Under Cover Upper East Sider (w/ Jill Kargman)

Writer, actress, and lifelong New Yorker Jill Kargman joins Haley to talk all things NYC. From fitting in with the Upper East Side moms, to the best facial, to the real cost of decorating your townhouse for Halloween. Financial Tea with Mrs. Dow Jones is a Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us at @sonypodcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Haley Sacks?

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• 0:41Haley Sacks?

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• 1:22Haley Sacks?

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• 2:07Speaker 01

  I mean, I always say Ivy had said, why are you the only mom at school without red bottoms on your shoes? She was like two. I didn't sell my TV show till I was 39. Getting a facelift is like getting a pedicure now.

• 2:21Haley Sacks?

  This is Financial Tea.

• 2:26Haley Sacks?

  What's up, sippers? Welcome back to Financial Tea. This is a podcast where I teach you how to build wealth with a side of market drama, money scandals, and of course, financial pop culture, because that's what we're all interested in, right? And today, we have my friend Jill Cargman in the house. She is a New York Times bestselling author. She's an actress. She's a New York icon. She's a filmmaker. She's an Upper East Sider. And most of all, she's here in the studio. So Jill, welcome to the Financial Tea.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Thank you, Haley. It's so exciting. And I love Brookles and I love Dumbo.

• 3:00Haley Sacks?

  I know, you're in Dumbo. It's crazy.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  The F train shits me out right in my neighborhood.

• 3:04Haley Sacks?

  I love it. I know. Pop on that. Yeah. Okay. So you're a public transport kind of gal.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Oh, I live on the subway.

• 3:11Haley Sacks?

  What do you think are the traps that people get in in New York City where they like overspend money? Like, obviously Uber. Yeah, Uber's the biggest one. Like, if I need to lean out finances, I'm cutting Uber.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Yep. I mean, I feel like there's certain transportation splurges, like maybe airfare and stuff like that. I love travel. That's my biggest splurge because I don't have a country house. So we travel all over the world. And that's where my money goes. Yeah. And I like, you hemorrhage money, but you're making, even though I'm a full Gen Xer, I'm 52, I have that millennial thing of experiential, like life choices. And that's my splurge, but rather than like acquiring shit.

• 3:49Haley Sacks?

  You're like, instead of the 401k, I want 401k memories.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. The memes before I'm like worms meat.

• 3:57Haley Sacks?

  Obsessed. So besides like cutting Uber, like what else do you do as a New Yorker? Because it's an expensive place to live and you're like so New York.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  It's really expensive.

• 4:04Haley Sacks?

  And we both grew up here.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I can't cut this out because it's such a big part of my life, but going to restaurants. I mean, we go to restaurants so much. I don't cook. We order in and that's actually like cheaper than groceries weirdly sometimes. But we love restaurants. And I'm not even like a huge drinker. I have one glass of wine or something. But you know, sometimes you get these bills and you're like, how is everyone in here doing this? Because they're 25 years old. I could be their mom, so I know why we're here. But like, the restaurants are packed. You can't get reservations. You have to like, blow somebody to get into these Instagram tables. And I just don't understand the economics, like how all these people, are they all trust them people? Like, I don't, I'm just confused. But anyway, I love going out to eat.

• 4:49Haley Sacks?

  I'm also so bad at restriction at restaurants where it's like, if I see three things on the appetizer, so I'm a nightmare to eat out with. And then it's like, I want to split the check because I feel like if you can't, like, if we're not going to split it, then why are we having dinner? Like, it's too, unless someone's really not drinking and not eating. Like, if I'm with a pregnant person.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  I know, but you're still young. I feel like at my age.

• 5:11Haley Sacks?

  You do, you don't split it?

• 5:12Speaker 01

  We always say, you go Dutch, you ain't much. Like, we'll pick up the check and they'll get it next time. I don't, I don't like, I just want to like, take care of it and we leave. Like, I like to slip my credit card and not have a thing. Like, when I'm going to pee, like three quarters through the meal, I'll slip my credit card. So we can just, when we're done, we get up and evaporate. And there's no weirdness. And then the next time, they just do it.

• 5:33Haley Sacks?

  Okay, love that. And then have you ever had the point where like, you're paying for them, but then they're not paying back for you and you felt like it was uneven?

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Sometimes, but they're artists or they're people that I don't think can afford it. And I don't even think about it. I don't want them to even worry or do the whole like, reach for the wallet weirdness. I just want to take care of it.

• 5:50Haley Sacks?

  I love that. I have friends like that who are comedians and it's like, I just always pay for them.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  That's right. Yeah. It's, you know what? They deserve to go out and enjoy things too. And I get so much joy from our friendship. And, you know, I entertain a lot at home for that reason, because I don't want people to feel weird about like contributing or something. And I don't hire fancy caterers. I just like order in from Tony's to Napoli, but I'm really into my tabletop. And I get all my flowers from the bodega and I just make it pretty. And it feels like an experience. And I don't, no one owes me. I think it's sort of a 70s thing of like, you have to reciprocate. Like, I don't care. I just want to live my life and enjoy my friends till I'm dead.

• 6:32Haley Sacks?

  Be around who you want to be around. And don't let like, who's making more.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  I don't keep score on anything.

• 6:36Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. And that also allows you to have inter-financial friendships, which actually people don't have.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Right, but I do.

• 6:44Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. So we always start with a few rapid fire questions.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Yes, ma'am. Okay.

• 6:48Haley Sacks?

  So what are your best and worst purchases of the week? And how much did each cost?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  This is so cunty, but my worst purchase was around the corner. I just had chili chicken. And I mean, chicken chili.

• 7:00Haley Sacks?

  Where?

• 7:00Speaker 01

  It was bad. I don't want to say because I don't like the meme, but I didn't like it.

• 7:04Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  And then, so I threw it out. That was a total waste. I think it was $8.

• 7:09Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  I feel more guilty about wasting the food than the money.

• 7:12Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Like, I'd rather just, yeah, it's a weird thing. What was the other part, component of the question?

• 7:18Haley Sacks?

  And then what's your best purchase of the week?

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Oh, I got this brown, brown is the new gray.

• 7:26Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, it is.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  I got a brown cashmere dress, just because I get really cold. And I usually just wear black, but I'm going as Connor Stories mole for Halloween.

• 7:34Haley Sacks?

  Oh, my God.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  You could, you already have the costume.

• 7:37Haley Sacks?

  Wow, Connor Stories mole. That's inspired.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  I like detail.

• 7:41Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, it's important to remember that heated rivalry was this year.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Oh, it fully was this year. And I'm obsessed with it. And my daughter Ivy and I benched it until five in the morning.

• 7:51Haley Sacks?

  How much, how much was the dress?

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Um, I feel like it was like, cheap, $2.80, something like that. I mean, cheap for cashmere.

• 8:00Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, cheaper cashmere.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  It was one of those like Blooming's brands.

• 8:02Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, of course. You know, 40 Carrots.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm a 40 Carrots addict. And when I was pregnant with each of the three kids, I thought they were just going to be like, a yogurt sculpture in a baby suit.

• 8:13Haley Sacks?

  So for those who don't know, at the Bloomingdale's in New York City, and this is very.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  The one on 59th Street, not Soho.

• 8:19Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, this is inside baseball. Like, you're listening to two born and bred New Yorkers.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:24Haley Sacks?

  40 Carrots is basically the cafeteria for those on the Upper East Side. It's within Bloomingdale's. You have to walk through the bedding department.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, wedding registry. Go up a little flight of stairs and then you will wait in line for 47 minutes if you go at prime time, which I do not.

• 8:40Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you can't. You gotta be smart about it.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  It's the best yogurt in New York. Fuck all these Instagram yogurteries and Mimi's and all this shit.

• 8:47Haley Sacks?

  No.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  It's all crap compared to 40 Carrots.

• 8:50Haley Sacks?

  Oh, and then my next rapid fire is how did you make your first dollar?

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Oh, I had a lemonade stand, except it was apple juice because I don't like lemonade. I sold apple juice at seven years old on Park Avenue and we didn't have a parent with us. My friend Dana Wallach and I just like made a little stand and we made a jingle. Wanna come buy some apple juice, apple juice. We like did a whole thing and everyone oh, and there was a whole thing in the eighties and seventies about like caffeine is bad. And we would go crisp and clean and no caffeine. And we did like a little dance, like the Rockettes. And people would be like, keep the change, kid. And we made $24 and we like went and spent it at Penny Whistle, which was a toy store on Madison Avenue. Yeah.

• 9:34Haley Sacks?

  That is heaven.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  So I wasn't a good saver like you. I should, I should have read your book.

• 9:38Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you should have read my book earlier, but you know what? You were born yet. So we both grew up on Upper East Side and you had a dad who was like a titan of industry. He was the president of Chanel. So I figured that we should start there because it's like, obviously the question on everyone's lips is, did you get free Chanel?

• 9:53Speaker 01

  He joined Chanel when I was nine. Before that, he was at Doyle Day and Bernbach, which is like the real Mad Ben Oh, wow. type agency. And he, you know, he was successful. He was vice president of the agency, but we lived in a rental apartment. We weren't really, I didn't think of myself as like captain of industry, scion or anything. I took the public bus spends. There were people at limousines, like I was, I would say I had a very grounded, down to earth childhood. If we rented at Blockbuster Video, they made us go in the rain to return it. So we didn't get charged the late fee. You know, we weren't like spoiled cunts at all.

• 10:30Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  When my dad joined Chanel, I would say I definitely was thrown into this new world. We were going on his business trips and going to fashion shows and all that. I did not get free Chanel. My mother did. But they would never give any to me because they said like, you're a kid. And when I, as the years went by and people turned 16 for sweet 16 gifts and got Chanel bags, my parents said, that's pathetic. You are not getting one until you're at least in your twenties. And these kids are going to have nothing to look forward to.

• 11:00Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Growing up on the Upper East Side, like there is so much early wealth with the kids where it's like,

• 11:06Speaker 01

  not my kids.

• 11:07Haley Sacks?

  That's good. But it's like, don't you see that with other kids there where it's like, like a little Birkin? Or I don't even know.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, they're like sixth grade, like the bat mitzvah gifts now are like Van Cleef, those Van Cleef Quatcher foil things. And, you know, I remember saying to my kids, I mean, I always say Ivy had said, why are you the only mom at school without red bottoms on your shoes? What she was like two and I couldn't believe she noticed that. I was sort of like proud of her powers of observation, but I was also horrified that we were raising them in this milieu that had so much conspicuous consumption. You know, I wasn't out to be their best friend. I was very strict about like, that's just not where I'm going to spend my money. And I'm not doing what the other moms do. I don't care what anyone's doing. That was sort of my thing. Do I seem like I care what everyone else is doing? And they just stopped.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  But in the beginning, there was a lot of like, why don't we go to the Hamptons? Why don't we, you know, so and so has a private jet. I was like, great, good for them.

• 12:06Haley Sacks?

  Well, what's so interesting about your career is that you've basically become this like cultural anthropologist or like undercover detective on Upper East Side where you are so embedded in the world. You were born and bred there and live there now, but you've also built this career satirizing it. So besides the, you know, private planes and the Van Cleef bat mitzvah gifts, what are some of the craziest things that you've witnessed in your time?

• 12:37Speaker 01

  So many. I mean, I've, I've heard crazy stories of people like having a broken Fendi shoe, an alligator shoe and sending the private jet to Europe with the, just the shoe to get fixed. I mean, like just obnoxious expenditures that are horrifying. I feel like a lot of entertaining has gone really over the top. And I understand if you're like a self-made billionaire or whatever, and you want to throw a party. I get, I don't judge that, by the way. Happy to go to it.

• 13:07Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  It's just not, I don't know, a lot of the things, I guess this is because of social media, but whether it's weddings, like I have friends who are event planners and they're like, everything's for the gram now. And so to me, that a little bit takes the soul out of like the point of a party.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  But yeah, I've seen Birkin collections that are 100 Birkins. I mean, I, I'm not a Birkin girl. I'd rather carry all my shit in my pockets. But I just feel like things feel a little over the top. And when, I mean, I'm older than you, but when I was growing up, it wasn't cool to be rich. Like it was, the, the rich girls had their limos drop them off before they got to school, like three blocks away. It was just that embarrassment of riches. And now I feel like everything is all about flaunting and posting the oval telltale private jets. And that's just not, I don't know, it's not my values.

• 13:56Haley Sacks?

  And it's also interesting, you talk about how things have changed.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 14:00Haley Sacks?

  Those wealth and spending trends, like what are other ones that you can point to over the years that you've seen really develop?

• 14:06Speaker 01

  I mean, just like, you know, birthday parties across the world. I'm trying to think of just like those, those, again, it feels like that Instagrammy thing of like fireworks at your, at your birthday.

• 14:18Haley Sacks?

  But it's also hard for, I think, like growing up on Upper East Side, at least for me, I feel like money, it's like in Sex and the City, New York's the fourth char, the fifth character. Like I felt like money was the fifth character a little bit where you sort, even if it's, you know, people have their limos drop them off around the block, you still sort of knew what was moving and shaking. And it was clear that you're in this town where money talks loud.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 14:43Haley Sacks?

  And that really does affect how you sort of perceive things. And now it's interesting because there's such a like Sephora-ification of the young girls.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, they all really were so into it.

• 14:53Haley Sacks?

  You know, back to your money story. So were there moments where you really were worrying about money? And what was sort of your progression? Because I mean, you got married young. Did that sort of give you some stability?

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:05Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  So from 20, I graduated college at 20.

• 15:09Haley Sacks?

  Okay, smart.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  I moved to New York and moved in with my parents. Then I'd moved in with a boyfriend, moved back in with my parents. And I finally got my own apartment at 24. And then Harry moved in at 26 with me. But I would say those four years I was making, so my first job at Interview Magazine, I made 18,000. My first year, so I couldn't afford my own apartment. That's why I lived with my mom and dad. Then it sort of like went up through the years into like the thirties. And then I went to MTV and was making more money and the internet was starting. Sounds so old, but it was like the dawn of the internet. And I was copywriting for Ralph Lauren and I got a lot more jobs as a freelancer. I was writing for magazines and I just juggled kind of all of that.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  But it really wasn't until, I guess, my thirties that I felt a little better. But then you have all the tuitions, you have like, then when you have kids. So yes, I had the stability of the two income household for a while. And I didn't feel pressure when we had one kid. But three years later, we shout out the other two, like right back to back Irish twins.

• 16:15Haley Sacks?

  That'll change everything.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Then it became, because I didn't have a nanny or a housekeeper, a baby nurse for the first. Then I needed help.

• 16:22Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  So I just felt like every dollar I made went flying out. I guess it's just like so much easier now that the kids are old. I feel like now, I guess I only feel like fully settled recently.

• 16:36Haley Sacks?

  In your financial life?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Yes, because I feel like

• 16:38Haley Sacks?

  Because you can actually hold on to money for yourself versus spending it towards the family.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 16:46Speaker 02

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• 17:44Haley Sacks?

  As listeners know, I grew up with no financial literacy. My dad was in finance, but there was truly no education around money. And in my twenties, I really felt that gap and wanted to change it. And that is how Mrs. Dow Jones came to be. This is why I love the personal finance app, Monarch. My financial picture is now the clearest it has ever been thanks to Monarch's tracking and tools. And it just takes the mental load of tracking finances off your plate while making sure you stay on track. Monarch is like having a financial planner in your pocket. It helps you set goals, map out big purchases and provides easy to read diagrams to help you visualize where your money goes each month. I love using Monarch's AI assistant to ask questions about my finances

• 18:26Haley Sacks?

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• 18:45Haley Sacks?

  But what I also think is interesting is like you, you met Harry at 25, but you got married at 27. But before that, you were engaged twice.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:52Haley Sacks?

  And talk about sort of those gut feelings around those relationships and how you sort of knew that they were wrong.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Well, my parents, my dad died almost two years ago and they were married for, thank you, it's so hard. I miss them so much. They were married for 54 years. So I had a lot of kind of pressure. I really wanted to get it right. And I did kind of grow up in this bubble where my parents had really traditional roles in the marriage. My dad was the breadwinner. My mom was very domestic, incredible chef and did all that homemaker stuff. And that was not going to be me. And so I needed, I wanted like the equal partnership, but also wanted to stay married for 54 years. So it was, I don't know, I just was like a cold feet person and I wasn't sure until I met Harry.

• 19:40Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, but maybe you also felt a little bit like you had to belong to them a bit more versus like having this freedom with Harry.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  I needed freedom and Harry gives me that because like you, he has a life. He's busy. He has 650 employees. He's flying around the world, like doing shit. Now I can go because I don't, I'm an empty nester. But you know, for years I'd be like, okay, I'm going to hold down the fort. You go. But I didn't really, I didn't sell my TV show till I was 39. So I was really like home for 11 years with them.

• 20:10Haley Sacks?

  But what's interesting though, is Harry is a, you know, titan of industry, has this big job.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  He is now. He wasn't in the beginning. He's an entrepreneur. So when I met him, he had 12 employees. At one point it went down to four and now he has almost 700.

• 20:25Haley Sacks?

  Okay. Wow. Okay. Cause I was going to say, how is that possible that you have three kids in New York and you're stressed about money, but you have a big income coming in?

• 20:33Speaker 01

  It's so expensive.

• 20:34Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. How much do you think it costs per year to raise all those kids?

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Well, the schools are like 60,000 or something, but then you also are expected to donate.

• 20:43Haley Sacks?

  To get them into the school.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  No, no, just like, once you're a parent, like just to look, like some people can't afford the tuition and you want them to have scholarships. And you, you need to like pay the gap.

• 20:54Haley Sacks?

  How much would you donate?

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Well, the gap, it depends each school, but they sort of do the economics and say like, there is a deficit per kid. You know, that's like 12,000. So we would try to cover the gap.

• 21:06Haley Sacks?

  And like roughly, how much do you think it costs per year to have, like with the gap, with the tuition, with the nannies and the after school activities and all of this?

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Not you. I'm bad at math. I don't know, but it was a lot because the nannies, like I had one nanny and I had a housekeeper when I had my third. I needed like full time help.

• 21:26Haley Sacks?

  I have a housekeeper now. I have no kids.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  It was just, those years were so financially draining.

• 21:31Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  And we travel a lot and all, I mean, it was like, a lot of it was our choice and not necessity, but I felt always stressed about money. It's weird, even though you can live in New York and be successful, you can also feel poor.

• 21:46Haley Sacks?

  No, it's the craziest city in the world. Like I think it could make anyone feel broke. Okay. But New York, we need your black book just really quickly. This will be another rapid fire. Like I feel like you definitely have the best recommendations.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  I do.

• 21:58Haley Sacks?

  Can you give us the best, I'm going to give you, I'm going to say something and then you say the go to place for that thing.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Okay. If, if I can.

• 22:06Haley Sacks?

  Okay. Best facial?

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Georgia Louise.

• 22:09Haley Sacks?

  Best blowout?

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Julian Farrell.

• 22:13Haley Sacks?

  Best workout class?

• 22:14Speaker 01

  I don't work out class.

• 22:16Haley Sacks?

  Or like trainer?

• 22:17Speaker 01

  I don't train.

• 22:18Haley Sacks?

  Okay. Best exercise?

• 22:20Speaker 01

  My mom's basement.

• 22:21Haley Sacks?

  Okay. Love. Best place to have lunch with a girlfriend?

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Maxims.

• 22:26Haley Sacks?

  Best place to have dinner with your friends?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Ops Pizza.

• 22:31Haley Sacks?

  Best place to shop?

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Dear Rivington?

• 22:36Haley Sacks?

  Best place for botox?

• 22:39Speaker 01

  Dr. Amy Wexler.

• 22:40Haley Sacks?

  Okay. Slay. What, and did you have anything that you're gatekeeping that you need to tell?

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Oh, and the cast, I would do the cast because I buy so much there.

• 22:47Haley Sacks?

  Okay. Love that. So you know, you mentioned just now that you sold your first TV show at 39, which I think is really inspiring for people who are listening. Because you know, you'd been a writer for so long, then you had all these kids, but you kept going and your career broke like later than I think people would.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Much.

• 23:04Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, much later, which is amazing. Like there's, does it, why is there a time limit on things? And so why?

• 23:10Speaker 01

  I would actually argue also that it's healthier psychologically because you don't give a shit at 39. You're already fully formed. You know, I was married. I had my kids. I had my life. I had my friends. If you're on a red carpet, getting like analyzed to death and cut into pieces and you're 23 years old or whatever these young actresses are. I just think that'll be really hard.

• 23:31Haley Sacks?

  That you could like handle it at your age.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Whereas like, I didn't care.

• 23:34Haley Sacks?

  So the, the show that you sold, how much did you sell it for?

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Well, I was the writer and actress in it. So I was a creator. So it's not like you sell it the way you sell a movie and get one big paycheck. It's like, you'll get like 120,000 per, like for writing the episodes, then you get, well, I, I got paid so much less because I hadn't acted. So I had no quotes. So I think I got like 15,000 an episode and then every, like the stars all got like 25,000 because they just had more experience. So it was you, they, you work your way up to like quotes. You know what I mean?

• 24:13Haley Sacks?

  And then how much did they pay you for the IP?

• 24:16Speaker 01

  I don't know. I feel like my agents.

• 24:19Haley Sacks?

  Jill, what we're learning today on the financial team.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  It's really bad. No, this is my point. Okay. When I met you, I do not know my numbers and I have like a great lawyer and a great team at CAA.

• 24:30Haley Sacks?

  So you trust blindly?

• 24:31Speaker 01

  I trust blindly. CAA.

• 24:33Haley Sacks?

  Oh my gosh.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  They do all my stuff.

• 24:35Haley Sacks?

  I'm worried. We need to, we need to make sure they're dropping their eyes.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  They're not like stealing my stuff like Billy Joel's brother in law or something.

• 24:43Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. But it even happened to Rihanna.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Well, I am lucky because Harry goes over contracts and stuff and speaks legalese and does all that, but no one's hosed me.

• 24:52Haley Sacks?

  We hope not.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  I promise.

• 24:54Haley Sacks?

  But we're sad that you have no numbers, but it's because you don't know the numbers.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  No sense of, I can barely balance the checkbook. Like I'm very, I'm very disorganized.

• 25:04Haley Sacks?

  Okay. But let's now dive into the mom cult of the Upper East Side because this is a real thing. It actually scares me because I want to live up there, but I am scared to live up there because I'm scared of the moms.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Don't be scared. Here's the weird thing as a native that I can explain to you is like, first of all, I think native New Yorkers have a special aura and a superpower. Where we have thicker crocodile skin and shit won't really get to us. It just on one level seems like a scene, but you have to stop and say, it's New York. There's a million scenes and I just, I'm focused on my little Kargman five. I don't give a shit about what everyone else is doing. However, because you want to be a present mom in the school, and especially if you have daughters, like my son didn't give a shit if I was friends with the moms. But my daughters would say, are you going to Suzie's mommy's birthday party? You know?

• 25:55Speaker 01

  And so these moms would have a sit down lunch for 14 people, like all the time. So and so's birthday lunch, paperless posts flying all over the fucking place. Like meet at this plate, meet at Lagaloo for a table for 16 and they're having like a rosé lunch, which I can't do because I'm working and I can't be shitfaced. Writing my article or whatever. And, and then you're like all splitting it and Venmoing everybody $200, but you're funding their rosé.

• 26:22Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  And then there's also the group gift component where they're like, Venmo me 250 and then they present her with like a fucking Chanel bag at the table.

• 26:31Haley Sacks?

  Stop.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  It just got so crazy. Honestly, Haley, that I was like, I can't do these lunches anymore because I don't want to do them. It's just, it's a time suck. I don't really do lunch.

• 26:41Haley Sacks?

  Oh, I don't do lunch at all.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  I, I just like eat on my keyboard.

• 26:44Haley Sacks?

  No, me too.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  And so I didn't, it felt like something that I should do that I didn't want to do. And I just stopped, but I did it for many years. And that's a huge money flying out of your wallet thing. Cause you have the, you know, $150 pre fees plus tax, plus everything. It winds up being like $200.

• 27:02Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  And then the group gift, you're like giving 1/16 of an Hermes tote or whatever the fuck. And I just, I'm not even having quality time because it's so many women. I'd rather be, I'm always better one on one. I don't like group meals. And they also take like three hours.

• 27:19Haley Sacks?

  Too long.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Too long.

• 27:21Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. That's so interesting. I also feel like it's, you're almost like paying a subscription cost to this group that you don't even want to be part of. And you know, you were working while you were this mom, you know, on the Upper East Side, like you had.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  I was and I wasn't. I didn't have a full time job. So like there were the moms who were brain surgeons or Wall Street analysts or whatever it was. And I feel like I always somehow was cast as a double agent. I never went to anybody, but they would come to me and say, oh, thank God we're working moms. These stay at home moms are so pathetic. All they do is lunch and gossip and spend money. It's so depressing. And I was like, just listening to this because I think a lot of the working moms did have a little guilt. And so they tried to make the other side look bad. Then those people will be like, oh, there's Suzie Wall Street running off, missing everything. How sad to work and miss these precious years. It's just so, it's just so sad. Why even have kids? And I was, I, I didn't really chime into either side. I was just listening because that's what I do.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  But I felt like I see what both sides are saying and I was kind of just in the middle, but I was always around. So I felt more like a stay at home mom.

• 28:28Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. But because you had like freedom because you were just, you were writing.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Well, writing. So I would write when they're napping or when they're at school or at night when they're in bed with a glass of wine or whatever. But I primarily felt like a stay at home mom and I had some of the trapped feelings of that too. Where Harry got to go to the office and I was jealous sort of, because I felt like he had a whole adult day. And he would come home and be like, how was your day? You went to that birthday party. Was it fun? And I would say, fun? It was a two year old's birthday party. I had three kids. I have cake smeared all over me. Like I'm exhausted. I just bathed them.

• 29:00Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  I did, you know, and, and I was like jealous of him. Cause I felt like, I remember one time I probably was on the Godfather day of my period. And I broke down sobbing and was like, I have dreams too. And I went to good schools too.

• 29:12Haley Sacks?

  Oh my God.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  I'm just like here, you know, and he really supported me when at 39, it was kind of felt like, okay, it's, it's my turn.

• 29:20Haley Sacks?

  It's your turn.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:21Haley Sacks?

  How old were your kids at that point?

• 29:24Speaker 01

  They were like 11, 11, eight and five. It was when my son went to kindergarten. No, he was six and a half. He, when he went to kindergarten, I started pitching the show and I think it aired when he was in first grade, I think. That's the light at the end of the tunnel for the, any moms listening.

• 29:40Haley Sacks?

  Sixth grade?

• 29:40Speaker 01

  No, just when your baby's in first grade.

• 29:42Haley Sacks?

  Okay. Yeah. Something to look forward to.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:45Haley Sacks?

  I love that.

• 29:49Speaker 02

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• 30:47Haley Sacks?

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• 31:48Haley Sacks?

  What would you tell moms who are looking to maintain their careers or maybe start a new career while raising children?

• 31:53Speaker 01

  I think you have to just convince yourself that it's never too late. And also, if you're a stay at home mom and you're playing on the carpet and you're exhausted and you, you know, I had moments where I was like, I am so brain dead. I'm not saying all women feel this way, but I felt like I'm so tired and brain dead. Maybe my best creative years were behind me because I can't even function. All I wanted to do was go to sleep. Like there were days I woke up that I was, I thought like, I would look at my bed like, see you at night, I guess. I'm just, I was so bone weary.

• 32:26Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  That I couldn't even fathom a moment of feeling fast and quick and badass again. But it's not true. It's not true. Once they are launched and you put yourself in a milieu that is challenging and exciting or you're starting something, you get it back.

• 32:42Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, Stella gets her group back. You know, something that I do think about though, that you've done so well is like, you're someone who I look at as like very glamorous and beautiful and like.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  So funny. I feel so not glamorous.

• 32:52Haley Sacks?

  Oh, really? I'm like Jill Kargman. I feel like you're like a name brand of like, okay, like there's a woman who like has like wit and looks and fashion and like.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Oh, that's so nice. I feel like I'm a slob sometimes. I think it's because I don't wear pants. So everyone thinks I'm dressed up all the time, but I'm really not.

• 33:07Haley Sacks?

  But I also want to talk to you though about like beauty and cosmetic work because you look amazing and there's obviously a price tag to that.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:15Haley Sacks?

  And so what would you say? Well, I mean, not that you know any numbers, but like, how much do you think that you spend on beauty per year and what's worth it?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  The facials are so expensive, but so worth it. Yeah. There's like a menu.

• 33:27Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  So you can do like add-ons of all kinds of stuff. Um, I also get Botox like pretty regularly because I have a fabulous, I would say four times a year.

• 33:38Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  I have a fast metabolism, so it really, no, it gets, it's good for maybe food.

• 33:44Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  But it's not good for Botox. It makes it go away like really fast. So the money kind of will fly out the window that way. What else? Well, I do like lip tattoos.

• 33:55Haley Sacks?

  Oh, really?

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Well, now I'm wearing lipstick over it because you look so pretty. So I just like shoved some on in the shitter, but I have tattooed eyeliner.

• 34:04Haley Sacks?

  Who did, who did that?

• 34:06Speaker 01

  I did it at JJ Eyelashes.

• 34:08Haley Sacks?

  Did it kill?

• 34:09Speaker 01

  Kill. I took a pain pill and then now I do this procedure called.

• 34:14Haley Sacks?

  Wait, so that's all this down here is?

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:16Haley Sacks?

  Tattooed. So you always.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  Yes, tattooed. I wake up. I wake up like this.

• 34:20Haley Sacks?

  Whoa.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  And then I do this new procedure. I have my little scarf.

• 34:23Haley Sacks?

  People love the soft wave.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 34:25Haley Sacks?

  How much is it?

• 34:26Speaker 01

  It's $4,600.

• 34:28Haley Sacks?

  Per sesh?

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Per sesh.

• 34:29Haley Sacks?

  So they're really taking us to the cleaner and you have to do like six sessions?

• 34:33Speaker 01

  You're supposed to do three.

• 34:34Haley Sacks?

  Three, but like.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  But I, I'm going, I'm overdue, but it's, I just feel like your neck ages faster. I mean, Georgia and I are good friends and she tells me the truth and she'll say to you, like, she said, your, your neck is seven years older than your face. Like, we need to like step this up and I'm so glad, like I have complete trust with her. And I'm so glad because it's better.

• 34:55Haley Sacks?

  So, so you're doing the soft wave?

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. My neck is still a little bit my face, but like, I don't really care.

• 35:01Haley Sacks?

  It's like Nora Ephron. I feel bad about my neck.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  I'll probably do like a neck lift one day.

• 35:05Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Like, have you gone under the knife?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. I did an eye job and I had a double mastectomy and then I redid those implants because they were recalled for causing cancer. I don't fucking know. That's been, my boobs have been like a whole odyssey.

• 35:19Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Because I have a bad Jewish gene. Um, so yeah, I've had actually three surgeries on my boobs.

• 35:26Haley Sacks?

  And how much? I mean, they probably.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Those were a fortune.

• 35:28Haley Sacks?

  How much was that?

• 35:30Speaker 01

  You have to ask Harry because he handled all the insurance.

• 35:33Haley Sacks?

  The numbers. She comes on financial to you guys. I'm trying.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  I'm so bad. Harry explained to me that the insurance, because of course I picked like this expensive Park Avenue cosmetic surgeon to do it. They, the insurance companies are pure evil and they do this like fair and customary reimbursement, but they're reimbursing you for like a West Virginia person in a strip mall, not a Park Avenue clinician. So whatever we got back was a fraction of what we paid, you know?

• 35:59Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you had to.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  It sucks.

• 36:00Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. You got the, you got the first class seat, but they were paying for economy.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 36:05Haley Sacks?

  You had to pay a little different.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 36:06Haley Sacks?

  So we don't really have an idea of the numbers of what it takes to be Jill Kargman, but we know that she looks good and she'd be swiping that card at Georgia on the.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Really big splurge. That's worth it. Harry goes on October 1st. I mean, I'm sorry, August 1st, we call it October. That's when Home Depot releases their skeletons and all their like Halloween decorations. And we like broke the internet. Like there was a shortage nationwide of the 12 foot skeletons and it's because Harry Kargman bought them for me and our entire house, we staged, we like hired this team to make them all look like they were breaking into our house. So we had skeletons like smashing our window and climbing up and then one hanging from a noose and one on the chimney and we became like TikTok famous.

• 36:48Haley Sacks?

  Oh, you had one of those people who like comes and does like the pumpkin setup, but then also can do the like crazy.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  We do the pumpkins. Like we do all that, but they do all the shit that involves like scaling the house.

• 36:58Haley Sacks?

  Do you have a townhouse?

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:00Haley Sacks?

  Oh, because this is a whole, this is interesting.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:02Haley Sacks?

  Because there's a whole thing to this on the Upper East Side.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  And I.

• 37:05Haley Sacks?

  There's like a responsibility. It's almost like.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  It's like a community.

• 37:08Haley Sacks?

  If you're going to have a townhouse, you have to decorate that side of the townhouse.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 37:12Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  And people come up to us and say, thank you for doing it because my kid, I'll use it to bribe my toddler. Like we won't go buy the fun house if you're not good. But we have animatronic like Jack and Sally from Nightmare Before Christmas. We have like scary monsters with cleavers. We have severed hands and feet like on the spikes of our gate. We go all out. It's basically like Staten Island people.

• 37:34Haley Sacks?

  How much does it cost to hire those people?

• 37:35Speaker 01

  A lot. Like, I want to say like two or 3,000.

• 37:40Haley Sacks?

  And.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  But we have all the shit in our basement.

• 37:42Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Like we don't do a whole new scape every year.

• 37:45Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  We, we use the same stuff, but we do it differently. But my son, who is now in college, but he used to be the one like designing it with them and saying what he wanted. Like he was, he's the imaginative one.

• 37:56Haley Sacks?

  And when do you have to put it up?

• 37:58Speaker 01

  October like 9th, I think we're doing it.

• 38:00Haley Sacks?

  Oh my gosh. Okay. This is like literally a whole.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  No, it's a whole thing and our whole block, what's so great about our block is everyone now has risen to the occasion. It used to just be us and now one by one, we have new nice neighbors on my one side.

• 38:14Haley Sacks?

  Congrats. That's hard to get in this town.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, we don't have it on the other side.

• 38:18Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  But they just like have fun with it too. And they've become our friends and then across the street and we all just like love it. And now people, there are these like maps that will say where to go and it's always.

• 38:30Haley Sacks?

  Oh my gosh.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Our street. It's so charming and cute. It makes it feel like a little suburb.

• 38:34Haley Sacks?

  That's so funny. Yeah. There, I went, I went viral on TikTok once doing a tour of the Upper East Side of those.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  No way.

• 38:40Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Cause I was like, there's rich and then there's decorating your townhouse for Halloween, rich, getting someone to decorate your townhouse for Halloween, rich.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Those levels.

• 38:47Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. No, you do. You have someone outside.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  No, no, I know. But those people.

• 38:50Haley Sacks?

  Oh, I know.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Are like 25,000.

• 38:52Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  And they switch up all the decorations every year. Like, so they'll design a whole scape and then they bring in all the new shit and then throw it away. Whereas we have our same guys. We just maneuver it differently.

• 39:03Haley Sacks?

  Mm hmm. I love that. Um.

• 39:07Haley Sacks?

  Do you, when it comes to the Upper East Side, what do you think is normalized when it comes to taking care of like beauty and cosmetic surgery?

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Like I just heard the, someone just told me getting a facelift is like getting a pedicure now.

• 39:19Haley Sacks?

  Stop.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Which I thought was so funny. I was like, not really. But anyway, someone just said that. Yeah, I feel like a lot of people are talking about plastic surgery and injectables as maintenance rather than like something you decide to do. It's, it's just not, doesn't seem like as big a deal. I've picked up so many friends from procedures that I don't really think of it as a big deal and they look totally normal now. I think in the olden days, people looked really pulled and scary. Like I would do it. I'm definitely like open to it, I would say. But more in like little things, like my, my eyes, I recovered so fast.

• 39:54Haley Sacks?

  Do you think it's awkward when you are earning money though, but you're like an Upper East Side mom to ask, I guess, like your partner, your husband for the money to pay for the cosmetic surgery? Like I always, that's, I love having my own money. I'm not married, but like I, I'll always have my own money just because I don't like asking anyone for anything. So it's like, if I was like getting, and I will go under the knife, but it's like, I don't want to have to ask anyone.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  I don't know the answer to that. I feel like every marriage is different, but some people might say, look, I had four pregnancies and I'm, I'm exhausted and I just want this refreshed and it will, you look, and you could say to your husband, like, you look so young and fabulous. And some of us have to work at it and women don't necessarily age as well. And it would just make me feel refreshed and quote unquote sweat equity.

• 40:42Haley Sacks?

  That's so good. Okay.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know how it works. I'm just like saying, but.

• 40:47Haley Sacks?

  So like with your friends though, because it sounds like you don't really know about numbers or like talk about numbers.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Never to talk about money with my friends. It's actually fascinating.

• 40:55Haley Sacks?

  I'm getting that vibe from you.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Never. Like I, my best friend, we'll say like, what is that? Those, they live in a triple X apartment on Fifth Avenue. What does that, what does something like that cost? And we might Google it or something because we're just curious, but that's really my only friend I talk about money with.

• 41:11Haley Sacks?

  And like with everyone else, it's just sort of like a unspoken.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I feel like I was raised, we just didn't talk about it. Maybe that was like a seventies thing.

• 41:21Haley Sacks?

  No, that was, I mean, that's how I was raised too. I think my.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  But I have like a problem because I, it was so ingrained with me that when I was a freelancer and I would file a invoice for $3,600 and I didn't hear back for a month. I felt like dirty and filthy writing them again, asking just for what was due. And it just made me feel like I was shaking a cup on the corner and I was some kind of like prostitute. I hated asking for what was due and it's a problem because Harry would have no problem being like, hi, this invoice is overdue and you owe us this.

• 41:54Haley Sacks?

  With your daughters, how do you teach them how to not have that feeling?

• 41:57Speaker 01

  To do the opposite of me. I said, as soon as you file the story, my, I have a daughter who's a writer. As soon as you file the story, you file the invoice, this is it. Here's my thing. You, you need to follow up just like a guy would.

• 42:10Haley Sacks?

  Interesting. Yeah, that's such a normal thing though, for women. We always just feel sort of grateful to have even been invited or to have like been allowed to write the article.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:20Haley Sacks?

  You know, it's like a man could never have your voice or you know what I mean? Like it's a perspective that's so uniquely you and female and all these things. And so we end up just, yeah, sort of apologizing for wanting more, even asking for what's ours.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  That's it. And I always feel gross about it. Like to this day.

• 42:35Haley Sacks?

  There's nothing to feel gross about though. Do you think that it was like how you grew up? Like in your family, it was not ever talked about?

• 42:41Speaker 01

  I think it was the seventies in general. I don't know. Like New York was bankrupt. People.

• 42:47Haley Sacks?

  Women could barely have any financial independence. 1974, we were able to get our first card.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  I was born.

• 42:52Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, that year you were born.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  I was born when women could get credit cards.

• 42:55Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  But um, our car was smashed all the time, our windows for the radio, you know, like it was not a great time in New York. So I think people really kept it low profile, anything, but I just, I just remember saying, we don't talk about money.

• 43:12Haley Sacks?

  So even now, like when you, like you're not fighting for your financial independence. You're really just working for your creative freedom and like to like have.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:21Haley Sacks?

  To express yourself.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  I mean, we're in my marriage, we're very much like a team now. It's been so long. I've been with him more than I've been without him.

• 43:29Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  So it's more just like a pot, but yes, creatively I will turn down stuff all the time.

• 43:35Haley Sacks?

  So it's like his money is, is your money and then your money is your money.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 43:39Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, got it. Okay. So I know that Drew Barrymore is your former sister-in-law.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:45Haley Sacks?

  But also like you collaborate with her. It's so fun. You're two.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  I'm so lucky. Both my brother's wives are like my favorite people.

• 43:51Haley Sacks?

  I love your brother's current wife, by the way.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  She's the greatest.

• 43:54Haley Sacks?

  She's really the cutest girl in the world. We're friends on Instagram.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  I love her.

• 43:58Haley Sacks?

  Um, so, but what is it like being family members with Drew Barrymore?

• 44:03Speaker 01

  It's exactly what you would think. She's like, really? One of the only celebrities I met where there's no gap between what people see and what is kind of, she's just like exactly that sprite person that you would think.

• 44:15Haley Sacks?

  I love it.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  She's really chill. She's not, you know, fancy. She just, she just is very herself.

• 44:23Haley Sacks?

  Do you have to see her separate from your, like if you like are so close with her?

• 44:27Speaker 01

  We all had dinner with Ally and Drew last, last weekend for my niece's birthday.

• 44:31Haley Sacks?

  Oh, amazing. Yeah. So it's like so.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  It's very blended.

• 44:34Haley Sacks?

  I love that.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:35Haley Sacks?

  Um, do you have like a favorite Drew story? Cause she's, I mean, she's also financially empowered.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Very.

• 44:41Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Um, favorite Drew story? Oh my God. Okay. Well, this is, this is mean, but this one, people like stop her everywhere we go.

• 44:51Haley Sacks?

  She's so famous.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  And they'll start crying. Like this woman in Bloomingdale's, we went for 40 carrots.

• 44:56Haley Sacks?

  Of course.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  We were walking on the kids floor and this woman started crying as if she was all four Beatles. And was just like, oh my God, I had divorced at the same time and I also like entered rehab. And it was like her entire story. And Drew's just so nice looking at her with her big eyes and like gave her a hug and, but this now happens every time. So I'll just now every time I'm, we were with my niece shopping and I'll look at Olive and I'm like, get the hook, get the hook. Cause she's too nice to be like, well, it was great meeting you and walk away. So it'll, we'll just be like 12 minutes going by. So I look at Olive and we have our, our facepalm moment. And then Olive will go in and be like, mom, I have to go. Cause I don't want to be like the Sean Penn one being like, excuse her.

• 45:40Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  So no pictures, but.

• 45:43Haley Sacks?

  And she doesn't want to do it too. Cause it's like.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  She's too nice to say.

• 45:46Haley Sacks?

  And people are, will remember that, like you want to have them remember the moment perfectly with you. So you need the third party to be like, you have a call right now.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Her kid is the third party. I mean, I don't want to, I've done it before. When she had nobody to do it, I'll do it, but.

• 46:01Haley Sacks?

  These people don't know when to walk away.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  She's so nice. I know. And she'll, they'll say, please, can I take a picture? And she'll be like, okay. You know, she's just down.

• 46:09Haley Sacks?

  Okay, cutie. Um, okay. Also I love that you hate Birkins.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  I really do.

• 46:14Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. I'm anti Birkin as well. Can you, like, why do we hate them?

• 46:19Speaker 01

  So it's not like the shape or that they're boring and.

• 46:22Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, they're pretty bags.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  I just think they're fine, but it's the process by which you have to gargle someone's balls at air mass to get the privilege to be let in to buy a $60,000 thing.

• 46:33Haley Sacks?

  It's an MLM.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 46:35Haley Sacks?

  Um, multi-level marketing scheme.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:38Haley Sacks?

  Like where it's like, you have to like buy the product and then sell it to people. Like it's like.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  I don't need to beg for the privilege of buying a fucking bag. Just like I don't wait in line for Goyard or anything.

• 46:48Haley Sacks?

  Or frozen yogurt.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  It's New York. There's another bag of yogurt place around the corner. I don't beg to do any of that shit.

• 46:55Haley Sacks?

  That's native New Yorker shit. When you, that's like the most tourist thing I've ever seen. And I'll just want to end with, is there like anything that you've always wanted to get asked besides all my questions about money? That you haven't and that you've always wanted to answer? We can.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Well, one thing that I've been thinking about recently is death. And I feel like a lot of people have said to me like, you are so morbid and you, why are you so obsessed with death? And you have all these skulls and you have all these things. And I really want to reiterate this study from, I think it was Stanford, a bunch of years ago, that actually my rabbi told us about. And she's my age. We went to college together.

• 47:34Haley Sacks?

  Which synagogue did you go to?

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Central synagogue. Angela booked all, the most morbid people in the world are the happiest. And I really think it's because when you are aware of your mortality, you don't sweat the small stuff. And you just filch the joy out of life every day and you're not freaking out about nonsense. And what this person said in a comment or what that group of moms is doing or whatever, you just don't care. It's all about reframing it as like death is the prism through which you can enjoy your life.

• 48:01Haley Sacks?

  I love that.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  I know. And people don't get that. Like I'm actually like the happiest person. I, I really am the happiest person I know. And my Instagram is very doom and gloom. Because I feel like you have to, you have to, that's like the, the glasses that you have to watch life through.

• 48:18Haley Sacks?

  That everything could end.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does.

• 48:20Haley Sacks?

  But that also is hard financially because that causes people to be so yolo.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Yolo.

• 48:24Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. So you have to play on a little, play on like you are.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  When you have kids, you want to save for them.

• 48:29Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  You want to have a nest day. Yeah. Get them the grab. Just learn what that was.

• 48:33Haley Sacks?

  There's a lot of, that'll be my next book, all about how to pass money on to your heirs. Cause it's hard.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  It's hard.

• 48:38Haley Sacks?

  Got to use that gift tax.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 48:40Haley Sacks?

  Set them up. Okay. Love it. Death for, death.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Death for breakfast.

• 48:44Haley Sacks?

  Death for breakfast. Maybe that's your next movie.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:47Haley Sacks?

  Oh wait, do you have anything you want to plug?

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Well, actually my next movie is Sprinkle Glitter on My Grave. It's based on one of my books.

• 48:52Haley Sacks?

  Even better.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Influenced, well, it's out now on Apple and Amazon, but I think it's for rental, but it's going to be free on Peacock in December.

• 49:00Haley Sacks?

  It's so good.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  If you want to save your $3.99, like a good financial person.

• 49:05Haley Sacks?

  Joel's whole catalog of work is amazing. If you need like a really smart, interesting brain to just get inside.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  I'm on Amazon Peacock.

• 49:14Haley Sacks?

  I encourage everyone to go down the Canon of, because you've such a sharp perspective. It is. It's the Joel Carmen Canon. And we all need to be a part of it.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 49:23Haley Sacks?

  Um, thank you. And thank you sippers for listening. Please rate, subscribe, review. We read every review. We're so grateful. It really helps the show and see you next Thursday and of course, stay rich.

• 49:43Speaker 04

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop. Because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces. So I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out. Knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.