Magnus Carlsen is Unmatched, Anal Bead Cheating, & Which Ethnicity is Best at Chess

Yerrr good morning y'all - we have the absolute NYC Legend in the building Levy Rozman aka GothamChess. We're talking: - Flagrant ghosting Levy - The Hans Niemann cheating scandal - Best street game in New York - Different style from different cultures - The greats: Mikhail Tal, Alexander Alekhine & Bobby Fischer And we play a few games - PEACE! Timestamps: 0:00 Levy got ghosted by us :( 1:38 Sharing embarrassing stories 5:29 Obsessed with chess + Learning process 7:44 Teaching kids 9:24 Hans Niemann v Magnus Carlsen + Heel 16:53 Most viewed Chess match + ELO grind 22:13 Why is chess so special? Kasparov v Karpov 29:19 Magnus Carlsen = Big 1 + the Yips 34:53 Industry people, Resentment + Not monetizing properly 40:22 Becoming a GM 41:59 Chess origins 45:50 Getting recognized, Collabs + Little secret 49:05 Best NYC street game + Scrappy chess 52:03 Different cultural styles 56:37 Men v Women + More combative 1:01:24 Child prodigies + Spectrum 1:05:20 Weird, weird players 1:07:22 Mikhail Tal + Alexander Alekhine 1:10:17 Bobby Fischer 1:13:32 FIDE needs to improve 1:15:54 Cheating scandals 1:19:40 We are young inside 1:25:35 Chess.com dealing with cheaters + Collusion 1:31:22 Patriotism, Ukraine & China 1:35:53 Loss leader, No barrier + Commercial partnerships 1:45:33 Olympiad + Figuring out broadcast 1:53:38 Rozman v Schulz 1:57:22 Rozman v Rensch 2:01:46 Rozman v Rensch 2 2:05:25 Rozman v Rensch 3 2:11:22 Rozman Blindfold game v Schulz This episode is sponsored by Kalshi. This episode is sponsored by Sesh. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What's up everybody, welcome to Flagrant's and a new cheating scandal has rocked the chess world. You guys will learn all about it. A dynasty has been broken.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 0:11Speaker 00

  Well, actually not really, unfortunately. I might be the only person to cheat at chess and lose, but you guys will figure that out later. But today we are joined by an absolute legend in the chess community, a legend in the YouTube community. This is Levy Rosberg.

• 0:24Speaker 02

  Hey, hey, hey.

• 0:25Speaker 00

  Hey, hey, hey.

• 0:26Speaker 02

  Love you guys.

• 0:27Speaker 00

  We're very excited to have you here.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Dude, I'm excited to be here. I've been talking about you on the pod for a little bit now.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  Why did it take so long? You guys, do you have the DM I sent you guys?

• 0:36Speaker 00

  No.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  You don't know this lore?

• 0:37Speaker 00

  No.

• 0:38Speaker 02

  2022, I DM'd the Flagrant pod.

• 0:40Speaker 00

  No.

• 0:41Speaker 02

  During the cheating scandal.

• 0:42Speaker 00

  No.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 0:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  How did we let this happen?

• 0:46Speaker 02

  No, no, but it's also kind of embarrassing, yeah, because I got ghosted.

• 0:49Speaker 00

  Well, was it read and then no one responded?

• 0:52Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no. So, but that's how I kind of learned that you can't really, you can't really DM people on Instagram to try to do collabs, really. I've tried since then, not just you guys. I think people just don't check the requests page.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Well, that's the, that's the main account page. If you hit me directly, I would have been in the DMs going crazy.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  Not so, not so, I was a little bit like...

• 1:12Speaker 00

  I don't even know who runs our Instagram page.

• 1:15Speaker 02

  Because I was just like, oh, I watch, you know, I've watched UFC for so long and obviously, you know, I saw like so much of Andrew's stuff during COVID and after. I'm like, oh, it would have been cool to talk about the scandal. But four years later, you know, it's all good.

• 1:26Speaker 00

  Still cool.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  It's so good.

• 1:27Speaker 00

  Happy when it was supposed to be.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  And that was really embarrassing for me. I have a really embarrassing story I could share here.

• 1:33Speaker 00

  Please.

• 1:35Speaker 02

  But I don't want to like sidetrack him.

• 1:36Speaker 00

  No, we're not sidetracking. This is why you're here.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah, you're kind of in the sphere of like UFC. You've been on Ariel Hawani's show?

• 1:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  I once accidentally followed him for like a whole commute. Yeah.

• 1:49Speaker 00

  They're gonna say that's true. Doesn't Ariel live up in like Connecticut or something like that?

• 1:52Speaker 02

  Well, I don't, I don't, I don't know that.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  That's what made it awkward. He was driving behind.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  No, no, so right before, I don't know if he remembers this because it's been a decade, but I do. You know, because, because you have fan interactions that are all over the place, right? Sometimes they're really excited, nervous, they don't know what to do, they try to small talk you. I'm on the train going downtown right before Floyd Connor. And I'm on the train and I'm going to a chess lesson because that was my career before I was a YouTuber. I see Ariel Hawani. I'm like, oh, I want to go say hi. So I kind of walk over, we're on opposite sides of the train. So I'm already getting a little closer. Crazy guy gets on. Crazy guy yelling, violent. Everybody moves to the next car. Now I'm following Ariel to the next car. I'm very aware that this probably looks weird. Worst part is, we both get off in Fidei. Cause he's probably working there and I live there.

• 2:34Speaker 00

  His office is down there, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  Worst part is, we're walking in the same direction to the same exit, cause I live that way.

• 2:40Speaker 00

  Best part is, nobody's ever felt threatened by you.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is true. So I don't know if he noticed. And finally, I'm like, hey! And I like talk to him a little bit. Uh, and I, I think I, I was so nervous. I asked him his opinion on the fight. And then at some point, I'm like, if you ever, you know, want recommendations in the area, you know, we can get in touch. And I was like, why the fuck did I offer? So now, whenever I have an awkward fan interaction, I'm like, hey, I've been there, done that. And, uh, yeah, if I saw you, or if I saw some UFC fighter, I think I will also be pretty nervous.

• 3:10Speaker 00

  Did you tell him, like, hey, I'm not following you. We're just going in the same direction.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  I don't remember at this point. I don't want to know what I said. If he remembers this interaction, I'm gonna be really...

• 3:17Speaker 01

  He thought he was working with the crazy guy.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  He was like, this is all part of the plan. You bring the crazy guy on the train.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  Just reliving cringe is just so beautiful. I was doing some like, uh, what's called ADR for this, uh, Street Fighter movie. So basically like, you don't say the line well enough, or they need you to say something different. So you go into this booth, right? And, uh, I gotta like, I think, I don't know if I can show. I don't know if we can show it, but if you want to see like, peak fucking cringe. So the director, Kitao Sakurai, who's, who's amazing, he starts videotaping me while I'm doing the ADR. And the ADR I have to do is, I just have to make like screaming sounds, cause I'm running against the bad guy and the bad guy's kicking my ass. I don't know if we can show it, but I'm gonna show you guys. And then I'm just gonna go hide somewhere.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  So painful.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  It's so painful.

• 4:19Speaker 00

  Cause I'm not just making the sounds, I'm like acting like I'm getting hit in the movie.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  I mean dude, the worst is like seeing footage of yourself like at a party or at the club. Like, do you remember, someone pulled it up, we were like, I don't even remember where we were. It was me like at the club.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  It was you at Madison Square Garden.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Oh goodness, oh no, no, don't even bring that up.

• 4:38Speaker 00

  And yeah, and like 50 is just like, you know, rapid and the whole place go crazy and Mark just trying to like fit in.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Well, here's my, here's my theory, alright, I'm just behind 50 Cent. 50 Cent's performing onstage at Madison Square Garden, what do you do, right? You can't just stand there, so you gotta kind of move a little. But now you're like, well, everyone's looking at me move like a dumbass. So I was like, okay, I'm just gonna copy what he does. But then, but then I just look like a backup dancer, literally copying every single move. And then he does a thing that looks so cool when he does it. Where he'll be kind of like going side by side, he's going like this. But you can see when I'm doing it.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  You kind of look like a predator.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Dude, I, I, I don't, I, I get it. If I had to be onstage behind a, I'm not sure I would have even gone, I would have been like, no, I'm good. I wanted a camera, I was like, give me that, I just want to film.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Oh man.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  Oh brother, we're so stoked to have you here, like Mark has become obsessed with chess.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's your fault.

• 5:35Speaker 00

  Sorry, you've got it.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  You'll have to handle some of the divorce with my wife. You'll have to like pay.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  Is it getting there?

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness, I mean, she'll just wake up at 2 a.m., she's like, what are you doing? And I'll just point it over, keep playing.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  Chess is like that, it gets you.

• 5:49Speaker 00

  All consuming.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  I think, I think he's getting the bug dude. I think, I think he's getting the bug a little bit.

• 5:54Speaker 00

  I mean, it, it is fun, it is very fun, I don't know, it's like, it's one of those things, it's like, how many, there's a lot of layers to the onion. You know, so I'm like, oh god, if I get obsessed with this, like is there enough, do I have enough time in my day to be obsessed with another thing?

• 6:09Speaker 01

  It fills the gaps, it's the water in the jar. You know, like it just fills in everything else, you're just like.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  What do you do when you poop?

• 6:16Speaker 00

  I scroll Instagram.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, no, yeah.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  But imagine you played a little blitz game. Oh, nothing better.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  And like two more.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  And then two more.

• 6:24Speaker 00

  That's the problem.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Maybe you get hemorrhoids.

• 6:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, now we're talking.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  I got those.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Now, now you're just like destroying some guy in like a third world country, just like, take that, you know what I mean?

• 6:33Speaker 02

  It does have, it does have brain benefits. It also, it depends like what kind of a person you are. If you're a bad loser, if you're a bad student, if you're not good at analyzing your own weaknesses. But I know you got into paddles, so.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  Love paddles.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  At me too, I played it in Spain two years ago and I'm completely obsessed. But it's, it's the same thing, like if you really enjoy something and you, you want to get better at it, it, it does extend to other parts of life. I'm also talking to the people that are going to listen to this, like it'll show you how to be a good student in anything, really.

• 7:01Speaker 00

  The problem with me is that like, I actually really enjoy the learning process. So like I take lessons in paddle.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:09Speaker 00

  So now I'm gonna have another thing that I'm taking lessons at and I'm gonna have to tell my wife. They're like, you're gonna have to look after both of these kids.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:17Speaker 00

  While you're breastfeeding and losing your hair.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  Because I have to learn a new opening. I need to learn a new.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  You can teach your daughter too, though.

• 7:25Speaker 00

  That is true.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  And our pal Levy just wrote a little book on that.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Ah. It wasn't, it wasn't the, the goal, but yeah, I mean.

• 7:32Speaker 00

  No, we need to plug the book, come on.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Chess for, yeah, it's chess for babies, but um.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  And that's you and your daughter in this case.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  That's, that's true.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  There is a bonus link that's like, this is kind of for the, for the parent that also wants to get into it. I mean, it's been my thing for, you know, I was, I was in college here in New York.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  Where did you go to school?

• 7:48Speaker 02

  I went to Brook.

• 7:48Speaker 00

  I went to Brook High School.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I saw that and I was like, I don't know if they're related, I don't know if they're.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  No, we just couldn't afford a real room, so they put us in the college.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  I couldn't afford a real college, so I went to Brooklyn. I, and I was doing like a stats degree and I started teaching chess while in college. So I, I basically got started teaching kids who were five and six years old. And if you can convince them chess is important, uh, when COVID started, I was like, maybe I can make YouTube videos. Maybe people will watch. Tuesday, I wonder, I can't believe people find this interesting because chess is boring.

• 8:16Speaker 00

  I literally, I hit up Mark, I think this is a few days ago. I'm watching videos of you call games that are like famous games that have like happened throughout history. We're, we're talking about not games that are like recent history. This could be fucking in the 1800s.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:30Speaker 00

  Like, and people have documented every move of these games. And then you're doing like the play by play and I text Mark and I'm just like, I don't know how. But I am mesmerized watching him explain what happened in these chess matches. I don't get it. It doesn't make any sense. I know there are people watching right now who don't care about chess. They're like, there's no way that's possible. Just go to his YouTube page and watch this match. It's what was it? What was it? It is the, it's called?

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Controversial.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  The most notorious chess player of all time. Two weeks ago, you posted this, right? Is that the one?

• 9:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was disappointed. It didn't do very well.

• 9:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, fucking 300,000 views.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  It was a bombing, bombing, complete failure.

• 9:10Speaker 00

  Printing money. But yeah, so I don't know why it's so interesting and like, there's a lot of want to talk about. I want to talk about the butt plug controversy. I want to talk about like rise in chess. I'm sure, you know, Mark was a million things he wants to talk about as well. But, um, so I watched this chess mates documentary on Netflix and I'm sure everybody, where there's this Hans Niemann character who somehow miraculously, you know, rises to the top of the chess world, beats Magnus. Magnus then said Magnus Carlsen is the, you know, number one ever, I think.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Basically.

• 9:43Speaker 00

  And then Magnus basically alleges without saying anything that he's cheating.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  What do you think was happening?

• 9:52Speaker 02

  I think.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  Are you allowed to say, or is there like political shit you're not allowed to say?

• 9:56Speaker 02

  No, no, I mean, I can share. I've shared it in videos too. I think basically the synopsis, that documentary is fantastic. If you, if you didn't follow it at the time, it's a good synopsis. But there's definitely details left out. I have a theory. It took them four years to publish it because it, you know, it came out in 2022. They needed a crescendo. They needed kind of like the grand moment. And in Paris, which is kind of where it ends, two years later in 2024, Magnus and Hans play for the first time sort of since the scandal. I remember I was nervous. I was there. I was interviewing both of them. I have a famous interview with Hans where it just goes completely off the rails, uh, which was not in the documentary.

• 10:34Speaker 00

  What happens?

• 10:34Speaker 02

  He just basically, you know, he goes into a spiel. It's called explosive Hans Niemann interview. He goes into a whole thing about how, um, I'm a chess.com puppet, chess.com controls the narrative. He tried to come at me and then it was a, yeah, it was a whole, a whole thing. And he ended up losing, he ended up losing to Magnus.

• 10:54Speaker 00

  Badly or?

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Pretty badly, but like convincingly. But I think they, they waited so long because they wanted him to, to win. Because ultimately, if the guy who's accused of cheating wins and

• 11:03Speaker 00

  It validates everything.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, validates a lot of things. He's had his opportunities to beat Hans, uh, since, uh, to beat Magnus since this interview. He's never actually beaten him. Like they played in the World Blitz Championship, Speed Chess. Hans won one of the first four games. It's a best of four.

• 11:20Speaker 00

  This is recently?

• 11:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was 2024. So Hans took the lead, one and a half half, he won a game. I'm like, oh my God, he's going to beat Magnus in the quarterfinal. Magnus, two games back to back wins and then he like slams the king on the board. And I'm like, this is fucking, this is awesome. Like this is, this chess needs this shit.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  That, that's the thing that I, I hope people will kind of understand is there. I think when you see just an Instagram clip and you see like some guy like crying, he's like an Indian guy crying or like there was the Asian guy who gets beaten by the Indian kid.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  Do you remember that?

• 11:49Speaker 02

  That sounds like, that sounds like every, every.

• 11:52Speaker 00

  But this was a big one. This was like, I forget exactly. Go cash, I think?

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Ding, ding, the round is like, yeah, in tears and.

• 11:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, anyway, so like you see the moment, you're like, God, why is there so much passion behind it? I'm telling you, you either watch this documentary, you sort of watch some of his videos and it just changes everything, turns into like Formula One or some shit. I don't know how else.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I love it. And I think what makes it great for me is that I'm not, I'm not faking. Like ultimately I'm, I love the, the sport. I love following all the tournaments, even the tournaments nobody's really watching just because I'm, I'm curious to see, you know, what, what openings are being played? What players are on the rise? Uh, and I love it and I, and I just present it. Uh, I don't scream as much like on the street when I order, you know, coffee. But as far as this scandal, I think the, the summary is this. Hans has always been a really brash like kid. He reminded me of me just to a whole nother level. And then, you know, he's always like, he, he's, he's kind of this, you know, a little bit arrogant, a little bit in your face, like very, very aggressively extroverted, very smart. Um, and I think there were rumors already before he beat Magnus, like this dude cheated online.

• 12:53Speaker 00

  But he did.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Yes, because chess.com published that. It wasn't public then. So have other people, like, you know, but, but they're not as, they don't have the same personality as Hans. Hans is very unapologetic, so you almost get the sense like, he doesn't take any, you know, like, he doesn't believe that he did anything wrong. And I, I actually asked him in this interview, like, you know, you could have just been like, "Hey, man, I cheated, I'm really sorry, you know, I've never cheated over the board." One famous example, Chael Sonnen, right? Like, he did, he's like proud of it, he's just like, "What do you mean, if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying."

• 13:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  I think people still do this, they don't trust Hans, they will never trust Hans. We're sitting here, right, and Hans is playing now one-on-one matches against people?

• 13:31Speaker 00

  Cause he can't play on chess.com.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  No, no, he can, but he doesn't get invited to tournaments, cause if, if you're gonna invite people to, to a tournament, and you're like a really strong player, you're like, "I don't want him there, I don't trust him."

• 13:42Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  And then they're gonna listen to that. And so he's playing these one-on-one matches, because I don't think people will ever fully trust him, just because of the way he is, combined with the fact that, like, yeah, he cheated when he was a teenager,

• 13:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  but he doesn't seem like he's like, sorry for it, like, which is...

• 13:56Speaker 00

  But does he have the level?

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, it seems like right now, he, he's probably like a top 15, 20 player in the world.

• 14:03Speaker 00

  Oh!

• 14:04Speaker 02

  He got there. And in Speed Chess, probably top 10.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  And that's the thing that I actually really like about Hans, I know he's controversial in the chess world, but as a casual chess fan, he brings an energy to the game.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  You need a villain.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  That makes me want, like, it's kind of like McGregor-esque, where it's like...

• 14:18Speaker 00

  Or Floyd-esque.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Like, he's talking shit, he's arrogant, he's, like, he's just putting this energy into the game that I'm sure if I was a competitor and I played 30 years, like, from the Soviet Union and I played like the super strict game, and I'm playing against this kid, I'd be a little annoyed, but as a fan, I'm like, "Oh, this is awesome."

• 14:34Speaker 00

  I mean, like, I mean, you watch wrestling at all, like, WWE?

• 14:37Speaker 02

  A little bit, but not, nowhere near as much as UFC.

• 14:39Speaker 00

  So like, the heel character is almost notoriously defined by the heel because he cheats.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 14:46Speaker 00

  And right?

• 14:46Speaker 01

  And the worse the heel is, the more beloved the baby faces, you know?

• 14:50Speaker 00

  So you need the heel to have a baby face?

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Like, I like Magnus more seeing him beat Hans in that tournament, cause I'm like, "Oh, wow." Like, even with everything against Magnus, he still prevailed, even against like all the allegations and the drama, he still achieved it.

• 15:03Speaker 00

  Like, in WWE, the heel is the moneymaker. It's not the moneymaker because like they make all the money, but without the heel, you don't have the babyface that we're all rooting for. And that is the expression that we want to see, right? It's like, we want to see the David versus Goliath. We want to see the guy who can now possibly beat him. And so there is this version where I'm like, you gotta kind of keep him involved.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, I think it's important to be delicate with like the cheating stuff, because that is like the gravest sin. In chess, yeah. It is like, if comedy is like joke stealing, like chess is like, you cannot cheat. It is like, it is your whole credibility.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  Quick update, I'm gonna be out in LA shooting a movie this summer, but we added some standup shows, so pull on up. The Ontario Improv will be there, the 26th and 27th. And then the Brea Improv will be there, July 17th and July 18th. And then we're gonna be at the Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, Great Outdoors Fest, August 8th. So you can go grab tickets to any of those shows if tickets are still available, theandrewshultz.com. All right, Mark, what do you got?

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Oh, I have great news. I'm going all over at the end of the year. I'm going to Plano, Texas, Chandler, Arizona, Pasadena, California, San Diego, California. And then I'm also going to a couple of other spots that are gonna be coming up at the end of the year, like Detroit, Michigan, and Salt Lake City, Utah. And I can wait, I can't wait to see you guys all there. Mark Agonlive.com, Alex.

• 16:31Mark Gagnon?

  Guys, my monthly comedy show is back. Cancelled Comedy is on June 24th. We have a killer lineup. Get your tickets at cancelledcomedyx.com. And then my tennis series, theallloveclub.com. The tennis is on July 25th. I'll see you guys there. The first one was fantastic. Second one's gonna be even better.

• 16:53Speaker 04

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• 17:19Speaker 02

  You guys know what the most viewed live chess match of all time is?

• 17:21Speaker 00

  No.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  It's an Indonesian podcaster named Corbusier.

• 17:29Speaker 00

  Corbusier?

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's the Dewa Kipas chess match. Long story short, 2021, March, I play a game online on my stream. I'm like, my opponent's cheating. I just report my opponent and they get banned for cheating. At some point, that account won 27 games in a row.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  And that just wouldn't happen?

• 17:47Speaker 02

  It's just a cheater. That night, a guy makes a post from Indonesia, he's Indonesian, says, you know, my father played a big streamer and the streamer got mad. He lost to my father, mass reported my father. And, you know, now my dad is banned and my dad is a local tournament champion. Here's all to prove he won some chess trophies. I was canceled by a country.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  I learned in March 2021, Indonesia, do you know how many people live in Indonesia? Like 250 million, it's like the fourth biggest country on the planet. CNN Indonesia picked this up, nobody fact checked anything. For all we know, the young son could have cheated on the dad's account. We don't know. Long story short, Corbusier invites the dad and the son to the podcast. And what they do is they organize this match between the father and Irene Sukander, who is an international chess master, one of the best players in Indonesia. And they had a prize fund of like $20,000. This chess match was watched by 1.3 million people live on YouTube.

• 18:42Speaker 00

  So it became this massive sporting event in Indonesia?

• 18:44Speaker 02

  And she won 3-0 because he was like a, yeah.

• 18:47Speaker 00

  He was okay at chess.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  He was okay at chess, but not enough to beat me or her. And it's still not clear like who actually cheated, you know? But this is where it sort of stopped. But that was, that was a crazy month because I was receiving thousands of DMs a day telling me that like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get murdered and like it was.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  And I'm sure they all apologized to you.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  That did not happen. But, but now there, like there is a positive resolution to the whole thing. I do have a lot of chess fans from Indonesia like, hey, man, sorry. Like this is kind of how it is here. Like we, we want to stand up for what's right. And if you just read the headline, it's terrible. I reported a 50-year-old man with my fan base and got a ban. But, but whatever that account was, if it was the son, he, he probably cheated. Like he did cheat, you know? So controversy sells 1.3 million live.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  Does it negatively impact your score when you lose to somebody significantly worse than you?

• 19:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you're, you're, there's the elo, the rating changes every game.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  So if you're 500 and I'm 1500, you know, and I lose to you, my, mine might go down like 15 points. But the good thing, like, I can win it back. It's not a fatal blow. It's very different than, you know, if you, if you lose a championship fight and the person pops. Like, that's, you know, that's very different. Chess, you can run it back very fast.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  Immediately. Yeah, there's a thing like in paddle where in order to like play in the certain division, you need to be like over a five.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 20:08Speaker 00

  So what happens is once people get over a five, they just stop playing matches where the scores are tallied.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:15Speaker 00

  Because they're like, I can't risk going down and I can't play in this division anymore. But does that happen at all with chess?

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, but like more on a human level in the sense that, oh my God, I'm so close to 1,000. That's a big benchmark for people.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  I need to get there.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think everybody, you could like, you can get to 1,000. You'd have to change a couple of things, find two and like study a little bit more. But once you get to 990, you're shitting your pants. My wife was on the grind recently. She got to 992. And then she lost like 100 points. And this is normal.

• 20:42Speaker 00

  100 points?

• 20:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, well, because over time, you know, you lose, you get tilted, you want to play a little bit more. I was stuck at 2850, my peak for like five years.

• 20:50Speaker 00

  I hope that you were just playing as like other people against her when she got to 992.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 20:56Speaker 00

  I can't let this chick get to 1,000. I'll never be at the end of it.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  I, I also, we, we had the opposite where she'd be like, you know, we were like sometimes sitting, she's like, is my position good? I'm like, I, I'm very fair. I'm like, I can't, I can't tell you. Because if, if you were playing someone and like on the other side, someone's cheating, I'm like, I would be furious. But, uh, yeah, certainly there's this. I was stuck at 2800 for five years. And when I broke to 2900 the first time, I like, I almost threw a party for myself. And then since then I climbed to 3,000. And you know what I think? I think there was rating inflation.

• 21:24Speaker 00

  What does that mean?

• 21:25Speaker 02

  I think just like. The way it works, there's a weird period of time where the average rating sort of floats up. For example, if Hikaru and Magnus go from 3300 to 3400, and then they start losing games, it's like trickle-down economics.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  Obvious, those points gotta go somewhere.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Then they go to the 32, the 31, the 3000. Suddenly, everyone's kind of going up. Elo is a whole fascinating thing. It's like, you know, mathematical formulas and everything. Elo around the world is different. For example, a 1500 in India is not a 1500 from America.

• 21:59Speaker 00

  Who's better?

• 22:00Speaker 02

  The 1500 from India.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  Just more people playing?

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, way better. Another example, before the chess boom, six years ago, a 1200 on chess.com was awful. Now, a 400 can defeat a 1200 from five years ago. Because there's so much knowledge, the average elo is going lower. Like, all the people are good.

• 22:20Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  But they're all, you know, your games might be chaotic, but they also might be completely... You just play a game, you're like, "I didn't do anything wrong, and I fucking lost."

• 22:26Speaker 00

  Right.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  "What the fuck?"

• 22:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was cheating, and I lost.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, yeah. So, elo is another fascinating thing. It's not like tennis. I wish it was. It's just a culmination of like a calendar year, but it's not quite like that.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  I'm curious, people use all sorts of metaphors to describe chess. And you were even mentioning some before, like, oh, business, or whatever. What is it about chess that is so addictive? And what metaphor could you use to explain it to people that maybe have never played, or played a little when they were a kid?

• 22:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's very easy. For me, also being a, like, a person who did some boxing, did some judo, and like, followed it for basically half my life, it compares directly to a one-on-one fight. Even the preparation for an opponent is exactly the same. Their playing style, how they start the game, their strengths and weaknesses. You know, like, at what point are they gonna get tired? It's very similar to that.

• 23:13Speaker 00

  What do you mean, "at what point are they gonna get tired"?

• 23:15Speaker 02

  Well, for example, I don't want to get too topics, so let me just answer this first. It probably, like, that is probably the best comparison that I could draw. It's to individual sport. And it hooks people, because it's uniquely the one activity that...

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Makes you feel incredibly intelligent and incredibly stupid.

• 23:39Speaker 00

  At the same time.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  At the same time, there is nothing like it. You feel so proud when you win a chess game. And then you feel unbelievably dumb when you play rook takes pawn. You know, like, like you just, you're like, what? Nothing can bring that out of you. It's, it's a mental warfare. It's, it's like four hours of a physical sport, but in your head. And we know, we got demons up here and, and like, they really come out. It exposes all of your kind of worst habits. What was your question?

• 24:05Speaker 00

  The mental aspect, sorry. So the mental fatigue.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:09Speaker 00

  You can, you can track or you'll know when somebody will start to get tired.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, easily, easily. You can sort of analyze like, hey, this person in the third and fourth hour of the game is like less accurate. They, they manage their time worse. They, they leave themselves less time.

• 24:22Speaker 00

  So when you're preparing for an opponent that you know, not just a random game that happens on chess.com, but like, this is somebody that you know that you're going up to. You're looking at like openings that they'll commonly use. How many different openings will, for example, someone of your level have?

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Four or five consistently, like with white and black.

• 24:40Speaker 00

  Oh, so it's not like 10,000 different?

• 24:43Speaker 02

  No, it's tight.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  You, so you play, wow, it is kind of like boxing where it's like, this guy's a counterpuncher. This guy, big swings.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:51Speaker 00

  And then you have four or five that you're comfortable playing through. But there's thousands of permutations, so other people might have a four or five that have nothing to do with yours.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  I study their over the board games, you know, the games they've played live. If I'm lucky, I uncover their secret online account that has no name. But there's, you know, there's ways that if you're smart, you can sort of, you can sort of find it. Now what people do is they play on chess.com with like a fake flag, a fake profile picture. I have an account like that. Everybody does.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  A ghost account?

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, because you need to train. You need to play your real openings so you, you can simulate it in a game, like sparring in the gym.

• 25:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  But you can't have people knowing that that's what you're practicing, right?

• 25:28Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  So that's what you do. You do three or four openings. You check your opponent's games. Most of us are working behind the scenes like for the next tournament, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna play a new thing that my opponent won't expect.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  You're developing a new opening that you're comfortable with.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Yep, that I played in online games, that you never saw that I played in online games.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  Got it. So you're trying to track what that might be for your opponent?

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:50Speaker 00

  And knowing what their opening is, like what type of advantage percentage wise?

• 25:54Speaker 02

  You, so first of all, you get them down on time early. So they're deep in the tank.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  That's interesting.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  They're trying to like, then if you get really lucky.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  I don't like this time thing, by the way.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  I, yeah, but we gotta.

• 26:04Speaker 00

  I know you have to do it for the sport, right? But like, if you're looking at its purest form.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  It's not who makes the decision the fastest. It's just who makes the right decision.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  But can you say the same thing about fighting? Like you're in a boxing match and it's like, well, it should just be whoever beats the shit out of the other guy the most. But it's like, well, you have time.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  Well, I would say it's like the inverse in boxing, right? Because it's like, if you really want to know who the best, most skilled boxer was, you would have less time per round.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's kind of like.

• 26:33Speaker 00

  You don't want exhaustion to be calculated into the skill of the sport.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying? Like, because once you get tired by the end of the round, you can't throw as many punches, you can't dunk as much. If you just want to know who is the best at throwing punches, who hit the hardest, etc. But I guess it is part of, having a gas tank is part of it. So I guess you could calculate that as like, decision speed.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  It's like how Joe Rogan is, he's advocates for one round, or I don't know if he advocates for one round, or if he advocates for just an open space, like no cage.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, I've heard, I think.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  The 25 minute round of fighting, the champs would probably be different if they had.

• 27:11Speaker 00

  I think Khabib maybe even said that too, which is like, or maybe Nate Diaz was like, why don't we just have no rounds? It's just, it's just one round.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  And it becomes a different sport in a way.

• 27:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're, and then it's like, yeah, yeah, I guess that's a good point. Okay, sorry. I diverted you.

• 27:24Speaker 02

  No, you, you have a good point. This only changed like 30 ish years ago. In 1984, there's a famous match Kasparov.

• 27:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  Who's the, you know, the go, he's like the Michael Jordan of chess. And then, you know, Karpov, the Soviet champion, young Kasparov taking on Karpov. Back then, the rules were basically unlimited. You had to beat a guy six times to become the world champion. Draws didn't count. So you weren't playing to a point total, you had to beat him six times. Karpov gets out to a 5-1 lead. With a bunch of draws, so they've played like 20 games, but he's won five.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  So the Soviet?

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're both Soviet, they're both Soviet.

• 28:01Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  Kasparov, at the time now, he's obviously much more, you know, Western, probably lives in New York, you know, very, very anti-Russian regime. We don't have to get into all that. But Kasparov starts locking down and winning games. So like 10 draws, he wins a game. 10 draws, he wins another game.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  Over how much time?

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Three months. So Kasparov gets back into the match over the course of like two months of play.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  He's down 1-5.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  Gets back to...

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Like 5-4, 5-3. And the Soviets are like, hey, you guys are both ill. We can't finish this match anymore. You're, you're both gonna, you know. And he's like, what? This is corruption. You know, like, what are you talking about? I want to play, I want to play. And, uh, and then they postponed the match. They end up playing a match in 1985 and, and Kasparov wins it. But back then, they would play to a point total. They, they removed the fact that you had to win six games, or you could theoretically play forever. That's why the clock is there. That's why they, you know, play to a point.

• 28:53Speaker 00

  Okay, you need this. So we need the clock. We need some sort of restraint. So who ends up winning the, the, the match or whatever?

• 28:59Speaker 02

  So 1985, Kasparov beats Karpov. Uh, 1987, Kasparov beats Karpov. 1990, Kasparov beats Karpov. So they, they played four world championship matches. Kasparov won every world championship match by one game. It's like the closest rivalry ever that was not close. It's fascinating.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 29:19Speaker 00

  By not close, you mean Kasparov always won.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  He was the...

• 29:22Speaker 00

  But it was like 51% to 49% in terms of ability.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  50.3 to 49.7, yeah.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 29:28Speaker 00

  And, well, well, sorry, Gomar.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Just, is that the most intense rivalry, you would say?

• 29:32Speaker 02

  By far, because, because nobody rivals Magnus. Like, we haven't had that type of close rivalry ever. Because, you know, tennis has like a big three. It always has a big two, big three. Chess has a big one. It's like basically the way it's always been.

• 29:46Speaker 00

  And why is that?

• 29:48Speaker 02

  It's inexplicable. Nobody quite knows why Magnus is so good. It could be a mix of like photographic memory. So he remembers patterns and positions in games from decades ago. And also, he just has a better intuition. You drop him in any chess position, give him a thousand chess positions, he'll find the best move in a thousand position sample size better than anybody in the world.

• 30:09Speaker 00

  Could he have made it out of that position that I stupidly put myself in?

• 30:13Speaker 02

  If you were, if you were, oh, uh, no, that was probably, like, I could probably beat Magnus consistently up a rook. But if he started the game against me down like a bishop, which is a substantial disadvantage, with a clock, I think he would.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  Would he beat you on the clock, or would he beat you?

• 30:28Speaker 02

  A mix of both. Because I would be also afraid of him. I would change my playstyle.

• 30:32Speaker 00

  You would play a more delicate game?

• 30:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd be more afraid of, yeah.

• 30:35Speaker 00

  How much does that play into it? How much is, you know, you would always hear this with like Mike Tyson in fighting, where like certain guys lost the fight before they even got in the ring. You saw with Michael Jordan, fourth quarter, you know, he comes back in the game, and then guys would get a little spooked.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:48Speaker 00

  Do you get the yips with your decision making in chess?

• 30:52Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. Me, me especially. It's my, it's something that I've realized also since like late twenties, thirties, and I'm not used to playing and competing with such a spotlight. Like, my whole life, I just kind of go to tournaments. Nobody really knows who I am.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  And now everybody knows who you are. They're watching your game. There's all this pressure.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. And also, you know, I, I go home from a tournament game, Hikaru, who's the number two player in the world, already covered it.

• 31:13Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  So the number two in the world.

• 31:15Speaker 00

  He's great, by the way.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's like covering my game, and like, here's a good, you know, good moment, bad moment, and then, you know, that's, yeah, it's way more pressure than I thought. And for opponents of Magnus, especially guys in their late twenties, thirties, forties, like his generation, yeah, totally. Like, definitely afraid of him.

• 31:27Speaker 00

  So you watch them fold?

• 31:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, they, they break at some point.

• 31:30Speaker 00

  And how does that manifest on the board? Like, for someone who knows nothing about chess, like, what, what is a, what is a decision that they're making? Are they, are they more defensive? Are they more?

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's two things. Um, so you'll get into a long, long game against Magnus, fourth hour, fifth hour. There's, the board is simplified, but he's known as an endgame god.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  What, what does that mean?

• 31:54Speaker 02

  That just means when half the pieces have been traded, and there's no structure, nothing you can memorize anymore.

• 31:59Speaker 00

  That's his time.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  He somehow knows where the pieces go better than you. And so you're looking at something five moves down, he's looking at the same thing. You're like, damn, I feel like, I feel like he has something there. He's gonna get my pawn. He's gonna get his knight to like this square.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  Oh, no.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  What, what's amazing is like, I won't go for that. I'm gonna do something else because I feel like in that type of position, he'll get me. But the computer is like, there's nothing there. Just go there. Just go to this like, position that doesn't look very good.

• 32:26Speaker 00

  If you could take the emotion out of it, you'd actually probably play better against him.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, everybody, everybody would. Having said that, we're like, living in the midst of his worst tournament ever, in like 10 years.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  The Norway tournament.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's playing in Norway, and he's lost four games, which hasn't happened in 11 years, and he's losing to, you know, the next generation. And it's gonna happen. I mean, Father Time is undefeated. At some point, he will lose more than he wins, or he will lose more than he's ever lost. But that hasn't really happened yet. He's won the world championship like 20 times.

• 32:59Speaker 00

  Can he pull himself back up in this tournament, or you think?

• 33:01Speaker 02

  He won't win it.

• 33:02Speaker 00

  He won't win it, because it's a points.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just the point thing. It'll be the first tournament, 23 or 24 tournaments over the course of three years that he hasn't won.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so here's his Kalshi rating right now, for this tournament, versus Wesley So.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Now, this is the, this is the-

• 33:18Speaker 01

  This is the next match.

• 33:19Speaker 00

  This is a specific match.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  This is the next match.

• 33:21Speaker 00

  So they have him at 64%.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  He's still a favorite. I mean, he's like, this is the worst tournament he's played in 10 years, he's still a 2 to 1 favorite.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I was talking to someone that kind of gave me some perspective on this, specifically with classical chess, that when you're the best for that long, the will and the, maybe the motivation to get in and study, you know, five different openings, and get into your opponent's burner account to learn how they play, that will kind of goes away a little bit. Whereas if you're a young guy, when you're playing Magnus, that is the only game you're thinking about. For Magnus, that's just another game. And so you have this sort of motivation disincentive that happens, I think, when you are the best for that long. And I wonder if that's what's happening to Magnus now.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  100%. And he's a, he's a father.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  Everybody wants to get him involved in the, in the next chess project.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's probably got business decisions, so he's not applying himself in the same way. And also, I imagine, given the, given the amount of content that he has on the internet, like, I imagine every game that he plays publicly is scrutinized, right? So it's like, you, I imagine you could probably memorize most of his openings, the ones that he uses classically. You're starting to recognize patterns at the endgame, as you said. Like, I imagine if there's some young kid who's been studying one person, it's the best person. So he's probably the most, like, known player in terms of his tendencies, right?

• 34:38Speaker 02

  Yes. And yet, having said all of that- It's still the story that he's underperforming as opposed to he's getting outplayed.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  Oh, that's interesting. They're framing it as he's playing poorly instead of these young guys are playing great.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  Yes, but that's still kind of true.

• 34:56Speaker 00

  Really?

• 34:57Speaker 02

  It hasn't because it's one tournament. And so we are so used to, oh, he lost a couple of games in the middle of a tournament. His odds of winning this tournament are now like 10, 20%. He just like roars back and wins the tournament.

• 35:09Speaker 00

  Is there like a thing that happens? I've noticed this with stand up. I've noticed that even a little bit like with paddle, where are you in rooms with like incredibly like successful people, titans of business? And because you're better than them at something that they really value. Do they have like a very different social dynamic with you? With like a Bill Gates or somebody who likes chess? Like, does he act like a little like fanboy around you or something like that?

• 35:39Speaker 02

  I've never met him. I have a very different and fascinating dynamic with successful people than a Magnus would have.

• 35:48Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  His dynamic is, oh, my God, you're such a genius. Like, that's what, you know? And so he gets invited to, he was just like, he, it was the most random thing. It was a clip of him and Eileen Gu. At the science, I don't know what it's called. It's like a science development conference and they introduced an award for some sort of research.

• 36:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  And I was like,

• 36:13Speaker 02

  okay, like, that's cool. That's the stuff that he gets invited to. Tech conferences, you know, AI. A lot of the tech folks, they sort of want to be adjacent. I get a lot of, I kind of get a lot of like, hey, I didn't know how much chess could be fascinating. I'm sort of, I'm really into it. I played it when I was younger and now I'm back into it in my 30s, 40s, 50s and my kids play.

• 36:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  So the cool thing with chess content is, I never thought it would be like this, but it's one of the few things every generation of a household does together.

• 36:41Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Kids are not gonna, you know, the kids are gonna watch like the Mr. Beast stuff and the parents are gonna watch CNN. I don't know, like Fox. They're not gonna. And chess is not, is not the same way. But I've seen people, I finished a collab with Magnus once and I got into a taxi in France, going to Charles de Gaulle. And we're driving and then the guy just turns around and goes, "Brother." I'm like, "Yes?" He's like, "Was that guy Magnus Carlsen?" And I'm just like, "What?" "Yeah, I'm like, "You play chess?" He's like, "No, no, no, I'm from Tunisia. I don't play so much chess, but that guy is a genius." And I was like, "All right, like, hell, hell, yeah, you know?" So I, yeah, that's kind of like the Magnus effect. He's like, "Oh, genius."

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Is there ever animosity within the chess world where you will be around these other grandmasters? Or these grandmasters that are, you know, the top five, but you are more well-known in many ways?

• 37:30Speaker 00

  Wealthier.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, better paid. Is there ever animosity from the chess world that are like, "Oh, why does Levy get this and not me?"

• 37:36Speaker 02

  I don't, so I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of behind closed doors talking about a person. And I kind of hear it. I sort of hear the murmurs and the rumors and the answer to your question, the short answer is yes, absolutely. And not just me, there's, you know, content creators who are women and they get it much worse than, you know?

• 37:58Speaker 00

  The sisters.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, the sisters, yeah. They get a whole different side of things.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Nemo is another one.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, these players don't like the fact that they have achieved the absolute top at this intellectual pursuit, you know, this mental cerebral type of thing. And here I am, like, breaking it down for people and people care a lot more about, you know, my content. I'm top 3,000 in the world, top 2,000 in the world. Like, why am I more famous? Why am I more popular? The only chess players in the world that really don't have these concerns are the ones that have achieved, like, massive success. And that's, you know, the Magnus, the Hikaru. And some players who are, let's say, from India or Uzbekistan, where there's really good state sponsorship. So these players are superstars in India because they're world champ, they're top five, top 10 in the world. And it's cultural.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  It's not really the culture to be like, "I have..."

• 38:48Speaker 00

  Usually it's a reflection of like someone's success and their financial standing.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, and yeah, chess is...

• 38:54Speaker 00

  That's where the resentment kind of comes from.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  I will say, it's probably similar stuff in comedy, it's slightly different. Chess is, and I've thought about this a lot, it's the only activity in the world where the top athletes... Hate the top creators. Like, imagine in basketball if Steph Curry hated the professor. It's just like, what? But it has to do with money. It has to do with chess hasn't grown the way it should.

• 39:20Speaker 00

  I'm sure there's NBA players that are like, why is Stephen A. Smith making a million or something like that?

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Well, he's on TV criticizing them, which is a little different.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  Yes, of course.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  They don't like that.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  But do they not recognize like how the ecosystem works? And how there's probably much bigger prize money for these chess matches now because of what you guys are doing?

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Yes and no. So you would think, but chess hasn't monetized itself competitively anywhere near to the degree that a content creator has.

• 39:47Speaker 00

  That's the tricky thing.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  I have the channel. I wrote a book. It's a bestseller. Like, I have my educational platform. I'm smart about the way I do it beyond just being like the chess guy.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm an entrepreneur. Like, I have multiple businesses. I manage like 10, 15 people.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  Talk your shit.

• 40:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:02Speaker 00

  Talk your shit.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  But that's like, that's what I'm always thinking. Like, what's the next big project? I'll continue to make chess accessible, but I want to do big, cool things. I want to do productions. You know, I want to do a limited series like on a Netflix. And these guys just want to play chess. They don't have big social media followings. And chess historically hasn't had the structure that any of these other sports have. Our FIFA equivalent, don't even get me started. It's not, it's just nowhere near the same thing. And chess has relied on eccentric billionaires to fund tournaments. Billionaire comes in, it's like, I want to hang out with Magnus. I'm gonna throw 20 million at this thing. Let's get all the players here. It dies after like a year or two years. And so that's, yeah, that's chess. It's weird, man. It's competitively, the sport hasn't grown anywhere near it should.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  Right. But does that paradigm make you want even more to get that GM title? You know, the fact that you have this, you know, your top, you know, 2000, but you're like, man, if I could just be the biggest, you know, content creator and a GM, no one could say anything.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  Yes and no. It's brutal. Like I said, I mean, I'm studying for three, four hours. I show up, some 11-year-old kid is already like better than me.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  No way.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, knows openings. I mean, I got the international master title at 22 and now it's getting broken at 10. 10-year-olds are like already... The average nine-year-old today would be the world champion 100 years ago.

• 41:22Speaker 00

  Right. The game has improved that much?

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Yes, because it's all, it's like knowledge. You just know so many openings. You don't even have to think anymore.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  More access to information. You can play more games much more quickly.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, imagine a nine-year-old kid's already played like 10,000 speed games on chess.com.

• 41:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  I'm thinking, I'm thinking kids on chess.com, I'm losing. I go to their, like I find their name. I'm like, born in 2016?

• 41:41Speaker 00

  Crazy, crazy.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  What the fuck?

• 41:43Speaker 00

  So Kasparov would get mauled today?

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Not mauled, but he would lose shockingly more than he... His aura was off the fucking charts. His aura was very different than Magnus' aura, but his aura was a Michael Jordan aura. Like, he'll kill you. Like, he'll blow you off the board.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  The thing about what it took for him to get reps, you know what I mean?

• 42:00Speaker 00

  It makes total sense.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  You're a 22-year-old kid in India in 1910. It's like you have to just play people around you.

• 42:05Speaker 00

  Who in your village is even good enough to give you some pressure? Now you're connected to, oh wow, that's interesting.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, India got their first grandmaster, Anand, in like 1980s, 1990s. Now they have like 100. The whole country plays chess.

• 42:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  But they had like no grandmasters before Anand, even though they invented chess, basically.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, they did.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:23Speaker 02

  I wasn't there, but...

• 42:25Speaker 00

  So yeah, where, where, where does it come from?

• 42:28Speaker 02

  It comes from India and there was different forms of the game. Like, the queen used to only be able to move two at a time. Like a hop, just like little moves like that. Chaturanga, I think these, I don't want to say the wrong thing and then look like an idiot. We'll have to cut it out, but that's where it evolved from. And I think the modern-day chess comes from like Spain. 1500s, 1600s. They changed a few rules and, but it hasn't gotten an update in like 200 years. So we just keep at it and it's kind of cool. It doesn't need any like new characters, new pieces, anything like that.

• 42:58Speaker 00

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• 46:35Speaker 01

  Would you trade everything you've built so far to become a GM?

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Well, no. I wouldn't even trade it to, I think the only thing I could trade it for just on like scale is, um, is to be like the world champion. Like Magnus is a bigger star than me for sure, just purely on like name, but no, it blows my mind. I mean, coming here to film, I, I took a walk today to Starbucks. I saw one person on the, on the street because it was so early and they're like, are you Gotham chess? And I'm like, that's why like that blows my mind. Like I was not born to be a celebrity, but I have like, I'm like, I got five billion views on YouTube. What even is that number?

• 47:11Speaker 00

  Every short you post is millions of views.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Which is, but people, people love chess and, and I can collab with a big streamer. Like the past month I did a lot of collabs with Jinxie.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  And, um, you know, you see the, the amount of like top of funnel people, new people watching chess every day.

• 47:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  Hundreds of thousands and they just, they just love it. They watch a historical video, video about AI, a video about two idiots playing chess.

• 47:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  And they just, they just get hooked.

• 47:36Speaker 00

  I feel like everybody thinks it's their little secret.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  It's true. I bet you've been in places.

• 47:41Speaker 00

  What is that?

• 47:42Speaker 02

  People don't talk, athletes play it. Every day we discover an athlete, musician, designer, like entrepreneur plays it, but they don't want to talk about it.

• 47:48Speaker 00

  Jim Norton was on the pod last week and he was telling me about like, he would come back from the road and he'd be at the Comedy Cellar. And then Patrice O'Neal, who you know, Patrice is the greatest ever. And he goes, him and Patrice would just play chess until three in the morning. And then he said it and it was just like, first of all, the second I find out you play chess, I wonder if there's like a, this is a stigma. Most people have like, I assume you're smart. I don't know why, like, I would always think that Jim and Patrice are smart, but I was like, ooh, these guys, instead of just like making fun of each other until three in the morning. I'm sure they were also doing that, but like they're just sitting across a chessboard. And I don't know, there was just something about, to me, it was like, what a, what a peculiar thing that they'd be doing. I've never seen anybody bust out a chessboard at the cellar.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  No, I've been doing it lately.

• 48:32Speaker 00

  You have?

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:33Speaker 00

  I love this.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Me and Casey's friend even have been playing.

• 48:35Speaker 00

  Really?

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:36Speaker 00

  Oh, I love this.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  You guys will be shocked, like I, in Stockholm, this has happened two or three times recently, so it's top of mind, but I'll, I'll be on the street. My wife and I were walking from, from Italy, guy stops me, two steps behind him is another guy. They both know who I am, they're kind of awkward and I'm like, you guys should like link up, play some chess. I mean, they both play chess, they were, I like to put people in strange situations like that and they were both clearly like not extroverted enough to do that.

• 49:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  People are walking on the street every day, they're at the Comedy Cellar, they're anywhere, they all play chess.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. Why is it everybody's little secret?

• 49:09Speaker 02

  That I don't know. I think people are also intimidated by this. Not these guys, but like, you know, people that uh who mostly play online, they they're a little bit afraid of doing it over the board.

• 49:19Speaker 00

  Doing it in real life, over the board.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  But you'd be shocked, though. I played a game with Nick Sonnenberg. He's a chess kickboxing champion.

• 49:24Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  He won gold for the United States.

• 49:25Speaker 00

  Let's go, Nick.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Chess boxer.

• 49:27Speaker 00

  We went to college together.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was playing with him at a restaurant and the amount of people that just came around, just like, watch.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 49:34Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  There was like a little kid that was having dinner with his parents that like walked over and was like, can I play? And like, it just became a thing. It's just like such a fun, social, like, lubricator. Just everyone comes around.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  Wendy, last year or two years ago, was like, hey, anybody want to play chess in Washington Square Park?

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that's right.

• 49:49Speaker 02

  Tweeted it before he was like the ultra superstar that he is now, but he he just went to Washington. I was like, I'm like, I'm like, it's raining. I doubt, is this even real?

• 49:57Speaker 00

  What's the best street game in New York City?

• 50:01Speaker 02

  Like, for chess or Washington Square Park?

• 50:05Speaker 00

  Better than Union Square?

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, so they're different. Union Square, you pay to play. They're kind of.

• 50:10Speaker 00

  Washington, you can pay to play.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  You can, but they they bet more on the games, like, five to win.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. If you win, you you get them. Sometimes they'll yell at you and be like, get the hell out of here.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  But yeah, Washington Square Park, a lot of these content creators over the last few years will just go set up shop. Like, they, one guy in particular, I think his name is Johnny. He's in like everybody's.

• 50:31Speaker 00

  Videos?

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, and a lot of them, you know, they've, some of them like were, they're ex-convicts. Some of them were like, they were in rehab.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  And they found chess while in jail or found chess while in rehab.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  Chess in prisons, huge program.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Huge.

• 50:43Speaker 02

  Massive.

• 50:43Speaker 00

  Okay, so when when you're playing against these guys, as I imagine you've played a bunch, is there something different about their game?

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:50Speaker 00

  And how so?

• 50:51Speaker 02

  It's like scrappy. They don't play anything in the beginning of the game that's correct.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  Tell me, tell me.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it's just like, it's like, they'll throw their.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  There's a different language to it, almost.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I have to kind of, you know, I'm experienced enough that, again, I compare it to martial arts. It's like a really scrappy person, like.

• 51:08Speaker 00

  Like a drunken master.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  Did you watch? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 51:11Speaker 00

  Augustus, the boxer, yeah.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  And how Rico fought Usik.

• 51:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Rico was unorthodox, like, he was kind of like, and it was really successful, and he was robbed. I'm just gonna say it now, but.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  Shout out Rico, man. That was, that was really tough.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  I was like, yeah, but I was, that's the style, is that, you know, it's really, really unorthodox, and you have to use what you know to to sort of carve it up. It's crazy. People were like, this was a mask era.

• 51:34Speaker 00

  What makes it, what makes it unorthodox?

• 51:39Speaker 02

  It's basically, it's similar to the trickiness of explaining computer moves.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 51:44Speaker 02

  So the moves that a lot of these guys play are not the best moves, but they're very confrontational, they're very combative, like they tie your pieces up. So your pieces are kind of like grappling and it's hard to know what the best move is because the pawns are looking at each other, the bishops are looking at each other, the knight, like, which permutation of move do you play? I can figure it out.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Like if you play basketball against someone that's not that good, but maybe they're super like aggressive.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Like foul you, like you're doing a move because they're supposed to go and then you cut back.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  But because they don't know, like they won't cut back.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  Just shoulder check you.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  So then you're just going back into them. Like that happens in soccer, like you'll do a move and they don't know the move, so they don't bite. And so then you'll cut back into them and lose the ball. You're being, you're worse and I'm playing worse because of that.

• 52:28Speaker 00

  It's like you play paddle with guys who like come from different racket sports disciplines and like they have immense skill.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:35Speaker 00

  So they can hit shots, but they aren't the shots they're supposed to hit.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  So you're out of position.

• 52:41Speaker 00

  Right, so like I'm in the position for the shot you should be hitting and you have me out of position, so I'm scrambling for, to get back in position. But you're hitting this other shot that exists in squash or tennis or something like that and it's somehow effective.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  Oh, that's really interesting.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  You notice a cultural difference? Like if you play like a Brazilian guy versus like a Soviet guy or you know, Russian guy.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really, yeah, so you said something really good, we weren't rolling, but I, can I quote you?

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Please.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  You were like chess is one of the few things that can make me racist, I think they should.

• 53:13Speaker 00

  He's got a lot of guts about that.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, they should, they should hide the flag on chess.com.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Exactly, like you're playing chess.com, it's 2 a.m., you're getting beat by a Bangladeshi dude and all of a sudden you're like, what's the slur for them?

• 53:25Speaker 02

  He said that, it was new camera on him.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  It's because I lost, alright.

• 53:29Speaker 00

  Wait, wait till he gives you his Bobby Fischer taint.

• 53:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're making a, it's a, it's a good point.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  Give your Bobby Fischer taint and then we can cut it out.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  I saw this on a tweet, it was an antisemitic tweet, but it's very funny. It was like, just the first line it says, Bobby Fischer, the greatest pattern recognizer in history, second line, also hated Jews.

• 53:55Speaker 02

  It's a rough time to be Jewish. I'm letting you know. Yeah, no.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  But you were saying the different cultures and how they play.

• 54:03Speaker 02

  There's 100% difference. Especially at like club level, amateur level, just like people who download the app and just like get playing.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  So people who are Soviet, like Russia, you know, even Kazakhstan, like some of the more central Asian countries, they play very sound. What does that mean? Like, they don't take big risk. They won't open their king. You know, they're gonna castle in the beginning, because that's what you're supposed to do. Very professional Soviet school of chess. They'll trade the queens.

• 54:30Speaker 00

  They will trade the queens.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, because like, no queen, no danger. Less danger. Filipino, Indonesian, ballistic. Like, completely uncontrolled game. Everything you just watched on a YouTube video, out the fucking window. You're gonna get really mad, because you're like, they're not doing the thing that I'm supposed to do. They're throwing all the side pawns forward, and the computer is like, white is better. But you're not a computer. You're like, what the fuck is going on? So you get your bishop trapped, like by pawns. You know, your bishop gets walled in.

• 54:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  And now you're gonna lose bishop. You're like, goddammit, I just lost the bishop. Like, why am I... And you lose in like 20 moves. They just go after you. They leave the king in the middle. They just bring the queen out, bring the bishop out, like... And it's bad if you know how to defend it. But that style, like that, there's really, like Southeast Asia, or like Philippines, like, I don't know if that qualifies. My geography's not that great, but...

• 55:16Speaker 00

  Close enough.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Yes, they're relentless. India, very unpredictable, because you have so many cultures, you have so many people, you have so many parts of it. So you get a lot of that, you get a lot of like really aggressive, but then you also get very proper. Like, they know their openings very well. They study. So they'll, you know, the first 5-10 moves, they play super, super well. And on and on, you know? And some people will trash talk, like when I...

• 55:41Speaker 00

  Oh, they like to talk shit?

• 55:43Speaker 02

  I had students playing on chess.com back in the day. We were practicing an opening. Guy writes in like some foreign language. We translated, it's like, "Make a move, you fucking bitch." It's like an 8-year-old girl. Goes to Google Translate and it's like... Chat off, chat disabled, bro. You got like a 50-year-old man on the other side of the planet playing an eight-year-old girl. That's chess, you know?

• 56:05Speaker 01

  How would you characterize the American game? Is there one singular way to describe how we play?

• 56:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're, well, if you look at the top rating lists of the United States, it's 90% Chinese and Indian. Which is just, it's a mix of like, this is the right thing to do for college, and there's a blueprint of previous Asian-American girls becoming champions, and then going to Harvard.

• 56:31Speaker 00

  Oh, does it help you get into the Ivies?

• 56:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. Like, historically, the best women who end up applying to college in America, they don't pursue chess professionally. They become multiple-time US Women's Champion, and then they go to Harvard.

• 56:45Speaker 00

  It's like being like a rower or something. Like, a lot of, any of my friends who have like kids that are trying to get into the Ivies, they'll pick these kind of like obscure, like, white people's sports? And like, it's just a catalyst to get into the Ivy. Like, you're not gonna become a professional squash player, but like, you can kind of get in in that, right? And chess works like that? But there's a chess team at the school? Or do they look at it as like a reflection of IQ and discipline?

• 57:11Speaker 02

  No, no, no. They just, they probably want like cool people in Harvard ultimately, and then these talented players know they can't make more than like 100K, 200K a year in chess, so they go to finance.

• 57:20Speaker 00

  Okay, that makes sense.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Whereas the men oftentimes will follow chess professionally and try to get like top 10, top 20, top 30 in the world, which opens up the topic of men's and women's chess, because it's arguably the one sport in the world you absolutely, 100%, do not need to split them up.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  That's what I never understood, like, that and driving.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  Just let them drive. Yeah, yeah. So, so, explain that. Why do they split them up?

• 57:48Speaker 02

  And even that, you could argue like the torque on the neck, I don't know. Like, the way they drive.

• 57:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, but they're good with their necks.

• 57:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:57Speaker 00

  If anything, they have an advantage, you know?

• 58:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, no.

• 58:00Speaker 00

  They've been doing what they're supposed to.

• 58:02Speaker 02

  So chess had...

• 58:04Speaker 01

  It took an hour to make him uncomfortable. That actually is pretty good. That normally goes way faster.

• 58:08Speaker 02

  He was just fascinated by the chess, you know? Chess world is not ready for Schultz jokes. Like, we're sort of, uh...

• 58:14Speaker 00

  We're gonna get there.

• 58:14Speaker 02

  We're getting there. We're developing our thick skin. No, I mean, I... Look, I, um... In chess, you have two things. Number one, you have all women's categories. So women play women.

• 58:23Speaker 00

  But why is that?

• 58:24Speaker 02

  Well, that's what, number one. Number two, you have, um... You have something even more weird: women's titles. So grand master is 2,500.

• 58:31Speaker 00

  For women, it's what?

• 58:32Speaker 02

  2,300. It's called Women's Grand Master. WGM. There's women's titles.

• 58:36Speaker 00

  So you're a Women's Grand Master?

• 58:37Speaker 02

  Yes, and an international master. I'm not a Women's Grand Master, because I'm not eligible. We haven't progressed that far. But...

• 58:44Speaker 00

  At any point in time, if you want to be a grand master, a Women's Grand Master...

• 58:48Speaker 02

  I get...

• 58:48Speaker 00

  Oh, you're above grand master?

• 58:49Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 58:50Speaker 00

  You're international master?

• 58:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 58:51Speaker 00

  So what are you in women?

• 58:53Speaker 02

  I've exceeded the threat. That's why... That's why it doesn't make any sense.

• 58:56Speaker 00

  You can't even get higher than what you are if you were a woman?

• 58:58Speaker 02

  The women can get the open titles.

• 59:01Speaker 00

  Are you an open?

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Yes. International master is an open title. Anybody can get it.

• 59:05Speaker 00

  What's better than that?

• 59:05Speaker 02

  Grand master.

• 59:06Speaker 00

  What's the best?

• 59:07Speaker 02

  Grand ma... Well, world champion, but grand master's the highest title.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Aren't there super grand masters?

• 59:11Speaker 02

  Not officially not.

• 59:12Speaker 00

  Is there a woman that can beat you on the planet?

• 59:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, plenty.

• 59:16Speaker 02

  I don't know. No, no, no. No, there's a lot. There's a lot.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  The queen of chess, what's the...

• 59:23Speaker 02

  Judit Polgar.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the Polgar sisters were the exception to the rule. There's Queen of Chess also on Netflix. She never played in women's events. She only played the open. She got to as high as number seven in the world, which is extremely impressive. I believe that is absolutely something you can replicate, but it is very hard to do that.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  Do we know that she wasn't cheating?

• 59:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, we know. Yeah.

• 59:45Speaker 00

  But there's more places to hide the buzz.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Okay, geez, dude.

• 59:47Speaker 02

  All right, we're on like a streak here. We're on a... We're on a streak here. No, she was not cheating. Andrew Schulz said that.

• 59:57Speaker 00

  No disrespect, polar sisters. No disrespect at all.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  No, I think it starts really young. And you have a, you have a daughter.

• 1:00:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  And you're gonna see this when, I don't know how old she is, but you're gonna see this at four and five years old. Already you have to decide, like, do I put the girl in, in code? Do I put a dance? Like, where are the friends at?

• 1:00:12Speaker 00

  I've heard like at three, if you want them to be like a supreme athlete in a specific discipline, you gotta get them started.

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  And it's hard in chess, because it's, it's STEM adjacent. And already a lot of girls that age are just not, they're not put there either through culture or socially, like, their friends are not there, they're doing dance, they're doing more of the traditional girly stuff.

• 1:00:31Speaker 00

  So you don't think it's any IQ thing?

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  No, I, I, already from that age, it's like 20 to 1, boy to girl.

• 1:00:37Speaker 00

  It's just density. It's like the reason why there's so many grandmasters in India right now. It's like you have 2 billion people, and if you're gonna have 400 million playing chess, you'll have a higher number.

• 1:00:46Speaker 02

  And

• 1:00:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  The whole women's sports thing is like, the number one ranked woman in the world is 2,560. And the number one ranked man is Magnus, who is 2,850. Like, 2,560 would be top 400 or top 300 in the open category.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  So a lot of people sit at home go, "Well, no woman's going up there. Like, obviously they're not as smart." But if you could be the best in the world and make a solid career, because the-

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course. I mean, it makes sense financially for them, but maybe there's another point where it's like, as you expressed earlier, if you're not playing against the best, you can't become the best. And the game is elevated because you can play so many better people. So maybe it would be more advantageous for there to not be a women's league, so that they would play against the men.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  I think so. It's just really hard to envision how on earth you would even start doing that. Because if you just abolished it, what happens to the current players? You know, I think it's something that needs to be phased out over five to 10 years. But I'm a dude. Like, it doesn't even, you know, it's gotta be something the women want.

• 1:01:45Speaker 00

  Do they play a little different?

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  Uh, women's games are actually a lot more combative. There's a lot less safety and then draws and, yeah.

• 1:01:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  What do you mean by that?

• 1:01:55Speaker 00

  I could see it being more combative. That's all I bet, just never admit they made the wrong move. I could see a lot.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  Good thing in chess, you don't even have to argue. It's like all proven. It's not subjective.

• 1:02:08Speaker 00

  They'll find a way. They'll find a way to argue.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  Fatherhood is going well.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  When can you discover that your child is prodigious at chess?

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  Like, as early as three and four.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, because you're gonna see how well they even pick up. You know, if they're picking up the pieces, like fairy tale pieces, and sort of floating them around, that's one thing. But at some point, like, a switch will flip. And if they have a little bit of competitiveness in them, of anything, they will like chess. Then you will discover if your kid is a crier.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  Because you have to let your kid win to be happy.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  You know, it's like a very delicate act. I've known kids that are really bright, really smart, you know, in all the different subjects. They go to a chess tournament, and again, this unique feeling of insecurity and failing, and they lose, and they quit chess. They don't even want lessons anymore. They just like, don't want anything to do with chess.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  It just breaks them.

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  Do you find, like, the archetype, or maybe the stereotype for the chess player is like, you know, kind of spectrum-y, social ability maybe isn't totally there? Is that a gross stereotype that's wrong? Like, you are incredibly social. Like, your EQ is off the charts. Like, I think it's one of the reasons why your content flourishes, right? Like, you're really just good at talking and passionate about the game. Are you an anomaly or an outlier? Or is this like, just a bad representation of chess players?

• 1:03:35Speaker 02

  No, I think, okay, certainly I'm an anomaly in the sense of like, being good enough at the game from an understanding perspective, and being probably is like a one on the 1 to 10 autism spectrum.

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  Seriously. I think a lot of the strongest players in the world, particularly on the men's side, are somewhat on the spectrum. Yes. In very different ways. Then there's people who have like Asperger's. And there's a famous grandmaster from the Czech Republic, whose name is David Navara. Extremely nice guy, very open with his struggles with autism, and like, how he sort of like, lives his life now. I think he's 30 years old. He can speak like 12 languages, obviously. You know, he can, he's master at like a bunch of different things, very nice guy. Uh, but yeah, I think chess players, both at the top and amateur. People who are more on the spectrum are more drawn to the game. And even if you're not autistic per se.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  Chess players are on average, a little bit stranger, but I think it sort of falls into the category of like Magic the Gathering, you know.

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:43Speaker 02

  More gamey type, like, you know, things and uh, women? That's a fascinating question because we, we still kind of like, don't know if there's as much autism or if it's very good at masked, right?

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  Doesn't feel like it hits them that much.

• 1:04:55Speaker 02

  I, yeah, I don't know.

• 1:04:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, they got a few of them. Like, there's a few of them that got it, you know? But yeah, I guess it doesn't feel.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  Because Judith Polgar is by far the most normal top player I've like ever, yeah, she's so nice.

• 1:05:11Speaker 00

  Hikaru seems like very sociable, like it doesn't seem super.

• 1:05:15Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, um.

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  Magnus got a little bit.

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, and even he, I like, I think I've talked to him about this before and I, I don't think he, I don't think he's ever gotten a test. He's definitely like, let's say, when you compare to Hikaru, maybe a little bit more, but still very.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  He might just be Scandinavian.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:31Speaker 00

  There's a version of that.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. Like the meme of like, are you German or autistic? Yeah, and I have met plenty of Germans and, and I, I mean, in many ways I love it because they're just like, no, no, no, this is a very bad idea. No, no, you will not do this.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Are there other types of like abilities that might be seen in the modern world as like a disability, but actually is an advantage in chess? Like, are there any players that were blind, but because of that, they're able to like, see the board in a different way or?

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  There's never been a, a blind or I'm not even sure deaf, like really, really successful player. It doesn't somehow increase anything from, from the sensory standpoint. But I mean, I have played some unfortunately really weird people in my time. And the thing is that you're exposed to this as a kid, like I.

• 1:06:11Speaker 00

  What, like what's?

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  I was playing a tournament in the New Yorker Hotel, you know, as a kid and I'm just walking, I would, my mom, my mom would drop me off. I would be like 11, 12 in New York by myself, normal.

• 1:06:19Speaker 00

  Hilarious.

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  And then I'd be walking through the tournament and I have a very famous, I remember the guy's name, I'm not gonna say his full name, but you know, he was standing and like, you know, I'm walking by, he's like, hey, nice to meet you.

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  I just wiped my ass.

• 1:06:33Speaker 02

  Like, it sounds like I'm just making this up. Like, this actually happened. And I was like, well, I don't know what to do with this information. So like, you know, I'm gonna go. We used to play at the Marshall Chess Club with this one guy who was a war veteran.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  And that comes with its own set of complications. And he had a thing. He just decided at one point that everybody around him was gay and wanted to have sex with him.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Oh, that's schizophrenia.

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  And he would, you know, he would insult you at the board. You'd be eight years old and he would just be, you know. And these people end up getting banned from the Marshall. We used to have a Russian guy that used to hiss when he would, you know, blunder pieces. And he would just be like, like fucking Voldemort, you know, summoning snakes on you. And you're a kid, you're like, what's going on? You know, but you learn to kind of toughen up early. And you kind of learn to deal with the social outcasts and...

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  Do you think there's anything about the game that causes these eccentric sort of characteristics to come out?

• 1:07:26Speaker 02

  It's probably just all mental, right? I think it's something you can... A lot of people with ADHD benefit from chess as well because you can lock in on it.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  Supreme focus.

• 1:07:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I'm sure it must trigger some stuff. And, you know, if you have any self-hatred or demons and you're already very angry and...

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Do you think chess contributed to Bobby Fischer's, like, later sort of, you know, psychological issues?

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  It must have, right? Like, if the guy worked at the US Postal Office his whole life, who knows what if that would have ended up being his life? Anyway, I think many people fall into obsessions over their years. It happens to me. I'll listen to my neighbors make noise and then I just like can't unlisten to it. For other people, that's like, whatever, whatever their obsession is. Like, they end up hyperfixating and then they go a little, they go a little crazy and...

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  Who are the other eccentric characters in like the history of chess that have kind of come out? There's the one dude that's bald, he's got like the hair in the back. He died like fairly, like 55 or something, I forgot his name.

• 1:08:24Speaker 02

  Was it Tal or...?

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. This guy. Yeah, I think so.

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, Tal was like a legend. He, the thing about Tal, chess players used to be way more fascinating. So there's this guy right now, I will answer this, the guy Dubov, Russian grandmaster. He's famous because he always wears Balenciaga sweaters and he can do one... One arm pull ups. He's a Jack Calisthenics like Russian grandmaster. And he, you know, he, he has famously just been on podcasts being like, yeah, I don't really try in tournaments anymore. Cause I'm playing these kids that like have no life. Like I'm straight up playing kids that have no social life, no girlfriend, like whereas, you know, when he was young, he'd social, drink, party, stay up till three in the morning, go and play his games. These kids are like try hard spelling bee type of kids. That's sort of the, the point that he's making.

• 1:09:06Speaker 02

  And Tal back in the day was um, music, you know, composer, like he wrote music, he could speak, he would give speeches, you know, about anything, uh, self-help, you know, politics, anything. He was like a very fascinating artistic guy. He couldn't make himself tea, but like somebody could do that. And this guy was in a hospital, you know, with failing organs, left the hospital, went to play a chess tournament and beat Kasparov.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:09:31Speaker 02

  Before Kasparov was Kasparov, but like imagine, you know, and then he died, he died like the same year.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  So this, this is the kind of lore, Alekhine, the most notorious guy, you know, that video I made, a story about Alekhine.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  Fantastic video.

• 1:09:42Speaker 02

  Alekhine is insane dude, like I, I didn't even know half the shit about that video. So I knew a little bit. He was a world champion. He was the first ever Russian born world champion. Russians ran chess from the 1950s, but he was born in 1897 or something and

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  Became the world champion, then he left the, he left the Soviet Union. He didn't agree with the whole, you know, there was like a Russian revolution. He left, got, you know, went to France and then uh, was a multiple time world champion on the run from the Soviet Union. And then when World War Two broke out, he kind of aligned himself with the Nazis so that he could play chess. Because they ran Europe for five years and then articles were published.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  You gotta love chess, bro.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  Articles were published with his name, like imagine Andrew Schulz, it's like, yeah, you know, all these other chess masters, they play a Jewish style of chess, like articles with his name. And to this day, like there's a big debate, was that actually what he wrote or did they just put his name on it?

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Oh wow.

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  So the war ends, he can't play chess anymore, he's banned. He can only play on the Iberian Peninsula and then he dies. And people debate how he died. They don't know if he died because somebody, you know, uh, poisoned him, somebody got to him. They don't know which person from where got to him, or did he choke on a piece of meat? Cause that's how he died. Cause he, he took too big of a bite of steak.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  They thought he was a spy at one point.

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, chess players used to be like way more interesting, man, you know.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  Tell us more, this is fascinating.

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, this is like.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  Can you tell them the Bobby Fischer versus the whole Soviet Union? Like this is a game that was like 1973 maybe?

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  Yes, 72.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  Can you give us a little Bobby Fischer lore?

• 1:11:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, Bobby Fischer, first of all, he's born and raised in New York. Like, I taught a kid born on the same street as Fischer.

• 1:11:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  Uh, so, you know, somewhere in Brooklyn, grew up playing chess in the parks here. Um, and he, really, he rose to prominence in the 60s because he was one man taking on, from America, taking on the Soviet mafia of chess. So, they had...

• 1:11:33Speaker 00

  So, this is like Cold War derivative?

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right around the same era. There were several American grandmasters, but he was by far the best.

• 1:11:40Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:11:41Speaker 02

  And, you know, they wanted Soviet world champions. Like, you had to break into that space. They sort of ran it. Uh, he did break into it and dominated. So, Magnus right now is 30 points higher than the next person by rating. Bobby was 100.

• 1:11:55Speaker 00

  So, he was like something that nobody had seen in the chess community in modern history?

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  In, in, yeah, up to that point. And, he understood commercial viability. He refused to play the world championship for $5,000. So, his world championship in 1972, I think the prize fund was a quarter million, which was 50 times higher than it had ever been.

• 1:12:16Speaker 00

  Holy, this is 72, quarter million bucks.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:18Speaker 00

  So, we're talking about millions today.

• 1:12:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he, it was in Iceland, he was playing Spassky. It was in Reykjavik. I think like the day before the event, he was like, "I'm not going." So, to his detriment, he was also a little, little crazy. He was like, "They're gonna plant things in my room. They're Soviets, I don't trust them." You know, I, I, how can one man take on this?

• 1:12:38Speaker 00

  Entire country.

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, behemoth, you know, and he ended up going. And then, the, the story, they've made movies about this, uh, and, and I made a video about it, and, and he loses the first game, uh, to an insanely uncharacteristic mistake. Like, elementary level mistake.

• 1:12:54Speaker 00

  Do you remember the move?

• 1:12:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, he, he like took a pawn with his bishop in the corner, and his bishop got trapped. If you imagine how a bishop moves.

• 1:13:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Speaker 02

  Goes diagonal, and if you just close it, it can't come out.

• 1:13:02Speaker 00

  Yep, game over.

• 1:13:03Speaker 02

  Like, totally malfunction mentally, started saying, "The cameras are making too much noise, the cameras are giving signals to my opponent." Uh, whole thing. Threatened to leave Iceland and not continue the match. Returned, won the match.

• 1:13:17Speaker 00

  So he comes back, wins the next one.

• 1:13:21Speaker 02

  Like wins like six games in a row.

• 1:13:23Speaker 00

  Just blows him out.

• 1:13:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, blows him out. And wins the world championship in 1972. There's YouTube clips of him on talk shows with with some of the, you know, the the talk show hosts of the seventies.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  He's with Johnny Carson. He has, he has like, you know, there's like tile solving puzzle things where you have to like make a picture and then you scramble it.

• 1:13:40Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  And he's like, I can solve this in three seconds. And he just, and he just solves it. He just practiced that all day, just solving these like little pocket puzzles. Is that more or less the story?

• 1:13:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there's tons of clips of him going on talk shows and then he never, he never played another world championship match.

• 1:13:58Speaker 00

  Ever again.

• 1:13:58Speaker 02

  Ever again. 1975 Karpev from the Soviet Union. Karpev Fischer would have been.

• 1:14:04Speaker 00

  The biggest match.

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  The John Jones Nganu of chess.

• 1:14:07Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:14:08Speaker 02

  And it never happened because Fischer, I don't exactly remember the timeline after 1972, but every world champion who was a star ultimately, when they won the title, would have demands. They would want certain conditions. They would want to change the prize fund. They would want this and that. And the way chess has always worked is we don't even know where the next world championship is or how much money is committed to it. We're sitting here in the middle of 2026. The world championship is in five months.

• 1:14:37Speaker 00

  You have no clue what's gonna happen.

• 1:14:38Speaker 02

  No, there's bidding going on for it. Our international federation is much better now than it was when when Fischer was playing and much better than it has been in many years. But it's still a disorganized mess.

• 1:14:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:14:50Speaker 02

  Like it's, it's very tricky for them to, it's no FIFA. Like FIFA, I think there's a saying, I think actually Magnus said this, he's like, you can be corrupt or incompetent, but you cannot be both. And so I, I, I, you know, I think that quote is out there somewhere, but this is the the major issue is like every world championship cycle chess has ever had. And by the way, why is it a cycle? Why, why don't we just have like a tennis system where at the end of every year you have a world number one? But I digress. We very much have a, a fight system where you don't know who the next challenger is. It's kind of like, you know, who's gonna win? Unlike fight sports where it's sort of like the number one contender or maybe like the biggest draw or whoever agrees to the contractual stipulations. We run a tournament, but we run it once every two years.

• 1:15:35Speaker 02

  It's called the Candidates. And the winner who emerges from this Hunger Games competition challenges for the world championship.

• 1:15:41Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  But it's funny, because in chess, you could have a guy as the world champion, for two years, he can play terribly. But he's still the world champion.

• 1:15:48Speaker 00

  Because he hasn't lost that.

• 1:15:49Speaker 02

  That title. And in two years, if he defends the fucking title, just in one match, head to head, he's still the world champion, even if he's like down to number 50 in the world, on the world rankings.

• 1:15:59Speaker 00

  There's a version of, there's a version where I like that.

• 1:16:03Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:16:04Speaker 00

  Because like, it allows you to take chances and potentially like expand your game throughout the year, against elite competition. And then when it really matters, you shut it down.

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  I completely agree with you.

• 1:16:19Speaker 00

  Whereas you might have to play safe, because you're holding on to the belt. And I think sometimes what happens in fight sports, as you know, you're a big fight sports fan, is like, sometimes you see champions go, "I don't want to lose this", and they're not taking the same risks. And sometimes fights get a little bit more boring.

• 1:16:33Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:16:33Speaker 00

  Eh, for champions, boring is whatever. But like, there's a version where I like it for excitement purposes. But a reign of dominance is also pretty awesome.

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  Like, you just kind of want to see your champ never lose.

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  Has there ever been a massive cheating scandal that was confirmed? Like, something where it was, you know, so like, almost like a, like a Barry Bonds style? Where it's like, the greatest guy, then they realize like, oh, it actually was all.

• 1:16:58Speaker 00

  A fugazi.

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, not, unfortunately not, I don't think for a, a world championship. But there have been, yeah, there have been several. Uh, the most famous one historically is Mechanical Turk, in like the 17, 1800s. It's like a robot that plays chess, just a dude.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  Which actually is impressive to me, dude, trying to play chess underneath a board.

• 1:17:19Speaker 02

  Which makes me think like, the whole thing was kind of, but maybe he like saw the board. Maybe that's, yeah, and then he could kind of move pegs or something.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Which is kind of the inverse now, right? Where like, now you have like humans using machines to cheat? Whereas back then, you had humans using, or being machines.

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  And also, it's a bit humiliating to cheat now solo. So there's been several, but like, the solo act is, you know, you literally go to the toilet and there's a phone. So there's a famous picture of a grandmaster from Latvia, I think, a couple of years ago, who literally just like had a phone in a toilet stall. He's sitting, looking at his phone. I mean, this is like ridiculous. Couple of years ago, a grandmaster by the name of Shifchenko put, taped a phone in a toilet stall and wrote a note that said, in Spanish, because the tournament was in Spain, "Don't remove this phone. The guest will get it at the end of the day." Which is like groundbreaking cheating technique. There have been more sophisticated ones where, and again, you wonder what drives a person to cheat

• 1:18:18Speaker 02

  as like a young 20-year-old who's kind of trying to break into the top. It's obviously money. Like, he's not, he's, he's obviously struggling. I have too much empathy for these things. Some people are like, "Oh, get him out, get him out, ban him." I'm like, I don't think people cheat like for fun. I mean, he's probably struggling or whatever, mental or, or financial. And then there was a famous case at the Olympiad where there was a system of three people. A guy watching the game, texting a guy standing around the boards. And then the guy was relaying to the person playing, depending on where he was in the room, like what piece to move. Because a grandmaster doesn't have to know the move. A grandmaster just has to be told bishop. And he'll be like, "Oh shit."

• 1:18:56Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  You have to be told the move.

• 1:18:58Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  And you won't even know why. Like, an amateur won't know...

• 1:19:02Speaker 00

  That's what I was always wondering. It's like, how could you effectively communicate where to place the piece? But at a certain level, you just need to let them know which piece to move, and they'll do the calculation themselves.

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  And evaluation, yeah. If, if I'm ever confused about if something is winning or, or not winning or whatever, it's too dangerous, and you just tell me, "Best move is with the bishop." I'm like, "Oh, I know the move."

• 1:19:22Speaker 00

  We gotta bring our boy in from chess.com. Can we get him back in?

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  Go grab him.

• 1:19:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, go grab him. And also bring Max in here. Maybe Max can sit on the couch because we have... So I went to school with the kid who played young Bobby Fischer.

• 1:19:37Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 1:19:37Speaker 00

  In Searching for Bobby Fischer. I remember this, this one. I thought we went to PS6 together. We went to Wagner Middle School together, but he surprised me today. He came here.

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  I played chess at both those schools, PS6, PS9. I used to take kids like before COVID. Because I ran a program like...

• 1:19:51Speaker 00

  I was in the chess club, by the way, at PS6, dude. I'm just saying.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  That's where he learned to blunder his rook.

• 1:19:56Speaker 00

  I'm just saying. What a dumb move. Now, if I didn't do that, I don't know what, where we are in the episode. Like, maybe you'll see we play a game. But if I didn't do that move, would the play have been consistent where you would have believed it?

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  No, in about five moves, I would have been like, something's going on.

• 1:20:11Speaker 00

  It was just too pristine.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  I started thinking, okay, you played in school, you're probably like 1,200, 1,300. I've been lied to about your chess level.

• 1:20:18Speaker 00

  Well, I tried to set you up. So before we, before we played, I was like, hey, listen, I don't want to look like I'm a complete amateur. Like, I've been playing since I was a kid and like, I would say I'm a good chess player.

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hey, Danny.

• 1:20:30Speaker 00

  Hey, my boy.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  What's up?

• 1:20:32Speaker 00

  You know what's tough about, like, cause I got my bio age and I'm younger than I'm, I am.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  I know exactly what you're about to say.

• 1:20:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're kind of like, I'm good.

• 1:20:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're killing it.

• 1:20:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm doing great. Like, I'm not gonna stop drinking. God forbid I stop drinking, I age up.

• 1:20:48Mark Gagnon?

  He was only younger by a couple of years. It wasn't really that.

• 1:20:51Speaker 00

  Nah, I was younger by a lot. I think I was 34.

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:56Mark Gagnon?

  Ah, I think you have a revisionist history right now.

• 1:20:59Speaker 00

  Am I?

• 1:20:59Mark Gagnon?

  Yeah, I think it was like, probably like 38, 39, like only a couple of years.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:04Speaker 00

  I think I was 34.

• 1:21:06Mark Gagnon?

  I do remember I was the healthiest and the youngest, so.

• 1:21:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you don't have any kids and you're not even married.

• 1:21:12Mark Gagnon?

  I haven't changed a thing. I just kept doing what I've been doing.

• 1:21:14Speaker 00

  But you're not a fully grown adult.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once you pay for a wedding, all of a sudden it goes up.

• 1:21:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:21:19Speaker 00

  What are you at right now?

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  I'm still at 23 and I feel great, but I did change some things.

• 1:21:25Speaker 00

  What did you change?

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  I talked to the AI in the app and it said, I got, one, I'm eating less sugar because my resting glucose was high. That's true. That's true.

• 1:21:36Mark Gagnon?

  He's eating donuts.

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  No, don't bring that up. Can we edit that out, Miles?

• 1:21:39Speaker 00

  We were, we were together all weekends.

• 1:21:41Speaker 01

  And what did I do?

• 1:21:41Speaker 00

  You ate mad sugar.

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  No, I did not. I did not. You were eating trace L'Chas like no tomorrow.

• 1:21:46Speaker 00

  I did have a trace.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  He was going crazy.

• 1:21:49Speaker 00

  I had a trace.

• 1:21:49Mark Gagnon?

  If you're gonna fuck up.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  This is ordered out trace L'Chas. They came in a can. He like ordered it from a restaurant and it sat there for three hours and he still crushed the whole thing.

• 1:21:56Mark Gagnon?

  That's the best one.

• 1:21:57Speaker 00

  I would.

• 1:21:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:58Speaker 00

  The nice thing about a trace L'Chas is that it can be soggy.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:01Speaker 00

  Like, it doesn't get worse, it gets better.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't know because I don't really do that kind of stuff, but I'm feeling better and I started taking psyllium husk. That's a new thing I'm on.

• 1:22:10Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah?

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  It's, it's a, it's like a fiber thing that helps with my, like lipids and my, my, my heart.

• 1:22:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  I gotta lower my LDL according to function.

• 1:22:18Speaker 00

  Why you dress like guys fuck you on top?

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  No, we're not doing that. With my help. Can we keep it professional? Can we talk about our bio wages?

• 1:22:28Speaker 00

  I just realized, I don't know why. I hadn't picked up on this.

• 1:22:32Mark Gagnon?

  I know, you got fucking hoochie daddy shorts on.

• 1:22:34Speaker 00

  What are you talking about?

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  No, see, this is what happens. Y'all get jealous of my bio wage. Cause I look so young, I look like a fast ass young man.

• 1:22:42Speaker 00

  Nah, you looking crazy, man.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  No, I feel good and I look better. That's what it is. And I've been, also, I can get you guys off some stuff.

• 1:22:49Speaker 00

  Tell me about your husk or whatever.

• 1:22:51Mark Gagnon?

  Fucking RFK over here.

• 1:22:53Speaker 00

  I just don't understand this outfit.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  CoQ10, I'm also taking that. I take magnesium to sleep.

• 1:22:58Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  Taking vitamin B.

• 1:23:00Speaker 00

  And then are these impacting your life in a positive way?

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  I sometimes get nauseous if I do on an empty stomach. So that's, that's one thing that I've been trying to deal with. But I, I feel better.

• 1:23:10Speaker 00

  I mean, it can't be good for you if, if you can't eat it without food in your system already, right?

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  No, I mean, you gotta get a little something in there. Not trace latice, but you do like a little couple of eggs in the morning, you know?

• 1:23:20Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, shout out eggs, man.

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  But you, you haven't switched anything up, you're.

• 1:23:24Speaker 00

  Eggs are the shit, man.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Eggs are fire.

• 1:23:27Speaker 00

  Eggs are so fire.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:29Speaker 00

  That probably is why I'm so young.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:31Speaker 00

  Cause I'll do multiple eggs in the morning.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:23:34Mark Gagnon?

  High cholesterol.

• 1:23:35Speaker 00

  Eggs do?

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  You believe in cholesterol?

• 1:23:37Mark Gagnon?

  Not if you boil it.

• 1:23:38Speaker 00

  You have it.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  No, but I think that's, that's genetic, I think.

• 1:23:41Mark Gagnon?

  You're fucking 25 with high cholesterol.

• 1:23:43Speaker 00

  Nah, you're actually right about that.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  High compared to what? Cholesterol, you need it for your brain. That's one of the predictors of all of it, dude.

• 1:23:49Mark Gagnon?

  LDL, the bad one.

• 1:23:51Speaker 00

  No, you're, you're right about this.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  See, that's what I'm saying.

• 1:23:53Speaker 00

  One of my smartest friends said this. He's like, cholesterol is bullshit.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:23:58Mark Gagnon?

  Say that to all the people who die of fucking heart attack. You guys are fucking smart.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  They can't hear us, bro. They're dead. Oh yeah, it's not from cholesterol.

• 1:24:05Speaker 00

  No, it's not.

• 1:24:05Mark Gagnon?

  Yes, high cholesterol builds the fucking plaques and then it.

• 1:24:08Speaker 00

  No, no, no.

• 1:24:11Mark Gagnon?

  Take your health advice from Andrew Shaw.

• 1:24:14Speaker 00

  I'm thirty-four.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:16Speaker 00

  How old are you?

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  I was twenty.

• 1:24:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, why are we gonna take your advice, bro? You're twenty years old.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  I was like twenty-four, twenty-three.

• 1:24:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, he doesn't know anything.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  I was twenty-three, yeah.

• 1:24:24Speaker 00

  You're twenty-three, yeah. Why are we gonna listen to you? You don't know shit. We are healthy, man. I'm hungover as shit, but I'm healthy.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  It's a healthy pod, right?

• 1:24:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  Look.

• 1:24:35Speaker 00

  We should drink more. If you wanna, if you wanna, if you wanna check your health the way that we do, function is, function is really just what gave me the confidence I was living a great life.

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, alright.

• 1:24:47Speaker 00

  Before. And, you know, we got a hundred and sixty-plus lab tests a year. Three hundred and sixty-five bucks, a dollar a day, basically.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  And you just go in one time and you get all the, all the data?

• 1:24:57Speaker 00

  Exactly, you just go in one time. You're not doing a hundred and sixty-plus tests. They're gonna do all those tests. Anyway, the point is, you don't have to guess about your health. You know, if your girl is nagging you about what you're eating and drinking and how many nicotine pouches you do, you just let her know that you're eight years younger than you're supposed to be.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:25:18Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? What do you want me to be, twenty? How young do you want me to be?

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's starting to get weird.

• 1:25:22Speaker 00

  Exactly. So, what you're gonna do is go to, uh, functionhealth.com/flagrant. Use the code flagrant25 for a twenty-five dollar credit. Alright? BlueChew did it, bro. They did it. They did it. They upgraded, they got BlueChew Gold. That boner's coming fifteen minutes or less. I could tell you all the info about it, it doesn't really matter to you. What matters to you is that you're harder fifteen minutes or less. All the other stuff, we're talking about like thirty minutes. A lot can happen in thirty minutes. A lot can happen. You don't even know if you're getting laid thirty minutes before you get laid. Right? So now you're taking this pill, you don't even know what's gonna happen. Fifteen minutes before you get laid, you know one hundred percent you're getting laid. So they did it. They knocked it out of the park. So, that's what you're gonna do all summer. You're very welcome.

• 1:26:08Speaker 00

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• 1:26:28Speaker 04

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• 1:26:53Speaker 00

  Danny from chess.com, back in the building. We don't know where we are in the episode. I know that you had already helped me cheat and somehow we fucked it up together.

• 1:27:00Speaker 05

  Together.

• 1:27:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:02Speaker 05

  The most epic F-up of all time.

• 1:27:04Speaker 00

  No, but it was good. It was a good thing. So we were talking about like, again, like the cheating scandals and how you've had to kind of deal with that at chess.com as it's exploded and people have computers near them. And is it all algorithmically or is it like tattletaling?

• 1:27:21Speaker 05

  We have, we have an algorithm, a data, a data approach to what we do.

• 1:27:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:27Speaker 05

  And we've been doing that and relying on that for a very long time.

• 1:27:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:32Speaker 05

  As the stakes have gone up and we're faced with scandals and all kinds of crazy shit and we've seen the, you know, the attention economy blow up where people are making millions of dollars as creators or otherwise, we've invested a lot in other things. So we now have like the software where we observe people in real time, our own proprietary thing that can sync up like what's going on in someone's room with the data. And so we do, we do all kinds of things now to try to protect the millions and millions of dollars.

• 1:28:01Speaker 00

  So that's-

• 1:28:02Speaker 05

  But it's mostly data.

• 1:28:03Speaker 00

  But that's the thing that's interesting. You brought this up is like, once there's a financial incentive in something, people will find a way to get the edge, right? Like, and you saw it with sports, right?

• 1:28:14Speaker 05

  Even more than financial, if you have the whole nation like riding on this.

• 1:28:17Speaker 00

  Oh, you're right. That's also true.

• 1:28:18Speaker 05

  I'm almost wondering if there's ever been a case where, you know, there's-

• 1:28:22Speaker 02

  Like, let's say Magnus is playing like the champion from like a Gulf country that has a bunch of oil money. Could they pay someone in Magnus's team to be like, hey, here's $200,000, here's a million dollars? What opening do you think he plays?

• 1:28:34Speaker 05

  Well, now you're talking collusion, which has existed in chess for a long time. I mean, Levy's been taking us down a lot of the different rabbit holes of like Fisher versus the USSR and like there's been...

• 1:28:43Speaker 00

  Wait, tell us the collusion stories.

• 1:28:44Speaker 05

  So there's been cheating in chess in the form of like, pay someone to lose, pay someone to draw, predetermined on the result. There's also been...

• 1:28:53Speaker 00

  Do you have specific times in history where this happened?

• 1:28:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, tell us.

• 1:28:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, when I was eight years old. I'm not even joking. When I was like, we'll get into the more serious ones. Yeah, when I was a kid,

• 1:29:05Speaker 02

  not exactly the same. I was playing my friend. We were at a local tournament. We both had two points. I was like, you want to just like play as fast as we can and see like who wins and we'll just like split the prize money? And he was like, okay, because I was a very convincing like eight-year-old kid. And I ended up winning and we like split it. And then he went home and told his mom.

• 1:29:19Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:29:20Speaker 02

  So his mom called my dad and was like, yo, your son's a fucking...

• 1:29:25Speaker 00

  Entrepreneur.

• 1:29:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:28Speaker 05

  Good friend, you split the money. So what's funny is like, and we'll come back to that with the Soviet Union thing, because the truth is, you could argue there's like levels to the offense, because those are just two kids messing around. One was an entrepreneur, future business leader. But the Fisher thing is because he was literally America versus the world. Every one of the top players at the time was a Russian or a state of the Soviet Union. And Fisher would be in this situation where if one of the Russians beat each other and they got ahead, if he even gets a single draw, now he's a half a point behind. Everyone else starts losing to the guy who won, so that Fisher can't catch him in the standing.

• 1:30:07Speaker 00

  Oh, so they would lose on purpose to maintain dominance.

• 1:30:11Speaker 05

  And they were under pressure from the Soviets to do so. And so part of the thing is like... It became, it became interesting that they had to start devising formats. Part of the reason for match play is that the best way to determine a one-on-one kind of mono we mono thing is to kind of eliminate the idea that somebody could throw a game. Cause in chess, it's almost impossible to detect someone losing on purpose.

• 1:30:33Speaker 00

  Why, why is that?

• 1:30:34Speaker 05

  Engines now, just because it's, it's hard. They're so good at controlling it. It'd be like someone shaving points in basketball. But because there's like, nobody else even involved in the team where they, where like, people would start to go, that was a weird way to handle that possession. Dude didn't swing the ball, didn't run the fucking offense, whatever. In chess, you can throw a game and no one can really say that you did it on purpose. It's very, very difficult to do. But, but by the way, we don't talk about this one a lot. Even Levy and I don't, we talk about everything, but we also have an algorithm that detects sandbagging. We have, we have an algorithm that detects whether someone is playing below their DNA, not just above their DNA. So we've invested in this, but for a long time, it was just not a thing you could control.

• 1:31:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, which that is an insulting update to get. I've had friends that are like, they'll get a notice on chess.com like, hey, we detected your sandbagging.

• 1:31:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  They're like, dude, I just suck.

• 1:31:24Speaker 05

  So there are reasons, because we've started investing in like prize events and it's not just money anymore for my magnus, it's money for streamers and creators. There's reasons to cheat of all kinds.

• 1:31:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:34Speaker 05

  And so, um, so we've had to invest in that too. But, but back to the, the funny thing about the culture of chess though, is that even though what those two eight-year-old kids did was wrong and Levy just confessed to cheating on, on flagrant, um, the, um, the culture of the game has been starved for money that the other way to look at that is two Soviet grandmasters who weren't at the top, weren't being treated like kings, they're starving, they have families to feed, they show up and it's like, dude, if you beat me, the other guy who's already half a point ahead of you is going to win. But if, but if I beat you, like I'll make sure I'm at least tying that guy because I have his score. So we'll split the prize money for sure. And so a lot of it was like a broken sport, no commercial viability. Guys who are starving.

• 1:32:20Speaker 05

  And so I'm, I sound like I'm a cheating apologist, but I really, you know.

• 1:32:23Speaker 00

  You understand the mechanisms of play.

• 1:32:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, I understand the mechanism and it's, it's, I don't think it's totally fair to put everything in the same box when the truth is the game has been sort of out of whack for a very long time in terms of the amount of money coming in versus the, the amount of money being distributed to players across the world. So.

• 1:32:40Speaker 00

  Is it still as representative of patriotism today?

• 1:32:45Speaker 05

  It really is.

• 1:32:46Speaker 00

  Do you have these country rivalries that exist on the app? Or is it now there's just so many players and now there's other things that the countries are competing on?

• 1:32:55Speaker 05

  I think it's both. I think Levy touched on the fact that there's, okay, well, people revere chess for whatever reason. Like billionaires still just, they just want to fuck with Magnus. They just want to hang out with them.

• 1:33:06Speaker 00

  That's what I was asking him about, yeah.

• 1:33:07Speaker 05

  And so you have this weird culture of not just, I touched on the billionaire thing to get to the government thing, which is a lot of the money that is flowing into the young Indian contingent and the young Uzbekistan. There's a number of top players who are young Uzbeks who are on the rise. A lot of that money is coming in from government funding because they want to be associated as the country with the most intellectually elite, you know, competitors on the planet. And so I think there is something to the national pride. And then on chess.com, I mean, you guys were joking about how you play someone with a flag and suddenly you find yourself like you hate everybody from, you know, from whatever, right? And like, so there is, I think, there's a lot that can happen. And we actually, we actually don't like that our platform sometimes, you know, can be involved in geo, geopolitical, whatever.

• 1:33:52Speaker 05

  But the truth is like, I think people revere the idea of being good at chess because of the association they have of whatever, being smart.

• 1:33:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:00Speaker 05

  So, yeah.

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  I mean, beating a guy from Ukraine in the middle of a war, you feel bad. You know what I mean? It's like, ah, man, I should just give them this one.

• 1:34:06Speaker 02

  I actually feel like.

• 1:34:08Speaker 05

  But you can't.

• 1:34:08Speaker 02

  When I play the Ukrainians, I'm like, they're going to be tough, like they're going to be resilient. I play, yeah, and I mean.

• 1:34:14Speaker 00

  Don't you like, don't you guys have something else to be doing right now?

• 1:34:18Speaker 00

  Make some drones or something like that.

• 1:34:19Speaker 01

  Sometimes there's downtime in war.

• 1:34:20Speaker 00

  Play a four hour game of chess, like something happening.

• 1:34:23Speaker 02

  I mean, the best, so there was a grand master who played for many years for, for Lavia, but he's actually Ukrainian Igor Kovalenko, and he straight up went to war. Like, he's a 2700, very good player, like perennial top 40 in the world. He straight up like went into the barracks. He like had a helmet on. He was like, he was with the gun, like he was with the soldiers. It's nuts. I mean, over the last few years, yeah, there have been like reports of, you know, a famous chess coach or a famous chess player just straight up dying in.

• 1:34:51Speaker 05

  Holy shit.

• 1:34:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's crazy. It really is crazy. I was shocked China didn't have more of a, of a chess kind of revolution because they, they held on to both. They still have the women's world champion. She's the best player in the world. And then they had Ding, who won the world championship against Nepo in 2023. And at some point they had both the men's and women's gold medals as a team. So they swept. I was like.

• 1:35:14Speaker 05

  Here comes the, you know, they have Chinese chess, but like, they're gonna, you know, they're gonna dominate. Look at it. No.

• 1:35:19Speaker 01

  Is it because Go takes up some of the?

• 1:35:21Speaker 05

  I do think it is partly because of that.

• 1:35:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like the white and black tile, like territorial game.

• 1:35:28Speaker 00

  Oh, it's a, okay, okay, okay.

• 1:35:29Speaker 01

  It's another like board strategy game, but it's super popular in China.

• 1:35:32Speaker 00

  Got it, got it.

• 1:35:33Speaker 05

  But chess became a state-sponsored sport in China, not, not dissimilar from the Soviet Union when it was funding chess. And so China went from like zero chess culture to two decades of having, you know, dozens of grandmasters in, in, in the top 50 in the world. Ding Li Ren became world champion. Ho Yi Fong has been the best women's player in the world since Judah Polgar.

• 1:35:53Speaker 02

  And she went to Oxford.

• 1:35:54Speaker 05

  And she went to Oxford. And so what's interesting is China really invested. They established or achieved their goal to some degree and it hasn't sustained in a way where India, it's like, it's the mother, it's the birthplace of chess, had nothing, but now it's like, we're gonna, it's gonna be India's world and the rest of the chess players are living in it for the, for a very long time.

• 1:36:15Speaker 00

  Can a country have a competitive chess program if it's not state-sponsored?

• 1:36:20Speaker 05

  It's a good question. I mean, I don't, I don't know.

• 1:36:23Speaker 00

  Does America sponsor it in any way?

• 1:36:24Speaker 02

  You mean, what, so to work backwards, what, do you want one or two prodigies from a country or you want like a, like dominance?

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  Like a dynasty?

• 1:36:33Speaker 00

  I wouldn't even say dominance and dynasty. I would just say like a, a significant population of elite players. So they don't have to be the one or two, but like you would have a few hundred people that are competitive from that country.

• 1:36:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. It's definitely possible, but it's definitely limited to like United States. You'll get maximum five from all of South America. Africa, chess is really not that big at all there. And like the same goes for maybe the Caribbean. Australia, no, like that part of the world, no. It's, it's gotta be like really Europe, you know.

• 1:37:07Speaker 05

  What you're touching on, and it goes back to what Levy was saying earlier, is that

• 1:37:12Speaker 05

  The chess world is broken financially because the amount of money flowing in is not representative of the commercial viability of the product. Meaning...

• 1:37:21Speaker 00

  You guys are making it all.

• 1:37:23Speaker 05

  We have a subscription business. We have a business that's built on people who want to get better. So we actually invest heavily in chess as a media IP and build a content network ecosystem with creators and partnerships. And we invest in professionals because they all provide reasons for Mark to want to get better at chess. And then he's inspired by Magnus and he watched a Levy video. He's like, "Fuck, I'm going premium on chess.com." So we invest in like essentially a loss leader for the idea that we believe chess, you know, we do believe chess is good for people, better than most games. And that mission is fueled by the investment we make into professionals. But it loses money. What I'm getting to is like...

• 1:38:01Speaker 00

  It's like having a store on Fifth Avenue.

• 1:38:03Speaker 05

  It's like having a store on Fifth Avenue, right? But the brand gets, the brand of chess, most people find their way to chess.com, even though there are a lot of other places. And so the reason you kind of need a government program, to your point, is that you have to be investing fake money. And fake money can either be philanthropic or it could be corrupt, but it's not representative of the commercial viability of the game. And so whether it comes from the old USSR or Gazprom or Krasinski and Putin administration...

• 1:38:31Speaker 00

  Or some benevolent billionaire.

• 1:38:32Speaker 05

  Or some benevolent billionaire, it's still not representative of the fact that not enough people are watching the game. The players are not investing in themselves enough. The biggest stars on the planet are not the best players in the game, which is great. But then the players resent the biggest stars on the planet.

• 1:38:46Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 1:38:47Speaker 05

  Because he's making more money than them or the Botev sisters are making more money than them. And so I think we're at the beginning of what I hope is like in 20 years, people look back and go like, "Ah, that was, that was a short period of time before we had some major breakthroughs and chess was inevitably going to get on ESPN and these things because the content creators helped lead the way." That's my hope, but anyway.

• 1:39:07Speaker 00

  Here's the, here's the thing I wonder, right? Because like poker had this huge come up. Like I remember this movie, Rounders. Do you remember that, like Ed Norton, Matt Damon movie when we were kids? Do you remember that movie?

• 1:39:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, you guys are older than me, so I...

• 1:39:17Speaker 00

  You've never seen Rounders, though?

• 1:39:18Speaker 05

  I'm 30.

• 1:39:19Speaker 00

  30, oh, you're young, very young.

• 1:39:20Speaker 05

  You've never seen Rounders?

• 1:39:21Speaker 00

  It was, it probably just missed you by like five years or something like that. But like before rounders, after rounders come out, the like the poker tour and Hold'em just like absolutely explodes. And now it's not as popular as it was, but like there was a moment where it was just like all over ESPN and you hear these like characters, Chris Moneymaker. Doyle Brunson or whatever.

• 1:39:39Speaker 05

  And who's a master. I don't want to cut you off. I thought, I thought poker also blew up on TV when they started showing the cards.

• 1:39:44Speaker 00

  Well, so, so the way that they shot it was good. And then they kind of like golfified it is what I would say where it's like, you don't need to follow every shot. You need to follow the important shots.

• 1:39:53Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:39:54Speaker 00

  So if like you have 200 people playing and you're just focusing on that one hand where the river card comes out and that the guy was not supposed to win wins. Now it just seems like this explosive, exciting thing. There's a version of like what I see you when you're calling these games. You're taking the most interesting games and you're speeding them up.

• 1:40:13Speaker 05

  It's cut down.

• 1:40:14Speaker 00

  Cut down one move after another. But in order for commercial viability for the players, you need audience and they either need to fill up stadiums or you need it to be streaming on something. So how do you make it interesting to be streamed is, is a tricky one.

• 1:40:27Speaker 05

  And that's kind of what we're working on now. And Levy's point about the pocket cam is only really relevant to chess because what that did is it gave the viewer more knowledge than Phil Ivey. It gave the viewer more knowledge than Phil Hellmuth. And what that does is it puts you on the edge of your seat because you're like, fuck, he's got jacks, but he doesn't know that she caught the third eight on the river. Like, and he's going in, right? And so now you don't turn away.

• 1:40:48Speaker 00

  How do you do that with chess?

• 1:40:49Speaker 05

  And we have been unable to do that with chess to some degree. We've been trying. I've invested in, I've called it like to, to the team. I'm like, we need to make chess with no sound. Where you can look at it and like you're in a bar and you see who's winning and you have instant context like you can with a sports game. So we've, we've tried to invest in how to graphically tell the story, how to bring that to life, how to do our pocket cam of chess, which is we've done this evaluation bar where at least you can look at a game and go, ah, white's better, black's better, because I, I quickly get this context of who's winning. So we're working on that. But then the last point to, to your, I think the most important point is stories, like people have to give a shit emotionally.

• 1:41:25Speaker 00

  Well, they'll do that with you guys building up the characters. I think that that exists right there. Also like there's almost like a GPS ification of the game. Where it's like, once you get deep into a game, there's only a couple moves that makes sense. And those moves make sense to like different percentages, right? Like,

• 1:41:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:43Speaker 00

  I had that huge blunder, obviously. So like, doing that would take your, if we're looking at like GPS as a metaphor for it, like, that would take you way out of your way for victory. But there is a version where it's like moving your rook here gives you an 80% advantage on that evaluation metric, or whatever you were saying.

• 1:42:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Maybe this is about that. I was gonna make a point about the previous point, but,

• 1:42:05Speaker 00

  Make it, make it.

• 1:42:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I will. We're living in fascinating times in sports where we are seeing the athletes now have come from money and been descendants of players.

• 1:42:16Speaker 00

  This is NBA classic.

• 1:42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, NBA, tennis, I Google a player I've never heard of in tennis, father is a hedge fund manager, billionaire,

• 1:42:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:42:24Speaker 02

  All of them.

• 1:42:25Speaker 00

  Or played and won like two grandmas.

• 1:42:26Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, or like both parents were athletes.

• 1:42:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:29Speaker 02

  And there are some sports where this is not quite the case. You still see a lot of rags to riches stories in fighting, but you also see it in like soccer a little bit more, you know, and baseball and hockey also. It's regional, it's climate, it's when you're born. And it is something you have to start young and you have to buy the equipment. Chess, barrier to entry is like zero. I mean, it's very, very little. And so, we see parts all over the world where you can have massively strong, young contingent of players with a budget of like, you know, a hundred dollars for like thousands of kids just get these chess sets. And resources now are much more available than than ever for improving. And if if state sponsorship thrown into the mix messes a lot of things up because

• 1:43:13Speaker 02

  you have kids from India and Uzbekistan who might be becoming like millionaires at 19 and 20, tons of resources. And every top player in the country is plugged into making them better. And so there's this big rise, whereas in the United States, you know, you got, for example, Abhimanyu Mishra, Indian-American kid, he became the youngest grandmaster ever at 12. They, I mean, they really tried to break that record. That's the thing in chess, none of these youngest ever records are accidents. The parents take them out of school, like you gotta try to break the record.

• 1:43:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's your life.

• 1:43:42Speaker 02

  He doesn't have a single major commercial sponsor in the United States.

• 1:43:45Speaker 00

  Why not?

• 1:43:46Speaker 02

  Maybe like you don't know, I don't know if it's a mix of they haven't been offered, or it has to be either it hasn't been offered enough, or they're tough to work with.

• 1:43:53Speaker 00

  Why didn't chess.com get involved with them?

• 1:43:55Speaker 05

  So now you're hitting on the next point, which is the problem with the lack of commercial viability is the only profitable, even though we're a big company, we're very profitable, the only profitable company capable of sponsoring has no reason to do it, because everyone's on our site. There's no reason, there's no marketing.

• 1:44:13Speaker 02

  It's kind of philanthropic at that point.

• 1:44:14Speaker 05

  And so we do have a few sponsorships. Some of them are more philanthropic. We invest in a lot of after-school programs. We do all kinds of work and we have a scholastic site and we do the things that grow the game and give back, but on an individual sponsor level, I don't really need chess.com's logo on your shoulder.

• 1:44:30Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:44:31Speaker 05

  Like, not in the same way, right? And so it's tricky. Like, I've always been telling, I've been telling the players, and Levy's heard me give this speech many times, so forgive me, Levy, but I'm like, guys, like, I don't want to see chess.com on your arm. I want to see fucking Delta and American competing, and Amex and Visa competing over here. Let me be your partner. If you can invest in yourself five fucking seconds, I will, I will go a mile towards you. Meaning, give a little bit of effort on social media, and we will invest in your team. We have the staff. We know how to do this stuff. We have helped build and support creators. Like, this is our game. And it's very frustrating, because, I mean, I'll give you even more. We're debuting a film at Tribeca this week, which is a show called Grandmasters, which is our drive to survive for chess. We've been filming this documentary for two years.

• 1:45:13Speaker 02

  Is Levy?

• 1:45:14Speaker 05

  At the time of this recording, anyway. This is around Tribeca, so I'm sorry for that. At the time of this recording, we are premiering a film at Tribeca. It's a three-episode mini-series, Drive to Survive. It was so difficult to get very few of the players to cooperate with this, even though they just don't understand that Drive to Survive didn't add crooked numbers to F1. It added zeros onto the industry in value, right? And they, they're very short-sighted, also because...

• 1:45:41Speaker 05

  Not only the short sighted, maybe because they're uncomfortable or on media, they don't have as much, you know, experience with it, but also back to the point about it being commercially out of whack. What is their reason? Many of the top players are actually getting very good, high six and low seven-figure salaries for doing nothing. Because the amount of money going into the game from fake money, from benevolent billionaires and governments that are out of whack, makes the young Indian guys like, "Ah, I hear you chess.com and Danny, you gave a good speech about how you want Delta and AMEX, but I don't really need this and I'm just gonna keep playing chess." So we're always back to the square one of like, how do I trick these guys into doing something good for them?

• 1:46:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:46:19Speaker 05

  How do I trick these guys?

• 1:46:20Speaker 00

  Why not have a creative agency that you sign certain players to and then you just outsource all that?

• 1:46:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, we need like a CAA just for chess.

• 1:46:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, or just like a marketing agency. Then you go like, "Hey, listen, if you guys want to do it and, you know, they're gonna build out all your socials and find things that are authentic to you."

• 1:46:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. They would, maybe, but it's even hard when you show them the value. I'm not gonna name any players, but I've had like one-on-one conversations like, "Hey, are you sure you don't want to put this microphone on and talk for like 10 minutes?" And they're like, "No."

• 1:46:47Speaker 00

  I respect it. There's a purity to it.

• 1:46:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:51Speaker 01

  Or like a Substack or like some type of way they can just get their ideas out. Like if they're uncomfortable talking.

• 1:46:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, but I think Andrew's right that we, you know, we need, we need the marketing agency to do the work for them.

• 1:47:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, you just need to outsource it.

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  What about the World Cup? Like, I know that there's obviously international turn outs, but like, is there a version where it's like, "Hey, with the best five Americans, best five Indians, best five..."

• 1:47:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have, we have the Olympia. It's every two years. Even that, it's hard to, chess doesn't market itself well enough for that to be an event that people look forward to every year. Chess also has this like unique thing where even though it's a sport, you play it and you follow it and it's part of your life and you play it with your kids. Like, it's tailor-made for like, watching and knowing when everything is happening. Nobody watches or knows when anything is happening.

• 1:47:33Speaker 00

  What is, what is the impetus for watching? Like, we have to, I think the thing about the World Cup or the Olympics is so interesting is that we'll watch sports that we don't care about simply because there's patriotism attached to it, right? So we'll watch curling and we really love America. America's going up against Canada and curling. With chess, you actually have an investment in the sport. People love the Now they know the characters. Maybe we just have to find a way where it's digestible on a TV. You've done it.

• 1:47:59Speaker 05

  I think we're on track and I think, I mean, you know.

• 1:48:01Speaker 00

  Well, what is the best way? Like, what is the most digestible?

• 1:48:03Speaker 05

  I think we're nailed it with cut downs, actually.

• 1:48:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, well, here's the thing. Like, the way it works now is I would imagine if you take an entire pool of people that are gonna, you know, watch the world championship, which is our big thing, or whatever. My recap is gonna drop for the first day. And that's when 90% of the audience that didn't watch live is gonna go, oh, fuck, I didn't even know this was happening. Now they're gonna tune in every single day live and also maybe more generally to catch the post. Why not live? I just found out French Open was going on some week or two ago. It's on the TV every morning after I, you know, watched like, whatever, First Take or like some sports highlights or anything. It's just there. I'm gonna tune in and I'm watching on mute. That's the thing. I'm gonna watch it on mute on the smart TV in the middle of the room. I'll be like, oh, Ogier Aliassime is like playing, Sinner is playing, Djokovic is playing. Oh, I see the score. I can watch. Chess is like,

• 1:48:50Speaker 02

  I don't know what the hell is going on because with it off, no one's explaining anything. The board is this big, the player is this big. You got a room for the commentators. And then like, how long is this gonna take? You know, is this gonna take two hours, three hours? What's the clock situation? They give more time?

• 1:49:04Speaker 00

  What is the most interesting part of the game? Like, obviously, it's not watching the guys' heads thinking. That's not fun to watch.

• 1:49:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:12Speaker 00

  What is the most, what I found was the most interesting part is like when you were doing these breakdowns. It's Alekhine, that Alekhine versus Babalu or something. What was the guy's name?

• 1:49:21Speaker 05

  Bogalubov.

• 1:49:22Speaker 00

  Bogalubov. But it was specifically you doing this thing about like him sacrificing his queen. And the way that you were speaking about it is he would get the pawns to the other side, he would get queen again, he'd sacrifice it again. And every time he'd like slowly bully him into this position. And to me, it felt like watching a crazy hand withhold him.

• 1:49:42Speaker 05

  But the benefit is that he already has the story.

• 1:49:44Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:49:44Speaker 05

  And, and he's doing it having known the game. Because to your point, Popper really started to break through with the pocket cam and then back to the cut down theory. They reverse engineered the hands to focus on because they know who won and they're telling the story of who makes it to the final table. We, we are preparing to do this. It's what we're trying to do with this Drive to Survive thing, the thing that we're premiering. So we are, I believe, on the precipice of finally figuring this out. And so in some ways, Because I couldn't get the players to cooperate, or we couldn't coordinate on what the best live broadcast was, I was like, I have this bickering dysfunctional family, let me just bring the cameras in and make it a reality TV show.

• 1:50:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:50:18Speaker 05

  Because instead of trying to fix the problem, let's just, so a lot of this show is super dramatic. It's like behind the scenes, it's raw and it's arguments about this problem. And it's because it was like, well, if you can't fix them, join them, right? Join the dysfunction. So, but I think the cut down, and then I'll bring this up only because I know earlier you were saying you hated the clock. The second most exciting thing about live chess is when people are under time pressure.

• 1:50:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:50:39Speaker 05

  Because when someone's making moves and you see, so Levy does a great job at the cut downs. You know the story, you find the highlights, you focus on the sacrifice, you tell a great tale. In live chess, honestly, the two most exciting elements are the two things off the board, which is when someone is low on time and they're freaking out. And now the eval bar, so it's equal, Magnus makes a move, because he was about to lose on time, makes a move and the eval bar drops. Like, oh shit, he blundered. Is Gukesh gonna see it? Is he gonna lose? Gukesh moves because he's only got two seconds, eval bar goes up, like, fuck, he missed it. Like, that drama has really changed live chess and has helped us a lot. So I think when people start seeing that on TV, I'm hopeful, that is gonna be like, people like, man, this is more exciting than we thought.

• 1:51:23Speaker 05

  Along with hopefully some of the cut down approach that.

• 1:51:26Speaker 00

  What's the quickest game you can play?

• 1:51:28Speaker 05

  Quickest in theory is you can play like 30 seconds per player, but that's online, one minute per player.

• 1:51:34Speaker 00

  How fast does that game go?

• 1:51:35Speaker 05

  It's very fast.

• 1:51:37Speaker 01

  A minute total.

• 1:51:38Speaker 05

  My favorite is Bullet on the computer. You boot up a game in like a minute. And I've gotten to 3100 on chess.com in that and like 3000 in Speed Chess. Four hours of a game, I can't, like, I can't do it anymore. One minute, one minute per player.

• 1:51:53Speaker 00

  One minute per player. So you have one minute for all the total moves you're gonna make in the entire game. So you are predicting what that person's gonna do. If they don't do the thing that you predict they're gonna do, you still have to make a move.

• 1:52:04Speaker 05

  You have to adapt like immediately.

• 1:52:05Speaker 01

  Is there a way, like, forgive me, I haven't seen all like the major broadcasts, but is there a way to get an over the table and then like, AI or just a visual representation of all the possible moves?

• 1:52:17Speaker 00

  That's what I was thinking with the GPS.

• 1:52:18Speaker 05

  I like that. So funny thing we did, we were probably early this like five years ago at our Pro Chess League Championship we held in San Francisco. Eye tracking technology was like breaking through and we hooked up the players with an eye tracker. So that you could get like a heat map of where they're focused. You could see what they're trying to calculate and we leaned into it as best we could. But the truth is the tech was kind of clunky at the time and nothing feels weirder than like leaning into a storyline where you find out, oh shit, the tracker was broken. And then like, you know, now you're like, ah, fuck, I'm not going to lean on this tail. But I do think the combination of like AI, like heart rate, dude's nervous, eye tracking. There are ways that I think the future is probably bright because what are we trying to do?

• 1:53:01Speaker 05

  We're trying to bring what's in a dude's head out.

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:04Speaker 05

  And that's many ways why chess was built for, for people like Levy in the digital age. Because one of the things about the online presentation of the game is now Levy can say the thing he could never say in front of a person. Cause it would be distracting them or rude. So he's just like talking shit. He's having fun. He's singing a song. He's making, he's making jokes. And so chess in some ways was like, was kind of born for the streaming revolution. Because of all the things about it that you want to know, that you haven't been able to know, these guys can now open up and talk. So anyway.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. I just think it's an interesting, like if I'm watching it live and assuming there's a clock and so there's now we're, you know, condensed on time. If it's like, okay, here's the possible options he could play, knowing the way he plays. And then all of a sudden you see all the lights light up and you see the board light up and you say, if, you know, his queen can go here, here, here. And then showing the optimal moves that the queen can make versus the suboptimal. And then having the commentator talk through all the possible moves. Oh, I think he will just go pawn.

• 1:53:58Speaker 00

  And it's like football.

• 1:53:59Speaker 05

  It's like, it's like that line of scrimmage right there.

• 1:54:01Speaker 00

  Tony Romo's there. It's like, okay, it's third and three, you know, they got, you're probably going to run the ball. They're probably going to run this sweet play. And then you see them do it and everybody goes, holy shit, Tony Romo is.

• 1:54:10Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  Fucking.

• 1:54:11Speaker 05

  No, you're right though. Half the content is them debating what they're going to do, not what they actually do. It's then like trying to think.

• 1:54:16Speaker 00

  And that's interesting for the casual like me, like I, that's what I liked about how you were explaining that moment. Like I needed you to present to me why it was so interesting because I don't know.

• 1:54:26Speaker 05

  I need you to scream the rook every time.

• 1:54:30Speaker 00

  How do you put this into 30 seconds?

• 1:54:32Speaker 05

  Uh, this, I, this, I'm not sure.

• 1:54:34Speaker 01

  I might be able to figure it out.

• 1:54:35Speaker 00

  Here, when, when you make it, so when you're doing, oh, good. Did you get it? The, when you do a 30 second game, are you getting to the end of the game? Are you getting to a checkmate? Or is it often you just run out of time?

• 1:54:49Speaker 02

  Online, both, you can make enough moves theoretically. Because when you pre-move online, you set a move to play automatically.

• 1:54:57Speaker 00

  Like, could you just whoop my ass real quick when we both do 30 seconds? But I'll actually try to win?

• 1:55:01Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:55:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:02Speaker 05

  And try to just get your pieces out as fast as you can.

• 1:55:03Speaker 00

  Alright, ready?

• 1:55:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, you gotta, hold on.

• 1:55:05Speaker 00

  You ready? Set it? And I just go?

• 1:55:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have to make a move first, and then press bug.

• 1:55:11Speaker 00

  Oh, Jesus.

• 1:55:12Speaker 02

  I didn't even lose a second.

• 1:55:16Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:55:16Speaker 05

  Let me match his... Full spose bishop out. Love the commentary.

• 1:55:21Speaker 01

  Now Levy pulls out his knight. This is interesting. He's defending that pawn.

• 1:55:24Speaker 02

  Shulz going for a four-move checkmate because he thinks I'm brain dead.

• 1:55:28Speaker 00

  No, but I also have other things that I could do here, you know?

• 1:55:31Speaker 02

  Don't lose on time, though, that would be... Then I could be like, "I beat Andrew Shulz in seven seconds." What a YouTube video title, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:55:39Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:55:41Speaker 05

  Alright, Levy opens the center, and he's got tricks.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  Pawn putting pressure there right in the center, this is... Interesting positioning control.

• 1:55:49Speaker 00

  Oh, man, he's good. Man, he's good when I'm not playing with anybody that's helpful. Man, he's good, he's good, he's good.

• 1:55:57Speaker 02

  See, a lot of people think it has to do with how smart you are. No, that doesn't. A lot of good chess players are morons.

• 1:56:02Speaker 05

  That's true.

• 1:56:04Speaker 00

  Okay. Is that alright? I had to, right?

• 1:56:09Speaker 05

  See, if you're playing, that was actually... Takes a bit of really good.

• 1:56:12Speaker 02

  You got 50 seconds, though.

• 1:56:14Speaker 05

  50 seconds.

• 1:56:14Speaker 00

  Oh, shit. Okay.

• 1:56:18Speaker 05

  I'm gonna start getting some pieces moving.

• 1:56:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I gotta start getting some pieces moving, right?

• 1:56:22Speaker 02

  Another fun thing would be me and Danny playing 30-second chess against each other. That would be, that will show you like that.

• 1:56:28Speaker 05

  That would be the speed.

• 1:56:29Speaker 00

  Oh, maybe we have to do that.

• 1:56:30Speaker 02

  We can.

• 1:56:31Speaker 00

  Immediately after this.

• 1:56:32Speaker 02

  Because you're gonna just think and end up losing on time. That's what...

• 1:56:34Speaker 00

  Oh, sorry.

• 1:56:37Speaker 00

  Uh, I don't know why I did that. What a fucking dumb move that was.

• 1:56:40Speaker 02

  No, you're still good.

• 1:56:43Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:56:46Speaker 00

  Jesus.

• 1:56:47Speaker 05

  Oh. Yeah, that's tough. You're in check right there.

• 1:56:50Speaker 02

  91?

• 1:56:51Speaker 00

  I'm in check?

• 1:56:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, check.

• 1:56:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:56:53Speaker 02

  You only have one legal move.

• 1:56:54Speaker 05

  He'd fort your rook.

• 1:56:55Speaker 00

  I have one legal move.

• 1:56:56Speaker 02

  To the right.

• 1:56:57Speaker 00

  I can't go here. Oh, yeah.

• 1:56:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:57:01Speaker 02

  Check.

• 1:57:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have one.

• 1:57:03Speaker 02

  Oh, that's actually stopping what I wanted to do, which is annoying.

• 1:57:11Speaker 00

  And I can't castle.

• 1:57:12Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:57:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, there you go.

• 1:57:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay. But you're gonna end up losing on time, yeah.

• 1:57:22Speaker 02

  Danny and I looked at each other and we thought you were gonna go here, just keep running. And I had this really sick checkmate.

• 1:57:27Speaker 00

  And then it's over.

• 1:57:28Speaker 02

  Queen is cutting these squares and the knight is...

• 1:57:31Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 1:57:32Speaker 05

  All right, let me play Levy.

• 1:57:34Speaker 00

  He's addicted. I love it.

• 1:57:35Speaker 05

  This is gonna be good.

• 1:57:36Speaker 02

  Thing is, you know, even us, like...

• 1:57:38Speaker 00

  This is so much fun.

• 1:57:40Speaker 02

  I have a...

• 1:57:40Speaker 00

  The speed, the speed game really kind of opens the shop, huh?

• 1:57:43Speaker 05

  And that's because you're not wrong that like the best chess is... The best chess is not speed chess.

• 1:57:49Speaker 00

  It's not, because you're... I want you to sit there and ponder.

• 1:57:51Speaker 02

  You wanna play one minute or 30 seconds? I feel like one minute.

• 1:57:53Speaker 00

  One minute, do a minute.

• 1:57:54Speaker 05

  Do a minute.

• 1:57:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:55Speaker 02

  Okay, that's at least we can... It's not just gonna be... Physical speed chess is really... Because you're gonna end up just like smashing into like each other's hands and knocking over pieces and... You really shouldn't knock over pieces in a tournament and then press the clock. It's like bad etiquette.

• 1:58:08Speaker 05

  It's rude.

• 1:58:08Speaker 02

  But if you're playing online, the speed is like unbelievable.

• 1:58:11Speaker 05

  Is there such a thing as a disrespectful move? Like, it's illegal, but what you've done is disrespectful.

• 1:58:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, when I get tilted online, I play this. I play the diamond opening. I go boop, boop, boop, boop.

• 1:58:21Speaker 05

  You're just gonna write that?

• 1:58:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, four turns.

• 1:58:23Speaker 05

  Why?

• 1:58:24Speaker 02

  Because I want to beat somebody four moves down. Like, basically, my opponent's gonna get like four optimal moves and I have this and I'm still gonna win because fuck you.

• 1:58:30Speaker 00

  And is that the best setup? Do you want something like that? That's a great opening.

• 1:58:33Speaker 05

  If you can, controlling the center is the best.

• 1:58:35Speaker 00

  Okay, let's...

• 1:58:37Speaker 02

  It's not... I don't want to give that to Danny.

• 1:58:39Speaker 05

  All right, this is gonna be... This is gonna be fun.

• 1:58:41Speaker 02

  I feel like Danny beats me in most exhibition...

• 1:58:43Speaker 05

  Bullet game we haven't played in a while, though. This is a...

• 1:58:45Speaker 01

  White to move opens up in the middle.

• 1:58:47Speaker 02

  Oh, Kirokhan.

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  Takes here.

• 1:58:49Speaker 00

  This is unbelievable.

• 1:58:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, but this is Levy's. This is Levy's favorite stuff.

• 1:58:57Speaker 01

  And he captures a knight there.

• 1:58:58Speaker 02

  God.

• 1:59:01Speaker 02

  It's almost too fast. Okay, I don't remember what I'm supposed to do.

• 1:59:04Speaker 05

  It was 10 seconds.

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  Levy's lost the line.

• 1:59:08Speaker 05

  What do we got?

• 1:59:09Speaker 01

  Here we go.

• 1:59:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:59:11Speaker 05

  No, this is gonna be just a big ol'... A big ol' psycho chess game. We're leaning over the board.

• 1:59:20Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:59:24Speaker 05

  Looking to trade rooks, it seems like.

• 1:59:26Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:59:29Speaker 05

  Levy doesn't go for it.

• 1:59:31Speaker 02

  Levy wants more.

• 1:59:35Speaker 05

  Yep, there we go.

• 1:59:40Speaker 02

  Fucking flying all over the board here. I'm gonna come back. Oh, Danny, Danny starting the old man.

• 1:59:46Speaker 05

  Starting to unwind. This is the Russian technique endgame.

• 1:59:53Speaker 05

  Here we go.

• 1:59:55Speaker 02

  Oh my.

• 2:00:01Speaker 05

  Can I just trade you and win the king upon it? We're gonna find out.

• 2:00:15Speaker 02

  Oh my god, alright.

• 2:00:16Speaker 05

  Both kings are dead center of the board.

• 2:00:18Speaker 02

  A draw!

• 2:00:22Speaker 05

  That was a great game.

• 2:00:27Speaker 00

  Tell me, tell me, tell me.

• 2:00:28Speaker 02

  So online, like when we agreed to the draw because we were, you know, sportsmanship, we got sportsmanship, I had 15, he had 12 seconds.

• 2:00:34Speaker 05

  So he would have just moved and tried to flag you.

• 2:00:36Speaker 02

  And then at some point, because there's a progress rule in chess, you can't just shuffle around for 50 turns. If at 50 turns, nobody pushed the pawn or captured anything, it's an auto draw.

• 2:00:46Speaker 00

  And that's how you define progress?

• 2:00:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, so at some point, I would have tried to go for this. But the idea is that if he takes, I take this pawn.

• 2:00:54Speaker 00

  And then you have a run.

• 2:00:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, but then if he's here, then this is just stupid. I'm gonna end up losing.

• 2:00:59Speaker 00

  How many of these calculations are happening?

• 2:01:02Speaker 02

  A lot of it is, it's like pattern recognition, just because we've played something very similar, even if not exact before. So we're relying on intuition, right?

• 2:01:11Speaker 05

  This is where Levy goes, "Oh, I think I forgot what I was supposed to do."

• 2:01:14Speaker 02

  Actually, there was a really sick moment, where I saw a really crazy pattern Danny could have played. So when he went here and I took, Danny, you can play c5.

• 2:01:23Speaker 00

  Oh, amazing.

• 2:01:24Speaker 02

  Because this is, it's like I have no legal moves. So what do I, like, this would be a draw. It would be stalemate.

• 2:01:29Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:01:30Speaker 02

  Normally, I have no, but I have to push these pawns.

• 2:01:32Speaker 05

  So he's gonna lose.

• 2:01:32Speaker 02

  So I'm gonna end up giving. And then I'm gonna end up giving him and then here if he takes me on passant like cuz he can take me diagonally. He does this and now I have a legal move and now I'm gonna lose cuz my king's just trapped. So when I was like, holy shit, that might actually happen. I yeah, but like I saw that. I saw that in half a second. And maybe I had a solution.

• 2:01:51Speaker 05

  You could have played king B5.

• 2:01:52Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes. I have a way out, but I was like, oh, my God, what did I just do?

• 2:01:56Speaker 01

  Again, again, again.

• 2:01:58Speaker 05

  Let me wait, let me wait.

• 2:02:00Speaker 00

  Is this a different skill set, this quick game? Like, are there certain people who are built for this game?

• 2:02:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think the so the gap of the best players is still close, meaning like someone who's like 1200 can't beat Magnus, even if they're a very good bullet layer, right? You still have to be a top player.

• 2:02:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:02:18Speaker 05

  But there are people who are better at the faster time controls. And

• 2:02:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, me.

• 2:02:25Speaker 05

  And and a lot of them, like they they either play it more or, you know, they're just better on their feet. Magnus likes to say that the faster time controls challenge more of the sporting elements, which is like your nerves. Like your, your, you know, how you deal with being surprised, you know, being surprised, right? Emotions and things. So I think that the longer the time control, obviously, the higher quality of the moves. Some people say the lower the time control, especially if the chess is still good, like more of the sporting elements come out.

• 2:02:51Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 2:02:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I also would have played the game much better on my phone. I'm like so much more used to playing at the speed on my phone that here I'm like, I don't know what like I can't process what's happening, but on my phone, I'm like, oh, easy.

• 2:03:02Speaker 01

  You can also pre-move and things like that.

• 2:03:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, wow.

• 2:03:04Speaker 05

  So here we go. Ready, set.

• 2:03:06Speaker 02

  Oh, shit, what am I?

• 2:03:07Speaker 05

  Go ahead.

• 2:03:08Speaker 02

  Oh, Danny and I have have played this plenty.

• 2:03:12Speaker 05

  I am mouse slipping, which is where you.

• 2:03:21Speaker 05

  Not gonna happen, not gonna happen.

• 2:03:22Speaker 02

  Okay, all right.

• 2:03:24Speaker 01

  Okay. That was a nice little tempo there with the knight.

• 2:03:28Speaker 05

  Little double tempo, you're right. Okay, now this is gonna get really funky. What in the world are we doing here? Ah.

• 2:03:42Speaker 02

  Oh my god, Danny, how are you not just like lost?

• 2:03:44Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 2:03:45Speaker 02

  Immediately, like, what is this?

• 2:03:46Speaker 00

  I should have already lost this game, but I'm barely holding. No, you're surviving.

• 2:03:50Speaker 02

  That's good.

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  What?

• 2:03:54Speaker 00

  Look at this position.

• 2:03:55Speaker 02

  There is no fucking chance.

• 2:04:00Speaker 00

  Protects the knight, wow. Oh my goodness. Oh wow.

• 2:04:09Speaker 02

  I blundered.

• 2:04:19Speaker 02

  It's funny, in bullet, I'm like, barely touched moving the piece.

• 2:04:23Speaker 00

  Oh wow.

• 2:04:33Speaker 02

  Oh my god, Danny, what?

• 2:04:35Speaker 00

  What is this?

• 2:04:35Speaker 02

  You're falling apart.

• 2:04:36Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:04:41Speaker 02

  Queen.

• 2:04:42Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:04:57Speaker 00

  I can't move it.

• 2:05:00Speaker 00

  Oh my god.

• 2:05:03Speaker 02

  He got himself in trouble in the opening. 987 was cool though. I hit him with a really, like, when he brought his queen in.

• 2:05:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:11Speaker 02

  It was very scary for my king, but I had to think for like 3 seconds. If I take this pawn, our queens see each other, and then my rook guards my queen, and then my knight can take with check, and then like... So I had to think for, and then...

• 2:05:23Speaker 00

  This is almost too fast.

• 2:05:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:26Speaker 00

  Oh yeah.

• 2:05:26Speaker 02

  For mainstream.

• 2:05:28Speaker 00

  For the, and again, I'm your most casual consumer, so like, think of me as like the casual chess consumer. I'm blown away watching it, but I still need that... I need that like posthumous reflection on the game. I need you to show me like what move changed this? And how do you do it? Like, again, I'm just thinking of this, like, how do you get a casual to watch it? The speed is scintillating. Like, I can see watching this at a restaurant, why people would run over and what the fuck? How are they thinking this fast? How are they calculating these things?

• 2:05:58Speaker 01

  Even the endgame of a 10-minute game can get to this level of speed, right?

• 2:06:01Speaker 05

  No, you're right, though. Indeed, this is, this is almost too far.

• 2:06:04Speaker 00

  Can we, how much time do we have? Can we increase to two minutes? Not to like, keep throwing you at each other. I just want to find like, the time where you guys have enough time to think, and then we get to kind of consume.

• 2:06:16Speaker 02

  This sounds like the marketing agency. It's like the

• 2:06:19Speaker 05

  I'm all about this.

• 2:06:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is great.

• 2:06:21Speaker 02

  I thought you had stuff to do. I don't know where

• 2:06:23Speaker 05

  I got nowhere else to go.

• 2:06:24Speaker 00

  Charlemagne's on the way here. So, once he comes here, I gotta go to the other room. Do you need to switch any cams or anything like that? No, I brought my own. Just put them in there. And you put them in there, so we're ready to go? Alright, well, guys, this has been this is Gotham Chess, chess.com. Levy and Danny in the building. Thank you guys so much for being here. We got one more game. We're doing it right now.

• 2:06:42Speaker 05

  Let's do it.

• 2:06:43Speaker 00

  Let's set it up. You prefer to be black side?

• 2:06:45Speaker 05

  No, I just set it up because we were just kind of

• 2:06:47Speaker 00

  Is there a preference? Is there like an advantage to one?

• 2:06:49Speaker 05

  White is typically, white is better than, than black, like 56% of the time. But it's close to equal, but white usually wins just a little more than black, because you get the first move.

• 2:06:59Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 2:07:00Speaker 01

  So you can kind of set the tempo.

• 2:07:01Speaker 05

  And so white often is setting the tempo, choosing the structure, choosing the opening, and so

• 2:07:06Speaker 02

  That's also how I play. Like, I try, like, with white, I try to get what I want.

• 2:07:11Speaker 00

  Immediately.

• 2:07:11Speaker 02

  Fast, yeah.

• 2:07:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:07:12Speaker 00

  Okay, alright, so now we're at two minutes.

• 2:07:14Speaker 05

  We got, we got a little bit of time to think. Here we go.

• 2:07:16Speaker 02

  Alright. The Schultz focus group of how to get chess televised right here. I'm loving it.

• 2:07:23Speaker 02

  Alright, he's got, he's playing B3. This is like, gee, it's like non-standard, you know?

• 2:07:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is It's weird to develop your bishop and not your other pieces. But Danny's got very sophisticated, like, style of chess that he plays. And it's, it's actually kind of annoying.

• 2:07:41Speaker 05

  I was, I was raised by old Russians, so I've got like the old-school way that I play.

• 2:07:47Speaker 01

  And correct me, you can play quickly out of the opening? Because these lines are fairly memorized. But once you get into the middle and endgame?

• 2:07:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, it starts to get

• 2:07:56Speaker 01

  You gotta calculate.

• 2:07:56Speaker 05

  Starts to get a little messy at that point.

• 2:08:01Speaker 05

  The further the game goes, the more, the more original the...

• 2:08:05Speaker 00

  The moves are interesting, yeah.

• 2:08:09Speaker 02

  Even here, we could spend a little time on these decisions, but I don't know how much time.

• 2:08:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, cuz it's, it's a tricky...

• 2:08:18Speaker 05

  It's a tricky amount of... Okay, so we're both in weird positions now that we don't know.

• 2:08:24Speaker 02

  I'm just targeting his two pawns. He knows that and has to play something like...

• 2:08:28Speaker 00

  So this is where we need defending the rook. You need a, you need a layman like me that knows almost nothing, so I can be the audience. And then you need somebody that knows everything.

• 2:08:38Speaker 02

  I can commentate as I play.

• 2:08:40Speaker 05

  And then you need a light-up screen to show, "His queen can go here or here."

• 2:08:44Speaker 00

  That's why I said the GPS, like the different lines, yeah.

• 2:08:46Speaker 05

  Like the chess board that I have, when you put your finger on the, on the piece, the whole thing lights up.

• 2:08:52Speaker 02

  And then you need to know like, "Bet 365, official betting partner."

• 2:08:59Speaker 05

  Does no one have a sponsored glove?

• 2:09:01Speaker 02

  There's no, it's crazy in chess, there's no sponsor like primary watch sponsor, which is, which is by far the craziest.

• 2:09:07Speaker 05

  There should be like, primary glasses sponsor, like, you know? I won't even name the brand Levi wears cuz I know it, don't, you know? But it's, uh, but, yeah, I mean, you... A fingerless glove with the logo on it, like, an over-the-hand thing, you can see every move, it seems so obvious.

• 2:09:23Speaker 00

  Okay, so I'm gonna be asking you questions as you're doing it. What, can you, and you're not gonna divulge too much, right?

• 2:09:28Speaker 02

  No, I mean, I can, like, I'm like expand, you know, I'm expanding on this side of the board. You know, Danny's attacking my rook, I slide it up, he's, you know, he's doing this, so he activates his rook and gets it on this side. I'm up a lot on time, so I have to make a decision, like, am I gonna go for like a crazy attack? Am I gonna just, you know, suffocate his pieces?

• 2:09:48Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, I forgot that you were up a lot on time. Gee, you said that. See, you almost hung his rook, that would've been sick, but unfortunately... Not ideal for me. Shelves are trying to distract him.

• 2:09:57Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 2:10:00Speaker 00

  So that's a defensive move with the...

• 2:10:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm trying to like go over here.

• 2:10:03Speaker 05

  Defense his pawn.

• 2:10:06Speaker 02

  I'm trying to like make some progress. Oh my god, that's pretty annoying.

• 2:10:17Speaker 05

  What is happening? My knight is wandering.

• 2:10:22Speaker 01

  Put some in check.

• 2:10:22Speaker 05

  Wandering in the desert, it's not good. Yeah, his knight is way back here, it's just over.

• 2:10:28Speaker 01

  Completely undefended.

• 2:10:29Speaker 05

  He's just busted. Yeah, I'm gonna queen it.

• 2:10:33Speaker 02

  It's hard to like, I can't commentate and...

• 2:10:38Speaker 05

  And I resigned because I'm losing my rook to the new queen, and I'm just down a rook.

• 2:10:42Speaker 02

  But basically, the way I would have commentated is that like, I'm up a pawn, so that's like better. So I have to convert that now. Plus, you know, the whole time Danny was down about 10 seconds, which is huge.

• 2:10:51Speaker 05

  Huge.

• 2:10:52Speaker 02

  Now the game is, you know, and when you're live commentating with the headphones and the lights, like, you know, I try to be like, very basic of what's going on. The hardest challenge, I commentated chessboxing. You know Ludwig, the YouTuber? He did chessboxing like four years ago, and the board broke. So the 2D board broke. So I had to commentate a 3D view to a live arena of what's going on. And I would try to be like, hey, everybody, like, you see this pawn, like, that pawn's, you know, is blocking a couple of things. Oh, like, he moved the pawn, like, now black can do this. And people are, you don't fully get it, but you get just enough that like...

• 2:11:23Speaker 01

  But your intensity also translates.

• 2:11:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the most important. You need emotion, you need to understand, like, oh, he only has 10 seconds to react.

• 2:11:29Speaker 00

  But you also need a layman.

• 2:11:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, you do.

• 2:11:31Speaker 00

  You need someone to explain it to. Like, you're good at naturally understanding that, like, communicate to someone who doesn't know, but like... Yeah, it's like you need somebody like me who's almost unaware, so that the casual can come in and have it be explained. And the person who's like kind of mid-level knows all of it, but it's nice for a refresher. Like, when I'm watching football, like, I know they're gonna be running on second and two.

• 2:11:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:57Speaker 00

  But it's nice to be like, what are the options of that running play?

• 2:12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then even being able to draw on the board, like, circle pieces.

• 2:12:04Speaker 05

  And that's one of the reasons why, again, I think the digital screen has really helped bring that to life. You see it, but you're right. I think you really need a layman, even just to represent what most of the audience would want to ask and say.

• 2:12:15Speaker 00

  And like, and be excited about it. Like, there is kind of an interesting thing where you could get different people to kind of step into that position. They have to be aware enough of how the pieces move. Like, they probably need to know more than I know, but they need to know little enough about strategy, where you get to explain to them, and you're not explaining it to someone who knows this shit already. Because that becomes kind of redundant. Like, you explaining to Danny these things, it's like, yeah, we all know this kind of stuff.

• 2:12:40Speaker 06

  Alright guys, just some quick context for this game. I'm playing Levy from Gotham Chess. He is blindfolded. And, um, I'm absolutely doing this all by myself. I'm not getting any help from Danny, the guy who, uh, owns chess.com. And who's also a absolutely phenomenal chess player. Again, he is not helping me at all. I do not have an earpiece in where he is, you know, telling me the moves. This is, this is just me.

• 2:13:09Speaker 00

  I don't believe him.

• 2:13:10Speaker 01

  Okay, okay. Intros, let's get on.

• 2:13:13Speaker 00

  There we go, there we go, that's extra. Okay. Uh, what's up everybody? Welcome to Flagrant. And right now, we are sitting here with a blindfolded, kidnapped Levy from Gotham Chess. And, um, he has challenged me to a game of chess. Now, he is not the first professional athlete that, uh, has challenged me to, you know, something, assuming that I wouldn't be able to deliver on an absolutely immense task. And the last person that did it, um, lost in historic fashion. I just want to point that out.

• 2:13:48Speaker 02

  Thank you for calling me an athlete, by the way.

• 2:13:50Speaker 00

  This is a sport, dude.

• 2:13:51Speaker 02

  It is, but if you saw my stomach, you would not think, uh, it is a sport. I have, I, I'm the embodiment of, I can't do, so I teach.

• 2:13:59Speaker 00

  Ah, fair, fair, fair, fair, fair. Well, well, for my victory, you're going to be one of the greatest athletes that's ever played chess.

• 2:14:03Speaker 02

  Thank you, thank you.

• 2:14:04Speaker 00

  Um, okay, so let's make this happen. I guess, uh, I'm, I'm white, so I will start.

• 2:14:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, we gotta shake hands?

• 2:14:10Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, yes. Thank you so much, I appreciate it.

• 2:14:13Speaker 02

  Okay. Now, we have to unpause his clock, so we have to hit the middle button, and we have to make sure his time starts running.

• 2:14:19Speaker 01

  Alright, I will unpause the clock.

• 2:14:24Speaker 00

  Okay, so now, my turn.

• 2:14:26Speaker 01

  Yep. White to move.

• 2:14:31Speaker 02

  He's scared.

• 2:14:32Speaker 01

  Okay, Andrew.

• 2:14:33Speaker 00

  Big move!

• 2:14:34Speaker 01

  Pawn to e4.

• 2:14:35Speaker 00

  Big move!

• 2:14:36Speaker 01

  Have you seen this opening before?

• 2:14:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, so far, so good.

• 2:14:39Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:14:39Speaker 02

  I'm gonna go d5.

• 2:14:43Speaker 02

  Scandinavian.

• 2:14:44Speaker 00

  Oh, man, he's former Scandinavian.

• 2:14:46Speaker 02

  H5, your queen's gonna come all the way up to H5.

• 2:14:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:14:51Speaker 00

  Um.

• 2:14:52Speaker 01

  All right, Schultz.

• 2:14:54Speaker 02

  I think we got him.

• 2:14:56Speaker 01

  Schultz is thinking about this one. Okay, queen to h5.

• 2:15:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's trying to win in four moves. That's crazy. Pawn takes pawn.

• 2:15:05Speaker 00

  Pawn takes pawn!

• 2:15:06Speaker 01

  Okay. Pawn takes pawn. Black pawn to.

• 2:15:10Speaker 02

  E4.

• 2:15:10Speaker 01

  E4.

• 2:15:12Speaker 02

  Did you press the clock?

• 2:15:14Speaker 01

  I'm okay, that's.

• 2:15:15Speaker 02

  Flagrant insiders are. White bishop to c4, the white bishop on f1 up to c4.

• 2:15:24Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:15:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:15:29Speaker 01

  Okay, he plays white bishop to c4.

• 2:15:33Speaker 02

  Clock?

• 2:15:35Speaker 00

  Damn!

• 2:15:35Speaker 02

  My sensory is, you know.

• 2:15:36Speaker 00

  How do you know?

• 2:15:38Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 2:15:41Speaker 02

  This was a good valiant effort. I like it.

• 2:15:44Speaker 00

  What does that mean?

• 2:15:45Speaker 02

  I mean, I see the threat. I don't, I see it up here.

• 2:15:48Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:15:49Speaker 02

  Let's go pawn to g6, attacking his queen.

• 2:15:51Speaker 00

  Whoa!

• 2:15:52Speaker 01

  Pawn to g6, attacking queen.

• 2:15:57Speaker 02

  And what's your chess level?

• 2:15:59Speaker 01

  Like, 450, 500.

• 2:16:02Speaker 02

  500?

• 2:16:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, something like that.

• 2:16:03Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:16:03Speaker 01

  Schultz is eerily quiet on his own pod.

• 2:16:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Schultz plays queen to e2.

• 2:16:16Speaker 02

  Classy. All right, knight f6, let's develop.

• 2:16:19Speaker 00

  Oh, boy.

• 2:16:21Speaker 01

  Knight to.

• 2:16:22Speaker 02

  F6.

• 2:16:22Speaker 01

  F6.

• 2:16:24Speaker 02

  Okay, now you're gonna bring your knight out to c3.

• 2:16:26Speaker 00

  You're making a right move, right?

• 2:16:27Speaker 02

  On b1. He's at 500, I'm a little bit.

• 2:16:33Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:16:35Speaker 00

  Let's go.

• 2:16:36Speaker 01

  Schultz plays knight to c3.

• 2:16:40Speaker 02

  It's a good move.

• 2:16:43Speaker 02

  Um, queen d4. Like, right next to his bishop.

• 2:16:49Speaker 01

  Queen to d4.

• 2:16:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, right next, yeah. Dark square.

• 2:16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:53Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 2:16:55Speaker 02

  I mean, he knows the squares, that's crazy.

• 2:16:56Speaker 01

  Now you're gonna put a. Pawn to B3, pawn on B2 up to B3.

• 2:17:02Speaker 02

  I have been trained at this in the mines since I was 5, so.

• 2:17:06Speaker 01

  I guess that helps.

• 2:17:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I used to not see sunlight.

• 2:17:13Speaker 01

  Schulz plays pawn to B3.

• 2:17:16Speaker 02

  B.

• 2:17:17Speaker 01

  B is in B3.

• 2:17:18Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 2:17:20Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 2:17:24Speaker 02

  You know, you want to like play the best move or the most aggressive one to get him scared? Alright, let's go most aggressive. Bishop G4.

• 2:17:33Speaker 01

  Bishop to G4.

• 2:17:38Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 2:17:41Speaker 00

  Oh, Levy.

• 2:17:43Speaker 01

  Your pawn on F2 is going to go up to F3, blocking the bishop's attack to the queen.

• 2:17:50Speaker 00

  Oh, Levy, why are you doing?

• 2:17:51Speaker 01

  Schulz plays pawn to F3.

• 2:17:53Speaker 02

  Alright, pawn takes pawn.

• 2:17:56Speaker 01

  Knight takes pawn. Your knight on G1. Pawn takes pawn, so that's your e pawn.

• 2:18:01Speaker 02

  It's the only pawn that can take another one out.

• 2:18:03Speaker 01

  Okay, pawn takes pawn. Schulz plays knight to F3, taking the pawn.

• 2:18:08Speaker 02

  Okay, got it. I'll take the knight with my bishop.

• 2:18:12Speaker 01

  Schulz, okay.

• 2:18:13Speaker 02

  I'm going to press my clock.

• 2:18:17Speaker 02

  I'm going to lose on time.

• 2:18:18Speaker 01

  No, no, no. Takes knight.

• 2:18:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I took his knight.

• 2:18:22Speaker 01

  And Schulz takes back with the queen.

• 2:18:25Speaker 02

  You're, you're, you've got some...

• 2:18:28Speaker 00

  I'm pressing Levy, I'm pressing Levy!

• 2:18:30Speaker 02

  I've been waiting for you to do something stupid and it's not happening. Alright, knight C6, the other knight out to C6.

• 2:18:36Speaker 01

  Knight to C6.

• 2:18:38Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 2:18:41Speaker 02

  How much time do I have left?

• 2:18:42Speaker 01

  You have, you're at 8 minutes. Schulz has 74. C1 to B is in B2.

• 2:18:50Speaker 02

  You guys have a prediction market sponsor yet? Like, can we just, you can bet on this game now?

• 2:18:54Speaker 01

  Yes. Schulz plays bishop to B2.

• 2:19:00Speaker 02

  Schulz is annoying me. I wanted to win a lot faster. Let's go.

• 2:19:09Speaker 02

  Let's, let's, uh...

• 2:19:12Speaker 02

  Play bishop G7.

• 2:19:17Speaker 01

  Bishop G7.

• 2:19:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:22Speaker 02

  What the fuck is...

• 2:19:25Speaker 02

  It's most of chess is just sitting there going, "What the fuck is..."

• 2:19:28Speaker 05

  Long, which means you put your king on e1 to c1 and then it looks...

• 2:19:33Speaker 02

  For the audience at home, a door opened and I heard footsteps, so...

• 2:19:35Speaker 07

  The producer's in the room.

• 2:19:37Speaker 02

  I might be strangled soon. I have really no idea. I've been wearing the blindfold since I woke up this morning and got thrown in a car, so...

• 2:19:48Speaker 01

  So Schulz is at 7 minutes.

• 2:19:51Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:19:51Speaker 01

  Levie still at 7.

• 2:19:52Speaker 02

  Explains very well.

• 2:19:56Speaker 01

  I don't want to give you a hint, but I have some ideas.

• 2:19:59Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 2:19:59Speaker 00

  Give me something.

• 2:20:00Speaker 01

  I mean, you can castle.

• 2:20:01Speaker 00

  That's what I was thinking.

• 2:20:03Speaker 01

  I don't think a castle's a wrong move here.

• 2:20:07Speaker 02

  Castle which way?

• 2:20:08Speaker 05

  You move the king on e1 to c1, two squares.

• 2:20:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think a long castle.

• 2:20:13Speaker 05

  The hand goes over.

• 2:20:17Speaker 02

  Now...

• 2:20:18Speaker 01

  Schulz, ooh.

• 2:20:19Speaker 02

  Long castle. Did he do it correctly?

• 2:20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:22Speaker 02

  No, I'm serious. I'm not trying to like, king on c1, rook on d1.

• 2:20:26Speaker 01

  Rook is on d1.

• 2:20:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:20:29Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm gonna castle as well, short side. So, this left.

• 2:20:35Speaker 01

  So, castle short side.

• 2:20:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, king to g8, rook to f8.

• 2:20:41Speaker 02

  Alright, Andrew, I'm officially nervous.

• 2:20:44Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:20:44Speaker 02

  No, I'm officially nervous.

• 2:20:45Speaker 00

  Well, we're both there.

• 2:20:52Speaker 01

  Okay, Levie castled, short side.

• 2:20:54Speaker 05

  So now you're gonna play the knight on c3 up to d5. The knight on c3 is gonna go to d as a dog5, which is a discovered attack on the queen. The bishop on b2 attacks the queen after you do that.

• 2:21:17Speaker 00

  This might be...

• 2:21:18Speaker 01

  Schultz plays knight to d5.

• 2:21:20Speaker 00

  The dumbest thing, or...

• 2:21:22Speaker 02

  Knight to d5?

• 2:21:25Speaker 01

  Correct. D as in dog.

• 2:21:26Speaker 02

  Holy shit.

• 2:21:31Speaker 02

  Has men played chess before?

• 2:21:33Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 2:21:34Speaker 00

  That's what I said. I have played. I wouldn't say...

• 2:21:36Speaker 02

  Are you cheating?

• 2:21:37Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:21:38Speaker 01

  He's just out of bracket.

• 2:21:39Speaker 00

  I've played some of it.

• 2:21:39Speaker 02

  Can I check your ass?

• 2:21:42Speaker 02

  For legal reasons, that is a joke. That has been debunked and proven to be not serious. Wow. Alright. I kinda wanna go for glory here, but I also wanna play it safe. Alright, I think I'm gonna have to play it safe. I'm gonna go queen c5.

• 2:22:00Speaker 00

  Queen...

• 2:22:01Speaker 02

  C5. Like diagonally back one side to the right, one square.

• 2:22:05Speaker 01

  Queen c5.

• 2:22:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Pawn to d4. Damn. Pawn up two squares to d4. I'm impressed.

• 2:22:13Speaker 01

  He played a lot as a kid. I mean, New Yorkers just kinda know how to play chess.

• 2:22:16Speaker 02

  We're smarter than everybody. I thought maybe like fatherhood, busy schedule...

• 2:22:24Speaker 00

  We gotta get rid of this timer, dude.

• 2:22:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, the timer's gonna kill you.

• 2:22:27Speaker 02

  The only chance I have of winning at this point, frankly.

• 2:22:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, Schultz, you have five minutes. What do you got?

• 2:22:32Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 2:22:39Speaker 02

  Pawn to d4. Pawn to d as in dog. I played these yesterday, and I won in like seven moves. This is...

• 2:22:47Speaker 01

  I mean, you could. I mean, I don't wanna give too many hints.

• 2:22:50Speaker 02

  No more hints. No fucking... What are you crazy? I need hints.

• 2:22:53Speaker 01

  But that queen is a little pressure, I think.

• 2:22:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, take his hint. That wasn't a good hint. Take it.

• 2:23:05Speaker 02

  Has he lost some time yet?

• 2:23:06Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:23:07Speaker 01

  He's down two minutes.

• 2:23:12Speaker 02

  Like he has two minutes left?

• 2:23:13Speaker 01

  He's at 4:29 left.

• 2:23:15Speaker 02

  To d4. Pawn on d2, up to d4, attack.

• 2:23:19Speaker 05

  The queen.

• 2:23:23Speaker 01

  Schultz plays pawn to d4.

• 2:23:27Speaker 01

  I think that's good, though.

• 2:23:29Speaker 02

  It's not. He had better. But thank you.

• 2:23:35Speaker 01

  His finger's still on the piece, though, so he can take it back.

• 2:23:37Speaker 02

  No, he pressed the clock already.

• 2:23:40Speaker 02

  Queen d6. D.

• 2:23:43Speaker 01

  Queen.

• 2:23:44Speaker 02

  In front of his knight.

• 2:23:45Speaker 01

  Queen d6.

• 2:23:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:46Speaker 05

  So now rook on h1 over to e1. The far rook in the corner. Move it to the center.

• 2:23:51Speaker 01

  It's 6:20.

• 2:23:52Speaker 05

  Rook h1 to e1.

• 2:23:55Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:23:56Speaker 01

  Plays rook e1.

• 2:23:57Speaker 02

  Which one?

• 2:23:58Speaker 00

  H1 e1.

• 2:23:58Speaker 01

  The h1 to e1.

• 2:24:02Speaker 02

  Man. All right, knight takes knight.

• 2:24:05Speaker 05

  Knight takes knight.

• 2:24:10Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:24:11Speaker 01

  Bishop takes knight.

• 2:24:13Speaker 02

  Knight b4.

• 2:24:17Speaker 05

  Knight b4.

• 2:24:21Speaker 05

  Bishop takes pawn on b7. Your bishop on d5 takes the pawn on b7, attacking the rook.

• 2:24:36Speaker 02

  You see it?

• 2:24:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. I said, I don't know if Schultz sees it.

• 2:24:43Speaker 01

  Schultz plays rook to e7.

• 2:24:49Speaker 02

  He took my pawn?

• 2:24:50Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:24:54Speaker 02

  Queen takes rook?

• 2:24:55Speaker 01

  He played the wrong move.

• 2:24:56Speaker 02

  He played the wrong move when I said bishop takes.

• 2:24:58Speaker 00

  Just a fucking retarded move. Just an absolutely retarded move.

• 2:25:04Speaker 01

  Why did you do that?

• 2:25:05Speaker 00

  I don't know. I thought I saw something the second I did it. I was like, what the fuck was I thinking?

• 2:25:10Speaker 02

  That was, you want to take it back?

• 2:25:11Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:25:12Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:25:14Speaker 05

  Sorry, we're gonna keep playing. Play bishop takes b7. Bishop on d5 takes pawn on b7.

• 2:25:22Speaker 01

  Alright, Schultz plays bishop b7.

• 2:25:30Speaker 02

  Alright, let's play um

• 2:25:34Speaker 02

  rook, the one that's under attack to b8, rook a b8, targeting his bishop.

• 2:25:40Speaker 01

  Rook to b8.

• 2:25:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was gonna say, the game was like

• 2:25:47Speaker 02

  really stressing me out.

• 2:25:50Speaker 02

  But that rook move surprised me.

• 2:25:51Speaker 01

  Schultz plays pawn to a3.

• 2:25:55Speaker 02

  So you just like gave me a rook and you're just back to playing like all the best moves? Like that's what we're doing?

• 2:25:59Speaker 00

  I just played the dumbest fucking move I could imagine.

• 2:26:03Speaker 01

  He's under a thousand, you're gonna blunder sometimes, you know?

• 2:26:05Speaker 02

  I, I know, but he's like, okay, let's play um pawn to c5.

• 2:26:11Speaker 00

  I was playing really well too.

• 2:26:13Speaker 02

  You were.

• 2:26:13Speaker 00

  I was a little shaky in the beginning, but then I felt like I

• 2:26:17Speaker 02

  You were playing

• 2:26:18Speaker 01

  Pawn to c5.

• 2:26:19Speaker 02

  You were playing really well. That knight jump into the middle was really impressive.

• 2:26:23Speaker 01

  That was a ballsy move.

• 2:26:25Speaker 02

  It wasn't, I think it was just the best move. He just straight up, I was like, what? There's no way you played that move.

• 2:26:29Speaker 01

  He takes knight with the pawn.

• 2:26:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:26:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll take the, his light squared bishop with my uh rook.

• 2:26:39Speaker 00

  Light squared bishop.

• 2:26:40Speaker 02

  Take the pawn on c5 with the b pawn, b is in boy, take the pawn on c5.

• 2:26:45Speaker 01

  He takes the pawn at c5.

• 2:26:47Speaker 02

  With?

• 2:26:48Speaker 01

  With the

• 2:26:49Speaker 02

  Uh, b.

• 2:26:50Speaker 01

  B pawn? B4 pawn.

• 2:26:52Speaker 02

  Alright, let's play uh pawn to a5.

• 2:26:58Speaker 01

  Pawn to a5.

• 2:27:02Speaker 02

  Pawn to c6, move the pawn up, want to attack the rook, pawn to c6.

• 2:27:08Speaker 01

  Schultz plays pawn to c6.

• 2:27:14Speaker 02

  Let's go rook

• 2:27:18Speaker 02

  to b That's my move, b8, slide it back one square. To b8, yeah.

• 2:27:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:27:30Speaker 02

  It's not over.

• 2:27:32Speaker 00

  I thought it was over.

• 2:27:33Speaker 02

  No, it's.

• 2:27:34Speaker 00

  I thought it was over.

• 2:27:38Speaker 02

  It's only gonna get harder for me to see the board.

• 2:27:42Speaker 02

  Cause everything becomes non-standard, the pattern is.

• 2:27:44Speaker 00

  Ah.

• 2:27:47Speaker 02

  Remembering where every piece is, is not easy.

• 2:27:49Speaker 00

  You sort of forget he's doing this blindfold, eh?

• 2:27:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't forget. I have not forgotten.

• 2:27:54Speaker 00

  How many of these could you do?

• 2:27:55Speaker 02

  At the same time?

• 2:27:57Speaker 00

  At the same time?

• 2:27:57Speaker 02

  Timed, not probably three, but like if I, if it was quiet and I could just focus, probably five or six.

• 2:28:03Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:28:04Speaker 02

  But it would need to be quiet. I can't probably like talk and.

• 2:28:07Speaker 00

  Okay, I'm going, uh, king to B1.

• 2:28:11Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:28:11Speaker 00

  King to B1.

• 2:28:12Speaker 02

  Alright, pawn to A4.

• 2:28:15Speaker 00

  Pawn to A4.

• 2:28:19Speaker 02

  Pawn to D is a dog5. Pawn on D4 to D5.

• 2:28:25Speaker 00

  Pawn to D5.

• 2:28:34Speaker 00

  Bishop takes bishop.

• 2:28:36Speaker 02

  King takes bishop, king takes. Cross the board.

• 2:28:39Speaker 00

  Bishop takes bishop. King takes bishop.

• 2:28:43Speaker 02

  King takes bishop. I'll play, uh,

• 2:28:49Speaker 02

  Queen, E5 check.

• 2:28:53Speaker 00

  No. Queen, E5 check.

• 2:28:59Speaker 02

  See, like you don't quite remember, like, am I just losing the queen in one move? Like, cause all this shit is around it, but.

• 2:29:12Speaker 02

  King to C1.

• 2:29:17Speaker 02

  King to C is a, king to Charlie1.

• 2:29:21Speaker 00

  Schultz plays king to C1.

• 2:29:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:29Speaker 02

  How much time do we have?

• 2:29:30Speaker 00

  Don't worry about that time.

• 2:29:32Speaker 02

  You, you have three minutes and 40 seconds.

• 2:29:33Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:29:35Speaker 02

  Um.

• 2:29:40Speaker 02

  Schultz is like a minute, some change. Alright, let's go pawn to A3.

• 2:29:46Speaker 00

  Pawn to.

• 2:29:46Speaker 02

  Push it a3, pushing the pawn.

• 2:29:54Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:29:55Speaker 02

  Play queen to g3, queen to g3, try to offer a queen trade. Queen slide over one square to g3.

• 2:30:05Speaker 02

  She'll plays queen to g3.

• 2:30:09Speaker 00

  Let's just do a little trade.

• 2:30:11Speaker 02

  No, no, no, I don't want to.

• 2:30:12Speaker 00

  Do a little trade, give me a little trade, give me a little trade here. That's a fair trade, isn't it?

• 2:30:19Speaker 02

  It is, it is.

• 2:30:22Speaker 02

  Let's go queen b2 check.

• 2:30:26Speaker 00

  Queen to b2 check.

• 2:30:33Speaker 00

  Queen, you play king to d2. D2, yeah.

• 2:30:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:40Speaker 02

  No trades.

• 2:30:48Speaker 02

  Rook b4.

• 2:30:51Speaker 00

  That's the far rook on b.

• 2:30:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, b8 to b4.

• 2:30:56Speaker 00

  To b4.

• 2:31:02Speaker 00

  Alright, let's go.

• 2:31:06Speaker 00

  Go on pawn to c7.

• 2:31:10Speaker 02

  Excellent. Rook d4 check.

• 2:31:14Speaker 00

  Rook.

• 2:31:15Speaker 02

  Two squares to the left.

• 2:31:24Speaker 02

  Queen to d3, you gotta block with your queen and give up the queen on d3.

• 2:31:29Speaker 00

  Queen to d3.

• 2:31:31Speaker 02

  Queen to d3. Rook takes.

• 2:31:33Speaker 00

  Rook takes queen.

• 2:31:36Speaker 00

  King takes rook.

• 2:31:37Speaker 02

  Rook, sorry, yeah. How much time?

• 2:31:40Speaker 00

  You got plenty of time. I got 19 seconds.

• 2:31:44Speaker 02

  Queen back to e5.

• 2:31:47Speaker 00

  Queen.

• 2:31:48Speaker 02

  To the center, e5.

• 2:31:49Speaker 00

  To. Uh, yeah. Queen to e5.

• 2:31:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:01Speaker 00

  We're going to pawn to c4. Sholz plays pawn c4.

• 2:32:05Speaker 02

  This is a fucking mess. Queen takes c7 diagonally back two squares.

• 2:32:10Speaker 00

  Queen takes c7. Yep. And I'm gonna put your time now. Rook on d1 to a1. Okay, going rook to a1, okay?

• 2:32:20Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:32:21Speaker 00

  Rook to a1.

• 2:32:22Speaker 02

  Queen c5 up two squares.

• 2:32:26Speaker 00

  Queen c5.

• 2:32:30Speaker 02

  Andrew, just let me win. Jesus.

• 2:32:35Speaker 02

  What happened? Oh, you ran out of time?

• 2:32:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, should we just play it out?

• 2:32:40Speaker 02

  No, I mean, it'll probably take a few moves. I'm gonna play with my rook. He has king d3, h2, g2, d5, c4, b3, rook a1, right? And I have-

• 2:32:49Speaker 00

  You know every piece on the board?

• 2:32:52Speaker 02

  Yes, I will tell you actually what was by far the hardest. So, what I completely blanked is that my pawn is going down because early in the game, your pawn structure was like this from the beginning. And you went here, here, and then this went here. So I was like, wait, do you have an a pawn or not? Because I couldn't remember like what had happened. So I was actually freaking out a little bit because I didn't want to like take a ghost pawn and look through the-

• 2:33:17Speaker 00

  But what are the rules on that? Like, are you allowed to ask if there's a piece somewhere?

• 2:33:21Speaker 02

  Really, you really shouldn't.

• 2:33:23Speaker 00

  Awesome. You're supposed to shake his hand. Oh, yes.

• 2:33:26Speaker 02

  Yes, I was actually-

• 2:33:27Speaker 00

  Holy moly.

• 2:33:28Speaker 02

  There was a moment I was replaying the whole game in my head, which I can still do, like, it's not that hard. But like, I was like, wait a minute, is there a pawn there or not? And I just wanted to play it safe.

• 2:33:37Speaker 00

  What a fucking dumb move that I made.

• 2:33:39Speaker 02

  That was cra- I don't know why you did that. That was, you just forgot I could take the rook.

• 2:33:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know why you did that.

• 2:33:45Speaker 02

  Was that like you wanted me to look good and win?

• 2:33:47Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:33:48Speaker 02

  No?

• 2:33:50Speaker 02

  Like, damn, he's really struggling, like, maybe I-

• 2:33:52Speaker 00

  First of all, I didn't think you were struggling.

• 2:33:55Speaker 02

  At some point, I couldn't... Well, here's the thing. You played so well in the beginning.

• 2:34:01Speaker 00

  I thought my beginning was a little weak, and then I had a couple of moves that were decent.

• 2:34:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, the knight jump was good. I'll probably end up analyzing this, like, the game. But you could have, when you jumped in with the knight and I retreated, you could have started, like, capturing pieces in front of my king and...

• 2:34:12Speaker 00

  So you thought I was too defensive early on, or...?

• 2:34:16Speaker 02

  I mean, I straight up asked if you were cheating. I was like, "Is this a bit?" Like, it's something like, like, I... Because, you know, I went to University of Florida, and I played some kid. And in the middle of the game, after outplaying him, he starts, like, completely outplaying me.

• 2:34:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:34:29Speaker 02

  And then I win. And after he came up to me, he's like, "Yeah, you know, my friend was sitting in the audience. He, I had a vibrating stick in my shoe." And he was telling me moves, and then it broke. Oh, and then that's why... So these kids, like, straight up built a cheating device and put it in his sock.

• 2:34:43Speaker 01

  I mean, how would a vibrating, like, thing tell you?

• 2:34:46Speaker 02

  You'd just, like, Morse code it.

• 2:34:47Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:34:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, you could probably do a system.

• 2:34:49Speaker 01

  Two beeps is a pawn?

• 2:34:51Speaker 00

  Can I tell you something that's so embarrassing? I was cheating, and you still won.

• 2:34:58Speaker 02

  For real?

• 2:34:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had a little special help. Should we have him come in?

• 2:35:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, bring the help in.

• 2:35:04Speaker 00

  Should we bring the help in?

• 2:35:07Speaker 00

  Should we bring the help in? Bring the help in!

• 2:35:10Speaker 01

  It's almost more embarrassing now.

• 2:35:18Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. What? Dude, I'm so sorry, but not, I'm sorry but not sorry, because you fucking won anyway. Oh, my God.

• 2:35:25Speaker 00

  Well, so he said, what was the move?

• 2:35:28Speaker 02

  So I was right!

• 2:35:29Speaker 01

  You were right. You were right. You were right.

• 2:35:32Speaker 00

  So, so it's actually really interesting, because, like, sometimes you would be commentating on the moves. And he would be telling me the next move, and I just couldn't hear him. So I'd just kind of be, like, sitting there, hoping that he would say it again.

• 2:35:43Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:35:44Speaker 00

  And then...

• 2:35:44Speaker 02

  Oh, shit.

• 2:35:45Speaker 00

  So, so there was one where he goes, I think you said, you said bishop two...

• 2:35:48Speaker 02

  Bishop takes b7.

• 2:35:49Speaker 00

  And for some reason, I thought rook, I don't know, I was confused, and that's why I made that...

• 2:35:53Speaker 01

  You said putting pressure on the rook?

• 2:35:54Speaker 00

  Oh, no, you said putting pressure on the queen.

• 2:35:56Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, that, on that move, you said...

• 2:35:58Speaker 00

  Oh, shit, you're right.

• 2:35:59Speaker 02

  You said attacking the rook. Because I said bishop takes b7, attacking the rook, and then you heard rook takes c7.

• 2:36:04Speaker 00

  I don't know, I just heard rook and I played it, and the second I put it there, like, even I don't know shit about chess. I was like, "This is a aggressive move, guys."

• 2:36:13Speaker 00

  But you caught it, so...

• 2:36:15Speaker 02

  We've been bamboozled, so run amok, and absolutely...

• 2:36:18Speaker 05

  Really deceived. Levy, so I'm sitting there and so Lucy comes in.

• 2:36:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:23Speaker 05

  Because she doesn't know this was happening. So she sits next to me and I'm like, alright. Like, and she's like, oh my God, this is gonna be hilarious. You're gonna kill him. So I purposely played a slow opening to start because I wanted to accent. So Queen H5, all this stuff, right? Then we're just playing best engine moves.

• 2:36:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, N155, I was like, what the fuck?

• 2:36:38Speaker 05

  He's playing perfect chess and then, but you were playing all the best engine moves. Like Lucy's right there. I'm like, Levy's playing like fucking stockfish. He's playing every best move.

• 2:36:46Speaker 02

  D4 was stockfish? After Queen C5?

• 2:36:50Speaker 05

  Queen C5, no. So I was just trying to play like the second best move because I was confident we were gonna win.

• 2:36:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:55Speaker 05

  So at Bishop takes B7 is when I obviously let Andrew astray by saying attack the rook. He heard move the rook and then shit went crazy.

• 2:37:02Speaker 02

  Well, you lost your rook, right? Like, yeah.

• 2:37:05Speaker 05

  So obviously after N144, I think you were about to get in big trouble because Bishop takes B7, I'm gonna play A3 and your position's gonna start to crumble.

• 2:37:12Speaker 00

  It's so funny because I did it and then you go, do you want to take that back?

• 2:37:17Speaker 02

  I was like, what?

• 2:37:19Speaker 00

  It was almost like you're, it was almost like you're like, you're playing so well.

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