Extra: Domonique Foxworth Full Interview

Stephen Dubner’s conversation with the former N. F. L. player, union official, and all-around sports thinker, recorded for our “Hidden Side of Sports” series.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 0:48Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:19Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:09Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey there, I'm Stephen Dubner, and this is a Freakonomics Radio Extra, our full interview with Dominique Foxworth, who appeared in Bits and Pieces in our Hidden Side of Sports series. I've known Foxworth for a while now. He's one of the most thoughtful athletes I've ever encountered. But this conversation surpassed my already high expectations, not just for his thoughtfulness, but his willingness to wrestle with contradiction and his hardcore candor. As you'll hear in this episode, Foxworth was an NFL player for several years, then served as president of the NFL Players Union, and, after getting an MBA from Harvard, was the COO of the NBA Players Union. It turns out he didn't like that job too much. You'll hear why.

• 3:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  As our conversation begins, Foxworth is talking about his belief that the professional sports players' unions should be dissolved. I asked why.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that where we are with professional athletes and how big a business it's gotten and how well they are compensated, I think, is a product of sacrifices made by players coming up. And many players lost long seasons, were blackballed out of the league, and had their careers really torn apart by their ambitions of free agency and pensions and all those things. And they never really got to fully reap the benefits from that. And I think back in those days, the unions, the player unions, were a lot like what we think of as traditional labor unions. But I think we've gotten to a point now where...

• 4:25Speaker 01

  It's not like that. And with the, the length of a player's career and how much money they could stand to make in a season, it's really not in their best interests, like mathematically, logically, if you go through the numbers, it's not in their best interest to actually withstand a lockout or to initiate a strike. They will not make that money back. Like, it's just physically impossible. The reason why they would do it is to further the cause, I guess, for players in the future. But since you can't kind of hand your position down to your son or daughter, then it really doesn't seem to make sense. So for me, I can use me as an example. I sacrificed

• 5:07Speaker 01

  from the time I was, I don't know, probably in high school is when I started to forego other opportunities or other decisions to focus more on football. Then I'm in college and I wanted to be a computer, I did computer graphics and some computer science in high school. And then in college, I wanted to be a computer science major at University of Maryland. And my academic advisor was like, mm, though that, that course load is going to make it very difficult for you to make it to our practices, their labs and blah, blah, blah, blah. So I was like, no, not going to do that during the summers when there's.

• 5:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  So instead you did, was it American Studies?

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did American Studies.

• 5:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  And Journalism, right? And Journalism, which just shows how easy what I do is that you could do it and another major while playing football. But anyway, go ahead.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  No, I, I enjoyed those and it was, it was good, but it wasn't what I wanted to do. And in the summers, when, when people were getting internships or whatever, I was working out and getting ready for football. And I say all that to say, once I got to the league, then I got drafted and I was in the third round. So that's, it's money, it's good money, but it's not life-changing money. It doesn't, and it doesn't kind of make up for all the things that you have given up through the course of your life. And then. I come up on free agency and that's when I got a pretty nice deal. I can't, yeah, I can't imagine if somebody was like, no, you gotta sit out right now. And then when you think about it, it's, it's competition, obviously, because you are competing

• 6:43Speaker 01

  in this lockout or, or strike with the owners, whereas it does make sense for them to withstand a lockout because they own their teams into perpetuity. So if they, if they win a lockout for a tenth of a percentage point or even a whole percentage point of revenue split, that is something that will maybe three million dollars a franchise for this season and it'll go up as things grow and it goes on and on and on. So if you are in the, the kind of old fashioned mindset of labor, strikes is the only way to get anything, you are, players in all sports are severely mismatched.

• 7:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's interesting to hear you say though, that that would be the reason to maybe not have players unions because, um, you know, a, a lockout or strike, I guess, the lockout is what the owners do, a strike is what the players can do. A strike, even the strike threat is rarely, is pretty rare, like once every whatever, five to 10 years, depending on when a given union's collective bargaining agreement is up, right? So, so you, I know you were playing football in the NFL when the lockout happened. It was like 2011 or 12, it must've been, somewhere in there, right? And I know that the NFL Players Association was basically telling you guys, uh, put away

• 7:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  as much money as you can and maybe you might want to switch to, you know, regular gas or unleaded, all this stuff. Can you just talk about that experience?

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, I'm heavily involved in the negotiations, so I remember that. I remember trying to get all the players ready, but the fact of the matter is the players are severely outmatched if you're going to try to match up with money with owners. Like, we're not going to be able to outlast, uh, how long they can go without making money. As far as influence on the media, they have that also. And so the, the- Kind of trying to fight them in that traditional way. You're destined for failure, it would seem. So the point of decertification is as long as we have a union, we have to agree over collective bargaining. Once you dissolve the union, then you expose the league to antitrust law, which frankly, the NFL existed for several years, very lucratively for the players without a union.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  And the league was exposed to antitrust law. That's what precipitated a free agency in football. And the only reason why the NFL Players Association was reconstituted was because the NFL made it a stipulation of the settlement. Like you must reform a union to allow us to operate as a legal cartel slash monopoly. And so that's the only reason why we exist, frankly. And I was the president of the union. I was the COO of the NBA Players Union for a time. And I recognize the union provides a great deal of value. But I think frankly, that protection is more value to the leagues than it's to the players. So like in that whatever job anyone has in your job,

• 9:37Speaker 01

  they can't institute a salary cap. Like they can't do a draft and say like, hey, all the doctors that graduate this year, we're gonna draft you and tell you where you go. Like you have some say in those things because they are forced to abide by the regular laws that everyone else abides by. So.

• 9:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Regular labor laws, not union provisions. Wow. So how would you have the scenario look? I mean, every league's different, but obviously, college football is this weird unpaid, high risk.

• 10:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  I mean, that's a whole other financial ecosystem. Why don't we just start with talking about how NCAA football works as a feeder system for the NFL and what that does for or to the athletes?

• 10:23Speaker 01

  I think we're at a point now where most people kind of understand that college sports is professional sports. And, and, and in select cases. So like, obviously, the vast majority of college sports are not professional sports. But the two kind of big money sports in the power five conferences, they generate a substantial amount of revenue. And that revenue goes to.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Lots of people who are not the labor. So it goes to supporting other sports. It goes to building bigger and better facilities. It goes to paying college presidents and coaches and funding the NCAA. Like, it goes a lot of different places, but it doesn't go to, to the people who are the labor on the field. And I think another thing that complicates that, it would be, it would be a problem if that was the end of the story and every player then went on to have NFL careers. It would be unfair, but eh, whatever. Like, you're not gonna lose any sleep for those guys. But the vast majority of the guys, and I have several teammates who, because it is not considered work, they're not privy to workers' compensation, they're not privy to extended healthcare.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  So I have a few teammates who have torn ACLs, separated shoulders, um, torn labrum's and hips and shoulders, lots of injuries that, uh, one of my best friends in college, uh, I think it was a few years ago, his doctor told him that he was gonna have to have both of his knees replaced by the time he was 50. And he didn't play professional sports. He had, um, three knee surgeries while in college. And there's nothing that any college football team or, or governing body is gonna do for him in that case. And that, that to me is, is tragic that a lot of people benefited from that. And again, he had aspirations to play professional football, so while he was in college, he made

• 12:18Speaker 01

  all of the decisions that people who have those aspirations do where you don't necessarily go after the major that you are most interested in, or the major that's gonna lead to a career. You go after a major that's going to allow you to focus on, on what's most important, which is sports, unfortunately. And I know many people would say that maybe that shouldn't be so important, but it's hard when that carrot's out there. It's hard to convince somebody to... To try to balance and try to do both things well, when it's like, no, I need to do as well as I can at this because this is like a life-changing opportunity, like not just your life, but a generational shifting opportunity. And you have a chance at it and someone's going to tell you, no, how about you don't go do that summer workout that's going to

• 13:03Speaker 01

  get you closer to it? How about you take an internship or something? Or how about you do take that tougher major? You're going to miss a few practices, the coaches may not start you, and it'll stunt your development. Like, that just doesn't make sense.

• 13:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, the old-fashioned argument for why this was okay and why it was acceptable was that, well, you know, this is like what economists call a tournament model, right? Whenever you've got a lot of people competing for like the top of the pyramid, whether it's show business, or sports, or whatever, you know, the bottom of the pyramid, there's lots and lots and lots and lots of people there willing to do whatever it takes for practically no money. It's this kind of weird unpaid apprenticeship. And I guess some people accept that as okay. Others don't. But I think what strikes me that's especially noteworthy about sports is the degree and magnitude of sacrifice, physical and otherwise,

• 13:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  is larger, I would argue, than trying to become an actor, trying to become a writer, and whatnot. So, can you just talk about that component of it a little bit more and what you think would be a better solution?

• 14:12Speaker 01

  I think bringing up the tournament model is interesting. Because I could understand how some people would look at that and say that it fits here and that's why this is fair. But I think as a country, we've decided that that wasn't fair a long time ago. Like, that's not, there are plenty of jobs where that's true. Like, just about every job was like, the barista at Starbucks. Like, there are plenty of people out there who are capable of being baristas. And you could probably allow Starbucks to pit them against each other and negotiate down, down, down, down, down. But that's not the case. Like, we've instituted

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Minimum wages and instituted lots of other laws to protect American people or American workers from these type of capitalistic urges run amok. And the, the thing that's frustrating to me is we've instituted rules in professional sports that happen to take place on college campuses. We instituted rules that are to the advantages of the institutions, but we are not interested in instituting any rules that are, that are things that we accept as just kind of like facts and fair. Like there, you'll, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone in our society that's like, no, let's eliminate the minimum wage and, and allow this, this tournament model to, to run amok for, for low wage workers.

• 15:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. Well, the other argument though in colleges is, and again, this may be a purely specious argument from your perspective, maybe partially specious, but the other argument is wait a minute, free education, four years of college, what's that worth?

• 15:49Speaker 01

  So there's two major issues that jump out for me from the education. The players are brought to the school because of their athletic prowess. There are many players who I, I've been around and I know that were not prepared to benefit. So what they're receiving is steps 10, 11, and 12, when what they're building on is steps one, two, and three, if that makes any sense. So that education frankly is worthless to them. They're then there trying to get eligible. And then there's the other, like people who show up who are prepared, like me and like other people that then make all these decisions because you're not, you're not even getting

• 16:31Speaker 01

  the same education as the people around you because you have to travel on Thursdays and Fridays and you are not allowed to do certain majors because they conflict with your schedule. And three times a week during the winter session or the, the spring session, you have to go to 5 a.m. workouts and. And that changes your academic experience. Like it's, it's, there are all these things that are mandatory because your scholarship is year to year and you don't have any power to negotiate with your coach like and say things like, I, I want to take this, so I'm not going to be able to go there. Like, that's just not a thing that, that is available. So the, the education that they're receiving is not the education that people think it is.

• 17:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. And so this is a gigantic question and it's a, it's a, it's such a big industry already that there's obviously no easy, quick solution that would satisfy even close to everybody. But what kind of solution or solutions do you think are most viable that would, let's say, keep big time college sports intact in a way that the market would need them to be intact? In other words, there's massive audiences out there that really like it. But all those dollars, as you've noted, don't flow to the people who actually produce the labor. So what would be a way to equilibrate that a little bit or make more people less unhappy at least?

• 17:55Speaker 01

  The thing that frustrates me about that conversation is it's always, you're always asked to, to add something, to change a rule, to fix it. Whereas I feel like we should blow it up altogether and follow, frankly, the model that this country has followed up until now is that you, you strive for a free market and then you institute rules to make it fairer. So I think that's where we should go. Like, let's not try to add a rule or, or provide a stipend for players. No. Let the, let the schools go after these players the same way anyone else would go after any other employee. And then if we notice that there are issues along the way, then we can add rules to, to fix those.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  I, I think trying to inch our way back is not the way to, to get to the fairest possible system.

• 18:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  If you were going to blow up the system, would you even connect that kind of pre-professional sports league, meaning college, would you even connect that to universities at all? Or was that an accident of history that is the root of the problem essentially?

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely an accident of history. Like, I know you and your son are are big soccer or footy fans.

• 19:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  You can call it soccer. That's all right.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  That's not the that's not the model that they follow. It's not, I mean, this is a purely American model, this college athletics being a feeder system to professional athletics. And it's probably, not probably, it is more unnatural, I would think, than than these other systems. So I understand that it is the way that our country developed. And I mean, I understand the allure of being connected to a college that you went to or colleges you grew up around. And I'm not saying that you that you have to dissolve that all together. You can allow them to, I mean, many of the, obviously, they are nonprofit organizations, but they understand how to exist in a for-profit environment.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Like, they do go after different professors and and they negotiate over those terms. Like, this is something that they are accustomed to. They negotiate with coaches. Like, they don't have to go that far with their coaches and assistant coaches. Like, they understand how the free market works. So Jimbo Fisher is a good example of it. He was the coach at Florida State. He brought him a national championship. And then Texas A&M offered him a better situation, and he up and left. And then Florida State went and got Willie Taggart from Oregon. Like, this is not something, while they want to pretend that it is a completely pure system, like, they know how this works. And every other year, Alabama has to pay Nick Saban a little bit more to to keep him at the top of the list. Like, this is not something that that is brand new to them.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  I don't see why it's any different from. From going into a kid's living room and saying, well, we want you to come here. We can offer you X, Y, and Z. But it just, I think it makes people feel uncomfortable, but there's nothing wrong with it.

• 20:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  So it's interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, I probably am, but it seems like there's a weird paradox here. You're calling for the decertification or the blowing up of professional sports players' unions because you feel like they don't really work well and work in the interest of the athletes who need to kind of make their, make their money now, careers being so short. But it sounds like college athletes have zero collective representation and that a union for them might actually do some good? Or do you think that's not a solution?

• 21:25Speaker 01

  No, I think that they've, they've tried and failed. Ramogi Huma at one point was leading that effort and it hasn't worked. But I do think that, that them having a seat at the table with some leverage would be helpful because anytime you have, and this is what's happened for, in college sports for a long time now, is you have a bunch of people in a room kind of setting up the parameters of, of the game, but there's one group, there's only one group that's not allowed in that room. And of course, that, like, it's just human nature. That group is going to be the group that is perpetually slighted. So I think that college athletes are in a different space than professional athletes. So having a union, if the college athletes could organize to the point where they would

• 22:10Speaker 01

  just stop showing up, like, to, to games, and that's an impossible thing to ask them because again, it goes back to this, like, this is my one chance. But if they were able to at least threaten that, I think that's how they could get some significant change.

• 22:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  So given the history and the dollars and the emotions that are attached to college sports overall, how likely do you see any kind of substantial evolution or change even in the next 10 or 20 years?

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's it's clear that the opinion in public is shifting towards wanting athletes to be fairly compensated. But I don't know that they're gonna stop watching. So I don't know where the pressure comes from, honestly. I think we're already at a majority of society. I think it's different across age and racial demographics. But there will come a point, particularly as some young people get older, where all adults believe and accept that college athletes should be paid. But this ties in a bit to the union conversation. What is gonna force them to act?

• 23:20Speaker 01

  In the same way that a lockout or a strike is not necessarily going to force owners to act in the same way that I think antitrust exposure would force them to act. I think this is true here, too. It's like, I do think if the players, if collegiate athletes just stop showing up to big time games and tournaments, that would force them to act. But I don't see them doing it because they only have four years of eligibility, which means they only have four years to show professional teams that they're that they're good enough to play. So it's kind of, again, not in their interest to do that. The only other thing is if the if the public stopped watching because of it. And I don't necessarily see that happening. So I'm not sure how we get to this point.

• 24:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  I think the other thing that's tricky is that the guys with the least incentive to change it are the ones for whom the system works, which is to say the stars in the system, right? If you're if you really think that being a college athlete, whether in basketball for one year, or football for three or four years, that you are gonna have a professional career, you don't want to rock the boat because you're there now. So I don't see how they would have an incentive to. Even pretend to want to change, do you?

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think these you linking these two is very important because it's pretty accurate. It isn't in their best interests. Those guys who are on the doorsteps of having professional careers, it's not really in their best interest to to to stop this now. And I think you also bring into account the people who are benefiting most from it, who are not on the field. Like, there is really no benefit to the coaches who because coaches' salaries are inflated because they have extra money because they are not sending it to the players. And the rest of the the teams who are funded by money generated by football and basketball, there's no incentive there. There's just the athletes who don't have much power.

• 25:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  It is interesting that in the NFL, a coach might make a quarter or maybe even a 10th of what his top star player is making, right?

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  But in college, you make infinitely more because, you know, they're all getting zero. If I were to think of someone who could try to get in there and navigate diplomatically and also bust skulls and who knows what they're talking about, I think you're the guy, actually, because, first of all, you've been a professional football player. You were also president of the Players Union in the NFL. But then you're the only person I know of at all, and correct me if I'm wrong, the only person I know of who's ever been associated with the NFL and the NBA is the chief operating officer of the NBA Players Union, correct?

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you've got the two major college sports. You've got those credentials, right? You also happen to have an MBA from Harvard, yes?

• 26:16Speaker 01

  That's a thing.

• 26:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's a thing. So am I wrong to think that you sometimes do think about being the person to try to go downstream from pro sports and into college and say, hey, if you actually want to treat people properly, the place to do it is here. And yes, we do need to blow up the system.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Honestly, and maybe that's like yelling about unfairness from the sidelines and not necessarily getting involved. Maybe that's the wrong way to go about it, but I don't know. I think it's a, I agree with you. It's not complicated, but I do think it's complex. And I think that can be kind of intimidating. And

• 27:04Speaker 01

  I don't know the way. And you brought up business school. One of the things we in the entrepreneurship classes that I took there talk a lot about how little people know about what their business is going to become and how many times it pivots and changes and how not knowing what you're going to do is okay. It's like you kind of bet on on the person more so than the idea. You bet that the person will figure it out. Like, I don't have any clue, honestly, where to start with this. And I think that's more intimidating. I would feel like I feel pretty close to like 85% confident about the idea that unions should decertify in professional

• 27:47Speaker 01

  sports because I fully understand that. I've been through this and I know that if they operate as trade associations, they can still provide a lot of the services to players that players get from the union and it doesn't really hurt them. The scary part is maybe you no longer have a league minimum for players and that creates the tournament thing that you're talking about. Like, I understand the ins and outs. Like, I understand that in a way that I don't understand the landscape of of college sports. And

• 28:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  I guess I just look at it as a thought experiment. If you could take someone that doesn't know anything about sports at all and say, hey, what if we have the system where workers are going to perform a set of tasks, you know, and let's say 50 hours a week for four years at this place, and then they're going to perform essentially the same set of tasks in a different place. And in each case, you know, 80,000 people come and watch them and millions more watch them on TV. But in one case, they get paid, let's say, an average salary of whatever, two, three million dollars a year, and the other they get paid zero, and they're the same people.

• 28:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  How, in what universe does that make any sense? That's, you know, that's kind of the thought experiment that I think would lead to a reassessment that, you know.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  That's the thing is like, another thing that I've come to learn in professional life is that logic is useless in some cases. So like the, the thought experiment that you just took me through is a wonderful one that proves the example, but people don't act based on thought experience. They act in, in reaction to incentives and pressure and those sorts of things. So I think some, a couple of things that we talked about, and I think creating another place, creating real competition, because the fact that they are a monopsony now, meaning that they can, that that's the only place you can go, that exists in part because of the unions, both professional football and basketball.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  So basketball forces the players to be one year removed from, from high school before they can enter the league, which forces them to then find an alternative. Maybe they can go overseas, but if they want to stay in America, they have to play college basketball. Football is three years removed and there is no real viable professional football leagues elsewhere. So you kind of have to go to, to college. I think what the NBA is doing now with the D-league and they've started something called the junior NBA is like, I, I think they're kind of building that infrastructure, whether intentionally or not, they're certainly building an infrastructure to create an academy system that is an alternative to college athletics. And I know they've discussed the idea and they probably are going to remove the one

• 30:25Speaker 01

  and done rule in the next CBA. And I think that some players will start going straight into these NBA academies or into these D-league teams rather than going to college and that might change the system. In football, I don't think they, that there is much hope to change that anytime soon. I guess maybe if basketball changes, then football has to change.

• 30:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, what's to stop me? Let's say I'm an entrepreneur and I say, you know, the NFL Players Association, which is a sworn enemy of the NFL in many cases, in many instances, but they're also colluding with them to basically get free labor for three or four years from all these athletes. What's stopped me from saying, well, why don't I work up an alternative and I will create some kind of league that is pre-professional that would satisfy the NFL draft rules, I guess. On the other hand, they can change those rules at will and put me out of business on day one, I guess, right?

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, I think they could, but I don't think they would. I think the the major problem is network effects. You need to have a critical mass of the best players for the other best players to come because the guys need to hone their skills and they need their skills to be matched up against other players so that you can know. So like, I think maybe for basketball, it's, it might be a little different because it seems to be that often they pick out those guys early on and they, and they turn out to be really good. But with football, if you get the top 50 players, top 50 incoming freshmen to go build a league with you, which I think is, would be really hard to do. But if you do

• 32:02Speaker 01

  that, that's still not even close to enough. You need them. And it's, again, basketball, everyone kind of plays the same position. Like, everyone blocks, shoots, jumps, plays defense. Football, it's like, oh, so we gotta get, it just seems like a really hard thing to do to build a real alternative.

• 32:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. Well, let me ask you this. So the alternative to this, like, the purely cutthroat capitalist version is like the academy model that soccer clubs around the world practice, right? And, um, and there you've often got kids, very young kids, sometimes really eight, nine, 10, but usually, you know, 11, 12, early teens going into academies and basically becoming sort of unpaid professionals, although not fully unpaid. And so like that is an alternative, but A, if you don't make it into the professional level, which the vast majority, just numbers being what they are, won't, then you have

• 32:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  a weird, you've been removed from mainstream education and whatnot for a long time. But also, like, I look at the flip side, you, as an athlete and as a student, like, you may think it would have been better for you to have had the choice between professional sports and a career that was not sports. But on the other hand, you went to college and played sports, they kind of went together. And then even though you say this system is not optimal for anyone, and certainly not for you, you graduated from Maryland, you played in the NFL, you had a union position, then in the NBA as well, and then you got a Harvard MBA. So I could look at that and say, man, I'm really glad that Dominique

• 33:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Foxworth was not sent to a football academy at age 13 to become a semi-professional. So now maybe you're just an outlier, but who knows?

• 33:52Speaker 01

  So, I mean, Jay-Z sold drugs, grew up in Marcy Projects to a single mother. Now he is a multi-multi-millionaire, married to Beyonce, the most amazing talent we have in today. So why don't we set it up so that all young men must sell drugs when their kids and have only their mother and grow up in Marcy Projects in Brooklyn, New York? Like, he had a great talent, and to be honest, like, there's probably a great deal of luck, like, and he'll speak to that, in that he happened to not be there when one of his friends got arrested and his friend didn't snitch on him. Like, that is, like, a lot

• 34:37Speaker 01

  of luck. And that, to me, see, and I think the same thing is true for me. Like, I can go through the course of my life and look at all the things that happen. That were just happenstance that led me to these positions. And I'm not going to say that it's a model that should be, that should be followed. I just understand that there are occasional outliers, but trying to build around that seems crazy.

• 35:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let me ask you a very narrow, specific question, but I'm just curious what you can tell me because again, you're one of the few people I know.

• 35:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  And maybe the only person there is who's, who's been in both the NFL Players Association, had a position in that union and a position in the NBA Players Union. So the two sports, even though we lump them together a lot, pro football and pro basketball, from a labor perspective, they're pretty different, right? So there's 53 on a team in the NFL, just 12 in the NBA. But then additionally, you know, there's visibility. We see the NBA player, we see their faces, NFL, we usually don't. And also the salary, average salary is much, much higher in the NBA in part because there are so many fewer players for the money to go around. With all those differences between two sports that we kind of tend to lump in together,

• 35:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  what are the differences in either what the union tries to accomplish for those labor forces? Or any, any other related differences?

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that the power dynamics are obviously very different between the players and the union and the players in the league. And also consequently, the union and the league. LeBron James, he is more powerful than anybody in the league, any owner, any team, anybody in the union, any player, like he has more power and influence over

• 36:31Speaker 01

  that league than anybody else. There's no one like that in NFL. So that is, is a, as, as are all things. It is a gift and a curse. There is a silver lining and a cloud that comes with having such a concentration of power and influence in any one person. So I think that changes the dynamics. I don't, I think fundamentally, the things that the players want and that the union want to accomplish, they're not very different. Honestly, they're pretty similar in, in what you want to accomplish, but how you go about doing it is very different. So.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Obviously, I wouldn't speak about anything directly that I experienced while I was at either place, but this is one thing that I noticed that while working at the NBA Players Association was the commissioner and LeBron James or the commissioner and Kevin Durant. Like, they are more peers than than anybody else, and they have a relationship and they have conversations. That's not something you have to concern yourself with. And frankly, when we were in negotiations, that was, it was nice to be able to actually be that liaison when I was with the NFL Players Association. It's like, the commissioner and the owners, they did not know how the players felt or

• 37:50Speaker 01

  what the players thought unless they got it from us.

• 37:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you attribute that difference then to the leverage that players have in part because just basketball is different from football? Or do you attribute that to some kind of either history or philosophy or economic leverage that NFL owners have that is really different from NBA owners?

• 38:10Speaker 01

  I mean, I think those all play a part in it, but I think fundamentally, it comes down to value. And I, while I think you brought up that there are fewer players in the NBA and that's part of the reason why the players get paid more, yeah, that's true. But, I mean, LeBron James is more valuable to any single team as a talent or even as a marketing vehicle than anybody in the NFL. So I think that that matters. You can go back through history and like what Michael Jordan was able to create was a model and players, he built on players before him where the best basketball player

• 38:53Speaker 01

  is something that matters and the the best football player is, doesn't matter in that way. Yeah, I'm not sure that. I would also say that the person who is being most taken advantage of, honestly, in all of this, is probably LeBron James.

• 39:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Huh, how do you mean?

• 39:11Speaker 01

  The existence of, of the max salary in basketball. And again, we talk about these relationships and we often just talk about groups as if they're monoliths, like all NBA owners feel like this. All commissioners and people in the league office feel like this. All players feel like this, all unions. It's not true. So I think the rise of the max salary was in part because uh, the NBA owners wanted to, and this was, max salary came before my time, but NBA owners wanted to be able to control uh, the salaries because that's who was driving the salaries up is the best players. Best players drive the salaries up. So NBA owners want to be able to control that.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  And the uh, middle class of players wanted to make more money. So those guys' interests were aligned in that case. Like, let's cap LeBron James. Or let's cap this guy because that'll, that will take more money out of the system and put, allow owners put more in their pockets. But in a cap system, if you have a floor, that also forced them to give more of it to, to us middle guys who aren't really. So what ends up happening is a lot of those guys get more than they frankly are worth. And LeBron James and people like him get a lot less than they deserve.

• 40:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  This happened in the NFL too, didn't it? Right with the, the different um, value attached to draft picks, right? It was that year in the CBA, right? So all of a sudden, the top draft pick was probably worth about like a lot, 30 or 40% less than the same person had been a year before, yeah?

• 40:42Speaker 01

  I would quibble slightly with the word worth and, and say, it was paid, yeah. Because I think um, the worth and how much they paid are, are two different things. But uh, if you had a true, and, and the NBA obviously has, the NFL has a salary cap and the NBA uh, has luxury taxes and a cap, which kind of creates a de facto cap. And Major League Baseball, uh, while it is uncapped, they still have instituted a number of rules that uh, last time I checked, the, the lowest percentage of league revenue goes to baseball players. While they have these enormous contracts, if you put together all the money that's going to players, they are lowest of all the three major sports.

• 41:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  So let me ask you this. Let's say someone listening to you says to themselves, you know, I like sports. I played a little bit in high school, whatever. And like, I think it's an amazing endeavor, right? It kind of scratches some itches that nothing else can. But I also like fairness and, you know, treating people with respect and also paying them what they're worth. How do I reconcile that as a fan of professional sports and college sports, where you're saying there's all kinds of reasons to be frustrated, if not more than that?

• 42:03Speaker 01

  I mean, frankly, you don't. You don't. You don't have to. It's an interesting kind of irony in that sports is a place that we consider it very, a very controlled environment, and it's as close to a meritocracy as we have. And it is kind of, we feel like it is fairness. Like whoever wins on a game on the field is the better team. You aren't necessarily, and it's not, obviously, it's not true in life. Like, the people who win in life are disproportionately people who are from wealthy parents and who had certain connections like that's. But you look at the field, and we convince ourselves that once you step out there, it's all fair,

• 42:44Speaker 01

  and it feels that way. That doesn't extend to the business of sports. And people who are interested in the business of sports, I certainly encourage them to learn more and to get involved in this. But the business of sports is much more business than it is sports. So I understand that there are lots of people who don't care about this and are interested in this. And I am not asking them to care or be interested. I just hope that they don't get in with limited information. Like, I love going to movies, but I don't necessarily want to get into the weeds of all the issues that happen in production.

• 43:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. So talk for a minute about you as an athlete, as a kid. And I'm curious to know what the transition was like when it went from something that you loved to do, for whatever reasons you loved to do it, whether it was pure fun, or competition, or being good, whatever, to the transition to when you realized it was something that was going to be a profession and a career, and how getting into the business of sport changed your view of it.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yes, I was eight when I was like, I decided I wanted to be a professional football player. Actually, I was younger than that. I remember because we lived, my dad was in military, so we lived a couple of different places. And I remember being in an apartment we lived in in Indianapolis. And I told my father I wanted to be a professional football player and he told me. Uh, I don't know if he believed me or not, but I suspect that he didn't, but he told me. All right, well, you set a goal, you should do something to get you closer to that goal every day. And I took that to heart, so I did a bunch of pushups and situps that night until I was throwing up. It's like ridiculous. And then my father, I assumed tried to teach me about moderation the next day.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Like, take some smaller steps.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  I was in love with the game in part because of how violent it was, honestly. And like, whatever warped sense of masculinity I had at that age that probably has not fully left me was like, basketball is for the soft kids. Football is for the men and I want to play football. And I think from, uh, to get back to the original question that you asked. I don't remember not thinking that I was gonna go. It's weird, like, I was young enough then to be naive enough to think, obviously, I'm gonna play in NFL. And as I got to the age to realize not everyone plays in NFL, I also was one of the few kids who colleges wanted to talk to.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  And so I think around high school, when I worked from the time when I was old enough to, or I was too old to go to like summer camp. I started to, to work and that was only two summers before colleges started inviting me to football camps. I would go to those football camps and realize.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Oh shit, this is an audition. Like this isn't, this isn't camp. This isn't football camp. I was, um, I think I was 13 when I went to Art Monks, like full pad football camp. And I didn't get an invitation. I just wanted to go. And I still have the report card that they gave me that said that I maybe could play Division II college football. And then, uh, the next two-

• 46:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  How'd you feel about that?

• 46:05Speaker 01

  I was, um, heartbroken and defiant at the same time. But yeah, everybody has these, those type of stories, but, um-

• 46:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  What position were you playing at the time?

• 46:15Speaker 01

  I was playing running back and safety, which probably part of the problem because they did, they separated us by age at that point and not by weight. And so I was very small and too small to be a running back. But anyway, um, so after that year, then at 14, I was old enough to work. So I worked the next two or the, yeah, I think I worked for, might have the years off, might've been 12 at Art Monk and then 13, 14, I worked, but anyway.

• 46:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  What kind of work did you do those summers?

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Um, I worked at a camp for disabled, like a sleepaway camp for disabled children and adults called Camp Green Top the first year, which was a hell of an eye-opening experience where you have to feed, bathe, change diapers of adults, chase them when they run off and whatever. So that's, that's a whole nother ball of wax. But then the next year I worked at Dragon House Express, the Chinese food restaurant in the mall Food Court. And then the next year I got, started getting invited to football camps and, and that's when it kind of became, it started to become a business when I showed up and it was like, oh, they're like evaluating me.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Like this is, I, this is how I can get a scholarship or cannot get a scholarship. Like this is where the dream either continues to go forward or, or dies and-

• 47:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  And how did that realization affect your performance?

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Um, I, it worked out, so I guess it helped.

• 47:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  I mean, were you, were you intimidated a little bit or were you more like, oh, now I get it. Now this is my business and I'm gonna win.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I, I do my best to be honest and not paint this picture of like, cause I feel like it's easy for me to say, no, then I turned it up another level, which can't actually be true for a 15 year old kid who knows that his whole life is like riding on how well he does at Duke football camp or whatever. So, um, I'm sure I felt some anxiety and some nervousness, but I, I pushed it down, I guess, and I did well enough to, to, to get their attention. But it also felt like, like it felt like the pressure that I wanted, you know? I wanted to be a professional football player. Like I wanted for my, my play to matter.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  And obviously it, it felt like it mattered in my little Pop Warner games, whatever. I'd cry when we lost, but like I knew that nobody cared in the world. But then those were real stakes and I was like, yeah, this is, this is real.

• 48:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Were there other kids from those camps that you remember who also went on to play in the NFL?

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Probably. The, the one person I remember, I went to Penn State's football camp and I remember Adam Telferro, who was older than me. He was the big guy on campus at the time and he was their big recruit. They really wanted him. And I remember like befriending him. He was a few years older than me. Befriending him and kinda looking up and looking up to him like, oh, this is cool. Like this big time guy who was like on the cover of all these newspapers is like, we're friends. And then he ended up going to Penn State and playing safety, I believe, and was paralyzed. And yeah, that's a whole nother avenue to go down.

• 49:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. Well, let's, let's go down that avenue for a minute. You were relatively injury free during high school and college?

• 49:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  And when you would see other guys getting hurt or in an extreme case like, like Adam getting paralyzed, what's your response to that? How do you react?

• 50:04Speaker 01

  I mean, I think it goes back to like my warped ideas of masculinity. As much as I've gotten older and tried to suppress them. I think at that point it was still there and it probably not probably it still is in me at some point. Hopefully I've stifled some of it now, but it was like, yeah, I play this game. And yeah, people get paralyzed. I've been on the field a couple of times where people have been paralyzed. I played in a preseason game in the NFL where a guy died in a locker room afterwards. I was on the field when Kevin Everett was paralyzed. We had practice at Maryland where a helicopter came to take one player off the field. And the coach said, move it down.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  And we kept doing the drills as a helicopter was taking one of our teammates who couldn't move to the hospital. He ended up being okay, but these are all things that that happened. And I, I do kind of remember, I think I was 11 years old, Pop Warner. We were playing against this other team and I had a really good running back. We were tackling the running back. I, I hit him in his leg and it was so many people on him. He hit the ground and it popped and he screamed and we all got up and the bone was sticking through his skin. And it was broken, obviously. And we all went to the sideline and like, we're broken up and we're crying and stuff. And it took a while to get him off the field and the coach was like, yep, we got to finish the game.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  And like that always stands out in my mind as like a, a, a turning point where I was like, this is what you're into and this is what you're going to be confronted with. And from that point forth, I don't think like I was aware of those things, but it never really bothered me. If anything, it was like a badge of honor. Like, yeah, I know this crazy stuff happens. And I go out there and do it anyway because I'm a man or something like that.

• 51:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  You go out there and do it and you don't get hurt doing it. But then, then you did start to get injured as a, as a pro. Can you talk about your first significant injury there?

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was tough. I think from a professional standpoint, more than anything, I was fortunate that it didn't happen a year sooner or or two years sooner.

• 52:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, this is tied to the to the money, right?

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is. Yeah, definitely tied to the money.

• 52:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. So let's walk people through this because a lot of people don't understand how money works in the NFL. You were drafted, I believe, 2005, third round, right? So what I'm looking at here, you were paid for that year, including a signing bonus, which was a lot of it, about $660,000. That sound about right for year one?

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 52:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. And then I guess back then it was a three-year rookie contract. Is that right?

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a three-year rookie contract with a fourth year option, I believe.

• 52:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Gotcha. Okay, so it looks like your first three years paid you a total of about one and a half million dollars. So for, you know, most places in the world, that's amazing. Those first years were in Denver.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I went through the first three years and then I was coming up on the contract year and I played pretty well in Denver and I knew that I needed to play well in this year because if you don't, then the salary minimum goes up for guys after that point. So then they just go get a younger one and you and you go on with the rest of your life. So during week one, we're getting ready for the first week of the season in Denver, they traded me to Atlanta. Atlanta was a terrible football team at that point. It was the year after Vic was gone and they had just drafted a rookie quarterback who no one thought was going to be very good. That was the first time when I considered going to business school.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  My girlfriend at the time, who is my wife now, I remember talking to her then like, yeah, this don't look like it's gonna work out. I'm gonna have to think about business school because I got traded on week one. You normally earn your position during training camp. I skipped training camp. This team's gonna be terrible. I'm not gonna play. Then I'll be out of the league, but.

• 54:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  That year you got paid a little over $900,000, but you must had a pretty good year because the next year you signed a contract with Baltimore that paid you in year one, $8 million, year two, 9.2, and year three, 4.4. Does that sound about right?

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Yep, I was a four-year, 27, I think, in Baltimore. And then the first year, I struggled at the beginning of the season, but I was playing really well towards the end of the season. And Baltimore is the city I grew up in, so it was kind of cool. And then we have like Super Bowl aspirations and I'm playing well coming into the next season and I tore my ACL on the first day of training camp. And I was never the same. So that was, it was kind of the, it felt like my career, like with all the uncertainty and the frankly, fear that I felt going into year four in

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Atlanta, like I was the most confident that I'd ever been. And I was like, oh, this is perfect. Like I'm, I am a Baltimore guy, back in Baltimore, playing well, Super Bowl contender, like we're going to win the Super Bowl. I'm going to have a great season. I'm going to go to the Pro Bowl. Like this is, I'm playing as well as I ever have. People are starting to recognize that I'm good and everything is like, starting to fall into place. And then the ACL pops. I mean, frankly, that's what led me to take on more leadership in the Players Association and led me to be involved in the negotiations, which then is what I used frankly, was the big piece that got me into business school because I didn't have the grades or the background to get into business school, but no one has

• 55:52Speaker 01

  experience like that who's going to business school. So that's what frankly got me into Harvard Business School. So like it, it still turned out to be a good story, but at the time it was. I don't know. I don't, uh, I, obviously I would not say that it was a depression by any stretch, but I do remember um, my wife, and I think she was still my girlfriend then, um, telling me like, go get a haircut. Because like, I was just sitting around the house, going to rehab twice a day and coming home and sitting in front of the TV like, man, just no shaving, no nothing.

• 56:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  What got you out of that?

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Um, I think it's the, the opportunity to do, to be involved in the CBA stuff. It's like, it, it gave me a purpose. Like, um, I think-

• 56:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's lucky you were near DC. Did that matter?

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that absolutely mattered. That absolutely helped and lucky that, um, I'd already had relationships there and I was involved and I was already in a leadership role, but I, I was given so much more time because of it.

• 56:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  So that four-year contract you signed with Baltimore in 2009, it was a four-year, $27.2 million contract. How much of that did you actually collect?

• 56:58Speaker 01

  All of it.

• 56:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  You did. How, how did you have it guaranteed even though you didn't end up playing out the whole contract? You were-

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was on the team for three years. So I got those three years and then the fourth year, I got, um, I had taken out an insurance policy. So I got the rest of it there. So, I mean, that's why I said earlier, I was fortunate that, um, that the knee injury happened after I signed that deal because it would have happened when I was in college or happened a year earlier. I would have been on an entirely different path, which may have turned out to be great, but I really like where I'm at now.

• 57:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let me ask you this. Generally, um, how did the reality as an NFL player match your expectations? You're a kid who, as you told us, from the age of eight or earlier, was seeing yourself playing in the NFL and then you get there and now it really, really, really is business. So I'm curious to know about that.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  My freshman year in college, I, I, I started towards the end of the season. We played well. We won the ACC championship. We went to the Orange Bowl and lost. And then, um, immediately after-

• 58:04Speaker 01

  My head coach got a $10 million extension and that was when I was like, oh, we aren't a team, we're a business. And that was when the light went on for me. I don't know that I would wish it any different, but that's the thing that sucks the most is that when you feel like you're a part of a team and you still have that camaraderie and love for your teammates, but also in the back of your mind, you are also thinking like, hey, I'm out for myself. I remember when, um, uh, in Denver, I had a really good rookie season and and my second year was, was okay. Then, uh, I was kind of scheduled to be the starter opposite Champ Bailey, the other corner the next season.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  And they went and traded for Dre Bly and I loved Dre. He and I became good friends, but it was not lost on me that Dre was messing with my money and my opportunity. And that's like, that sucks. It's not fun to be in that situation. It's not fun to feel that. And, and so I, I didn't consider that because I used to watch every Saturday and Sunday morning, they would do these NFL yearbooks on ESPN and they would run them like, uh, back to back to back and I would get up and watch them all the time. And those do such a great job of telling the story of football. And I believed it, which is not to say that it's not true, but it is incomplete.

• 59:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is part of that story like when the new kid comes to camp or somebody's traded that everybody tries to help them fit in? Even though there is competition for the job, is that part of the story you're saying?

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, that's definitely part of the story and it's, um, it's not untrue because we do help each other. We do care about each other and we are a fraternity, look out for each other. But we're also aware that it's a business and there's only a certain amount of money in the salary cap. And you, and you recognize, all right, if this doesn't work out, what am I gonna do? If it didn't work out in Atlanta and I was out of the league after that year, I'd have been 26 year old with, um, no real experience. Like, I mean, being a football player does not qualify you to do anything short of being a bouncer, I guess. And I know real experience, um, and I'm so far removed from college that it's like, what am I gonna do? And I, I have a bank account that is much larger than most other, other 26 year olds.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  But still, I got a whole lot of life left to live and it's a, it's not a great situation to be in. It's not like awful, obviously, but. You do feel that pressure. You're thinking about that and you're thinking about if you have kids at the time. Or if you have family members that are depending on you, you're like, oh, well, as much as I love this guy, as much I want him to do well. Like, like, I need this.

• 1:00:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what was Ashley, your then girlfriend, now wife, what was she, what was her position now? Cause I know Ashley a little bit and I know that she's not one to like, let things happen as, as they're gonna, right? She's like, have a plan, make it work. What was her advice to you?

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't, I don't think she gave me much advice at the time. She was in law school at the time. And she's much smarter than me. She's, like, I know a lot of people say that because like, it seems like the, like, nice thing to say, but like, it's.

• 1:01:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  No offense, I'll say it's pretty obviously true. She's.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  It is actually very true. She, she went to the, we met at Maryland and she went to, to the law school at Harvard. Well before I went to the business school up there, but she, I was more stressed than she was, I think about it. Yeah, cuz.

• 1:01:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you think in the back of her mind, she's thinking, it's okay, cuz I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a lawyer and I can carry him if I need to? Do you think that was part of it?

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  I don't think so, honestly. It's like, I don't, as she tells it now, is like, she knew that I was going to be successful and that was one of the things that was attractive.

• 1:02:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  You mean beyond football or in football?

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  No, just in general. Like, I don't think, I don't think she knew that I was going to be successful at football. I don't think she knew what I would do professionally, but the way that she tells it is she knew that I would be successful. So that was why she was not concerned, but I didn't know that.

• 1:02:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, does that say more about her or about you? In other words, does it say more about her, like, the kind of man I'm gonna pick? I'm not gonna pick someone who's not gonna be successful. Do you think it was more?

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, you've been hanging out with her cuz that's kind of the story that she tells. Yeah, I think that, I think she, those are things that she think, that I think she found most attractive about me. It's like, I was mature and focused and like. And the idea that, I think the example of it is I was already looking at business schools because I had already, I was obviously going to be all in on this season. I'm going to make this season work, but I know that there's a possibility that it's not going to work and I'm not going to wake up tomorrow and be like, oh, now what?

• 1:03:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, yeah. What about, did you ever think about politics?

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Um, I've been told that a lot and I guess I've given it some thought, no more than a couple of hours and I hate it.

• 1:03:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, because why?

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  It seems terrible. Um, because it seems like you, well, the, the money in politics is one thing, like you're constantly fundraising, you're not actually getting to affect any change. And I guess it depends on what level of politics you're going to or whatever, but it, it often feels like a, a kind of a trophy head and to be a good politician, you are kind of always looking for the next angle, the next office or the next person who's going to give you some money. Like, I don't know, that, that does not interest me at all.

• 1:03:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up after a quick break, Dominique Foxworth on his first big job after football.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  I was getting up at like 6:30 to ride the subway to work with a bunch of other people who weren't happy about where they were going to work.

• 1:04:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  And player safety and the future of football.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  I don't see why my son needs to play.

• 1:04:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  And if you haven't heard it yet, check out our entire Hidden Side of Sports series on any podcast app or on Freakonomics.com. We'll be right back.

• 1:04:24Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:05:07Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:05:28Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:06:16Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:06:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Welcome back. Let's return now to our lately edited full interview with Dominique Foxworth, recorded for our Hidden Side of Sports series. So you're like a little ways into your athletic afterlife. Now, you're about 35 years old, is that right, Dominique?

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:07:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you've been out of football for several years now. Where do you feel you are in your athletic afterlife? Are you still kind of at the beginning? And I'm curious to know what you see, how you see it playing out.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  So I was president of the Players Association of NFL while I was playing. And after business school, I went to the NBA Players Association. And I, I am in a weird state, frankly. I don't know how to, it feels like a state of transition, which, but it feels like I shouldn't be in a state of transition, if that makes any sense. So like, my, my whole life since I was a kid was like, very, I had a very clear goal, and I worked towards that goal. And I made lots of decisions that would get me closer to that goal, but get me further away from other important and interesting things, including friends and including family.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  And, and then I was like, all right, I'm done playing. So I will be in this state of transition. Business school was like, all right, this is my transition state. And then I'll take this job at the NBA Players Association, and then I'll be back to like, a steady state. But I didn't like it. And I left.

• 1:08:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Because why? The NBA position?

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was the chief operating officer there. And I mean, there was a lot of things going on at the time, a lot of transition there. But being a chief operating officer was something that sounded good and paid well, and I was very proud of. But it's a lot of operating, frankly, which is like, I remember living in New York, and my wife was pregnant with our third child, and she was not feeling good. And I was getting up at like, 6:30 to ride the, the subway to, to work with a bunch of other people who weren't happy about where they were going to work. And, and I'd be there till like, 7:00 at night, like, working, working, working, working. And, and I remember being on the subway thinking like, Am I happy?

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Like, I have enough money that I don't have to be unhappy. Like, all these people who are on here with me, they like, they have to go to work. And I was like, I don't have to go to work. So then I quit and I started writing for fun and that's what landed me at ESPN. But to be completely frank with you, like, there's some focus and clarity that scarcity kind of brings to your life. And I don't say this because like, I want to go back to a state when I was not sure financially. Like, I like being in a comfortable financial state, but there's something to be said for the focus and clarity of, oh, no, I gotta do this because I gotta feed my family. And when you don't have that focus and clarity, there is something a bit frightening, honestly,

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  about always feeling like, what should I be doing with this gift, frankly, that I, that I have? This gift of, of flexibility and independence. And sometimes in the job that I have now, like, I, I went to business school in part because I fancy myself as a smart person who's more than an athlete and I wanted to get away from this. So like, there's parts of me that's like embarrassed that I like write about sports and talk about sports. But then there's parts of me that's like, this is awesome. Like, it's kind of flexible. I get to do fun things. I get to be, pick up my kids from school and take them to school.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  And, and so it just depends on the day where sometimes I'm like, I should be chasing like some big professional glory and I'm wasting time. Or some days I'm like, I'm doing just exactly what I should be doing. Or I'm like, well, I should be spending more time with my kids and my wife because I have this flexibility. So when you have that scarcity to focus your thought, there, it's very clear what you should be doing. And I think that, that's a, it's a, it's an interesting thing to happen to somebody at this age. It feels like more of a midlife thing. And for athletes, it's a unique thing. Successful athletes is a unique thing that in your twenties or thirties, you're like, now what?

• 1:11:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, everything you said just makes sense to me, but I'm also curious if there's one more element that plays into that, which is that sports is maybe singularly thrilling to do. And I say maybe, you know, if you play music at a high level, I mean, it's probably silly to say that sports are the only one, but because of the, the nature of what it is and the competition, it's thrilling. I mean, look how thrilled people are to watch it and you guys are the ones who are doing it. And I just wonder if part of what's, you know, contributing to your sort of malaise is just the, the possibility that that thrill is irreplaceable.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think that's a reasonable thing to think, but it doesn't feel like that to me. Like, I don't feel like I'm missing that thrill. Like, it's not something that I feel like I want. I think the, the, the feeling of, of uncertainty is the feeling that I have more than anything. It's not that like, oh, my life is boring. It's like, am I doing the right thing? Am I doing the best thing I can with this fortunate situation that I'm in? And I think like, it's where it is connected to sports in some way, but

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  also like exacerbates it, I think, is a feeling of loneliness, honestly, which, and it's not like I have three kids and my wife and I'm not like alone, obviously, and I love them and I have fun with them. And, but throughout my life, I have been almost myopically focused on a goal, which being focused on that goal like gave me purpose. And I'm sure I'm gonna butcher the, the Nietzsche quote, but it's something to the effect of, uh, when a man has a why, he can bear almost any how. And like, I don't drink now. I never drank in

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  my life. I never smoked weed. Like, I was singularly focused on doing everything. Every decision I made was like, all right, I'm gonna get close to this goal. And I, My, the people who I was close with in high school, like, those aren't my friends anymore. People I was close with in college, like, not really my friends anymore. And then at thirty-five, I'm in DC where my wife has a bunch of family and friends, friends that she's been close with since they were in the second grade. And like, and I'm like, eh, I don't really have that. And like, I was making these choices, which I thought were choices to get me.

• 1:13:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  What you wanted.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  Right. And, and I was in, there were choices that I was making that I was unaware that I was making. Like, I didn't realize at the time that I was foregoing, like, lasting, long-lasting relationships. I think lots of athletes do the opposite and bring their friends and family along with them. And then they are making a decision and they're a whole nother, a whole mess of problems that you get from that. So, there is no right way to do it. And I, I am very happy with where I am in my life. And, and while you're a professional athlete, you walk around with this skepticism, frankly, of all new people in your life. So even if there were, like, the potential of some great friendships, like, I wasn't open to them.

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  I'd go to these places, people like, oh, you're a football player. And I'd pretend and be nice to them because that's what you do. And they'd pretend or whatever, it'd be into me because that's what you do and then you move on. And, and then you're thirty-five and you're like, hey, you haven't talked to your best friend from high school in ten years. Or, or something like that. So I, I mean, I think that, I certainly don't like feel sad or anything, but these are things that I am becoming more aware of now. And I think I said to my wife a couple of days ago that I feel like I'm in a, like a perpetual state of transition, which is interesting and uncomfortable at the same time.

• 1:15:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  What are some of the, the other things you've tried? You mentioned the NBA Players Association job. What are some other things that you tried that you thought would make you excited or happy and didn't?

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  So it's not that they didn't, it's that they that they don't. You know, so like, like I mentioned, it's it's no matter. And I'm starting to kind of understand that, and this goes back to the scarcity point where if there is something there to make the decision for you, it's it feels somewhat easier. But I imagine that everyone can relate to this, that when you're at work, sometimes you're like, man, I really wish I was with my kids, or I really wish I was partying. Or when you are with your family, you're like, man, particularly if you like your job, you kind of want to be at work, or you

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  might want to go on a guys' trip, or you might want to go on a romantic vacation with your wife. Like, there's so many things that you want to do. And but there are things for so many people that they have to do, you know. So when I'm in this position, where it's like, all right, I want to do this. And then I'm doing it. I'm like, but I kind of want to do some of that. And then it's and like, it even breaks down into professional where it's like, all right, I want to like, just chase professional glory. I want to be like, work my way up to the top of some company. And like, I think I'm capable of doing that. Like, I feel like I have the intelligence or charisma and pedigree academically

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  to get in those positions. But that requires you to like, not be home a lot. And like, there's part of me that wants that. But then there's part of me that's like, I want my kids to look back and like, hey, my dad picked me up from school a couple of days a week. I don't know.

• 1:17:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  So this ambivalence, you never had any of this, though, when you were chasing the NFL dream, did you?

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  No, this is brand, this is brand new. Like, it was quite clear to me that there were two things. I need to get paid, and we need to win. And anything that was not in line with that. Was like, all right, it's obviously, I don't need to do this. And I think maybe I was more extreme version of it than a lot of people, like to the, to point that like, I don't drink and stuff like I, I don't have like some religious thing against drinking. I just never have it is, and I, I didn't when I was in high school, when probably a lot of people start because I was like, no, that's going to make me a worse football player. One of my best friends in high school actually sold drugs and got a little bit

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  of a time for it. And when he was selling and occasionally smoking, I was like, nah, I'm a football player. Like even our presidents over the, the years have experimented with marijuana. Like it feels like for me and some even cocaine. For me, it was like, no, there's one thing to do. And now I'm at this point where it's like, I don't really know how to have fun. I don't really have like super close friends and I don't really know what to do with my life, but I'm pretty happy still.

• 1:18:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hmm. So it sounds, um, to me at least, that you built an identity that was, you know, focused, really strongly focused on, on sport, on football.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  But there are a million parts of what identity means. It means, you know, who you know, and what you do with them and what you put in your body and so on. And that now you still have the identity, but you don't have the thing that you, you know, built it for. I mean, it's got to be a little baffling in a way. Like you are the person you made and to succeed, and then you did succeed. And now it's like, what, what next?

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  I mean, I think most people's journeys are so much longer that when they do succeed, they like die a few years after or something, you know?

• 1:19:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's your problem. That's your problem here. Yeah. I mean, that's what's always attracted me about the idea of the afterlife of an athlete is it's unnatural.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  You know, most people like they pursue something for their whole life, or it's not so, you know, specific that they basically are told to stop doing it when they're 35 because, you know, they're too slow or whatnot.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  And yet, like, you can't, like, ask, like, you got a lot of money in the bank. You can't ask people to feel sorry for you on that front plainly.

• 1:19:41Speaker 01

  No, I'm certainly like, there's this, to be clear, like, this conversation is not at all about me wanting sympathy or feeling sorry like that.

• 1:19:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, yeah, no, no, I didn't, I didn't mean to imply.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, there, there's nobody that I want to trade places with, but I just, I mean, that doesn't mean that there aren't things that.

• 1:19:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, but you have a serious case of grass is greenerism, it sounds like.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  It feels that way, right? To the point that you made about the, I am the person that I, I made, uh, one of my classes in business school, one of the, the, it was, it was surprising, I, I went to business school before, um, after I finished playing, I went to business school because I was like, all right, now I'm gonna keep competing, like, I'll go to the best business school and I'm gonna turn this 27 into 200. And then I got there and surprisingly, as I'm sure Harvard has like a bad stereotype or a bad reputation for like, creating money, hungry, like, people with low ethics. I'm sure there are plenty of them coming out, but I was surprised with like how much mushy, soft classes that we had.

• 1:20:45Speaker 01

  That was about, um, our feelings and integrity and all that stuff. And I do remember one of the professors said that, it wasn't to me directly, it was just to the class, but it felt like he was talking to me directly. And I didn't really like this professor necessarily, so I hate to give him credit, but he said something to the effect of, the operating system that you use to, to get here may not be the operating system that you need going forward. And like, that resonated with me because, like, I feel like that's definitely true for me. But, I don't know, they don't just like release, um, updates for humans, so like, modifying my operating system is, is, is a slower, more challenging process.

• 1:21:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. What was the professor's name?

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  I don't remember.

• 1:21:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  I didn't like him because the first day he said to me, like, obviously, I was the football player there, and that was part of my identity. He sized me up and was like, aren't you kind of small for a football player? I was like, I will whoop your ass in this classroom. But he was actually a pretty good professor, though.

• 1:21:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Mm-hmm, alright. So, let me ask you this. You are a scholar, at least an amateur scholar, of the civil rights movement.

• 1:21:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can you just talk for a second about the relationship between the civil rights movement per se and sports? Areas where there's overlap, maybe where one movement is way ahead or behind of the other? And I'm certainly, you know, got in the back of my mind, the anthem protests that are a big piece of this conversation right now. I'm curious to know what you have to say about that.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, there's something, like, at least in America, there is something black about professional athleticism. Like, the players are largely black, and particularly in the big two sports, a lot of the culture that seeps out of the game into our pop culture come from black players. And there's a lot of people who want to separate race from sports. And they say they want to kind of go back to how it was and when race and sports were separate, but it never was.

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  Like, it was, it always, it always has been intertwined. Like, race is, is probably the most, particularly in America, it's like, the most defining characteristic of our country is like, how we have dealt with race, and it is always involved in everything. And obviously, there were, like...

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  The sixties, obviously, no one can say that race and sports weren't connected. But I think people point to like the periods after that from the seventies, eighties to the nineties. And they would say that those were times when race and politics and social issues were not in sports. But I still think they were because the players were still dealing with it. Whether the media was putting attention on it or whether people were willing to address it or talk about it. Like it was a thing that was always there. So that frustrates me. So I don't, I don't necessarily feel like, well, I do accept that we're in a state now as a country where it is unavoidable, the intersection. I don't feel like it ever went away. Like it's not a new intersection. It's just, we happen to be on that corner altogether at once.

• 1:24:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's funny you say that because the thing that struck me most about when Colin Kaepernick first decided to protest police violence by sitting and then kneeling during the anthem. The thing that struck me is it felt so mild compared to some past protest moves like, you know, nineteen sixty eight Olympics. I mean, that, that was a big deal. And then it also struck me, the response also struck me as so overwrought that again, it felt like pre sixties in a way. Like, didn't we, like, haven't we done this? And shouldn't the conversation be way ahead of this?

• 1:24:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  But maybe that's because it is, at the end of the day, all about just race and not even race in sports, race in politics, et cetera. Do you think that's what it's really about then?

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's not about the issues. It's not about the posture you take when you are, when the national anthem is being played. Like it's something that I, as a father, I've come to kind of recognize that adults aren't very different from, from children. They just, adults learn how to justify and how to kind of validate their actions and decisions. Whereas if my son does something ridiculous and I ask him why, like he looks at me like I'm crazy. Like, how you ask me why? Or, or, or he'll just say like, I, I took some cookie and like, why? I wanted a cookie.

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  Like, okay, yeah, yeah, that's, that's fair. And I think that people, to a certain degree, even if it is subconscious, they do what feels right, or what makes them happy, or what makes them feel good. And then they're like, all right, now let me concoct this post hoc justification, whether it's conscious or unconscious. And I think that's what's happening. And I mean, we see it with the, with the anthem stuff. It's like, all right, sitting down during anthem is a problem. Kneeling, and then you move from there to kneeling. So kneeling's then a problem. Raised fist is a problem. And now we see that staying in the locker room is a problem. Let's just be honest about it.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  Like, you don't like these people making any statement, and it makes you uncomfortable, and you don't like it. So you're not gonna like it, no matter how they get it across. Like, there's no, and that's the, one of the things that's been most frustrating about this, is they're like, no, I understand, but this is the wrong time, or this is the wrong way. Like, no, there is no right time. There is no right way. You should be more like Martin Luther King. Like, Martin Luther King was assassinated, and large majority of white society was not happy with him advocating for advanced rights. Like, I don't know. It just feels like there's just, no matter what, there are people, and it's, it's a trap that I think we often get caught in, and not just in this case, but just in general, where it's like, all right,

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  we're going to try to satisfy everybody, or we're gonna try to satisfy this group. Like, you, some people don't wanna be satisfied. They wanna be angry. Let them be angry.

• 1:27:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  If you were still playing in the NFL, and first day of the season happens, what do you do during the anthem?

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, I think at this point, I, you, I probably stand up, because there's not much, and I mean, it's easier, easy to say now. I don't, I don't know. So that's, I'd like to say that I would be in solidarity with those guys, and I would have the courage to expose myself to. The hate that they're receiving, but I mean, I don't, I don't know. It's easy to say now from the sidelines.

• 1:28:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm just gonna ask one last question if I can.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:28:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Two part question. Number one, you played professional and college and high school football. So you can't not think about long term brain damage since that's a, a big piece of all conversations about football these days. So I'm curious to know whether you feel a little bit like you're living with a time bomb in your head and related to that. I'm curious to know what happens if and when your son wants to play football.

• 1:28:38Speaker 01

  So I'll take the second one first, so slightly easier. It's like I, um, he's only five now and I say no. I mean, it's not a problem that we're actually facing at this point, but I would say no. And I, I mean, I.

• 1:28:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  So if he comes to you and says, Hey dad, I know, you know, before I was born, you were, you know, amazing NFL player, da da da, great career, et cetera. What do you mean no? What's, what, what are you, what are you talking about?

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I think the, the research wasn't there. I, I suspect my parents would not have let me play when I was that age if there was information available and like it's, it's not even clear information, but what is clear is that it, it does put you at higher risk. Like my son doesn't need those things. Like the best case scenario is that you play professional football and you make a lot of money. Like I, I wasn't, I was far from poor growing up, like middle class, but like I went to Baltimore County Public Schools. I, I was, I guess that's not my son's experience. I didn't have access to the things that he'll have access to. So like I, I frankly think that he is starting in a much better place than I am. So he should do much better than.

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  Then banging his head into other people's head for money like it seems like a step back to me, honestly.

• 1:29:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  And, and so, uh, kinda on a macro scale, does that mean that as football goes forward? And I guess if football goes forward, um, which obviously in the short term it will, but in the long term, it's a question, does that mean that the only people that play it are going to be, you know, the people who need to play it to try to make the money that they can't make otherwise?

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  It kinda feels like outside of quarterback position, it's, it's already gravitated to that, like, uh, both prior to, to now.

• 1:30:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  But I mean, you got guys, you know, the San Francisco 49ers, for instance, they have a few guys, they've had a lot, there've been a lot in the league who went to Stanford. So these are football players that go to Stanford, they get a Stanford degree. There's a lot of ways they can now make a living. So there's obviously more about the appeal of playing at that level than just making the money, yeah?

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. No, I mean, football players, athletes are still heroes in our society, and it's something that people, particularly young boys, will aspire to. I understand that, but I do think that the danger is something that's gonna push people away from it in a way that it drew people to it in the past. So I, I, I, I mean, it's not, football's not by any stretch dead, and there is still hope that they could find ways to modify the game or improve equipment or whatever and make it safer. But until they do, like, I don't see why my son needs to play, but I don't judge anybody else. Your son can do what you want your son to do. That's just not for my son.

• 1:31:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  And then what about you? Do you worry about your brain? Does your wife worry about your brain?

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Uh, absolutely. I mean, I, I do. It's, it's something that I think lots of players, um, talk about and think about. And every time there is like, it could just be like general aging, like you don't know where your keys are, like it's, like you're living a horror movie, honestly, where it's like this thing lurking in the background that like you, you hear noises, but you don't necessarily know if that's like just a regular noise or if that is a, a monster. And that's like what I analogize it to where it's like, all right, I can't find my keys. Like that to me feels like, oh, is this a signal? Or is this just something, whatever? And so, I mean, it's, it's scary. And I think

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  that what is most frightening is right now, I would do it all over because of what it's done for me and my family. And I think most players would agree with that. Except for the ones who killed themselves. Like, I, I have been sad before, obviously, but I don't know that darkness. Like, I, I don't know. I've never, ever in my life, like, gave any realistic consideration to ending my own life and trying to, and I mean, I invite you or anybody else to, like, try to wrap your head around how sad, like, depressed, how dark you must feel to see death as, as

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  relief, as a way out. And I imagine if I were ever to feel that way, or for people who do feel that way, they don't say, like, I would go back and do it all over again. I would imagine in that moment, they would give up all the fame, all the money, all the success, all the women, or whatever else that, all the trappings of this, to not be in a place where you feel like the only exit is to end your life. So like, that's very dark and very difficult to deal with, but I, I've never been there. I hope never to get there, but until then, like, I feel like I'm happy with the decisions

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  that I've made and I will continue to live as happy and productive a life as I can.

• 1:33:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, on that note, let me just thank you for a really great conversation and wish you and your family all the best, and I hope you find the greenest pasture possible.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  And then find a greener one.

• 1:34:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  That was Dominique Foxworth on Twitter. He's at Foxworth24. Hope you enjoyed this full conversation. He appears throughout our Hidden Side of Sports series, including episode numbers 349, 351, and 365. Thanks again to him, and thanks to you for listening. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Dubner Productions. Our Hidden Side of Sports series was produced by Anders Kelto and Derek John, with lots of help from Harry Huggins, Alison Kreglo, and Alvin Melathe. We also had help from Rebecca Douglas and Nellie Osborne, and our staff also includes Greg Rippon and Zach Lepinski. The music you hear throughout our episodes was composed by Luis Guerra. Our show can also be heard

• 1:34:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  on NPR stations across the country. Check your local station for the schedule, also on Sirius XM, Spotify, even your better airlines. Thanks for listening.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  Stitcher.

• 1:35:03Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:36:44Speaker 02

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