Why Cooking is Caregiving, with Chef Hillary Sterling | Better in Person

Hillary Sterling was a Brooklyn kid raised on cream cheese sandwiches and canned potatoes. So how did she become one of New York City's best chefs? The Ci Siamo executive chef explains on the second episode of Better in Person. If you'd like to see the video version of Better in Person, watch it on YouTube or Apple Podcasts.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  This episode of Better in Person is presented by ChatGPT. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today.

• 0:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner. This is the second episode of a new video interview show we have just launched called Better in Person. If you'd rather watch it, which I would suggest you do, that's what it was made for. It is on the Freakonomics YouTube channel, but we're also happy to provide this podcast version of Better in Person for your ears only. As always, thanks for listening.

• 0:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  When people send back food, the whole rumor of a chef spitting, please.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  I've never seen it.

• 0:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  No, and that's fucking stupid. Like, come on.

• 0:52Speaker 02

  This is Better in Person with Stephen Dubner and Hillary Sterling.

• 0:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  There aren't many things in this world that you absolutely need to survive and which also bring great pleasure. Food is one of them. For some people, it is so pleasurable to cook for others that they build a career out of it. But it is a relentlessly demanding way to make a living. I recently met a chef who doesn't seem to have lost the pleasure of cooking. Hillary Sterling is executive chef at Chissamo, a big, successful, very loud kitchen in New York City. She was born and raised in Brooklyn, and she built her career in New York restaurants like Bobby Flay's Mesa Grill and the Michelin-starred Avocce. So when Hillary invited me into the kitchen at Chissamo, I of course said yes,

• 1:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  and I had barely finished saying hello before she threw me right into the fire.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  Can you give me the torch, Chris?

• 1:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, can you give me the torch? Hillary leads me over to the big wood-fired oven and hands me the blowtorch to start today's cook fire. Oh, I love a flamethrower.

• 2:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Chissamo celebrates live-fire Italian cooking, and fire is fun until it's not. Can I see your hands? How burned are you?

• 2:09Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 2:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Not, not.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  No, the burn, if you have burns, that means you're not paying attention.

• 2:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you remember that burn?

• 2:14Speaker 01

  I do. I remember all of them.

• 2:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Sterling points to a scar just above her right wrist.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  I mean, this one, this one right here.

• 2:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  It was in 2003. It was in the oven at Mesa Grill.

• 2:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  This one.

• 2:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  What were you making?

• 2:27Speaker 01

  I was reaching in the oven for my pork tenderloins.

• 2:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  And the guy next to me, Carlos, we were both reaching at the same time, and I moved over so he could get his steak or whatever out of the oven, and I hit inside, there's like bars inside the oven, that's what that was.

• 2:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you learned a very important lesson that day.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Stop being so polite. Yeah.

• 2:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. Does it work? Does plateness work in a kitchen? I would think you have to really be a little bit strong-headed, yeah?

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Back then, it was a little different, but it took about a year for Carlos and I to work well together. And I loved working with him the other two years after that.

• 3:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hillary now shows me how she makes cacio e pepe two ways, with fresh pasta and with dried pasta. Before we taste, she asks me to listen as she tosses it in the pan.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  There we go. See that noise? That's what I'm looking for. We teach people how to make pasta with their eyes closed sometimes.

• 3:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh. It's pretty, it's an erotic endeavor, isn't it? I mean, the whole thing about.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  I didn't say it, but yes. But I teach them how to cook.

• 3:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  By using their senses.

• 3:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  And that's my fault.

• 3:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's wrong with that?

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Well, people, humans are imperfect.

• 3:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  So, and guests do not want things that are imperfect.

• 3:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, now for a taste-off between the fresh pasta and the dry. I try the dry pasta first. Hmm.

• 3:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  I mean.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  These taste like yours?

• 3:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm doing right now what everybody I've ever seen eating on a food show does on TV, because what can you do other than say, mm, but it's really good. So what I like is that the pepperiness is intense and constant. Really, really good.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Be that one. Yeah.

• 4:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  And next up. Hmm.

• 4:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  That was the fresh.

• 4:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  It doesn't taste as good. I hate to say it. Fresh pasta does not taste as good as dried pasta. It's delicious, don't get me wrong, but I think because the texture is different, which so it made it kind of easy to tell. I like the al dente, and I think the al dente is more fun with the emulsion of cheese and butter and pepper. That's all.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  This feels, weirdly, the homemade feels more, kind of like food that I would make. Is it like not very, like, kind of a little bit mushy? No offense, once again.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Can I have a fork? You just called my pasta mushy.

• 4:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  This is really good.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Thanks. I like making pasta. I should do it for a living.

• 4:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  I like, yeah.

• 4:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Since Hillary Sterling cooked for me, I decided to return the favor by making her a hearty fish stew. It's a lot of fish. Ah, God, it smells so good. Okay, I'm not gonna lie, this is a good-looking fish stew. When she arrived for our conversation, I had the stew ready to go, and I was excited to share it, because who doesn't like a nice fish stew? I brought her into the kitchen so she could see it simmering away on the stove. I was so moved that you fed me so well, so generously, that I wanted to make something for you. And this is a little, I made a fish stew. What do you think? You're just laughing at my stew. That's what I hear most.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it looks delicious.

• 5:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, either A, it looks terrible, B, you're not hungry, C, you don't like fish, or D, you're insulted by stew.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  I know, I have this thing about soup.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  I'm really like.

• 5:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  You don't like soup?

• 5:50Speaker 01

  No, I don't like soup. I do, but I'm looking with clam chowder.

• 5:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  This is like clam chowder, except it's fish and.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  What kind of fish?

• 6:01Speaker 01

  I'm a little hesitant.

• 6:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you hate fish also?

• 6:03Speaker 01

  No, I love fish, love fish.

• 6:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  So I buy fish for the stew from Fresh Direct who sell fish cubes.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Fish cubes? I'm sorry. You're not selling me here by any means with fish cubes stew. I'm sorry.

• 6:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hillary has just published her first cookbook called Amata, and it has a recipe for garlic confit. So I added a little something else to the table that I thought she might like.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 6:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's toum. You know toum, T-O-U-M, garlic, like garlic, whipped, whipped raw garlic?

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Whipped raw garlic?

• 6:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Uh, I think that's what it is. I first discovered it, but I didn't actually make this, but I thought this might go good on our bear bread.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  Wow, that's gonna be, that's gonna be powerful.

• 6:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  You're.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  I'm really nervous now.

• 6:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  You're regretting ever agreeing to come here.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  No, because my head's spinning of like, how many things did everyone tell you that I don't like?

• 6:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  What else don't you like, though? Other than soup, is it just soup?

• 7:01Speaker 01

  It's pretty much just soup.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Soup and like raw garlic.

• 7:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Raw garlic also.

• 7:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  No worries. I ladled the soup into the bowls. I'm gonna give you a very small serving then.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 7:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, you're welcome. And you don't have to finish it. And I want to make sure you get a little bit of fish that's not too cubist.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, your presentation, though, I mean, those little potatoes, are they canned potatoes or regular? You cook them.

• 7:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm so insulted. I'm so insulted. They're not canned potatoes. I didn't actually know you get canned potatoes.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  My mom used to serve me all the time.

• 7:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Really?

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  No, everything, no, this is made deeply from scratch with total love.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  The only thing I didn't do is to find out how much you hate soup. She takes her first bite. Oh, no.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  That's great. Sorry.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  It really, it actually reminds me of something like that my grandmother would have totally made. A hundred percent. Because she would definitely.

• 8:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you love your grandmother?

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Very much, so.

• 8:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  And did you forgive her for making food that you maybe didn't love?

• 8:09Speaker 01

  I didn't know I didn't love it.

• 8:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  You only know now that you don't love it?

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, yeah. So I think three bites is really sufficient to show that you're.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  I've had two.

• 8:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Two is good. Would you like some bread?

• 8:20Speaker 01

  I ate a potato. I love potatoes.

• 8:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm clearing.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  It was delicious. Thank you.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  But I can get past this. It's delicious. I had a third bite. I feel, I don't want you to feel rejected.

• 8:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  I don't think I could have made something that Hillary Sterling hated more if I had tried. I guess feeding someone isn't just about how something tastes, it's about how it makes them feel, maybe what it makes them remember. So I fix Hillary a cocktail, which she does like, and we sit down in my living room to talk.

• 8:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's funny, I think, is your mind works totally differently than mine, because I'm always trying to categorize, and you're just trying to synthesize, I think.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, I just, I want to dissect.

• 9:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  I want to organize.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  You want to create.

• 9:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right, we're done.

• 9:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right, question. Say your name and what you do.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Sure, full name.

• 9:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  Full.

• 9:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  How many names are there? Is there a middle name?

• 9:25Speaker 01

  There is, but I won't, I don't need to do that.

• 9:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'd like to know.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  You want to know?

• 9:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hmm.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  There's also, it's a stupid story behind it, which is not in the book for a reason. My middle name is Jean.

• 9:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  And my mom named me after her Aunt Jean, but it turns out the cat's name was Jean, and her name was Minnie.

• 9:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  So your mom was just wrong?

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Who was named too in the family?

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 9:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, let me try to ask this.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Just to paint that picture of my mom right here.

• 9:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let me try to ask this in the most polite way possible. In what way would you say your family is atypical?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't, I don't.

• 10:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you want to just describe your...

• 10:09Speaker 01

  To try to be polite about this.

• 10:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  You don't have to be polite.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  My mom's still alive. I have to be polite. Sorry.

• 10:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. Don't apologize.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  She's like, she fed us cream cheese sandwiches on Wonder Bread and applesauce. So why do you think I'm like afraid of texture? Like, yeah.

• 10:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  I understand.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  That's why I'm a chef.

• 10:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  So it was your mom that ruined my fish chowder, really, if you go back to that?

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Well, she would never admit that. She would open a can of Minute Progresso.

• 10:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, but she fed you too much mush?

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Too much mush. I mean, canned potatoes on brisket, what was called not brisket. It was called like London Broil, whatever she, whatever that.

• 10:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  London, yeah.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't even know what cut of meat that is.

• 10:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's still around. It's, it looks like a brick.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's got, um...

• 10:50Speaker 01

  And there's like no fat and it was just like dry with canned potatoes and that dipped in like French onion soup mix.

• 10:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, are, do most chefs that you know, did they grow up eating so poorly?

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Um, no. I think I'm somewhat of an anomaly in that realm because of, I think a lot of chefs today, especially now, they had access to all that. Um, they had good restaurants.

• 11:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Like Sheepshead Bay wasn't the capital of like cuisine here, like in Brooklyn by any means. And like, so I think this was my like search of something.

• 11:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Tell me, um, life story, but quickly.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Uh, born and raised, same house my dad grew up in. Uh, my grandparents bought it in the 40s and they lived downstairs in the basement, which was, I always think about this, it's so fucked up, that we put them in the basement and we lived upstairs. Like, it was their house.

• 11:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what was it like growing up with your grandparents?

• 11:40Speaker 01

  It was awesome. The house smelled different. When they were there, my grandparents were like these really, really fun individuals. Um, they would go to, they would, they just loved life. Or it appeared so. I mean, they argued like every other couple and very loudly and it was really funny.

• 11:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  But like, they just, they appreciated what they had.

• 11:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  Um, when did you begin to think that you might want to make food for a living?

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Um, I worked in, um, restaurants at 14.

• 12:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Where?

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Uh, in Montauk, uh, cause I could walk there.

• 12:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  What was Montauk like? Just a fishing village?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  It was an amazing fishing village.

• 12:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  And you, you spent all your summers there? Oh, so that explains a lot about you, I think. You love the water, I understand.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  I love the water, yes.

• 12:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  You love sharks?

• 12:20Speaker 01

  I love sharks.

• 12:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  What is that? See, I knew everything about you, except that you don't like soup.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  I can't believe no one mentioned that.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Like, all those three people know how I feel.

• 12:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can I tell you? Maybe they did and somehow, subconsciously, I thought, you know, maybe they're wrong.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Um, I love the water. I love sharks. I wanted to be a marine biologist.

• 12:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ah.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Um, and I think instead I end up cooking them. So it's just kind of like this reverse.

• 12:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  No, wait, wait a minute. When you say them, you don't mean, you don't serve shark, do you?

• 12:50Speaker 01

  No, but like I, I love the water. I love like going to the Coney Island Aquarium. It was like my favorite thing as a kid.

• 12:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  So if I didn't know that you were a chef, if I just met you on a plane or something and we're having a conversation like this and just the way that you look, I would think you're a creative artist of some kind. Maybe a writer, theater, director. I think the fact that you seem that indicates what kind of chef you are. And I think that's why I like your chefing, is because you think about food and cooking, even for 400 people, the way that I like my artists to think. And I sense that that's not the norm in the restaurant world, but maybe I'm wrong. Tell me.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  I mean, I think, so every chef just wants a 40-seat restaurant. No one wakes up and says, man, I want to cook for this many people today.

• 13:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Why is 40 the right number?

• 13:33Speaker 01

  It's an easier number. It, you can do things that, that you can't do at 400 levels.

• 13:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Explain.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Um, you could make something so beautifully and small and perfect and like, cause you only have to cook 10 of them. I have to cook 100 of something.

• 13:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  So in order, so I don't mind doing volume. I've done Michelin star stuff. I've done volume. I've done rustic. I've worked at a beachside cafe. Like you name it, I, I've done that spectrum. And I think the food now I cook is probably the best I've ever cooked because I'm so, I allow the rusticity of it to come into play.

• 14:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  What does that mean, allow?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  It means like I, I don't need a hat for like a, a gnocchi. Like, it doesn't need that. Let's just make the best gnocchi we can make.

• 14:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. And figure it out. You're also, one thing I learned when I visited you is that you, um, seem to use senses as much as science, let's put it that way, yes?

• 14:24Speaker 01

  More so.

• 14:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  More so.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Cause I think people are in touch with like, I think there's, there's so much noise out there that if you tune it all out and just focus on what you're doing, you'll hear that noise of the pan, like when we made pasta. And then like squeezing a lemon, it's like this like crazy thing. It's like an interview question. I was like, how do you, like, I do not, if someone wants to put lemon juice in a squeeze bottle, you're not connecting with the lemon to dress the salad.

• 14:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you feel that serving people food is kind of way up there on the, on the scale of great things to do as a human? Because it must feel like you're, you know, part of the life sustaining force or something.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  That's also immediate gratification, right? You're getting immediate feedback too, right? So like you're, you can see, it's like when you, people, when people manage, we're managing in real time. You're serving in real time. There's no like, and it's kind of, I enjoy thinking fast and on my feet. And this is kind of an industry that like accepts that.

• 15:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Where I can also like say things that I probably shouldn't say sometimes because it just comes out and I'm like, ah, that was probably a bad idea.

• 15:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Like I hate your soup kind of thing?

• 15:23Speaker 01

  I didn't say that once. I was actually complimented you on your soup.

• 15:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  When you started at the bottom, what were you doing the first few years?

• 15:29Speaker 01

  Uh, salads, fry, washing dishes sometimes.

• 15:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  I had a chef that likes to use every pot and maybe wash them, torture me.

• 15:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  You talked about being tortured in a foreign language for a while.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  It was just an Irish brogue.

• 15:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  I couldn't, I couldn't understand it for shit. I was like, what? And then they're like, hold up this bread. They're like, go get this downstairs. And it was terrible. They made me peel onions in the basement with no ventilation.

• 15:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Um, most people, I assume, would have quit?

• 15:57Speaker 01

  It never crossed my mind. Quitting has never crossed my mind. I've never left a job because someone tortured me.

• 16:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  I've left because it was time.

• 16:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Fair enough, but, um, if you could rewind the clock or if you could remake the clock now and run restaurants differently? Cause everything I've ever read about restaurants in the kind of heyday of New York restaurant, modern heyday of restaurant culture, it sounds like everybody was tortured and everybody was miserable and everybody drank all the time and other things, et cetera, et cetera. And so is that how Chissamo is run?

• 16:30Speaker 01

  No. Restaurants used to be like that.

• 16:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. I mean, a lot of industries, to be fair, were...

• 16:37Speaker 01

  We used to have kegs in my office on Fridays.

• 16:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  So that's the drinking, but what about like the people being mean in the, in the culture of coming up? Did you experience that or not so much? You just didn't care?

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  I mean, I think I was more, I remember like the only times that I like cried.

• 16:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  And it had nothing to do with people.

• 16:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right, what was it?

• 16:56Speaker 01

  There was one time where I, was my first night on saute at Mesa Grill. And it was Labor Day, Sunday night and, um...

• 17:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Big deal restaurant, yes.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  It was a big, big restaurant and big deal. And I overcooked 100 and something pork tenderloins for hours. I just kept fucking overcooking.

• 17:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  One, one at a time?

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Maybe four at a time, five at a time. I just like hammered it. And my chef at the time gave me like a two-pan pickup, which means like I had to like pick up this like scallop dish and the accompaniment to it.

• 17:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  And I had two burners.

• 17:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Two burners. But it wasn't the only dish I was cooking. I was cooking pork tenderloins. And my first night, like really on saute and Sunday nights in New York City on a holiday weekend is a busy night. And I just remember getting crushed for hours, crushed. And I called my dad from Union Square and I told him about it. And I was like totally like, he's like, you're okay. It's okay. I mean, I held myself together and then I like totally, I mean, The Walkin's always a good place to cry in restaurants, but like, um, and he's like, okay. And I went back in the next day and I went to my chef and I apologized for overcooking 125.

• 17:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did any of them get sent back?

• 18:00Speaker 01

  I don't remember. It was kind of like a blur. And then the next week, the schedule goes up, old school on a wall, you know? And I'm on saute next Saturday night. And I was like, oh my God. Someone was on vacation, so they put me there. And I was like, okay. And I go to him and I was like, are you sure? And he's like, you have seven days to be one with the pork.

• 18:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, I remember that from your book, Be One With The Pork, yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  I was like, I'm gay. Like, this is like, I don't want to do that. I, I stared at these pork tenderloins for days.

• 18:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hmm.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Cooking them, watching them, staring at the clock, trying to figure out how long it takes to cook the pork tenderloin to perfection. It has like ancho chili rubbed, like your hands were red at the end of the shift. Like it, there was like a nub bucket. It was just, oh.

• 18:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's a nub bucket?

• 18:41Speaker 01

  It was like you cut off the ends and you put it in the nub at the end of the shift.

• 18:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  What happens to the nubs?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  I can't, don't ask.

• 18:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Are they used?

• 18:48Speaker 01

  I mean, no, but they're used in, in like family meal or everyone like, we make tacos, whatever.

• 18:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  And there's like, and...

• 18:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let me say, no, they're not used, except for what the other people working here are gonna eat later. Okay, yeah.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Um, and I spent seven days staring at pork tenderloins and...

• 19:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Before you're on saute again, the second time? You're prepping?

• 19:06Speaker 01

  I was like, yeah, I was like, he's like, I'm giving you a chance.

• 19:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Staring at them? You mean, you're going into the...

• 19:10Speaker 01

  I'm putting them in the oven. I'm searing them. I'm watching what happens.

• 19:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  You're practicing.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  I'm practicing and I'm watching, they, they change. There's a moment where like, when I, cause in my head, I'm like, be one with the pork. What does that mean? Oh my God, be one with the pork. I'm so like, like literal at that time. As a cook, I'm like, yes chef, be one with the pork, like.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  And I remember there was a little clock in the kitchen. It's like right there. And I, I pulled the pork out and it was like, four minutes, check the timer. Four minutes, five minutes, check the timer, check the timer. And then like twist, twist, twist. And at one point, there was a moment where they glistened. This may sound so...

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Wow, are you sure you want to keep doing this today?

• 19:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, they're glistening at you? Do you feel like they're glistening at you or with you? Are you glistening?

• 20:00Speaker 01

  I'm listening now, talking about it.

• 20:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  What did the glistening?

• 20:04Speaker 01

  It meant it was ready.

• 20:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  It meant it was ready. It finally showed me how to me to cook this mid rare pork tenderloin.

• 20:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, I hate to sound naive, but isn't that what like thermometers and whatnot are for? No, seriously. I mean, that's because you're right. In the last like 30 years, I feel like cooking has become extremely regimented.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Not just, it's exploded. Everybody wants to cook. And it's, I think it's fantastic personally. I don't do much because it, only because it's time consuming. If I had all day, I would love to, it's such a fun science project that you get to eat at the end.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 20:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  But I also feel like we've been told by so many people who at least present with authority that this is the way something is done always. And if you don't, then you're making a lesser version. But the story I hear you telling is very, very different. It's like food is real, we're real.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's real and you have to connect with it. You have to understand it. Because yeah, could I have used a thermometer? Sure. But 25 years, 25 years ago, that chef didn't say, hey, where's your thermometer? It wasn't even like, like it didn't even cross your mind.

• 21:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Got it.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  But no one showed me how to cook the pork.

• 21:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Right? So like this like conversation is like, I had to learn how to do this myself.

• 21:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  And it was really, it was really, and that was a moment that the senses, kind of like I finally understood. I started to understand what cooking was.

• 21:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  I see. Okay. And what is it about you, either in your character or maybe in your, someone that you admired when you were a kid? Like what is, what was it about you that made you want to be that? To be giving people food as you're living? Not just as sustenance, not just as pleasure, but of all the things that it represents?

• 21:42Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm a caregiver. I feel like that's what it stems from, right? Like I, I take care of people. You know, I love nothing more than making my son's lunch and dinner. Like I really enjoy setting the plate up. I enjoy all those things. I think that like, I've always been that way. And I cooked for friends in high school and like in college and like that kind of stuff. I've always enjoyed it, playing that role.

• 22:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  If this hadn't worked out, what do you think you'd be doing?

• 22:06Speaker 01

  I mean, I love teaching, but that's kind of like how I am now. I don't think 25 years ago, I would have.

• 22:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  You strike me as that you would have been an impatient teacher back then. Cause you're, you're fast. You're, I can see your brain and your mouth, they move, which I love, but.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would have been impatient. I'd be like, I don't understand why you don't understand. What do you mean?

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Be one with the pork, right? Like, I wish, I don't think that chef ever understands how much that silly statement resonated with me over all these years.

• 22:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is he alive?

• 22:35Speaker 01

  He is.

• 22:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  You'll send him the book?

• 22:36Speaker 01

  I will.

• 22:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  This episode of Better in Person is presented by ChatGPT. ChatGPT work moves beyond answers into getting real work done. It's a new experience in ChatGPT for bigger, multi-step projects across web, mobile and desktop. You can give ChatGPT work a goal and have it gather context, choose an approach, create the output and continue iterating, all while you stay in control. It can help turn messy inputs into useful outputs like briefs, spreadsheets, dashboards, presentations, prototypes, landing pages and workflows. You can even ask ChatGPT work to take on entire workflows with a single request. Here's an example.

• 23:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  It can turn customer research into a campaign brief, use that brief to create marketing assets and adapt those assets for different markets, carrying context through every step. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today.

• 23:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Chisiamo is one of around 20 restaurants under the umbrella of the Union Square Hospitality Group, which was founded by Danny Meyer. You may know Meyer from Shake Shack, which is a separate operation. Union Square is known for putting hospitality at the center of New York restaurant culture.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  He's one of those people that we all look up to, right? He opened up restaurants in Union Square 40 years ago, 30 years ago. And sitting at the bar at Gramercy just brings you so much joy. Doesn't matter what you're eating, doesn't, doesn't matter, just walking in the door.

• 24:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Why, why?

• 24:12Speaker 01

  It exudes warmth and like, it just says, please come in and celebrate whatever you want to celebrate with us, or just have a drink and hang out. And the floor, like, just like everything about the details in that restaurant. That restaurant has more of an impact on me than, than Union Square Cafe did. But I went to Union Square Cafe as a young cook and appreciating the seasonality of it and the market.

• 24:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you just go in and sit at the bar and eat by yourself?

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love eating by myself.

• 24:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  This was at the old Union Square Cafe?

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  I heard that you were actually offered the job to take over Union Square Cafe?

• 24:45Speaker 01

  I was, I was, no, I wouldn't say I had the job offer. I was, spoke with them about the job.

• 24:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  The people who told me this sounded as though they wanted you for the job and they were a little surprised that you didn't take the job.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  I think everyone was surprised that I didn't take the job and I was surprised too.

• 25:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  So why didn't you?

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Long story, short story?

• 25:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Long story.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  I sat in that dining room and I, cause I like to eat dinner at places before I took a job. Obviously this is more of that like, you know, thing where I have to like feel the walls and be a part of it. And like, what is it telling me? It must sound so crazy, but like I sat there and the white tablecloth and the food was delicious. And, and I was like, I'm never going to be me here.

• 25:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's too formal-ish for you?

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Not even necessarily formal, but like, there was like such a history to it that I felt like I couldn't rewrite that history with my own voice.

• 25:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Literally, like in the menu, like you, you wouldn't have been able, like there were things on the menu that people know Union Square for and they need to be there. Is it that some of them you weren't crazy about making or?

• 25:53Speaker 01

  No, I don't mind doing that. I just, I think I was in a phase in my career that I wanted to be able to figure out who I really was and allow myself to unfold that. And as opposed to like putting myself into a parameters in a box that I didn't create.

• 26:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you needed to run your own show?

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. So where were you working when you were offered the Union Square job?

• 26:14Speaker 01

  I was running Vicks on Great Jones Street.

• 26:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. So that, and you were having a lot of success there. People loved you.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I opened it. I got to create, I got to build that box, right? That I wanted to be in. And I felt like going back to a job that I didn't feel like that was the right fit for me at that time.

• 26:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Got it, okay. Even though it would have been prestigious if you tell people you're.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Amazing, yeah. It took a lot to tell, to say no. I was like, I was like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm about to say no to Danny Meyer.

• 26:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  What was his response?

• 26:41Speaker 01

  I think they understood my feelings. And obviously we kept up a, a relationship over the years.

• 26:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  I assume Chisiamo with Danny Meyer wouldn't have happened had you not known him like that through Union Square?

• 26:51Speaker 01

  I would guess so. I mean, that's, so I heard that they were opening this restaurant and I called them. And I knew when I made the phone call that whatever it was going to be, I was going to have to say yes.

• 27:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, because you can't say no to them twice.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 27:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  So if they had said, it's a falafel shop.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Love it, love falafel.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Here I am, I am, I'm gonna make you falafel.

• 27:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Your name is falafel, actually.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  You know? Yeah, I was like, whatever you want me to cook. I'm, cause once I made that, because I remember the conversation, I called Richard Kram, Danny's like number one. And he's like, are you sure? Like basically it was just like, we're not doing this again.

• 27:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wait, wait, wait. Chisiamo represents something which is Italy, but a different way of presenting Italy.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Chisiamo is, is honoring Italian food, but also my New York background. So like the rainbow cookies, that's the prime example of something that is Italian, but also my like going to Nap Street Bakery and getting those cookies and realizing that I thought they were amazing, but they actually were not. And they probably were in the counter for like years.

• 27:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  They probably had some amazing oil from some country you've never heard of.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And like some food coloring that was like so bad.

• 27:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let me explain why your hair is so curly.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  It's so curly, so curly.

• 28:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. Sorry, rainbow cookies, Chisiamo, but also presenting Italy as a place with many, many, many different regions and ideas and so on.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  And we highlight all regions and I don't, I guess sometimes I really still don't understand that people think Italian American food is Italian. And I think what we're trying to do is kind of like change that little bit of, of that perspective. And I've been trying to do that for 15 years now.

• 28:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you know it would be successful when you started this restaurant?

• 28:30Speaker 01

  No, I sat in that dining room and been like, no one's coming here. No one is coming. Like, what did I do? I was like freaking out like for weeks on end.

• 28:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  So why was it successful, do you think?

• 28:39Speaker 01

  I think we were being honest with who we were and I wasn't trying too hard.

• 28:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  How would you describe yourself as a boss? Like if you, if we were to interview, how many employees do you have? Must be over 100.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Well, 70 in the kitchen.

• 28:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  In the kitchen, 70.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can interview the front of the house too.

• 28:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. So if we, if we talked to all of them and we made a word cloud, what do you, what adjective do you think would be biggest?

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Fair.

• 29:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  A little untamed.

• 29:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, fair, a little insane. Soup lover.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Soup lover throughout.

• 29:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  And how hard do you have to work to be fair? Or is it come naturally to you?

• 29:14Speaker 01

  I think it comes more naturally now than it did.

• 29:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  What do you mean by that?

• 29:19Speaker 01

  I think, I did grow up in that environment where it wasn't like, nothing was fair.

• 29:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  You know, so sometimes you have to like, kind of turn that back off.

• 29:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  And shut it, I'd be like, because these people that work at Chissamo, they work so hard. And they love it, and they are, you know, involved in every aspect of it. Being fair to them and understanding what their needs are are just as important as my needs.

• 29:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  So how do you, A, you know, execute a kitchen like that every day and be fair? And also teach, because you're, you always talk about yourself as a teacher in the kitchen. People are coming to you with different skill levels and so on. How do you do all that with, and have high standards, presumably? How do you do all that without being a dictator, though?

• 30:03Speaker 01

  It's a great question. I, um, there's never like, you do this because I told you so. It's, let me show you why, let me tell you how, and then let's do it together.

• 30:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  And sometimes those steps are pretty fast. They might be all in the same sentence. But it's about like, let me, you know, I've definitely told cooks to close their eyes. And to listen, and to stop, and like, to hit reset. And it's about like, you know, you walk by someone doing something wrong. You just have to tell them to fix it. Like, that's one of those things that like, we can't wait a month to tell someone they're shitty.

• 30:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Right? Like, you're not doing something because you don't know how, but my job is to teach you.

• 30:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  And to stop what I'm doing, and I stop all the time, dead in my tracks. I watched somebody the other day doing something that was so wrong.

• 30:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  What'd you say?

• 30:47Speaker 01

  And like, almost dangerous. I was like, let's put that down.

• 30:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's hear your actual tone of voice, if you can.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  I basically almost mocked them a little bit, be like, what are you doing? You know, like, let's stop this, and let me show you how to do it correctly. And then let's do it together.

• 30:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, I mean, I would love that, if you were my teacher.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  And then the cook said, "Thank you."

• 31:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  And that was the difference. He wasn't, he knew I was joking with him to be like, because I could see him struggling. And I was like, and then I looked at my sous chef and was like, if you see someone struggling, like, why, why are you gonna allow him to struggle?

• 31:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  What was the answer to that question?

• 31:18Speaker 01

  He, he didn't have an answer, a good enough one. And then I showed him how to do it too. It was probably just because he didn't, he wasn't as comfortable.

• 31:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  What were they doing wrong?

• 31:26Speaker 01

  They were breaking down lobsters.

• 31:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's the right way to break down a lobster?

• 31:30Speaker 01

  What's the right, well, I mean, do you have lobsters hiding somewhere?

• 31:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  There's one under your couch.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Let me get that for you.

• 31:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm gonna fire the person that didn't have lobsters on the set.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Well, there's a way, you have to kill them, cook them, and then it's that cleaning, that last stage. And no one wants to do the knuckles.

• 31:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  But like, so when I teach someone how to do something, it's about putting your knife down the least amount of times.

• 31:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  And then everything should be in a round robin formation.

• 31:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Got it.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Your, your knife, your container, your this, whatever. Ask them if they're right-handed or left-handed, we start with that conversation, so we break the ice a little bit here. And then we set up a station so that they never, they're always in doing something in a fluid motion.

• 32:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Got it.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  So like, head, tear.

• 32:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Got it.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Like, that kind of stuff.

• 32:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, so it strikes me, and I may be wrong, but tell me, it strikes me that you are particularly good at that kind of teaching, like, it sounds to me like you're good at teaching process and, you know, actual step, because it's a physical thing, you need to do it. I just think of you as someone who basically learned to cook by cooking a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of different things. Which, some people do, but these days, a lot of people go straight from high school or college to culinary school, and then come to a restaurant like yours. And I'm just wondering how someone like that is different from someone like you who has learned to solve every problem for yourself, essentially.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  They have to be hungry. If they just went to culinary school as a band-aid.

• 32:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  You don't mean hungry to eat food, you mean hungry to...

• 32:52Speaker 01

  I mean, hungry to like, be me, right?

• 32:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Like, I ask a lot of cooks on their interview, "Do you wanna be a chef, or do you wanna be a cook? You gotta tell me, and then I can, and then I can guide you. Do you wanna own a restaurant? What do you wanna do?"

• 33:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  I see. How many say they wanna own a restaurant?

• 33:05Speaker 01

  A lot, and I'm like, "Are you sure?" I follow that up with a lot, like, "You sure?" And I'm like, and then I ask where.

• 33:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  They're like, "In New York City." I was like, "Okay."

• 33:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right, one of the hardest things about opening a restaurant, running a restaurant in New York City.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Opinions.

• 33:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hmm.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Reviewers.

• 33:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  You had a couple of bad ones, didn't you, way back when?

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Way back when, I did, yeah.

• 33:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Beatrice, Beatrice Enzo?

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, come on.

• 33:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is that, uh, I can't quote it by, uh, but, uh, so what was that, like?

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Oh, it was terrible.

• 33:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  And, you know, it, um, I read it, I read the review back many years later, and he was right.

• 33:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  And that was like, the crazy part.

• 33:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you write him a note?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  No, but I, I got my revenge.

• 33:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  Um, with Chissamo, and I got to talk to him on the phone. I didn't bring him in, he came in.

• 33:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you give him a little botulism? What do you mean by revenge?

• 33:56Speaker 01

  No, he gave me an amazing review, and I got to talk to him, and he put us on all these lists, and like, he, he basically, you know, um, and I've always wanted to write him a note, you know, and I should, right? Like, "Yeah, you destroyed me." And, and then I had to build myself back up.

• 34:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  When you say destroyed, um...

• 34:15Speaker 01

  This is my first chef job, and he gave me zero stars.

• 34:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  I mean, did you lose the job, as a result?

• 34:20Speaker 01

  I left the job eventually.

• 34:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  You left it, but on your own?

• 34:22Speaker 01

  On my own.

• 34:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  So when you say destroyed, you, describe what that feels like mentally, and I, I just wanna know, like, with cooking, at the level, in the, at the level you do and the pace you do, I would imagine that it's heavily a mental game as well, just as sports can be, or...

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  And so I wonder with cooking, what it's like, how much of it is a mental game? But especially when you talk about being destroyed like that, did it mean that you felt you were no good anymore?

• 34:47Speaker 01

  I mean, it definitely made me like, take a step back, and it was embarrassing, obviously. And then I, like, you know, when we got that review, I had to walk back in the kitchen and look at my team. And pump them up for the night.

• 34:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  And still do that.

• 35:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  What'd you say?

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Um, it was, you know, it was hard, because they all believed in me.

• 35:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  And I'd let them down, essentially, right? They believed in what we were doing, they believed in our food, they believed in that, like, job, and...

• 35:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  But you said when you read it back later that he was right, what were you doing wrong?

• 35:17Speaker 01

  I think I was thinking too hard. I was trying too hard. And it was, I was also cooking American food. I don't know how to cook American food, let's be real, like, I just had to accept that. I do not know how to cook American food, and he's right, I didn't, and like, that's fine.

• 35:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  You've been cooking American food for, I mean...

• 35:31Speaker 01

  I had cooked American food, but I don't know how to cook American food, there's no soul. I need a story.

• 35:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  I see.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  I need a story, I need a place, I need something that gets me inspired. American food?

• 35:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, so, tell us your Italy story. So, from what I've read, from what you've written and what I've heard about you, you just kind of found your sole place, in a way, when it comes to food in Italy, is that about right?

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  And you went over there and you just started going to towns and asking for the grandmas to teach you how to cook stuff?

• 35:58Speaker 01

  I definitely looked for nonna's, yeah.

• 35:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  You really did this?

• 36:00Speaker 01

  I did.

• 36:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, so this was when you were wearing your career?

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Um, there was a couple of different points, and Italy was always my like, spot. Where if I was like, needed to hide from something, I'd go to Italy. If I needed to escape, I'd go to Italy. It was like, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go for a week, I'll be back. Terrible, but, I mean, I can get by with, um, words and like, and restaurants and food.

• 36:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's so great about Italy? No, I'm serious.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  No, I'm not gonna answer that.

• 36:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  No, I'm serious about that question, because, um, no, no, because you've essentially devoted your life to cooking Italian food.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Essentially, yeah.

• 36:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  But I think there are a lot of people, not more, not essentially, you've devoted your life

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  to cooking Italian food.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  So for people who may think of Italian food as a narrower version of, through the American prism, what is so great about Italy and Italian food? Like, you love everything about, right?

• 36:52Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 36:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, that's what I want, though, I want you to talk to me about that culture.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  I want that espresso in the morning, I want that noise that the espresso makes, and I want the cornetti that's served on this plate, that it's okay to eat a fucking puff pastry every morning. And be like, and I don't gain weight, for some reason, I don't know how. I love being able to sit and have pasta and wine at lunch without like, someone telling you that's not okay. And I also really appreciate that they still believe in using the best products.

• 37:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Like, you know, the guy over there made the mozzarella, the guy over there grew the tomatoes, and you made the pizza. Like, that's, that to me is why food is so special.

• 37:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Why did the industrialized food domination not take over Italy the way it did the US?

• 37:34Speaker 01

  I mean, don't be fooled, it's, it definitely has. Uh, but there's also still these small pockets of people that still really, truly won't let that happen. Because it's, you know, they're not looking for money, they don't want to grow, they wanna do what they've done their whole lives and just make that special.

• 37:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's just talk about the economics of running a restaurant. It just strikes me as a puzzle, that you have to solve exactly right to even have a chance at succeeding.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 37:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, so what's, for people who don't know the industry, what's so hard about it? What are some of the many things you have to kind of figure out financially and, and elsewise?

• 38:09Speaker 01

  So if you really dig into, the majority of where you're spending money on is food, wine, and labor, to purchase all of those things.

• 38:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  So we basically control all the spending, right? We have to make sure that we're ordering correctly, spending the right amount of money on food. Negotiating is a huge thing.

• 38:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  And you do that yourself?

• 38:24Speaker 01

  I do it myself.

• 38:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Give me a, for instance, what's the latest food negotiation you've done?

• 38:28Speaker 01

  Um, I needed tuna for Thanksgiving. We were doing this tuna crudo, that I really enjoyed, and I was really excited about it, but I needed some good tuna.

• 38:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  How much tuna were you looking for?

• 38:36Speaker 01

  I needed like, 40 pounds of tuna.

• 38:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Um, I probably should have had 50, we got a little tight at the end of the day. Thanksgiving was a little rogue this year. And I basically called every fish purveyor we have. I said, "I need 50 pounds of tuna tomorrow, what's your price?" And waited for all of them to give back to me.

• 38:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  And then I said, "Okay, can you do this, this, and this?" And I basically went back to the ones I like better than others.

• 38:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Um, one of my purveyors the other day texted me like, 11 o'clock at night, "Why aren't you ordering for me?" And I was like, "Delete, no, thank you, like, that's not, that's..." You're becoming emotional. I'm like, "Please, like, I order tuna, like, what is the big deal?" So basically, then I go back to the guy and say, "I want this, can you do that for me?" And then, and we do that over the course of the year, every day at some point.

• 39:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Got it. So that's a special order, what about your staple stuff, like, chipolini onions? I remember you were...

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, we talked about chipolini, so last year we spent 20, we bought 28,000 pounds of chipolines.

• 39:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  So I went back to every purveyor and said, "I bought 28,000 pounds of chipolines, you want my chipolini business?" And we do that with our, no, it's crazy. "You want my chipolini business?" We did it to the rabbit farmer too, which I felt a little bit bad about. 6,000 rabbits died so that I could make pasta last year, like, that's just like, ah.

• 39:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you've been building to the Chissamo moment your whole life, now you're here, is it feel, does it feel the way you hoped it would feel?

• 39:53Speaker 01

  I still think I'm a cook some days. And I think that's something that's like, you know, yeah, it's crazy that that book's sitting right there, right?

• 40:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, how big do you want to be? Because you seem like you might be at the precipice of being a real celebrity chef, which I'm sure to most people from the outside seems awesome. But celebrity is a weird thing, as I'm sure you know. So I'm curious how you think about the size that you would like to be.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  I don't think about the size. I think about what's next, right? So we're opening another restaurant. We're doing the book, right? If I can touch more people in getting them to cook with their senses and getting them to actually take a minute to pause and reset and like capturing them.

• 40:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  So that's what you're after. You're after teaching people to cook with their senses.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'll be honest with you. That fish chowder, I hate to keep bringing it up. I cooked it with all my senses.

• 40:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  You seem appreciative of that you're getting to do the thing you want to do in a way that you want to do it.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 40:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that's rare in this world, you know? I mean, I know people who make a lot of money and hate themselves for what they do. I know people who do what they love and can't make it work for them. And you kind of got the golden mean, it seems.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  I mean, I could use to make more money, but like, it's fine.

• 41:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Cheers to you, Hillary. This was a blast. Thank you. Hillary Sterling, everybody. And there's plenty of fish chowder for everybody, so come on in.

• 41:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Thank you so much for checking out this audio episode of Better in Person. But remember, this is a video show. And if you want to see it in all its high-def glory, go to the Freakonomics YouTube channel. And let us know what you think. Our email is [email protected] or [email protected]. And you can see the full credits at the end of every video episode on YouTube. We will be back soon right here with more Freakonomics Radio and more Better in Person audio. Until then, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else too. So how do you squeeze a lemon into, let's say, a fish chowder?

• 42:05Speaker 01

  This way.

• 42:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  I thought you do this way so seeds don't. How do you get seeds?

• 42:08Speaker 01

  They have little hats on them. Back to the hat thing. So we cover each lemon every day.

• 42:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, okay.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  So that they're squeezing it.

• 42:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  More like a diaper than a hat.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a net, a hairnet.

• 42:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yes, diaper is probably not a great restaurant connotation.

• 42:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Thanks again to ChatGPT for sponsoring today's episode of Better in Person. ChatGPT can help teams move from goals to real outcomes. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today.