Why Michael Jackson was Taken Down & Untold Eminem Stories

YERRRR, the LEGEND Akon is sitting with us today. We're talking: - Stresses of having multiple wives - Working with Michael Jackson - Discovering Lady Gaga - Jimmy Iovine's genius - Missing out on Drake & Kendrick Lamar - Craziest gigs in the Middle East - Working with Eminem - Africa's potential and much, much more - INDULGE Timestamps: 0:00 Hide and seek with women 1:53 No rules in Akon City 3:08 Multiple wives, multiple responsibilities 8:36 What makes women happy + Not the nails ALEXX 10:38 Syncing up, separate homes + Equal treatment 12:43 Who's the best cook? Faces & Places 17:00 Working with Michael Jackson 27:39 Prince was a p1mp? 29:00 MJ knew rhythm, Try anything + Philanthropy 32:37 Afrobeat, Wizkid + Becoming global 38:49 Spotting trends + Building the Business 44:38 Business acumen, Ringtones + Lady Gaga 53:43 Only takes 1 + Jimmy Iovine genius 56:02 1st album in 30 days + Missing out on Drake & Kendrick 59:27 Infrastructure now 1:01:21 Craziest Middle East gig 1:07:45 The Lebanese are crazy! 1:12:03 Not touring in US, Senegal + Legacy 1:14:39 Working with Eminem + Smack That 1:21:40 How much a hit record can make 1:24:02 Co-ordinated hit on Michael Jackson 1:30:17 Upsetting the power balance + China in Africa 1:35:01 Politics = DANGEROUS, Black disunity + Racism 1:41:12 World Cup Final predictions This episode is sponsored by Kalshi. This episode is sponsored by Sesh. #akon #eminem #ladygaga Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Because you just got, you gotta constantly be alert.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  You know, especially if you live in the life. Like, if you live in that life.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  Bro, if you're not focused,

• 0:12Speaker 00

  you're gonna get outsmarted by every bitch you meet.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Oh, I get you.

• 0:16Speaker 00

  Because they smart, bro. What do you mean they're smart? You gotta play chess.

• 0:23Speaker 00

  You gotta play chess, bro. That's his chess.

• 0:27Speaker 00

  When they say, yo, the game is crazy, that's what they really mean. Like, it's really a game about, it's a mental game on who can outsmart and outdo who.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Wait, explain.

• 0:36Speaker 00

  It's hard to explain. Because they're coming to catch you.

• 0:40Speaker 01

  You're saying the, the...

• 0:41Speaker 00

  And you gotta, you gotta not get caught.

• 0:42Speaker 01

  Are the suitors.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  Huh?

• 0:44Speaker 01

  The suitors are coming to catch you.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, they're coming to get you. It's a game. It's about, it's about who can bag you.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:50Speaker 00

  And you gotta not get bagged.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  And then what is...

• 0:52Speaker 00

  It's like hide and seek.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  What is...

• 0:57Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying?

• 0:58Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 0:59Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying?

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Now, what is getting you, though? It's, it's not just fucking, right? It's like...

• 1:04Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no. It's not, I mean, to me, that's, that's like the last part. That's like the part that's like self-explanatory in the end, right? It's either, it's either gonna be the reward or the weapon.

• 1:17Speaker 00

  Fucking is either the reward or the weapon. It depends on how you approach your system.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  What do you mean by weapon?

• 1:23Speaker 00

  You don't know?

• 1:26Speaker 01

  I just wanna clarify.

• 1:27Speaker 00

  I just wanna clarify. Like, like, like, think about all the horror stories that you see online about a guy getting snagged, and next you know he's paying like a hundred thousand dollars a month on a chick he just met, don't even know who she is.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Got it. Okay, okay. She's weaponizing the sex.

• 1:43Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 1:45Speaker 00

  Or they just meet and get a divorce, and next you know he's going to court, giving her half, and he only known her for six months.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's gotta be illegal. What are the rules?

• 1:52Speaker 00

  It should be, but it's not.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  What are the rules on that in Akon City? What are, what are the rules gonna be?

• 1:59Speaker 00

  Oh, that, that, there won't be no rules in Akon City.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  There's no

• 2:09Speaker 00

  There's no rules, there's gonna be guidelines.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  That's it, okay.

• 2:12Mark Gagnon?

  How do I get dual citizenship?

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:15Mark Gagnon?

  When do we sign up?

• 2:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, you guys will naturally be citizens because I'm trying to make it towards a partnership within the United States. So if you're a US citizen, you're automatically a citizen. Like, I wanted to make it a territory in Senegal.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  Of the United States?

• 2:30Speaker 00

  Depending on how legislation is passed here though, because some of the things that's going on here from a law perspective is not really favorable.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Especially with immigration right now.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? So I need to make sure that some of that stuff actually works for visitors to be able to come in and out. But for the most part, I want it to be an open, like, I want it to be a unity city, like an entertainment unity city where everybody's all...

• 2:51Speaker 01

  We're gonna get...

• 2:52Mark Gagnon?

  Just donate him a plane, yo.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:55Mark Gagnon?

  Just donate him a gift, you can make anything happen.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Okay, so...

• 3:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, we'll all chip in to get him a plane. That he can use when he comes.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Exactly. We were on a very interesting subject, which is like women hunting you and...

• 3:11Speaker 00

  No, hunting us.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  Us.

• 3:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're in this together, guys.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  No, no, I'm... Listen, we're happily married, man.

• 3:17Speaker 00

  Me too! That's what I'm telling you!

• 3:19Speaker 01

  You got a unique marriage.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  No, it's not unique.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  You have a biblical one.

• 3:23Speaker 00

  It's not unique. It's just, it's just, it's just culture.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Explain this culture.

• 3:31Speaker 00

  Well...

• 3:31Mark Gagnon?

  Yo, look how excited he got to hunchback him about it.

• 3:34Speaker 00

  I'm watching how excited you are.

• 3:37Mark Gagnon?

  You're like, "You're lucky!"

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Now you gotta explain it, bro.

• 3:43Mark Gagnon?

  Tell me why, tell me why.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  No, no, tell me why is it, it is, um... Because, because obviously you think about like having multiple wives, right? And you're just like, "All right, multiple women, that's fire." But multiple wives, multiple responsibilities.

• 3:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  That's a very different thing than multiple women.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  So tell me why you want multiple wives, not just one wife and then multiple women?

• 4:07Speaker 00

  I mean, because it's the responsibilities as well, too. It makes your life a lot easier. Like so much easier cuz you gotta think like wives are like your best friends. They always got your back.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:19Speaker 00

  Like no matter what, they gonna hold you down, they gonna support, they gonna protect. So your your perimeter is already like, you know, occupied by your soldiers. Cuz they're not gonna let none come in that's gonna define effect or in any kind of way, you know, create a bad environment for you. You follow what I'm saying?

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah.

• 4:40Speaker 00

  Now, one wife.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Some shit could get in.

• 4:44Speaker 00

  It could slide in.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Just one line of defense, that's all you got.

• 4:50Speaker 00

  You only got one line of defense.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  You only got one line of defense.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  You ever have one bodyguard?

• 4:55Speaker 00

  And think about how many are coming at you. She can't stop them all. That's why, that's why there's always problems in the household.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  You know that's?

• 5:06Speaker 01

  So how many?

• 5:06Speaker 00

  She can't defend everybody like she like this.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, she gotta play zone.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  She start using her feet before you know it, her feet go like this and then somebody slip in, oh shit, divorce, god damn.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  So how many lines of defense you think are are really necessary for security of a man?

• 5:24Speaker 00

  It depends on the man.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 5:26Speaker 00

  Like I'm a very, I'm a very.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Like Alex, what about Alex? How many lines?

• 5:32Mark Gagnon?

  They trying to get me in trouble, bro.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  No, I'm just saying, you need lines of defense, bro.

• 5:36Speaker 00

  See Alex.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Chill out, bro.

• 5:38Speaker 00

  Rule number one.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  You about to get wife, look at them calming you down.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Seems good.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  See Alex.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  He's fragile.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  You're right, you're right.

• 5:55Mark Gagnon?

  Not again.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 5:56Speaker 00

  Alex is fragile.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'ma love her, I'ma love her.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  With Alex, we kinda all have to chip in and donate some courage over here to him. Because what happens is this, as a man, right?

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Khan, you don't know what you're doing right now.

• 6:10Speaker 00

  No, no, no, I'm trying to help you, Alex. And you gotta let me, you cannot stop me and allow me to.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:16Speaker 00

  I gotta empower you.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:18Speaker 00

  Because right now, she holds the power.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:20Speaker 00

  And it's obvious, it's very obvious, but it's okay.

• 6:22Mark Gagnon?

  You just made me.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  No, no, no. It's so obvious.

• 6:26Speaker 00

  But I understand, you understand the kind of person I am, Alex, right? I'm in a position where I'm the king of my household. It's very clear, like, the fist is so heavy that no one can lift it but me. It's like that hammer.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  Is there any one person, that's how your house has to be.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:42Speaker 00

  If your wife can lift that hammer, she's knocking you over the head with it.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Mm. Oh.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  Period. One thing about women, the more you give them, the more they take. There has to be a line where she know that you're the dominant rulemaker, the dominant voice, the dominant everything, and what you say is what goes, period.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's more of a.

• 7:00Speaker 00

  It's very clear, like.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  More of a democracy in my house.

• 7:02Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. But I say no, the household is a minority.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  It's a monarchy.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  The household is a minority.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  A monarchy.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  Democracy doesn't work in a household, because now your kids feel like they can make decisions too. No, you can't. There's a king, and there's a queen.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:17Speaker 00

  Period. And then there's the princess, whatever, the workers, whoever, but there has to be a top position and maker, like, he says what it is and everybody follows suit.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  And what is Alex in his household? Which position would you say he is?

• 7:33Speaker 00

  I have to hear more.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  So far, what do you think? Yeah, he says democratic.

• 7:38Speaker 00

  So far, it seems like the queen runs the house.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 7:40Speaker 00

  So far.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  From what I'm.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Wow. Damn.

• 7:43Mark Gagnon?

  Happy wife, happy life.

• 7:44Speaker 00

  That's the wrong.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  That's the problem. That's the problem right there.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  See, what's the problem?

• 7:51Speaker 00

  That's the problem.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Tell us, tell us, tell us.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Because women are never happy.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  You would never have a happy life because she's never gonna be happy.

• 8:02Speaker 00

  Women have to be, listen.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  Think about it.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  I can just imagine Acon's wife going, "Listen, if you get another wife, I'm not gonna be happy." And then he's just like, "When have you been happy?"

• 8:15Speaker 00

  I got nothing to lose here. No, that's the thing. That's the thing. I create happy environments. Because women have to be in a happy environment. It's not about necessarily making them happy specifically.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:27Speaker 00

  Because women are very, like, they're very, um, how do you say, indecisive. What you think makes them happy?

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:35Speaker 00

  Is not quite what makes them happy.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  What do you think makes them happy? Or what do we think makes them happy?

• 8:39Speaker 00

  What makes women happy is the happy environment. That's what makes them happy. Like, if you create a happy environment around them, they're gonna always be happy because the environment don't allow them to be depressed. It doesn't allow them to be sad. What they want, they provide. It's there. What they need, they don't have to look for.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  When it's, like, and when they're in a position where they feel safe?

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  That's the environment.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  What do you do when your women are not feeling happy? When your wives are not feeling?

• 9:04Speaker 00

  Then that means you're fucking up. That's issue, issue, issue.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  What, what happens when you're fucking up?

• 9:08Speaker 00

  I find out. What's, what I'm doing is fucking it up.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  And you ask them directly?

• 9:13Speaker 00

  Not all the time. Because... That might, that, that might, you might dig yourself in more water, hot water. You know what I always, you know when I always ask too many questions? The woman normally's the one asking the question. You wanna keep your mouth shut.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:27Speaker 00

  You shut the fuck up. That's, then, then you figure it out. As the king?

• 9:31Speaker 01

  I know that one. I do that one.

• 9:34Speaker 00

  She making us look bad. Let me, don't, don't talk.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  I know that one. I do that.

• 9:42Speaker 00

  You know, I'm trying to empower you, man. And I, I can tell your wife is a sweetheart, because that's why you don't wanna lose her.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. So she's a good one.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Better person than me. Absolutely.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  She paints his nails. No, she's, she's...

• 9:57Speaker 00

  Oh, hell no. Come on, god damn.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Come on.

• 10:01Speaker 00

  You told me you had your nails fixed. Okay, nah, nah. The tables has turned. All the tables have turned. This is the queen.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  No, no, no. His thing. His thing. Oh, hell no.

• 10:12Speaker 00

  I'm a creative. You work with creative. Did the kids do that? If your daughter did it, I'll get it. Because that's fine.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  No, kids is doing it.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  I'm gonna just say, "Yeah."

• 10:20Speaker 00

  I'm just saying, "Yeah."

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Come on, man. Nah, but I'm a creative. You know, we, we out here. We are eclectic. You know?

• 10:32Speaker 01

  You gotta use closer and creative.

• 10:33Speaker 00

  I'm worried for Alex right now. I'm still worried for Alex.

• 10:39Mark Gagnon?

  Wait, wait, wait. But what happens when they all sync up? That must be.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  That's good, that's good question.

• 10:44Mark Gagnon?

  A few days.

• 10:47Mark Gagnon?

  Yep, that's when you go on tour.

• 10:48Speaker 00

  Well, no, no, this is the thing.

• 10:51Mark Gagnon?

  Your tour happens to be the same week every month?

• 10:53Speaker 00

  I'm always on the road anyway. But when I am home, you know, everything is in separate silos. Like, everybody has their own universe. I think the worst mistake you can do is put all your women in one place. You never want to do that.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  So wait a minute, it's the same estate and different homes on the estate?

• 11:11Speaker 00

  Everyone has their own place and their own lifestyle and their own universe.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Their own place, meaning like?

• 11:18Speaker 00

  Like, own mansion.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  Okay, so they're 30 minutes away, they're 30 minutes away.

• 11:22Speaker 00

  However minutes away, they're just not in the same place.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  And then how do you decide when you go to them?

• 11:28Speaker 00

  I mean, that's all how your life is set up and how you manage yours, you know? Everybody's different.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  You know, like, depending on what's necessary, what's needed, but you want to make sure that everyone's treated equally, though. That's very important. Can't do one without doing for the other.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  How do you manage?

• 11:44Speaker 01

  You guys ask some questions.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  I can barely do that for one. How do you do an equal for all them?

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Because everybody needs, but sometimes one may need a little bit more attention than the other. Because, you know, emotions go up and down and.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Don't you get?

• 11:56Speaker 00

  Those things kind of be, you know, but I mean, think about it. Guys do that now with their jump offs.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:04Speaker 00

  They do it now.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  I mean, we don't know anything about that, man.

• 12:06Speaker 00

  I know, that's why you got quiet.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  That's a different type of lifestyle. How do you know what a jump off is? What's a jump off, my pals? Look at that jump off. See if you can get a definition for that.

• 12:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's not get in much trouble, let's jump off the subject.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  I'm a good man.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  All you guys are great men.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:28Speaker 00

  All of you guys are good.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Do you have different wives that you enjoy doing different things with? Like, oh, this is the wife I like to watch movies with?

• 12:34Speaker 00

  That's, that's another thing, you know, one woman would never be able to provide you everything.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Who cooks the best?

• 12:39Speaker 00

  They are great cooks.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Every single one of them? Or you just can't say it right now because it's gonna hurt something?

• 12:43Speaker 00

  A wife has to be a good cook.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but there's gotta be a best.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  I mean, everybody got different recipes that they cook better than the other.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Who cooks the best, Jolo? Ooh.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  My first wife, she's the best with that. She cooks the best African food, period.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Is she African?

• 12:57Speaker 00

  No, she's not actually.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Asian?

• 12:59Speaker 00

  No, she's from the Carolinas.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Oh wow. White girl, black girl?

• 13:02Speaker 00

  Black.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Do you have any different flavors than your wives?

• 13:06Speaker 00

  Well.

• 13:08Speaker 00

  Yo, this makes it sound so...

• 13:12Speaker 01

  This shit ain't Baskin Robbins, man.

• 13:15Speaker 00

  We would all be in trouble by the time we get out of here.

• 13:18Speaker 03

  I'm like Britney Spears.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  You talking like, is it a buffet?

• 13:23Speaker 01

  But no, are there some different flavors?

• 13:24Speaker 00

  Oh man. Yeah, I mean, in a situation like that, you would wanna, I guess you would...

• 13:30Speaker 01

  You want a little Epcot.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  You would definitely want an Epcot.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  You want a drink around the world.

• 13:35Speaker 00

  He's describing what he would want.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  I'm happy, bro. I'm happy, I'm happy. I need to jump over here, I need to jump over there. I'm a happy guy. I'm just saying, so with your lifestyle, where you got different mansions, you don't wanna have one mansion over here, one mansion over here, and it's the same thing?

• 13:54Speaker 00

  No, I mean, there's taste, there's taste, this is their universe, remember, like, it's creating a very happy environment for them. Like separately though, whatever makes them happy, that's what you...

• 14:06Speaker 01

  What about Christmas, do you, well, you don't celebrate Christmas?

• 14:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't celebrate holidays.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  No holidays?

• 14:11Mark Gagnon?

  Not really, very convenient.

• 14:12Speaker 00

  Very, very convenient.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Like that. What about New Year's Eve?

• 14:18Speaker 00

  New Year's Eve, I'm always working.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  You're on the road.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  I'm always being booked for those, like, that's another reason why I don't celebrate holidays, 'cause I'm never there, I'm always being booked on special days, special nights.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a big day, they're gonna have you do the ball.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a lot.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  And then birthdays, you make a special?

• 14:32Speaker 00

  Birthdays, I have to be reminded, I'm really bad with numbers and names. But faces and places, I'm like, photographic memory.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  How many wives you got?

• 14:43Speaker 00

  That's entertainment.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  That's entertainment?

• 14:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  What is, what is that? I have a great answer. I feel like you answered a different question.

• 14:51Speaker 03

  Nah, that's a great answer, that's fire, I'm gonna use that.

• 14:55Mark Gagnon?

  What does that mean?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  I don't even know what that means.

• 14:58Speaker 03

  Entertainment, if you don't even know, that means you're not entertainment, bro, that's what...

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Damn, I'm not entertainment, man.

• 15:02Speaker 00

  You're not right now, you're not.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  God, do you know how many ones are?

• 15:08Speaker 01

  That's entertainment.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Come on, man.

• 15:10Speaker 00

  Yo, see, that's what that does.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Tell me how to use that line.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  It makes y'all figure it out. It makes y'all think about it. It makes you research. It makes you just, that becomes a part of your entertainment.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  That'd be funny if you were really single, bro.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  That's entertainment.

• 15:28Speaker 00

  One day I might confess.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  Until then, it's entertainment.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Update, I'm gonna be out in L.A. shooting a movie this summer, but we added some stand-up shows. So pull on up, man. We're gonna be in Pasadena, California, at the Ice House, the 19th and 20th of June. Then the Ontario Improv will be there, the 26th and 27th. And then the Brea Improv will be there, July 17th and July 18th. And then we're gonna be at the Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, Great Outdoors Fest, August 8th. So you can go grab tickets to any of those shows, if tickets are still available. TheAndrewShultz.com, thank you guys so much. And Virginia Beach, you were fucking awesome. That was incredible. Love you guys, man. All right, Mark, what do you got?

• 16:17Speaker 03

  Oh, I have great news. I'm going all over at the end of the year. I'm going to Plano, Texas, Chandler, Arizona, Pasadena, California, San Diego, California. And then I'm also going to a couple other spots that are gonna be coming up at the end of the year, like Detroit, Michigan, and Salt Lake City, Utah. And I can't wait to see you guys all there. MarkYagunLive.com, Alex.

• 16:38Mark Gagnon?

  Guys, my monthly comedy show is back. Cancelled Comedy is on June 24th. We have a killer lineup. Get your tickets at cancelledcomedyx.com. And then my tennis series, theallloveclub.com. The tennis is on July 25th. I'll see you guys there. The first one was fantastic. Second one's gonna be even better. Peace.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  You have like the most interesting life, bro.

• 17:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Like, I was just doing like deep dive on you, man. Like, your life is absolutely crazy.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  Nah, it's amazing.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's amazing, but like, outside of entertainment, do you ever look back on it and you're like, yo, what the fuck happened over the last few decades? Like, what an insane journey I've been on.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that actually happens as I'm living it.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  So you're present in it? You're reflecting on it constantly?

• 17:25Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Cause like I think like for me, I didn't even know about the Michael Jackson stuff.

• 17:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, nah, that was my dog, man.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  This.

• 17:32Speaker 00

  Good dude.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  I literally found out about that doing research on you for it.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Like I've known about Lady Gaga, I've known about like your unbelievable success, you know, like. But the Mike, how do you get connected with Mike?

• 17:45Speaker 00

  Well, we actually shared the same attorney for years and I never knew. Like my attorney never told me. He just called me one day, like, hey, man, would you, would you, you know, would you do a record with Mike?

• 17:57Speaker 01

  So Mike reached out to you?

• 17:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, he told him to call me and see if I would be interested to work with him.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  What, what song did he love of yours?

• 18:06Speaker 00

  I end up, uh, um, co-executive producing the, the re-release, the re-release of, uh, what's his name? Um, uh, uh, Thriller with him.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Wow. Okay, so you were brought in as a producer?

• 18:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  As well?

• 18:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  And then what, he liked your work on it?

• 18:23Speaker 00

  No, he had already liked my work, that's why he had me come.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying, what did he listen to from you? Did you find out the song?

• 18:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I, I had already had a few records already created for Mike. If that day ever came.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  And it was interesting, cause when I did it, Hold My Hand was one of them. And that's the one song I played first.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Hold on, so you already had songs?

• 18:43Speaker 00

  I already set up for Mike.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Just in case, did you have any idea that you might meet with him? This is after the lawyer connection or before even the lawyer?

• 18:51Speaker 00

  This is way before.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  This is on your vision board?

• 18:53Speaker 00

  This is when I was locked up, yeah, this is my vision board, like, he was at the top of the list to achieve.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Get the fuck out of here.

• 18:58Speaker 00

  To work with Michael Jackson.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  So you're writing songs for Mike while you're in prison?

• 19:02Speaker 00

  Right.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Hoping that one day?

• 19:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  You'll be a massive superstar? And you'll get the opportunity to work with Michael Jackson?

• 19:10Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 19:11Speaker 03

  The crazy part, he said, I want it in 10 years, and then when did it happen?

• 19:14Speaker 00

  It happened in five years.

• 19:15Speaker 03

  Crazy.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Okay, hold on, so you go meet him? Do you meet him the first time or this is a correspondence or the?

• 19:22Speaker 00

  I flew out to Vegas to meet him.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Alright, so you fly to Vegas to meet him, you're in the studio with him?

• 19:26Speaker 00

  No, we met at his penthouse the first day I met him.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Okay, do you play the music there?

• 19:33Speaker 00

  Let me just tell you what happened.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  Give me the scoring, bro. This is insane. How many people can say they fucking went to him?

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Nah, straight up. So my attorney literally called and was like, yo, would you wanna work with Mike? I said, hell, yeah. He said, okay, cool. You know, I represent him. I said, bro, how long you been representing Mike? He said, for a long time. I said, you never told me? He said, well, you know, it's attorney-client privilege. I said, man, fuck that shit. All this time, you know how I felt to my Mike and you never told me? He said, well, I just waiting for the right opportunity, but I think now isn't the time. You know, do you mind me setting up a call with you guys? And I was like, hell, yeah.

• 20:06Mark Gagnon?

  Wait, one quick thing. Did you ask him about Mike's stuff? Since he knows.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  The allegations.

• 20:12Speaker 00

  Oh, that was all bullshit.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  See, that's all bullshit.

• 20:15Speaker 00

  When I met Mike.

• 20:16Mark Gagnon?

  Thank you.

• 20:17Speaker 00

  When I, like, spent time with him, I understood what was happening.

• 20:22Mark Gagnon?

  What you mean?

• 20:22Speaker 00

  I'll explain after.

• 20:23Mark Gagnon?

  Okay.

• 20:24Speaker 00

  So, no, but it was all bullshit. All, not only bullshit, but Mike had a lot of power, bro. And he owned a lot of.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Coordinated attack, you think?

• 20:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was, he was... See, Mike was just a smart-ass businessman. And he outsmarted a lot of the guys at the top.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  And they wanted to come for that.

• 20:41Speaker 00

  That was, that's exactly what was happening. They was coming for it.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Tell us, tell us the story and then explain that part of the Mike thing.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  So, so boom, he calls me and Mike's like, hey, Akon, how are you? I was like, get the fuck out of here. So I hung up the phone.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Didn't know.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  I hung up. Because I thought my attorney was just bullshitting, like, he was a jokester too, man. He was a jokester too. So then he calls back, he's like, Akon, I got, that's Mike on the phone, bro. Like, it's really Mike. I said.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Ain't no way.

• 21:10Speaker 00

  So I said, all right, Mike, is that you? Akon, it's really me. I said, forget it. Forget it.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  When he called the third time, that's when I knew, okay, he's not joking, it's really Mike. So I called, I picked up again, he's like, no, Akon, it's really me. I said, Mike, it's like, where are you? He said, I'm in Vegas. I said, oh, shit, so what we doing? We gonna work together or what? He said, yeah.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  You said that, too.

• 21:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, he said, no, seriously, I just wanna let you know that I'm such a fan and we have to get together. I'm working on Thrillery release and I want you to be a part of it. I said, well, shit, when? He said, what are you doing tomorrow? I said, well, what you need me to be doing? What you need me to be doing? He said, okay, cool, I'll set it up and I'll see you tomorrow. So next thing you know, they call me, hit me with a text, flight information. I get to the liner, we get on a jet, fly to Vegas. When I get there, his head security guard, Mohammed, picks me up. And now we're on our way to the win. So now I'm driving, I'm sitting myself, damn, I'm about to really fucking meet Michael Jackson.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  This is crazy.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  I'm kinda scared because I don't know how I'm gonna fucking react. Like, I don't wanna embarrass myself, but I'm like, nigga, this is Michael Jackson. Like, as a kid, like, this is all like, so...

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Are you worried about, like, what you're wearing?

• 22:26Speaker 00

  No, I'm not, I don't care about none of that shit. I'm more worried about how I'm gonna react, like, as a man.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Am I gonna cry in front of this guy?

• 22:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm like, I'm a man, bro, like, you know what I mean?

• 22:35Speaker 01

  But it's still, like, you wanna just hug him, you're gonna get nervous, you're gonna shake.

• 22:39Speaker 00

  Exactly. Now I'm checking myself, like, bro, just be easy and just pretend like you ain't excited. Like, you know, you know the shit that everybody tells yourself before you meet somebody that you admire?

• 22:49Speaker 01

  People faint from Mike.

• 22:50Speaker 00

  Right, and you see the photos, you see the videos, you're like, I know those people didn't plan on fainting.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  They got some shit you planned, it just happens, you just blackout, and next thing you know, like, what the fuck just happened, right? So I'm like, please, don't let that shit happen.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 00

  So now we go down, bro, that's when I realized, there's entrances and exits in fucking Vegas that you would never, ever know. No, bro, we get, I don't know if I can even be saying this online, I don't know if they want people to know this even exists, but fuck it, it exists. Bro, I'm riding, we get to this one road, and we go into this parking lot, and the fucking road lifts up like this.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Oh, shit.

• 23:32Speaker 00

  And we drive in it and it closes back down.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 23:35Speaker 00

  Next thing you know, I'm at the fucking underground parking lot of a private place where it's nothing but just parking and one elevator. We get in the elevator, that shit takes me all the way to the top.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Directly to the?

• 23:47Speaker 00

  Straight up.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:49Speaker 00

  I get to the top and there's this long ass hallway with no doors, just, it's a door at the very end.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Get the fuck out of here.

• 23:57Speaker 00

  Bro, that whole shit felt like it was choreographed, right?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like Men in Black.

• 24:00Speaker 00

  This is when I realized, okay, Mike choreographs everything. Like, nothing is by chance. We get all the way to the end of the door. Five steps before I get there, the doors just start opening up.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 24:12Speaker 00

  My nigga.

• 24:15Speaker 00

  I walk in, Mike is sitting in the middle of the floor, in a chair, back turped, and the chair just starts turning.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  You're lying, bro, you're lying.

• 24:23Speaker 00

  No, fuck you, bro.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  You're lying.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  You're lying, bro.

• 24:28Speaker 00

  At this point, the door is turning, the door is turning. Yo, listen, like how your chair is turning, this shit moving slow. And while it's moving, I'm like, okay, the moment I see his face, what the fuck am I gonna do? Soon as shit make the full 360 turn, or 180, he looks, and I look, I was like, oh shit. I froze for a second, and as I was freezing, the freeze automatically broke, cause Mike just stood up. Yo, wait, God, what's up? And I'm like, oh my God, what's up?

• 24:59Speaker 00

  Yo, we embracing, it felt like we known each other forever.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  No way.

• 25:03Speaker 00

  Like, literally felt like we known each other forever, bro.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  That is crazy. Did he have another voice?

• 25:09Speaker 00

  He did. He did have another voice. It was deeper than the one he's normally using.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  But it's not that deep.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  But it's not that deep, right?

• 25:16Speaker 01

  But it's just a little bit.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  But, you know, people will exaggerate, like, yeah, the more...

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Nah, nah, nah.

• 25:20Speaker 00

  But it's definitely deeper than that one, for sure. But it's like, it was like, it was like instinct, he just knew when to turn it on and turn it off.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Right. And like, would he talk shit, would he bust balls a little bit, was he a...

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Oh, no, he was funny, like, Mike was funny. And he, like, we would have real conversations, like, real conversations, like, I'm like, yo, Mike, what kinda girls you like?

• 25:40Speaker 01

  What was he saying?

• 25:41Speaker 00

  He like, I still...

• 25:45Speaker 00

  I was like, what you like, Mike? Like, do you like fat asses?

• 25:51Speaker 00

  You know, I'm gonna ask you, like, Mike, do you like fat asses? You know what I'm saying? Like, what's up?

• 25:55Speaker 01

  He was like, that's entertainment.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  I'm too big, I like a little, just palm size. I'm like, what, palm size? You know, like, we would always joke, we would always joke like that.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Was Mike getting after it with the hoes or what?

• 26:10Speaker 00

  Oh, Mike had bitches.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Really?

• 26:11Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  And then none of them would talk?

• 26:14Speaker 00

  Hell, no.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Cause these girls talk like crazy now.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  Nah, his system's set up. Mike had a system. But by the time I met him, he was older.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:22Speaker 00

  More mature.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:24Speaker 00

  But he told me some fun, fun times when he had, when he was growing up.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 26:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 26:29Mark Gagnon?

  I always thought he just was like asexual.

• 26:32Speaker 00

  No, no, no. He was very heterosexual.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 26:34Mark Gagnon?

  Wow.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. He's very heterosexual.

• 26:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  How heterosexual do you think Alex is?

• 26:41Speaker 00

  I don't know, man.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Mike had the high waters, the tight.

• 26:47Speaker 00

  No, Mike, Mike, Mike, honestly.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  The glitter, glitter?

• 26:50Speaker 00

  I think if Mike wasn't.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Glitter?

• 26:53Speaker 00

  No, no, hold on. I think if Mike, if Mike didn't live that life to where he was, he had to been like a celebrity his whole childhood.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:02Speaker 00

  Mike probably would have been a pimp.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  No way.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was, he was that finessing, like, he.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Really?

• 27:08Speaker 00

  He probably would, no, bitches loved Mike, bro.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, of course.

• 27:11Speaker 00

  That's what I'm saying, like.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, but because he was a celebrity.

• 27:14Speaker 00

  I'm just saying, like, Mike, before even a celebrity, like, bitches thought he was handsome as shit.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Mm.

• 27:20Mark Gagnon?

  And he had a charm, he had like.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, think about it, like, celebrity will take you so far, right?

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Mm.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  But there's some people out there that's not celebrities that got bad bitches.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, that's true.

• 27:31Speaker 00

  Cause they just got a certain level of how they move and how, you know, they got a certain aura that comes with them.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:36Speaker 00

  Mike just had that aura that was just magnetic to women, you know what I'm saying?

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Really?

• 27:40Speaker 00

  Like Prince had the same thing.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you always heard about it with Prince, for sure.

• 27:43Speaker 00

  You know, and what happened? Prince became what? A pimp.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 27:50Speaker 00

  I, I know, Prince wasn't a, like.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  He was, he was.

• 27:53Speaker 00

  Out there pimp, but he was a pimp.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  But he had girls.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  No, he was a pimp. Prince was a pimp.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  He was, he was very heterosexual.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  That nigga was a pimp.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  And he painted his nails.

• 28:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, nigga.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  I just, come on, I just.

• 28:03Speaker 00

  Bro, don't look for.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, I'm just saying, that's a very heterosexual thing to do.

• 28:07Speaker 00

  It's not.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Prince? Prince had more bitches than Mike.

• 28:12Speaker 00

  I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  I wouldn't say that.

• 28:17Speaker 00

  I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that. See Prince, Prince, that was a part of his image. Like he'd walk in, he have some bitches walking with him. His band was all hoes, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm sorry ladies, but I'm just, you know, just figure of speech, but it was all bad. Sad bitch, but my point is entertainment, but my point is, is a part of his aesthetic.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 28:40Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying?

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Well, Mike, Mike was true to the game.

• 28:42Speaker 00

  When Mike was, everything was quiet, silence, mysterious, a mystery, like you never really knew how he moved, who he moved with, you know what I mean? But he's very calculated.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  So then you guys meet up, do you immediately get to work? Is he like, hey, let's look at some like samples, let's look at beats? Or is it like you guys just hang?

• 29:00Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, we just hang, we just hang, we talk, and then we just create. And what do you think of this? I love that, I'll add this, what do you think about this? And like, it was like, we just kinda just back, you know, kinda was like sparring partners in the studio. Yeah, and he'll go in there and beatbox something, then I'll make the actual beat to it, like it was, it was really dope.

• 29:16Mark Gagnon?

  And he had a recording studio in the penthouse?

• 29:19Speaker 00

  No, actually, we went to the Palm to record.

• 29:22Mark Gagnon?

  Okay.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  The Palm had a dope ass studio, and he blocked it out and we switched and recorded.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Wow. And how was he musically in terms of like production?

• 29:29Speaker 00

  Oh, well.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Did he really understand?

• 29:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, he understood music, but he was, he more, he more was a, I thought I turned this on, he was, he's more of a, he understood rhythm.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Right. What's the difference between those two?

• 29:42Speaker 00

  Well, music and rhythm is two different things, right? So, let's say from a perspective, they don't know rhythm.

• 29:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, define rhythm.

• 29:55Speaker 00

  Music is more from, like, like the way that, well, Mike wasn't like a musician, so he couldn't really play instruments.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Music is like composition, like putting together the different parts.

• 30:07Speaker 00

  It's more organized, noted, written down, whatever the case, whereas rhythm is just a feeling that, that just rocks with you, and it's locked in on a tempo.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  You follow what I'm saying? So, Mike was that, like, no matter what you did, there had to be a certain pocket that he needed it in.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  And did he have instincts for what a song needs?

• 30:24Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  So like, he knows what a song needs without being able to necessarily play it?

• 30:28Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  Was it difficult for you to give pushback if he did something musically and you were like, "I actually don't think that's it"?

• 30:37Speaker 00

  No, that's what made me and him work so well together because we would try anything to see what it sounds like first. Like, sometimes people have a habit of saying, "No, I don't think that's gonna work, but you didn't do it yet. How would you know"?

• 30:47Speaker 01

  But who's saying that to Michael Jackson? Like, if...

• 30:49Speaker 00

  No, you'd be surprised. There'd be people that do that.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Really?

• 30:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. But Mike was the... Like, man, he was so... Now I realize why he was so big as he was. Because he was like, he was that open-minded to it. I would ask him to... I could have asked him to bark on the record, and he would've did it, just to see what it sounded like.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  What would his bark sound like?

• 31:07Speaker 00

  I don't know. That'd be interesting to find out.

• 31:10Speaker 03

  It's entertainment.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  It's entertainment.

• 31:17Speaker 00

  Like a poodle?

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Damn, man. Mike, how many people can say that?

• 31:25Speaker 00

  He was a legend, bro.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Alright, so you leave that session, and you're like, "Did I just accomplish everything that I ever dreamed of"?

• 31:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, like...

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Because you're already an incredibly accomplished artist at this time of touring.

• 31:33Speaker 00

  At that point, I felt like, yeah, I've hit the ceiling.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  You checked off every box?

• 31:36Speaker 00

  I checked off every box.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  Like, is there an actual feeling as you leave the hotel, or as you leave the session?

• 31:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was that feeling. Like, damn, what do I do from here?

• 31:43Speaker 01

  What do I do from here?

• 31:44Speaker 00

  That's exactly what it was. It was like, what do I do literally from here?

• 31:48Speaker 01

  And then what did you... What did you think? What'd you do? Did you, like, dream up new dreams? Did you have to, like, sit and reflect on it?

• 31:54Speaker 00

  Well, actually, I didn't reflect on it. I just kept going to see where life take me.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  But then I found out, that's when I got actually more, um, active in going to Africa with my philanthropy.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:04Speaker 00

  The Lightning Projects and all this other stuff. Because even me and Mike was talking about creating a, like, a music university.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Out there?

• 32:11Speaker 00

  Out there in Africa. Like, almost like, you know, like a Berklee-type-of-style university but for Africa. Because you have the arts, you have... I mean, when you look at rhythm, arts, instruments, all of that shit's come from Africa. We wanted to kind of reinvent the whole wheel, bring it in for history, and also create how we develop that instrumentation and culture for the future. Like, really a musical university that would take Africa into the future.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  That'd be kind of wild.

• 32:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Is it... Is it... Is it... Interesting for you, exciting for you to see how much African music is being embraced in the mainstream.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, I mean, interestingly enough, in the beginning, it felt tough, though. Because that was why I actually stopped doing music after I released my album in 2008. I promoted for about two years, I did the World Cup in South Africa, and then I stayed in Africa and went straight to Nigeria and started developing what you know now is to be Afrobeat. But it really was, Afrobeat was more of a political movement started by an artist named Fela. And he was really big and very influential in Nigeria. He was like, he was like the rebel.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  This Fela Kuti.

• 33:22Speaker 00

  Yes. He was like a rebel, but he would speak the people's words through his music. And he would always combat the government on what they ain't doing, what they should be doing. And it became one of those kind of things, so it was more.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Bob Marley-esque figure in terms of his influence?

• 33:37Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Wow, okay.

• 33:39Speaker 00

  He's a good analogy. So when we went up there, that music was well-respected, but wasn't commercialized. And then that's when we came and kind of brought more of a pop feel to it and gave it a more rhythmic type of, you know, allow us to where people outside of Africa can actually relate to it if you wasn't quite understanding what was being said.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Wait, when is this?

• 34:01Speaker 00

  This started from 2008 to recent, bro. Wizkid was my first artist that I signed.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  Wow, Incon.

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:09Speaker 03

  The lore is crazy.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Your life is unbelievable.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  No, it's crazy.

• 34:13Speaker 03

  Like, Wizkid was how old when you met him?

• 34:14Speaker 00

  He was 13.

• 34:15Speaker 03

  Crazy.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  And what are you seeing in this kid?

• 34:18Speaker 00

  Oh, he was a star. Like, he was a star.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  But at 13, like, musically, he was a star?

• 34:24Speaker 00

  Man, like, when he walked into the room, you just knew, okay, this kid is gonna be, he's something big. And he was, he had an amazing voice, he was also writing his own little songs at that time. You know, he was managed and ran by a guy named Banky W at the time, who, that's who I partnered up with to sign with.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  So you're in there, you see some talent, you also see potential for this genre of music internationally.

• 34:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  What makes you think, like, what, I mean, because I imagine as a young kid, growing up in the States, being African, right? There wasn't the same, like, embracing and love and like, you're in need to connect with your roots.

• 35:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  Like, I'm 42, so I remember there was like a distinct separation even, like, maybe, maybe I would even go so far as to say like,

• 35:11Speaker 00

  No, no, like, everybody hit the fact that they was African. Like, literally, people was embarrassed to be African, you know what I mean? I would like, I was probably the only one pushing it, yeah. All they was giving clown, it was like African jokes, it was like, like, if you had, if you was being joned on, the African jokes was the most popular, put it that way.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 35:30Speaker 00

  So nobody wanted to be African.

• 35:32Mark Gagnon?

  I apologize for my past.

• 35:37Speaker 00

  You know what I mean?

• 35:39Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's interesting. So you grew up in this time, and now you're seeing massive artists from the region and like,

• 35:47Speaker 00

  Doing well locally, and I'm like, yo, this would be, this is crazy, how like, they don't know about this.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  But what gives you the feeling that it would be successful when you grew up in a place where there was this separation?

• 36:00Speaker 00

  Well, because I knew that Africa was heavily popular, but I knew it just wasn't exposed in America to even get the chance to become popular.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Mm, got it.

• 36:07Speaker 00

  Right, so I just knew that there's certain elements in it that I knew that made it too local on why it would never leave and become bigger than the continent.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  And this is like sonic elements?

• 36:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is sonic elements. I'm knowing what the US want to hear, I'm knowing what Europe want to hear.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  This is like taking Chinese food from China and turning it into a version of it where Western people will consume. Got it, okay.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  So perfect, that's the perfect way to explain it.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  And, and this is just because, like, your father was a musician, if I'm not mistaken, so like, you grew up classically trained in music.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  So like, you can, you can consume this from this culture that you understand and it is a part of your identity, but also recognize the limitations in the music for like Western audiences to go.

• 36:48Speaker 00

  And how much not to take out to keep it authentic as well.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  They also need to still like it.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  Yes, they have to love it.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it can't feel too commercialized where they start going, no, that's not the real thing.

• 36:58Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 37:00Speaker 00

  That was a challenge. That was a challenge.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  So, so you're saying Afrobeat doesn't really exist in its modern iteration before you go there?

• 37:10Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 37:11Speaker 03

  Whoa, dude. Did you connect with Burna Boy around this time?

• 37:16Speaker 00

  Well, Burna, he was, he was young at that time, too. He was, he was.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Cause we're talking 2008.

• 37:23Speaker 00

  Like, he was probably trying or thinking about being an artist at that time. But he wasn't at that level, nowhere near it.

• 37:28Speaker 03

  Wow. And at what point do you go, oh, Afrobeat is out of here? Like, this sound is now global. Is there a moment?

• 37:33Speaker 00

  When Wizkid actually popped, that's when I realized, okay, we got him. Cause it took a while. And when I came to the US and I was shopping Wiz, they thought it was reggae.

• 37:44Speaker 00

  And they're like, well, reggae's not really popping right now. I'm like, it's not reggae.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:47Mark Gagnon?

  And it was bigger in Europe before it came to the States.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  That's what made me, that's what made me go to London. Then when I went to London, it broke in London, because London was more open-minded.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Well, also, there's a huge African community there.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  So London was where it actually broke. And we was able to break P Square first, which was a twin group, two twins, right? And they, we had a record called Chop My Money that went fucking ridiculous, ended up charting in the US charts.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 38:12Speaker 00

  But it charted in the UK charts first. You know what I mean? But at that time, those guys were like, they were performers. Imagine if you had two ushers. And they were twins. That's what they were, but in the Afrobeat market.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Like, when you see their performance, it was, it was nuts. That's how they actually got them. And then while that's happening, Wizkid is more authentic at that time for what we were trying to portray. Whereas P Square were more commercial. So P Square came, what, actually opened the door for Wiz to bust through the door with the authenticity of what they recognized in P Square. And then they just.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  At this point.

• 38:49Speaker 00

  It was over.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  At this point in your career, can you kind of like see, do you know when the trend is gonna pop?

• 38:56Speaker 00

  I don't know when it's gonna pop, but I know what will pop.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  Right, so it's like, but is there a moment where you see something building momentum? And you're like, yeah, this is out of here. In a year, this is out of here.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's exactly how I see it.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  And this is what you saw with?

• 39:09Speaker 00

  With that, that's what I saw with that.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Interesting, and at that point, from a business perspective, are you starting to build up an apparatus around it?

• 39:19Speaker 00

  100%, but what I realized was there was no business or apparatus to build around African music. Because they didn't understand the business well enough to know what that was.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  And why is that? Is there?

• 39:30Speaker 00

  There was no, there was no music industry structure in Africa. Everything was black market, sold in the back market. Like, there was no, even, there was no record stores. There was, you would have to go to the actual market and buy albums that was duplicated in CD duplicators.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Because the music industry didn't see the value in Africa.

• 39:50Speaker 00

  Exactly, so in Africa, the motto was you would sell the master to somebody. And then they, like, like prime example, with Wiz's album before then, they would make an album.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 40:00Speaker 00

  And then sell it to someone, sell the master to them for like 100 grand.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  And then?

• 40:06Speaker 00

  And then done. Then, then now they just make money off shows. And who owns the master now? He monetizes that through all the black markets throughout Nigeria. And then later, does a deal in the US with iTunes, Apple, or whoever. And then he owns the master now to it.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Got it, so just so understanding here. You make your album, you sell it to somebody. It might be somebody in the business, it might be somebody outside of the business. They own the rights to it in perpetuity.

• 40:32Speaker 00

  Right.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  You go tour with your songs.

• 40:34Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  And then they literally print

• 40:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  CDs or whatever it is.

• 40:38Speaker 00

  Right, yeah.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  And then sell them in different black markets around.

• 40:42Speaker 03

  You can see how someone might never break out, but be locally super hot.

• 40:45Speaker 00

  Exactly, and that's why it was like that. Because of that motto. So when we came, we twisted it up. We actually taught them the business.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 40:53Speaker 00

  Yes. This, you make publishing off this, you make royalty off of this, this is distribution cost, this goes to the label, this goes to the artist. Now they understood it and it was able to now understand it because now you can actually negotiate with labels in Europe and France and the UK and you know.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  You're putting artists on game to this? You're putting the industry folks on game to this? What is the?

• 41:11Speaker 00

  The industry folks didn't like the fact that we're putting them on game.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Fuck no.

• 41:14Speaker 03

  Right, because they're like, yo, we're getting a deal off this. We're getting a hundred grand and...

• 41:17Speaker 00

  I mean, it was getting mass free, basically.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Right. It was basically like, hey, we'll pay for the production of all this stuff.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  And interesting enough, in India was the same way. Because India had the same motto.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  I've realized something recently. Sleep is everything. I hate to be one of these guys. I genuinely hate it. Because I like to stay up late and I have to wake up early because I have kids. The reality of the matter is, sleep dictates everything, especially at my age. When you're like 20 years old, I don't even know if sleep is necessary, to be honest with you. And then you hit 40 and it's like, if you don't sleep, there's just no way that you can be a functional human being. I didn't take it seriously until I switched to Brooklyn Bedding. Let me tell you about Brooklyn Bedding. This mattress is different. I'm not just crashing anymore, I'm actually recovering. If you want to wake up feeling aligned, rested, like your body actually reset overnight,

• 42:08Speaker 01

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• 42:50Speaker 01

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• 45:08Speaker 01

  Where does this business acumen come from? Because like even you started your label early. As soon as you started music, you were thinking of your own.

• 45:15Speaker 00

  Because I always, because we know, you gotta think, like, my dad was a jazz musician.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:18Speaker 00

  And jazz.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Drummer?

• 45:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's a drummer.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's a drummer percussionist. Um, the problem with jazz is that that's a passion project.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  Jazz doesn't really make money. You gotta really just love music to do jazz. And if you're making it money off of it, that's fine, but you don't really care if you make money or not. You know, you hit small bars, little spots and things like that. So my pops was like, I don't know if music is what you want to do for a living. You know what I mean?

• 45:44Speaker 01

  But you loved it as a kid.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  I don't know if that's what I want to do either, right? But I loved it as a kid. But I was like, there's gotta be money, cause somebody's making money.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  Like, literally, somebody's making money. And I used to always think about that, but then I used to always hear how artists just cry about them not getting paid enough. And they got robbed, this and that, and I was like, I want to be the one to do that. That'd be amazing.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  How do I be the guy?

• 46:08Speaker 00

  But somebody's making it, so let me find out how they're making it.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  Smart, how to find out.

• 46:12Speaker 00

  I started reading books about the music business. See, back then, they had books that would tell you how the music business worked. There was, there's, there's a book called, um, um, what was it called? I think it was called, uh, uh, what was it? Um, How to Something About the Music Business, it was something about that. It was, it was, I forgot the title, but it was a long ass title, like, um, all, oh, it was all about the music business. That's what it was, all about the music business. And I read it and I understood the dynamics of how it all worked. And I was like, oh, so the money's made if you got your own label.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:43Speaker 00

  It's not actually being the artist unless you're just a successful artist that know how to tour, that understand merchandise and all this other stuff. You need the label, cause that right there becomes bulletproof.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  And that's when I said, okay, cool. I'm just gonna start my own label and just find distribution. But I was like, how the fuck am I gonna distribute it? That costs even more money to create. Then I found out they had things, what you call like joint ventures, where you can just partner with a distributor.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:05Speaker 00

  And give them a percentage and they have that part and you have the, the content. And I was like, that's what I want to do.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  But there is a, there is a small difference going on here, which is like. You can produce music.

• 47:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  And like we had RZA on here a few weeks back and it's just like the guys that can actually create something.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Are it's different than I'm just gonna start a record business.

• 47:31Speaker 00

  No, no, for sure.

• 47:32Speaker 03

  It's way more leverage.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  It's the same thing like even in like you're talking about like scripted television or film.

• 47:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  If you can write a script, you're a very different entity than somebody who just gets placed to maybe act in a movie or maybe even just direct.

• 47:48Speaker 00

  One thousand percent.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  So and it's very unique that there is somebody who has artistic ability and business sense. Oftentimes they're like almost diametrically opposed.

• 47:57Speaker 00

  No, they are. They are.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  So you're in a unique position that like you could, if you needed, you could just produce all of your own music or your label.

• 48:07Speaker 00

  But that's what I've been doing.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Of course, and it worked out.

• 48:09Speaker 00

  It makes sense.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  But not everybody could do it.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  Right.

• 48:11Speaker 03

  My favorite story that showcases kind of the business acumen tied with the creativity is the the ringtone story.

• 48:17Speaker 00

  Right, which was to me, basic common sense.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Bro, I couldn't believe that the ringtones were going for that much.

• 48:22Speaker 00

  Yo, $4.99.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  Were we buying ringtones?

• 48:25Speaker 00

  Yes, we were. Buying them and they were they were selling more than singles.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  That's, yeah.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  They were selling more than singles.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  We were spending $5 for a fucking ringtone?

• 48:35Speaker 00

  A ringtone, bro.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  So so so break down the ringtone, what this did and how you kind of like produce songs around it.

• 48:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, so when I realized, okay, well, first of all, I was trying to find a solution because I wasn't getting enough radio play. Like the way my music was, there was, it was hard to put a genre to it. Like it wasn't quite rap. It wasn't quite R and B. It wasn't quite reggae. It was like, what is it?

• 49:00Speaker 01

  Before Locked Up or after Locked Up?

• 49:02Speaker 00

  This was during Locked Up. Like Locked Up itself, what made Locked Up actually pop was the fact that we was able to get Styles P on there.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 49:11Speaker 00

  So Styles P made it. A genre, it became hip hop.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  That's why till this day.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  In the eyes of the consumer.

• 49:19Speaker 00

  Exactly, because before, before Styles was on it, we was working the record a whole year and couldn't get it to stick.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Get it out of here.

• 49:24Speaker 00

  Because there was no genre.

• 49:25Mark Gagnon?

  Wow, I thought that's an instant hit.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Before, before you said it. What does that mean, working a record?

• 49:29Speaker 00

  So that means like promoting it, go on the DJs, you know, go on to radio stations, trying to get it played, things like that. So when we put Styles P on there, it gave it a, because before then they didn't know, okay, what do you play it before? Or what do you play after it, like with genre? So it confused people because they just don't think like a good record just can go behind another good record, right?

• 49:50Mark Gagnon?

  Oh, so there's a version of Locked Up where it's just you?

• 49:52Speaker 00

  The first version is just me.

• 49:53Mark Gagnon?

  Oh, okay.

• 49:54Speaker 00

  So then when they put a genre to it, then they just made it hip hop. Like, that's why right now till this day, if you notice, I've never rapped a day in my life.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I never thought of you as a rapper.

• 50:03Speaker 00

  But if you look up Akon, I'm under hip hop genre. Because that was the first thing that was ever, you know, recorded as, and it stayed that way.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  You know, it's so funny, like, because I was doing a little research about you and you were very intentional with Gaga.

• 50:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  To not sign her under, like, convict, because you didn't want her to be framed in an unkind way.

• 50:24Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  You wanted to have her audience find her organically.

• 50:27Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  And like, did you understand that after you went through this?

• 50:32Speaker 00

  I went through it, yep.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Got it, got it, got it, got it.

• 50:34Speaker 00

  Because I was like, she's like me, they're like, what genre is she really?

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  And then at that time, we were doing eighties music in like late ninety, I mean, late two, early two thousands.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:44Speaker 00

  And, you know, like even right, Promis App would just dance, they thought it was, like, Just Dance was out a whole year before it actually popped. Why? Because I literally had to tour the world to push it. We tried America first, nobody bit. Nobody touched it, they was like, no, this is, this is too old, we can't even put this in our playlist. We went to Europe, Europe was like, well, it's a little cheesy, it's not quite what it is. Then I was like, fuck, I went, I can't let this record go. Like, this is a hit. I know it's a hit. So I, I had a tour in Australia. I flew all the way to Australia. When I got to Australia, I said, I'm gonna push it here. I know for sure they'll get it here. The record didn't work. So now, mind you, that's six and a half, seven months of me working this record and nothing getting no bite.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  So now I'm at a point like, fuck, I'm just gonna give up. Like, we just gotta give up. And I know if I give up, there's a chance that they would really drop her.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  Right? Because she would always have challenges before I picked her up, before, already. So this would have solidified the fact that, okay, this just maybe not it. I was like, no, I can't fucking deal with this. So now I'm trying to figure out how I'm gonna revive this record. So I'm on Australia, heading back to the States. We're connecting through Canada.

• 51:55Speaker 00

  And I was like, should I get off the plane?

• 52:00Speaker 00

  And go to Canada and try it? Like, what would it hurt? I'm connecting, I got five hours there. So I'm in the lobby thinking about this shit while I'm in the lounge. And I said, you know what, man? Fuck this shit. I ain't got nothing to lose. I called a friend. At the time, he was the head of Virgin Radio, named David Magro. I said, yo, David, I got this record I wanna test.

• 52:22Speaker 00

  It's out, but it's like the biggest record in Europe right now. He's doing fucking amazing.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  In Australia?

• 52:29Speaker 00

  Australia. The hustle side. I said, bro, you guys gotta jump on this shit before it reaches America. Like, that'd be embarrassing. It's the number one record on both sides. Like, you need to drop this record, test it with your, you know, with your market, see what you got. He said, all right, come to the station. Leave my bags, everything, and go straight there. He plays the record. This shit becomes number one on phones. The phones start lighting up. Oh, my God, this record is amazing. Who is this?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  People are calling into the radio station?

• 52:59Speaker 00

  They're calling into the station now.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  And is that how you could tell back in the day?

• 53:02Speaker 00

  That's when you knew, if you had something. Because they would say, listen, this is new music. Let us know what you think. And they'd play it. Bro, when I tell you the phone lines lit up. So he was like, man, this record is a fucking smash. We need to add this. I said, what? He said, can we add it to our other stations? I said, hell, yeah. So now, I start going to the other stations. While I'm there, fuck it, mind you, my bags are still on that plane. That plane had already left back to the States. I understand, I understand in Canada, an extra week, going to all the stations. By the time I left Canada, the record was number one in Canada. Then they called like, "Yeah, what the fuck is going on with this record? I think we got something." Then Kiss in New York City picked the fucking record up in America. When they picked it up, everything changed.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Kiss FM?

• 53:44Speaker 00

  Yes. At that time, they were the needle. If Kiss got the record, everybody was like, "Okay."

• 53:50Speaker 01

  What about Z100? Was that like a big pop?

• 53:54Speaker 00

  It was, but not like Kiss though. Kiss was like the generation. Whereas Z was more like the older generation.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:01Speaker 00

  You know what I mean?

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  Kiss though was like, when Kiss said that was it, everybody followed suit.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Follow suit meaning all the other radio stations go?

• 54:10Speaker 00

  Jump on it.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Wow. Okay, and you're recognizing this piece, you believe in this artist, but is there also a version where you're like, you understand how profitable it is to have just a mega star artist under your? So it's worth you taking the time?

• 54:27Speaker 00

  It's 100% worth it.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  All you need is one meaning?

• 54:30Speaker 00

  All you need is one major artist. That one artist can pay the bills for the next 10 years.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 54:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. If you sign the right artists, you're good.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  And you signed, well Gaga was already signed.

• 54:43Speaker 00

  She was already at Interscope.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  And then you were like, "Hey, I think she's talented. Can I work with her?"

• 54:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. And Jimmy literally, that's why I say Jimmy saved my life with that one. Because he threw me the bone. He didn't have to do that.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Really?

• 54:54Speaker 00

  And he made me a 50/50 partner with it.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Get out of here.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  And is it because he knew your talent?

• 55:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, he believed in me.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  And your ability?

• 55:01Speaker 00

  He believed in me.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Got it. So he's like, "Listen, we don't know what to do with this girl. She's obviously got talent. Let him give it a try. If it becomes massive, let's take half of it."

• 55:11Speaker 00

  Well, this is the thing. Jimmy was brilliant. He knew how to put like parts together. Like he knew how to marry a writer with producers, producers with artists, you know, writers with artists. Like he knew exactly what would work. So when I called and was like, "Yo, Jimmy, I need this one." And he thought about it, he's like, you know, that's, that could be brilliant. Cause at that time I was working on the Pussycat Dolls record.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  I remember you.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  So in his mind, he was like, dude, this is, this might. He said, you sure? I said, trust me, Jimmy, this is, I need this one on my label. He said, all right, well, fuck it, she's all yours.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 55:45Speaker 00

  Like, literally thought about it like that. And then when we, when we heard that first record, cause I, the first record I did on her was really for the Pussycat Dolls.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  You had her singing like the scratch vocals for the Pussycat Dolls song.

• 55:57Speaker 00

  Cause she, yeah, cause she came on board, cause I, I had got a writer's block and couldn't come up with nothing that week. I would just, I was so excited, I had just closed this big ass deal, like, and that's what, and I had just picked up Red One, who was the producer that I worked on the whole Gaga album with. And he was like, I just worked with this chick last week, that's pretty dope. I think she'll help you come up with some ideas. And that's when I met Gaga, cause she came into the studio. And then I was like, yo, are you signed? Like, what's your situation? She's like, well, you know, I'm at Interscope. I said, wait, wait, you at Interscope? Hold on, yo, Jimmy, what the fuck?

• 56:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's how it came together.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Wow. And then when did you stop, or have you even stopped working with Gaga?

• 56:36Speaker 00

  Ah, man, we, we did the whole first album in 30 days.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Holy moly.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  Literally the whole.

• 56:41Speaker 03

  And that's all those drives, that's like Poker Face?

• 56:43Speaker 00

  All, that whole first album.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 56:46Speaker 00

  We did that in 30 days. After that, then I got, obviously, on tour, start working on my album. Red was still a part of it, but I wasn't as active as I was on the first album, on the writing side of things. So the second album, I had like, I would say 50% involvement on the creative, but I was heavily involved on pushing the album itself, once it was done. And then the third album, by that time, she had, had her own idea of what she wanted to do and who she wanted to work. And then she partnered up with her ex-boyfriend, who was a producer as well. And then they did those albums moving forward.

• 57:23Speaker 03

  You do a cool thing with Neo on the tour, where you guys go kinda like back to back?

• 57:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, back to back on songs that we wrote for other artists.

• 57:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  And we call it the needle drop.

• 57:30Speaker 03

  There's tracks that you're like, you worked on this?

• 57:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, you would not even know. No, you gotta come to the show.

• 57:35Speaker 03

  Oh, 100%.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  Cause people will know, I don't want them to know until they come to the show.

• 57:38Speaker 03

  Oh, gotta go, okay, okay.

• 57:40Speaker 00

  Cause it's gonna shock you, you'll be surprised.

• 57:41Speaker 01

  Verses when um, Babyface.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like that, it's like that.

• 57:44Speaker 03

  But it's like deep cuts, I mean, he was telling me something outside, where I was like, that one?

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Can you say any that you're not playing in it, that you might, people might not assume?

• 57:52Speaker 00

  It's entertainment, yeah.

• 57:56Speaker 03

  Are there any artists that came along that you had the opportunity to work with or sign? That you were like, ah, I don't know if now is the right time?

• 58:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:02Speaker 03

  And then it's the fish that got away.

• 58:05Speaker 00

  Bro, I had, it's, I had the biggest fishes that's out today, I had, or had an opportunity to do, and I, and I didn't, and I passed on it at the time for specific reasons, but.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  Tell us.

• 58:16Speaker 00

  Okay, so Drake is one of them.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Really?

• 58:19Speaker 00

  Cardinal official had brought me Drake originally.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's so interesting how you pronounce his name.

• 58:25Speaker 00

  Oh, Cardi, yeah.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  So it's interesting because he was the first artist I had ever signed from Canada.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  You signed him?

• 58:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was, yeah, so Cardi was like, yo, nigga, this nigga out here now, he killing the streets.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:37Speaker 00

  And he played me his mixtape, but I was so busy doing so much and I was so busy on the Gaga stuff and,

• 58:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:43Speaker 00

  you know, I had just turned down Justin Bieber because I didn't have time for that because I had, um, Kobe O'Donnis. Yeah, it's like those things. And then I had a, um, one of my security guys, two Ts, was constantly on me about Kendrick. Like literally for a whole year, like, yo, I'm telling you, Con, you got, I'm telling you. But it just, at the time, was so much happening that I, I just didn't have the time to do it.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 59:06Speaker 00

  And then Drake ended up picking up Kendrick. And then Dre would beat me down to do production for Kendrick. But everybody was needing me and I just, there was no time. You know what I'm saying? And I never had the time to stop and listen to see, to hear the, even the genius of what Kendrick was.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  Bro, I was just about to compliment you for your eye for talent and then I'm like,

• 59:24Speaker 00

  No.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  You missed out.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  I didn't miss out. No, I didn't miss out. No, I, I did. I missed, like, literally, had I had an infrastructure?

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:32Speaker 00

  They would have all been bagged at that time, but it was just all me,

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 59:36Speaker 00

  doing my own A and R and doing my own everything.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:39Speaker 00

  And everybody pulling from every direction. And I'm just focusing on what I have on the table now and what needs to happen for that versus what more I need to add to my table.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hey, you didn't have all the wives to help out.

• 59:51Speaker 00

  That's what I'm saying, yeah. Wow.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 59:56Mark Gagnon?

  So now, now you built out the infrastructure?

• 59:59Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, the infrastructure's built out now. Yeah. Now, it did work, yeah. Now it works in my sleep. I don't have to be a part of it at all.

• 1:00:06Mark Gagnon?

  Could you kind of break down what your infrastructure looks like?

• 1:00:08Speaker 00

  It's, it's like a mini universal. It's like, literally like, I have artists I haven't even met yet that's been signed to my label that I haven't even...

• 1:00:14Mark Gagnon?

  So you have different A and Rs that are going and getting...

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  Well now, A and Rs, we don't really use A and Rs anymore. Um, I just felt like A and Rs was a waste of time and money because most of them didn't really know what the hell they was doing anyway. And then have the ear for music. Like, they just went, whatever they saw was popping. So they, they'll read other people's gauge to see...

• 1:00:31Mark Gagnon?

  Instead of having their own.

• 1:00:32Speaker 00

  Instead of having their own. Today, it's like, the people around me, these are the people that was telling me, yo Khan, I don't know about that record. And I'd be like, nah nigga, this is a hit. And they'd be like, ah, I don't know. And then they was right. And I was like, oh shit, okay, they know something that I don't know.

• 1:00:46Mark Gagnon?

  Got it.

• 1:00:47Speaker 00

  Keep him down, keep him, keep, you know what I mean? Type shit, you know what I mean?

• 1:00:51Mark Gagnon?

  Do you ever get, do you ever get worried that it gets too big where you start signing artists and it could have another Lady Gaga situation? Where you have a artist with talent sitting there but isn't...

• 1:01:01Speaker 00

  Oh no, that's, but that's a part of the business. You're not gonna catch everything.

• 1:01:04Mark Gagnon?

  Ah, okay.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  That's, that's one thing that I had to realize and had to just accept, that there's gonna be some ones that you miss. You know what I mean? And it, it just, it is what it is. Like, everything ain't meant, some things are meant to pass by you, but not through you.

• 1:01:19Mark Gagnon?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:20Speaker 00

  And I've realized that had Drake been with me, he probably wouldn't have been that big. Had Kendrick been with me, he probably wouldn't have been that big. It's those things that, that was, that either defined them or things that passed them by that might have motivated them to even go even harder. Because by the time I was and did have time for Drake, his price was a million dollars to sign. He was in a bidding war.

• 1:01:41Mark Gagnon?

  Oh wow.

• 1:01:42Speaker 00

  And I was like, man, I ain't got a million dollars for an artist.

• 1:01:45Mark Gagnon?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:46Speaker 00

  I can't pay for a million dollars for an artist. At that time, I was, I couldn't afford it. You know.

• 1:01:51Speaker 03

  I'm curious, you have such an international appeal. What's the craziest like private event that you got booked to do?

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:57Speaker 03

  With like a king or something like that?

• 1:02:00Speaker 00

  Exactly, it was royalty. And it was funny because.

• 1:02:02Speaker 03

  Where?

• 1:02:03Speaker 00

  It was in the Middle East.

• 1:02:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:04Speaker 00

  Um, I can't say which family, but for the most part, it was the craziest thing because they booked me for a million dollars. Right? And was like, um, well, we want you know, we want you to perform for the family. We have this huge event and um, my daughter's the biggest fan. I said, okay, amazing. So we get prepared, they do everything like it was set up to where it's gonna be like. I even had a dressing room with all my condiments, everything on my rider. Like it was like top notch. So, you know, I go in and I'm getting ready for the show and everything else. It was interesting because I'm like, the castle is so big, I don't hear any music. Right? So I'm like, wow, this is, this is huge, like. So they're walking me to the show.

• 1:02:49Speaker 00

  They walk me to this huge hall. But there's only three chairs. Monster stage, LED lights, lasers, everything. And I'm sitting on the side of the stage waiting for my audience.

• 1:03:10Speaker 03

  No fucking way.

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. Three people came. The daughter, the son and the wife. And she's sitting in the middle, she's just like, just cheesing, just can't wait. I walk out and it's like, okay, this is my audience. Right? Wow! So I go into my show and in the middle of it, she said, no, stop, stop. And I was like, what's, what's, what's going on sweetheart? Everything okay? She's like, I wanna hear Mr. Lonely. I said, that's it? She said, yes, can you just play that first? I said, okay, no problem. So we start singing Mr. Lonely. She's like, Mr. Lonely, I'm still lonely, right? So the song finishes, she's like, ah, again!

• 1:04:05Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Again?

• 1:04:08Speaker 00

  We doing, ah! Again! Bro, listen.

• 1:04:12Speaker 03

  That song's never been more applicable, bro.

• 1:04:16Speaker 03

  I am alone.

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  The whole hour, that's all we.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  No, no way.

• 1:04:22Speaker 00

  That's it.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  She was like funk flex when he gets a new record.

• 1:04:26Speaker 00

  Again, again.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  No, no. How many, how many dudes are with you onstage in total?

• 1:04:33Speaker 00

  No, no, you don't understand. I, my whole team was there. My sound guy, my, my, my lighting guy.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:41Speaker 00

  Road manager, business manager, because we thought it was like a major show. Like, because, I mean, they, they agreed to everything on the rider, bro.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:48Speaker 00

  That's a million dollar stage.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50Speaker 00

  And they set it up in a hall.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:54Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying? Like.

• 1:04:55Speaker 03

  Three people.

• 1:04:56Speaker 00

  It was, it was crazy.

• 1:04:57Speaker 03

  What do you think they spent on it total? Like, the stage is a million dollars, your fee's a million dollars.

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  It, it was an easy five million dollar budget.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Was there a part of you that was like, man, I could have just kept the five million and just sung it with a karaoke?

• 1:05:11Speaker 00

  After, no, listen, bro.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  It's just dream.

• 1:05:13Speaker 00

  After that, in my mind, I'm like, I wish they would have just told me specifics, because I would have just saved them all that money, took half of that and just, just been in the living room and just sang with her, like karaoke with her for like an hour.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:25Speaker 00

  It'd have been better.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:26Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:05:27Speaker 00

  Because, bro, like, even the jet that they sent, it wasn't like a typical jet. It was like a fucking seven.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  Seven forty-seven.

• 1:05:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. It had a full bedroom inside, shower, game room, like theater, like crazy.

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• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Any disaster gigs?

• 1:08:46Speaker 00

  Disaster gigs? Oh, no, there was no disaster gigs, but there was one gig that almost could have been a disaster. I was in Lebanon.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:08:54Speaker 00

  Craziest show. Yo, on everything? The Lebanese crowd is probably the craziest crowd I've ever been in front of.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  Let's go.

• 1:09:01Speaker 00

  Okay, so I'm in the crowd. Well, not yet. I'm in the car, riding through the crowd. This is probably one of the biggest events Lebanon has had since their last bombing, right? This was in nineteen... No, no, no, this was, this was, this was two thousand... No, no, this was two thousand and seven.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Thank God.

• 1:09:22Speaker 00

  This was in two thousand and seven.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:24Speaker 00

  No, so this was to kind of, like, bring morale, just uplift the, you know, because it was going through some

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:09:31Speaker 00

  conflicts, right? And it was like, don't worry, it's gonna be a ceasefire, it's gonna be no issues, whatever. Because a lot of people said they wasn't gonna come. They was all afraid to come. I was the only one that was like, I'll do it, right? Because I just love the Middle East, right? Especially Lebanon, like, bitches, I'm sorry.

• 1:09:50Speaker 00

  They're just, they're party people, right?

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:54Speaker 00

  Bro, I get there, it's like two hundred thousand people easy.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  Holy shit.

• 1:09:58Speaker 00

  It was that big, like, it was easily two hundred thousand people. And we're riding through the crowd, you got the security, blah, blah, blah. And I'm out there performing, man, we go crazy, ghetto comes on, oh my God, it's like, oh, goes nuts. And now we're in the party side. I go into the back and I'm in my absorb ball, like, the absorb ball. Right? I've been, yeah, I've been doing, I've been doing it back then, since then, by the way.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  He goes in one of those... In the, and then you're just going through the crowd.

• 1:10:22Speaker 00

  So, I'm riding through the crowd. And I see this one dude who's like, yeah, I know he's a super fan. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna roll over his way so he can, you know, because I know his, a moment like this for him is like

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 1:10:35Speaker 00

  Crazy, like, he would never forget this moment. So now I'm rolling this way and I see him and I just start rolling over towards him. And as I'm rolling over towards him, I'm getting close, he's like, yeah. And next thing you know, he disappears. I'm like, where the hell did he go? And next thing I look down in the bowl and I see him. And I see him, he has his blade.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:10:55Speaker 00

  Bro.

• 1:10:57Speaker 00

  He takes the blade, shoves it in the ball. Cause he's so fanatically a fan that he wants to hug me. So he hits the ball and I see, and I, so I immediately see him going, I try to hurry up and roll out the other way. But he had already poked it.

• 1:11:16Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:11:17Speaker 00

  So I'm, I'm seeing the ball slowly started to deflate. No, bro, I'm in the middle of like 200,000 people at this time. No, crazy, right?

• 1:11:25Speaker 03

  Security's not near you.

• 1:11:27Speaker 00

  No, I'm in the audience, they can't move eyes at him, they're just watching from the side. But now I'm starting to deflate, so now I said I gotta think quick, cause I can suffocate in this motherfucker with all these people, right? Cause I'm gonna get out, cause you gotta open it from the outside. So then I start thinking quick, I start like calming down so I can see where the, the wind is coming from, so I can find the hole. And then I realized the hole is above me, so I rolled toward the hole that's right up under me. And then I put my fingers in, like just open it up and I slide out and then the ball just go. So everybody's like, ah. Like no, everybody's like scared, like what the fuck's going on? In the meantime, I then came out and I'm on my knees, like this, under everybody, on my way back to the, to the stage.

• 1:12:07Speaker 00

  By the time the ball had sunk all the way down and people realized where the hell I was, I'd already made it back to the stage.

• 1:12:13Speaker 03

  Get the fuck out of here.

• 1:12:15Speaker 00

  Bro, cause everybody's working towards the ball, nobody realized that I was crawling already towards the stage. I get to the stage. And the fucking crowd thought I was a magician.

• 1:12:26Speaker 03

  A magician?

• 1:12:27Speaker 00

  A magician.

• 1:12:30Speaker 00

  The crowd thought I was a magician, right? My, yo, my white guy, my white guy was so brilliant, soon as he saw me.

• 1:12:37Speaker 03

  Spot.

• 1:12:38Speaker 00

  Hit the black and put the spotlight on me. I was like Lebanon, he was like ah! It was, yo, that shit was the craziest show, I'll never forget that moment.

• 1:12:47Speaker 03

  Wow, that is fire.

• 1:12:50Speaker 01

  You gotta incorporate that from now on.

• 1:12:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was crazy. No, because I don't want to give people ideas when I go out in the ball.

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, fair.

• 1:12:56Speaker 00

  So I kind of try to keep that quiet.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  You just did.

• 1:13:03Mark Gagnon?

  You, how come you haven't performed in the States in a while?

• 1:13:05Speaker 00

  Um, I just, man, it was, well, for two reasons. One, they wasn't paying enough. And two, I was just so busy, like, literally, it was like a two, almost two and a half, sometime three year waitness for me to get available to perform out here. Because I was so in demand on the other side, to the point where when a promoter wanted me, and they'd be like, damn, I gotta wait a year and a half, nah, I just booked somebody else. And that's how it was like that.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  So how long has it been since you've done a proper tour in America?

• 1:13:31Speaker 00

  Man, I would say since two thousand, probably four, no, twelve, two thousand twelve.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:13:43Speaker 00

  Yep, two thousand twelve, was me in Usher.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:13:46Mark Gagnon?

  That's crazy.

• 1:13:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:48Mark Gagnon?

  But all this time you've been performing?

• 1:13:49Speaker 00

  All this time I've been performing internationally.

• 1:13:52Mark Gagnon?

  Wow.

• 1:13:52Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  And never, never considered living internationally? Because you're mostly in Atlanta, right?

• 1:13:59Speaker 00

  Well, that's the thing, I got, like, I got a house in Atlanta, a house in LA, a house in France, a house in Senegal, a house in Dubai. So I kind of do live internationally, but I'm just always traveling.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:14:10Speaker 00

  You know, so there's like, there's no one place I can just call home. Because I'm always moving around and shit.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  Is there, was there ever concern, like, when you're in Senegal, was there ever concern about safety because of just how famous you had become?

• 1:14:26Speaker 00

  Nah, because it's like, me, I never looked at it as a safety issue. Because it's all, it's all love, like, the people, it's coming from a love perspective.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  Love can be dangerous too, meaning like...

• 1:14:35Speaker 00

  It could be, like, yeah, a hundred percent.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  Trying to poke a thing.

• 1:14:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  But more just like people wanting to see you, people rushing them all.

• 1:14:43Speaker 00

  That was always the thing, like, just having crowd control, like, security for crowd control.

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  And did that become, did it become difficult to spend time there because of that?

• 1:14:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, in Senegal, Senegal was one of the places it was difficult to spend time because of that.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  So what would you do? Do you have, like, a compound there? Like, how do you?

• 1:15:00Speaker 00

  Well, I got a house on the island, and you need a boat to get out to it. Yeah.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 1:15:06Speaker 00

  That was the only way.

• 1:15:08Mark Gagnon?

  Are you worried about coming back to the States? Like what your reception is gonna be?

• 1:15:12Speaker 00

  Oh nah. I mean, my legacy is already built. It don't even really matter.

• 1:15:16Mark Gagnon?

  Okay.

• 1:15:17Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying? Cause the fanbase is already there. And they hadn't seen me in forever, so.

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  So they're starved.

• 1:15:21Speaker 00

  It's a treat for them. It's starved, right? Yeah, he's starving for it. I'ma give it to him too.

• 1:15:26Mark Gagnon?

  And are you going out with Neo?

• 1:15:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, me and Neo got a collab tour now that we're doing. So we got all together 70 dates. We just did 30 in Europe. We're about to do 10 in Canada. Then we're doing another 30 in America.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:15:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  What was it like working with Eminem?

• 1:15:40Speaker 00

  Ah, man, I love working with him. I love working with him.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  How did that come to be? Was that?

• 1:15:44Speaker 00

  That was through Obi Trice, actually. Obi Trice was the one that connected me with Eminem.

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  Oh wow.

• 1:15:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, cause I had this record I did for Obi. And I was like, Obi, don't worry. Don't worry, you ain't gotta pay me. I just need a feature from Eminem.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:15:59Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying? Like, I just need a feature from him. He was like, ah, man, gotta talk to Goldberg about that one. I was like, alright, well, let's figure this out. He said, but nah, he ain't gonna let it happen. We just gotta find him. You gotta get to him directly.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  Goldberg?

• 1:16:13Speaker 00

  Um.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Rosenberg.

• 1:16:14Speaker 00

  Rosenberg. Rosenberg. Yeah, that's a Goldberg. That's a Rosenberg.

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  He's the wrestler.

• 1:16:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, Rosenberg. So Obi was like, yo, just come to Detroit. I'll just take you to the studio.

• 1:16:26Speaker 00

  I was like, man, I don't wanna be on Rosenberg's bad side. Let me just call him first.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:30Speaker 00

  So I called Rosenberg. I said, yo, um, I got this record I wanna do with Eminem.

• 1:16:37Speaker 00

  What do you think? He said, well, send it to me. I didn't have it at the time.

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  You know? I didn't have it at the time. I said, um, I gotta, I gotta kinda put it together. When I put it together, I'ma, I'ma, I'ma send it to you. He said, alright, cool, just let me know. So at that moment, I put the seed down.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:55Speaker 00

  He knew that, you know?

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was interest there.

• 1:16:58Speaker 00

  Right. I put the seed down, he knew. So then I said, okay, Obi, alright, cool, let's go. We gotta get the record, cause I gotta send it to Rosenberg, right? Boom. So Obi was like, alright, cool. So now we, we, we posted looking all over him. Cause Eminem, you know, he don't never really know where Eminem's gonna be. So we post outside the studio. M doesn't show up that day. So I'm like, well, he might show up at night. Kobe was like, I mean, Obie was like, nah, he'll never come up late night. Cause we stay nights in studios. He said, nah, nah, M don't operate like that. I said, all right, well, let's come tomorrow. He said, you gotta come early before he come. So we come early, like 6 a.m. so we don't miss him. So I was like, we staking out in the studio. It was the funniest thing. So M finally shows up. He said, that nigga go right there. Come on, let's go. So then we come, M was like, oh shit, what's up, what's up, what's up?

• 1:17:43Speaker 00

  So I come through and I was like, yeah, yo, M, man, we need to get in the lab. Like, you know, this work. He said, I, you know, I came my little briefcase with all my tracks and everything. I said, I got mad records for you too. I wanna play you a few records. So now I'm going to make sure I get records for him first before I ask for something.

• 1:17:59Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. Yeah, you're offering value first.

• 1:18:01Speaker 00

  So he was like, yo, you know, I produce too. I said, really? He said, yeah. I said, well, play me some tracks. So now he's playing me some tracks. I didn't even know M produced.

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:10Speaker 00

  I had no idea.

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:18:12Speaker 00

  Bro, the Smack That track came on. I was like, yo, this shit is crazy. Can I get that? He said, hell, yeah. So I take the track and he gave me four more. So all together, I picked five tracks. I started on the what's name one first though. The Smack That record. And then after I finished on the M Heard here, and I was like, what do you think? He said, yo, this is crazy. Bro, this is fucking, this is a hit.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  So this is M's production?

• 1:18:37Speaker 00

  M's production.

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  You asked for it because you're like, I can do something with that?

• 1:18:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:18:41Speaker 01

  Are you tweaking anything in the production? Or you laying vocals on it?

• 1:18:45Speaker 00

  That track was produced solely by Eminem.

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:18:47Speaker 00

  A lot of people don't know that. They thought I produced it.

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  I thought you produced it too.

• 1:18:50Speaker 00

  Right. That was the only track on my album that I didn't produce, by the way.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:18:54Speaker 00

  M produced Smack That, right? So interestingly enough, M Heard and I was like, bro, you really think it's a hit? He said, hell, yeah, this is a smash. I said, you should jump on it.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:05Speaker 00

  Right? I said, you should jump on it with me. He's like, yeah, you know, I think about it.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  Okay, so, so he, because everybody's asking him to be on a song.

• 1:19:12Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  So it's a ballsy move to go, hey, be on my shit.

• 1:19:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  Like, for you, you have to find the right moment.

• 1:19:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  You throw it out there.

• 1:19:20Speaker 00

  I just throw it out there.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  And then when he goes, let me think about it, you're like, cool, cool.

• 1:19:23Speaker 00

  I'm like, hell, yeah, that's nothing. Because it really wasn't. Me, it was just great enough that he's producing. I was happy to be able to say Eminem produced this track.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:31Speaker 00

  I was cool with that.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:32Speaker 00

  Right? So now I'm working on the other tracks. So I'm kinda hearing the song playing in the background. Not quite sure, you know, if he just listened to it to see what he want to do from a production perspective.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  Oh, you're hearing him listen to it.

• 1:19:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, listen to it. So I'm thinking, okay, now he want to tweak the beat, whatever the case may be. So he goes off to lunch, we come back. By that time, I done worked on the other tracks. Five o'clock come, I'm like, yo, where's M? Like, M left. I was like, where he go? He went home. I was like, oh shit, he just went home while we was working? I didn't know that he set a timeline at the studio. He comes in, lunchtime, he takes lunch, five o'clock, he goes home. He treated it like a real night and five. Right? And I was like, damn, that's interesting. Like, it fucked me up because he accomplished just as much work as he's supposed to accomplish in that little time that I did spending the night there. So I started to rethink everything. It was actually after that that I started to really manage my time better.

• 1:20:29Speaker 00

  Like, in life. Because after that, I realized now I can make time for my kids, make time for my family, and not be consumed by the studio all day, every day. He comes back the next day. He say, yo, man, I did some minor adjustments to the song. I want to let you know what you think. So I'm playing it, I'm hearing my verse come in, boom. Then his verse come, oh, looks like another one. I said, whoa, oh shit!

• 1:20:58Speaker 00

  I heard the verse, I was like, oh, this shit is so boss. I was like, in my mind, I was like, oh, this shit is gonna be crazy. Then I'm like, okay, whose record is gonna be though?

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah, yeah, naturally.

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  So now I'm just waiting for it, you know, I'm just like, so we gonna put this on your album?

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  So you're deferential to him, obviously? He raps on it. You're doing the respectful thing, which is like, yo, is this on yours? Like, what do you want to do?

• 1:21:20Speaker 00

  I mean, think about it, you were producing, now you're featuring on it? Like, because some, like, like, prime example, what I did, I Want to Love You. Me and Snoop did the same thing, where we actually put it on both of our albums.

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  And that's been done before.

• 1:21:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, right? So that's when I, you know, I was like, so, yeah, what do you think, you know? Should it be on your album? What, how you wanna work this? He's like, nah, bro, it's on your album.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  So he just gives the song to you?

• 1:21:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's like, yo, bro, let's go, like. You know, and then later it became a, um, a bonus track off, on his album as well, too, because the record became such a huge record.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  And then, and for you, there was no issue with that at all?

• 1:21:53Speaker 00

  Nah, hell no.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  It's even more spin.

• 1:21:55Speaker 00

  It was even better, because now I got a, a bigger, broader audience on top of that, to also bring this record to them.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  That's so cool. Holy shit.

• 1:22:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  And then that, it just goes crazy. When you're hearing a song like this, you've produced it, so the creative part is quote-unquote done?

• 1:22:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's the easy part.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  Are you going? Are you like assigning a dollar amount to what you think this song is gonna do?

• 1:22:18Speaker 00

  Nah, never.

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  Okay, so there's never a financial thing? It's more just like, this is gonna impact culture?

• 1:22:24Speaker 00

  It's about how big the record is gonna be, yeah.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  I'm gonna perform this?

• 1:22:27Speaker 00

  If it's gonna be, yeah, cuz I, like, like, the creative part is automatic. And me, if the record is a hit, the financial part is automatic.

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  It's just gonna happen?

• 1:22:36Speaker 00

  It's, yeah, if a hit record's gonna generate money, no matter how you look at it.

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  For those of us who have no fucking clue, what does a hit record generate?

• 1:22:43Speaker 00

  It, it pays the bills.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  Of course, but like, is it? Can you tell us like what it will do?

• 1:22:49Speaker 00

  Depending on how big the record could be. Like, you got some records that literally, cuz, okay, prime example, let's say-

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  Let's say smack that.

• 1:22:56Speaker 00

  Let, let, let's say smack that for instance, right? I can't tell you the exact number, but I can tell you that that record, I'll be getting paid for that record for the rest of my life.

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  Are we talking about, like?

• 1:23:07Speaker 00

  Like royalty checks.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  Of no, of course, of course. Are we talking about 20 million? We talking about?

• 1:23:11Speaker 00

  Well, that's the thing.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  2 million?

• 1:23:12Speaker 00

  That's the thing, you can't quantify how much it eventually will make, because it will always continue to make money, like-

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  Let's say in a 10-year period.

• 1:23:19Speaker 00

  Like, like, let's say in a, let's, let's use it in a, let's, quarterly period. Every three months.

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:25Speaker 00

  Every three months, that record could generate easily about 150 to 200,000 dollars.

• 1:23:29Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:23:30Speaker 00

  Every three months.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  And you got a lot of smack that?

• 1:23:32Speaker 03

  A lot of those.

• 1:23:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that's for-

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  In perpetuity, they just can-

• 1:23:36Speaker 00

  Right, and guess what? It spiked during, and that was before digital. That was before digital with the label taking all the extra shit out. Now, digital is more accurate. And when you had Spotify, you got the streaming and you know, you have the Netflix of the worlds, the Apples of the worlds, the Amazons of the worlds. Now you got AI coming that's gonna also bring in. The record now goes from that into digital world, it tripled off top just from that. And then when AI comes, where it now becomes even bigger and global and being attached, it can make easily up to a million dollars a quarter.

• 1:24:11Speaker 01

  A quarter?

• 1:24:12Speaker 00

  Forever.

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  Wow. And the record makes that and then everybody gets their piece of that?

• 1:24:16Speaker 00

  Then everybody gets their piece of that. But the writer gets it, the producer gets it, the labor distributor gets it, whoever owns the masters gets their piece like that and it's kinda, it all breaks down.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  And if there's an artist.

• 1:24:26Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  That has a massive, huge song.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  Assuming they're not in like a completely predatory contract, like say they're an artist that they have, you know, a piece of their publishing and all these things.

• 1:24:39Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  One song, they could potentially never work again.

• 1:24:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, one hit record.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  One hit record, they'll never work again.

• 1:24:46Speaker 00

  Let's say one classic.

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  And that is different than a hit?

• 1:24:49Speaker 00

  That's a hit, different hit, cause sometime hits come and they go. But classics stick around for a long time.

• 1:24:54Speaker 01

  So if you, and this goes back to the Michael.

• 1:24:56Speaker 00

  So the goal is to make classics.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and this goes back to the Michael thing, when you start owning.

• 1:25:00Speaker 00

  Yes, this is why Mike had so much power, cause he owned catalogs that was filled with classics.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  Like you know, the Beatles at one point, I think? Explain, so explain that to me. Like you think, so you think that this was potentially, without, you know, putting yourself in a compromising position, but like you think that there was certain people out there that felt threatened with the amount of power that Mike had?

• 1:25:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was alleged that at the end of the day, he owned too much.

• 1:25:27Speaker 00

  Like he owned too many shares of Sony to where he controlled it.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  Because he owned the classic records or too many of them? Wow. And then so that, so there might have been people.

• 1:25:39Speaker 00

  And he didn't wanna sell.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  And they were like, hey, we need control. Or maybe somebody over there.

• 1:25:45Speaker 00

  So it was alleged that because he didn't want to sell, they said, okay, cool, we're going to pressure you to sell. And if not, then we're going to devalue you to the point where it doesn't, it's not worth that much.

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  Holy shit.

• 1:25:55Speaker 00

  And that's where that came in to devalue him.

• 1:25:59Speaker 01

  And what does devaluing him do to the records?

• 1:26:03Speaker 00

  Oh, it doesn't really do much to the records itself, but it does to his.

• 1:26:08Speaker 01

  Financial situation?

• 1:26:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  And now he's in force to sell these records?

• 1:26:13Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  Whoa, so, okay, so this is, obviously, we've all heard the side that, you know, people have made the allegations against Mike, etc. So the other side, the other argument would be, he has so much power, they first try to pressure him to sell.

• 1:26:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  What are they doing to pressure him to sell?

• 1:26:30Speaker 00

  I mean, like how they do with everything. They first attack your reputation, your likeness.

• 1:26:38Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:26:38Speaker 00

  They, they take the power your name has and make it muddy to the point where nobody wants to be attached to it.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  So this is a, this is an interesting.

• 1:26:47Speaker 00

  And it always starts with allegations with women, sex, pedophilia. You know, I mean, you see it happen with every powerful person at a certain time in their life when they don't want to play ball. The reason why it never happened to Trump is Trump didn't give a fuck.

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:27:03Speaker 00

  He owned up to it and said, yeah, okay, I did it, man. Fuck you, niggas, locker room talk. We all do it. He didn't say, no, I didn't do it. Or he didn't try to distance himself from the allegations. He stepped up to it and then there's no power because now you get support.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  Sometimes in sports, you see this where like, a player's coming on a contract year and all of a sudden a video leaks of them like rolling a joint with like some cocaine on the table. Remember that happened with like L. D. Beckham Jr.? Do you think that's the same thing? You think that's like powers that be?

• 1:27:36Speaker 00

  It depends because sometime everyone has a backstory that you don't quite be aware of. But certain people, when they get to a certain level, there's certain things they're asked to do that sometimes most people play ball and some people don't do it. And when you don't do it, depending on what they're asking you to do, now you seem to be not a part of the club. So when you're not a part of that club, okay, we need to remove this person because he's a threat to everybody else. It's almost like a cricket cop within a precinct. He knows where the bones are buried.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  So you gotta get that motherfucker out of there.

• 1:28:08Speaker 00

  You gotta either play with us, or somehow there's gonna be an accident and a police report written that makes everybody okay and you not.

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  Hmm, because think about it.

• 1:28:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  That one person threatens everybody else. And why was Michael owning all the music so threatening to them?

• 1:28:27Speaker 00

  That's a very good question.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  Like, what is that like, why, why couldn't they just continue to make more songs and make more hits and then have other things?

• 1:28:36Speaker 00

  See, okay, there's a word that's more powerful than value in itself, and that's hope.

• 1:28:45Speaker 00

  Mike is the most, arguably, the biggest artist on the planet, and he's black. It's one thing to be a big black artist, but, no, but it's true.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 1:28:58Speaker 00

  But to be a big, black, powerful artist that runs the business?

• 1:29:02Speaker 01

  Oh, now you're...

• 1:29:04Speaker 00

  That's something different.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:29:05Speaker 00

  If Mike can be that guy, what makes you think I can't be that guy? Or LeBron can't be that guy for NBA?

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  So you think they're attacking the hope?

• 1:29:13Speaker 00

  It's the hope, yes.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  They're attacking the systems and power to be.

• 1:29:16Speaker 00

  That's what it is.

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:29:17Speaker 00

  Because you gotta think about it. We're the, we're, we're, we, when you talk from a cultural perspective, and I don't want to sound like it's to be racist or anything, but when you look at it from a cultural perspective, whether it's entertainment, fashion, or sports.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:29Speaker 00

  Right? Black and brown people are the ones that generating the billions, but we don't own the content and we don't control it.

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  And there's no real reason why you shouldn't be able to do it since you can generate it.

• 1:29:40Speaker 00

  Right, but the moment we put ourselves in a position to be able to do that, what it do?

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  You can't stop touching kids.

• 1:29:45Speaker 00

  The ones that...

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  Come on, man.

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  Why does that happen to you guys? Oh, hell, dude.

• 1:29:56Speaker 00

  But that's my point.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  Get a little bit of power, you know?

• 1:29:58Speaker 00

  I could, no, he can't be that guy, he's touching kids. But because that's so sensitive to society, that's always the first place they go to start to attack. And that's why, when you see that, you gotta first say, wait a minute, what's really happening? You don't just agree with that. Find out what's happening behind it, and find out why it's going there first.

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  And why do you think that Michael's team didn't push more of that out there? Why do you think that there wasn't more like that?

• 1:30:26Speaker 00

  Well, you gotta think, they own the media.

• 1:30:30Speaker 00

  It's Michael Jackson, like, no one's bigger than him from a perspective of voice. But if you can't use the platforms that your voice can be heard in, your voice has meant nothing. So if Mike can't use it, what makes you think the people around him gonna be it is?

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  Oh shit.

• 1:30:43Speaker 00

  No, it's a game. It's like, it's, it's powers that know how to control the situation. It's all about how you control the narrative. And then the companies that actually own what controls the narrative, who controls that? So it's almost like, you gotta just be careful how you move.

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  He was talking about the predatory practices and then Prince was also talking about it.

• 1:31:06Speaker 00

  They all talked about it because they were all, you know, in handcuffs, but it's not much you can do. You could just say it, but the people you're telling it to is blind and deaf to it.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  Can I, can I, is there a part of you that as you ascended to superstardom? And then you start shifting into more, I wouldn't want to say political things, but like infrastructural things, wanting to build a city.

• 1:31:31Speaker 00

  I'm a victim of it too. I was a victim 100%. I mean, you saw the attacks on Akon City.

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing I want to ask you about.

• 1:31:36Speaker 00

  That was clearly, clearly that.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  So that, that is where.

• 1:31:42Speaker 00

  That's why I shut the fuck up.

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  And again, we don't have to talk about it, so you're not comfortable talking about it. But like, is there a part of you that's going through, it's like, oh wow, now I'm attacking like system and structures? If I can just come in and make this majestic city within this country that I love and cherish, all the people that exist within this country and the powers be that within this country that haven't done that yet.

• 1:32:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:32:07Speaker 01

  Now you're potentially threatening

• 1:32:10Speaker 00

  That.

• 1:32:10Speaker 01

  That power.

• 1:32:11Speaker 00

  100%.

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  Cause if I'm the person that's living there, I'm going, well, why the fuck haven't John done this? Why the hell didn't he?

• 1:32:16Speaker 03

  And then every other country in West Africa, right? Like Ibrahim Traori takes over and all of a sudden all these other countries are like, oh, why don't we do that?

• 1:32:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. After that happened, guess what? There was four more coups. And then the other ones are now preparing and there was some that got stopped and he goes, so it was like, it becomes a domino effect because it's human nature. It's almost like a very successful person walking through the mall. Nobody really notices, some do, but they're afraid to go ask for a picture. It only takes one person to say, oh my God, can I get a picture? And then next you know, everybody's like, oh shit. So then everybody comes and does it. So to control just human nature and the way how we are, because we're just followers by nature. There's not that many leaders, right? The majority of humans are followers. So the ones that actually lead, it depends on what you're leading and you gotta be able to control that.

• 1:33:04Speaker 00

  Because if one person gets the hope to move in that direction, it can offset everything that was built.

• 1:33:09Speaker 03

  If that leadership is at odds with someone else's agenda, they need to stop it.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  So do you think that you, you had people that were working against?

• 1:33:16Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, it was very clear.

• 1:33:17Speaker 01

  And, and the goal was attainable?

• 1:33:21Speaker 00

  More than attainable.

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  Right, because the outside perspective, I'm sure you were probably having to defend is nonstop.

• 1:33:28Speaker 00

  I mean, I realized me defending it only made it look more, it made it look worse.

• 1:33:34Speaker 01

  That's an interesting thing because the knee jerk reflexive reaction is that guys, this is what I want to do. I want to do good in the world. We could do this.

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  But the more you keep saying it, then they start looking at you like, where are you? How are you involved in this question?

• 1:33:48Speaker 00

  They looking like, okay, Khan is a hundred percent part Illuminati. I'm like, what the fuck? Bro, like you go on YouTube right now, they tell you all Illuminati, they start looking at my show, they start seeing signs. I was like, oh shit. It made me believe I was a part of it. Because the way they put that shit together, bro, it's like, this shit is so interesting. It's like, damn. These motherfuckers are clever.

• 1:34:11Speaker 00

  Bro, it's like, phew.

• 1:34:13Mark Gagnon?

  I love, I love the work and the way you highlight Africa. Are you still doing the work, but just doing it more?

• 1:34:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, now I'm just doing it in a more smarter way to where it doesn't.

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  Attack the powers that be.

• 1:34:25Speaker 00

  Attack the powers that be, but more support them in a way to where they can get what they want, but we can get what we want to.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  This is a lighting project.

• 1:34:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, so like, you know, so my thing is, okay, let's find a way to coexist. I get you need the resources here, but we also need the resources too.

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:41Speaker 00

  You can't just take the resources from Africa, build your country up, and then ours is still fucked up.

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:45Speaker 00

  How do we work it to, and this is the agreements that was made with China. China figured out, okay, cool. We understand you don't have the liquid cash, but you do have the resources. But we need your resources.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:57Speaker 00

  So give us what your resources is worth, and then we'll give you that back in infrastructure.

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 1:35:01Speaker 00

  And that made sense.

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:35:03Speaker 00

  Right, so now China's in Africa building roads, roundabouts, bridges. You know, putting down fiber optics for technical futures and things like that. Whereas Europe, America, they just took the resources and left.

• 1:35:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:20Speaker 00

  And didn't even send no money back for nothing.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  Put that more on Europe than us.

• 1:35:25Speaker 01

  He's right. I've been doing that for a while.

• 1:35:27Speaker 00

  No, no, no, it's more real, it's sure completely more Europe.

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  We do that to the Middle East.

• 1:35:31Speaker 00

  No, America only comes in when the oil is.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, South America.

• 1:35:35Speaker 00

  No, they do Africa too.

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  A little bit.

• 1:35:37Speaker 00

  They do a proxy, they do a physical proxy.

• 1:35:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, we outsource that.

• 1:35:42Speaker 00

  I'm American, so I know.

• 1:35:46Speaker 00

  I'm straddling both sides of the fence, but I'm trying to unite us. Because I was the one in the White House trying to get America to partner with Africa before China did.

• 1:35:56Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:35:57Speaker 00

  But they didn't get it.

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  This is, dude, this is the, the political game.

• 1:36:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Is a very dangerous one.

• 1:36:05Speaker 00

  No, it's very dangerous.

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  When you attack people with real power.

• 1:36:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:09Speaker 01

  It's very different than music.

• 1:36:10Speaker 00

  Nah, bro, you think, you think, nigga, listen, you talking about gangster?

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  That's the most gang.

• 1:36:16Speaker 00

  That shit?

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:17Speaker 03

  Governments and mafia.

• 1:36:18Speaker 00

  Bro, they, they, nigga, they bigger than the mafia. The mafia is afraid of the government.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't worry about that.

• 1:36:24Speaker 00

  That's small potatoes.

• 1:36:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:26Speaker 00

  Because those powers is something that you don't want to play with.

• 1:36:28Mark Gagnon?

  There's something that interests me so much, because like, I, I saw you say somewhere, like, something that really bothers you is the fact that black people can't work together.

• 1:36:36Speaker 00

  Come together, yeah.

• 1:36:36Mark Gagnon?

  Yeah. Why, like, how can we come together?

• 1:36:40Speaker 00

  I mean, the thing is that there's a lack of trust within our community, unfortunately.

• 1:36:43Mark Gagnon?

  How can we change that?

• 1:36:44Speaker 00

  It's hard. Only thing that can do, you can't, that's not something that can be changed overnight. That's something that they have to change for a generational, like, like, like, cycle. Because we have to teach our children and they have to be the one to make the change.

• 1:36:57Mark Gagnon?

  Okay.

• 1:36:57Speaker 00

  Like, we're too gone. Like, our mindset and mentality is so left that it's impossible. Like, this generation is out.

• 1:37:04Mark Gagnon?

  I admire that of other culture that are able to come together and like pull their wealth together to move up.

• 1:37:09Speaker 00

  That's how you have to do it.

• 1:37:10Mark Gagnon?

  It sucks that we're not able to do it as a people, but it's also, it's like, there's black Americans and then there's Africans and even they don't get along at the time.

• 1:37:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, because it's a divide of how, and it's also information too. Like, information can be very dangerous if you know how to properly use it to, to create divide, right? But if it's being, um, used to create unity, right now can be dangerous because such a capitalist, you know, environment that we're living in and so many agendas that can, that can actually affect, that it's in the world's best interest to keep Africans and black people divided.

• 1:37:42Mark Gagnon?

  Yes.

• 1:37:42Speaker 00

  Because Africa holds so much power.

• 1:37:45Mark Gagnon?

  So if they were united.

• 1:37:46Speaker 00

  So much power.

• 1:37:47Mark Gagnon?

  Yeah, they would be able to organize around that power.

• 1:37:49Speaker 00

  Period. Everything that they see it.

• 1:37:51Mark Gagnon?

  Tell us one thing that black Americans can maybe do to help bridge that gap.

• 1:37:55Speaker 00

  They just come together. That's it.

• 1:37:56Mark Gagnon?

  No, but like.

• 1:37:57Speaker 00

  Like, literally, literally come together, put together pools, bring your investments together, invest together and literally create and build together.

• 1:38:06Mark Gagnon?

  And how does one, how does one invest in Africa?

• 1:38:09Speaker 00

  Let me give you a prime example. The one thing that you have to respect on this planet is how small a population the Jewish are, but how united they are.

• 1:38:23Mark Gagnon?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:23Speaker 00

  They're the smallest population on the planet, but they're the most powerful. Why is that? Because they come together, they pool together, they invest together and they build together. And then when there's a problem, they stay together.

• 1:38:37Speaker 00

  What happens when there's a problem with my niggas? I don't know that nigga.

• 1:38:42Speaker 00

  Yo, yo, yo, don't bring that shit over here, bro. I don't even know problems, my nigga, chill. You know what I'm saying? On their side, they're like, hold on, because if that affects you, that affects us. How do we fix it? We need them conversations and we can't continue to blame the white man for every fault that goes on in the fucking society.

• 1:39:01Mark Gagnon?

  Hold on now.

• 1:39:02Speaker 00

  But it's true. I'm just being real.

• 1:39:04Speaker 01

  We like to be talked about.

• 1:39:07Speaker 00

  I'm talking like, you're not sitting right there. It's a brother conversation, but it's real.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  We like to be reminded how powerful we are. Don't take that away from us. If you stop blaming white people, brother, we'll start to think we're not running shit.

• 1:39:22Speaker 00

  But that's the point.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  I'm really infuriated.

• 1:39:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, we just gotta stop. Because man, when I realized, bro, as much as I travel, that problem only exists in America in maybe two or three parts of Europe. But the rest of the world is united and they all coexist.

• 1:39:38Speaker 01

  This is a young, this is a young place, though. Like, I think that's another thing that it's tough for us to compare to. Like, you're looking at European civilizations that existed for thousands of years.

• 1:39:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  America's a young country.

• 1:39:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  We're about to be 250 years old. The black American experience in America

• 1:39:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's different.

• 1:39:55Speaker 01

  is super young because a lot of the black Americans don't even have connectivity to their roots in Africa.

• 1:40:00Speaker 00

  That's so true.

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  So you're like inventing a new identity.

• 1:40:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  And unfortunately, um, because of fucking what his family did.

• 1:40:12Speaker 03

  My family's in Canada.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  No, no, no, he's not doing that.

• 1:40:15Speaker 03

  No, he was talking some shit.

• 1:40:17Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 1:40:18Speaker 03

  I wasn't doing nothing, bro.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 1:40:21Speaker 03

  Sorry to the natives, but no, no, no, black Americans, they were coming up there as a safe haven.

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:26Speaker 03

  Fell for that trick.

• 1:40:29Speaker 03

  This is a sketchy, you're welcome.

• 1:40:31Speaker 01

  But like, but like, so unfortunately, like, a lot of the experience is this, like, shared trauma.

• 1:40:36Speaker 00

  It's shared trauma.

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  So it's like, eventually, ideally, you get to the point where it's like, a lot of the experience is shared culture.

• 1:40:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  And like, the most ideal version is like, we all share culture. Like, that's like, that'd be amazing.

• 1:40:49Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:40:49Speaker 01

  We all share culture and everything is incredible and we can all rally around being American despite us having cultural differences, et cetera. I know that you gotta get right there. But like, that would be the ideal scenario. But there is a version where, like, what we've done in 250 years, most countries haven't done in thousands of years.

• 1:41:07Speaker 00

  That's 100%.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  But we still got, you know, very far to go.

• 1:41:10Speaker 00

  No, but to your credit, to your credit, what we've done as a culture here is definitely a light at the end of the tunnel. Because right now, my kids don't know what racism is.

• 1:41:23Speaker 00

  They wasn't raised that way. Like, their friends are from all parts of the world. It's like, it's like, it's like United Nations at my house.

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:30Speaker 00

  Literally, they don't see each other from that perspective.

• 1:41:32Speaker 01

  They know racism exists, of course, but they're not experiencing it. And maybe the same way that maybe you and I saw it growing up or something like that.

• 1:41:40Mark Gagnon?

  There's a lot of flavor over there.

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  There's a lot of flavor over there.

• 1:41:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's all in how, it's all in how the adults teach their children, though. Because if they keep it going, then it's gonna continue to go moving forward, right? But if we allow them to be able to just be themselves and get to understand each other as they are without putting our thought and process and our ideology on them, it actually can change overnight.

• 1:42:03Mark Gagnon?

  That's true, but you gotta tell them that, too.

• 1:42:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  We're, we're working on it. We're working on it. Okay.

• 1:42:08Speaker 03

  We'll discuss it and we'll get back to you.

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  You gotta, you gotta get out. Before you get out of here, we just need your World Cup. We just need your World Cup hot take right here.

• 1:42:15Speaker 00

  So my, my, my World Cup prediction.

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  You were talking crazy shit outside.

• 1:42:18Speaker 00

  I was. I said, the finals is gonna be Senegal and US.

• 1:42:23Speaker 01

  What are the chances on Kaochi that we have a?

• 1:42:26Speaker 00

  What's, what's, what's the chances of Senegal?

• 1:42:28Speaker 01

  It's 0.8% for, for Senegal.

• 1:42:32Speaker 00

  Right. So what about, what about the US?

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  The US is 1.6%.

• 1:42:37Mark Gagnon?

  Oh, I'll take those odds.

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:39Speaker 03

  But that's a tough one for you. You're a dual citizen. If, if Senegal and USA is in the final.

• 1:42:44Speaker 00

  I went both ways.

• 1:42:45Speaker 03

  But who do you root for, though? What jersey do you wear to the stadium?

• 1:42:47Speaker 01

  Oh, great question, bro.

• 1:42:49Speaker 00

  Oh, that's actually a very good question.

• 1:42:50Speaker 01

  Great question.

• 1:42:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:42:52Speaker 01

  Because there's the businessman in you.

• 1:42:54Speaker 00

  No, no, no. Honestly, I will get a, a customized jersey made. It's gonna be Senegal on the front, US in the back.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Why, why Senegal on the front, though?

• 1:43:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:04Speaker 03

  Well, the colors, the colors look nicer.

• 1:43:05Speaker 00

  Because, because I'm in the business of selling hope. And Senegal needs it.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  Senegal needs more hope. I like that. Even when it comes to soccer?

• 1:43:13Speaker 03

  No, America needs more hope. I guess, I guess Sadio Mane, come on, we need, we need all the hope.

• 1:43:17Mark Gagnon?

  We got better odds than them right now.

• 1:43:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, they got, you see, y'all got, bro, listen, the, the US team is so good this year. They're really good, bro. And mind you, just so you guys know, if people didn't know, there was a friendly match between Senegal and the US, and you guys beat us by one.

• 1:43:31Speaker 03

  Oh, alright, I didn't even know that.

• 1:43:34Speaker 00

  That says a fucking lot.

• 1:43:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:43:36Speaker 00

  I mean, we, we, we kinda wanted to build hope in the US team.

• 1:43:39Speaker 01

  Okay, I don't do that. Come on, bro.

• 1:43:41Speaker 00

  Because before the game, we wanted, you know, because the other one, come on, you guys, if we beat you before the show.

• 1:43:46Speaker 00

  I mean, come on, your hope. Like, we need to make sure that you guys make it to me. Like, make it to the finals so we can really play.

• 1:43:52Speaker 03

  Ah, okay. Well, I guess we'll see then.

• 1:43:54Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? But, yo, the US team is really good this year.

• 1:43:57Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:43:57Speaker 00

  Like, they make me nervous. I'm not gonna lie.

• 1:43:59Speaker 03

  See, you got me feeling hope, man. Yeah, you got me. You gave hope to all of us.

• 1:44:03Speaker 00

  I already know Sonny was gonna make it, but y'all make me feel nervous.

• 1:44:06Speaker 01

  Hey, Con, ladies and gentlemen. Hey, Con, thank you so much. Bro, no, that was awesome.

• 1:44:10Speaker 04

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.