Freakonomics Radio
Hosted by Stephen J. Dubner
Is junk food an abomination or a modern miracle?
1,772 words · 13 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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From APM, American Public Media and WNYC,
this is Freakonomics Radio on Marketplace. Here's the host of Marketplace, Kai Rizdal.
Time now for a little Freakonomics Radio. It's that moment every couple of weeks. We talk to Stephen Dubner, the co-author of the books and the blog of the same name. It is The Hidden Side of Everything. Dubner, how are you, man?
Kai, I'm great, thank you. Nice to, nice to talk to you. You like riddles, don't you, Kai?
I do.
All right, let me, let me try something out on you then. A listener of ours, a fellow named Ralph Thomas, recently asked us to weigh in on what he calls, quote, "the cheapest, most nutritious and bountiful food that has ever existed in history." He says it's got 390 calories, 23 grams of protein, substantial portions of calcium iron, and it costs only a buck or two. So Kai Rizdal, let me ask you this. What food is Ralph talking about?
It's gotta be like tofu or soy or some kind of thing, right?
God, you're smart.
I know.
But you're wrong, but you're wrong also.
You get it to me all the time, man. What is that?
It's, it's the McDonald's McDouble hamburger.
No, it's not.
Well, this is Ralph's argument. So, and you responded the way a lot of people respond. We actually brought in a bunch of McDouble's here at WNYC for the staff. And this was definitely not a McDonald's crowd. Check this out.
Not nutritious at all. Zero nutrition. I would say from zero to kale. Technically, there are pickles, so I think they're vegetables.
They're not like real pickles, you know what I mean? It's like McDonald's somehow has engineered their own version of the pickle.
They're, you know, a piece of synecdoche for American mass bland synthetic corporatism.
All right, so a couple of things. One, synecdoche, good word. Two, I always did like McDonald's pickles. And number three, come on, that's like the public radio crowd. You heard the ladies, zero to kale? Come on.
That is, that is exactly right. And that's kind of my point. The more I thought about Ralph Thomas's question, again, whether the McDouble is the cheapest, most bountiful, and most nutritious food ever.
Yes.
The more I realized that how you answer that question says a lot about how you see the world. Not only our food system, but also the economics of it, and even social justice.
Whoa, dude, where is this coming from?
Well, we set up a little debate on the McDouble between two people. I'd like to play you some of that. One, one is a health food activist, the other is a sort of scholarly farmer. The activist is Tom Filpot. He's a food columnist for Mother Jones. And he says, sure, the McDouble is cheap, but that's because the price does not factor in all the external costs.
In order to present to us all that $2 burger, you're talking about a vast army of working poor people. And that doesn't even get to the farmer who grew the corn and soy.
Okay, so on the other side is Blake Hurst, who is a corn and soy farmer, and he's the president of the Missouri Farm Bureau. Hurst points out that this vast army of working people are also consumers who benefit from low prices.
It's pretty easy to say everyone ought to get paid more. I'm in favor of that, particularly in my own case. But pay is only good in so much as what it can buy. And what you can buy is a... McDonald's cheeseburger for just a little over a buck in almost 14,000 restaurants. And that is a good thing.
All right, so value judgments aside, that's the cheap part of this equation. What about the bountiful thing you were talking about?
Well, as Blake Hirst points out, 14,000 Mickey D's in the US alone, where you can pop in whenever you need a burger. And this highlights a larger issue that he feels is wildly overlooked.
The biggest unreported story of the last three quarters of a century, this increase in availability of food for the common person.
And, you know, so I'll give him that, right? I mean, that is, generally speaking, a good thing. You can't turn around nowadays without finding food.
Mm-hmm, that's right. In most places, that's absolutely true. According to the Global Food Security Index that The Economist publishes, the United States is number one in the world, meaning food is very bountiful. Now, that comes with its own problems, of course.
All right, but Dubner, listen, if the point of the original question is that if you had a bunch of people to feed cheaply, and you wanted to feed them, you know, at least reasonably well, what would you give them? What's the answer?
Well, here's Tom Philpott's very Mother Jones-y idea.
You can get a pound of brown rice, organic, and a pound of red lentils for about two bucks each. And a serving size, say, a cup of each of those things would be about 75 cents.
Okay, so that's that. And here's how Blake Hirst, the farmer, sees things.
Yeah, but I rest my case. I'm sorry, there is no amount of marketing that is going to make me prefer brown rice and lentils over a McDonald's cheeseburger.
All right, well, so maybe he's got a point. Who won the debate, though, dude?
I'll let your listeners decide. As you see, people have very strong opinions about the stuff, fact-based or otherwise. In my own home, I've got one kid who loves McDonald's and another who will not go anywhere near it. And that's how it kind of goes with these things. So I guess I've got to call Tom Philpott back to get some nice recipes for lentils and rice. I've got to feed my daughter.
Good luck on that one, man. Stephen Dubner, Freakonomics.com is the website. Dubner, we'll talk to you soon.
Thanks for having me, guys.
Hey, podcast listeners. Coming up on the next Freakonomics Radio, we've got a summer reading recommendation that I promise you won't hear anywhere else.
He was taking her to cafes. He was taking her to the airport and then it got to the point where he was taking her to the hotel to go to bed with her. And he even was kind enough to give her some of his ammunition for her gun.
That is from the Encyclopedia of Ethical Failure, published by the US Department of Defense. Yep, government officials behaving badly. That's next time on Freakonomics Radio.
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Page updated September 30, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
