43. The Decline and Fall of Violence

The world is a more peaceful place today that at any time in history -- by a long, long shot.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 0:43Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:25Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:11Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:48Speaker 01

  From APM, American Public Media and WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio on Marketplace. Here's the host of Marketplace, Kai Rizdal.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  It's time once again for a little bit of Freakonomics Radio. Every couple of weeks, we talk to Stephen Dubner, the co-author of the books and the blog of the same name. This time, though, a special treat, the other co-author, Stephen Levitt. Gentlemen, welcome to the broadcast.

• 3:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, Kai.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  Great to be here.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  So Dubner, you are not in New York. You have gone to the city of big shoulders, Chicago, with your comrade there, Mr. Dubner.

• 3:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, I've come out to Chicago to try to persuade Levitt to run for president, because I thought it'd be fun.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  We have a guy from Chicago already, you know.

• 3:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  I know, but you know, we've talked before on this show about how the president of the United States doesn't really matter that much. So I figure even if Levitt stinks, it wouldn't be any great loss. And unlike most economists, he'll admit that the president can't control or even predict the economy very well. But there are some useful things he actually does know about. For instance, what causes crime to rise and fall?

• 3:47Speaker 02

  All right, Levitt, do tell. What do you know? What do you know about crime?

• 3:49Speaker 03

  Well, let me start by saying I absolutely categorically am not running for president.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  I don't think you have to worry about it.

• 3:55Speaker 03

  If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve. When it comes to crime, one thing that I think I know that many people seem not to know is that Crime is going down, way down. And while many people are haunted by the thought that crime is high and rising, it categorically is not doing that.

• 4:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, I mean, contrary to popular belief, the world is a more peaceful place today than literally at any time in history by a long, long shot.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  I'm gonna need something better than "long, long shot." Quantify for me, Doug.

• 4:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right. So the Harvard psychology professor Stephen Pinker has just published a new book called The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined. And he argues that our rosy view of history is pretty much entirely wrong.

• 4:37Speaker 04

  In tribal societies, hunter-gatherers and hunter-quarter culturalists, an average of about 15% of people met their ends through violence. In the 20th century, if you try to come up with the highest estimate you can, combining all the wars, all the genocides, all the man-made famines, you get to about 3%.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  So that's 3% of non-natural, right? I mean, people who met their deaths by other means, right?

• 5:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, violent, and he's including their, you know, man-made famines, famines caused by civil war or whatnot. And keep in mind also, in the 20th century, we had mechanized weapons, so killing becomes easier. That early violence was carried out in much more rudimentary ways. Here's Pinker again, talking about 16th and 17th century England.

• 5:21Speaker 04

  Samuel Peeps in his diary talks about going to the town square and watching a general being drawn and quartered. And in the next sentence, he talks about going to a pub and having some oysters. It was such a routine part of his day. In the era of Henry VIII, I think 10 people were executed a week.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Ouch. So Levitt, what's the trend, though? I mean, America in 20th, 21st century, how are we doing?

• 5:45Speaker 03

  Well, we've been doing pretty well lately. There was a very, you know, auspicious trend from the 60s to roughly 1990 with crime going up and up and up. But over the last two decades, crime in the US has fallen in half.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  How come?

• 5:58Speaker 03

  Well, I think there are really three factors that explain most of it. And the first is just we've dramatically increased the prison population. There are now 3 million people behind bars in the United States, up from maybe 500,000. We've hired a lot of police as well. That's another factor that matters. And a third factor people think a lot about, and that seems to be important, is the rise and fall of the crack cocaine markets and the violent associated with it. That the rise in the late 80s led to a lot of increase in crime, and then the decline with the falling apart of those markets. And I have my own pet theory, and not that many people agree with me, but I do think the data support it. Which is that the legalization of abortion in the 1970s led many of the people most at risk for crime never to have been born. And so when they would have grown up 20 years

• 6:43Speaker 03

  later, they just weren't here to do the crimes.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  All right, but Dubner, make the connection for me between a lousy economy and crime, because you'd think it would go up.

• 6:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  You would think. And even though the evidence argues against it over and over again, smart people still think that it will. So crime actually fell during the Great Depression, when the economy was in the toilet. Now, that was in part because prohibition had ended. Crime spiked during the 1960s, when the economy was booming. And in this most recent recession, despite a lot of predictions to the contrary, violent crime has continued to fall, against, really, you know, all the smart money bet against it.

• 7:16Speaker 03

  If there's one bet you know you will win, it is a bet that the next time that crime falls, when the economy is bad, the headline of the New York Times article that talks about crime falling will say, "In spite of everyone's prediction, because of the poor economy, that crime would rise." Crime has fallen. You can see the same sentence written 14 times by the New York Times.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Levitt, let me ask you this question, though, because if you go out there and ask people today, ask 10 people on the corner of the street outside my studio here in Los Angeles today, they will probably say that year over year, crime is getting worse. And yet, your data shows it's not. What's that about?

• 7:50Speaker 03

  I think people in general are terrible at assessing risks, that we very naturally overestimate dramatic things. So come to death, as an example. Things like airplane crashes or terrorist attacks are very vivid and attract a lot of attention, whereas we systematically understate the likelihood of dying from those kinds of deaths, which are slow and silent and involve wasting away. Those don't make the headlines. And so we don't really think of the risk associated with, say, eating way too many cheeseburgers the same way we do with being shot out of the sky by missiles hitting airplanes.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  FreakonomicsRadio.com is the website. Stephen Dubner, Stephen Levitt. Thanks you guys.

• 8:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Talk to you soon, Guy.

• 8:41Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 9:24Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 10:08Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 10:22Speaker 05

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