

• 7:58Speaker 02

  You know, Hollywood is leaving money on the table.

• 8:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's Gina Davis doing about it?

• 8:02Speaker 01

  I've been there hundreds of times to talk to every possible division they have.

• 8:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  So is it working? You'll find out right after this.

• 8:26Speaker 05

  From Stitcher and Dubner Productions, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 8:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  And let's just play word association for a minute. When I say the word princess, you say what?

• 8:48Speaker 04

  Beauty.

• 8:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ah. When I say the word Disney princess, you say what?

• 8:54Speaker 04

  Strict guidelines.

• 8:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  So how do we go from beauty to strict guidelines just by adding Disney?

• 9:03Speaker 04

  Because of the easy access that we have to this media as five-year-old girls.

• 9:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's my daughter, Anya.

• 9:15Speaker 04

  I'm a rising senior in high school.

• 9:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Actually, we recorded this over the summer, so by now, she's fully risen. When she was little, Anya was heavily into the Disney princesses.

• 9:25Speaker 04

  Snow White, Belle, Aurora. What little girl wouldn't want to be a Disney princess? Wouldn't want long, flowy hair and, you know, wouldn't want to make a wish in a while and have the perfect life.

• 9:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you remember going to Disney World?

• 9:40Speaker 04

  I do. It felt so magical.

• 9:45Speaker 04

  You met all the princesses?

• 9:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. You would just like stop.

• 9:49Speaker 04

  Jaw drop. It felt like I was meeting a celebrity. It felt like, oh, my God, this is who I want to be. This is so exciting.

• 9:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Was there one princess in particular?

• 10:01Speaker 04

  It was always Belle.

• 10:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, which one was Belle?

• 10:04Speaker 04

  Beauty and the Beast. And even though I had a mind that made everything and anything possible, she was the most achievable to me because I looked like her. So I would wear that yellow dress and I instantly felt like her. I would wear it everywhere. Do you remember?

• 10:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, everywhere. To visit grandparents, to go to school, doctor's office. And what's her story? What's the plot?

• 10:30Speaker 04

  She gets trapped in a castle. She meets this big beast. He's hideous. Everyone thinks he's really aggressive and... Terrible and a monster. And she gets to know him and he becomes nice and gentle and he starts to love her. And then somehow he becomes a handsome prince.

• 10:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 10:49Speaker 04

  This is actually one of the very few princesses I admired because in the beginning of the movie, she was always reading books, walking around town, and she turned down the handsome town man who everyone loved. She had no interest in him. And then suddenly she meets the beast and she falls in love with someone for something other than his looks. And I think that's an important message, yes, but at the same time, there's still this weird sense of the man being obsessed with her and it still revolves all around her being beautiful.

• 11:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Anya's been thinking a lot about Disney princesses lately because of a writing project she had in school for ethics class. The assignment was to explore any scenario that showed a marked imbalance of gender or power. Now, you'll have to take my word for this, but Anya is not an injustice collector. She doesn't try to turn molehills into mountains. She's not punitive. I mean, take it with a grain of salt, I'm obviously biased, but I think she's a kind and thoughtful person.

• 11:53Speaker 04

  I want to study psychology. I think it's kind of like a superpower. You can know what's going on in someone's mind. It's just such an exciting thing.

• 12:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  And yet, when she looked back at the Disney princesses she loved as a kid, she wasn't crazy about the messages they sent.

• 12:07Speaker 04

  There are such strict gender roles and guidelines that represent how women should act and how women should perform in a household and, you know, look and what they should want in life. I don't blame them because all of these movies are reflections of the time. What I'm curious about is why people continue to watch these and why parents continue to show their kids because hopefully these societal norms have, you know, improved in some ways and they're not like they were in the 1930s when Snow White came out. I think Disney makes possible this idea that you could make a wish and it'll come true and that you don't have to work hard for what you want.

• 12:49Speaker 04

  And what you want is probably because of Disney, this fantasy life that everything is so easy and everything is perfect and that you, you know, find a prince. And Having your ideal life be so easy to achieve is a really bad message to send to anybody, but in my opinion, especially to girls, because for me, as a girl, I think I always have to work really hard to prove myself, because I feel that, subconsciously, people expect men to be smarter, or just to be more successful. And because of that, I think women need to have an extra layer of armor.

• 13:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  It makes me proud of you to hear you think this through like that, but it also makes me feel bad.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  Sad.

• 13:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 13:35Speaker 04

  Right.

• 13:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  As the father of a daughter, you know, that you feel that you've got that additional burden.

• 13:39Speaker 04

  I kind of like it. If you think of it in a certain way, it adds a certain type of determination.

• 13:43Speaker 03

  You know, there's kind of a debate right now, where a lot of critics say media has no impact on us at all.

• 13:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Sarah Coyne. She is a psychology professor at Brigham Young University. She studies how children and families are affected by the media they consume.

• 14:02Speaker 03

  But we've been researching this for over two decades. And, I mean, lots of things have an impact on behavior. Lots of things influence body image, or pro-social behavior, or aggression, or, you know, pick whatever you want, gender. But media is a significant and an important one.

• 14:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  Just how significant, and in what directions? Coyne and some other researchers set up a study to find out.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  The major aim of the study was to find the longer-term impact of princess culture on a variety of different outcomes, such as pro-social behavior, body image, and gender stereotypes.

• 14:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  The study included roughly 200 young children, girls and boys. The researchers factored in each kid's viewing habits, their play habits, and a lot of other factors. They also interviewed the kids' parents and teachers. What'd they learn?

• 14:55Speaker 03

  So, we found that girls in particular, who were really into princess culture at age four, tended to be more gender stereotyped the next year, after controlling for how gender stereotyped they were that previous year. So... In other words, being highly engaged in the Disney princess culture at a young age tended to be related to kind of more girly-girl behavior the next year.

• 15:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Girly-girl behavior, meaning what exactly?

• 15:25Speaker 03

  Characteristics would be kind of submissive and passive, but really friendly and sweet, whereas boys are more assertive and aggressive.

• 15:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coyne and her colleagues published their findings in a paper called Pretty as a Princess: Longitudinal Effects of Engagement with Disney Princesses on Gender Stereotypes, Body Esteem, and Pro-social Behavior in Children. The reaction was not so great.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  I even got physical hate mail to my office. It was the only time that's ever happened. I think when we tell parents, you know, just be thoughtful about this, or there could be kind of a darker side to princesses, they get really defensive about their own choices as parents. I think that a lot of people thought, well, you're saying girls can't be feminine, which is not the case at all. There's a difference between being feminine and being stereotyped, right? What we find is that girls who are highly gender stereotyped tend to limit themselves in a number of key ways. So they don't think that they can do well in math or science.

• 16:36Speaker 03

  They're less likely to want to go on to college when they get older. So it's really about kind of limiting yourself and what you could become.

• 16:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hearing Sarah Coyne talk about the lasting effects of princessism, of course, made me think about my own daughter, Anya. So, looking back on your, let's say, five-year-old self now as a 17-year-old, what effect do you think all that princessism had on you as a person?

• 17:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's something I was wondering. I mean, I like the way I turned out, and I think my values adhere to, you know, the beliefs that I admire. But the values presented in these movies may have been instilled in me in ways that I've not particularly noticed.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  My 17-year-old daughter is exactly the same as yours. Princess mania and now so self-possessed and stubborn.

• 17:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  That, again, is Gina Davis. And this is exactly what she wanted to talk about when she sent us that email a few months back. Because she sees a connection between princessism and what she calls "the biggest problem in the world," gender inequality. When Thelma and Louise came out, Davis says, she was convinced things were moving forward really fast.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  The press had a field day with saying that Thelma and Louise would change everything. Now, everything is going to change. So many more movies starring women. And it didn't happen at all.

• 18:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  It wasn't only in Hollywood where it didn't happen, but in finance, in tech, in many other areas.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  All the evidence shows that if there is progress being made, it's at an absolutely glacial pace.

• 18:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  And Gina Davis is starting to get impatient.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Like, it should happen right away. I keep saying, "This is the only direction it's going, toward equality. So can we just get there already?"

• 18:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Her real awakening came when she started having kids.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  So when my daughter was a toddler, I decided to start showing her, you know, preschool shows and G-rated videos and things like that. And the very first thing I sat down to watch with her was a kids' TV show. And within five minutes, I was saying, "Wait a minute. How many female characters are in this show?"

• 18:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Was this Sesame Street?

• 18:59Speaker 01

  I never bust anybody publicly.

• 19:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  So do you want to cough if...

• 19:05Speaker 01

  I'll tell you what, I'll blink, yeah.

• 19:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  And I started counting on my hands. And then I looked online to, you know, see what it said about this show. And it had 19 male characters before they added one female character.

• 19:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Davis started to notice this pattern everywhere. If a show didn't happen to have a princess in it, there probably weren't many females. Like in the hugely popular animated movie, whose title Davis, again, won't say, but I'm pretty sure rhymes with schminding schmimo.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  That had only one female character in the entire movie. And an important character, but nonetheless. And I was horrified and absolutely stunned to learn this. And I asked my friends, my best friends, mothers of daughters, had they noticed? And none of them had noticed, so...

• 20:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  They'd literally not noticed the disparity, you're saying?

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Yes, they had no clue about the disparity.

• 20:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  She seemed to have stumbled across an invisible problem.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  So, because I have meetings all the time in my industry with producers or directors, whoever, I started bringing it up. In every meeting I took, I would say, "Have you ever noticed how few female characters there are in movies made for kids?" And every single person, I'm talking about dozens and dozens of people, said, "Oh, that's not true anymore. That's been fixed." And it wasn't that they were like, "Oh, no, that's not important." They were like passionate about it. They were telling me how much they care about it at this studio, at this company. And so that's what made me realize I need the data because I can't believe that I'm the only person to notice this.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  But the people making this stuff don't even see what they're doing.

• 21:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  In 2004, Davis started the Gina Davis Institute on Gender in Media. First step? Collect data to see if her observation about the on-screen gender imbalance was true.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  So that's what I did. I raised funds and helped sponsor the largest study ever done on kids TV. And... Movies made for kids.

• 21:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  This study, released in 2008, looked at hundreds of top-grossing movies released between 1990 and 2005, along with a sample of TV shows. It found that in G-rated films, only 28% of the speaking characters were female, and an even smaller percent when you looked across all ratings. This gave credence to what's known as the Bechdel Test, which was inspired by a comic strip drawn by the graphic novelist Alison Bechdel. It is a gauge of whether a movie includes at least two women talking to each other about something other than a man. The study Davis commissioned also found a disproportionately high share of white characters in movies and TV shows.

• 22:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, an overwhelming representation of white maleness, which, perhaps not coincidentally, could also describe the personnel in many Hollywood studios at the time.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  And my plan was I'll go back to them in a private way, not bust anybody publicly, and see if that has any impact. So that's what I did.

• 22:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what happened?

• 22:27Speaker 01

  What happened was, all these people who couldn't see the problem whatsoever and literally thought that things were 50/50, were horrified. And I think because people who make kids entertainment do it because they love kids, they were completely nonplussed that they hadn't realized this.

• 22:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  But maybe, just maybe, there was good reason why so many characters in films and TV were male. Maybe it had to do with economic theory, or at least what passed for an economic theory. It went like this: The way to make money in Hollywood was to make movies geared toward a male audience.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  That's something that Hollywood has sort of lived by and made every decision. About that, you know, men just don't want to watch women, so we must make everything about men and we'll stick one in or something who's pretty but or hot.

• 23:23Speaker 06

  In the 90s, I think the belief was that, you know, teen males and 20 something males are the ones that will show up and knock down your doors on a Friday night at a movie theater.

• 23:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Sean Bailey. He is president of production at Walt Disney Studios.

• 23:38Speaker 06

  And that was the way you could get a huge opening weekend. And that's what a lot of places played primarily to. And, and by the way, it's not altogether untrue either.

• 23:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  But just how true is it, or was it at least back in the 90s? And even if very true back then, how much has it changed? And if it hasn't changed much, why not? One reason, of course, could be discrimination. Let's first talk about what economists mean when they talk about discrimination.

• 24:10Speaker 07

  Discrimination is typically defined as differences in observable outcomes, such as wages or such as performance evaluations, that cannot be attributed directly to underlying differences in performance.

• 24:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Aislinn Boren. She's an economist at the University of Pennsylvania.

• 24:27Speaker 07

  So for example, if we were looking at gender discrimination, economists would define discrimination as occurring if a male and a female generated similar performance, but they were treated differently in terms of how they were paid or in how they were evaluated based on differences that are not attributed to any performance differences.

• 24:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  There are, however, different flavors or sources of discrimination.

• 24:50Speaker 07

  The first would be a preference or a taste based source, which would say that the discrimination occurred because the evaluator who's determining the wage or the performance evaluation has some sort of preference or dislike for the group that they're discriminating against.

• 25:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Gina Davis does not think that's what causes gender disparity in Hollywood. Her belief is based on how the studios responded to the gender data she showed them.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  This is a few years ago, but we did a survey of top executives to see what they thought about what they learned. And something like 90% said it was definitely having impact on them and that they thought it was very important. To show gender parity.

• 25:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  OK, so let's accept, at least for the sake of argument, that Hollywood doesn't exercise taste-based discrimination against female characters.

• 25:43Speaker 07

  A second source would be a belief-based source. And this would be when there's no preference or dislike for a particular group. But because the underlying quality is not perfectly observable, the evaluator is going to form a belief about performance that's based not only on any signal of performance from that individual, but also from some underlying belief about whether different groups have different average performance differences. Belief-based is also known as statistical discrimination. And historically, when economists use the word statistical discrimination, they're referring to belief-based differences that are actually based on correct beliefs.

• 26:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  This gets to what Gina Davis said earlier regarding Hollywood's belief about male moviegoers.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  That, you know, men just don't want to watch women.

• 26:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  And was this belief-based difference based on a correct belief?

• 26:32Speaker 02

  It is true that a decade ago, films led by men made a lot more money on average than films led by women.

• 26:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Caroline Heldman, a political scientist at Occidental College and the research director at the Gina Davis Institute.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  So in terms of box office revenues, what we found is that in the past decade, the gap in terms of films led by men and films led by women has closed.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  And in fact, we studied 2015, 16, and 17, and found that in all those years, movies starring a female character made more at the box office.

• 27:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Indeed, the three top grossing domestic films of 2017 were Star Wars: The Last Jedi, which had male and female leads, a live-action remake of Beauty and the Beast, interestingly, with Emma Watson playing Belle, and Wonder Woman, starring the Israeli actress Gal Gadot. And yet, males continued to be cast, much more often in leading roles. They're also paid a lot more. One analysis found that even after controlling for an actor's past performance, including awards, female stars were paid 56% less than male stars, or about $2.2 million less per film. Caroline Heldman again.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  You know, Hollywood is leaving money on the table if they continue to cast men at twice the rate that they cast women to lead major films.

• 28:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you're saying the Hollywood idea is that boys and men need to star in films because audiences prefer them. But if the data show that films with female leads generate more money, and since it's an industry, why on earth is that gap still existing?

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Ah ha. You ask a very good question. And I will say that the evidence has been clear for a while now that if a company has more women on the board, it will make more money. And yet, the percentage of women on boards, the progress is absolutely glacial. Nobody seems to be saying, oh, my God, this is a great idea. Let's just do this. And there's other examples of that where people know that including women is going to make them more money, and they don't do it. So as far as the film industry, it's the same.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  They know that, and yet they can't seem to overcome their own conscious or unconscious bias.

• 29:09Speaker 07

  So there's a third source of discrimination, and that is inaccurate statistical discrimination.

• 29:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  The Economist Aislinn Boren again.

• 29:17Speaker 07

  And so as I mentioned previously, there's two main sources of discrimination that economists have historically looked at. One is this taste or preference-based discrimination. The second is belief-based discrimination with the implicit assumption that beliefs are correct. And so the third category is still belief-based discrimination in the sense that the employer or the evaluator believes that there are performance differences at the group level between two different groups, for example, men and women. But now their beliefs may be inaccurate or incorrect.

• 29:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  You can imagine why it's important to identify the difference between accurate and inaccurate statistical discrimination.

• 29:55Speaker 07

  From a policy perspective, it's important because the policies to try and reduce discrimination are going to be different if you're trying to correct for... Employers are people who have a preference against a certain group versus people who have correct or accurate beliefs about performance differences across groups versus people who have inaccurate beliefs about these performance differences.

• 30:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Boran did an experiment to look into this with fellow economists Karim Hagag, Alex Imos, and Devin Pope.

• 30:25Speaker 07

  We wanted to see whether a simple informational intervention, such as presenting employers with the actual performances of workers from the different groups, would have any effect on their beliefs and therefore the discrimination stemming from inaccurate beliefs.

• 30:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  To run their experiment, they recruited people from Amazon's Mechanical Turk platform. Some would act as employers and some employees. First came a group of roughly 600 employees. Two-thirds of these research subjects were American, the rest were from India. In the first phase of the experiment, the researchers had all these employees answer 50 math questions, and they were paid according to how well they did.

• 31:07Speaker 07

  We found that workers from the US performed slightly better. It was about 37 questions on average correctly for workers from the US and about 36.3 for workers from India.

• 31:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Then the researchers turned to the employer group. They would have a chance to hire potential employees from this pool of 600 people, but they were only given basic demographic information, including country of origin. They were not given the results of the math test. The employers were then asked how much they'd be willing to pay each employee.

• 31:40Speaker 07

  So if there was accurate statistical discrimination, the employer would say, "Look, on average, American workers are outperforming these Indian workers, and therefore, because I don't know the performance of a particular individual worker from the US or an individual worker from India when I'm choosing to hire them, I'm going to use these group averages to form my beliefs about the performance of the individual."

• 32:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  And is that what happened?

• 32:07Speaker 07

  So we actually observed the opposite. The wages offered to workers from India were about $2 higher on average than the wages offered to the workers from the United States.

• 32:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  So the offers weren't consistent with performance, but they did seem consistent with the employer's beliefs about performance, which was that Indians would score better than Americans on math.

• 32:31Speaker 07

  We find that the employers believe that Indian workers outperform American workers by about 2.8 or so questions on average. So when we look at this, we find that the wages offered by the employers are consistent with their beliefs. That's suggestive of belief-based discrimination, rather than any sort of preference favoring Indian workers.

• 32:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  OK, so that sounds like inaccurate statistical discrimination in action. What would happen if the employers were given accurate information? That's exactly what Boren and her team now did. They divulged the actual math scores for each group and asked the employers to do a second round of hiring. So what happened now?

• 33:15Speaker 07

  We found that, once we provided information on the performance differences, the gap in the wage paid to these two groups shrunk. So this is suggestive that one potential intervention to try and correct for inaccurate beliefs is just provide employers or provide evaluators with the actual performance of different groups. Say, look, here's the average performance of workers from this group. Maybe you should rethink how you're evaluating them or how you're choosing to pay them, because the performance differences are not as large as you thought.

• 33:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that, it turns out, is exactly what Gina Davis has been trying to do in Hollywood. Tell all those studio executives and producers and directors that women are the target of inaccurate statistical discrimination. Coming up after the break, at least one studio has taken the message to heart, and you may be surprised to hear which one.

• 34:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. The best investments are the ones you make in yourself, and no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. With more than 200 online degree programs, no set class times, and low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University is built to fit your life today and set you up for success tomorrow. Education is an investment. Why not make it a smart one? Apply for free at SNHU.edu/freakonomics. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing

• 35:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example? Well, PNC Bank did since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely-not-YOLO type. PNC Bank: brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank: National Association, Member FDIC. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Hotels.com. Hotels.com helps you find and book the right stay for work faster.

• 35:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  With business preferences, save your travel must-haves, like gym access or breakfast, just once, then get tailored results whenever you search for work travel. Plus, with a free membership, you can save up to 20% on hotels and earn rewards on every stay for future travel. Book now at hotels.com. Visit hotels.com for details.

• 36:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  We've been talking today about Disney princessism, how the main female characters in a lot of traditional kids' movies were prized mostly for their beauty, but they weren't really protagonists. Things happened to them, but they didn't have much agency. We've also been talking about how, in the earlier days of kids' TV, there weren't many female characters at all. Here's what the actor Gina Davis-- by the way, she prefers actor to actress-- here's what she told us about the beloved educational series with a cast of puppet characters.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  It had 19 male characters before they added one female character.

• 36:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  For the past 15 years, the Gina Davis Institute on Gender in Media has been updating its numbers on gender representation in kids' entertainment.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  It's kind of like Super Bowl Sunday, when I get the data and I open it up, because then I get to see whether or not we've made significant strides.

• 37:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  That, again, is Caroline Heldman, the institute's director of research.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  And I'll tell you, the last couple of years, this story has been so positive. It's small, but it's been in the right direction.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  We have a brand-new research study that we're profoundly psyched about, because we just relooked at TV shows made for little kids. So we're talking 11 and under. And for the first time--

• 37:39Speaker 02

  Female characters accounted for 55.3% of screen time and 50% of speaking time.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  The percentage of female lead characters has gone up to 46.8%, which is pretty much parity. And we're, like, over the moon about that.

• 37:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  What was that number maybe 10 or 20 years ago?

• 38:03Speaker 01

  The ratio was 2 or 3 to 1, male to female lead characters. And so I'm pretty sure that this is the only sector of gross gender inequality in the entire business, in front of and behind the camera, that has-- Change dramatically.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  A lot of folks don't know that Hollywood actually, in its very early years, the silent years, was more gender equitable than it is today. But as soon as it became big business, it became a male-dominated sector. About 20% of the key decision-making roles in film are held by women. And in television, that number hovers around 30%.

• 38:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  Key decision-making roles, meaning executive jobs as well as producers, directors, cinematographers, and so on.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  It's especially the case for women of color. And while there have been small gains in recent years, we have seen very little traction for the last couple of decades that we have studied this.

• 39:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what's your, not evidence necessarily, but what's your reckoning as to how much that is a supply issue and how much it's a demand issue?

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Right. So I definitely think that the interest and, in many cases, the supply is there. For example, only 4% of films are directed by women. And people have said exactly what you said, that, well, they're not as interested, da, da, da. But 50% of film schools are now women. They want to be directors. They graduate with the same abilities.

• 39:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  But there is one major studio that has substantially changed the status quo.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. They just announced that 40% of their directors coming up are women. And, I mean, that's like 10 times better than anybody else is doing. So that's, that's really incredible. They also make more movies starring a female character than not.

• 40:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Which studio might that be? I'll give you a hint. We heard from someone there earlier, talking about why so many films have male leads.

• 40:16Speaker 06

  You know, teen males and 20-something males are the ones that will show up and knock down your doors on a Friday night.

• 40:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  And who is that?

• 40:23Speaker 06

  My name is Sean Bailey. And my title is President of Production at Walt Disney Studios.

• 40:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  The Walt Disney Company is so massive, it's split into a few different studios. Disney Animation and Pixar Animation oversee the animated features. There's also Marvel and 20th Century Fox, which Disney bought earlier this year. As head of Walt Disney Studios, Sean Bailey oversees the live-action divisions. In recent years, this has included live-action remakes of Disney's own classics.

• 40:54Speaker 06

  Many of those had been animated in terms of what we'll call the broadened definition of a Disney fairy tale. And we sort of, you know, thought, well, that's largely for a family audience. And then we started to realize, wait a second, that there's a hugely underserved portion of the audience here that is not only family, but clearly, you know, women are more than half of the population, so. And everybody's sort of caught up in, you know, making movies for the teen and 20-something male. We may have a tremendous opportunity here.

• 41:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  When Bailey joined Disney in 2010, he inherited a live-action remake of Alice in Wonderland. Tim Burton directed. It starred Anne Hathaway, Mia Wachikowska, Johnny Depp, and Helena Bonham Carter. It was a huge hit, grossing $1 billion worldwide.

• 41:42Speaker 06

  And we really spent some time thinking about it. And there was a quote from Walt that I won't get precisely right, but I'll paraphrase it here, which is, someone once said to him, "You make these animated movies for children." And he responded fairly forcefully, and he said, "No, I don't. I make movies for all of us, whether we're six or 60. It's just that many of us have forgotten what it feels like to be a kid." And so I think what the breakthrough was, was sort of this audience we felt was underserved, tied to this idea that we aren't making movies for just families and just for kids. We're trying to make movies for everybody. And once we do that... The female audience in particular is huge and these can become, you know,

• 42:24Speaker 06

  really, really significant films from a global box office perspective. And I think there's, by the way, not just the commercial returns, but there are great stories to tell that we don't think any of our competitors are really focused on currently.

• 42:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Stories like Maleficent, for instance, based on the evil godmother from Sleeping Beauty. And, as we noted earlier, live action remakes of old princess movies, including

• 42:49Speaker 06

  Beauty and the Beast.

• 42:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's the one with Belle. And if you've forgotten, here's the plot summary as told by Anya Dubner.

• 42:57Speaker 04

  She gets trapped in a castle. She meets this big beast and he becomes nice and gentle. And then somehow he becomes a handsome prince.

• 43:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  If you've seen the 2017 remake with Emma Watson, you probably noticed some tweaks.

• 43:13Speaker 06

  We did recognize that from a gender perspective, it's a complicated story. And so we really worked to, you know, sort of bolster and ballast parts of the story, such as why does Belle live in the provincial town? And we gave a backstory that the mother had fallen ill with the plague in Paris and they'd moved away and that the father Maurice was incredibly overprotective and why he didn't want her to leave. We really worked on the idea that why doesn't Belle just leave? So we worked hard on the scene where, for example, the beast saves her from the wolf attack and he's in mortal peril. And so she stays with him because she's such a good soul that her conscience

• 43:55Speaker 06

  couldn't allow her to leave him to die, which gave them a little time to bond. And we also thought it was really important to have her try to escape, have her not engage with him. And at a certain point in the movie, and I'm not going to get the dialogue exactly right, but he says, could you ever be happy here? And she says,

• 44:13Speaker 04

  Can anybody be happy if they aren't free?

• 44:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  This neo-princessism model seems to be paying off. Beauty and the Beast became one of the highest grossing films in modern history, which, along with the other high-grossing films with female leads, you might think would naturally lead to even more starring roles for more women in more films. But that's not quite the case. Why not? Sean Bailey from Disney has a theory.

• 44:41Speaker 06

  One thing we've seen that I think is interesting and relevant is directors tend to be very visual, and I'm talking from both a gender and sort of inclusion and diversity perspective. If you send a script to a director, they're going to read the script and envision things in their mind. And once a director has painted a picture in his or her head, it's more difficult to sort of disavow them of that vision. And so we've started trying in our screenplays to more specifically call out gender, ethnicity, so that they can have a different opinion, but they aren't starting from, you know, whatever their baseline bias and assumption may be.

• 45:23Speaker 06

  The other thing we often find is, let's talk in these fairy tale movies as example, the filmmaker says, "Well, you know, I'm being true to the period of the film. I'm being true to the historical period." To which we say, "Well, what on earth are you talking about? Because we have, you know, spells and magic mirrors and, you know, candelabras that used to be people. So there is no period. We can, we can make the history, you know, as we would like it to be."

• 45:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  There's also the delicate issue, well, you wouldn't think it would be delicate, but it is, of casting an African-American actress to play Ariel in a live-action remake of The Little Mermaid.

• 46:06Speaker 06

  With Halle Bailey, that's just sort of a case of, for us, we looked for the very best Ariel.

• 46:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Halle Bailey, no relation to Sean Bailey, is a 19-year-old R&B singer.

• 46:17Speaker 06

  I remember specifically, all of us sat in the room and heard her sing and saw her perform, and we thought, that's her. And, you know, we heard some criticism.

• 46:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Criticism especially from the Twitterverse. The cartoon Ariel had white skin and red hair. How could Halle Bailey replace her?

• 46:37Speaker 06

  And I heard things like, when the announcement went out, some friends of mine who were at the Essence event in Atlanta described, they didn't know why, a cheer went up through the hall. You know, I heard all sides of it. And for us, it was just as simple, as I say, as, you know, talent wins.

• 46:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  The original Little Mermaid was also considered problematic on the gender front because Ariel, in order to get her man, has to give up her voice, her most magical and distinctive quality. You can see why this might fly in 19th century Denmark, when Hans Christian Andersen wrote the Little Mermaid fairy tale. But in 21st century anywhere, the idea of a woman literally silencing herself in the pursuit of romance feels pretty 19th century. The new Little Mermaid is scheduled to come out next year, and we asked Sean Bailey about that.

• 47:31Speaker 06

  Well, I don't want to say too much about it because they do involve some sort of plot changes. It's something we've talked a lot about, and we are definitely working to still sort of deliver the beautiful foundations of that story while being cognizant of the times we find ourselves in. I will say, on a more personal front, I have a daughter, and, you know, I took this job around 10 years ago. She was around seven years old. And I watched, as I was preparing to take the job, a lot of the old animated pictures. And while they're wonderful in many, many ways, I was watching them with my daughter and, you know, thought, if we're going to tell them now, there's a lot of things we

• 48:13Speaker 06

  should probably do for little girls who are going to watch these versions, and for young men, by the way, as well. So what's the world that we want to reflect while respecting what is clearly, you know, timeless about the stories?

• 48:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  I think those are pigeons or doves.

• 48:33Speaker 04

  I hope not pigeons.

• 48:36Speaker 04

  She looks a little like a dovener.

• 48:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  So this is what you were talking about of the...

• 48:40Speaker 04

  Right.

• 48:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 48:42Speaker 04

  I think this is like the first time we really hear her speak.

• 48:47Speaker 04

  And we don't know anything about her, except she wants to find a prince. And then here he comes.

• 48:52Speaker 08

  Good day! Oh! Hello? Oh! Did I frighten you?

• 49:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wait, wait, please. My daughter, Anya, and I wrapped up our princessism conversation by watching Snow White. That was the movie that led her, as a teenager, to start rethinking how she used to think about princesses. I asked her what specifically had bothered her.

• 49:19Speaker 04

  Mainly what she wanted. She wished to meet a man. That was her one wish. She adhered to the stereotypical woman of the house role. I watched this as a kid and was unfazed by how objectively suggestive this movie was. The feeling that took over me most was confusion. Like, why did my parents let me watch this? What were they thinking? No, I mean, what were you thinking? Did you realize it was problematic in any way, or...?

• 49:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Honestly, I think the opposite. So you were born in 2002, right? So, and Snow White was made in the 1930s, I believe?

• 49:55Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 49:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  So I think most parents in my generation probably thought that going back to then was not only normal, but like, it was the right kind of traditional.

• 50:03Speaker 04

  Right.

• 50:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Because it's like, not full of weird, modern, terrible things.

• 50:09Speaker 04

  Right.

• 50:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  And it's kind of sweet and lovely.

• 50:11Speaker 04

  Right.

• 50:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  And did you think that back when you were a kid too? I mean, did you like that stuff?

• 50:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it's fantasy. Who wouldn't want to show their kids that? I think it's just the underlying factors that make you take a step back and be like, wow. That could be really impactful.

• 50:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  What do you mean when you say "underlying factors"?

• 50:27Speaker 04

  The ideals of princesses, wanting to be beautiful, finding a prince, and having your wishes come true is fun, of course. And I don't think that they should completely be frowned on. The only thing is that... They shouldn't be exclusive of, you know, being a badass woman and being really, really determined and having your life go well and working hard for what you want.

• 50:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  So let me ask you this. If you were running, let's say, a Hollywood studio right now or a TV network, what do you think are good solutions? Should it be like a quota system? Should you ban men from certain production facilities?

• 51:01Speaker 04

  That would be the worst thing to do.

• 51:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Because why?

• 51:03Speaker 04

  Because that would send out a big middle finger to all men and then more people would be angry. You know, we need men. We just need women, too. And I think that that's probably the biggest misconception in feminism. And if that's what feminism were, I'd be the opposite of a feminist. But I think the only people that really are able to have the biggest impact on movies and how they affect children are the people in the industry themselves. Emma Watson, she's somebody that I admire greatly. She was Princess Belle in the most recent movie. And she refused to wear a corset. And it was this big deal, you know, why would you wear a corset in 2019? She refused to perpetuate

• 51:45Speaker 04

  the body that little girls were supposed to look up to. She said, no, this is going to be my real body. And I think that's a small, really small action, but I think it speaks volumes. Like, my initial reaction would be, you know, that society has to change first. But I think it has. So why haven't the movies?

• 52:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up next time, we just recorded a live show in Chicago, gathering some heavyweights for a Freakonomical conversation about US foreign policy.

• 52:23Speaker 09

  If you get it wrong, you could do really dumb things, like send an army to Iraq in 2003.

• 52:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  You'll hear from former Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel. I wasn't pissed. I was just, I couldn't understand what had happened. What's happened here? You'll hear from Washington veteran and potential future Secretary of Defense Michelle Flournoy.

• 52:46Speaker 10

  When you are a political appointee in an administration, you can't be wondering every day, is today the day I have to resign on principle? I mean, I just wasn't ready to sign up for that.

• 52:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's next time on Freakonomics Radio.

• 53:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Dubner Productions. This episode was produced by Daphne Chen. Our staff also includes Alison Kreglow, Greg Rippon, Harry Huggins, Zach Lepinski, Matt Hickey, and Corinne Wallace. Our intern is Ben Shamen. And we had help this week from Nellie Osborne. Our theme song is "Mr. Fortune" by The Hitchhikers. All the other music was composed by Luis Guerra. You can subscribe to Freakonomics Radio and give it a nice rating, if you'd like, on Apple Podcasts, or Google Podcasts, or Spotify, or any podcast app. Our entire archive can be found exclusively on the Stitcher podcast app or at Freakonomics.com, where we also publish show notes and transcripts and so on.

• 53:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  To get our entire archive without ads, as well as bonus episodes, go to StitcherPremium.com/Freakonomics. We also publish every week on Medium, a short text version of our new episode. Go to Medium.com/FreakonomicsRadio. We can also be found on Twitter, and Facebook, and LinkedIn, or via email at [email protected]. Freakonomics Radio also plays on many NPR stations, so check your local station for details. Most of all, thank you for listening.

• 54:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by EverPure. Is the value of AI not living up to the promise? The problem is probably your data, not your AI models. When it's scattered across different systems, getting your data AI-ready is a challenge. You keep your AI waiting, and everything slows down. EverPure unifies your data, so you can see it, understand it, and control it all from one simple place, and get it AI-ready fast. Unlock the true value of your AI at EverPureData.com.

• 55:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Ozempic. Innovation happens through rethinking what's possible. And when it comes to GLP-1s, Ozempic pill does just that. Learn more about Ozempic semaglutide tablets, 4 in 9mg, by calling 1-833-OZEMPIC, or visit Ozempic.com to view the medication guide. And ask your doctor what's possible with FDA-approved Ozempic pill.

• 55:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern Company. The world and its energy needs are always changing. Southern Company's commitment to meeting this demand stays the same. That's because Southern Company believes energy is more than a utility. It's what powers possibilities. So they are looking ahead and investing $80 billion in infrastructure upgrades and are committed to fueling growth in ways that benefit all customers so that reliable and affordable energy is accessible for generations to come. Go to southerncompany.com to learn more. Southern Company, building the future of energy.

• 56:09Speaker 08

  This episode is brought to you by Charles Schwab. Is there a right time to sell a stock? Are you taking the right risks with your portfolio? Financial decisions can be tricky, and often, your own cognitive and emotional biases can lead you astray. Financial Decoder, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, can help. Join host Mark Reapy as he offers practical solutions to help overcome the cognitive and emotional biases that may affect your investing decisions. Listen at schwab.com/financialdecoder.