289. How Stupid Is Our Obsession With Lawns?

Nearly two percent of America is grassy green. Sure, lawns are beautiful and useful and they smell great. But are the costs — financial, environmental and otherwise — worth the benefits?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 0:46Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:27Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:11Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Where I live, in the great northeast of the United States, spring has finally gone full bloom and summer is right around the corner. When you get outside, it's beautiful. The trees, the flowers, and of course, the lawns. Who doesn't love a good lawn? It looks good, smells good, feels good. For a lot of people, a lawn is the perfect form of nature. Even though, let's be honest, the lawns we like don't actually occur in nature. Even though the process of producing such a lawn is full of the most unnatural activity. Even though this unnatural slice of nature requires so many inputs.

• 3:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  The water, the fertilizer, the weed killers, the mowers and trimmers and the leaf blowers, the fuel to power all this machinery, the fuel to power the trucks to transport the people who run the machinery. All in pursuit of the perfect lawn.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  From WNYC Studios, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 4:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Give me briefly, as you can, a history of the lawn.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  If you go look at the Oxford English Dictionary and try to find the word lawn, you'll see that it dates from the 16th century, from Old English for an open space, or what was called the glade.

• 4:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ted Steinberg is a history and law professor at Case Western Reserve.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  I'm the author of several books, including American Green, The Obsessive Quest for the Perfect Lawn. And these lawns, as it were, that existed back in 16th, 17th, 18th century England were typically found on estates.

• 4:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, talk about how America got into lawns and the degree to which they upped the game.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  So, lawns go way back in American history. Washington and Jefferson, of course, had lawns. Nevertheless, even well into the 20th century, people, especially working-class people, were more concerned with, how shall I say, the use-value of their yards as opposed to the exchange-value of the landscape. And what I mean by that is that working-class people would raise small livestock in their yards or raise vegetables. That said, the really big expansion in the lawn scape, if I can call it that, happened after the Second World War with suburbanization.

• 5:33Speaker 03

  This is Levittown, one of the most remarkable housing developments ever conceived.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  Between 1947, 1951 or '02 or so, the Levitts mass-produced some 17,000 homes on what had been a bunch of potato fields on Long Island and New York. Well, every one of those 17,000 homes had a lawn surrounding it. If you look back at the deeds for Levittown and other places, you'll find that there are covenants in them requiring the owner of the new Levittown home to mow their yard once a week.

• 6:13Speaker 03

  Yes, that old potato patch has come to a good end.

• 6:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Today, Americans spend roughly $60 billion a year in what's known as the turf grass industry. This covers lawn supplies, lawn services, and so on. That figure includes sports fields, commercial properties, and private lawns. Lawns account for about 2/3 of the total square footage. And how much square footage is that?

• 6:40Speaker 04

  That's about 14.5 million acres of turf.

• 6:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Christina Malazey.

• 6:45Speaker 04

  I'm a scientist by training, and I worked for NASA for over 10 years.

• 6:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Today, Malazey is an independent environmental scientist. 40-odd million acres of turf. For reference, that is bigger than Iowa. Malazey hadn't set out to measure the size of America's lawn, in fact, quite the opposite.

• 7:08Speaker 04

  I was working to map the amount of paved area in the United States.

• 7:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Mapping out paved areas included using satellite data that measured nighttime light emissions.

• 7:19Speaker 04

  Light emission that come from basically turning on streetlights at night.

• 7:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  She and her team also used aerial photography, which of course showed more than just paved areas.

• 7:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, we also took measurements of how much lawn area there was and how many shrubs, shrub area and tree area.

• 7:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that's how they came up with 40.5 million acres of turf, which is just a bit less than 2% of the United States. Paved areas meanwhile, make up just 1.3%. The sheer volume of grass got Malazi thinking.

• 7:51Speaker 04

  How are lawns actually functioning as an ecosystem? We use water, but also fertilizer and pesticides. And then we use lawn mowers and leaf blowers. But they're plants, so they photosynthesize, they absorb carbon. What's the balance between what we put in and what we put out? And so I decided that this would be a worthwhile question to ask.

• 8:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  The specific question being whether lawns are, from a carbon perspective, net positive or net negative. She began by trying to tally how much water people use on their lawns. The standard recommendation, especially where rainfall doesn't do the job, is one inch of water per week.

• 8:30Speaker 04

  And I came up to some numbers that I could not believe.

• 8:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  What were these unbelievable numbers? The total was about 20 trillion gallons per year on lawn watering. Want a little context for that number? Consider that we use just 30 trillion gallons to irrigate all our crops. Next, Malazi calculated how much carbon the turf grass stores in the soil.

• 8:56Speaker 04

  And then I subtracted from it the amount of carbon that was associated with nitrogen, the fertilization, and the amount of carbon that was emitted by using a typical lawn mower.

• 9:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what'd she learn?

• 9:13Speaker 04

  I learned that the turf would become a sink of carbon. And this is not surprising. A plant, given plenty of attention, photosynthesizes carbon. But it comes at the cost of producing the fertilizer or mowing the grass and all the industry that comes around it.

• 9:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  So even with those costs included, lawns look pretty good from a carbon perspective. On the other hand, Malaysia's model didn't include inputs like the carbon emissions from the trucks that lawn crews drive or the original manufacturer of all that lawn care equipment, nor did it include the energy used to deliver water to households and clean it for human consumption.

• 9:55Speaker 04

  We should not forget that this is drinking water. I did not account for those costs.

• 10:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  And as just about any economist will tell you, water is often woefully underpriced, which can lead to overuse, especially if you're growing a grass species that wasn't meant to grow where you live.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Kentucky bluegrass or creeping bandgrass evolved in the cool, moist climes of northern Europe.

• 10:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ted Steinberg again.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  And it's not all that easy to grow them here in the continental United States and especially in arid parts of North America. If you go to California, you'll find still lawns with cool-seasoned turf grass. Every square foot of that turf grass requires 28 gallons of water, roughly speaking, per year, every square foot. But that's for the coastal environment. If you move inland to a more arid part of California, that number increases to 37 gallons of water or more per square foot of lawn.

• 11:06Speaker 05

  We waste so much water.

• 11:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Eric Garcetti.

• 11:08Speaker 05

  I'm the mayor of the city of Los Angeles.

• 11:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  We spoke with Garcetti last year when California was deep in drought. In Los Angeles, lawns and landscaping use a whopping 50% of Los Angeles's water. And the drought had doubled what the city was paying to import water. So Garcetti used incentives to change behavior. The city paid residents. To install rain barrels to capture water for their lawns, it paid them to replace their lawns with drought tolerant plants.

• 11:36Speaker 05

  I said, if you have a lawn and you're using it, great, keep it and pay for the water to water it. But if you're not, well, let us pay you to switch that out to beautiful flowering green plants that use a lot less water. And we were able to do that with over 50 million square feet of lawn just in the last couple of years. We reduced our water in the face of this drought, our water usage by 19% without having to find anybody, without having to, you know, crack down with the water police, but by inspiring people through public education and rebates, giving them free cisterns, changing out their toilets, all those sorts of things.

• 12:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  What works in California won't necessarily work elsewhere. And California is more aggressive than most with environmental regulations. For instance, it's currently pushing to lower emissions on lawn care equipment, which tends to have particularly dirty little engines. They're also really noisy.

• 12:27Speaker 06

  If you just hear the sound of a leaf blower, it has these really interesting low frequency and high frequency components.

• 12:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Erica Walker. She just got her PhD in environmental health at Harvard.

• 12:38Speaker 06

  So not only is it traveling inside of your walls, but it has this high pitched hum that's just really annoying.

• 12:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  In Boston, Walker helped compile a citywide noise report, which mapped, among other things, leaf blower annoyance levels. A lot of places have banned leaf blowers or restricted their hours, especially the noisier gas powered models. Walker was interested in the relationship between noise and public health in a city like Boston.

• 13:05Speaker 06

  Sleep disturbance is, I think, the direct relationship between sound and negative health.

• 13:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  The World Health Organization suggests that daytime noise levels shouldn't exceed 55 decibels. Walker wondered how leaf blowers registered, even if you weren't the one blowing the leaves.

• 13:24Speaker 06

  We see that even when you move 400 feet away from the point of operation, you're still getting sound levels that are in excess of what the World Health Organization recommends for daytime sound levels. But then we also learned that these leaf blowers have a Strong contribution from the lower frequencies. It has an ability to travel very long distances and penetrate through the walls. So it's really hard to mitigate. And we see in the epidemiological literature that low-frequency sound is creating negative health effects above and beyond high-frequency sound.

• 14:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  So what have we learned so far? We have a lot of lawn in America, and our pursuit of the perfect lawn is noisy and resource and labor-intensive. Lawns do, however, serve as carbon sinks, and of course, they're beautiful, at least many people think so, and useful for playing, for picnicking, for relaxing. Coming up on Freakonomics Radio, we love lawns so much, we even plant them beside our highways.

• 14:39Speaker 07

  A standard cloverleaf takes up about 16 acres of lawn.

• 14:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  And if you don't want to have a lawn in your yard, what can you have?

• 14:47Speaker 08

  You know, I think the best year I had was like 2,000 pounds of sweet potatoes.

• 15:00Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 15:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Just head to granola.ai/freakonomics. That's granola.ai/freakonomics to get your time back. Try it for free at granola.ai/freakonomics.

• 16:03Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 16:46Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 17:08Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 17:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Why did we make this episode about the costs and benefits of lawns? Mostly because of you. Occasionally, we ask Freakonomics Radio listeners for story ideas, especially for what we colloquially call our stupid stuff series. That is, things we do or use or submit to that are, on some level, kind of stupid.

• 18:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, last time we asked for your stupid stuff ideas, quite a few of them concerned lawns. Pat Allen from Trinity, Florida, wrote, "What is up with the American addiction to lawns?" John Faulkner of Arlington, Virginia, complained about noisy, smelly lawn mowers. And then there was Alan Turner.

• 18:23Speaker 07

  I'm from Newcastle, Delaware. My formal training, my initial career, was in landscape architecture. And right now, I'm looking the highway median at the rest stop on I-95 just south of Wilmington, Delaware.

• 18:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Turner's pet peeve is what's in that highway median: grass.

• 18:42Speaker 07

  And it looks like this grass gets mowed three times in the summer, let's say.

• 18:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's not just in highway medians, but also those cloverleaf interchanges.

• 18:51Speaker 07

  A standard cloverleaf takes up about 16 acres of lawn.

• 18:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Turner understands why these are all grass.

• 18:57Speaker 07

  Grass is cheap. Grass is the cheapest ground cover you can install. The problem with grass is that it's also the most expensive ground cover to maintain.

• 19:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  And it has to be maintained, mowed especially, for safety, for good sightlines. So you've got all that mowing and all those traffic delays when the mowers are out there in the medians. Turner's idea is to plant highway medians with plants that don't require maintenance, like grass does.

• 19:23Speaker 07

  The seed might cost slightly more, but that's the only difference. And then you'd get a permanent ground cover that needs no mowing.

• 19:31Speaker 09

  I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever been asked to talk to anybody about roadside vegetation management.

• 19:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Doug Heacock's with the Federal Highway Administration, which advises states on how to maintain their highway grass.

• 19:46Speaker 09

  Nobody asks us about plants. They ask us about traffic and potholes. But I think conservatively, we've got about 17 million acres of roadside vegetation.

• 19:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Roadside grass dates back to the early days of auto travel.

• 20:00Speaker 09

  Having a grassy area near the road in case somebody broke down or wanted to just rest after this ordeal of driving around was a very tempting option. So that's what began. And as time-- When on, grass sort of became an expectation because everywhere you went, there it was. And when you didn't have it, people noticed it. That was the prevailing attitude. We want these roads to look inviting. We want them to look like your front yard.

• 20:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  That began to change as early as the 1960s as state and local governments realized how many resources went toward maintaining all that grass.

• 20:35Speaker 09

  And in the 70s and 80s, we began to realize the water was really a big issue. And states dealing with tight budgets began to plant native grasses, things that were a little bit more water efficient.

• 20:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  And grasses that didn't require as much mowing. But still, how about Alan Turner's idea to get rid of grass entirely in favor of something that requires no mowing?

• 20:56Speaker 09

  I think he does have a point. However, I'm also not willing to say that states haven't already considered that. There may be reasons why they have to plant what they have. Budgets are so tight at the state DOT level.

• 21:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, so what about not replanting, but also just not mowing the grass at all?

• 21:14Speaker 09

  If you were to let something just go wild or return to nature, that sounds great. It sounds easy. It sounds cheap. And it is. It's not necessarily the best choice, though. That's where the invasive species thrive. And that becomes a little habitat for, you know, like in the South, you've got kudzu that grows all over the place. And you've got other kinds of invasive species that pop up and start to proliferate, invading local neighborhood lawns or farmers' crops. It can get out of control.

• 21:45Speaker 10

  I totally understand what he's saying, and that's the assumption.

• 21:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Sarah Wigginson.

• 21:49Speaker 10

  But I think we have to look and see if what we assume is really what's going to happen. And that's basically what we decided to do.

• 21:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  She's an ecologist working on her PhD at the University of Rhode Island.

• 21:59Speaker 10

  My ecological research focuses on finding creative solutions to human-caused environmental issues.

• 22:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  She and her colleagues had a question about invasive species.

• 22:10Speaker 10

  The question that we were trying to answer was if invasive species actually do proliferate in roadside areas that are taken out of the regular mowing management strategies.

• 22:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  They took advantage of a sort of natural experiment in Rhode Island. The Department of Transportation typically mows its roadsides anywhere from three to 10 times a year. But over the past decade, it decided to reduce mowing in some areas and stop entirely in others.

• 22:35Speaker 10

  We classified that as passive restoration because you're just taking it out of the mowing circulation and then letting it go, letting succession take course.

• 22:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  This let Wigginton and her colleagues compare the number of invasive plant species in the mowed areas versus the un-mowed, which had begun to grow wild. They also looked at young forests nearby, which had never been mowed. How did they collect those data?

• 22:59Speaker 10

  It's not super glamorous. We basically lay out really long tape using compasses to make, you know, straight angles. And then, in a very, very time-consuming process, we document every single species that we see in these subplots.

• 23:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  What'd they find?

• 23:17Speaker 10

  We found that invasive species are not proliferating significantly in these areas that are taken out of the traditional mowing scheme. They have the same number of invasives as both the young forests and the traditionally mowed areas. So I would advise that state DOTs move as much of their land as is reasonable to a reduced or low or no-mow management scheme.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  Well, I think the easiest thing to do is to elect to have what I call a low-maintenance lawn.

• 23:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Ted Steinberg again. He is talking about personal lawns now, not highway medians.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Overtreatment is the single biggest problem that we have here in the United States with respect to lawn care. So, right away, scale back on the chemical applications. You can get away with three applications of fertilizer per season. People also probably need to actually learn a little bit about the ecology of their yard. To do it right, you probably should get a soil test, not a big Deal. Leave the clippings on the lawn, for God's sakes. Don't put them out on the curb because the clippings break down and they return nutrients to the soil. And I would argue, consider stopping the irrigation. Brown's not so bad.

• 24:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, I think you just lost a lot of our lawn-loving audience right there.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Oh, that's too bad.

• 24:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm not saying I disagree with you. I'm just saying that I think when most people think of a lawn, brown is death. Brown is the enemy. Brown is not a lawn.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  The next time your lawn, if you're worried about this, turns brown, go out there, get down on your hands and knees and look at the grass. It's not dead, most of them. I mean, if you have a horrible drought, okay, I get it. Okay. But if it's not, when it appears to be brown, it's actually dormant and you'll see a little bit of green where the blade meets the soil. The individual plants, most of them, are still alive.

• 25:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ted, I think even you would have to admit that if you got your way and if America suddenly woke up and said, you know what? A low-maintenance lawn is good enough. It makes a lot of sense. Aesthetically, it's fine. Environmentally, it's probably better. Noise-wise, et cetera, et cetera. But think of the jobs you're killing. I mean, this is a pretty substantial part of the labor market, especially for low-education workers. Are you, Ted Steinberg, professor of history and law, willing to take the heat for killing off all those jobs?

• 25:46Speaker 02

  I think one of the big problems that we have in the United States today, maybe even in the world, is a lack of meaningful employment. But actually, it might not be as dire as you're implying here. You're still going to need people to mow the lawn. Maybe not as much. You don't really need necessarily to mow your lawn once a week. So this could represent savings, obviously, to consumers. And it might not be the case that the floor is going to fall out of the job market because Ted Steinberg advocates for, you know, less in the way of perfection in lawn care.

• 26:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  There's also the possibility of repurposing your yard entirely. Maybe a tennis court or an outdoor library or taking a page from our past. Hey Jim, my name's Stephen. How are you?

• 26:40Speaker 08

  Good. Hi Stephen, I'm Jim.

• 26:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Jim Kovaleski is a front yard farmer in Newport Ritchie, Florida. Small city just outside of Tampa. All right, so let me ask you this. You came up in lawn care. Did you enjoy that work?

• 26:53Speaker 08

  You know, I might have thought I did, but now every time I see a lawn trailer, I just shiver. You know, it's just like terror. I don't, no, so I don't, yeah, I didn't. And you know, I had to use so many chemicals, especially in, you know, as I came to Florida. Cause the lawns they got here, they've got kinds of grass that will not grow without pesticides and herbicides. You can't get them to do anything.

• 27:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  But vegetables and fruit are a different story. He grows sweet potatoes and black eyed peas, star fruit and avocados.

• 27:26Speaker 08

  Lettuce and broccoli and cabbage and cauliflower.

• 27:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Kovaleski turned a front yard into productive farmland. He started with his own yard, then expanded to his mom's house down the street.

• 27:37Speaker 08

  And then my ex-wife just bought a house right next door to her three years ago and offered me her front yard, which is full sun. So it's allowed me to have a lot more growing space.

• 27:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  He sells his produce at a local farmer's market.

• 27:49Speaker 08

  You know, I think the best year I had was like 2,000 pounds of sweet potatoes. But theoretically, if I get better at this, this should be producing like 15,000 pounds. I cannot believe how much value can come out of a small piece of land.

• 28:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Kovaleski gardens all winter in Florida. And then he drives his 1965 cherry red pickup truck to Maine where he does the same thing. In both places, he's known for his salad mix.

• 28:13Speaker 08

  I call it a greens mix and I kind of plant very diverse. Like it could be, you know, 100 different leafy greens. And I'll go through the garden and kind of mix it as I pick it. And then I wash it and spin it and put it in a bag and sell that. And you know, I'll sell, you know, in Florida, I probably sell 2,000, 2,500 of those bags a year. And in Maine, it's pretty much the same mix and you know, maybe a thousand up there. I don't, it's a shorter season and it's not as populated. So I make more of my money in Florida for sure.

• 28:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  So how much money do you make?

• 28:42Speaker 08

  You know, I'm doing really well. You know, I do keep track because I want to show people how much you can make because it's pretty much a cash business. I could hide stuff, but I haven't. I've kept track for the last three years or two years really good. So I think first year that I kept good track was like 24 grand and then 27. And I bet I'm on a pace of like 35 this year. And so I have very little expenses. So, you know, 35 grand's a lot of money. I don't know where to spend it, actually.

• 29:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you have any help or no? It's just you?

• 29:12Speaker 08

  No, you know, I've, you know, I'm kind of a fuss budget and, you know, I've, I've, I've learned that, you know, it's more stressful for me to try to work with other people and make things happen. It's more of my focus is to see how productive a small piece of land can be. And I'm seeing that every year I'm getting better at it.

• 29:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Are there, or were there any legal issues or ordinances you had to deal with to plant a garden in a front yard there?

• 29:37Speaker 08

  You know, we're fortunate here because, you know, it is a non-dedstructured community. So there's not much for ordinances. And so there's nothing against the law to do this. I mean, potentially, there could be some enforcement issues about, you know, height of vegetation, but it's always looked so good. That was never an issue.

• 29:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you sound like a pretty live and let live kind of guy. But on the other hand, it sounds like you would be pretty happy if you started a front yard garden revolution, yeah?

• 30:04Speaker 08

  I would, you know, I wouldn't think I'd be one to lead something like that. But I've found that, you know, people follow things that work. I haven't done any promotion over this 10 years, but there's been a lot of press. I've been amazed at how people are just longing for this. And, you know, I think it's poised to take off. And so, you know, potentially, we can put people back to work on the land.

• 30:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  A farm in every yard? That is hardly the direction our economy has been moving in, either the agricultural economy or the lawn care economy. But who's to say? The rise of the lawn was probably not foreseen. Would a return to personal farming be any more surprising?

• 30:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's it for Freakonomics Radio this week. Coming up next time, Steve Hilton was for years the man behind and beside British Prime Minister David Cameron. Well, we haven't been in touch since the Brexit vote. I think there's not much to say beyond that. Now Hilton lives in America, where he's taken up a new crusade. We want to end the way that big money donors dominate politics. And while Hilton is nearly unknown here, that won't last for long. He's got a new show on Fox News called The Next Revolution. And that is going to focus on what I'm calling positive populism, how we deal with the issues that have arisen as a result of the populist uprisings we've seen around the world.

• 31:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Steve Hilton, in all his candid, occasionally absurd glory. That's right. That's next time on Freakonomics Radio. Freakonomics Radio is produced by WNYC Studios and Dubner Productions. This episode was produced by Christopher Wirth. Our staff also includes Shelley Lewis, Merritt Jacob, Greg Rosalsky, Stephanie Tam, Eliza Lambert, Alison Hockenberry, Emma Morgenstern, Harry Huggins, and Brian Gutierrez. We also had help this week from Sam Baer. Thanks to Kevin Morris at the National Turf Grass Evaluation Program, Teresa Adams at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, Robert King of the Delaware Department of Transportation, and Christopher Dilbeck and Dr. Michael Benjamin at the California Air Resources Board

• 32:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  for their help in reporting this episode. Thanks also to Justin Maybe, Amy Sturgeon, Pat Allen, John Faulkner, Sarah Schneewind, and all the other listeners who sent us their suggestions about lawn care. Ted Steinberg's latest book is Gotham Unbound: The Ecological History of Greater New York. You can subscribe to Freakonomics Radio on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. You should also check out our archive. It's at Freakonomics.com. You can stream or download every episode we've ever made. You can also read the transcripts and look up the underlying research. We can also be found on Twitter and Facebook. Thanks for listening.

• 33:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Ozempic. Innovation happens through rethinking what's possible. And when it comes to GLP-1s, Ozempic pill does just that. Learn more about Ozempic semaglutide tablets, 4 and 9mg, by calling 1-833-OZEMPIC or visit Ozempic.com to view the medication guide and ask your doctor what's possible with FDA-approved Ozempic pill.

• 33:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern Company. The world and its energy needs are always changing. Southern Company's commitment to meeting this demand stays the same. That's because Southern Company believes energy is more than a utility. It's what powers possibilities. So they are looking ahead and investing $80 billion in infrastructure upgrades and are committed to fueling growth in ways that benefit all customers so that reliable and affordable energy is accessible for generations to come. Go to southerncompany.com to learn more. Southern Company: building the future of energy.

• 34:20Speaker 11

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• 35:04Speaker 11

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• 35:20Speaker 12

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