7. Two Book Authors and a Microphone

The next chapter in the adventures of Dubner and Levitt has begun. Listen to a preview of what's to come for the fall season of Freakonomics Radio.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. There's no hiding how convenient Southern New Hampshire University makes college. They offer over 80 career-focused graduate programs online. Classes have no set meeting times, so you can balance life and learning, and online tuition rates are some of the lowest in the country, making it all a little more manageable. A school this willing to work with you is worth the investment. Visit SNHU.edu/freakonomics to learn more. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds, because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on the things you love, like those iced lattes that help you get ready

• 0:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  to face the day. So, switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company, affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Mint Mobile. With Mint Mobile's summer sale, all of Mint's plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. Free yourself from big wireless and switch to Mint for high-speed data and coverage on the T-Mobile 5G network. To get your new wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com/freak. That's mintmobile.com/freak.

• 1:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Upfront payment, $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50GB may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20GB hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 1:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work is a new way to work in ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work can pull info from across your apps and connect to your tools to help you create finished work. You can even automate work in ChatGPT with the Scheduled Tasks feature, and the whole time, you stay in control. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  You have the present, you have the past. The past has its past, okay? The present has its future, the past has its future, namely, the present. They learn that we had a past, a past past, a past future. They learn the relationship between them, but they don't extrapolate the relationship between today's past and today's future.

• 2:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right. Raise your hand if you followed what Nassim Nicholas Taleb just said.

• 2:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, me too. But I do know this: For Freakonomics Radio, the future is now.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  From WNYC and American Public Media, this is Freakonomics Radio, a new podcast about the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 3:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  In the beginning, it was just me, a microphone, and my Freakonomics friend and co-author Steve Levitt. We started a podcast, threw it up on iTunes. We didn't think anybody actually listened to it, but they did. They even wrote reviews. Last week, Levitt and I, we made the mistake of reading them.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  This is one of the good ones. If you're going to start a new podcast, B. Brian 632 says, please at least have some episodes lined up. The podcast has potential. That's what I mean by this one of the good ones. However, 20 days between shows is a really poor start. Come on, guys. If you're serious, then do it. Hypoluxa writes, this is the top podcast on iTunes? I was incredibly disappointed. I don't know what podcasts the other reviewers were listening to, but this was terrible. Talk about beating a dead horse. Ugh.

• 4:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Could have been worse.

• 4:19Speaker 03

  I like this one here. More of Levitt, less of Dubner.

• 4:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm afraid you're getting more Dubner, whether you like it or not. Here's how it works. For now, we'll put out a new podcast every two weeks. In January, we'll go weekly. You can get it at iTunes, at our new website, FreakonomicsRadio.com, and wherever fine podcasts are sold.

• 4:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  But wait, there's more. Yeah, every couple of weeks, we'll bring a Freakonomics story to Marketplace, the afternoon business show on your local public radio station. You know, hosted by that guy with a strange name.

• 5:07Speaker 03

  What is that?

• 5:09Speaker 04

  So the really interesting thing is that I can't even tell you the number of times we have gotten listener mail with people saying either Kai, Guy, Kay. They don't like how I pronounce my own name. They don't know how to spell it. It's Norwegian people. My dad was born in Bergen. Kai, K-A-I, R-Y-S-S-D-A-L. No middle name, thank you very much. Just Kai Rysdal.

• 5:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  So it's just a straight Norwegian name? No hybrid? No, it is what? If you were living in Norway, nobody'd raise a brow?

• 5:38Speaker 04

  Nobody would, except for this. Usually, over there, sometimes it's spelled with a K-A-J, because they got the ya-ya thing going with the Js over there, but it's Scandinavian, as far as it goes.

• 5:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  And if I ever have a hard time remembering your pronouncing, is it okay if I just call you Kevin or something? Is that all right with you?

• 5:53Speaker 04

  Listen, Dubner, whatever you want.

• 6:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Once I learn the ropes, we'll start making some hour-long shows. You'll hear them on public radio stations, too, as long as the public radio officials we bribe keep their word. And then, we're going on the road. Live events with more surprises than you can imagine. In other words, we really have no idea yet what we're gonna do. But whatever form Freakonomics Radio takes, we'll bring you the stories that everyone else on the radio has the good sense to avoid. For instance, the economics of trash. Here's a guy named Jonathan Forma, a grad student from Michigan, just moved to Taiwan.

• 6:35Speaker 05

  Well, I can tell you that when I arrived here in the dormitory, I was given a list of rules. And one of them was, when you hear the trash truck come, take your trash out the door.

• 6:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  When you hear the trash truck come, bring your trash out the door. So it comes around like an ice cream truck or something?

• 6:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. You know, this is one of the funny things. It actually plays Beethoven music.

• 6:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, that's nice.

• 6:56Speaker 05

  Blares it, in fact. And so when you hear it coming, your first thought is, the ice cream truck is coming. But in fact, it is, you know, smelly garbage that is coming down your street.

• 7:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  But basically, you're hearing, you're in your room, you're working, or you're getting ready for going to school or whatever, and then you hear dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. And you think, trash. I gotta get my trash. Is that the way it works?

• 7:18Speaker 05

  That is exactly the way it works.

• 7:28Speaker 05

  For the first 10 days, I didn't hear it one time. I was told it comes roughly, in our area, it comes in the afternoon and the evening. Supposedly. Supposedly. Although, for the first 10 days, I was literally out every single day. I mean, I'd just arrived in a new city. I wanted to travel around a little bit. And so, you know, the result of all of that was about 10 days' worth of trash in my room.

• 7:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  10 days' worth of trash in your room because you were not home when the trash truck came, right?

• 7:56Speaker 05

  Exactly. I couldn't bring myself to tell my friends, no, I won't go out to eat with you because I'm waiting for the trash truck. I couldn't do it.

• 8:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  What do the locals think about this trash collection system where you have to wait to hear the trash truck come and bring your trash out to it?

• 8:10Speaker 05

  You know, I asked a couple of my friends about this, and they said that they think it's like people like going out and talking to each other while they're waiting for the trash truck. I've seen this where there'll be people, you know, 20, 25 people gathering on a corner, and when the trash truck coming in the distance.

• 8:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh.

• 8:28Speaker 05

  And I've also heard that guys sometimes go there and try to find pretty girls.

• 8:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, so you're giving trash a whole new spin here. You're talking trash as like a babe magnet and trash as a community builder, right?

• 8:42Speaker 05

  You know, if you talk with your neighbors a lot, I suspect it's just as easy that you could get into an argument as it is to, you know, have delightful chatter. But they say that they like it. And you dress in nice clothes sometimes, you go out there, you talk to your neighbors, you put your trash in together. It does sound nice.

• 8:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  But what you're describing is it's like, you know, I'm living in this neighborhood in Taipei in a residential area, and I'm a young, single guy, and it's like, hey, it's trash time. I'm gonna put on my best shirt and try to go meet a girl, right? That's what you're talking about?

• 9:15Speaker 05

  I haven't been reduced yet to going to the trash truck to find girls, but maybe one day.

• 9:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Maybe one day. You'll hear about trash and some slightly less trashy things, too, slightly, like the upcoming elections. We'll take a look at the myths of campaign spending in November's past, present, and future. Here's a voice you might recognize.

• 9:44Speaker 06

  We thought we were gonna raise $100 million. So we built a campaign for $100 million. But we were spending the money as if we were a $100 million campaign before we raised $100 million. So even though we raised $57 million, which was a huge amount of money, we were out of money. And what we should have anticipated better was that we're not gonna raise the $100 million. So campaign spending doesn't mean anything because you can spend it incorrectly. I have lost an election by spending it wrong, that one. I won an election, my first election that I won, I won when I was outspent $16 million to $2 million in a Republican primary, and I could have probably not spent any money and won. And we won like 70-30.

• 10:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yep, that's Rudy Giuliani, former New York City mayor, who ran for president once, might even do it again. He, of course, ran as a crime stopper. And he did it without the benefit of a vuvuzela. Here's Mampela Rampele, a longtime civil rights activist in South Africa, who, like a lot of people there, was worried the recent World Cup would bring a spike in crime. It didn't happen.

• 10:56Speaker 07

  I think it is true that the level of crime came down, and those who did commit crimes were quickly nabbed. So crime didn't pay during the World Cup. But importantly, the source of crime, in my view, is that age group, full of energy. And many of them full of testosterone, if I may say so. They were busy, blowing their vuvuzelas, running around, going to fan parks. That's something to do. South Africa has neglected providing sporting facilities. Many poor communities don't have a soccer pitch. They don't have a basketball pitch. They don't have simple places where children can go and be children.

• 11:37Speaker 07

  And that's really a big takeaway we should remember from the World Cup.

• 11:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Take a listen to another voice you'll be hearing this fall. This one's harder to recognize than Giuliani's, but if you've been following the news lately, you can maybe figure it out.

• 11:51Speaker 08

  Well, we're fundamentally trying to change the business we're in. And we're trying to drive innovation rather than being this compliance-driven bureaucracy. And the idea of crowdsourcing that you're seeing in other industries, we think is absolutely applicable here. And frankly, I think there are very significant lessons for how government can work going forward. If we're serious about challenging the status quo, if we're serious about getting dramatically better, we can't just keep doing the same thing. And I think this idea of rewarding excellence and helping states learn from each other, but challenging them to go to a different level, I think there are very significant lessons beyond the Department of Education.

• 12:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  The Department of Education was your big clue. That's Arnie Duncan, who used to run the Chicago Public Schools, and now runs all of them. We'll talk to him about the Race to the Top program that has different states competing against one another to come up with the best school reforms. That show will plainly be educational, so educational, in fact, that Duncan gave us our first official endorsement.

• 12:52Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Arnie Duncan, Secretary of Education in the United States, and you're listening to Freakonomics Radio.

• 12:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  Education, crime, campaign spending, trash. That's what you're in for with Freakonomics Radio. Even a little bit of practical philosophy. Thanks to our friend Nassim Taleb, author of The Black Swan and Fooled by Randomness.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Skepticism is something you should handle with care. There is a sin line between pure gullibility, and I was a tar sucker, and pure skepticism, you can get out of bed. And you have to figure out to navigate it. And I'm spending 100% of my time, okay, working out the map of where you should be skeptical, or you should be, or you could be a sucker, not a sucker.

• 13:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Remember these words. Freakonomics Radio, helping skeptics get out of bed since February 2010. Thanks for listening.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  Freakonomics Radio is a new part of Marketplace, a podcast, a public radio special, and more. It's a new co-production of WNYC, American Public Media, and Dubner Productions. Learn more and listen more online at FreakonomicsRadio.com.

• 14:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by EverPure. Is the value of AI not living up to the promise? The problem is probably your data, not your AI models. When it's scattered across different systems, getting your data AI-ready is a challenge. You keep your AI waiting, and everything slows down. EverPure unifies your data, so you can see it, understand it, and control it all from one simple place, and get it AI-ready fast. Unlock the true value of your AI at EverPureData.com.

• 14:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Ozempic. Innovation happens through rethinking what's possible, and when it comes to GLP-1s, Ozempic pill does just that. Learn more about Ozempic semaglutide tablets, 4 in 9mg, by calling 1-833-OZEMPIC, or visit Ozempic.com to view the medication guide, and ask your doctor what's possible with FDA-approved Ozempic pill.

• 15:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by US Bank Smartly Checking and Savings. You know, US Bank Smartly Checking and Savings are bank accounts that work harder for you. You get better savings rates, fee waivers, and rewards from day one, so you spend less time worrying about money and more on what matters. Sign up for US Bank Smartly Checking and Savings today at usbank.com/smartly. Member FDIC. Copyright 2026 US Bank.

• 15:37Speaker 09

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