222. Meet the Woman Who Said Women Can’t Have It All

Anne-Marie Slaughter was best known for her adamant views on Syria when she accidentally became a poster girl for modern feminism. As it turns out, she can be pretty adamant in that realm as well.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. The best investments are the ones you make in yourself, and no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. With more than 200 online degree programs, no set class times, and low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University is built to fit your life today and set you up for success tomorrow. Education is an investment. Why not make it a smart one? Apply for free at SNHU.edu/freakonomics. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds because switching your home and auto insurance is better than

• 0:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  cutting down on the things you love, like those iced lattes that help you get ready to face the day. So switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it, which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example?

• 1:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, PNC Bank did since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely not YOLO type. PNC Bank. Brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by ChatGPT. ChatGPT work is a new way to work in ChatGPT. ChatGPT work can pull info from across your apps and connect to your tools to help you create finished work.

• 2:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  You can even automate work in ChatGPT with the scheduled tasks feature, and the whole time, you stay in control. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

• 2:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Before we get on with this week's episode, let's follow up with something from last week. That episode was called "How Did the Belt Win?" We asked why so many people wear belts, even though they don't do such a great job of holding up pants. Here's how that episode ended.

• 2:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Our working headline for this episode was, "Belts Are Stupid." Out of respect for belt lovers, we ended up toning it down. But I'm not willing to let go of the sentiment. And I'm curious to know what else you think is, on some level, stupid. What's something you counter or use or think about all the time that could really use a makeover?

• 3:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Our email inbox quickly filled up with your stupid suggestions. The address is [email protected], by the way. There were so many good ideas about stupid things that I'm sure we'll turn at least a few of them into future episodes. But in the meantime, I just wanted to share some of the things that Freakonomics Radio listeners think should be put to death or at least made over. The most popular suggestion was umbrellas, on the grounds that they don't work very well, break too easily, and are a menace to other people. Several of you also suggested that bicycle tires are overdue for improvement. Also, the toilet, toilet paper in favor of the bidet, and the toilet paper holder, because it's over-engineered. Quite a few of you think that our procedure

• 4:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  for boarding airplanes is idiotic. Others feel the same way about democracy, especially the electoral process. Many of you critiqued the standard classroom model of education. By the way, we've talked about that a lot on this podcast. You might want to start with an episode called, "How Is a Bad Radio Station Like the Public School System?" One emailer suggested that what we really need to make over is the brasserie. And I thought, really? I think brasseries are kind of perfect. The steak frite, the salad niçoirs. And then I reread the email. It's the brassiere that needs the makeover. Indeed, there were many calls for a new, better bra. Also, the smartphone keyboard and the QWERTY keyboard, the TV remote and cable companies

• 4:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  themselves, also the US Postal Service. There were quite a few emails about everyday activities that are very resource intensive, maintaining lawns, for instance, and washing and drying clothes all the time. A listener named Amanda Hall had a fascinating suggestion. Eyewitness testimony should be eliminated from the legal system. Why is it considered at all credible? She wrote, "Human memory is notoriously awful, malleable, and colored by personal bias. Couple that with the incentive to deliberately misrepresent the facts, and testimony seems to do more harm than good in the search for truth and justice."

• 5:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  And Rich Speakman of Yuba City, California nominates birthday cake for elimination. "I may only be 33," he writes, "but I've been to enough birthdays to realize that no one really eats it. Most adults say no thank you. Even kids hardly touch the cake. Birthday cake is stupid, a waste of money, and not even all that tasty. I vote for birthday pie instead." Thanks to Rich, Amanda, and all of you who took the time to look for the stupid in your lives. And now, moving on to this week's show.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Noted American feminist Anne-Marie Slaughter.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Anne-Marie Slaughter.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Created a storm.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  An extraordinary reaction. A lot of pushback, a lot of enthusiastic support as well.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  Why women still can't have it all is causing quite the debate. Can women really have it all when it comes to career and to family? Why women still can't have it all?

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Her article, published in The Atlantic Monthly, started a conversation that continues still to this very day.

• 6:29Speaker 04

  You know, it was misunderstood. I'm still introduced as, this is Anne-Marie Slaughter, the woman who says women can't have it all.

• 6:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  In July of 2012, Anne-Marie Slaughter wrote an essay for The Atlantic called "Why Women Still Can't Have It All." The subtitle read, "It's time to stop fooling ourselves," says a woman who left a position of power. "The women who have managed to be both mothers and top professionals are superhuman, rich, or self-employed. If we truly believe in equal opportunity for all women, here's what has to change." It quickly became one of the most widely-read articles, most widely-dissected articles, in The Atlantic's more than 150-year history.

• 7:15Speaker 04

  It was overwhelming. It really was overwhelming. It was like a tsunami. And I'm on the front page of The New York Times juxtaposed against Sheryl Sandberg. My mother calls up and says, "What have you done?"

• 7:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Part of the issue was that Slaughter herself is sort of superhuman, or at least a very high achiever, also pretty rich, at least in relation to the rest of the world's women. But she was definitely not self-employed. She worked in the US State Department in Washington, under Secretary Hillary Clinton, until she quit that job, her dream job, because her family needed her. And then, she wrote about it.

• 7:54Speaker 04

  I was suddenly a public figure, you know, with my views being distorted, with all sorts of people writing very unpleasant things, but with lots of people saying wonderful things. And it really changed my life.

• 8:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  Up to that point, Slaughter was a highly-regarded, if not highly-visible, academic and foreign policy wonk. If she got a media request, it was to talk about her views on the Middle East, the revolution in Libya, or the war in Syria. But overnight, her more than 30 years as a foreign policy scholar were trumped by this one article about work-life balance.

• 8:27Speaker 04

  And to this day, I'm better known for that than anything I've done in foreign policy. And it created a new set of opportunities, but it also created a new set of obligations, where I felt like, well, now I have to continue this conversation. I can't just walk away from it.

• 8:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  So today on Freakonomics Radio, we continue that conversation. We hear why not everyone believed her reason for leaving the State Department.

• 8:58Speaker 04

  In Washington, if you say you're leaving to spend time with your family, it's a euphemism for being fired.

• 9:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  We talk about her early warnings on Syria and what she'd suggest if she had the White House's ear today.

• 9:09Speaker 04

  I think the White House is tired of hearing me on Syria, but there are two things that we can do.

• 9:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  And we hit her with a few of our frequently asked questions, the really hard ones.

• 9:20Speaker 04

  Let me think for a second.

• 9:31Speaker 05

  From WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 9:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Anne Marie Slaughter's resume is beyond impressive.

• 9:51Speaker 04

  I am currently the president and CEO of New America, which is a think tank and a civic enterprise that focuses on trying to solve America's problems in the digital age. And I have been, for much of my life, a professor, a law professor originally at Chicago and Harvard, and then a dean of the Woodrow Wilson School at Princeton. And then I was director of policy planning from 2009 to 2011 at the State Department under Hillary Clinton.

• 10:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'd love you to just describe that job. I assume it's a position that had been around. If not, let us know. And what was your actual portfolio there?

• 10:32Speaker 04

  Yes, so it is one of the great foreign policy jobs. It was a job that was created by George Marshall for George Kennan. And you can't get a better diplomatic pedigree than that.

• 10:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 10:43Speaker 04

  And George Kennan then created the Marshall Plan.

• 10:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Meaning if you had done something similar, it would have been the Clinton Plan.

• 10:51Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 10:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Correct? Yeah, and not the Slaughter Plan. Okay, just to clarify.

• 10:54Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 10:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right, sorry. Proceed.

• 10:56Speaker 04

  No, I mean, what you are, you... You're really running the State Department's internal think tank. I mean, what it is are the longer-term thinkers at the State Department for whatever the Secretary of State wants. When I was there, Secretary Clinton wanted a massive review of our diplomacy and our development to think about how we could shift our foreign policy to include more development. And it was a huge report. I worked on it for 18 months. But we did everything else, too. So my portfolio included everything Secretary Clinton was working on or wanted us to work on.

• 11:35Speaker 04

  And that extended from running the annual strategic dialogue with China to working on different parts of sanctions in the Middle East, to thinking about Latin America. And we report directly to the Secretary. So it is a really wonderful job.

• 11:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  Slaughter took the job with a reputation for arguing that American values are not only part of a national identity, but a strategy.

• 12:05Speaker 04

  And that means I have taken a strong stand on things like intervening in Libya, where I thought we had to prevent a massacre, where I've been incredibly strong on taking action in Syria because it was predictable that the country was coming apart in what is now the greatest humanitarian disaster of our time. There are people who see me as, they call me a liberal hawk. I don't agree with that. I am a liberal. But I would say I focus on people, I focus on American values. And I'm a realist in terms of the things we can't do, but I am definitely somebody

• 12:47Speaker 04

  who stands for doing what we think is right in the world.

• 12:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  And how that should be done is informed by Slaughter's academic work.

• 12:55Speaker 04

  As a scholar, I'm known for...

• 13:00Speaker 04

  Really thinking hard about what it's like to try to solve problems in a networked world. I've been studying networks since the mid 1990s and did a great deal of work on, you know, how central bankers network with each other or justice ministers. How do we basically come together and solve problems in an intensely interconnected world when a lot of the institutions that we created after World War II are just not good enough?

• 13:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  When I hear that, it very much resonates with me. I can imagine other people hearing that, however, and saying, wait a minute, what's the difference between a network and a cabal?

• 13:42Speaker 04

  Well, so, yes. You know, the positive way of thinking about this is government officials of all kinds, from central bankers to justice ministers to environment ministers to judges, are talking to each other and trying to solve problems that are affecting all of our nations. And that's a good thing because the UN's just not enough or the IMF is not enough. The flip side is that looks like a cabal, that looks like global technocracy, right? That looks like the elites meeting in secret places and making decisions. And both of those things are right. They are great potential tools, but the people who are getting left out of those networks are the citizens, right?

• 14:25Speaker 04

  So, within the country, we have ways of checking our central banker. But when our central banker meets with other central bankers, that's much harder to do. So, part of my work has been to say, this is a fact. It can be used for good, but we need to make a lot of changes if that's the way we're going to, in part, govern the world to make sure citizens' voices are heard.

• 14:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  When Slauder and I spoke in the middle of September, the Syrian war and refugee situation were on the front page of just about every newspaper. She was an early advocate of American intervention in Syria and made her position known on a variety of news programs.

• 15:02Speaker 04

  Are we going to do nothing? Really, nothing? It is possible to have a no-fly zone or to have safe zones. What we need, first of all, is to just end the killing. The next thing we could do is we could take out their air force.

• 15:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's it like for you to be sitting here, to have wanted to intervene much more directly in Syria, not been part of a team that took that direction, and seeing the aftermath?

• 15:25Speaker 04

  Intensely frustrating. It is just agonizing to see the paper every day because this was so completely predictable. And it has been predictable, you know, we've got a government that's been using chemical weapons, that's been dropping barrel bombs on its people. Now what's happening is even the Syrian government supporters are fleeing. But this goes to a point that I have made over and over and over again, that the divide between strategic interests and humanitarian interests is a false one, that you could see that where a country's population is, you know, being driven out of their homes

• 16:07Speaker 04

  and being massacred by their governments, sooner or later, very bad things will happen. Extremists will move in and people will move out. And then that becomes a national security interest. And that's what we're seeing right now. But it was predictable and we could have done something to stop it and we didn't. And now the problem is so much worse.

• 16:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Considering what has happened and considering where we stand today, let's say you were back in the State Department, let's say you're Secretary of State today, what do you do? What is it not too late to do, assuming that the White House is susceptible to your suggestions and maybe even have some leverage?

• 16:49Speaker 04

  Well, I think the White House is tired of hearing me on Syria, but there are two things that we can do. It is still not too late to create a no-fly zone on the Turkish border, possibly the Jordanian border. Creating a no-fly zone basically says to the Syrian government, you have to stop dropping barrel bombs on your people. And if you, you know, use helicopters or fixed-wing aircraft to do that, we will take them out. And we can do that from ships. So we're not even talking about risking American planes. We need to do that because there has to be some safe place for Syrians within the country to go. There is no safe place in Syria.

• 17:32Speaker 04

  We have to do, and not just we, the The United States, we and Turkey and other states in Europe and in the region collectively have got to create safe space within Syria, or we will continue to see people flee Syria. The second thing, and this is what we're trying to do, is ultimately the only solution is to reach a political compromise in Syria that will end the civil war. And that requires Russia and Iran and Turkey and Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Lebanon and European countries sitting around a table and brokering a political solution. We have been trying to do that for a long time.

• 18:14Speaker 04

  I argue that unless you make clear to Assad that you are prepared to use force, at least to stop him from massacring his own people, he will not come to the table. So I think these two things are connected. But this is just going to get worse and worse and worse unless we can find a way to create a political solution. And then we still have to fight ISIL. So that's just a piece of the larger puzzle.

• 18:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  A lot of your emails to and from your boss, your then boss Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, have been released lately, in the big release.

• 18:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 18:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm curious what, we've gone through them, we can't find anything remotely salacious from you, I have to say. I was a little bit disappointed. You seem to be quite an upstanding citizen. But what's the experience been like for you to see your work correspondences become public in a way that you perhaps hadn't intended?

• 19:03Speaker 04

  Well, you know, I have to say, I haven't gone through all of them. I've seen some of them. You know, I clearly did write, thinking I was writing only to her, but I would say in general that I'm not upset at having my correspondence public. I mean, I don't think it's a good idea as a general matter. I mean, you know, any government official depends on being able to receive advice from people. And if you're constantly worrying that it's going to be made public, what will happen is, you know, you'll trim your sails. In the end, you'll get, she'll get less advice because you will only give her advice when you can talk to her, and you're not talking to her as often as you can write to her.

• 19:48Speaker 04

  So I don't think it's a good public policy to publish all of this. But my, I'm willing to stand by anything I wrote and to explain that, you know, I knew she was getting lots of other advice and that I, often I felt like, you know, you should hear this point of view.

• 20:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'd love to read you part of one of your emails to Secretary Clinton, just because it's interesting about the relationship between state and the White House. And I'm curious to know, maybe some further thinking from you and maybe some forward thinking from you on what you think the relationship should be between those two. You wrote to Secretary Clinton, "You did a great job on Meet the Press. The only thing I would add is when they ask you about the relationship between you and the White House, you can say not only that you are the diplomat in chief and the implementer, but also the architect of the strategies we need actually to achieve the objectives and the visions that the president lays out." So talk to me about why, I mean presumably she's the Secretary of State, she knows this.

• 20:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  What were you trying to communicate either just below the lines or maybe way below the lines there?

• 20:54Speaker 04

  Well, this is something I've thought a lot about. As the National Security Council expands, the State Department consistently, and USAID and the Pentagon, the other agencies really are constantly trying to make sure they still play the role they're supposed to play, which is the president sets the direction, right? He's, George W. Bush, he's the decider. So on Syria, a good example, I may really disagree with his decision, but he gets to call the shots. But if he says, "Okay, here's what we want to accomplish

• 21:34Speaker 04

  in Syria. You know, we want to do everything we can to protect the Syrian people and to protect our interests in the region. And we want to do that by engaging Iran or, you know, working with Turkey," he ought to be setting policy at that level. And then the State Department, because the State Department is the place that has the expertise, and of course, the people, the national security staff is really small, the State Department is big, then the Secretary of State should then say, "Okay, how are we going to accomplish what the president wants us to do?" So when I said that- She could say she's the architect of the strategy.

• 22:17Speaker 04

  It's we should be the place that is then creating the strategy to accomplish what the White House wants us to do. And of course, you know, the National Security Council should be involved in that, but they shouldn't be actually creating the strategy. They don't have the bandwidth, they don't have the expertise, and they don't have the depth.

• 22:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you think it's also part of this general philosophy of the American presidency, and not all presidencies are like this, to create the appearance that, you know, all power runs through the president? You know, we are kind of devoutly anti-technocratic in this country. We don't like to present the image that there's a department that does this and a department that does that, and the president kind of, you know, has a hand in it. We tend to prefer the image of the great man theory of history with the one all-powerful, you know, Wizard of Oz guy or gal there. Do you think that's part of the issue, or is it more just a typical political leverage issue? Or neither?

• 23:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's interesting. I think it's just, you know, once you've created a White House bureaucracy, because that's what you're talking about, the old executive office building is the White House bureaucracy. Inevitably, power starts to flow to the center. And I think it's very bad for American government because you actually are disempowering the very people who have the expertise and who engage with Congress. Remember, you know, all those departments are the ones that engage with Congress on a daily basis, so the American people are represented.

• 23:55Speaker 04

  But I think it's just, once you start creating a staff, inevitably, they think, well, you know, we want to do it. And then the president thinks, well, I want to control it. But the real problem is the president and even the National Security Council staff and the National Economic Council staff, given the complexity and the enormous range of issues, they cannot replicate the government.

• 24:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up on Freakonomics Radio, why Anne-Marie Slaughter left one of the great foreign policy jobs after just two years.

• 24:31Speaker 04

  Our elder son was making some bad choices, really bad choices, and he was in middle school.

• 24:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Also, in order for women to have it all, do men need to be resocialized?

• 24:42Speaker 04

  I think I prefer expand choices and roles to resocialize, which does sound vaguely Orwellian.

• 24:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  And apropos of nothing, if you happen to be a soccer fan and are looking for a new club to support, maybe a low-tier Sunday League club in England, well, we've got just the club for you. Freakonomics Radio is now a proud sponsor of Dun Cow Football Club in Shrewsbury, England. You can find them on Twitter at Dun Cow FC, proudly wearing their Freakonomics Radio kits. And the Cow, as they're known, have begun the season with three wins against just one loss.

• 25:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Granola. You know that moment when a meeting ends and someone says, let's circle back on this next week, and everyone nods, but no one writes it down? Then next week rolls around and it's radio silence? That's why Granola exists. Granola is an AI-powered notepad built for the way real people actually meet. You take rough notes like you normally would, and in the background, Granola securely transcribes the meeting. Then it turns everything into clean, structured, actually useful notes when the meeting ends. And the best part? Granola works through your device's audio, which means it integrates seamlessly into the video conferencing tools you already use. No setup, no awkward bots. It's just your normal meeting with superpowers. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free.

• 26:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Just head to granola.ai/freakonomics. That's granola.ai/freakonomics to get your time back. Try it for free at granola.ai/freakonomics.

• 26:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Quince. You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat? The sweater that goes with everything? The perfect pair of pants? Or the tee you somehow always reach for first? Those are the pieces that make getting dressed easy, and that's what Quince does best. Quince focuses on high-quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and merino wool. The styles are timeless, versatile, and designed to become the dependable pieces you reach for day after day. And it's not just clothing. Quince brings that same approach to everything they make, from hotel-quality bedding and bath to kitchen essentials and thoughtfully designed furniture. Find your next fall favorites at Quince.

• 27:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com/freak. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash freak. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example?

• 27:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, PNC Bank did since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely-not-YOLO type. PNC Bank: brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly Boring Since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC.

• 28:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  After two years as Director of Policy Planning in the US State Department, Anne Marie Slaughter announced that she'd be returning to Princeton.

• 28:40Speaker 04

  I had succeeded in my job and I was, I could have been a candidate for promotion. I don't know if I would have gotten a higher job, but Secretary Clinton had made clear, I could put myself up for promotion. So the decision I made was, I can stay here and try to get an even higher job and this is something I've wanted all my life, or I can go back to being a professor. And I would not have done that if I didn't have children at home. I would have stayed in Washington.

• 29:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's just take one minute and set the stage. Your family had been living in Princeton.

• 29:14Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 29:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  You'd moved down to DC for the job and you were commuting back on weekends essentially?

• 29:19Speaker 04

  Yes, yes. I was leaving at 5:00 AM every Monday morning and I was coming home sometime late on Friday. And so I was only home on Saturday and Sunday. And my husband, who is a professor at Princeton, was being the lead parent, the only parent at home during the week. But our elder son was making some bad choices, really bad choices. And he was in middle school.

• 29:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  He wasn't doing his homework. He was failing math, being disruptive in class. By eighth grade, he was suspended from school. He'd even been picked up by the local police.

• 29:54Speaker 04

  And I realized that I just needed to go home, that I didn't know that going home was going to turn everything around. My husband had been doing his best and this was a real challenge, but I felt like he needed all hands on deck.

• 30:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did it turn everything around? How much did your coming home change the situation with your son, your family?

• 30:15Speaker 04

  Well, so this is an interesting question. So my son, I am happy to report, just started college last weekend at Northwestern University.

• 30:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Congratulations.

• 30:23Speaker 04

  Yes. We are thrilled and he's thrilled. So he's in a great place. I do not want to say, "I came home and everything was great." I mean, that is just not fair to my husband and I don't think it's true. What I will say is, I think it definitely made a difference. I think it was important to my son to know that I was willing to put him first. But I can't say that he might not have kind of... You know, grown out of that phase. Plenty of teenagers go through that phase and they grow out of it. I know that it was the right choice for me and for my family. And, and I think my son is happy about it, although there is, at some point, about a year after I'd come home, he was reading about Syria and he turned to me and he said,

• 31:06Speaker 04

  "Mom, if you'd stayed in the State Department, could you have fixed Syria or could you have saved Syria?" And I said, "No." You know, like, "No, it's not that simple."

• 31:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, you told him that because it was true or you told him that because you didn't want him to feel guilty?

• 31:20Speaker 04

  I told him that because it was true.

• 31:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  The Atlantic essay that Slaughter wrote about her dilemma produced a vigorous response. Some people thanked her for pointing out what should be obvious, that when it comes to family obligations, we expect more of professional women than professional men. But some people thought that she was a traitor to the feminist cause, that if a woman as well-credentialed and well-situated as Anne-Marie Slaughter had to put aside her dream career, what did that mean for the average working-class woman? And that was just the public response. It was what she heard from people she knew that really surprised her.

• 31:57Speaker 04

  What they thought depended on what I said, and this is really what I learned. Because if I said to people, "My two-year public service leave was up and I came back because otherwise I'd lose my tenure," people were fine with that. Larry Summers did that, right? Lots, I mean, giving up tenure at an Ivy League university, you know, most people understand why you wouldn't want to do that. So if I said that, there was no problem. Everybody was like, "Great, you know, you had a great job in government and, and you've, you know, served and now you're back in a, in a great job." But I deliberately said to people, as part of my overall philosophy, which I had when

• 32:37Speaker 04

  I was a dean and I had in the government, if I said, "I came home, you know, my leave was up and, you know, I have two teenagers at home and I, I didn't want to miss, you know, their time at home and it was important for me to be here now," I got a very different reaction. And that was fairly shocking to me. And I deliberately would raise that because I, all my life, I've believed... You know, I'm a foreign policy professional. I'm an academic. I'm a scholar. I was a dean. And I'm a mother and a wife and a daughter. And that part of my life is just as important. So I would deliberately say this.

• 33:19Speaker 04

  I would just say, you know, my kids were a huge part of the reason I decided to come home. And when I said that, I would get a very different reaction. And I would get a kind of either, what a pity, which was like the opposite of what I was trying to say, which was, no, this is a very important choice. I'm also a mother. Or I would get a kind of, I could see this kind of reassessment, like, whoa, I guess, you know, either they didn't believe me and they thought I hadn't, I must not have succeeded, which is, I say, you know, in Washington, if you say you're leaving to spend time with your family, it's a euphemism for being fired. So you could see people thinking, hmm, maybe she didn't do so well.

• 34:01Speaker 04

  Or you could see people just thinking, she must not really be, you know, a player. She must not be the person I thought she was, because if she was, she clearly would still be in DC. You know, because you couldn't come back and really legitimately make this choice to be back because your children need you, or you want to be with your children, even if they don't need you.

• 34:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Slaughter had written several foreign policy books, including The Idea That Is America and A New World Order. But now she set out to write a very different kind of book. It's called Unfinished Business, published just this week. It's a call for making the workplace a truly equitable opportunity for women and men. The book grew directly out of the Atlantic piece.

• 34:47Speaker 04

  The book is about, okay, we're stuck. I mean, it's unfinished business, women, men, work, family. And the unfinished business is the unfinished business of the movement for full equality between men and women. And, you know, in a nutshell, what I'm arguing is that if we're going to get to real equality between men and women, we have to focus less on women and more on elevating the value of care and expanding the choices and roles for men.

• 35:24Speaker 04

  And that's sort of counterintuitive, right? Because what we've been doing is we measure our progress in the women's movement by how many women CEOs we have, women leaders of all kinds, women politicians. And I'm all for having more women in high places. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for it. We need it. But that metric and that focus is not going to get us there because it's leaving a huge number of women out, all the women at the bottom. And it's assuming that you can get to equality between men and women by changing women's roles, but not changing men's roles.

• 36:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. The phrase you use is that we need to resocialize men, which as a man, sounds vaguely threatening, but not really. But you write about it, not only adult men who are in the workforce and, you know, maybe those CEOs we're talking about, but also young men, boys.

• 36:25Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 36:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  And how they should think about the future work world and the future family world as well. So talk for a minute, just talk to the men for a minute. So this show, this program is probably, I'm guessing now, roughly 70% male listeners. So this is a great platform to say, you know, what are some of the kind of basic signposts that we need to rearrange or get rid of, or maybe the new ones we need to have written?

• 36:53Speaker 04

  That's great. So let me start by saying how I got to this realization that we have to, I think I prefer expand choices and roles to resocialize, which does sound vaguely Orwellian. So here's what I realized. I looked at my, I have two sons. And I looked at my sons and I thought, you know, if I'd had a daughter... We'd be raising her 100% differently than the way my mother was raised. And even differently than I was raised, although my father was very progressive and he raised me to have a career. But if I looked at my sons, I thought, you know, I'm raising my sons pretty much exactly the way my father was raised. I mean, we're raising them to have a more active role as fathers. You know, my father never changed a diaper.

• 37:35Speaker 04

  Certainly, my husband changed plenty, and I expect my sons to. But we're still saying to men, your worth in society is a function of your breadwinning. It's a function of how much money you can make and how high you can rise in your career. And that is a very limited set of choices. It's the flip side of saying to women, when my mother was raised, you know, your worth in society depends on can you get married and can you have children? And my point is, all of us should have access to both. As a woman, I absolutely want to be able to compete. I want to have a career that's been fabulous. But I sure don't want to do that at the expense of also being a mother and a wife and a sister and a daughter.

• 38:19Speaker 04

  And so, to men, what I now say to my sons is, you know, if you believe in equality and you marry a woman, or a man, whatever, whoever, and you believe that you're going to support that woman's career, then it may require you being the lead parent and your spouse to be the lead breadwinner. And that's been the situation in our marriage. And they understand that I couldn't have a big career unless Andy played that role. So that's the place where I'm really saying to men, you know, if you believe in equality,

• 39:01Speaker 04

  it can't be, okay, I believe in equality, but I'm going to take every promotion I get and, you know, if you get a promotion, I'm not going to move for you.

• 39:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  In the book, you acknowledge the criticism that this work-life balance conversation often becomes kind of an upper-class conversation. And you acknowledge that, look, you're from, you have an elite... Position currently, you grew up in very comfortable circumstances. You had great schooling, you had great educational and job opportunities, and you've taken advantage of them. You've worked hard. I don't mean to disparage them at all. But how can someone, very much on the other end of the, let's call it the opportunity spectrum, and let's say it's a single mom, how can that population think about this issue divorced from, you know, all the trappings of privilege?

• 39:50Speaker 04

  I talk about the competitive mystique, or the bias against people who are giving care. It hurts women at the top if they take time out, or work part-time, or stop working. It hurts them, it hurts their career. It hurts women at the bottom so much more. Because a single mom, whose child is sick, can lose her job because she doesn't have paid sick days. So, the fact that we don't accommodate care, and the fact, more importantly, that we don't provide affordable, quality daycare for her to put her children in, or early education,

• 40:31Speaker 04

  or after-school programs, or paid maternity leave, all of that means that the woman at the bottom, single moms are the poorest people in our society. So, I point out that we have too few women at the top, but we have far too many women at the bottom. And if you focus on care, you can find solutions that help the women at the bottom as much as the women at the top. And that's what the women's movement has to be about. When it started, it was about all women. And now, it is far too much only about elite women.

• 41:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  It was time to move on to a few of our frequently asked questions, the same questions we've asked of people like Nate Silver. One of the most profound lessons to me about adulthood is that everyone's kind of weird. And, more recently, Drew Gilpin Faust, the president of Harvard.

• 41:29Speaker 06

  I would like to go to the period that I've written about and see, did I get it right? Did I get it wrong?

• 41:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Who was, I kind of have a feeling I may know the answer to this question already, but I may be wrong. Who was the best boss you ever had and why?

• 41:48Speaker 04

  Oh goodness. All right, there are two.

• 41:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  I put you in a position, didn't I?

• 41:52Speaker 04

  You did, you did.

• 41:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  I put you in a little bit of a position.

• 41:54Speaker 04

  So Shirley Tillman and Hillary Clinton both. And they both taught me different things, but Shirley Tillman was president of Princeton. She was just a phenomenal female leader, first woman president of Princeton. And Secretary Clinton was somebody I learned from every day.

• 42:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's the best possible future discovery or invention? Might be medical, might be political-ish, might be financial, I don't know.

• 42:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, let me think for a second.

• 42:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  I can whistle the Jeopardy music if you'd like.

• 42:25Speaker 04

  Well, you know, honestly, the single best invention I can think of right now that would make the biggest difference in the world would be rapid and cheap desalinization. Because water crises are one of the biggest threats we face, not only for climate, but also for security, for the quality of life. If we don't have clean, cheap water, all sorts of bad things happen. So it's less important maybe for the United States, although the folks in California are thinking about this, but globally, that would make a huge difference. We can do it, but we can't do it cheaply and efficiently and universally.

• 43:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's a good answer, and it actually may be the answer to the next question as well. What will eventually lead, this is obviously speculative and just your opinion, but what will eventually lead to humankind's demise?

• 43:20Speaker 04

  So I think I am more worried about...

• 43:30Speaker 04

  Disease and pandemic than I am wars. Although they're connected because bioweapons could do us in, right? And we could, we could, well, somebody invents a pathogen that cannot be cured, or they think they can control it, and it goes out of control. Or naturally, like Ebola, if you imagine Ebola and think that it could have been communicated by aerosol, so anybody on a plane who's breathing it, every time you get on a plane, many of us get colds because we're sitting next to people who have, you know, cold virus. If that's a lethal virus, like a bird flu that could kill you, given how fast that

• 44:13Speaker 04

  could spread, that could effectively certainly decimate us, if not wipe us out completely.

• 44:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  You know, as much as that's a horrifying thought, I'm kind of glad to hear you particularly give that answer as opposed to envisioning the war. Because you know the scenarios of the wars as well.

• 44:31Speaker 04

  I do, I do. Actually, we've gotten safer on wars, we really have.

• 44:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  So I am weirdly mildly comforted by your horror story, so thank you for that.

• 44:41Speaker 04

  Oh, good.

• 44:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  And finally, this is a, this is a question just for you. Let's pretend for a moment that Hillary Clinton is elected president in 2016. What are the odds that you are back in DC with a government job? And what would, what job would you like? I mean, would you want to be Secretary of State? I can't imagine that. Wouldn't be a blast.

• 45:01Speaker 04

  So I've been in Washington far too long to answer that question. I mean, I have made no secret of the fact that, you know, I love foreign policy and I'm committed to foreign policy, but there are so many imponderables, partly on the home front and partly in terms of the organization I run. You know, I would say I would love to be in a high foreign policy position again at some point in my life, but I'm not, I'm not expecting or anticipating any immediate changes.

• 45:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right, we'll just have to keep our eye on you then.

• 45:34Speaker 04

  Well, I've enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.

• 45:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up on the next Freakonomics Radio, imagine you're a kid who grows up to become a professional athlete, and now your mom thinks she's entitled to a share of your new riches. She just said I owe her a million dollars. And, you know, because I had you, I raised you.

• 45:59Speaker 07

  It shocks us because parents and children are not supposed to have a contractual obligation, like if it were any other kind of business.

• 46:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  But who says we're not supposed to have an obligation? Maybe kids should pay back their parents for raising them, or at least commit themselves to taking care of their aging parents. I asked my kids if they'd make that commitment. At this point, I'd definitely be asked. At this point? Jeez, thanks a lot, son. That's next time on Freakonomics Radio.

• 46:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by WNYC and Dubner Productions. Today's episode was produced by Erva Gunja and Greg Rosalsky. Our staff also includes Christopher Wirth, Jay Kowat, Merritt Jacob, Kasia Mihailovich, Caroline English, and Alison Hockenberry. Starting this fall, you can hear Freakonomics Radio on public radio stations across the country. Make sure your station will be carrying it. And if you really want even more Freakonomics, the books, the blog, side projects, et cetera, come see us at Freakonomics.com. You can also find us on Twitter and Facebook. And if you subscribe to this podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, we'll deliver the next episode in your sleep.

• 47:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Not in a creepy way, but in a nice podcast tooth fairy kind of way. Sweet dreams.

• 47:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Ozempic. Innovation happens through rethinking what's possible. And when it comes to GLP-1s, Ozempic pill does just that. Learn more about Ozempic semaglutide tablets, 4 and 9mg, by calling 1-833-OZEMPIC or visit Ozempic.com to view the medication guide and ask your doctor what's possible with FDA-approved Ozempic pill.

• 48:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern Company. The world and its energy needs are always changing. Southern Company's commitment to meeting this demand stays the same. That's because Southern Company believes energy is more than a utility. It's what powers possibilities. So they are looking ahead and investing $80 billion in infrastructure upgrades and are committed to fueling growth in ways that benefit all customers so that reliable and affordable energy is accessible for generations to come. Go to southerncompany.com to learn more. Southern Company, building the future of energy.

• 48:45Speaker 08

  Football season is here and the Fantasy Footballers are back to help you dominate your league. And this season, we're bringing you five episodes every week. That's more starts, more sits, more waiver wire wins, and more trades. From draft day all the way to your fantasy championship, we've got the rankings, the matchups, the news, and the advice you need to win. The Fantasy Footballers podcast, five episodes a week all season long. Watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 49:14Speaker 09

  This episode is brought to you by Charles Schwab. Is there a right time to sell a stock? Are you taking the right risks with your portfolio? Financial decisions can be tricky, and often your own cognitive and emotional biases can lead you astray. Financial Decoder, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, can help. Join host Mark Reapy as he offers practical solutions to help overcome the cognitive and emotional biases that may affect your investing decisions. Listen at schwab.com/financialdecoder.