272. Trevor Noah Has a Lot to Say

The Daily Show host grew up as a poor, mixed-race South African kid going to three churches every Sunday. So he has a sui generis view of America — especially on race, politics, and religion — and he's not afraid to speak his mind.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring, great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life, like banking, for example? Well, PNC Bank did, since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely-not-yolo type. PNC Bank: brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC.

• 0:48Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:20Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:53Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  I am curious, in this, the era of podcasting, how does it feel to just be doing a TV show? Does that depress you, knowing that you're the wave of the past?

• 2:43Speaker 01

  It doesn't depress me at all. If it wasn't for the visual element of the telly that we are doing, then I would never get to dress up. I mean, right now, your listeners don't realize that we're both sitting here pantsless, having this conversation.

• 3:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Trevor Noah, host of The Daily Show, is a seriously funny and a seriously smart man. He also brings to his job a sui generis view of America, our politics, our customs, our obsessions.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  It's all about statistics. Have you seen sports in America? Nonstop, you know everything, you know everything. And then you switch over to like your business channels and your economy, and you're like, what's happening in the economy this year, Bob?

• 3:26Speaker 02

  Well, nobody knows, I mean...

• 3:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Noah grew up as a mixed-race kid in South Africa during the final years of apartheid. When he holds a mirror up to America for us to see, it's almost as if it's a two-way mirror. Yes, he's an outsider dwelling on the differences, but he often zeroes in on the similarities.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  The people with the longest history of getting [bleeped] over in America are the ones who are getting [bleeped] over. Like, this is the conversation. The conversation seems to go, "The pipeline is completely safe." And it's like, well, then, why didn't you build it under the white people's houses? Well, because it might leak. So it's not safe, it's just safe enough for the Native Americans. No, it's not a race thing, it's that if the pipe leaks, there's fewer of them than of us. And why are there fewer of them?

• 4:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Noah has been in the States for five years now. A major highlight? Interviewing President Obama.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd like to apologize, first of all. I know you've waited a long time for this and you wanted to make this happen. I just, I'm sorry, I...

• 4:35Speaker 03

  You guys wouldn't, uh, wouldn't book us? I kept on, I kept on calling.

• 4:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  And Noah was one of the few people who talk for a living, who didn't discount the possibility of Donald Trump becoming president. Nor did he explain Trump's election in the usual fashion.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  When you look at the election results, the color red doesn't necessarily mean white power. It can also mean there are people who wanted the world to pay attention to them.

• 5:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Today on Freakonomics Radio, Trevor Noah on politics, race, religion, and his excellent new memoir, Born a Crime.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  I was the first person in my family who was allowed to go to a white school or a school that was considered white.

• 5:32Speaker 04

  From WNYC Studios, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 5:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  I would think that comedians around the world are going to be very pissed off at you because rather than just writing up a book of all your comedy stuff, which is what they usually do, you went and actually wrote a real book, which raises the bar.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Oh, wow, thank you. Most people would see it as a book about me growing up in apartheid. It's not really that. Apartheid was merely the, the container that my life existed within. If anything, it's a story of myself and my mom. And, you know, it's a crazy journey that we lived through together.

• 6:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Trevor Noah was born in South Africa in 1984. His mother was black and African, his father, white and European. This meant that Noah was technically Born a Crime, the title of his book. The rules of apartheid dictated that neither his mother nor father could publicly acknowledge this mixed-race boy as their son. His mother, if asked, would pretend she was his babysitter. His father literally ran away from him on the street if he started shouting daddy, daddy. Noah grew up primarily with his mother and her family in the black township of Soweto. He was very poor, but also much loved, much encouraged.

• 7:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  And he was good at many things: language, sports, making people laugh, and taking the temperature of a room. You write as a kid that you really became a chameleon linguistically, but in other ways too, and that you use that to your advantage. You wrote that the way to bridge the gap between different people was their language and so on. So is chameleon essentially always a good thing?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. Fundamentally, a chameleon may change its color, but it's still a chameleon. And that's really what a chameleon is doing. A chameleon is, for me, doing two things. It is blending into its environment to protect itself, but also so as not to disturb the environment and to create a panic.

• 7:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, what if someone said, well, that means that you're not being your authentic self? Is that a concern?

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Oh, it doesn't concern me at all. What you're saying is my authentic self is one thing. Why does that need to be? So could you not see the same person as being... Think of a parent. A parent is a provider, but at the same time, they're a protector. A parent is someone who provides love, but also discipline. You get what I'm saying? You can be many things at the same time whilst authentically being yourself.

• 8:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  So your mom is remarkable, and she obviously taught you a lot, and you learned a lot from her, and you learned a lot on your own as well. She talked about one of her greatest hopes was that you wouldn't have to pay what she called a black tax. That you'd have to work harder than a white person. Just to get back to zero.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that generationally, that can even compound on itself. Talk to me for a minute about that concept of the black tax there in South Africa versus here now.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Well, if you, if you think of it like this, you know, a lot of the time when you hear people having conversations about white privilege, you know, male privilege and so on, I think sometimes what gets lost is with the word privilege comes the connotation of having a good time. You know, people go, what privilege? I may be a white man, but I'm poor. I may be a white man, but I'm suffering. And that is completely true. And sometimes I go, maybe it in, in the labeling, it's almost like it could have gone the other way. And it's like, it's a, is it a black disadvantage? Or is it a female disadvantage? Because we cannot deny that there are certain handicaps that come with these certain labels, you know, that exist. And if you look at the effects of what you've lived through in your life,

• 9:20Speaker 01

  you cannot deny that they compound. You cannot deny that they grow over time. So people who say things like, get over it, slavery is done, or get over it, apartheid is over, get over. Then I go, you cannot get over it because it ending is merely the beginning of your journey. And so you think of it like this, in my family, I was the first person in my family who was allowed to go to a white school or a school that was considered white. My grandparents were not taught the things that other people's grandparents were taught if they were white in the country. And so now, even if we're not talking about financial inheritance,

• 10:03Speaker 01

  we're talking about now educational inheritance. My grandfather and grandmother couldn't bequeath to me an education that they would have learned because they didn't get it. My mother self taught for many things. She was lucky in that she encountered a missionary. And that's where she learned things that the government wasn't teaching to many black people. So there you see someone equalizing or trying to, you know, to get her back to zero, which is where everyone should be able to start from.

• 10:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  But she was also, I mean, look, to be frank, your mother was singularly. Maybe not singularly extraordinarily driven.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  For her own life. She wanted to have a child, even if there wasn't a marriage.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 10:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that child was you. And then the extent to which she made sure to, I mean, literally invest in you, take you to places that cost nothing, expose you to things that cost nothing, expose you to languages and help teach you languages. So, you know.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  But that's, but that's an example of my mother working extra hard to make sure that I was at least at the zero level that a child who was not black would be at. And that's, that's what I'm saying is she was trying to make sure that I wasn't in a place where I would now have to pay back, in essence, for things that I didn't have access to beforehand.

• 11:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  So that's fantastic for you, fantastic for her, and she's obviously to be applauded for that. But on the other hand, because she is such an outlier, you have to think about, well, when the system itself doesn't provide for that opportunity for everybody, what do you do? So I'm just curious. I do think that you think about our society, including race, very differently.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  I think it's because I've, I've been lucky enough to live all over the world. So South Africa birthed me, South Africa raised me. But then I spent a lot of time living elsewhere, you know? So I've gotten to spend cumulatively a year living in the UK. I've got to spend six months in Australia. I got to spend now five years living in the US. I've gotten to spend so much time living in different places, even experiencing what it means to be black in different places. And, and so with that comes a different way of processing information. With that comes a different way of, of trying to understand what we're dealing with in the world, whether it comes to, like you say, these systems that oppress people and,

• 12:21Speaker 01

  and these, these ideas that are designed to hold people back.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  This is the strangest thing. They ask all the weird questions, questions that have nothing to do with a man being shot who is unarmed. They come in and go, also, also noted is Walter Scott owed $16,000 in child support.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  To the cup?

• 12:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you were very, very religious as a child.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Then as a Christian, as a Roman Catholic. But then your mom converted to Judaism. What's your religious situation now?

• 12:55Speaker 01

  I'm spiritual. I think what constantly throws me with religion is the taint of man, I find.

• 13:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  You know? Humankind, you mean, or maleness?

• 13:05Speaker 01

  That as well, because a lot of religion is framed around patriarchy. You know, it's men using this mythical thing to oppress other people and women. You know, most religions aren't very, very progressive in terms of women's rights.

• 13:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  Although they are reflective of the eras in which they were formed, of course.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. But what I'm saying is there's just not even one religion where it's just like, no, no, men need to cover up more. And men are the ones that are dirty and men are the ones that... Do you get what I'm saying?

• 13:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Maybe you should start one.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Maybe you should.

• 13:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Maybe this Daily Show thing is just a waystation on the route to starting... What would you call your religion?

• 13:45Speaker 01

  What would I call my religion? The Church of the Truth. That's what I would call it.

• 13:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right, very, very... Shooting small.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  It's got a catchy, catchy name, right? Yeah, where do you go? I go to the Church of the Truth.

• 13:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you still pray?

• 13:55Speaker 01

  I do.

• 13:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  What do you pray for? I realize it's a question you don't have to answer.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  No, I see prayer as a form of meditation. So essentially, you know, when I look, when I look across religions, I find a common thread. And I go, you know, so if you look at a person who's meditating, that's no different to what a lot of people who worship, you know, under Islam are doing five times a day. They're taking time out of their day and getting into a zone. And that's really what prayer is for me. You know, it's taking a moment to be mindful, thinking about your world, thinking about your day, think, visualizing, thinking about a future, thinking about the past.

• 14:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is there a deity involved?

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Not necessarily, not necessarily. I think, again, that's where man has attached himself to the God, you know? I think if if there is a God, it's something we cannot understand that is far beyond our our comprehension of what we would think because we make make it like it's just like basically a big version of Santa Claus, who decides who gets gifts and who doesn't.

• 14:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  I was going to ask you who God prays for. So there's a tradition in Judaism, you know, do you know anything about midrash, midrashim?

• 15:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 15:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's like, so midrashim are these kind of informal but revered Jewish teachings by the sages, right? There's one midrash about what God prays for, which I thought was a fascinating idea, just because it flips it. And the question is asked, what does God pray for? And the answer is, he prays that his mercy be greater than his anger.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 15:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Which I found to be very compelling, because the Bible is full of an angry God.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  That people struggle with. And the the midrashic argument is that, well, if you want to anthropomorphize God, which maybe is not a good idea, but if you do, and you see him being so pissed off all the time, that the way to think about it is that he is like a parent to these kids who are being a pain in the ass.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  That makes sense.

• 15:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Like, kind of like you, like your mom was a fellow.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  That's exactly how I was, yeah.

• 15:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that when people who are meant to watch other people strike out at them, it's not about being angry at them, it's about being scared for them. And so he wanted his mercy to be always greater than his anger.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  That is fascinating. That's a fascinating thought. I don't think I ever think about it that deeply. I I try, and then I always get caught up in personifying a God too much. And then I'm like, yeah.

• 16:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that feels counterproductive.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Well, I go like, this is what I think I would be if I were a God, which is, I think what everyone does.

• 16:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Really?

• 16:25Speaker 01

  That's what everyone's doing. Yeah, everyone's basically going, I think God would do this, and I think God would. It's like, no, no, no. What you're saying is, I think I would do this if I were a God. That is what you're really saying.

• 16:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  So what would you do if you were a God? Whether you have your own religion?

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know if I'd give people free will. That's like, you know, that's why I don't, that's why I don't think I'd be a good God.

• 16:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's a, that's a big one to take right off the table.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think I would. Why would you give the people the will to hurt you? That makes no sense to me. And that's why I say God must be beyond everything we conceive if there is a God, because I wouldn't let you choose to do the thing that would, that would hurt me. Why, why would I want that?

• 17:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  You sound like someone who grew up under a very repressive dictator, a very repressive government, I have to say.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  It sounds like you're talking about apartheid, but I'm talking about my mom. Yes, I did. Very, very oppressive regime. That was my mother.

• 17:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up after the break, Trevor Noah does Donald Trump. These people, they want to change. And we're gonna, you know, that's what we're gonna do. We're gonna make America great again. And he explains why he's not interested in being as angry as his predecessor, Jon Stewart.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  You're trying to win. Your anger doesn't help you win. Half of the time, it sends you into a blind rage.

• 17:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's coming up on Freakonomics Radio.

• 17:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Quince. You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat? The sweater that goes with everything? The perfect pair of pants or the tee you somehow always reach for first? Those are the pieces that make getting dressed easy, and that's what Quince does best. Quince focuses on high-quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and merino wool. The styles are timeless, versatile, and designed to become the dependable pieces you reach for day after day. And it's not just clothing. Quince brings that same approach to everything they make, from hotel-quality bedding and bath to kitchen essentials and thoughtfully designed furniture. Find your next fall favorites at Quince.

• 18:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com/freak. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's Q U I N C E dot com slash freak.

• 18:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. The best investments are the ones you make in yourself, and no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. With more than 200 online degree programs, no set class times, and low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University is built to fit your life today and set you up for success tomorrow. Education is an investment. Why not make it a smart one? Apply for free at SNHU.edu/freakonomics. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing

• 19:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example? Well, PNC Bank did, since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely-not-yolo type. PNC Bank: brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc.

• 20:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  PNC Bank: National Association, Member FDIC. Trevor Noah, born a crime in South Africa, has achieved personal success beyond what he ever could have conceived. It was stand-up comedy that made it happen.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Why do you guys censor your hip-hop on hip-hop radio stations? I understand, when I listen to Kiss, they played a hip-hop song, and then they censor. I was like, OK, maybe some people don't like... But then, on the hip-hop station, they censor hip-hop? Why would you do that? It's a hip-hop station. Surely, everyone listening to the hip-hop station knows what hip-hop is all about. Like, is there somebody listening to hip-hop who doesn't like the cussing particularly? Who are the people that made these laws? Who was that person who was like, you know what, you know what, I can't handle the cussing? I just can't handle... Please, cut it out. But keep the misogyny. Keep that in. Keep that in. Because these hoes ain't loyal.

• 21:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  America has a lot of conversations lately about diversity and what that means. And there are some people who argue, and I tend to agree with them, that often people talk about diversity in terms of the most observable characteristics.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Skin color is very observable, gendered, et cetera, et cetera. And that those characteristics may actually be emblematic of something that's not all that substantial. Whereas the less observable characteristics inside of a person, which may be much more significant, how people think religiously, politically, how they think about the military, on and on, those are, because they're not observable, we kind of don't count them in terms of diversity. So what you may end up with in the kind of modern American form of diversity is a bunch of people who may look fairly different.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  But think exactly alike, as opposed to a bunch of people who have different thoughts and may or may not look alike. And I'm curious whether you think what I just stated is true in your experience, and if so, what you think is a better way to think about it.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's complicated, and none of us have figured it out. What I will say is this, within that world, the one thing you're negating is the fact that what you feel or think about the world is not mutually exclusive from what the world thinks or feels about you. So if you have a room, let's say you have a room of only purple people, they may all have different religions, they may all have different beliefs about the economy and the military and so on, but the one thing they all have in common is they're all purple. And so it stands to reason that they've all shared similar experiences in and around being purple. So the way the world reacts to them is as purple people.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  And so although it may not be perfect, when you have a room of different colors, what happens is each of those colors has interacted with the world in a different way, because unfortunately, that's what the world is like now. So there is an element of that. What you're saying is completely true, and there is no fix-all, I think, but you cannot deny that that is something that also informs you and changes who you are.

• 23:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  I very much see your point, and I agree with your point. I guess the bigger challenge... Is when you say it's hard to fix that or it's hard to change it. Again, the scholars that I'm thinking I would say, well, that is true. But the the first thing you have to do is realize that the human brain makes decisions all the time based on shortcuts.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  That are kind of bad ways of thinking, you know?

• 23:45Speaker 01

  That makes sense.

• 23:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that wouldn't it be great if rather than saying, you know, I'm going to group these people alike because they're all purple or white or black, whatever. I'm going to actually try to figure out some kind of litmus test of my own to think, are these good people or are these honest people, these trustworthy people?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  You are right in saying that there are many different measures. But when there are issues that are aimed at people, when there are, you know, when you've got voter ID laws, let's say, that are aimed specifically, as the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals said, at specific people who are marked by the color of their skin, why not get a person of that color to give you the feeling or the opinion behind it? And I think that's where diversity plays in because I think of it as a competitive advantage. I don't think of it as like a moral thing. In fact, I go diversity is great for your competition. It makes you better. It makes you think. That's what makes America great. I don't think it's any mistake that America has so much innovation because you're living in a society that is not homogeneous. You're living in a society that has so many

• 24:44Speaker 01

  different influences. So you have a Russian coming in to create Google, but from America because his mind comes from a Russian place, but then he is basically infected with the goodness that is in America in terms of just different ideas, you know? And that's what it is. In terms of diversity is you bring your experiences. I bring mine. We may combine those two things to come up with something that you alone and I alone could not have come up with.

• 25:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  So let me ask you this. It's been said by eggheads, whom I admire, that one of the best ingredients in a healthy civilization is social trust and social capital. And that in America, it's been quite on decline since the 1960s or so, as it has been in Britain. I'm just curious, you look at this country, if I tell you the fact that our social trust is relatively much lower than it used to be, and you've come in as an outsider, Tokvili Yin, in some ways, how would you think about repairing, uplifting social trust, keeping in mind, sorry, I left that one thing, keeping in mind that one of the biggest barriers to social trust is diversity. So diversity, which is great for economies and great for

• 25:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  the spirit, many would argue, and so on, it turns out that people tend to get less trusting when there are more people around them who don't look like them or go to the same church or whatnot. So

• 26:01Speaker 01

  That is fascinating.

• 26:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  What would you, I hate to put such a burden on you, but if you could change things.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  That's a, that's a tough one. I, the first thing I would have to look at then is, is there social trust in areas of America where there is less diversity? That's the first thing I would have to look at.

• 26:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  The short answer is yes.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  So there is.

• 26:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  But social trust in and of itself isn't so great. It can exist in a place.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  But that group could be hostile to everyone else. You know, ideally, you want social trust and diversity. What the scholars say is, well, you look at the institutions that do a good job of creating that between people who are different, universities, sports teams. I mean, you boxed, did you play team sports though?

• 26:42Speaker 01

  I did, I did.

• 26:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Is it maybe because in those institutions, you feel like you have a common goal and a common purpose? And maybe essentially, the people in this country don't feel like they have a common goal and a common purpose.

• 26:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  So if that were the case, and let's just say it is, and you could help define the common goal or purpose of America for the next five or 10 years, what would it be?

• 27:06Speaker 01

  This is the thing, I think it's more question. Over the next four years, America's going to have to answer the question, and that is, who is America? Is America the land of the free and the home of the brave? Is America that shining tower on a hill? Or is America The capitalistic, take as much as possible, burn as much fuel as possible, plunder where necessary in the world and oppress the weaker. Is that America? Or is America a little bit of both? And I think that is closer to where you, you know, once you get that answer, because oftentimes you see in the conversations that are had between people,

• 27:50Speaker 01

  that is still something that people don't agree on, is what America actually is.

• 27:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  But you said something earlier about America that I think most people would agree with is the diversity is what makes us different, what makes us innovative, right?

• 28:06Speaker 01

  And what makes it more difficult?

• 28:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, true, absolutely. But part of diversity means, you know, what they call heterogeneous preferences, right? People prefer different things. So what if America remains divided, the way we call it that? People, a lot of different people having a lot of different preferences, but finding a way to unite under a common goal. In other words, the long-term goal, the definition of what America is.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I will put it like this. On a smaller level, think of a music festival. Everyone can go to a music festival and have a really great time. All the people are there together because they are in the common goal, that they share a common goal, and that is to enjoy and appreciate music. Now, some people will go to the hip-hop stage. Some people will go to the rock stage. Others will go to the indie alternative stage. Some will go to all three.

• 28:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  What about the podcast stage?

• 28:51Speaker 01

  But it's a music festival. You're killing me here. But the point is, everybody at least has agreed that they are in this for music. They want to appreciate music. And that's why I say the larger thing still becomes within that, within that world. Yeah, you all want everything that is different. But what is the one common goal that you are striving for? You know, and so I feel like to a certain extent, maybe countries where they are good at doing that, you know, like Japan has a culture in and around that. Germany has a culture. I mean, they had it a bit too much, you know, a little bit of ubaalis. But the point is, everyone was aimed in the same direction. And I think that's where you start to realize, you know, how that can move you forward.

• 29:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  In 2015, Noah was chosen by Comedy Central to replace Jon Stewart when he stepped down as host of The Daily Show.

• 29:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you like your job now?

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love my job. It's challenging. It's extremely difficult.

• 29:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm told that you were a little bit surprised by just how exhaustive and exhausting it is, running the show editorially.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'll tell you this. Jon Stewart does not, he gets amazing credit, but one piece of credit, and I tell them all the time, is I go, "You are a genius. You're a genius, and you are one of the hardest working people I've ever come across, because this thing is a monster to move." It is, it is a mountain. Because it's one thing to make jokes every day, it's another thing to be in a world where you're making jokes, you're also trying to, you know, do research, you're trying to forge a point of view, you're trying to be truthful whilst at the same time getting across a feeling and connecting with an audience. There are many things happening at the same time. Oftentimes, I go, "Man, I wish we could just make jokes about nothing today." And I was like, "No."

• 30:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Your appointment as host was surprising to just about everyone, including you. We know that Jon Stewart's first choice was John Oliver to get him back, and that didn't work out. Did you feel in any way slightly less grateful that you weren't the first choice?

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Why? Why? Most of us are not the first choice in our lives. Most of the people who are married are married to someone because it's not their first choice.

• 31:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is that true?

• 31:06Speaker 01

  That is life.

• 31:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  You know that for a fact.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  I know that for a fact. I'm willing to put money down.

• 31:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Give me the data on that.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  I'm willing to put money down on that. Think of it like this: if Will Smith didn't turn down The Matrix, Keanu Reeves would have never made it. Like, that is, I always think that that's what life is, is it is somebody who turns something down, and then you get to pick it up and go, "Let me try this." You know? And I would have gone with John Oliver. I love John Oliver, till this day. John Oliver is one of the reasons that I was like, I would like to do the show. John Oliver was one of the people I looked up to, because before him, I had never seen a non-American doing anything like that. And it took him a good 10 years to get good at doing that. So I aspire to be as good as John Oliver. So I'm never, oh, no. No, no, that's something I'm never slated by because I if that was the case, you'd never be grateful for anything in life.

• 31:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  And circumstances being what they are, you've done well on the show and the ratings have improved. That said, it's easy for people to compare you at the beginning of your hitch here with Jon Stewart at the end, which is not a fair comparison, but the way, you know, time works.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's a natural thing to do. So talk for a minute about that. What pressures you are feeling, if any, from the network to improve ratings?

• 32:18Speaker 01

  I've been very lucky in that the network has always been supportive of us. And most importantly, because you must remember, we never lost ratings. We just never had the ratings of 16 year Jon Stewart, which in essence would be an insult to Jon Stewart, I always think. I go like, can you imagine if you come in from nowhere, nobody knows you, and the ratings are exactly the same?

• 32:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, it must have just been the time slot. It wasn't you at all, Jon.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Then you go like, oh, so what? So Jon didn't mean anything? I would hope that Jon leaving would change the ratings. And I would hope that that would then give me an opportunity to build up to something myself, to see some growth, to see what a base is and to go, okay, I can work up from here.

• 32:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  So let me just go back a little bit to you taking over for Jon and you being a very different person, very different thinker and so on. You presented and I think talked a little bit about the fact that you're not as angry a person or don't play that person so much. And I'm just curious whether the election of Trump has changed your kind of internal mandate for how to manage or dial up perhaps the anger.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Not necessarily, and I'll tell you why. And this is the thing that people make a mistake with because they they try and make it an either or. They go, oh, you're not as angry as Jon and you say you're not as angry.

• 33:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  But if you listen to what Jon said was, he said, I have become too angry. I have become tired of being angry. I can no longer do this. I understand that you want a comedy show, but I do not possess that. And he said to me, the show needs a host that still has that energy and still has the ability to find the comedy and use it as a tool to cut through everything that is that is presented to them. And so my anger happens in bursts.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  But I do not exist only as an angry person. And maybe it's because of the world I grew up in where anger and strategy had to be balanced. You know, in South Africa, we had many struggle leaders who were angry, but you had to learn when to let that anger come out. These are the things I've learned from some of the greatest leaders, just reading their autobiographies and their stories. I also learned this when I used to box. You know, I didn't box professionally, but as a boxer, you have to learn to calm down. You're trying to win. Your anger doesn't help you win. There are moments when you can use it to fuel what you're trying to do, but half of the time, it sends you into a blind rage.

• 34:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you think President Obama could have used a little more anger? Or do you think he played things generally well? And because obviously, he was frustrated and he expressed his frustration very eloquently for eight years. But he didn't pound on tables and so on.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  I think hindsight is 2020. I think everyone will know how Obama should have done it because it was never done before. And we won't have an example until maybe another black president does it again.

• 35:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  You interviewed President Obama in the White House shortly before he left office. So for a guy who grew up very poor in South Africa, that was obviously a very unlikely outcome that you'd end up in the White House. How do you process that?

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Wow, I can only be grateful. I sat with my friends afterwards and we just talked about it, you know, and, you know, one of my friends, Trayvon, who used to be a writer on The Daily Show, him and I were just chatting and he was like, do you understand how insane this is? You are the host of The Daily Show, he's the president, but you are both mixed race people who are both half African. You grew up under apartheid, he's now the president. Like the fact that you guys met, you know, unlikely, just in terms of odds and numbers.

• 35:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Even meeting anywhere, much less at the White House.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  At the White House, you interviewing him. I mean, it was.

• 35:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  And him telling you that you're the good looking one, by the way.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  You know, I will say that I resent how young and good-looking you are because I used to think of myself in those terms and it's been downhill for quite some time.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Look, I, you know, I think it's moments like that that I try to cherish as much as possible.

• 36:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's say I'm Donald Trump, you land me on your show.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  First question for me?

• 36:21Speaker 01

  First question for you, let me think. Landed you on the show, you've come in as president, are you president now probably?

• 36:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, let's say I'm president.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  You're probably president.

• 36:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's say it's January, you know, 23rd, on my very third day, I come to you, Trevor Noah, because I've heard that you are a really interesting thinker, a straight shooter, and that you look at things differently, as do I.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  I would probably say you really knew how to tap into almost everybody's anger and feelings of being left behind and sometimes even of hatred. How did you do that without getting swept up in it? Because you don't believe most of those things.

• 37:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, what makes you think, though, that I wouldn't hear the beginning of that and say, "You did well at tapping into the anger"? Wouldn't my response naturally then be, "Well, that's an accusation"? It wasn't anger.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Oh, no, Donald Trump doesn't think like that. No, no, no, no, you're going too deep now, no.

• 37:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, so what would my reply be then? Now you have to be Trump and I'll be you for a moment.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  What would Trump say to that?

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Trump will go, he'll probably say, "I traveled around the country, met a lot of people, fantastic people, tremendous people, tremendous people, you know, a lot of angry people, I heard what they said, and, you know, these people, they want to change, and we're gonna, you know, that's what we're gonna do, we're gonna make America great again, we're gonna make America great again."

• 37:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  What do you think of Trump?

• 37:48Speaker 01

  I think Donald Trump is playing a character in a reality show and he doesn't take it as seriously as everyone else does. That's what I genuinely think.

• 37:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Therefore, the outcome will be poor? Or therefore, the outcome will be, it's hard to say because we've never seen it before?

• 38:03Speaker 01

  It's hard to say because we've never seen it. I have never seen this before. Normally, the show ends when the person wins the prize. Now, now it's, you know, it's the beginning of the journey.

• 38:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  In case you are still undecided on Trevor Noah, and you want to know more about where he stands on the pressing issues of the day, well, consider his views on this podcast.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  I have studied this for a very long time, and I've come to the conclusion that people who refuse to listen to Freakonomics Radio are unfortunately doomed to be labeled as idiots. Now, this is something we can all change, but it's all up to you.

• 38:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  So congratulations, dear listener. You have proven that you are not an idiot. Why don't you help your friends and family escape idiocy, too, by telling them to listen and do the other nice things to support our show? You can subscribe on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. You can write a review or leave a rating. And of course, check out our next episode. If Trevor Noah is an example of the American dream writ small, what about the big picture? We speak with the award-winning economist Raj Chetty about the state of the American dream. You're twice as likely to realize the American dream if you're growing up in Canada rather than the US.

• 39:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's next time on Freakonomics Radio.

• 39:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by WNYC Studios and Dubner Productions. This episode was produced by Shelley Lewis. Our staff also includes Christopher Wirth, Merritt Jacob, Greg Rosalsky, Stephanie Tam, Eliza Lambert, Alison Hockenberry, Emma Morgenstern, Harry Huggins, and Brian Gutierrez. You can and should subscribe to this podcast. You can also come to Freakonomics.com and find our entire podcast archive, which includes a transcript for every episode we've ever made, as well as music credits and much more. Thanks for listening.

• 40:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by EverPure. Is the value of AI not living up to the promise? The problem is probably your data, not your AI models. When it's scattered across different systems, getting your data AI-ready is a challenge. You keep your AI waiting and everything slows down. EverPure unifies your data so you can see it, understand it, and control it all from one simple place and get it AI-ready fast. Unlock the true value of your AI at everpuredata.com.

• 40:48Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 41:19Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 41:57Speaker 05

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