321. Extra: Richard Branson Full Interview

Stephen Dubner's conversation with the Virgin Group founder, recorded for the Freakonomics Radio series “The Secret Life of a C. E. O.”

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on the things you love, like those iced lattes that help you get ready to face the day. So switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens,

• 0:43Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:25Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:11Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, this is Stephen Dubner. You are about to hear a conversation with Richard Branson, founder of the international conglomerate The Virgin Group. I spoke with Branson in November for our special series, The Secret Life of a CEO. We will be releasing full interviews from that series as bonus episodes, one a week for the next six weeks. You'll hear my lightly edited conversations with Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook, Satya Nadella of Microsoft, and others. Hope you enjoy.

• 3:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hello, this is Stephen Dubner. Is that Richard Branson?

• 3:21Speaker 01

  I am. I'm Richard Branson here. Nice to talk to you.

• 3:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Nice to talk to you, too. Thank you so much for making the time. How's things?

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Pleasure. Everything's very good, thank you. I'm sitting here with a cup of tea in my hand and I wish we were talking in person. But anyway, nice to talk to you.

• 3:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right. So let's begin, if you would, just literally say your name and what you do.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Yep, my name is Richard Branson. And what do I do? I do everything Virgin.

• 3:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, I'm sure most of our listeners are quite familiar with you, but just pretend there's someone out there who lives in a cave who's never heard of Richard Branson. How do you describe yourself to them, at least your professional self?

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Well, I am an entrepreneur. I suppose you'd also categorize me as an adventurer and hopefully a philanthropist. So those are my three main areas of occupation these days.

• 4:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  A tangential and very small question, but one that I'm curious to know. The Virgin logo is one of the most recognizable in the world, and I would argue one of the most elegant as well. I've read a little bit about its history. I know it came from Virgin Records and Roger Dean was the original designer and that it morphed over the years. But can you just talk for a moment about the logo itself and what it means to you, I guess?

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Yes. I mean, I was 16 when I started off in business. So I was Virgin at business. And we were either going to call the company Slip Disc Records or Virgin Records. Fortunately, we went for Virgin because Slip Disc Airlines would not have been a great success, I think. And we started with a fairly sort of hippie-based looking logo by Roger Dean. And then when we signed the Sex Pistols, we felt the logo was not going to be appropriate.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  So we got somebody into the office and we talked at great lengths about what we wanted. And I stood up to go to the loo and I walked past him and he just scribbled on a napkin, the Virgin logo. He just signed the word Virgin. And I said, you don't have to do anything more. We have our logo. And it became the iconic logo of the last 50 years.

• 5:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Was it in red originally?

• 5:55Speaker 01

  I think the original scribble, I can't remember whether he scribbled it with a red barrow or a black barrow, but anyway, it became red from day one. And we were fortunate to get that bold, bold, bold color and the bold logo, just very simple. I mean, it's just, it can be used tiny, it can be used large. You know, we're just building, you know, three enormous cruise ships. And I've just seen the logo on the side and it works, it works really whatever, whatever size.

• 6:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  You know, obviously, it's not your last name. It doesn't say Branson, but Virgin has come to mean almost Branson. I'm just curious, what does it, what does it feel like for you to see that logo on all these different things, whether small or, you know, cruise ship size?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Well, I still pinch myself. I mean, I still get enormous satisfaction if somebody comes up to me and say they've just flown on a Virgin Atlantic or Virgin America plane and had a wonderful experience or, you know, worked out in a Virgin active club or being on a Virgin train or booked a ticket on Virgin Galactic. I mean, and, and, you know, I must admit, I sometimes think I'm going to wake up one day and just realize I've just had the most incredible dream. And I'll be, you know, well, hopefully back as a, back as a poor student again one day and starting all over again.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  But yeah, so I've been very fortunate, had an extraordinary life. Just finished publishing my second autobiography, so that's, I suppose, says, you know, says it's been pretty full. And, and it's been an incredible ride. So, yes, but, and I appreciate every minute of it.

• 7:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, your title, your official title, as far as I can tell, is Founder, Virgin Group. In addition to that, are you the CEO of anything?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  I used to be, but I've delegated pretty well all the CEO roles. And I actually believe that people should delegate early on in their businesses. So they can start thinking about the bigger picture. You know, if I'm ever giving a talk to a group of young business people, I will tell them, you know, go and take a week out to find somebody as good or better than yourself. Put yourself out of business and let them get on and run your business day to day.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  And then you can start, you know, start dealing with the bigger issues. And you can, you know, take the company forward into bigger areas. And you can, maybe if you're an entrepreneur, you can start your second business or your third business. And so I think too many, too many young entrepreneurs, you just want to cling on to everything and they're not, they're not good delegators.

• 9:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  But it's true also, at least I would argue, I'm curious to hear your take, that, you know, there's, I think in the, in the, in the public perception, there's sometimes not that much difference between the entrepreneur and the CEO. But in fact, the, the energy and the ideas and even the personality of the person who creates a firm is often very different from the, the energy and so on of the person to be executing and running the firm daily. Do you see that split in that way? Or do you think that's a little bit of a misperception?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  I think it's more often than not that you're correct. There are, there are exceptions to the rule. I mean, for instance, when we had A record company in Germany many years ago, the person who actually ran the record company was a true CEO. He was not an entrepreneur. He was great with people. He didn't want to stray from his job of running the record company and he did a fine job. Whereas in France, we had a guy called Patrick Zelnick, who was a CEO, but he was also

• 10:27Speaker 01

  an entrepreneur. And he took the record company into Virgin Megastores, into all sorts of different businesses, a bit like myself. And he pulled it off. But, you know, once he'd become a true entrepreneur, you know, the two of us sat down and he then just found other people to be the CEOs who were perhaps less entrepreneurial, who would, you know, stick to their onions and do the day-to-day running well. And because it's, you know, it's difficult to concentrate on looking after your people and also be, you know, being an entrepreneur.

• 11:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  I know that once when you were asked how involved you are in the mechanics of your businesses, you said, "I don't understand these things completely." And you said, "I've never been able to know the difference between net and gross." I'm guessing you were exaggerating at least a little bit, or no?

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Well, I'm quite badly dyslexic. And really bizarrely, and it was on my 50th birthday, that I was having a meeting with a group of executives. And I asked the question, "Is that good news or bad news?" When some figures were given to me. And one of the executives took me outside the room, and he'd already prepared himself for this. He had some coloring pencils, and he had a blank sheet of paper, and he colored in this piece

• 12:09Speaker 01

  of paper blue. And then he put a net, a fishing net amongst the monks, and he put little fish in the fishing net. And he said, "Richard..." Uh, the, I don't think you know the difference between net and gross. And let me simplify it for you. The fish, the fish in the net are um, are your profit. And, and the, all the fish that are not in the net are your, are your gross turnover. And um, hey presto, I got it. And um, and ever since then, I've been, you know, very swankly saying net profit and gross turnover. And as, as, as if nobody else knew that knew it before.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Um, but um, but the, but the, the bizarre thing is that we, by then, we had the biggest group of private companies in Europe. And I'd, and, and I'd managed to build all these companies without knowing it. And, and, and I think that should be reassuring for all those kids who'd failing their, their ma- their mass exams. It, it, it actually, it actually doesn't matter a damn. What matters is, you know, if you create, you know, have you created the best company? Uh, you know, the best airline or the best record company and, and, and, and, and the best train company? And if you have created the best, um, your figures will add up at the end of the year. And you'll have more money coming in than going out.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  And um, and you can, you can, you can employ some accountants to work out the difference between net and gross.

• 13:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, maybe it's um, maybe you're a fluke or maybe it's a bit of a generational thing. Maybe the world has just changed a lot, but you know, management has obviously become very, very professionalized in the last twenty or thirty years. And you know, MBA programs are just exploding everywhere. There's so, a- and so now to be the uh, the CEO of even a very small company. One is expected to be extremely well drilled in all the things that it sounds like you've really never had to uh, had to um, be very good at. Do you think that that professionalization of leadership is in some ways a mistake? That someone like you had a lot of instinct and energy and true appreciation for what you're trying to do with a company?

• 14:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that some of that gets killed off um, by this professionalization of the leadership class?

• 14:30Speaker 01

  I think it can be. I think if you feel that if you feel a little bit lost in a company because of that, that should spur you on just to get out and run your own company. I mean, I've never had to report to anybody since I was, well, since I left school at 15. And that's the luxury. And, you know, I can do foolish things like let's start a spaceship company, which, you know, if I was working for a public company or, you know, or a, you

• 15:08Speaker 01

  know, a normal company, I would never, never have got it through. And so, you know, so the great thing about being an entrepreneur, I mean, I think entrepreneurs are a class unto themselves. You know, they do not need that professionalism. They need a passion, an absolute passion for what they're doing. They need an absolute belief in what they're doing. They need to be wonderful motivators of people, inspirational leaders. And, you know, that, you know, those are the key things that they need.

• 15:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can you talk a little bit more about being a wonderful motivator of people? By all reports, everything I've read about you, it sounds as though most of the people who work with you and for you really like you and that you, I don't know about, go out of your way to treat your coworkers well, but you have a lot of policies that are very employee friendly and so on. I think a lot of people out there, bosses, whether they're CEOs or down, they'd like to be like that and they'd like to motivate people, but it's hard. Do you have any secret advice?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I think, you know, what I find...

• 16:24Speaker 01

  I find that some American companies are anything but good at motivating people. And I find that hard, I mean, hard to understand because, you know, if you, if you've got a happy, motivated group of people you're working with, you can achieve anything. And, you know, you can ride, you can ride the good times together, you can ride the bad times together. If you treat your people badly, you know, they're not gonna, they're not gonna go that extra mile when things, when things are, you know, are tough.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  And, and, and that, you know, they're, they're, you know, so, I mean, I, I just think you, you know, you, you should treat your people in the same way that you treat your family. I mean, if you, you know, if you, if, you know, however you would treat your, your, your brothers and sisters or your children, the same should apply exactly to the people you work with. And, and it's, it's so much more pleasant. I mean, you know, I mean, a lot of our time we spend at work and, and work should be fun. It should be enjoyable. And, and you should then, you should also have policies that, that follow through with that. So, you know, people want to work from home, let them work from home.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  If people want to work from home on Fridays and Mondays, let them work from home Fridays and Mondays. If, you know, people want to, you know, take a month off and go around the world, let them take a month off and go around the world. I mean, you, you, you, you know, people will give everything back if you give them the, the flexibility and treat them like adults.

• 18:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  I hear you and I so want to believe that that's the way to be. But the skeptic in me just thinks, well, if every company let everybody work from home, Fridays and Mondays, and let them take a week off and go take balloon trips or climb a mountain, that, you know, productivity would plummet and the economy would fall apart. Why do people not exploit that at your firm at least?

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Because they feel trusted. And also, let's just look at this business of forcing people to come to an office. First of all, you've got maybe an hour or an hour and a half of travel time in the morning, another hour and a half of travel time in the evening.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  You know, when you're at the office, it's important that you say hello to everybody and you're friendly with everybody. So you use up another hour or two, you know, socializing with people. Then, because you're not at home, you need to communicate with your family. So you spend another bit of time communicating with your family. And so the day carries on and you might get a couple of hours worked. If you're at home, you can wake up, you can, you know, you can find some, you can spend a bit of time with your family and, you know, and be a proper father,

• 19:26Speaker 01

  which is perhaps the most important, or mother, most important things that we can do in our life. But you can also find the time to get whatever your job is done. Because you've got another, you know, four or five hours free to do it. And, you know, we've never been let down by people, you know, that we've given that trust to. I think, you know, giving, you know, treating people as adults, giving people trust is so important. I mean, I'll just give you one other example, slightly different. But, I mean, we have a policy of giving ex-prisoners a second chance

• 20:08Speaker 01

  and taking on as many people who've been in prison as possible into our Virgin companies. Because we give them that trust, not one of them have ever re-offended.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  And, you know, we're talking, you know, like in Virgin Trains, I think we have, you know, thirty-five people. The person who's head of our security at Virgin Trains, she comes out of prison on a Monday morning,

• 20:39Speaker 01

  works until Friday night, goes back to prison for the weekend, comes out. You know, but, you know, she's absolutely brilliant at her job and somebody who will do everything they can for the company because the company has given them that second chance.

• 20:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  You have started and sold and shut down and grown many, many, many companies. Can you talk just for a moment about your overall win-loss record? I'm curious to know if you actually have ever tallied up the successes versus failures?

• 21:14Speaker 01

  I haven't. I mean, we've never had a company go bankrupt because our reputation is everything. And, you know, we believe that if you can afford to, if a company is not working out, you must settle all your debts. And, you know, so we've never had a bankruptcy and that's in 50 years. So we're proud of that. And that's, I think that's really helped keep the reputation of Virgin. But obviously, over 50 years, things change. So, you know, we give you a very good example.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  We started off with record shops and we built maybe 300 record shops around the world, Virgin mega stores. And then iTunes came along and the internet came along. And people sadly, you know, didn't see the need to go into record shops anymore. And so, you know, we, you know, we either sold or closed down most of those 300 record shops. There's still a few left in the Middle East, but that's about it now.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  And, but, you know, that spurred us on to, you know, move into mobile phones and into, you know, into new technology that was evolving. So rather, if mobile phones was going to put us out of business and games, you know, people, a lot of kids were spending more time on games than music, then, you know, it was up to us to embrace it. And so we embrace that instead. And, and I think, you know, fortunately, we've been ahead of the game. You know, over the last 50 years. So, you know, by and by and large, we've had, you know, many more successes than we've had things which we've had to say goodbye to.

• 23:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, a lot of the the businesses you've been in, including some of the ones you just mentioned there, are not businesses that you build from scratch or even really necessarily run from the ground up, but they're more partnerships. And and the way you do business and the Virgin Group is a little bit different than than many other firms. You call it branded venture capital. Talk to me just about how that works and whether it was a happy accident or is that something that you decided strategically to pursue a long time ago?

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Well, I think I think just to be slightly more accurate, we've generally speaking, we started by owning pretty well every company. So we start, we start with 100% ownership in the companies. And and then over the years, in order to then invest in new entrepreneurial ventures that I may have come up with, we'll sell shares, we'll sell shares in the companies that we started. And sometimes we've, you know, sometimes we've sold 100%. But but we

• 24:35Speaker 01

  keep a brand royalty in in everything. So and we keep in touch with the Virgin brand. We monitor the Virgin brand. We have a team of people who monitor it and make to make absolutely certain that anybody who's running a version company respects the fact that our reputation for all of us is all we've got. So generally speaking, we'll start with 100% ownership and then maybe maybe over the years we'll sell down and then we'll put that money into new ventures.

• 25:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Thank you for that clarification. Was that the case with Virgin Mobile? Was that a little bit different or no?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  So Virgin Mobile, we own 50% of the company. So with Virgin Mobile, we didn't have the resources to build out a network. And we also didn't think that that would be our strength. What our strength was, was marketing to the public and the brand and the whole proposition. So we did a deal with a company called T-Mobile. And they took 50% of the company. They gave their infrastructure, their masks.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  And then, you know, we ran it on a day-to-day basis. We put the team in. And yep, we built a pretty formidable, successful company. And then we merged it with the biggest cable company in the UK. And it became Virgin Media. And yeah, so that's how that works out. And actually, in my new book, Finding My Virginity, I tell the story of how our partners and that one actually, you know, were, in our opinion, naughty boys and tried to, yeah, tried to steal the company from us. But anyway, we fortunately won quite a big court case on that there.

• 26:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up after the break, what does it mean to be a public-facing CEO? Perhaps the most public-facing CEO, at least after a certain Pennsylvania Avenue resident.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  I would do anything I could to get Virgin on the map, even if it meant, you know, jumping in boats or balloons.

• 27:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Also, how to go up against a much bigger competitor.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  You've got to take them to court before you go out of business, rather than after it's.

• 27:19Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 28:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com/freak. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/freak.

• 28:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds, because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on the things you love, like those iced lattes that help you get ready to face the day. So, switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states.

• 28:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example? Well, PNC Bank did since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely-not-YOLO type. PNC Bank: brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC.

• 29:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's get back to our lightly edited full conversation with Richard Branson, founder of The Virgin Group.

• 29:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Talk about your strategy for choosing the right CEO for a Virgin firm.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Oh, Helen? Could I have another cup of tea? Thank you. Sorry, I was going to order, being British, order some tea. Sorry, just say that again.

• 30:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Take your time. Yeah, yeah. I'd like to know your strategy for choosing the CEO of a Virgin firm. What do you, what do you look for? How do you, how is the process work and so on?

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Well, we, first of all, ideally, we'd like to promote from within. So, because I think there's nothing more discouraging for, you know, say, a thousand people who work in a company to, you know, for a so-called expert to be brought in from outside. And, you know, and generally, if you can't find a good CEO within, you know, with a thousand people in a company, there's something wrong, wrong in the first place. You should, you should have a, you should have deputies who are quite capable of stepping into the CEO's position.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  You know, I look for people who are fantastic motivators of people, people who praise people, who genuinely care about people, who, people who, you know, are not apt to criticize people. And obviously, they've got to be good at what they do.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  And, and then, you know, we, we, we let them get on with it.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  And we try not to second guess them.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  And we accept that, you know, some things they'll do differently than us, some things they'll do better than us.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  But, you know, by finding somebody, that frees me up to have a life and move on to, move on to other, other adventures or other entrepreneurial things. And so, so I think we, you know, I think we've, we've managed to get a great team. Now, the other advantage of promoting from within is you...

• 32:12Speaker 01

  You know, you know what you're getting. You don't, you know, quite often people bring in outside CEOs into a company and it can destroy the whole, you know, atmosphere of a company and, and, you know, damage can be enormous. And, and the other thing is, we try to look, we try to promote our CEOs, you know, I mean, we, we, you know, like, if I give you two examples, there was a recording studio division we, we, we had and there was an excellent lady that cleaned the floors. Anyway, she ended up, a girl called Barbara Jeffries, running the whole recording studio division. In Canada, we had a, an excellent

• 32:56Speaker 01

  receptionist who ended up being CEO of our foundation in Canada. And, you know, so I think, again, you've got to, you mustn't always put people in boxes based on their job. You've got to, you know, think, think that people are often capable of far more than meets the eye. And if you promote people above what they'd expect, they will give everything back.

• 33:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  You've been quite outspoken about supporting women in business leadership. A lot of virgin companies have or have had female CEOs or managing directors. But as I'm sure you know well, overall, especially in the States, there's relatively very few female CEOs, especially of big companies. What do you think is the issue there? And obviously, it's, it's not an easy problem to address. But what do you think is the issue? And what do you think are some smart steps to, to begin to address it?

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think that when you have a company dominated by men, you know, they, they apt, they're apt to think of, you know, their fellow men as the, as the next potential CEO, you know, rather than a woman. I mean, and therefore, my, my own instinct is that the only way of actually solving this, you know, in, in a relatively short term, is to...

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Force things upon companies. So in Scandinavia, they, the government has said that companies have to have forty percent, forty to fifty percent females as board directors of companies. And, you know, initially that was difficult because there just weren't enough obvious candidates to fill all the places. And a lot of women had a lot of different roles on a lot of different companies, the same women. But in time, people have realized how much better those companies

• 35:10Speaker 01

  are run. I mean, women, you know, let's say a supermarket chain, I mean, women have an awful lot to, you know, more knowledge than men on supermarket chains. And maybe they shouldn't, but they do. And, you know, and so on. I mean, you know, women are a breath of fresh air, actually, in most areas. So, yeah, so I think, you know, I think, you know, I think, I think it needs to be, I think we need to kickstart it, it needs to be forced on companies. I'm not sure that a lot of women agree with me on that. I've asked women and they say, no, we've got to fight our own corner. But, you know, personally,

• 35:55Speaker 01

  I'm not sure they're right, because I think, you know, I think there's a danger that that men will continue to appoint men. A virgin, you know, I mean, our bank in Britain is run by a wonderful woman called Jane Anne Gardia, who, you know, who's actually taken on, you know, taken a big sort of campaigning stance for women in Britain. The chairman of the bank is also a woman. And, you know, we're doing better and better. And, you know, the people we've got are the best for the job. They're not there just because they're a woman. They're there because they're really, really good at what they do.

• 36:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  And but there are many others. You have Mary Wittenberg, you have Lisa Thomas, there are many others. And I'm curious, you kind of are in a If not unique, unusual position to oversee a firm with a lot of female leadership and therefore you can kind of compare female leadership to male leadership. I'm curious, it's always hard to generalize, but do you see significant differences in female versus male leadership at your firms at least?

• 37:02Speaker 01

  I wouldn't say significant. I would say a good female leader is just as good as a good male leader and vice versa. You know, you get the occasional women trait, arguably slightly more emotional maybe. I mean, in the same way that, oh, actually, hang on there, maybe I'm getting on dangerous ground here.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  But I'm saying it as a positive. I think they express themselves in a female way sometimes and that can sometimes rub men up the wrong way. But in my opinion, it's a positive thing. It's great to see people express themselves fully.

• 38:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, we've been speaking with quite a few CEOs lately for our show from companies like PepsiCo, IndiNoi, and Microsoft, Satya Nadella, and Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg, and quite a few others. And obviously, every person is unique in how they think about their job, how they spend their time. But it strikes me that even the most public-facing of those CEOs is much less public-facing than you. In other words, in many ways, the Virgin brand is really Richard Branson. That, at least, is my assessment. I'd love to hear your assessment and how you see yourself as a representative of your firm.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  I think, you know, if you go back to when I was fifteen, sixteen, I didn't have any money. And I was starting a company without financial resources. And therefore, you know, if you're going to take on British Airways or you're going to take on, you know, the big record companies, I had to use myself to promote what I believed in. And so, you know, I was creating artists or I was creating an airline that I believed in. I didn't have the money to market it. So, you know, so in order to get on the front pages rather than the back pages of the newspapers and get the brand out there, I would, you know, I would do anything I could to get Virgin on the map.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  And even if it meant, you know, jumping in boats or balloons and trying to break, you know, break world records, et cetera. They, I think that worked. And now I think the Virgin brand stands on its own two feet. And, and I'm not needed in the way that I was. You know, we can also afford to take advertising and things. And, and, and, you know, but I can still maybe put a little bit of icing on the cake. And, you know, if we build a spaceship, you know, I'm certainly not letting the chairman of British Airways jump in on the first flight.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  I'm jumping in myself. And so, yeah, so still the two may be intertwined. But I think the Virgin brand is here to stay. And, you know, and hopefully will outlast me. And that was the original plan.

• 40:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  You know, that's what I wanted to ask you next. I'm glad you brought it up because I didn't want it to appear to be a morbid or overly probing question. But what would Virgin look like beyond Richard Branson? And I'm curious if you think about succession.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Well, I'd be irresponsible not to and I'm fortunate. First of all, we're all a company to run by great, wonderful people. We have a chairman and chief executive who run the group on a day-to-day basis. And I've got two wonderful children who do their own thing, but they dive in and out. And I'm very proud of them and proud of the help that they give me and the contributions they make. And they love people. My daughter runs our foundation and does a really good job.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  My son makes documentary films on subjects, all of which actually we see eye to eye on. So drug reform and the death penalty in America, gun reform, and other things like that. And they're really good films. He just did a film about my blooming exploits, which Netflix have just picked up called Don't Look Down. So they're both very capable. And I think it helps for a company like Virgin to have a face.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  And I think they can be the younger faces going forward. But I'm still enjoying myself. So for the next 10 or 20 years, I'm still going to be very much involved, I hope.

• 42:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  I know you're not much of a fan of Donald Trump. There's a bit of history there. But of all the CEOs we've spoken with, it strikes me you have more in common with him as a businessman than anyone else in that you've built a brand whose name alone is so recognizable that it's valuable and that the name can get attached to a multitude of businesses. Do you dislike that parallel as much as I suspect you do? Or maybe you don't even see it as the parallel I suggest it is?

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Um, the, yeah, I mean, obviously, yeah, he's used his own name as his brand. And, you know, and, and obviously, we've, we've, we've used Virgin as our brand. Um, the, um, but, uh, yeah, but there's, there's certainly, there's certainly some truth in what you say. I mean, you know, we, we, um, I mean, before we became president, um, there was a certain kind of building that wanted the Trump, the Trump name on it. Um, and, um, and he did very, he did well out of that in the end. Um, and, um, I'm not sure how successful he was at stretching the brand.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Um, uh, um, but, uh, you know, because, I mean, obviously, he went into the airline business and, and and that, and that failed and, and the number, you know, the casino business, I don't think was great and so on, so.

• 44:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  The golf courses seem to be doing, that seems to be an exception so far, the golf courses, right?

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, the golf, the golf and the, the luxury side of, um, did well. Um, but, um, anyway, uh, I mean, I, do I like the comparison? Um, uh, yeah, he's the president of the United States of America, but, um, but, um, you know, there are, there are aspects about the way, what, what he has to say, um, uh, and about, about people in particular that I, that I, that I find uncomfortable. Um, and, um, you know, I would love him if he could, um, you know, change, you know, change his approach and embrace people back more than, than he has done in the past and is doing.

• 44:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Again, I know, uh, it's obvious that you see yourself as a very different kind of, um, human than him and also as a different kind of communicator and leader and so on. Again, I don't mean to harp on the, the parallel, but one thing I, I will say is true. If I look at the two of you as business people, um, you certainly stray a lot from the beaten path. Uh, you're kind of, um, both in different ways, the very opposite of the modern corporate leader. So I guess what I'm asking is you've both been very, very successful. What I'm asking is, does that success indicate perhaps that too many modern corporate leaders are too timid or risk averse because neither of you are that?

• 45:36Speaker 01

  I've just literally five minutes ago saw Michael Bloomberg. Now, he's somebody that, you know, I have enormous respect for. You know, he's, he's, you know, as a businessman, he's created, you know, you know, he hasn't, hasn't been bankrupt three or four times. You know, he's, he's built, he's built, you know, extraordinary businesses. And, and he's, and he's done it. I mean, you know, he's, he's not your normal corporate type of businessman. And I think, you know, I think there's lots and lots of extremely good business people in America and around the world that fit, that fit into that category. Right.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  Who, who I would have enormous respect for. And most business people, most entrepreneurs I have enormous respect for because I think entrepreneurs are the people who employ, employ people, create most of the new jobs, who, who make the world a better place, who shake, shake, you know, shake up the bigger, more complacent, you know, fat bellied companies and, and who innovate. And, you know, and I think, you know, with, with, without, without, you know, all the, all these wonderful, you know, wonderful, young and old, older thrusting entrepreneurs, you know, the, the world would not move forward.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  And, and so that, you know, there is a big difference, I think, between entrepreneurs and then they're sort of rather staid business leaders of big companies who often are anything but entrepreneurial. But fortunately, there are the young thrusting entrepreneurs that are taking them on and, and, you know, coming up with new innovations. And, and, and these big companies are having to, yeah, having to, to try to find managers who are slightly more entrepreneurial.

• 47:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm curious, so your career, as I understand it, obviously began, you were very young and you created your own path and just kept going and kept having ideas, kept trying, failed, didn't let it bother you and so on. But from the original, the magazine, Student Magazine, which was a culture magazine, to record stores, record label, airlines, trains, mobile phone company, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's not a model. I don't know who you might have looked to as a model for that, because I can't think of people who had done what you had done. I'm just curious, what kind of either mentorship did you have along the

• 48:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  way? Or maybe it wasn't actually mentorship, but just someone that you saw whose ideas and vigor you admired and patterned yourself after a bit? Or was it really Richard Branson, just kind of figuring out Richard Branson along the way?

• 48:37Speaker 01

  It was more the latter. I think, first of all, I never thought of myself as a businessperson or an entrepreneur. I just initially just thought of myself as an editor and wanted to have a magazine to campaign against the Vietnamese war. But in order for the magazine to survive, I had to worry about printing and paper manufacturing and distribution and so on. And I sort of became an entrepreneur in just in order that I could fulfill my dream of being an editor of a magazine. And my education was, you know, being in the

• 49:19Speaker 01

  real world and, you know, learning the art of survival, you know, away from school, away from learning, and just, yeah, just being thrown in the deep end. And in fact, exactly the same way I learned to swim was being, you know, going into a fast-flowing river and having to learn not to drown.

• 49:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's kind of amazing you're still alive, I have to say, of all the things you've done. It's pretty remarkable.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  No, I've been, I am a very, very, very, very lucky man. I tell 75 stories of near-death experiences in my new book.

• 50:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  You must be part cat.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  But there was one man, a man called Sir Freddie Laker, who ran a, he was the sort of pioneer of discount airlines, really.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  And he came to my houseboat one day and he had gone bankrupt. He'd been pushed out of business by British Airways. And he just gave me a couple of bits of advice. He said, yeah, three words you've got to remember, sue the bastards. And he said that British Airways will do everything they can to put you out of business. You've got to take them to court before you go out of business, rather than afterwards. And I took his advice. We took British Airways to court for a dirty tricks campaign they waged against us. We won the largest libel damages in history. And we distributed, it was Christmas time, we distributed to all our staff. And it became known as the British Airways Christmas bonus.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  So we were very popular at that Christmas.

• 51:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Unfortunately, you can't repeat that every year, can you? But, well, maybe you could.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Well, if they want to, we'll.

• 51:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, it's up to them, I guess, yeah. Let me ask you this. You've admitted that Virgin Galactic may not be the best bang for the buck when it comes to maximizing profits. You also admit that the Virgin board has not been thrilled with the endeavor. Why is this so important to you?

• 51:35Speaker 01

  You only live once and there's no space line on Earth. There are millions of people who'd love to become astronauts, who'd love to go to space, me included. And I want to fulfill the dream for myself, for those millions of people, for my children, and build a Virgin Galactic space line that is safe and in time, affordable. And it's taken 12 years to get this far.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  And I think we are, you know, three months or so away from our dream. Um, uh, but space, you know, rocket science is tough and uh, space, space is tough. Um, and we've had uh, tears along the way. Um, we've had many high moments along the way. Um, uh, but um, I think, I think we're, we're, we're almost there. Um, and it's not just putting people into space. It's putting, you know, I mean, like there's four billion people are not connected in the world. Um, you know, Virgin Orbit, which is another Virgin company, will be putting small satellites into space and creating bigger arrays of satellites around the earth.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Um, there's um, uh, there's um, uh, uh, you know, there's point to point air travel, which we, which we'll get involved in at tremendous speeds. Um, uh, I go to Australia a lot. I'd, you know, I'd love to be able to get there in three or four hours rather than in um, eighteen hours. And um, uh, but anyway, I love a challenge. I can't resist a challenge. Um, whether it's um, uh, you know, whether it's, you know, Virgin Hyperloop, which is another exciting thing we've just got involved in, or whether it's, you know, space travel or, or whatever. Um, um, you know, we love to, we love, love to get in there and learn about, learn and, and, and hopefully experience.

• 53:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Mm hmm. Um, once again, you're atypical for the kind of people we've been speaking with for this show lately. Um, you're not the CEO of a firm with a, a big structure reporting up to you. You're the founder and therefore you roam across projects and so on. That said, I'm curious to ask you something I've asked some of these other folks. Um, which is, I hear often that being at the top of a firm, especially if you've ascended from internally, uh, that it's very lonely, that you get there and all of a sudden you don't have any peers. You're alone at the top. I'm curious, um, whether for you, that's the case, whether you get lonely at the top.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  No, I don't get lonely. I think, I mean, I love people. And I think if you really love people and and you see the people who you work with as, you know, brothers and sisters or children, depending on their age.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  And you're a good listener of people and you enjoy the company of people. It's anything but lonely.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  And so, you know, so maybe I'm lucky, I don't know, but I you know, I mean, I suspect, you know, I mean, there are occasions because I'm a recognizable face around the world that you can maybe get just a little bit too many selfies in a day.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Is that why you want to go to space to avoid all that? Well, maybe that's why I live on an island.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  You know, but I mean, I love, I love people, but sometimes it's good to retreat occasionally. They, no, I think, I think, I think, you know, the Virgin company is an unusual company, it's true. We're a sort of way, way of life company, which I don't think really exists in the world. So, you know, we, we, we, you know, we look after you when you're young. We look after you, you know, as you get into your twenties and then, you know, like with health clubs and music, music companies and, and, and games companies. And, you know, then we, you know, we, we maybe move into trains and planes and and, and then spaceship companies and then cruise ship companies. I mean,

• 56:05Speaker 01

  you know, so we, you know, we, you know, banking, insurance, you know, so we're looking after most of, most of your needs. And we have stretched the brand into lots of different areas and most companies, I think, just, you know, like if you, you mentioned people like Facebook or others, you know, they, they'll specialize in one area and they'll do an incredible job. And most likely they're worth an awful lot more as companies than Virgin. But all I can say is we've had a lot more fun, I suspect. You know, we've learned, we've learned, learnt a lot more and it's been, yeah, and, and enjoyed every minute of it.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Thanks so much for the time today. Enjoyed speaking with you. Okay, bye bye. Thanks a lot. Bye.

• 56:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  In next week's special episode, my interview with Carlyle Group founder David Rubenstein.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  You know, money doesn't necessarily make you happy. Some of the saddest people I know are the wealthiest people I know. And some of the poorest people I know are some of the happiest people I know. You know, Thomas Jefferson said, "Life is about the pursuit of happiness." But he didn't tell us how to actually get happiness. And it's the most elusive thing in life, is personal happiness. But, you know, I think I was happy before I was wealthy. So, you know, I don't know that the wealth has made me happier.

• 57:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up on the next regular Freakonomics Radio episode, what happens when a bunch of economists set up an experimental preschool to help underperforming kids? Okay, so now is where the real problem starts.

• 57:32Speaker 03

  It was one of the most difficult things I think we could have tried to do.

• 57:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  And why preschool may already be too late to attack the education gap.

• 57:42Speaker 04

  By the end of the age of three, children born into poverty will have heard 30 million fewer words than their more affluent peers.

• 57:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's next time on Freakonomics Radio. Freakonomics Radio is produced by WNYC Studios and Dubner Productions. Our staff includes Alison Hockenberry, Greg Rosalsky, Stephanie Tam, Max Miller, Merritt Jacob, Vera Carruthers, Harry Huggins, and Brian Gutierrez. The music you hear throughout our episodes was composed by Luis Guerra. You can subscribe to Freakonomics Radio on Apple Podcasts or any number of podcast portals. You should also check out our archive at Freakonomics.com, where you can stream or download every episode we've ever made. You can also read the transcripts and find links to the underlying research. We can be found on Twitter, Facebook, or

• 58:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  via email at [email protected]. Thanks for listening.

• 58:47Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 59:19Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 59:50Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:00:27Speaker 05

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