A Better Way to Eat (Rebroadcast)

Takeru Kobayashi revolutionized the sport of competitive eating. What can the rest of us learn from his breakthrough?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 0:46Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:30Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, podcast listeners. I hope you are having, maybe you've already had, a great 4th of July. When you think of Independence Day, what comes to mind? The Declaration of Independence, perhaps, and all those tetchy colonists? Fireworks, maybe? But if you're like me, the first thing that comes to mind: hot dogs. Lots and lots and lots of hot dogs, eaten in a very short time. In the following episode, which originally aired around Independence Day of 2014, you'll learn more than you ever wanted to know about the art and science of high-speed hot dog consumption. I hope you relish the episode.

• 3:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  Kobe, can you just, like, count to 10 in your microphone? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Maggie, do the same, or say anything you want. He just needs to get a level. Just keep talking.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

• 3:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'd like you to meet Takeru Kobayashi, known as Kobe, and his translator, Maggie James. I was asking Kobe about his favorite foods.

• 3:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yogurt and tofu?

• 3:49Speaker 01

  You mean yogurt and tofu?

• 3:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yogurt and tofu. What kind of tofu? Soft one. What's your favorite kind of steak? Ah. Or hamburger? Filet. Filet? You like filet. No fat. You like lean. Lean, I guess. What's your favorite fish? Fish? Salmon, I like, but not salmon. Salmon? You like the skin or no? Yeah. Yeah. What's your favorite fruit? Cherry. Strawberries?

• 4:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  How do you feel about hot dogs?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  During this time, it's actually the time that I don't want to think about hot dogs that much.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  From WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 5:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Takei Rukobayashi doesn't like to think about hot dogs much right now because he's preparing to eat a very large pile of them. Not for pleasure. This is what he does for a living. In the world of competitive eating, as the sport is known, Kobe is the biggest star that has ever been.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 5:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. It began back in Japan. He was a college student at the time, studying economics. A friend signed him up for a televised eating contest.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  I was really shocked because I, at that time, I really didn't think that I could eat that much more than the normal person.

• 5:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  But he gave it a try, largely because of the prize money, $5,000 for first place. It was a four-stage eating contest, starting with boiled potatoes and then a seafood bowl, Mongolian mutton barbecue, finishing up with noodles. Your competitors were also amateurs, right? They weren't professionals?

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. So, did you think you had a chance?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Because why? What did you think that you could do better than the other amateurs? Was it mental, or physical, or strategic?

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Total, I thought I could. Somewhere in between, maybe a mixture. Physical. There were players that were much bigger than I was physically, even in Japan. So, I didn't think that it could be, you know, just a physical thing. It had to be total of mental and physical.

• 6:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Kobe studied earlier contests like this one with qualifying stages. He saw that most people went so hard in the early rounds that even if they did advance, they didn't have the energy or the stomach capacity to finish strong. So he decided to eat just enough at each stage to qualify for the next. And when it came time for the final round, he blasted past the others and he won. Having tasted victory as an amateur competitive eater, Kobe immediately thought about turning pro. Now, the World Cup of Competitive Eating, as you probably know, is held every summer in New York City.

• 7:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  At home in Japan, Kobe began to train for Coney Island. American-style hot dogs were not available where he lived, so he used sausages made of minced fish. No hot dog buns either, so he cut bread down to size. He took his training seriously, very seriously. He began a long series of experiments. For instance, ripping the hot dog and bun in half before eating it, a move that would come to be known as the Solomon Method, after the biblical story of King Solomon who threatened to settle a maternity dispute by slicing a baby in two pieces. The Solomon had been done before or no?

• 8:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 8:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  No. He found another way to speed things up.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Separating the sausage from the bun.

• 8:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yep.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Also eating hot dogs two at a time. I don't mean two sticks of the same, I mean breaking one in half and eating two halves.

• 8:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  The sausage itself being slick and dense actually went down pretty easy. But eating a hot dog bun on its own without the meat, it's harder than you'd think. How hard? You may have heard of the Saltine Challenge? Well, next time you want to win a bar bet, try the hot dog bun challenge. See if you can get somebody to try to eat two hot dog buns in one minute with no beverage. Here, listen to our Freakonomics Radio production team try it. This is David Herman doing the eating with Greta Cohn, Susie Lehtenberg, and Greg Rosalsky providing commentary.

• 9:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, I'm ready.

• 9:06Speaker 03

  And go.

• 9:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh yeah, I guess so.

• 9:11Speaker 04

  So he's got half of a half of a bun in his mouth.

• 9:14Speaker 03

  35 seconds to go.

• 9:17Speaker 05

  Swallow it.

• 9:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm so confident.

• 9:22Speaker 03

  4, 3, 2, 1, and it's over.

• 9:26Speaker 04

  Put down the bun.

• 9:27Speaker 05

  Not even one.

• 9:27Speaker 03

  I feel like, yeah, not even one.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 9:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  I am ashamed.

• 9:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  So to fight the dry bun problem, Kobe came up with a novel solution. Dunking with honey.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Dunking?

• 9:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's right, dunking. As he fed himself the bunless, broken hot dogs with one hand, he used the other hand to dunk the bun in water. Then he'd squeeze out the excess water and smush the bun into his mouth, kind of like a bun ball. Not only did this make eating faster, but now he didn't have to take time out between dogs to drink water. So breaking, separating, dunking. What about the shake? Shakeもやるね。 Shakeもやるやる。

• 10:09Speaker 01

  でもその前にはやった見たことなかったですか？

• 10:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  ないね。俺はないね。

• 10:13Speaker 01

  I had never seen that before. I think that was my thing.

• 10:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  何かやってたかもしれないけど。

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Maybe somebody was shaking, but I didn't. I had never seen that.

• 10:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  This became known as the Kobayashi Shake.

• 10:23Speaker 06

  Successfully. Kobayashi now, look at him shaking, almost like Axl Rose on the stage of the Garden. You see the wiggle get there for Kobayashi? Just kind of moving it around like someone put an ice cube down your back. Look at that Kobayashi shake. Chugging those hot dogs like a freshman at a keg party. It's unbelievable.

• 10:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Kobe videotaped his training sessions. He charted all his data, analyzed it. He wanted to find out what worked, and just as important, what didn't work. At one point, he thought he should chew each dog very vigorously. But he realized this not only took too long, but it was also bad for his jaw. He was tireless in his experimentation. Why do you think others before you hadn't experimented so much? 本気じゃないってのが一番あるんじゃないかな。

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Maybe because they're not as serious as I am.

• 11:12Speaker 07

  本当のことを言うとね。

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Maybe that's the only honest answer.

• 11:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  How did you get so serious?

• 11:17Speaker 07

  なんかね、自分でやっててスポーツだなと思って、これで世界一になりたいなってすごく本気で思ったね。

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Simply that, when I tried it, I thought the physical action felt like this is a sport.

• 11:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  A sport, and nobody had treated it like a sport before.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  And I simply wanted to be number one in the world at this.

• 11:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  No offense, but you sound crazy. You sound nuts.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  ごめんなさいけど、これ初めて聞いた人、あなたはこれ nuts だと思うからね。

• 11:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  And I say that with all due respect, because you know how much I love you and respect what you've done. But what I mean by this is you were bringing a level of scientific inquiry to an activity that nobody had bothered before. That's what I mean by nuts. So did you think it was nuts, or did it make perfect sense to you?

• 12:04Speaker 07

  なんか今そうやって言われて、ちょっと。

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Now, I guess I'm a little older and more mature now, because now I can hear that and actually say like, oh, and laugh with you. But at that time, there was definitely not even a speck of me that would have thought that that was nonsense. Just made sense.

• 12:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up on Freakonomics Radio, how does Kobe do at the Coney Island Hot Dog Contest?

• 12:37Speaker 08

  The kid is incredible. A total beating of the Americans. He was like a conveyor belt. He was just putting them in two at a time.

• 12:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  And assuming that you are not interested in following Kobe's footsteps specifically, is there something more general that can be learned from his mastery of competitive eating?

• 12:57Speaker 01

  I think the thing about human beings is that they make a limit in their mind of what their potential is. And they decide that, well, I've been told this, or this is what society tells me, or this is what. Or they've just been made to believe something.

• 13:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  And one more thing, if you don't already subscribe to Freakonomics Radio, I think you should. It's free. Sign up at iTunes and you will get the next episode in your sleep.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  From WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 13:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Today, we are telling the story of Takehiko Kobayashi, who dreamed a dream of eating more hot dogs than any human being in history. This happens every 4th of July at Coney Island in New York City.

• 14:01Speaker 09

  Nathan's annual hot dog eating contest is an international event. Champions from all over the world converging on Coney Island.

• 14:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  The Coney Island contest has been going on for roughly four decades. The world record, 25 1/8 hot dogs and buns in 12 minutes. Okay, 25 1/8 hot dogs and buns in 12 minutes. Just picture that for a minute. Now, there aren't many rules. The competitors can have as much of whatever beverage they want. They can put condiments on the dogs, but no self-respecting eater is going to waste time or stomach capacity on ketchup. All the dogs and buns that enter your body must, well, they have to stay in your body. If not, this is known in the sport as a reversal of fortune, you can be disqualified.

• 14:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, so it is July 4th, 2001. Kobe is 23 years old. He's only 5'8", 130 pounds. So when you showed up that first time to compete, did you feel that you belonged on the stage with the other competitors? Did you feel you could, you were justified to be there?

• 15:15Speaker 01

  I actually didn't think even about that.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  I wasn't thinking about that at all, but I was full of the feeling of, I've come here to win.

• 15:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  So the bell rings.

• 15:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  And you start to eat. And for 12 minutes, you eat, and you break, and you separate, and you slurp, and you dunk, and you smush, and you swallow, and you shake, and you do all that. And then the bell rings, and then you see your number? Yes, is that, did you, were you paying attention to your number before that? Or did you only see your number at the very end?

• 15:55Speaker 01

  I only saw it at the end. I wasn't looking at all the number.

• 15:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what was the number? Fifty.

• 16:02Speaker 09

  The Americans just dropped their dogs in awe. The clear-cut wiener Kobayashi, who inhaled 50 hot dogs in 12 minutes, shattering the world record.

• 16:12Speaker 08

  Kid is incredible. Total beating of the Americans. He was like a conveyor belt. He was just putting them in two at a time. I saw he was around 30 when I was at around 8. I took my shirt off, started waving the white flag. I can't believe it, the new record, 50.

• 16:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Fifty, and the previous record was 25 and 1/8, right? Yes. So you doubled the world record. So nobody doubles any world record ever. And what did you think then? What did you think when you saw that number of 50?

• 16:47Speaker 01

  I was actually shocked. I was not imagining at all that I would eat double. So it was super surprising to me.

• 16:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Everyone was surprised. And some people were skeptical. They wondered if Kobe was playing by the rules.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  They said that they took me to outer space and that some aliens had given the man two stomachs. Oh, he's taking muscle relaxers.

• 17:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  That you were doping, yeah. Did you take muscle relaxers? No. Do you have two stomachs? No.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  He thought about it.

• 17:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  He won Coney Island six straight years and a lot of other eating contests, too.

• 17:35Speaker 10

  106 taco platters!

• 17:41Speaker 10

  337 wings. The new record for the most grilled cheese sandwiches in one minute is 13! Who took down an entire 12-inch pizza in one minute flat! Let's make some noise for the one and only, the culinary Houdini, the best eater on earth, Mr. Taikaro Kobayashi!

• 18:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Kobe was not, however, unbeatable. Tell me about the bear.

• 18:12Speaker 11

  And now introducing to my right, his opponent, The Beast. He descends from Kodiak Island, Alaska.

• 18:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Kobe tried to beat the bear in a contest that was taped for Fox TV.

• 18:25Speaker 11

  This beast stands over eight feet tall and weighs in tonight at 1,089 pounds. He can digest over 60 pounds of food in a 24-hour period. He possesses the ultimate appetite for destruction. Meet The Beast, the Alaskan Cruncher.

• 18:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Even against a bear, Kobe thought he'd win.

• 18:53Speaker 12

  Now again, the contest begins as soon as the bear eats the first hot dog. And it is underway. There we go, there we go. Kobayashi is the greatest.

• 19:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  And in this case, the dogs had no buns, right? Why was that? Was the buns bad for the bear?

• 19:10Speaker 01

  I was told that the bear does not eat buns.

• 19:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wow, tough for the bear.

• 19:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, so you're told, so the bear had a better lawyer than you had, apparently. Okay, so was there a rehearsal?

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yes, there was a rehearsal.

• 19:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what happened at the rehearsal?

• 19:28Speaker 01

  I wanted the rehearsal.

• 19:29Speaker 13

  When the bear came out, I saw a flash of fear for a second in Kobayashi's eyes.

• 19:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  And then in the contest itself, what happened?

• 19:44Speaker 01

  When the real time came for it, the bear was really quick, like very fast.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  I was so shocked.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  I suddenly kind of almost panicked a little bit.

• 19:58Speaker 12

  I don't see how he can beat this bear. And that is it. We have a winner. The bear, The Beast, has won. The Alaskan Cruncher is our new champion.

• 20:10Speaker 11

  Yes.

• 20:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  And the bear beat you. The bear won. Did you ever figure out how the bear did so well in the competition versus the practice?

• 20:23Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's of course, it's something you have to hear. The keeper didn't feed it for a while.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  Of course, that was the first question that I thought I had to know. So I asked and I was told that the bear keeper had not given him anything to eat for like a day.

• 20:42Speaker 07

  They were very hungry.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  So they had actually kind of made the bear very hungry and when it came in, it was starving.

• 20:49Speaker 07

  It's a animal, so they're hungry or they're up tight to eat.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  My competitor was a wild beast and when animals, when they're hungry, they are different living things.

• 21:01Speaker 07

  I'm not a strong eater because I'm hungry, whereas I was competing against a beast that was very hungry.

• 21:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  How do you handle defeat?

• 21:30Speaker 07

  I always change my mentality very quickly.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Simply said, sometimes you win because someone's having a bad day and sometimes somebody beats you because you're having a bad day. Even winning or losing doesn't necessarily even mean really that you're the best. So when you look at the long run, you can't think about you and competing against a rival or rivals. That doesn't even really tell you 100% that you're the best. What you can only do is compare yourself to yourself and try to see how far you can actually go.

• 22:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  So what did Kobayashi do that was different than everyone before him? Here's one thing. He redefined the problem that he was trying to solve.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  The key to me was that I had to change the mentality that it was a sport. It wasn't having a meal. It was, to me, I had to think, this is a sport. It has nothing to do with how you normally enjoy a meal. It's just a physical action.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  My honest opinion was that people were just eating as an extension of regular eating meals. And it looked like they were all rushing to try to eat more than they normally could. Just one more hot dog, just a little more. And I thought, well, if you just look at it as a way of trying to put something in instead of how much more can I eat than normal, then it really just takes a few questions and a little research on my part and experimentation to see how far I could actually go.

• 23:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Here's what the other competitive eaters were asking themselves. How can I fit more hot dogs in my stomach? Kubi asked a different question. Only slightly different, perhaps, at least to a layperson. But it changed everything. His question was, how can I make one hot dog easier to eat? But it wasn't just that. If everyone before him was asking the wrong question, he thought, then maybe he shouldn't give much credence to the existing world record. Maybe it was an artificial barrier that he should just bust right through.

• 23:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  This contest had been going on for over 40 years. Why is it that it took until you to change the mental and strategic approach to this sport?

• 24:09Speaker 01

  I think people have to have a reason to rethink what could be wrong. If a whole 40 something years or more, if people only see someone eating 25 as the limit, then someone who can eat 20 might think, wow, if I just eat five more, I could actually do that. And no one would ever think that anything else could be done. But if you see someone suddenly come and eat 50, then everyone knows that there must be a different approach to the problem. And until something like that happens, people don't question.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Maybe I was the reason, maybe I gave them a reason for everyone at the same moment to rethink the problem again.

• 24:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  So I'm curious if you could look around the world at whether it's something having to do with money, or government, or education. Can you point to something where if people could only rethink the problem, redefine the problem like you did, and not accept the limit of the old world record like you did? Can you think of an instance where it might not be so hard to do that? Where we'd all be better off if people could do that?

• 25:25Speaker 01

  I think it should be used for everything. I think the thing about human beings is that they make a limit in their mind of what their potential is, and they decide that, well, I've been told this, or this is what society tells me, or this is what. Or they've just been made to believe something. So if every human being actually threw away those thoughts, and they actually did use that method of thinking to everything, the potential of human beings, I think, is really great. I think it's huge compared to what they actually think of themselves. So that is a factor that should be... I mean, if everyone could use it for everything, then everything could be much better.

• 26:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  There is a good bit of evidence that Kobe is right about how artificial barriers can hold us back. He no longer laps the field in competitive eating contests. In fact, Kobe was beaten for several years at Coney Island by an eater named Joey Chestnut, who is still the reigning champion. And the guys who used to eat just 15 or 20 hot dogs now routinely eat 30 and 40. Some of them use Kobe's methods. All of them benefit from knowing that the old limits weren't real.

• 26:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  As for Kobe himself, he lives in New York now, but still travels the world eating for a living. But you won't find him in Coney Island on July 4th anymore. A while back, he got into a contract dispute with the organizers. So for the past few years, he has held his own hot dog eating contests in parallel with the Coney Island one. These days, the contest runs only 10 minutes, but the numbers are even higher.

• 27:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  How many do you think you'll eat this year?

• 27:20Speaker 07

  More than 72.

• 27:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  More than 72. So more than six dozen hot dogs and buns in 10 minutes on 4th of July. What will you do then on the 5th of July?

• 27:34Speaker 07

  I think I'll just rest.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Just resting. I think just resting.

• 27:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  How long does it take to recover?

• 27:42Speaker 07

  I don't know how I feel.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  It depends on how I feel, but...

• 27:47Speaker 07

  I think I'll rest for at least half a day.

• 27:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, that's it? You must be a great athlete because most of us, if we eat even three hot dogs, we need to rest for a whole day. So not only are you better on the front end, you're better on the back end, too.

• 28:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, podcast listeners. Next week on Freakonomics Radio, a brand new episode, the first of a two-parter on an activity that we spend a lot of time on, but which economists have generally ignored. Now, what could that be?

• 28:29Speaker 14

  Sleep.

• 28:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Sleep?

• 28:30Speaker 14

  Sleep.

• 28:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Sleep.

• 28:31Speaker 14

  One area that's been overlooked is sleep.

• 28:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  And to take just one question about sleep, who do you think gets more of it? High-income people or low-income? Even that is not a simple question to answer.

• 28:47Speaker 15

  We found that people with more education got more sleep and people with higher incomes got more sleep.

• 28:55Speaker 16

  The answer is very, very clear. Those who earn more money per hour, those who have more education, they sleep less.

• 29:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  And could lack of sleep be linked to a phenomenon that epidemiologists have wondered about for years?

• 29:11Speaker 17

  In almost every category of health and disease, African Americans lag behind whites, which is a very disturbing fact.

• 29:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  The economics of sleep, that's next time on Freakonomics Radio.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by WNYC and Dubner Productions. Our staff includes Greg Rosalsky, Caroline English, Susie Lechtenberg, Merritt Jacob, and Christopher Wirth. This episode was produced by Greta Cohn and mixed by David Herman. If you want more Freakonomics Radio, you can subscribe to our podcast on iTunes or go to Freakonomics.com, where you'll find lots of radio, a blog, the books, and more.

• 30:21Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 30:54Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 31:24Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 31:55Speaker 18

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