401. How Many Prince Charleses Can There Be in One Room?

In a special holiday episode, Stephen Dubner and Angela Duckworth take turns asking each other questions about charisma, wealth vs. intellect, and (of course) grit.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. The best investments are the ones you make in yourself, and no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. With more than 200 online degree programs, no set class times, and low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University is built to fit your life today and set you up for success tomorrow. Education is an investment. Why not make it a smart one? Apply for free at SNHU.edu/freakonomics. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing

• 0:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example? Well, PNC Bank did, since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely-not-yolo type. PNC Bank: brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank: National Association, Member FDIC. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Mint Mobile.

• 1:23Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:11Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:55Speaker 01

  From Stitcher and Dubner Productions, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 3:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey there, podcast listeners, and happy holidays. This time of year, we would usually put out a repeat, but instead, we've got something new for you and something different. This grew out of a friendship with Angela Duckworth, a psychology professor at the University of Pennsylvania. I first interviewed her a few years ago about the book she had just written called Grit.

• 3:32Angela Duckworth?

  I define grit as passion and perseverance for especially long-term goals.

• 3:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  She is also founder and CEO of The Character Lab, which tries to harness the science of grit or character development to help young people thrive in school and beyond. Then she launched another, even more ambitious, project called Behavior Change for Good, and we talked about that on the show as well.

• 3:58Angela Duckworth?

  The problem with human beings is that they're human beings and that they repeatedly make decisions that undermine their own long-term well-being.

• 4:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Duckworth was always so interesting and fun that we had her join us as a co-host for a bunch of live shows.

• 4:13Angela Duckworth?

  So is it true, then, that picky eaters and hypochondriacs are more likely to be politically conservative?

• 4:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  One thing Angela does really well is ask interesting questions, and I admire that trait, since that's what we try to do every week on this show. So I thought it might be fun to just sit down with her for a conversation armed with nothing more than a question to ask each other. This happens to be one of my favorite hobbies, a mutual question-asking society. You never know where a conversation like this will go. More often than not, it leads to more questions, like Russian nesting dolls. And that is what you are about to hear, a little matroshka of a conversation. We had so much fun making this episode that we are thinking about spinning this idea off into its own

• 5:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  podcast, separate from Freakonomics Radio. You think that's a good idea? After you've listened, write to [email protected] and let us know what you think. All feedback welcome, whether you like it, hate it, or feel profound indifference. And thanks so much for all your interest and attention over this past year. Every month, nearly 4 million people around the world listen to at least one episode of our show. I'm glad you're one of them. Okay, on to this special episode of Freakonomics Radio. Happy holidays.

• 5:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Angela Duckworth, question for you.

• 5:43Angela Duckworth?

  All right, I'm ready.

• 5:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's say that you personally are granted one genie wish, but it's multiple choice. You get to be in the top 1% globally in either grit, or wealth, or intellect.

• 6:00Angela Duckworth?

  Hmm.

• 6:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Grit, wealth, intellect. And now, this is, let's say this is, you are who you are, but not really. In other words-

• 6:07Angela Duckworth?

  I was just gonna ask, like, you know, are we talking about then you're gonna be like in the bottom 1% of the other ones?

• 6:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  No, no, no, it's not that, and it's also-

• 6:13Angela Duckworth?

  I just get to, like, upgrade. In one dimension.

• 6:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, let's say that. Well, no, that's tricky because you may already be, you may already consider yourself. Right. So let's say, no. Okay, let me rephrase the question. Not you, Angela Duckworth, you person.

• 6:28Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah, this is like the veil of ignorance that like I'm a human.

• 6:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. Who came up with that?

• 6:32Angela Duckworth?

  It's John, is it Rawls?

• 6:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hume, Locke?

• 6:34Angela Duckworth?

  Rawls, I think.

• 6:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Really?

• 6:36Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah, it's either Locke or Rawls.

• 6:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  It doesn't predate that? I thought it was like Ring of Gaijes.

• 6:39Angela Duckworth?

  Oh my, no. I think the veil of ignorance is like, you know, and within the last 200 years.

• 6:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  So let's say you put on the veil of ignorance and you are a new entity and I say, you, o-veiled one, get to be in the top 1% globally forever in either grittiness, intellect, or wealth. Which do you choose and why? That's really what I want to know is the why.

• 7:02Angela Duckworth?

  Hmm. I mean, honest answer, but predictable answer. I would choose grit.

• 7:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Because?

• 7:10Angela Duckworth?

  Okay, so first of all, for wealth, I mean, I really just don't have any desire to be in the top, whatever percenta of wealth. And I'm sure you could do a lot of good with that wealth, but it's just, it's never been, you know, an appealing pursuit. So.

• 7:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Maybe not for its own sake, but then.

• 7:27Angela Duckworth?

  Instrumentally, though. I know you were saying like you could do great good.

• 7:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. Or even if not great good, whatever the stuff you could hope to get with the grit or the intellect, couldn't you get a lot easier with the wealth?

• 7:37Angela Duckworth?

  You know, I think there's a huge difference and my good friend, and you may know him, the psychologist Barry Schwartz, has.

• 7:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Paradox of choice.

• 7:45Angela Duckworth?

  The paradox of choice guy. So Barry Schwartz has something new that he's really obsessed about, and it is intrinsic motivation. And he would say, he calls it internal motivation, just to not be confused with, you know, what some people call intrinsic motivation. And basically, he says, you know, if you have a garden and, you know, the garden is producing beautiful flowers and beautiful fruits and vegetables, and you tend to the garden, there's a kind of worth, value and satisfaction that is derived, that is different from if you like pay a gardener to like do your garden. And I think there is something about earning your accomplishments that I don't think wealth, because wealth is kind of instrumental. Like, oh, I could pay somebody to, you know, accomplish this great research. It's different from doing it yourself.

• 8:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Or, so I can't say I don't agree with you, or I can't say that what you said.

• 8:30Angela Duckworth?

  Because I think you wouldn't have chosen wealth either, by the way.

• 8:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Doesn't resonate. Right. But on the other hand, I could argue, well, if I'm, if I'm at the upper end in wealth, then I could afford to have 10 different gardens that I would tend myself.

• 8:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  And have all different kinds of experiments and experience to figure out, let's say, I believe that the satisfaction that you just described of producing yourself, let's say that that is the most valuable thing. Well, I've just increased my ability to have even more of that.

• 8:58Angela Duckworth?

  I have a portfolio of garden investments.

• 9:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Exactly. Well, not just investments, but a portfolio of gardening opportunities.

• 9:04Angela Duckworth?

  Opportunities that you would then tend.

• 9:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 9:06Angela Duckworth?

  Although, you know, it's hard to tend, tend gardens.

• 9:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, how do you know? You haven't tried it. You're not wealthy enough to have ten gardens.

• 9:12Angela Duckworth?

  That's true. I'm not even wealthy enough to have one garden.

• 9:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  But you're knocking out wealth. You're knocking out wealth.

• 9:16Angela Duckworth?

  I'm knocking out wealth, but you know, I'm not, I'm not like passing moral judgment on anybody who wants to be wealthy.

• 9:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Intellect, you're also knocking out. Now, we should say, you're-

• 9:22Angela Duckworth?

  That was the horse race. That's where I was like, oh.

• 9:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  And you're a pretty smart cookie, I have to say.

• 9:26Angela Duckworth?

  Thank you. Okay, so here's what my husband would say, my, of me, right? So my husband thinks that the great irony is that I have spent my entire professional career studying everything other than IQ. In fact, my doctoral dissertation is called "Non-IQ Predictors of Success," right? It's like got a hyphen in it, non hyphen IQ.

• 9:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  It should, because it's a compound adjective. For our listeners out there, you should hyphenate your compound adjectives.

• 9:52Angela Duckworth?

  Yes.

• 9:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  So if you have a high school teacher, it should be high hafen, high hafen. It should be high hyphen school space teacher. Otherwise, you have a high school teacher.

• 10:05Angela Duckworth?

  Yes, or yes, exactly. Or yes, that's true. Yeah, so-

• 10:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  The kind of person who might say hafen instead of hyphen.

• 10:12Angela Duckworth?

  Yes, exactly. Right. So non-IQ. So I study all these non-IQ things like grit and delay gratification and growth mindset and, you know, and so the irony my husband thinks is that really I'm personally kind of obsessed with intelligence and that I love it and I, you know, wish I had more of it and that, you know, I really enjoy people who are just, you know, wicked smart.

• 10:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  And you seek out and accord higher status to people who are wicked smart even if they don't seem that high status in other realms?

• 10:38Angela Duckworth?

  I really love talking to people who are fast.

• 10:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Fast?

• 10:43Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah, like their brain. And I know that's not the only way to be smart, but just that their brain moves really quickly and you're like, oh, you know, and then like, you know, it doesn't take them that long to process a thought and then move on to the next one. So he- He's right about that, but I didn't pick it, you know, not just so I can be like consistent with my brand. But I do think if it were, if you, you know, you made it multiple choice, Stevens, I can't really like, you know, say that I wouldn't want to be smarter too. But in the long, long run, yeah, I mean, there are a lot of really smart people who don't accomplish much, but in the long, long run, I don't think there are that many people who are just, you know, the epitome of passion and perseverance who don't, you know, do something.

• 11:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Are you sure? I mean, isn't the world full of people that we don't know about? Despite the fact that they've been super gritty and they've exercised as you just ticked off perseverance and passion and yet didn't quote accomplish enough to become known.

• 11:39Angela Duckworth?

  Well, this is the thing about multiple choices, right? Like, you know, you're

• 11:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, now you're blaming the test.

• 11:44Angela Duckworth?

  Blaming the test. I'm blaming the test maker.

• 11:48Angela Duckworth?

  I'm blaming you, Stephen. So here's the thing though, right? Cause I think in a multiple choice where you're forced to pick one, you know, really on any of these, you could say, well, what if? Because I think actually what we want to be in life, you, me and everyone else is, you know, we probably want to be more than one thing. So you're right, grit isn't the only thing you need, you know, to be happy and successful. But if you have grit and, you know, good judgment or, you know, grit and humility, grit and a big heart. So you're right, it's not the only thing, but you know, neither is intelligence the only thing.

• 12:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Sure.

• 12:18Angela Duckworth?

  So there you go.

• 12:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, let me rephrase the question slightly then. Think about the purpose, I guess, of life. And what you think is the highest purpose, or it doesn't have to be one thing, right? What you believe to be kind of

• 12:32Angela Duckworth?

  My highest purpose, you mean?

• 12:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. So let's say that in order to successfully reach or fulfill that purpose as best as you can, which of the following then would be most useful in pursuit of said purpose? Grit, intellect or money?

• 12:49Angela Duckworth?

  Again, you're making me pick one, which I get it.

• 12:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, but first, tell us, what do you see as, what's the purpose of life?

• 12:54Angela Duckworth?

  What's the purpose of my life?

• 12:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 12:56Angela Duckworth?

  I'm just gonna use that big qualifier there because I don't want, right?

• 12:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Sure.

• 12:59Angela Duckworth?

  It's not, you know, not for me to tell you about your life. I think the purpose of my life is to achieve something. In other words, I do not think that the purpose of my life is to do something like be the happiest person or have the most experiences. You know, I remember distinctly the day I was taking a walk with my dad. I was, you know, young enough to still be like holding his hand and looking up. So I don't know how old I was, but I was a little girl. And I asked him, so I was old enough to ask him this question. I asked him if he was happy. And he stopped because every time he had to answer a question, he would just stop walking. It was very annoying. We didn't get very far very many days. And he said, why would I want to be happy? I want to be successful.

• 13:40Angela Duckworth?

  So I do think I inherited my father's sort of like, life is about accomplishing something important. And for me, it's, you know, I want to help kids like lead a healthy life. But I don't really think like, oh, I want to, you know, I haven't been to that country. Like, I want to see what that, you know, restaurant is like. I just, I don't care that much about like that kind of happiness.

• 14:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  And do you feel that you're driven toward that kind of accomplishment out of generosity and good-heartedness? Or because, look, you've accomplished a lot in your life. Your CV reads like a track record of a successful person, right? Great institutions of learning, great accomplishments.

• 14:19Angela Duckworth?

  I have a job.

• 14:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  You have a job, da-da, nice family, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Is it that you want to help other people, like I said, out of generosity, altruism? Or because you derive great pleasure and even, dare I say, happiness from the feeling of accomplishment?

• 14:35Angela Duckworth?

  So Kant, Immanuel Kant or Kant, depending on how you want to pronounce it, said, I think that if you do something good because it brings you pleasure, right? Because it feels good to do good, then it doesn't count, right? And I remember when I like learned this, I was taking justice, you know, moral reasoning. It was like my freshman year in college. And I remember thinking like, oh, what a guy thing to say. Like, I feel like it's like. You know, such like a, oh, if it's not rational and it's not like, you know, only because it's a moral principle. I actually think that a lot of our most benevolent and honorable motivations come from like a kind of visceral, like, it feels good. So when you ask me the question like, oh, why do I care about kids? Like, I really like them.

• 15:19Angela Duckworth?

  I mean, I really, like, you know, give me a random kid. I just like them. Give me a random adult, like, I don't know. I often like them, but not as often as I like kids.

• 15:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Where do dogs lie on that scale?

• 15:29Angela Duckworth?

  Oh, dogs are below kids. I'm really kind of not a dog person.

• 15:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  But above adults?

• 15:34Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah, well, let's see. Yeah, dogs might be somewhere between. No, I kind of like adult. I think actually like adults more.

• 15:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  You like dogs the least?

• 15:40Angela Duckworth?

  Cats, you didn't ask me about cats?

• 15:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 15:42Angela Duckworth?

  Cats are like right there below kids. I'm kind of a big cat person.

• 15:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  So I just asked you about the wrong animal.

• 15:48Angela Duckworth?

  Exactly.

• 15:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Gotcha. So you like cats more than adults?

• 15:51Angela Duckworth?

  Yes, let it go on the record.

• 15:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  If an adult has a cat?

• 15:55Angela Duckworth?

  Then I like them 10 times more.

• 15:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, yeah.

• 15:57Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah, so I do get a lot of just like, I don't know, selfish enjoyment from being with kids and like the idea that you could make some kids out there like happier. So there's a, you know, I don't think it's a, you know, purely, you know, an unemotional motive.

• 16:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  I really appreciate that distinction you just made. And it makes me think, you know, back to the kind of grit theory of life, which is without a passion for something, then it becomes a little bit of a, you know, accomplishment for accomplishment's sake or success for success's sake, right?

• 16:29Angela Duckworth?

  I mean, I think you can be a gritty person who's using all your grit for bad. I mean, let me just be clear, like, I don't, I don't want to say-

• 16:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hitler was gritty.

• 16:37Angela Duckworth?

  Yes, the canonical sort of, you know, everyone rolls out Hitler as the example of like, oh, but then again, there was Hitler. But in this case, yes.

• 16:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Sorry if my example is a cliche. Stalin was also gritty.

• 16:49Angela Duckworth?

  Hitler, yes, Stalin, let's take Stalin for a little variety. But no, seriously, I think in general, one of the things that really motivates people to stay committed to something for a long time is feeling like you're part of something bigger than yourself. Now, again, you can be misguided, but very, very often, it is a kind of like benevolent, you know, like, oh, this isn't just for me, kind of motivation. That also, it's maybe not your only fuel, but it's also one of the things that motivates you. So for me, like, yeah, I would pick grit because I feel like I would be able to achieve what I want to do with my life, which is to accomplish something for kids. Intelligence, I think, would also be awesome. If you made it two choices, of course, I'd pick intelligence probably as my second choice.

• 17:31Angela Duckworth?

  But, you know, why don't I just be the gritty person who gets all the smart people to work on this project? That's basically my strategy in life.

• 17:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up after the break, Angela Duckworth has a question for me.

• 17:44Angela Duckworth?

  This is the question, I could have studied in graduate school for psychology, but I took another path.

• 17:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Which inevitably leads to more questions.

• 17:53Angela Duckworth?

  Like, how many Prince Charleses can there be in the room, right?

• 17:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  You are listening to this special experimental question-asking episode of Freakonomics Radio with Angela Duckworth. We'll be right back.

• 18:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. The best investments are the ones you make in yourself, and no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. With more than 200 online degree programs, no set class times, and low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University is built to fit your life today and set you up for success tomorrow. Education is an investment. Why not make it a smart one? Apply for free at SNHU.edu/freakonomics.

• 18:42Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 19:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example? Well, PNC Bank did, since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely not YOLO type. PNC Bank: brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC.

• 20:03Angela Duckworth?

  Stephen, I have a question.

• 20:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hit me.

• 20:06Angela Duckworth?

  This is the question I could have studied in graduate school for psychology, but I took another path. And here it is. Charisma. The other day, I was talking to my younger daughter, Lucy, and she said something about how you can't teach charisma. Some people are naturally super charismatic, and some people nobody wants to be with, and you can't get from one end to the other. Do you think that charisma can be taught? And like, I don't know, you've interviewed a lot of people. Who's the most charismatic person you've ever met?

• 20:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hmm, so I like the question. I could answer the most charismatic people part. That's easy. But let me go back to the nature of the question. So the nature of the question is charisma. Learned or inherent, correct?

• 20:52Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah, like nature, nurture charisma.

• 20:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, so in order to answer that, I would want to turn it around and ask you, how are we defining charisma? Because I have a definition in my head, but I want to know what yours is.

• 21:01Angela Duckworth?

  All right, so I'll go first, and then you tell me yours, okay? So I think charisma is a kind of, almost like a magnetic force that draws people's attention in a very positive way. So when I think of somebody who is like, really charismatic, it's like you can't take your eyes off them, and they're the star. They sort of like, you know, it's not like you can't take your eyes off them, and it's terrible. It's more like it's a very admiring, and also, I think, kind of like, almost an affectionate kind of attention.

• 21:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. I think that was a very good definition, better than I could do, because I was about to think that you were describing Someone who could also be terrible, but then you saved it at the end by bringing in affection, right? It has to be a positive, right?

• 21:45Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah.

• 21:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  I mean, I think we all know people who are charismatic, who have bad intentions.

• 21:49Angela Duckworth?

  Well, I think Donald Trump is charismatic.

• 21:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, gosh. I mean, I think.

• 21:53Angela Duckworth?

  Do you agree?

• 21:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  I think even the people who hate him the very most would agree.

• 21:57Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah, okay. So that's what I mean. So I'm not saying that I.

• 21:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Gotcha, gotcha.

• 21:59Angela Duckworth?

  Right? Yeah. So, yeah.

• 22:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  So I like your definition much better than mine. Mine would be something like charisma is the quality, someone having the quality that makes me want to do what they do or believe what they believe.

• 22:18Angela Duckworth?

  Oh, so you want to emulate them?

• 22:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  It makes me.

• 22:22Angela Duckworth?

  Or follow them.

• 22:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Want to emulate them in some way. So it's a little bit different than an inspiration, but it makes, I define charisma as somebody who embodies or articulates a whatever, an idea, a worldview.

• 22:38Angela Duckworth?

  A point of view.

• 22:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, that strikes me as like, yeah, that is.

• 22:41Angela Duckworth?

  So they're persuasive. They're like maximally persuasive in a way?

• 22:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, not necessarily, because look, the people, there are a lot of people who hate Trump as a president, who describe him as charismatic and plainly they're not being persuaded.

• 22:53Angela Duckworth?

  They're not persuaded, right. That would be me. Like, I don't think he's, yeah, he hasn't persuaded me of very much. So who, okay, so other than Trump, who, let's list names and people that we think are super charismatic.

• 23:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, first of all, I'm really bad at fill in the blank. I'm better at multiple choice. But you asked me who have interviewed that I think are charismatic. So I'll name a few, okay? Wynton Marsalis, the musician. Now, I happen to like his music, and I happen to like him as a person, and I happen to like his story and what he does. And he was just like, I just wanted to like, have a stool and carry the stool around and sit wherever he was.

• 23:29Angela Duckworth?

  Follow him around.

• 23:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, he has a spirit about him that I find.

• 23:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Joyful and challenging and large.

• 23:40Angela Duckworth?

  Hmm.

• 23:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  And he has a way of dealing with bad things that people have said or done too. That is very like, yeah, that was a, that was a crap thing. And that's not my problem. I'm going to figure out how to, you know, how to, how to do my thing. Well, and I love that, you know, Bill Clinton, I have an interview, but I, I interacted with him a few times. He has.

• 24:02Angela Duckworth?

  Oh, if you Google it, cause I have, I Googled it.

• 24:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Charisma plus blank and it's Bill Clinton.

• 24:07Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah. Well, you're like, who is super charismatic or like charismatic role models? Or if you go on YouTube and you look for like charisma videos, so usually get like Will Smith, Bill Clinton. Actually, interestingly, they're mostly men.

• 24:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  When I was thinking through just now, I was coming up with men and I had to like actively turn on the.

• 24:27Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah. You're like, oh, wait.

• 24:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Search engine over. So I did think of a couple. Well, well, let me, okay, let me finish my list because Clinton, whatever. But I think a lot of politicians, I mean, that's how they're successful. It's like Eric Garcetti, the mayor of Los Angeles that you and I.

• 24:39Angela Duckworth?

  Oh, my gosh. So charismatic.

• 24:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Super charismatic.

• 24:42Angela Duckworth?

  Super charismatic.

• 24:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Also the mayor of London, who we had on the show recently, Sadiq Khan, super charismatic. But again, I think there's a strong overlap between charisma and electability.

• 24:51Angela Duckworth?

  Okay.

• 24:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right? Probably not so surprising. Here's someone I found super charismatic, even though he's not like vibrant necessarily, Steven Spielberg.

• 25:00Angela Duckworth?

  Oh, really?

• 25:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Because.

• 25:01Angela Duckworth?

  I don't know him.

• 25:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  I found him, this was a long time ago, but I spent about a week with him, writing a piece about him and, and I, I found him really remarkable in this sort of combination of, this is probably not quite right, but it felt like a combination of confidence and humility.

• 25:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  That made him.

• 25:20Angela Duckworth?

  So attractive, so appealing.

• 25:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  Super attractive.

• 25:22Angela Duckworth?

  But now I feel like our definition is getting too big, right? Cause now I feel like we're just like, oh, and I sure like Steven Spielberg.

• 25:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Either that or I never interview charismatic people. And truth be told, I think most people that would be characterized as charismatic are not the kind of people that we interview.

• 25:36Angela Duckworth?

  I would agree with that. I don't think you get many like.

• 25:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Except for you.

• 25:41Angela Duckworth?

  It's present company excluded. No, but I don't think you get much like mileage in academia by having, you know, charisma.

• 25:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, that's probably not true.

• 25:50Angela Duckworth?

  I mean, I think you get a little bit, right? But here's the thing, here's a narrower definition, because I don't want it to just be like, oh, people we like, you know, or likability. I think that when most people think of charisma, they're thinking about a public, you know, public speaking, you know, like TED or some other venue, you know, where it's not just like, oh, you and Whitman Marsalis just happen to be at a coffee shop and like, he happens to be really, I mean, I know we use that word charisma also to describe those people. But in that case, then the question is like, what makes somebody who's in a kind of public role really, why did Hillary Clinton, I think Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton are really a good example, because if you Google Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton charisma.

• 26:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you think he like did a charisma transplant in her sleep and stole hers?

• 26:31Angela Duckworth?

  Well, okay, so you're saying the same thing that everyone says, which is that he was naturally charismatic and she was the opposite.

• 26:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  I didn't say naturally, by the way, but.

• 26:39Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah, I did, I did put that word. Do you want to say it? It's multiple choice.

• 26:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  I have no idea. I mean, I've read a fair amount about him. My sense is that he realized from a very early age what he wanted to do and figured out how to do it, and part of that was being charming. The first time I met him, like I said, I've interacted with him a few times in a.

• 26:56Angela Duckworth?

  Just playing golf or something?

• 26:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  No, we, we actually, um, we were, I warmed up for him as a speaker several times.

• 27:03Angela Duckworth?

  Oh, really?

• 27:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  We had the same, I think we had the same lecture agent, maybe still do.

• 27:08Angela Duckworth?

  Ah.

• 27:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  And he was out speaking a lot and I was out speaking a lot and sometimes we'd be like, part of the same.

• 27:13Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah, you'd be on the docket together.

• 27:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  And the first time I met him, I came, this is an example of his charisma. I just finished speaking, I came backstage and he was standing there.

• 27:22Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah.

• 27:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  And he was nice and kind and chatty, whatever. And then, check this out, he goes out to start his talk. And how does he start it? By complimenting me, the former speaker. He said something like, how about that Freakonomics? You've read the book, now you've seen the movie, it was even better. Like, a totally gratuitous.

• 27:42Angela Duckworth?

  It was warm, it was generous.

• 27:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  It was super generous.

• 27:45Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah.

• 27:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, anyway, to me, that is like, that's the fine line between like charisma and what's, what's right before or after, because

• 27:53Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah.

• 27:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Like charisma, I just looked up the etymology, I don't know how accurate this is, the English term charisma is from the Greek, which means favor freely given or gift of grace.

• 28:03Angela Duckworth?

  Oh, that's so interesting.

• 28:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Which implies a sort of benevolence.

• 28:08Angela Duckworth?

  Divinity, too. Also, it implies a kind of, because if you imagine somebody who's like lower status than you being charismatic, it doesn't feel right. You know, it feels right for someone to be Oprah and charismatic, but not like somebody who is, you know.

• 28:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wait a minute, go in, say, give me an example, what do you mean?

• 28:24Angela Duckworth?

  Well, okay, so here's my view of, so, by the way, I was an intern in the White House during the Clinton administration. Actually, I believe it was the Monica Lewinsky summer.

• 28:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  What do you mean, you believe it was, you know it was?

• 28:36Angela Duckworth?

  Okay, I, I know it was. I know, that sounds, I sound like a politician, like, well, it may or may not have been the summer of Monica Lewinsky.

• 28:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  And how much did you interact with President Clinton?

• 28:46Angela Duckworth?

  Well, I was in the speech writing office, and so I penned a few of his very short remarks, including the, you know, address to the land grant colleges. It was, you know, it was like a, it was like a anniversary, and I did get to meet him once.

• 29:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can you give us a phrase?

• 29:04Angela Duckworth?

  From his remarks.

• 29:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  From one of your speeches, maybe on the land grant?

• 29:06Angela Duckworth?

  On the anniversary of the land.

• 29:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  That was a big deal.

• 29:08Angela Duckworth?

  I cannot recall verbatim, but I believe that he expressed his, you know, steadfast commitment to this great American tradition.

• 29:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wow, that's juicy. Thanks for sharing that.

• 29:17Angela Duckworth?

  There you go. I was like 20 something, I didn't know what I was doing.

• 29:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you met him once?

• 29:21Angela Duckworth?

  I met him, and, you know, even then, because now I feel like, you know, in, in some ways, his reputation as like the go-to charismatic role model has even become greater than it was during his presidency. And even then, everybody said like, oh, gosh, all you have to do is be in the same room as Bill Clinton, you know, for a minute and you'll fall in love.

• 29:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  So one thing that people say about him and many other people who are quote charismatic is that when you're talking to them, they make you feel as if you're the only person in the room.

• 29:50Angela Duckworth?

  Yes, and I think he did have that kind of rapt attention. And so I will say that when I met him, I mean, it was something like all of 12 seconds, right? Like, he thanked me, you know, he shook my hand, he took both hands in his hand, like, you know, he used both of his hands to shake my hand.

• 30:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did he kiss you on the lips?

• 30:07Angela Duckworth?

  Did not kiss me. I was not, I was not his favorite intern, I guess. But he does look you in the eye and he did do something. Now, I may be conflating this with like YouTube videos. I was constantly watching on like how to be charismatic. Cause like I said, I find this just interesting as a scientist. He, you know, he kind of like, you make eye contact, right? And it feels like he just wants to keep looking at you and like that you look away. Right? Like he can't take his eyes.

• 30:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  And his eyes are so intense that you just can't stay locked on because you're afraid you'll melt?

• 30:38Angela Duckworth?

  Like, I can't say, but I tried this out. So I'm like watching these YouTube videos. Now, this is fast forwarding, you know, like many years, like a couple of decades later. And it was actually during my book tour and I was, you know, sort of like both interested in charisma. But also I was like, oh, when you're, when you're signing books for a line of people where you can only interact with people for like six or seven seconds, like what advice do you have to? So I'm Googling charisma and here's something that I found on YouTube. Again, this is not validated scientific, you know, fact, but it said, for example, when you're in a receiving line, you know, don't look away. Like, you know, the other, they're eventually going to look away and they will, but don't be the first one to look away. And I do think that's all about signaling to somebody like, I want to be here. You're the object of my fascination.

• 31:23Angela Duckworth?

  There's nothing else I want to do, but listen to what you're going to say next.

• 31:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  So did you learn to sign their book while looking at them?

• 31:30Angela Duckworth?

  No, but I did try to actually not look away because I thought, well, first of all, I just wanted to try it and see. And I do feel like it was one of those like non-verbal cues of respect. Right? Like, okay, think about the opposite. Like, you know how people, I remember this when I was in college, there would be certain people that you'd have breakfast with, you know, and you're in the cafeteria and they're kind of looking over your shoulder to see if there's someone better to like talk. I hate that. And this is just the opposite of that. Right? So you're really just paying respect to the person.

• 31:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  And did you also, I mean, if you have six or seven seconds, you know, you obviously have to be very efficient. Did you also say their names when they left?

• 32:06Angela Duckworth?

  You mean the Dale Carnegie effect?

• 32:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Exactly. The power of posit. Wait, not the power of posit.

• 32:10Angela Duckworth?

  How to win friends and influence people. So the Dale Carnegie effect where you say someone's name, Stephen, right? Do I do that? Well, you know, I think Dale Carnegie was right about a lot of things. And I think he's right about this one, which again, all you're doing is you're giving somebody a cue that they matter, right? And I think a lot of charisma is like, this person really thinks that you matter, but it's only half of the equation, right? I think you also have to signal that you're high status. So, you know, it's kind of like, I like you and

• 32:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm worth.

• 32:40Angela Duckworth?

  And the world likes me.

• 32:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. So what do you do if you're not high status?

• 32:45Angela Duckworth?

  Well, I remember figuring this out in third grade a little bit for myself because we moved. So we moved from like one side of town to the other. You know, my dad got promoted and I actually think there were railroad tracks. So maybe it's like the wrong side of the tracks to the right side of the tracks. And it was January and you know, it's the middle of school year. So I had to make friends and this new kind of posher neighborhood where the kids were wearing designer jeans. I was just like, well, how do I do? So I actually had that problem, right? Cause I had these like frugal parents. I wasn't wearing designer jeans. I was the new kid. There wasn't anything especially awesome about me. I wasn't very athletic. So I remember like explicitly thinking out loud, I think even maybe wrote in my diary, like to make friends, you just need to communicate two things. I like you and I like me.

• 33:30Angela Duckworth?

  So if you want to communicate, I like you, you know, I contact, you know, mention their name, like be interested in what they're saying. How do you signal, I like me, which is really a proxy for the world likes me? That actually I think is, is a little more like nuanced, but I think that, you know, smiling or, you know, basically not being self deprecating, maybe things like posture help, but I think the most effective, you know, way to do it is for somebody else to signal that you're high status or that the world likes you.

• 33:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you pay people to treat you as if you're better than you are? Is that what you're saying?

• 34:03Angela Duckworth?

  That would, that would be one way. You didn't have a lot of pocket money when I was in third grade.

• 34:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  How did you signal as a third grader then that you liked yourself?

• 34:10Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah, I mean, the thing is, first of all, I did. I'm just like, I was like, you know, pretty happy.

• 34:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you just, so you just put the humility out there.

• 34:17Angela Duckworth?

  I just was like, you know, like letting it all hang out. And, and I think I was like, happy. I mean, I think that the people who like walk around the world and they do signal those two things. And I'm not saying it's a recipe to follow, but I do think like, if you just notice the people that are attractive, it is so often that they make you feel like you're great. And they also seem to have like a healthy, you know, they have healthy self-esteem.

• 34:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let me ask you one last thing on the topic of charisma. Is charisma a not finite, but limited resource in that?

• 34:50Angela Duckworth?

  Like it runs out?

• 34:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, no, no, no, not quite. But is it, is it not quite a zero sum issue? But like, if there's a group of 20 people, how many people can?

• 34:59Angela Duckworth?

  How can be?

• 35:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, because if everybody's charismatic, then isn't nobody charismatic?

• 35:03Angela Duckworth?

  Yeah, I do think there is something about, you know, when people are like, oh, they stole the show. I think that we use that language because there is a kind of exclusivity about charisma. And that's why I say it's, there's something about status. Like, you know, I met the prince, well, Prince Charles, I was very young, I was in my twenties. And I think for him to be charismatic, you know, he already had the high status part, right? So he had half the equation, like, you know, just by birth and by everyone else treating him the way they were treating him. All he needed to do is the second part of the equation, which is like when he's with you, to be completely wrapped, to be just totally fascinated by what you're going to say. And he pulled it off. I will, I will say he was genuinely charismatic. So I think there is a kind of like, how many Prince Charleses can there be in the room? Right?

• 35:46Angela Duckworth?

  Like, you know, the moment a king walks in, he's no longer, you know, the highest ranking person.

• 35:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's so interesting. And I never thought of like stealing the show in that way. Right? Because if you gain, somebody loses. So it is maybe not zero sum. But, um, so if people listening to this want to have more charisma, is the easiest way to just surround yourself with people with really low charisma?

• 36:12Angela Duckworth?

  You know, the contrast effect? I don't know, because you're also trying to signal that the world loves you. Right? So like, I like you and the world likes me. Those are the two parts of the equation. This is my little proto theory. So if you really were someone that the world liked, like, why would you be hanging out with losers? Right? So.

• 36:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  I like how they went from nice, low charisma people to losers.

• 36:33Angela Duckworth?

  Total losers.

• 36:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Gosh.

• 36:34Angela Duckworth?

  I know. Look at that, me being all high status and all that. No, maybe not the most charismatic thing to say.

• 36:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Thanks for listening to this little stocking stuffer of an episode with Angela Duckworth. So, do you think we should do this more often as its own separate podcast? Let us know by writing to [email protected]. Meanwhile, coming up next time on Freakonomics Radio, there is strong evidence that exercise is wildly beneficial. There is even stronger evidence that most people hate to exercise. So, if a pill could mimic the effects of exercise, why wouldn't you want to take it?

• 37:12Speaker 03

  When we gave it to sedentary mice, the drug progressively activated the genetic program that is normally activated by exercise.

• 37:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  The zero-minute workout, just in time for your New Year's resolution. It's next time on Freakonomics Radio. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Dubner Productions. This episode was produced by Alison Craiglow. Our staff also includes Greg Rippon, Zach Lipinski, Matt Hickey, Daphne Chen, Harry Huggins, and Corinne Wallace. We had help this week from James Foster. Our theme song is "Mr. Fortune" by The Hitchhikers. All the other music was composed by Luis Guerra. You can subscribe to Freakonomics Radio on any podcast app. Our entire archive is available exclusively on the Stitcher app or at Freakonomics.com, where we also publish show notes and transcripts, and where you can sign up for our email newsletter.

• 38:04Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 38:30Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 39:02Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 39:47Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 40:11Speaker 04

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