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Thou Shalt Commit Adultery.
The Reformation (Part Three)
The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened.
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Chapters:
00:00 - He Is The Architect
04:54 - Boom AI
10:01 - It’s Their Harvest
14:29 - Men Love Stats
18:57 - He’s A White Slave
25:56 - Knox Is Immodium
29:11 - The First Emo
36:47 - Awooo!
40:30 - The Worst Bible
44:09 - We’re All Jackie Weaver
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Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.
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1:12 Speaker 02 Welcome back to Fin vs. History. Joining me is Horatio Gould.
1:15 Speaker 03 Hello.
1:15 Speaker 02 And this is an urgent discussion on Calvin, Knox, and our true intellectual heirs.
1:22 Speaker 03 Yeah, but when you say urgent, you mean that this is...
1:25 Speaker 02 Urgent, I need to get this out.
1:26 Speaker 03 All right, okay.
1:27 Speaker 02 I'm fired up.
1:28 Speaker 03 Yeah, you're on the toilet. It's been 17 hours. You need to get this out.
1:31 Speaker 02 I need to talk about John Knox.
1:33 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:33 Speaker 02 And John Calvin.
1:35 Speaker 03 This has really fired you up.
1:36 Speaker 02 This is.
1:36 Speaker 03 In between these episodes, you were rifling through it. You were giggling to yourself. You're giddy, you're like a madman.
1:42 Speaker 02 This is my heritage.
1:43 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:43 Speaker 02 This is my psychological architecture.
1:45 Speaker 03 Right.
1:46 Speaker 02 He is the architect. You know the end of The Matrix where he meets the architect?
1:49 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:49 Speaker 02 That's me meeting John Calvin.
1:51 Speaker 03 Because this is only a little bit of me. So it's only, it only explains a very small part of me. But for you, this is, this is everything.
1:57 Speaker 02 This is all of me.
1:59 Speaker 02 I read John Calvin and I just, it all makes sense.
2:01 Speaker 03 Right.
2:02 Speaker 02 With part three of our series on the Reformation, we've dealt with Martin Luther.
2:06 Speaker 03 Done.
2:06 Speaker 02 Done.
2:07 Speaker 03 We've dealt with him.
2:08 Speaker 02 Done.
2:08 Speaker 03 Sounds like we've killed him.
2:09 Speaker 02 We've killed Luther. Now, the peace of Augsburg is where we left off last time.
2:15 Speaker 02 An easy truce between Lutherans and Catholics, but it left out Calvinism. Now, who, what, why?
2:27 Speaker 03 Calvin and the chipmunks.
2:28 Speaker 02 It's Calvin and the chipmunks.
2:31 Speaker 02 Jean Calvin, unbelievably, he's French.
2:34 Speaker 03 I couldn't believe it.
2:36 Speaker 02 I still can't believe this.
2:37 Speaker 03 Because I always thought he was a Swiss fuck, but it turns out that hidden amongst in the toilet.
2:44 Speaker 02 What I will say is that he's the bravest Frenchman who's ever lived.
2:48 Speaker 02 And he's the only Frenchman whose hand I'd like to shake.
2:52 Speaker 02 Jean de Calvin, but he has, his name has been anglicised because it makes more sense in English than French.
2:58 Speaker 03 Jean Calvin?
2:59 Speaker 02 Does not make sense.
3:00 Speaker 03 It's John Calvin.
3:01 Speaker 02 It's not John Pork, Charlie.
3:03 Speaker 03 I love John Pork.
3:05 Speaker 02 Jean de Calvin or John Calvin, in the same way that when I watched the Manosphere documentary, I was like, this is such an Anglo-American thing. I can't imagine a French manosphere like, "Oh, the dirty bitch, look at my money. Oh, Jean-Claude." Like, it doesn't make sense in French, does it, the little French kissing?
3:21 Speaker 03 Protestant manosphere in some ways, because it's about the hustle grind, so taking, going outside the matrix, Catholic church, as you were saying.
3:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
3:30 Speaker 03 That's what Andrew Tate's saying. Basically grabbing your own life by the bootstraps and...
3:36 Speaker 02 We are all fallen. We're all neo in the fucking thing.
3:39 Speaker 03 Well, it's up to us how we live.
3:40 Speaker 02 Exactly.
3:41 Speaker 04 In France, it's the muscle wine set.
3:44 Speaker 02 The muscle wine set, rather than the hustle grind set.
3:46 Speaker 03 What's the muscle, like, is it muscles the food?
3:49 Speaker 02 Mole free.
3:50 Speaker 03 Right, yeah.
3:50 Speaker 04 It's the muscle wine set.
3:52 Speaker 03 I think the hustle wine set's probably better.
3:54 Speaker 02 No, I like muscle wine set.
3:55 Speaker 03 Muscle, but yeah.
3:57 Speaker 02 Is it muscles?
3:57 Speaker 03 Yeah, I guess so, but it sounds like it's too much like that. I think it's that they're waking up, drinking wine.
4:03 Speaker 02 Truffle wine set's quite good.
4:04 Speaker 03 Truffle wine set is good.
4:06 Speaker 02 It's less hustle, grinds it, more truffle winds it. That is good. We got there in the end. Couple of plays and misses, but we got there.
4:12 Speaker 03 Yes, you've had a couple of misses this series, but you've opened this episode with a corker.
4:16 Speaker 02 A crisp one, yeah. So Jean de Calvin, the bravest Frenchman, the only brave Frenchman you could say.
4:24 Speaker 03 The only one you could shake his hand without surrendering.
4:25 Speaker 02 Exactly, yeah. You go shake his hand and he actually shakes it. I think, oh no, please, I'm sorry. No, no, take it. Take my wife, please.
4:33 Speaker 02 He does not have springs under his arms.
4:34 Speaker 03 He has no movement in his arms. His arms don't move.
4:38 Speaker 02 No.
4:38 Speaker 03 He's completely disabled. It's Stephen Hawking.
4:40 Speaker 02 Stephen Hawking. Most Protestant man that's ever lived.
4:42 Speaker 03 Stephen Hawking. I mean, that guy can't surrender.
4:45 Speaker 02 No, and he lives a very Calvinist life.
4:48 Speaker 03 Well, well.
4:50 Speaker 02 There's not much, not much pleasure.
4:52 Speaker 03 Let's get a photo of him up on Epsides Island, which I thought was AI.
4:55 Speaker 02 No, yeah.
4:56 Speaker 03 This is the first time I've been tricked by thinking something that's real is definitely AI.
5:00 Speaker 02 This is, this is Hawking.
5:03 Speaker 03 Let's get the bikini, bikini girls. Yeah, I mean, when you first found out that Hawken was there, you're like, well, I'm sure it was something else. I'm sure it's not, it's not what I'm imagining. Because what I'm imagining is two bikini guy girls with cocktails and him in the middle.
5:17 Speaker 02 This is John Calvin when he goes to Rome.
5:23 Speaker 03 Was this him talking to other Catholics?
5:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, people in Switzerland are like, hang on, how are you, I can't imagine you going there. You don't make sense there. And he's like, I had a fucking great time. I had a holiday for myself.
5:35 Speaker 03 Anyway.
5:36 Speaker 02 So who is John Calvin? Now, he's the, he's sort of the unsung hero of the Protestant Reformation. He is the Claude Macaulay of the Protestant Reformation.
5:44 Speaker 03 So he doesn't get his flowers?
5:45 Speaker 02 Does not get his flowers and he doesn't want flowers. Put them in the bin.
5:50 Speaker 02 He wants just a dry piece of wood or something. Calvin is, he sees what Luther's doing and if Luther's a monk, Calvin is a lawyer, okay? In that he's trying to implement a society based on Luther's teachings.
6:05 Speaker 03 Right, okay.
6:06 Speaker 02 Which Luther isn't doing. Luther's all about faith and the book.
6:09 Speaker 03 Yes.
6:09 Speaker 02 But Calvin's like, yeah, but how can we actually make this civilization, how can we implement it?
6:16 Speaker 03 He's getting off the toilet.
6:18 Speaker 02 Off the toilet, let's get on with it. We've done poo, flush, wipe, next, done. So Calvin is born in 1509, he's a lawyer and he's in sort of northern France. And he converts to Protestantism. And bear in mind, Switzerland, which is where he'll make his name, that's in the Holy Roman Empire. And that's a bunch of city-states.
6:37 Speaker 03 Yeah.
6:38 Speaker 02 So it's just as loose as Germany. France is a big power. And again, this is a very confusing time. There is a great battle for the soul of France. There's a significant chance in the 16th century that France will ultimately be Protestant.
6:52 Speaker 03 I know, the French huga knows.
6:53 Speaker 02 It's, which is just, I mean, the past, imagine the sliding doors moment.
6:58 Speaker 03 Doesn't bother thinking about.
6:59 Speaker 02 Where would England go to forget itself? If France is not there.
7:03 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah.
7:04 Speaker 02 Now, if Luther is a kind of beer-drinking, sort of table-thumping, pooey German.
7:09 Speaker 03 Right.
7:10 Speaker 02 Calvin is frail, intensely private, chronically ill, migraines, gout, asthma. I mean, he is sort of Hawking-esque, I suppose. He only ever eats one meal a day. And he basically doesn't sleep.
7:24 Speaker 03 Right. So a sneeze could kill him.
7:28 Speaker 02 Yes.
7:28 Speaker 03 Yeah.
7:28 Speaker 02 Yeah. He's very frail, but he converts to Protestantism, which is not really the done thing in France. There is a thing called the Affair of the Placards.
7:39 Speaker 03 Right.
7:40 Speaker 02 So this is in the 1530s.
7:41 Speaker 03 Which is as exciting as it sounds.
7:43 Speaker 02 It is riveting stuff. Yeah, no, listen.
7:47 Speaker 03 The clash of the lanyards.
7:48 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's not, although there is a big lanyard clash culturally.
7:52 Speaker 03 Where?
7:53 Speaker 02 In that there are people who wear them, who are either autistic, disabled or gay. And then there's people who don't.
7:57 Speaker 03 Today.
7:58 Speaker 02 Today, there is a clash of the lanyards.
7:58 Speaker 03 I did see, there's this Telegraph podcast that's making me laugh a lot.
8:01 Speaker 02 Oh, with Camilla?
8:02 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's making me laugh. Because I don't know, I've really been enjoying Telegraph headlines and it's just, it's just.
8:07 Speaker 02 You keep sending them to me.
8:08 Speaker 03 They're really funny.
8:09 Speaker 02 Yeah, they are funny.
8:10 Speaker 03 Some of them, I'll get some of them up. But yeah, they're talking about that it's, yeah, that there's like a new class clash between the lanyards and the non-lanyarded.
8:20 Speaker 02 Did they actually say that?
8:21 Speaker 03 Yeah.
8:21 Speaker 02 I was joking, Christ.
8:22 Speaker 03 Yeah, no, it's great. They're saying this with a very intellectual, intelligent way, everything that we joke about. And basically, the hatred for Keir Starmer is because he represents the lanyard class.
8:31 Speaker 02 I see.
8:32 Speaker 03 And that's kind of the new division.
8:33 Speaker 02 And it's the lanyard class.
8:35 Speaker 03 They're the ones who slow down, the bureaucrats, the kind of, oh, you can't wear that, you know. And there are a lot of jobsworths, we'll give them that. There's a lot of times in this country that I do feel like, you jobsworth swine.
8:44 Speaker 02 Yes.
8:44 Speaker 03 I want to get, we need to get rid of this, whatever this attitude is.
8:47 Speaker 02 Yes.
8:47 Speaker 03 Now, actually, I can't because of my manager. No, he wouldn't.
8:50 Speaker 02 Yes, what?
8:50 Speaker 04 Is that what your cinema?
8:51 Speaker 03 A hundred percent.
8:52 Speaker 04 Cinema outing.
8:52 Speaker 03 Hundred percent. I was watching half of the latest fucking 28 years later, really enjoying it. In the best cinema, this new, great, amazing cinema on Leicester Square, if I can finish halfway through it, just the picture went. Said, sorry, we're gone. I realised that it was across the road, they were showing it and it started 45 minutes later. We were 45 minutes into the film. I tried to go in to see it. And they were saying, sorry, with the tills closed. I was like, lad, just let us in. Like, we told you this whole story. And he says, we're like, is it full? He's like, no, there's loads of room. I was like, well, just like.
9:26 Speaker 02 Let us in.
9:27 Speaker 03 Just let us in. No, because my manager might see on CCTV. It's like, I wanted to call him a swine. You're a swine and a cow.
9:35 Speaker 02 And did he have a lanyard on?
9:36 Speaker 03 Of course he did. He had rectangle glasses.
9:39 Speaker 02 Right.
9:39 Speaker 03 You know, that's like, there's no way this person can ever think for himself. There's no free thinker.
9:45 Speaker 02 Yes.
9:46 Speaker 03 Has the rectangle.
9:47 Speaker 02 You mean like Sven Goran Eriksson?
9:48 Speaker 03 Sort of.
9:51 Speaker 03 Images. Scroll down.
9:55 Speaker 03 Yeah, those ones there. See that one? No, that one.
9:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
9:59 Speaker 03 There's no way that this person has had any individual thought.
10:02 Speaker 02 My father-in-law wears those glasses.
10:06 Speaker 02 And he has a lot of, he has a lot of ideas.
10:08 Speaker 03 Okay, fine.
10:08 Speaker 02 Yeah. They're mainly about bandstands in the Surrey area.
10:11 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah, of course, he's a councillor.
10:12 Speaker 02 He is a councillor and in the recent local elections, the Lib Dem had a, Lib Dems had a surge and he sent a gif on the family WhatsApp of an AI Lib Dem bird going. Ah, with the yellow.
10:23 Speaker 03 Is he a Lib Dem councillor?
10:24 Speaker 02 Yes, he is.
10:25 Speaker 03 All right, so he feels.
10:26 Speaker 02 No, it's not threatening. He's not threatened by the Lib Dem bird.
10:28 Speaker 03 Oh, right. So he's sort of like a werewolf and the moon. There's full moon and he's a werewolf.
10:34 Speaker 02 With a big yellow cloak, yeah. We got that, you know, there's, because you know there's boomers on Facebook.
10:40 Speaker 03 The cocks revenge.
10:42 Speaker 02 There's boomers on Facebook, but then there's boomers, there's boomers discovering AI and it's a whole new sewer of them like going, isn't this amazing? And it's the most boring thing you've ever seen.
10:50 Speaker 03 Yeah, of course.
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12:45 Speaker 00 Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman, Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.
13:15 Speaker 01 Kayak searches and compares hundreds of travel sites. But unless I repeat the word kayak, Kayak thinks you won't remember that. So Kayak asked me to say kayak as many times as possible. Kayak. Kayak. Kayak. Kayak. Kayak, kayak, kayak. Kayak. Search and compare travel deals with kayak. Got that right.
13:35 Speaker 02 Anyway, Calvin's a French lawyer who converts to Protestantism. We get to the clash of the lanyards, the affair of the placards. It's 1534, okay? There are Protestant reformists that are posting placards around France criticizing the Catholic mass. There is no way to imbue this with any drama, okay? This is 16th century liturgical disputes. It could not be less relevant to anyone today.
14:01 Speaker 03 Yeah.
14:01 Speaker 02 Okay, but we have to get there to talk about our intellectual forebears. So the posters are titled, "True Articles on the Horrible, Great and Unbearable Abuses of the Papal Mass."
14:13 Speaker 03 Right, so these are kind of people who are talking about Chinese organ harvesting outside the British Museum. Do you know what I mean?
14:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:21 Speaker 03 You know, there's people with like photos of like.
14:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, I do know that.
14:24 Speaker 03 I mean, there's all around Trafalgar Square, there's like the people trying to get the Iranian royalists in. There's like people saying like, "Convert the enders nigh." There's a whole mixture of them.
14:33 Speaker 02 I don't want to be insensitive.
14:36 Speaker 03 Sure.
14:37 Speaker 02 But.
14:39 Speaker 02 Where does organ harvesting end and Chinese cuisine begin?
14:44 Speaker 03 It's the famine cuisine.
14:45 Speaker 02 They are, they're eating anything, right? So at what point is it just harvesting?
14:50 Speaker 03 Yeah, don't you know, they're Chinese is what you should say.
14:53 Speaker 02 It's called harvesting. It's their harvest. It's how they make food, all right? That's like protesting.
15:00 Speaker 03 It's culturally insensitive.
15:01 Speaker 02 I think it is.
15:01 Speaker 03 It's a complaint about Chinese organ harvesting.
15:03 Speaker 02 I'm a big cultural relativist.
15:04 Speaker 03 You are.
15:05 Speaker 02 Okay, every culture is of equal value.
15:08 Speaker 03 Yeah.
15:08 Speaker 02 Saying you can't harvest organs in China is like saying you cannot do a wasail in a Surrey orchard.
15:14 Speaker 03 Sure.
15:15 Speaker 02 Another thing my father-in-law has massively violent opinions on.
15:19 Speaker 03 What?
15:19 Speaker 02 He's a big, big pro wasail guy.
15:21 Speaker 03 What is a wasail?
15:22 Speaker 02 Blackface and all. Wasail is a pagan apple harvest festival where they black up, but in a good way.
15:28 Speaker 03 Oh, right, positive.
15:29 Speaker 02 Positive blackface.
15:30 Speaker 03 Right.
15:31 Speaker 02 Robert Downey Jr. stuff, you know? It's so funny that it's fine.
15:35 Speaker 02 So the affair of the placards, basically, a bunch of French Protestants, which I realise is a contradiction in terms.
15:42 Speaker 03 Yeah.
15:42 Speaker 02 They put placards everywhere, all over France, and the previously tolerant king, I don't know which king, he goes, right.
15:49 Speaker 03 So much for the tolerant king.
15:50 Speaker 02 This is too much, placards, are you taking the piss? And so he clamps down on the reformers, which means John Calvin flees France to Geneva. Now, we get to Calvin in Geneva, 1537. This is where he basically starts preaching his sort of sense of like more extreme Lutheranism.
16:15 Speaker 03 Is this the Beatles in Hamburg?
16:18 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, but the opposite of that.
16:22 Speaker 02 It's Dylan going electric, except it's Calvin going analog.
16:28 Speaker 02 Calvin goes acoustic, right? Unplugs everything and goes, it's all too loud, okay? So he goes to Geneva and he starts preaching. And Calvin's big thing, okay, is that whereas Luther said that everyone is a sinner, we're all in the gutter, but through your own internal consciousness and belief and faith, you can reach salvation. Calvin says, nah.
16:53 Speaker 02 Listen, God is all powerful. He's already decided who is going to go to heaven and who's not. And what you can do is you can try and find signs in someone's morals or behaviour if they are chosen or not. So this is the birth of fat shaming.
17:09 Speaker 03 Okay.
17:10 Speaker 02 It's fatness as a moral sin.
17:13 Speaker 03 Interesting.
17:13 Speaker 02 Calvin is going, you're not chosen for salvation because you're a fatty.
17:19 Speaker 02 That's where this starts.
17:21 Speaker 03 So would you say Britain's fat families, can we get some of that up please? Would you say this is playing on a Calvinist tradition?
17:28 Speaker 02 I'm saying it is impossible in a world without Calvin.
17:33 Speaker 02 Okay, that's what I'm saying.
17:36 Speaker 03 Okay, so it's putting all the responsibility on the person, but it's not their fault in a way. Because it's been predestined to be fat, immoral slob.
17:46 Speaker 02 Well, in some ways, yes, but you can still work and you should work to try and prove that God has chosen you.
17:55 Speaker 03 But if he hasn't chosen you, there's nothing you can do about it.
17:58 Speaker 02 Well, that's not a Calvinist attitude.
18:00 Speaker 03 No.
18:00 Speaker 02 That's a Catholic attitude, or maybe a Lutheran one.
18:03 Speaker 03 But he still thinks it's all predetermined. So whatever happens was always going to happen.
18:08 Speaker 02 So Calvin is starting to attach morality to, and like in a religious sense, to how people act in their lives.
18:20 Speaker 03 Right.
18:21 Speaker 02 So whereas Luther's saying it's all an internal process.
18:24 Speaker 03 The conscience.
18:24 Speaker 02 Inner conscience. Calvin's saying.
18:26 Speaker 03 Actions.
18:27 Speaker 02 Actions speak louder than words. Okay. Fridgers speak louder than empty cupboards.
18:31 Speaker 03 It's almost like thinking is too spiritual for Calvin.
18:34 Speaker 02 Exactly.
18:35 Speaker 03 Even that's too much.
18:36 Speaker 02 Prove yourself. I don't know what you're thinking.
18:39 Speaker 03 Yeah.
18:39 Speaker 02 How can I? I'm not a mind beater. That's magic. I can see you're very fat.
18:44 Speaker 03 Batman, what did he say? It's not who you are. But what you do that defines you.
18:49 Speaker 02 Yeah.
18:49 Speaker 03 So he's a Calvinist.
18:50 Speaker 02 It's who you eat.
18:51 Speaker 03 Yeah.
18:51 Speaker 02 It's what you eat. So Calvin believes in, he doesn't believe in transubstantiation. So the water into wine, that's all bollocks. That's all bollocks. The God, God and the Bible is obviously, he agrees with Luther that that's the main source. The church is bollocks, but he thinks that you should build a society where people are trying to, in a sense, prove that they're worthy of salvation.
19:13 Speaker 03 Right.
19:14 Speaker 02 Okay. So that's where he's getting up at 4am. He's Mark Wahlberg.
19:19 Speaker 03 Yes.
19:20 Speaker 02 He's, he's the grindset.
19:21 Speaker 03 Yeah.
19:22 Speaker 02 Okay. No Catholic is getting up at 4am.
19:25 Speaker 03 It is the Protestant hours.
19:27 Speaker 02 There's no, it is. And the clock probably, they're eating dinner at 10.
19:31 Speaker 03 You get two hours apiece. You get more than that.
19:33 Speaker 02 There is a time difference between, you go around the clock, the Protestant hours are the night hours. And then at what, 10am, you'd say the Catholic hours begin.
19:41 Speaker 03 Right.
19:42 Speaker 02 Till about 10pm.
19:43 Speaker 03 Right.
19:43 Speaker 02 Okay. Which is where they have dinner.
19:44 Speaker 03 Dinner, yeah.
19:45 Speaker 02 Yeah. But the Protestants are in bed. They're tucked up.
19:48 Speaker 03 They had dinner at 6pm.
19:49 Speaker 02 Exactly. Because as Brian Johnson said, one of the most Presbyterian men there are possible.
19:53 Speaker 03 Yeah, definitely.
19:54 Speaker 02 Does not want to die.
19:55 Speaker 03 The guy who measures his.
19:56 Speaker 02 The guy who measures his cum is about as Presbyterian as it gets, right? Cause he doesn't want to die because he thinks there's nothing there.
20:04 Speaker 03 Right.
20:04 Speaker 02 Right? So the Catholics, they're not there in dinner too late. And what Brian Johnson says, you should leave about four and a half hours, particularly a final meal and going to sleep.
20:14 Speaker 03 So this is the birth of the least spiritual people on the planet. There's just nowhere else in the world that this has really come at all. And there's, I guess there's like Buddhism, which is like minimal and stuff, but this sense of earthiness and groundedness is completely unique here.
20:31 Speaker 02 Just some, just breaking news, Brian Johnson's got some nighttime erection data for my 19 year old son. His duration is two minutes longer than mine. Raise children, just stand tall, be firm and be upright.
20:43 Speaker 03 I've come around to Brian Johnson, you know. At first he pissed me off, but I think he's now gone so far that he's quite, he's pretty good value.
20:50 Speaker 02 I think.
20:51 Speaker 03 If you're measuring your son's erections and then being kind of pissed off that they're two minutes firmer than yours.
20:57 Speaker 02 Listen, we all have, it's hard to make a relationship with father-son. You know, father-son bonding is difficult.
21:03 Speaker 03 If you're not football fans.
21:04 Speaker 02 If you're not football, exactly. So, you know, measuring each other's bones is just, it's just one. And not just like how big they are, the stamina.
21:12 Speaker 03 Yeah.
21:12 Speaker 02 How are they, let's just break that. How are they, are they jacking off? Like, what are they doing to measure their, it's nighttime erection data.
21:20 Speaker 03 To, I imagine, if I know Brian Johnson, he will have a custom-made ring that goes around his knob.
21:26 Speaker 02 Wearable penis tracker.
21:28 Speaker 04 Penile tracker. It's a penile tracker.
21:30 Speaker 02 Penile tracker, yeah.
21:31 Speaker 04 A Fitbit for your penis.
21:33 Speaker 03 Yeah. It's like a whoop, it's like a whoop band for your dick.
21:38 Speaker 04 The Firm Tech tech ring.
21:40 Speaker 02 So you've got father-son whoop dick bands and you're, you're measuring each other's nighttime erections.
21:46 Speaker 03 That's bonding.
21:47 Speaker 04 It's like a dual shot, what's that dual shot thing again?
21:49 Speaker 03 Quick shot launch.
21:50 Speaker 04 Quick shot and then you weigh your tech ring afterwards to go to bed.
21:53 Speaker 03 Right.
21:54 Speaker 02 Yes.
21:54 Speaker 04 Two hundred and seventy-five pounds.
21:55 Speaker 02 So I guess, yes, it's sort of the, the final frontier of biohacking is where you, you and your son pop on some tech cock rings.
22:02 Speaker 03 Wearable penile measuring rings.
22:04 Speaker 02 And then you wake up in the morning and over breakfast you compare erection data.
22:09 Speaker 03 Men love stats.
22:09 Speaker 02 They do, they do, they do, you know. I pray for the women in that household. I really do.
22:17 Speaker 03 Can we talk about something else?
22:19 Speaker 02 Please, guys, guys. And Brian's there like, oh, why don't you measure your own vaginal wetness? Why don't you fucking shove a data-collecting tampon up there?
22:30 Speaker 02 Yeah? Who's got the driest vagina out of both of you?
22:35 Speaker 02 So Calvin believes in simplicity and worship, so he's actually the boring one.
22:40 Speaker 03 Is he the guy who comes up with this?
22:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, he's the boring one, right? Luther's actually a bit of a laugh.
22:44 Speaker 03 Sure.
22:45 Speaker 02 Right?
22:45 Speaker 03 Yeah.
22:46 Speaker 02 Because even by the end, we didn't talk about it.
22:47 Speaker 03 He's a fat sausage eating.
22:49 Speaker 02 He gets really fat by the end.
22:50 Speaker 03 Beer drinking, constipated, like.
22:52 Speaker 02 And so Calvin's seeing this being like, I don't think you're the guy, mate. You're on the toilet, you're a fat fuck stuck in the toilet. You're not, you're not Jesus.
22:59 Speaker 03 He's Elvis Presley.
23:00 Speaker 02 He is Elvis. He's German Elvis on the toilet in the 16th century, eating burgers, right? Whereas, and Calvin's going, I don't know, man. I think, so in Geneva, what he does is he basically creates the, the boring Protestant utopia. Which is why Geneva today is like it is. Obsessed with time.
23:22 Speaker 03 Yeah.
23:23 Speaker 02 Clocks and accuracy.
23:24 Speaker 03 Yeah.
23:25 Speaker 02 It's some, it's like.
23:25 Speaker 03 And Swiss people are some of those boring people you ever meet.
23:27 Speaker 02 Yeah. It's, I mean, it's, it's the boring lands.
23:30 Speaker 03 Yeah.
23:31 Speaker 02 Uh, it's so dull. I did a tour of Switzerland like 12 years ago with Dane Baptiste.
23:37 Speaker 03 Everything works, everything's clean.
23:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
23:39 Speaker 03 Everything's nice.
23:40 Speaker 02 Nothing fun.
23:42 Speaker 03 But has no character at all.
23:43 Speaker 02 No vibe at all. It's just clocks.
23:46 Speaker 03 Yeah.
23:47 Speaker 02 Right? Uh, I did, we were driven around, the most interesting about it was we were driven around by a guy who, who smoked so much weed that he had, he had, he also had those, he was slightly cross-eyed, had those eyes that made you look, the glasses make your eyes look massive.
24:00 Speaker 03 Alright.
24:00 Speaker 02 But he'd look at us in the, in the rearview mirror and he'd be talking about like conspiracy theories, how like the government were out to get him, to move to Switzerland and stuff. But like his eyes were like flooding the fucking rearview mirror. Um, he's out, he was the most interesting about Switzerland. It's so dull, but that's because Calvin. Calvin makes it this just ideal ordered.
24:19 Speaker 03 Yeah.
24:19 Speaker 02 Unchaotic society. Um, so he gets, uh, he gets banished from Geneva, right? Quite early on.
24:26 Speaker 03 Yeah.
24:27 Speaker 02 Then in 1541, he's asked to return because of this growing religious unrest in the city. And then the council of Geneva passes the ecclesiastical ordinances based on Calvin's proposal for reform.
24:39 Speaker 03 Come with me now.
24:39 Speaker 02 Yeah. Ladies? Have you packed some spare pants, okay? I, I'm, I'm sorry, I did not warn you that we were talking about the ecclesiastical ordinances of 1541 Geneva. All right?
24:52 Speaker 02 They call for a restructuring of the Geneva Church with ministers being split into pastors, doctors, elders and deacons.
24:58 Speaker 03 Right.
24:59 Speaker 02 Right, which basically means, again, it's less power in the church itself. His teachings becomes Calvinism, right, which denies that the body and blood, that's all bollocks. This then starts to-
25:14 Speaker 03 That's just unlikely. He's doubting those numbers.
25:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
25:18 Speaker 03 Yeah, he's a big, yeah, he's a-
25:21 Speaker 02 He's questioning everything.
25:21 Speaker 03 Yeah, I mean, he's a Eucharist denier.
25:23 Speaker 02 He is.
25:26 Speaker 02 As am I, I must say. I'm a proud Eucharist denier.
25:30 Speaker 02 There's no way that's his body.
25:32 Speaker 03 No way.
25:32 Speaker 02 There's no way. That's such-
25:34 Speaker 03 There's so many parts that is-
25:36 Speaker 02 So much wine. That's all his blood. Now, he's bothering about in Switzerland. Now, when he dies, he becomes, he gets buried in an unmarked grave.
25:47 Speaker 03 Of course.
25:48 Speaker 02 He's my Bin Laden. Because he doesn't want to become a martyr.
25:51 Speaker 03 Right.
25:52 Speaker 02 And he doesn't want to become a site of religious pilgrimage, but he says that because he doesn't want anyone, it's not about him. It's about God.
25:59 Speaker 03 Because that's the thing, is that there's not these huge figures in Protestantism in the same way. There's not cult of personalities.
26:05 Speaker 02 No.
26:05 Speaker 03 It's not like people are like-
26:06 Speaker 02 It's the cult of no personality.
26:07 Speaker 03 Yeah, no one's got loads of pictures of Calvin saying, "I fucking love Calvin."
26:11 Speaker 02 Yeah.
26:11 Speaker 03 Like, there's none of that stuff at all.
26:13 Speaker 02 I do.
26:15 Speaker 02 I have a picture of Calvin in my toilet, right? Because he's my guy.
26:18 Speaker 03 I have a picture of Luther on the toilet in my toilet.
26:20 Speaker 02 In my toilet, yeah.
26:22 Speaker 02 So Calvin is the guy from whom, you know, you'd say Anglicized Protestantism comes from.
26:32 Speaker 03 Right.
26:32 Speaker 02 We're not Lutheran, really.
26:34 Speaker 03 Hmm.
26:35 Speaker 02 We're Calvinists, because a lot of Calvinist reformers go to Britain, especially into Scotland.
26:40 Speaker 03 Hmm.
26:40 Speaker 02 And this is where we get to the second hero of the story, John Knox. So John Knox is a Roman Catholic minister in, I want to say, the early 1540s.
26:50 Speaker 03 Scott.
26:51 Speaker 02 We should place this, actually. Shall we place 1540s? 1540s in Scotland, Christ. So this is after William Wallace.
27:00 Speaker 03 Yes.
27:01 Speaker 02 And it's before, I want to say it's before whisky.
27:05 Speaker 03 Hmm.
27:06 Speaker 02 I think we're still in pre whisky Scotland in the 16th century.
27:09 Speaker 04 13th to 15th century.
27:11 Speaker 03 Damn.
27:12 Speaker 02 Is it? Oh, okay.
27:13 Speaker 03 Before iron brew.
27:14 Speaker 02 It's definitely before. It's after whisky, it's before iron brew.
27:17 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:18 Speaker 04 1901.
27:19 Speaker 03 Pretty old.
27:20 Speaker 02 Yep. And when's Tisky invented?
27:21 Speaker 04 1629.
27:22 Speaker 02 Shit. So it's after whisky, before Tisky.
27:25 Speaker 03 Hmm.
27:26 Speaker 02 Charlie gone on the rhyming one then?
27:27 Speaker 03 That's pretty good.
27:28 Speaker 02 That's pretty good. Tisky's 1629.
27:31 Speaker 04 I love Tisky.
27:32 Speaker 02 I fucking love Tisky.
27:33 Speaker 03 That's good.
27:34 Speaker 02 You know what I like about, I've realised what I like. I like a beer where it, it sounds like it could be a concentration camp you haven't heard of.
27:43 Speaker 02 Do you know what I mean?
27:44 Speaker 03 Tisky.
27:44 Speaker 02 Tisky.
27:46 Speaker 03 Yeah, you liberated Tisky, it really fucked him up.
27:47 Speaker 02 Exactly.
27:48 Speaker 03 He was one of the guards.
27:49 Speaker 02 Half a Birkenau, please.
27:53 Speaker 02 You know, craft beers.
27:54 Speaker 03 Auschwitz IPA, please.
27:56 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly. Zuba.
27:57 Speaker 03 Zuba, yeah.
27:58 Speaker 02 Zuba could be a terrible place.
28:00 Speaker 03 Yeah.
28:01 Speaker 02 He escaped from Zuba. He was locked up for 10 years in Zuba. You know, IPAs aren't doing that.
28:08 Speaker 03 Yeah.
28:08 Speaker 02 BrewDog, you know.
28:09 Speaker 03 A Dacal pair ale.
28:11 Speaker 02 Hmm. Now you're talking. Now you're talking. Pint of Saxonhausen, please. Anyway, so John Knox is a, he starts, and this, like, this just sums up, this just sums up Scottish culture. He starts as a fucking bodyguard. He's a bodyguard to a Protestant preacher called George Wishett. And he holds a massive broadsword, right? And then Wishett gets arrested in 1545.
28:40 Speaker 02 And so, and then he gets assassinated, I think. He gets executed. And he's devastated. So Knox sort of goes on a bit of a rampage. And then he gets captured by the French forces at St Andrews. He then gets made a slave.
28:55 Speaker 03 White slave.
28:56 Speaker 02 He's a white slave.
28:59 Speaker 02 And he's Scottish. I mean, I'm trying to find slavery in my heritage.
29:03 Speaker 03 Right.
29:05 Speaker 02 Anyway, so John Knox is forced to row in French galleys for 19 months, but because he's fucking Calvinist, he loves it.
29:12 Speaker 03 He loves that shit.
29:13 Speaker 02 He loves it.
29:13 Speaker 03 It's brilliant.
29:13 Speaker 02 You can't touch me.
29:14 Speaker 03 Yeah.
29:15 Speaker 02 What do you mean? Well, my punishment is to do more work.
29:17 Speaker 03 Brilliant.
29:17 Speaker 02 Brilliant. He then, when he's released, he flees to Geneva and he becomes Calvin's student, right? So it's while in exile in Geneva in 1558 that he writes, "The first blast of the trumpet against the monstrous regiment of women."
29:35 Speaker 02 This book.
29:36 Speaker 03 So this.
29:37 Speaker 02 He says, "Women can't be rulers."
29:40 Speaker 03 Right.
29:41 Speaker 02 Because at the time, Scotland is ruled by Mary. Mary Queen of Scots. And Elizabeth I is on the throne, I think, 1558. Yeah.
29:51 Speaker 03 Yeah. So for him, it's upside down world. The world's gone insane.
29:54 Speaker 02 Yes, it is.
29:54 Speaker 03 The world's gone mad.
29:55 Speaker 02 This is fucked.
29:57 Speaker 03 LBC, everyone is calling in, what times are we living in? This is mental.
30:01 Speaker 02 LBC is impossible in a world without Knox.
30:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
30:05 Speaker 02 So he writes a book saying, "Women should not rule." This is madness. Okay? And then Elizabeth I, oh, she takes the throne shortly after that. And then he goes, "Well, no, you're the exception because you're a bloke really." You look like a bloke.
30:22 Speaker 02 So he then comes back to Scotland in 1559, having, you know, drunk from the teat of Calvin in Switzerland.
30:32 Speaker 03 And when he arrives in Scotland, it's much like the rat landing in Venice to start the Black Death, but instead it's.
30:37 Speaker 02 Don't call us that. Don't call us that. You're saying Presbyterianism is the Black Death.
30:43 Speaker 03 I'm saying if you view boringness as a sort of disease, then in that sense.
30:49 Speaker 02 Or, or as a medicine.
30:52 Speaker 02 To your Catholic disease of opulence and light and paintings.
30:57 Speaker 03 Right, right, right. So yeah, this is, this is, what is it? It's not laxatives. It's.
31:01 Speaker 02 Emodium.
31:01 Speaker 03 It's emodium.
31:02 Speaker 02 Yeah, Knox is a modem.
31:06 Speaker 02 Let's just cork that arse up, alright?
31:09 Speaker 03 Tom Knox is literally
31:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
31:10 Speaker 03 a modem arriving on a ship.
31:12 Speaker 02 So Knox comes back to Scotland.
31:13 Speaker 03 Cork up Scotland.
31:14 Speaker 02 Yeah, and he's fired up by Calvinism, but he thinks...
31:18 Speaker 03 Because this is why Scottish people are the way they are. Remember the Scottish history is blue-faced, fucking Celtic.
31:24 Speaker 02 Yeah.
31:24 Speaker 03 Britons.
31:26 Speaker 02 As I said, I don't relate to any of the William Wallace stuff.
31:29 Speaker 03 The Taliban firing fucking...
31:31 Speaker 02 The Taliban? I don't, yeah. I don't relate to it all.
31:33 Speaker 03 Yeah.
31:33 Speaker 02 This is where I start to feel Scottish.
31:35 Speaker 03 Right, yeah.
31:36 Speaker 02 Okay, and it's all from a French guy. Crazy.
31:40 Speaker 03 Crazy.
31:41 Speaker 02 A French guy via Switzerland. Anyway, so Knox comes back to Scotland and begins the Scottish Reformation. He starts these massive tub-thumping ceremonies, preaching, in St Giles' Church, Edinburgh. Get a photo of that up, Charlie. St Giles' Church, Edinburgh, which is where my parents got married.
32:00 Speaker 03 Wow.
32:00 Speaker 02 Wow. That's how much is in my bones. My parents got married at Knox's church, and he's there going like, this church needs to be way more boring.
32:10 Speaker 03 Right.
32:11 Speaker 02 Fuck it all off.
32:12 Speaker 03 Hmm.
32:12 Speaker 02 He's saying, "I want a plain room." He's literally, "I just want white walls. I want to sit in the garage."
32:20 Speaker 03 Well, yeah, I guess it's, this kind of brand of Protestantism is it's a divorced dad, right? They divorced from Catholicism.
32:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
32:29 Speaker 03 And you go to visit. You're not from a divorced family, but that moment you first visit your dad after the divorce, white walls, they haven't had, they've had a woman in their life for like, over a decade.
32:40 Speaker 02 Yes, yes.
32:41 Speaker 03 So they don't know what to do, fucking eating eggs and that's it, you know? So this is what the churches have become. It's very much symbolic of the divorced dad's new apartment.
32:51 Speaker 02 Charlie, can you find the photo? There's a photo of men who live on their own interior design. It's pretty funny.
32:57 Speaker 03 Yeah, this is what all churches look like.
32:59 Speaker 02 Yeah, this is a Lutheran church. This is a Presbyterian church. It's basically just a computer, a computer chair. And then like, a rack of weights.
33:07 Speaker 03 That's it, look.
33:08 Speaker 02 That's it, yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:12 Speaker 02 This is John Knox's church, right? This is where my parents got married. It's a windowless room with strip lighting, a computer chair, a desk, a bin, and that's it. That's it. That's all you need. You can, there's a God in that room.
33:28 Speaker 03 That's all you need.
33:29 Speaker 02 All you need.
33:29 Speaker 03 God's up here.
33:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
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34:22 Speaker 05 He built the first planet-wide media empire.
34:24 Speaker 06 He monetized the paranoia and resentment that led to Donald Trump and Brexit.
34:29 Speaker 05 He ruined his own family in his obsessive quest for money, power, and legacy.
34:34 Speaker 06 This is the story of Rupert Murdoch, the real-life succession.
34:38 Speaker 05 Join me, Dorian Linsky.
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34:54 Speaker 02 So, uh, in, he starts preaching, and he also, Mary Queen of Scots, he starts having meetings with her. He starts, basically, he starts with these riots. The Scottish Reformation begins in, what, 1560 odd? There's a sort of civil war, and Scotland becomes officially Protestant in August 1560, abolishes the Mass, and then, uh...
35:25 Speaker 02 Also Elizabeth the first is trying, she wants Scotland to be Protestant because then that would secure her northern border.
35:32 Speaker 03 Yeah, Mary Queen of Scots basically fucks it because I think she tries to kill Elizabeth and then Elizabeth has to kill her or something like that.
35:40 Speaker 02 But this is before that because Knox visits Mary Queen of Scots, who at this point is a fucking Spanish teenager.
35:47 Speaker 03 French, right?
35:48 Speaker 02 French teenager.
35:49 Speaker 03 Yeah.
35:50 Speaker 02 Right, she's an annoying French teenager with blue hair or something.
35:51 Speaker 03 Yeah.
35:52 Speaker 02 And she's calling on Hardman John Knox just to like come and explain yourself.
35:57 Speaker 03 Yeah.
35:58 Speaker 02 He goes and meets her and says, you're fucking voodoo nonsense, love.
36:01 Speaker 03 Right, yeah.
36:02 Speaker 02 Don't fucking teach me, I'm School of Hard Knocks, literally.
36:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
36:05 Speaker 02 I think the last time they meet, he makes her cry.
36:08 Speaker 03 Yeah.
36:09 Speaker 02 I mean, this is the long road to your dad making waiters cry.
36:13 Speaker 03 Right.
36:14 Speaker 02 You know, let's debate me, debate me, debate me.
36:18 Speaker 03 And the marketplace of ideas.
36:19 Speaker 02 What do you actually think? What do you think of the marketplace of ideas? Okay, you're free to debate me.
36:22 Speaker 03 Dad, we're never going to go to this restaurant again, but otherwise they'll never learn.
36:25 Speaker 02 We had a terrific discussion, it was a brilliant dinner.
36:27 Speaker 03 Now they've learnt something, they won't do this again.
36:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:31 Speaker 03 It's actually very selfless for the next person who has to be served by them.
36:33 Speaker 02 They've quit their job. So yeah, that's right, so she returns to now Protestant Scotland, having been in exile. Knox is like, right, well you're a threat to the newly Protestant Scotland, so he's trying to demand her to abandon the Catholic Mass and then he makes her cry after criticizing her relentlessly to her face. And she's a teenager, she's a teenage girl.
36:54 Speaker 03 Beast.
36:55 Speaker 02 And he's just fucking, he destroys her. It's the first feminist gets destroyed by truth and logic. John Knox making Mary Queen of Scots cry, right? I love it.
37:06 Speaker 03 It is like those uni hall debate things where they're debating like literal 19 year olds.
37:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
37:11 Speaker 03 It'll be like a professional debate.
37:12 Speaker 02 It's like the Charlie Kirk thing, it's like, yeah, you're debating the weakest members of that team.
37:16 Speaker 03 Of course, yeah.
37:17 Speaker 02 Eighteen year olds.
37:18 Speaker 03 Yeah.
37:19 Speaker 02 Who are barely neuro-normative enough to fucking look you in the eye.
37:23 Speaker 03 Yeah, blue hair, fat with a teddy, they hold it, an anxiety.
37:25 Speaker 02 They take the headphones off. Yeah, Charlie, so I was just wondering.
37:34 Speaker 02 Have you read the Bible? Have you read the Bible?
37:36 Speaker 03 Yeah.
37:36 Speaker 02 So Knox, basically Knox, Mary, Queen of Scots, the sixth. And he founds his legacy to the world is Presbyterianism, which basically is a radical democratic Protestantism.
37:52 Speaker 03 Okay.
37:52 Speaker 02 Which is anti-monarchist.
37:53 Speaker 03 Interesting.
37:54 Speaker 02 So.
37:55 Speaker 03 Which that it comes up in the English Civil War, right?
37:57 Speaker 02 Yes.
37:57 Speaker 03 Yeah.
37:58 Speaker 02 So whereas Anglicanism, which.
38:02 Speaker 03 The Pope is the king, basically, in Anglicanism.
38:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, Knox would say that in the Reformation, the English Reformation, which we will deal with more when we do Henry the Eighth, that they just replace the Pope with the King.
38:12 Speaker 03 Yeah.
38:13 Speaker 02 He's like, let's get rid of, like, no human should be in the head of the church. It's going to be a council of elders, which is where the word Presbyterianism comes from.
38:22 Speaker 03 Right.
38:23 Speaker 02 From the Greek, right? So he actually is sort of the birth of American puritanism.
38:30 Speaker 03 Yes, very, it's all, yeah.
38:32 Speaker 02 Because that's libertarianism.
38:34 Speaker 03 Yeah.
38:35 Speaker 02 Devolved.
38:36 Speaker 03 Yeah, anti-monarchist is a, yeah. Yeah, it is fuck you mum.
38:39 Speaker 02 He's the first emo.
38:40 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah.
38:41 Speaker 02 He's the fuck you mum. It's John Knox.
38:44 Speaker 03 Where are you?
38:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, he's listening to My Chemical Romance in his room, cutting himself, right? Whereas Anglicanism is, is much more gay.
38:53 Speaker 03 It is much more gay.
38:54 Speaker 02 Because there is still beauty in Anglicanism. So this is the church that Henry the Eighth accidentally founds because he has a boner for.
39:01 Speaker 03 Yeah, and this is the sort of the church that I was raised in a bit more. It's basically Elizabeth the First, centrist dad, the sectarian violence that's going on.
39:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:10 Speaker 03 It was fucking super Protestant with Edward the Sixth.
39:12 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:12 Speaker 03 It was super Catholic with Mary. There's too many factions, so she just goes right down the middle.
39:17 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:17 Speaker 03 And said, let's just cherry pick a bit of this, bit of that.
39:20 Speaker 02 There's a third way.
39:21 Speaker 03 Yeah.
39:22 Speaker 02 Elizabeth the First, the first Blair.
39:23 Speaker 03 Yeah.
39:24 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:24 Speaker 03 So, and that, that means that we can still have some fucking, it's still a fucking church.
39:29 Speaker 02 We can have some beauty.
39:30 Speaker 03 It can, it doesn't have to be the most miserable, it doesn't have to look like a betting shop. It's not like Ladbrokes.
39:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:35 Speaker 03 But we can do without the Pope, without some of the, the bollocks.
39:39 Speaker 02 I'll tell you what it is, it's, it's a guy whose girlfriend's left him, but he's kept the house.
39:43 Speaker 03 Yeah.
39:44 Speaker 02 Right?
39:44 Speaker 03 Right.
39:45 Speaker 02 He's not moved to a new house and had to decorate it or not.
39:48 Speaker 03 Right, so you can still keep some of the.
39:49 Speaker 02 You keep the artwork, the plant, he can keep the plant alive. Okay, the stuff on the walls, the lighting is nice.
39:55 Speaker 03 Right, right.
39:56 Speaker 02 But she's not there.
39:57 Speaker 03 Yeah, okay.
39:58 Speaker 02 In Presbyterianism, I'm leaving you and I'm gonna go and live in a fucking box room.
40:04 Speaker 03 Well, always Anglicanism, it's still a divorce, but your dad's divorcing your mum because he's secretly gay.
40:10 Speaker 02 He's a gay man, yeah. Which is why my dad is Anglican.
40:12 Speaker 03 Yeah, so.
40:15 Speaker 02 Yes.
40:15 Speaker 03 Because when you go over to your dad's house, it's like.
40:17 Speaker 02 Hiya!
40:18 Speaker 03 Why does this look nicer than our house?
40:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
40:20 Speaker 03 Why have you been, why has your interior design flair been set free now you've left?
40:24 Speaker 02 And you go, that's the Pope. No, it's not. It's your stepdad.
40:29 Speaker 02 And you go, but, but, but no.
40:32 Speaker 03 But when do you have this, how are you suppressing all of this? I didn't know you were like, hi!
40:36 Speaker 02 Hi, yeah, exactly.
40:37 Speaker 03 I actually think the spirit of Anglicanism, which what I find so funny is it seems to be maybe the, one of the most gentle churches.
40:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, oh yeah, totally.
40:44 Speaker 03 Like, the English vicar is a fucking referee.
40:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
40:48 Speaker 03 They're like, everything's completely soft.
40:50 Speaker 02 Jam, jam. It's just jam.
40:52 Speaker 03 It can't really survive as a church because it doesn't have enough.
40:58 Speaker 02 Drama.
40:59 Speaker 03 Drama. It's not forcing anyone to be in there. It's not really oppressing anyone in any way.
41:03 Speaker 02 No.
41:04 Speaker 03 It's more like, well, you know, if you, if you, you can be gay. Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. If you want. I mean, if you wanna be an Anglican, please.
41:09 Speaker 02 Cup of tea? Is that one? Is that one?
41:11 Speaker 03 And honestly, if you ever stop believing, you know, you just go, it's fine. Yeah. So it's just very like.
41:16 Speaker 02 Anglicanism is the, it's the religion of empire. The British Empire is Anglican.
41:20 Speaker 03 Yes.
41:21 Speaker 02 And so it has that elite.
41:24 Speaker 03 Patri, what is it?
41:25 Speaker 02 Patri.
41:25 Speaker 03 Paternal.
41:26 Speaker 02 Paternalism. Yes, paternalistic. And also, there is, you know, the aesthetic of empire.
41:31 Speaker 03 Yeah.
41:31 Speaker 02 Rajkhor, for example. It's still interested in architectural beauty.
41:35 Speaker 03 Yeah.
41:36 Speaker 02 In sartorial elegance.
41:37 Speaker 03 Yes, sure.
41:38 Speaker 02 You know, John Knox would rather just be sort of fucking naked on a beach.
41:42 Speaker 03 Well, we weren't, it's very similar to Mao suits. It's the same thing.
41:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:46 Speaker 03 It's the same thing.
41:48 Speaker 02 So there is still a, now, we've got the, the differences between Presbyterianism and Lutheran churches. So in Presbyterianism, if the Bible doesn't command it, you don't do it. Whereas Lutheran, Anglican, if the Bible doesn't forbid it, you can do it.
42:04 Speaker 03 Right.
42:05 Speaker 02 It's just slightly gentler. So the terms of decor, Presbyterianism, white walls, no statues. Lutheran Anglican, stained glass, crucifixes, candles.
42:15 Speaker 03 So yeah, so American Protestantism is closer to Presbyterian.
42:19 Speaker 02 Yes.
42:19 Speaker 03 Slightly evangelical is like, where it's all about the...
42:21 Speaker 02 Yeah. Music, in Lutheran and Anglican, you get choirs, organs, hymns. Presbyterianism...
42:27 Speaker 03 Originally...
42:28 Speaker 02 Acapella only. Barbershop, that's it.
42:32 Speaker 03 Not even allowed fucking pianos.
42:34 Speaker 02 No pianos. Pianos are gay. Fuck off. Right?
42:38 Speaker 03 Go to the fucking West End and do Jersey Boys. This is a fucking church.
42:41 Speaker 02 And why don't you suck off the audience while you're at it, if you're playing a piano? Okay?
42:44 Speaker 03 Anglican hymns, the most goaded hymns of any church, I'd say.
42:48 Speaker 02 And did those feed...
42:49 Speaker 03 Well, there's a lot. That's Anglican, yeah. But in general, I think it blows Catholics out of the water.
42:55 Speaker 02 They'd love that.
42:56 Speaker 03 What, being blown out of the water?
42:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
42:58 Speaker 03 I think the Christian relationship to music is probably the strongest of any religion.
43:03 Speaker 02 Uh, oh, ah.
43:07 Speaker 03 But, you know...
43:07 Speaker 02 It's a pretty strong relationship after that.
43:08 Speaker 03 They've only got one song now, don't they?
43:10 Speaker 02 They do, they do. But it slaps. It slaps, you know? And again, what would the Christian call to prayer be?
43:19 Speaker 03 Uh, well, which, which?
43:20 Speaker 02 Come in, there's tea. You know, it's not the same, is it? I've made sandwiches.
43:25 Speaker 04 Excuse me.
43:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, they would be actually, be a woman on a minivan going, "Excuse me? Are you allowed to park there?"
43:31 Speaker 03 What's the call?
43:32 Speaker 02 "Do you have a permit for that?"
43:33 Speaker 03 That's the call to prayer.
43:34 Speaker 02 That's the English, that's the Anglican call to prayer.
43:36 Speaker 03 Yeah.
43:36 Speaker 02 Yeah. The busybody, the curtain twitcher. Yeah? Not quite as mystical as that, though, Akbar.
43:42 Speaker 04 Do you want to hear some Scientology hymn?
43:44 Speaker 02 Go on, then.
43:47 Speaker 02 It's just too modern, isn't it?
43:50 Speaker 03 There's no sense of history here.
43:52 Speaker 02 Sounds like the fucking monkeys or something.
43:57 Speaker 03 It's not bad.
43:57 Speaker 02 It's pretty good, actually.
44:00 Speaker 03 It's Scientology.
44:01 Speaker 02 Gospel sounds-
44:02 Speaker 03 It's like psych rock.
44:03 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:04 Speaker 03 That's unbelievable.
44:05 Speaker 02 I, yeah.
44:06 Speaker 03 I doubt that.
44:07 Speaker 02 Doubt that's true. Let's, we'll circle back to that.
44:09 Speaker 03 Yeah.
44:10 Speaker 02 But yes, Presbyterianism, get rid of the piano, fuck off.
44:13 Speaker 03 Yeah.
44:14 Speaker 02 Right, strip it all back. So he successfully creates the Scottish Presbyterian system. In March sixty, fifteen sixty-four, at approximately fifty years old, he marries Margaret Stuart.
44:26 Speaker 03 Oh damn.
44:26 Speaker 02 Relative of Mary, Queen of Scots. She's seventeen. Oh.
44:34 Speaker 02 Um, and-
44:36 Speaker 03 This is crazy. This is like a, a, a long-running thing now.
44:42 Speaker 03 What a guy marriages a teenager. Oh, oh, oh woo.
44:51 Speaker 03 Yeah, so he's guilty of being a fucking Luddin'.
44:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, listen, you know, it's, it's-
44:56 Speaker 03 Listen to what?
44:57 Speaker 02 It's sex tourism. Presbyterianism is sex tourism.
45:00 Speaker 03 Right.
45:01 Speaker 02 Alright?
45:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
45:03 Speaker 02 It's, it's, it's fine. We're all in the gutter.
45:05 Speaker 03 So has he managed to pull himself up by his bootstraps pretty well? Cause he was a bodyguard.
45:10 Speaker 02 He's one of the-
45:10 Speaker 03 And now he's married into the-
45:12 Speaker 02 It's one of the biggest zero-to-heroes ever.
45:14 Speaker 03 Yeah.
45:14 Speaker 02 In that he basically is intellectually-
45:15 Speaker 03 He was a slave.
45:16 Speaker 02 He was a slave.
45:19 Speaker 03 And then his fucking amazing grace.
45:20 Speaker 02 He was-
45:21 Speaker 03 Twas blind but now I see.
45:22 Speaker 02 He was, he was gen- a slave on a slave ship. He was enslaved by the French.
45:26 Speaker 04 Darren Unchained.
45:27 Speaker 02 Hey?
45:27 Speaker 04 Darren Unchained.
45:28 Speaker 02 Darren Unchained.
45:33 Speaker 02 Yeah. Uh, and then he marries into the fucking royal family.
45:38 Speaker 03 Yeah.
45:38 Speaker 02 Uh, you know, a relative of, and he makes the Queen cry. I mean, he's savage. He's brilliant.
45:43 Speaker 03 If only he was born after YouTube, so you could watch highlights of him destroying people.
45:47 Speaker 02 Oh yeah, I'd love to see clips.
45:48 Speaker 03 You know, twenty-five minutes, knock slaps. You know, there's like hitch slaps.
45:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:55 Speaker 02 It'd be knocks, knocksouts.
45:56 Speaker 03 Yeah, knocksout.
45:57 Speaker 02 Knocksout punch. Yeah, it'd be brilliant. And then his 17 year old wife nurses him through his final illness. John Knox dies, 1572, aged 58. He's buried in St Giles, which is again when my, when my parents got married. And he lea-, now, the great irony is that having, having destroyed Mary Queen of Scots with fact and logic.
46:19 Speaker 03 Yeah.
46:20 Speaker 02 Mary Queen of Scots, is it her son, is James VI? Who becomes James I? Is that right? Or is it a grandson?
46:29 Speaker 04 How's he done that?
46:30 Speaker 02 Sorry?
46:31 Speaker 04 How does he do?
46:31 Speaker 03 Long story.
46:32 Speaker 02 Long story, Charlie, we'll get to it.
46:33 Speaker 03 Yeah.
46:34 Speaker 02 So the irony, of course, is that he, basically, having defeated her, and, you know, because Elizabeth imprisoned her, when she dies, eventually, her son takes the throne. But he's raised by Protestant tutors, isn't he? James I.
46:50 Speaker 03 Yeah, he's Protestant.
46:51 Speaker 02 He is, but then he makes the King James Bible.
46:54 Speaker 03 Yes.
46:54 Speaker 02 Which is the kind of Protestant, the Anglican.
46:57 Speaker 03 It's the English speaking Bible.
46:58 Speaker 02 It's the Anglican Bible, isn't it?
46:59 Speaker 03 Yeah.
46:59 Speaker 02 That's the kind of text, so.
47:00 Speaker 03 Is that like the, the bestselling Bible in the world, right?
47:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, I guess it is. I guess it is the bestselling.
47:06 Speaker 04 What's the worst selling Bible in the world?
47:08 Speaker 02 Don't know. What's the least Chris-, what's the least Christian country?
47:12 Speaker 04 The wicked Bible.
47:14 Speaker 02 It's, it's due to a catastrophic typo in the 1631, which said, thou shalt commit adultery. That's amazing.
47:24 Speaker 03 That's incredible.
47:24 Speaker 02 That's incredible. There's a Bible made under Charles I that said, well, so people were reading that going, oh, right, fuck.
47:30 Speaker 03 Brilliant.
47:31 Speaker 02 Oh, right, brilliant.
47:33 Speaker 03 And also the fact that a catastrophic typo back then is not as easy to correct things.
47:38 Speaker 02 That is catastrophic.
47:40 Speaker 03 That is a fucking catastr-
47:41 Speaker 04 It's called the wicked Bible.
47:42 Speaker 03 Oh, no. Oh, fuck.
47:44 Speaker 02 Unless they went, thou shalt commit adultery, turn the page. Nat.
47:48 Speaker 03 Yeah.
47:49 Speaker 04 There it is.
47:50 Speaker 02 Oh, fuck, there it is. Thou shalt commit adul-, that's pretty funny.
47:55 Speaker 03 Wow.
47:56 Speaker 02 I wonder if they missed out all the knots. So it's like thou shalt covet thy neighbour's ox.
48:00 Speaker 03 He doesn't understand what shalt means.
48:01 Speaker 02 Yeah. So Presbyterianism, this becomes ultimately the central divide between England, Scotland, culturally, in that now Scotland starts to really punch above its weight intellectually.
48:17 Speaker 03 Yes.
48:18 Speaker 02 Because, isn't there something about, there's a stat where it's like, the more likely you were to have a printing press, the more likely you were to be Protestant.
48:26 Speaker 03 Yes, definitely.
48:27 Speaker 02 And then the more likely you were to be-
48:27 Speaker 03 Or if there was one in your town, you'd-
48:29 Speaker 02 The more likely you were to be Protestant, the more literate the society.
48:32 Speaker 03 Yeah.
48:33 Speaker 02 So Scotland becomes an intensely literate society because Presbyterianism, even more than Luther, is about reading.
48:38 Speaker 03 Yes.
48:38 Speaker 02 You've got to read.
48:39 Speaker 03 And they're like, inventor per square mile is the best anywhere Scottish. Like Scots invented everything, right?
48:46 Speaker 02 Yes.
48:46 Speaker 03 And there's barely any of them. And also within the British Empire, the people who-
48:50 Speaker 02 Toilets.
48:51 Speaker 03 Yeah, toilets.
48:52 Speaker 02 Yeah.
48:52 Speaker 03 TVs.
48:53 Speaker 02 TVs.
48:54 Speaker 03 The electron, the electric grid.
48:56 Speaker 02 The phone.
48:56 Speaker 03 Yeah.
48:57 Speaker 02 I mean, our modern life is watching TV on a phone on the toilet. And that's Scotland.
49:02 Speaker 03 That's Scotland, right?
49:03 Speaker 02 Scotland, the giveaway is that. They're the first-class crescent for pooing.
49:08 Speaker 03 Yeah.
49:09 Speaker 02 So Presbyterianism, then, that's all about the, whereas Luther says you should read the Bible just so you can decide whether you agree with it or not, and it's your own faith, Presbyterianism is like, you need to read the Bible because you're in charge of the church. It's up to you, because there's no kings, because fuck them.
49:26 Speaker 03 Right.
49:27 Speaker 02 It's up to you, you're running it.
49:28 Speaker 03 I see.
49:29 Speaker 02 So you've got to read it, you've got to be able to read, which is why everyone in Scotland's, and again, I mean, the-
49:33 Speaker 03 You're all council members.
49:34 Speaker 02 Yes.
49:35 Speaker 03 You're all councillors.
49:35 Speaker 02 We're all Jackie Weaver.
49:38 Speaker 03 Yeah.
49:39 Speaker 02 Whereas Anglicanism is a fudge.
49:42 Speaker 03 A fudge?
49:42 Speaker 02 It is fudge.
49:44 Speaker 03 Right, I see, yeah.
49:44 Speaker 02 It's a fudge between Catholic and Protestant.
49:46 Speaker 03 Yes, sorry. And they serve fudge fingers as well.
49:48 Speaker 02 They serve fudge fingers.
49:49 Speaker 03 Yeah.
49:49 Speaker 02 Right. So-
49:51 Speaker 03 Is it Eddie Izzard's joke, right? Cake or death?
49:53 Speaker 02 Yes.
49:54 Speaker 03 That's the, that's what the Anglicans are like.
49:55 Speaker 02 Yes, it is.
49:55 Speaker 03 Yeah.
49:56 Speaker 02 Yeah. But i- in terms of America, Calvinism, Calvin's the root from the tree from which-
50:07 Speaker 02 You know, you'd say Calvin's the tree of life for people who don't nap. In that you've got one branch which leads to Scotland, one branch that leads to Puritanism, which leads to America. Because obviously the Puritans, maybe 80 years later, are disgusted with the direction of the country.
50:27 Speaker 03 Right.
50:28 Speaker 02 Much like people moving to Dubai now.
50:30 Speaker 03 Yeah.
50:30 Speaker 02 Because ironically, London's getting too Muslim.
50:32 Speaker 03 Right.
50:33 Speaker 02 Where are you going? The Gulf? Brilliant. You've nailed that, lads. Well done. They are going to America to make it more Puritan.
50:40 Speaker 03 Yes.
50:41 Speaker 02 That's all Calvinist. So the Calvinist work ethic, you know, is American Puritanism.
50:47 Speaker 03 Definitely.
50:48 Speaker 02 The Presbyterian iconoclasm of destroying idols and kings, that's America.
50:55 Speaker 03 How ugly a lot of American cities and buildings are.
50:56 Speaker 02 That's Knox.
50:57 Speaker 03 Yeah.
50:57 Speaker 02 You know. And yet, they're all fat.
51:02 Speaker 03 Interesting.
51:03 Speaker 02 Which Calvin would have hated.
51:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
51:04 Speaker 02 And Knox would have hated as well.
51:05 Speaker 03 Yes, it's true.
51:07 Speaker 02 So that's kind of the, I suppose that's, I guess that's the story of Calvin in a way. In that he, he's actually who we're all.
51:17 Speaker 03 Because there's not much to talk about him as a person, because he doesn't want any of that stuff being out there.
51:20 Speaker 02 Well, he's Stephen Hawking in a chair in Switzerland. I mean, who cares? Who cares really? Right? And he's French, which again, is just mind blowing to me. And yet, he is responsible for the Anglosphere, I'd say. The idea of the West.
51:34 Speaker 03 Yeah.
51:34 Speaker 02 Is impossible without Calvin, I don't think. The idea of capitalism is a Calvinist.
51:41 Speaker 03 I don't think the idea of the West, than the idea of the Anglosphere.
51:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
51:43 Speaker 03 Because I guess the West is Spain, France, Italy.
51:46 Speaker 02 The West is not Spain. What are you talking about?
51:49 Speaker 03 What do you think? That's Africa.
51:50 Speaker 02 I say the West has fallen, you know what I mean? Spain has fallen, it's never woken up.
51:56 Speaker 02 No one's saying Spain has fallen.
51:58 Speaker 03 Yeah. What do you think about the religious character of Australia then? How do you think that differs much from America from when you've gone there?
52:09 Speaker 02 It's a good point, actually. I suppose it's more of a missionary society. And I guess, I don't know much about what was cooked. He must have been Anglican.
52:18 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's very Protestant vibes there, I feel.
52:21 Speaker 02 Yeah, but it's not the same. It's not got the same hustle.
52:27 Speaker 02 I think it's impossible to separate American religion from their economic urgency. Right? But they don't have that in Australia.
52:36 Speaker 03 Yeah, they see it as like a moral good to make money.
52:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. So that is the story of Calvin and of a friend of the pod, John Knox.
52:46 Speaker 02 In our final episode in the Reformation, we will deal with the Empire striking back, the Counter-Reformation, the evil priests, the Darth Vedas. How do they respond?
53:00 Speaker 02 The Spanish Inquisition, all that stuff.
53:02 Speaker 03 They clap back.
53:02 Speaker 02 They clap back hard. That's the final episode in this series. That's already on the Patreon. We will hear about some terrible stories of Protestants being massacred, which I am firmly against. Anyway, we'll also be doing a deep dive on the history of the Amish.
53:18 Speaker 03 Yeah, that's on the Patreon. That's great stuff.
53:20 Speaker 02 That's great fun. And our live special on the JFK assassination, recorded at Hackney Empire last year. That's going out as well.
53:27 Speaker 03 It's a great show.
53:28 Speaker 02 That's it from us for this episode. We'll see you next time for the final episode in our Reformation series. Goodbye.
53:34 Speaker 03 Bye bye.
54:08 Speaker 00 And Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.
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