Can You Separate The Fart From The Fartist? (With Bebe Cave) | Great Artists: Picasso

Picasso's ideal woman? Goddess in the streets, doormat in the sheets. Great Artists (Part Two) This episode of Fin vs History is brought to you by Surfshark. Secure your privacy with Surfshark! Enter coupon code FVH for an extra 4 months at https://surfshark.com/fvh The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened.  For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening and early access to series, become a Truther and sign up to the Patreon ⁠⁠⁠patreon.com/fintaylor⁠⁠ Chapters: 00:00 - The Ski Trip 05:56 - Goddesses And Doormats 12:38- Sucking C*ck 18:55 - Cumbuckets 22:19 - Awoo!! 25:26 - Fat Elvis 29:44 - Gouge Their Eyes Out 34:22 - He Loved It 41:39 - It’s Like Love Island 45:04 - Successfully Yeah 50:01 - Italy Is A Wet Suit Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The wheel had roads, electricity had the grid. Innovation needs infrastructure. Plaid makes AI work in finance. Visit plaid.com/ai to learn more.

• 0:27Speaker 01

  Welcome back to Pinversus History. I'm joined by Horatio Gould.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  And Mrs. Horatio Gould.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  There he is.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  BB Cave.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  Look at this for the first time.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  The second time.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  Second time, what?

• 0:38Speaker 01

  First, she's the second time she's been on the pod.

• 0:39Speaker 03

  Yes, it's the first time that you've had a repeat guest.

• 0:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 0:42Speaker 03

  And it's the first time that you've had a guest that's engaged to one of the hosts.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  This is the first time we've had.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  First of many.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  To announce, yes.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  We're gonna, Henry VIII is gonna sort of, we're gonna become bloated and just have a sort of carousel.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Victoria's been on twice. This is the first female guest we've had on twice.

• 0:57Speaker 02

  Yes. A second BB Cave has hit the podcast.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Yes, a second, a second Horatio Gould has hit the podcast. So also, I like the idea that you're here to announce your engagement and the podcast has essentially become the back pages of the Times.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  Where high-earning individuals announce their engagements.

• 1:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11Speaker 03

  It is really convenient timing, actually. I'll make sure to hold my microphone like this.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  Just to get the ring in.

• 1:17Speaker 02

  When was the last time you saw Charlie skiing, pretty much?

• 1:24Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it was good to have a firsthand account of.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, we should have a sort of.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  Do you want to explain what happened from your perspective?

• 1:31Speaker 03

  I really don't. I really don't.

• 1:34Speaker 02

  No, just from your perspective, just set the scene.

• 1:36Speaker 03

  Horatio, don't make me do that.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  That's quite, it's quite, what I'll say about Stephen Bartlett's podcast is he kind of eases the trauma out. And you've just kind of like a fucking truck driven into it.

• 1:46Speaker 03

  I was supposed to do my least favourite thing, which is be gross.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  Oi, oi, love, talk about how bad this shit's wearing all the time. That's essentially what you've done.

• 1:52Speaker 03

  I knew I shouldn't have told you. I knew that you would commodify.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  You're white as a sheet and you're saying on the landing, it was one of the worst smells I've ever smelt in my life.

• 2:03Speaker 04

  I feel that's unfair.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  You said, you said that I heard him furiously flushing, I believe.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  It was only because it happened two days in a row and I thought he might be some, I thought that might be something genuinely wrong.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  So was it on the second day that you?

• 2:16Speaker 03

  It was on the second day that I thought and it.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Well, God bless you for buttoning up for a day. That's nice of you.

• 2:21Speaker 03

  It was when it, I thought maybe there was something wrong with the drainage. And then it was the second time hearing the flushes from upstairs. I just thought to myself like, that really is so, it's so severe that I wonder if it's, if it's, we're all gonna get sick. Do you know what I mean? I had to.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Did it change the fact that for lunch you saw him eat, eat a giant steak tartare?

• 2:45Speaker 03

  He literally, like he was eating a dog's dinner. It was, it was the most revolting plate of food I've ever seen in my life.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  No knife and fork in my head. No knife and fork, just.

• 2:56Speaker 03

  And it's, you know, the thing is when you stay with people for the first time, even if you know them quite well, there is a real, there's a real kind of.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  There's an intimacy to it.

• 3:03Speaker 03

  There's intimacy to it. I saw him wandering around in boxers and a little vest.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  Well, you see that here at the office, doesn't it?

• 3:09Speaker 03

  And I also, it's sort of because, oh, Charlie, I don't want to embarrass you.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  No, go ahead.

• 3:17Speaker 03

  We were playing cards and it was, I went down to the basin to, to, to get some fizzy water. And it was in both, it was the bathroom downstairs as well, so I was like, and so I knew it was you. Because the thing is, it was because we'd been playing cards.

• 3:33Speaker 04

  I go in there to fart.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  Where'd you go to fart?

• 3:35Speaker 04

  To the toilet.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  No, I think that's, that's fine.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  Because it was, it was such a recognisable.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  It was very distinctive busk and it was.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  I realised it must have been you then.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Because you'd upstairs and downstairs.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  I'd seen you go downstairs a few times during the card games and I wondered what was going on there.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Today, we're talking about Pablo Picasso.

• 3:53Speaker 03

  I didn't want to talk about that.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  I should just say that, but, but I would like to add that as a link, I think Picasso, obviously, I think you were shitting on the bowl in this sort of quite Picasso-esque way.

• 4:02Speaker 03

  God, I'm sorry, Charlie.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  I think you looked like an actual poo. I think you were just kind of spreading.

• 4:06Speaker 03

  I'm really sorry, Charlie. I know you didn't want to talk about that.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Picasso-esque shits in the toilet of the Airbnb that you guys were staying in.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 4:15Speaker 03

  But in a way, it's kind of interesting because if we're thinking about the themes of the episode and, you know, the relationships that people have, what is it? You know, what is moral to include in art? Can you include every aspect of somebody's life?

• 4:26Speaker 02

  What is moral to include in the toilet? Like what's?

• 4:29Speaker 03

  No, no, I mean, you know, you decided to share this intimate detail of Charlie's because you knew that it was going to be beneficial for your art. He benefits from it in a way too, because it's funny.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  But art isn't pretty.

• 4:39Speaker 04

  I don't think I'm pretty.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  Sometimes not being faced up to the truth.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  That's not what I thought you were gonna say. I thought you were gonna say it's interesting as to how much you can romanticise.

• 4:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Someone who is, you know, public facing.

• 4:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Quite fun.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Or like entertaining, but actually the reality to live with them, very, very difficult man.

• 4:56Speaker 03

  Exactly. But also maybe the hangover of sharing so much.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:01Speaker 03

  And I think Charlie obviously shares a really wonderful whimsical side of himself.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Is it whimsical?

• 5:08Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  I was a paedophile for a year. Oh, what a whimsical waif back there, thinking he's a fucking nonce for a year.

• 5:16Speaker 03

  Well, I think that it comes.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Stop that tweet bollocks, will you?

• 5:18Speaker 03

  It comes with cons, doesn't it? You know?

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:21Speaker 03

  So maybe the Charlie.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Are you surviving Charlie Milner? When that documentary comes out, you can have a talking head.

• 5:27Speaker 03

  I'm gonna have to be one of those people that shuffles the microphones.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  How much can you separate the fart from the fartist?

• 5:36Speaker 03

  I'm really sorry, Charlie.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  No, no, it's, we brought it up. Now, we brought Mrs. Horatio Gould on the show and in my head, I'm saying, you know how when we were on tour in Bristol and that, that guy in Bristol? What's his name? And he went, yep, and you're staying with Mr. Horatio Gould.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  He was at a travel lodge in Bristol. He completely, he'd never seen anything like it before. And I understand it's not a normal name, but to go Japanese and he goes, Harateg.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  That's how I'm, that's how I now think about it. Mr. Horatio Gould.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  It's Mr. Harateg.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Because you're, I mean, you're, you're quite an art, you're quite an arty couple, I suppose now, aren't you?

• 6:13Speaker 02

  You often say, this is probably the sort of thing your Mrs. wears and it'll be like, like a mad hippie flower dress.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Because Amanda's quite, she's quite earthy and real.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  She's a bloke, really.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  She's not intending to star sign stuff, astrology. Whereas BB, you're, now that the relationship's more locked down, I feel you're kind of going quite far that way.

• 6:37Speaker 03

  I think so, maybe because I feel more comfortable that you won't leave me.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Because at the beginning, you used to laugh about star signs and said it was only just, but now I've recently seen you in the middle of the night, getting pieces of paper and out the window, you rip it up in front of the moon. Which is pretty like horror film sort of stuff, Exorcist sort of stuff.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Really, you throw, you throw paper at the moon?

• 6:59Speaker 03

  No. It's a full moon ritual.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  I don't even dream at night. I'm just asleep.

• 7:05Speaker 03

  Look, it's a full moon ritual and, you know, it's the same thing as manifesting. It's the same thing as, you know, tech bros fucking waking up at six in the morning and, I don't know, going to the gym as a ritual. It's just, it's ways that human beings compartmentalise big feelings and try and, you know, be happy.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you say you're getting more hippie-ish.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  I would say that.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  You say you're gonna end up as a fat witch, is what you said.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, I did say that.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Oh, what?

• 7:27Speaker 03

  I do think I probably, my future is that I will be a fat witch, some kind of big stone. I think I will be travelling to see a big stone.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  To recap, right, in the last episode, we dealt with Vincent van Gogh comprehensively. We never have to talk about them again. He was an insane Dutch man.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Who killed himself eventually.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Not for want of trying.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  And died in poverty.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  He was a fucking nightmare.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  He was a fucking nightmare.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Toughest hang, toughest pint.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Very tough hang, difficult pint.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  And, and yet because his sister-in-law was sort of fanatically promotes his artwork after death, he becomes this archetype of a tortured artist. And he's sort of this beginning of can you separate the art and all that? Now.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Charlie's a tortured fartist.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Yes, tortured fartist. Now, today, we're going to get into Pablo Picasso.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'd say these are the two biggest names in art.

• 8:17Speaker 03

  Yes, definitely.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Picasso, now I'm, I'm into Picasso.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  But you just like his view on young women.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  I like the man. I like the things he did as a man.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  The art, take it or leave it.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  But how he lived his life is a template for us all.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:59Speaker 05

  Couch from stains by covering it with plastic. Or you could talk to your local Geico agent. They'll give you a different kind of warm and fuzzy with personalized assistance for all your insurance needs. Like how you could be saving on your policies. So let your Nana cover her couch in plastic and let a local Geico agent help cover you, but not in plastic. To find a Geico agent near you, visit geico.com slash local.

• 9:23Speaker 00

  The wheel had roads. Electricity had the grid. Innovation needs infrastructure. Plaid makes AI work in finance. Visit plaid.com slash AI to learn more.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Picasso once said of women.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  There are two types of women.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  You're already loving this.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Goddesses and doormats.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  You know, what's that saying? You want to be a gentleman in the street and a, what's the thing?

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I want to be a goddess in the street.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  A doormat in the sheets. Because he has had, his legacy is tarred with accusations of alleged.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Alleged.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Alleged misogyny and abuse.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  But he's also, you know, separate to that or entwined with that, probably the most recognizable artistic style of the 20th century.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  There is a Citron called Picasso, right?

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Yes, there is. It's his signature.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  How many other artists could be named after a car? Hitler, I guess. You wouldn't call it Citron Hitler.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Citron Hitler, the golf Hitler. But that's true, actually. You're really bridging the gap there from art, from gay to straight, aren't you? Naming a car after an artist.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  But I guess Picasso bridges into the commercial age, right?

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Yes, you're right.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  So the modern idea of branding, near the end of his life, he kind of reaches that zone where you can become distilled into a brand. I guess Van Gogh has been, but not anything to do with him.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Obviously, he likes impressionism of Van Gogh. Bebe, what's your kind of artistic taste?

• 10:52Speaker 03

  Well, I really have a big interest in the pre-Raphaeli Brotherhood.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  We're talking about on Patreon.

• 10:57Speaker 03

  But you can talk about on Patreon.

• 11:00Speaker 03

  I think that my view towards art is, especially if you're somebody that entertains ideas of wanting to be an artist or a painter or something like that. If you actually go to art school, it turns out you have to learn about all the different kinds of disciplines. And when I was 20 and kind of confused with what I was going to do with my life, I vaguely thought I might go to art school. And realized that it's not all just pretty pictures of like girls smelling flowers in the garden. And that's actually mostly the pictures that I like.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Girl smelling.

• 11:24Speaker 03

  I very much am interested in sort of like Victorian, romantic.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Sorry, because that's a girl smelling flowers in the garden. That is an escape from your holiday with Charlie, which is girls smelling shit in an Airbnb.

• 11:37Speaker 03

  I like.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  You know, that's what art's about, isn't it? It's escapism.

• 11:42Speaker 03

  It is. That's what I was gonna say. I like, I like art that is really whimsical and dreamlike and feminine and.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, rather than the masculine visceral reality that you inhabit.

• 11:55Speaker 03

  Truly, truly.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Picasso is born in Malaga, Malaga, on the 25th of October, 1881.

• 12:03Speaker 03

  I was just in Malaga.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Bebe, would you like to place this? You're aware of our placing system by now.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  She's not, she's not great with dates.

• 12:10Speaker 03

  Okay, fuck you.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  I'm gonna say he was born in 1881.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:16Speaker 03

  Which is around 40 years after Queen Victoria has been made the queen.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  Okay, it's not bad.

• 12:24Speaker 03

  And it's just before.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Anything, pick anything.

• 12:31Speaker 03

  After Queen Victoria has been made the queen.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  And it's before.

• 12:34Speaker 03

  But it's before King Edward has made the king.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Okay, boom.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Waterline, that's good.

• 12:40Speaker 03

  Was that good? Sorry, guys. I'm really not good with dates.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  That's fine, that's fine. It's just a history podcast.

• 12:48Speaker 04

  Shall we do some drawing? Because it's an art episode.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  That's a good idea. Why don't you draw Bebe? You know what? We'll all draw throughout the episode.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  No, no, no. Can you draw the scene of Bebe on the kind of platform smelling your shit for the first time?

• 13:03Speaker 04

  Okay, yeah, yeah.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, just trying to recreate.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  Fucking engage me now.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. But no, no, no, it's an artistic, it's a really.

• 13:09Speaker 04

  No, I'm reclaiming it.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  It's an interesting moment.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  I think, I think all of us should draw throughout the episodes at different times.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  And so we get a sense of the different expressionisms that we all use.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  So Picasso was born in October, 1881. So weak was he at birth that the midwife thought he was a stillborn.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  And then supposedly the myth goes, an uncle blows cigar smoke into Picasso's face and he wakes up. And then starts breathing.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  That's a good uncle, right there.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  That's a great uncle.

• 13:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, sounds like your dad.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  It's a terrific uncle. So this is him, very weak as a boy, but a, but a loving mother and an artist father.

• 13:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Who specialized in drawing pigeon.

• 13:48Speaker 03

  So basically an early nephew baby.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  He's a fucking pigeon motherer, yeah. So supposedly, like, at the age of kind of toddler, my kid's age, he's drawing some things that adult artists are already.

• 13:57Speaker 03

  Apparently his first word was pencil.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Really?

• 13:59Speaker 02

  That shows he's a genius.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  In English.

• 14:01Speaker 03

  Oh, I imagine.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  So apparently, like, as a kid, he's drawing things that adult artists are like, whoa, I can't even do that.

• 14:11Speaker 03

  Yes, he's a prodigy.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  He's a prodigy, that's the worst.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  The number one thing about Picasso, probably where you start really respecting him, is how good at traditional art he was as a teenager, right?

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  He could do, he could do photorealistic paintings in his sleep. So he's chosen to make it look like a fucking drop trifle.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Picasso did a painting aged 13 that his dad, it made his dad found never to paint again.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  We saw that in real life for a show.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  We did.

• 14:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  So this is the painting we're getting up now? This is, he painted this one at 15 years old.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  So he goes to all these art schools, but basically he then spends his whole career kind of unlearning all the.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  Deconstructing.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Deconstructing.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Because he becomes so bored of being so perfect. Which is quite a like, all right, mate.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Quote, "It took me four years to paint like Raphael, but a lifetime to paint like a child." Pablo, you nailed it.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Would you say that the Berlin facial aesthetic is quite Picasso? Where it's like, you take a normal face.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  And it's like, how do I make it? It's Picasso.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm gonna put a piercing on my eyebrow. I'm gonna cut my hair in a stupid way that's deliberately bad, because that's how confident I am.

• 15:18Speaker 03

  But do you think that.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  You're a two and in disguise, because the hot people are dressing the same as twos.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  It's not a disguise, though. It's not a disguise. It's going, I'm owning being a two. I'm looking even uglier, which can make you think that I'm, makes you think I'm not ugly, because it makes you think I've made myself ugly. When actually, if I was trying to look fit, I'd still look ugly.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  That's what they're thinking.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  They're sneaky and they should be shot.

• 15:39Speaker 03

  But do you think that it's something interesting about genius? That if you do become so masterful so early on, that everything just does become boring? Do you think it leads to sort of this like sense of rebellion as a teenager? You don't, almost don't want your child to be too good at things, too smart, in case they get so bored that they end up having to become this.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  Pedophile.

• 16:01Speaker 03

  Crazy man.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  What's interesting about Picasso, though, is that that's not, it's quite a rare journey that someone is so perfect and so amazing as a kid, that they then become avant garde and they invent a whole new style. Normally, they just become like a child actor.

• 16:19Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, they just get burnt out.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  They just go to the head, Macaulay Culkin overdose, and that's it, right?

• 16:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  They get bored, it's sort of, that's their life.

• 16:25Speaker 03

  But that's the art form that he's creating, he has total control over. He, he's the one that can put his art out there. He has all the authority. Child actors become fucked up because they stop getting picked. There's another person above them that is the one that decides if they're going to. I think the reason why an artist is able to grow in this way is because they are truly the, like, the director of their own existence.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Why are you sniggering?

• 16:48Speaker 03

  Why?

• 16:51Speaker 02

  I don't want to talk about the podcast, so I don't know how good podcasting will be, but Charlie writes, wrote Picasso. Like, hey, no question, fine, that's just a normal Charlie search. But then I saw that, I was like, oh, for fuck's sake. Then I looked, and Charlie was like, he was looking at me like.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Just waited for me. Picasso, like, hey, no, like, so pleased with yourself.

• 17:12Speaker 03

  Do you think, what, if you, when you were a child, what would be the thing that you were best at that would have made your father go, okay, I'm never gonna do that thing anymore because my son is so good at it?

• 17:24Speaker 01

  He's got his fucking cock.

• 17:27Speaker 03

  Come on.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  Wait, he saw you, he's got his cock.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Fine, well, I'm never doing that.

• 17:31Speaker 03

  I can't do that.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  I'm never doing that again.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  I can't compete with that.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Again, I think I'm gonna suck and go fuck me. This kid's really got it.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  He's a genius.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  It'd probably be like, if I, because my family's all intensely musical, really, really musical. Grandad's got an OBE.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  For what? An OBO?

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Not an OBO, no, an OBE for, he, he, he used to run like the National Youth Orchestra and stuff. And then my dad, my dad was in a band.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  My dad was, my dad was in a band before I was born, when I was born, and then he was like, this, I haven't got any money. So then became a teacher.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  But, but my mum used to, could have been, was a concert pianist for a time and stuff like, they're all very musical. So like, if we went to church at Christmas or something, they'd all be singing the Descan, the like, the, and I'm just going, ah.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  You didn't have that talent.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  No, no, I played double bass for a bit. I just got so bored because I couldn't do, play bass how I wanted to play. I wanted to play bass like Jack O'Pastore, so you won't know who that is.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  Is it Oscar's brother?

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Bass God, not Oscar's brother, no. He's Bass God, right?

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Right, right, right. That's what you thought you were, but you were, this was in your Gavin Plum era, right?

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Yes, I'm, I'm, I'm fat, wearing a Hawaiian shirt, wanted to be Bass God.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  But I couldn't do it, obviously.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  And I also didn't, couldn't be asked to practise.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  So this is putting Evan Watson off our lunch.

• 18:47Speaker 03

  Maybe your parents wouldn't have approved of this type of bass playing.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  I would, I would be not invited to Evan Watson's party, I'd go home and take it out on my bass guitar.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  He sounded like Troy, you know?

• 18:58Speaker 02

  You know, he was, he did an audition to be Dudley.

• 19:01Speaker 03

  Oh, I know.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:02Speaker 03

  I know.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Makes a lot of sense.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  So let's get into Picasso's personal life. Because from a young age, I think maybe age 12 or 13, his dad basically goes like, oh, son, check this out, takes him to a brothel. And from that point onwards, his relationship to sex never really changes.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Well, is it, I, I know people whose first sexual experience has been their dad taking them to brothels.

• 19:23Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  And I think around the world.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  I've got friends who's first, yeah.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  But it is quite a regular thing. I think that's completely mad.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  I thought you were saying that's completely normal.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:31Speaker 03

  I know some boys at school that had that experience too.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Really? Their dad took them to a brothel? I mean, father, son bonding is difficult. It is tough.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  You don't want father, son bondage.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Bondage, yeah, you don't want father, son bondage. Father, son, baby, SM, that's where that stops being cute.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  But I guess the idea is that you sort of, you, you, you, you see off the new ball.

• 19:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  In a brothel.

• 19:50Speaker 03

  And it probably makes sense.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  It's your first, you know?

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Because by the time then you have your first actual like emotional experience.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  But also in terms of muses and the way that he uses women later on in his life for his art.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Allegedly, allegedly.

• 20:01Speaker 03

  If you see women as providing you a service, whether that's sexual pleasure or artistic merit. I mean, maybe it cements something in his brain early doors that he associates women with use. And you, you exit after you have extracted their value.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Hmm. So he's 13 and his dad takes him to a Spanish brothel, but his dad is Spanish, so I guess the.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Spanish.

• 20:21Speaker 03

  Just to say brothel.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  It's not like, oh, I went to a Spanish brothel. Ah, okay, well, fine, fair enough. They love it over there.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Like tapas, you like have a little bit, you know?

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Dip it, have a bit of anal over here, a bit of sucky sucky over here, and then we'll get a big, big vaj for the table.

• 20:35Speaker 03

  You're going so quick. I'm not gonna be able to keep up with any of this.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Quick?

• 20:38Speaker 02

  We're quick in certain subjects. Are they talking about muff, pedos?

• 20:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  Dildos.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  We're very quick 14 year old boys.

• 20:45Speaker 03

  Even in the last year, since I came on, you really have.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  You got quicker, you think?

• 20:48Speaker 03

  Oh god, yes.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  Quicker than last time.

• 20:50Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, that's amazing.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  But it's still, it's still the same soundboard though.

• 20:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  It's just Fred again, just going, just doing that.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  So work, sex and tobacco are his addictions supposedly. He's married twice, has four children with three women. And yes, allegedly several women suffer severe psychological distress after a relationship.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  Most women have psychological distress anyway though.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, and two attempts suicide, but again, how much can he be, you know?

• 21:15Speaker 02

  You can't put his.

• 21:16Speaker 03

  What's his amazing quote about women are born to suffer?

• 21:19Speaker 04

  Cum buckets.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  Charlie?

• 21:22Speaker 03

  What did you say?

• 21:23Speaker 04

  A cum bucket.

• 21:23Speaker 03

  Cum buckets.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  Charlie.

• 21:25Speaker 03

  Cum buckets.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  What's Picasso's amazing quote? Women are cum buckets?

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Charlie, that's disgusting.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  As Picasso once said, women are cum buckets.

• 21:34Speaker 03

  Like vessels for suffering.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Machines for suffering.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Machines for suffering. Not vessels.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  That's quite a misogynistic term. They're machines.

• 21:41Speaker 03

  Machines, of course.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  The problem with the art is like, obviously there's now been that kind of Hannah Gadsby relook at, you know, artists and it's like problematising them. But it is undeniably romantic and it produces great art.

• 21:51Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  This, this, we, we talk about it now and there's a documentary saying it's awful they treated women like this, but women themselves find the ideal romantic in, you know, in art, don't you think? The idea of the suffering woman still is as an artistic archetype.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  It's still people who he would play up to, it's still what the great artists often use.

• 22:11Speaker 03

  There's something interesting because his, his like, his mania and his, the way that he constantly reinvents himself with all of these different eras. Maybe because of boredom, maybe because he's too talented. To me, in a way, his crazy life is actually quite feminine. But because he's so masculine about it, because he doesn't apologise for himself, we associate it as being this very masculine man, but.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  I think he's just like an unapologetic, apologetic woman.

• 22:36Speaker 03

  The reason why he's so artistically interesting is because of, there's this femininity to it as well, with the mania and with the

• 22:44Speaker 03

  constantly reinventing himself.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  He's Catholic.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, yeah, he's Catholic.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  I'd say it's Catholicism.

• 22:48Speaker 03

  Really?

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:49Speaker 04

  Is it hard to work when you're in love like this?

• 22:57Speaker 03

  It's hard to work when you're in love. I find it hard to work being in love. Yeah, I get distracted all the time.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  So Picasso's granddaughter.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  You have ADHD.

• 23:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's true.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  And you were struggling beforehand.

• 23:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, and to be honest, I'm actually just really lazy and jobless.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  So I don't really have to work anyway.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 23:11Speaker 03

  But not now. I'm gonna become the Erica Kirk of fucking Mamboruiski.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  She's saying she's gonna Erica Kirk me. I am fake, fake my assassination and then try and become.

• 23:21Speaker 03

  I'll really live up to my potential when Horatio gets assassinated.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  We are joined by Finn vs History's very own Erica Kirk.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Get the video of her dancing like three days after the, it is crazy.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  Do you think she might have killed him?

• 23:33Speaker 01

  No, I just, I just think she's, I don't think she's taking it that badly. So Picasso's granddaughter is the first time where I suppose his legacy is complete, is really compromised.

• 23:46Speaker 03

  That's not true. So many of his wives wrote books, my life.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  But his wife doesn't write books.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. But they're called his wife. He's not had sex with his granddaughter, so she's objective.

• 23:55Speaker 03

  Aha, that's true.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  So he quotes.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  He's not gandying her?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  Doesn't give her the gandhi treatment.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Quote, "He submitted women to his animal sexuality, tamed them, bewitched them, ingested them and crushed them onto his canvas. After he had spent many nights extracting their essence, once they were bled dry, he would dispose of them."

• 24:15Speaker 02

  So that's Picasso's granddaughter, but your new show that you're doing in Edinburgh is about being amused and wanting to be amused. The whole idea of the show, if I'm not wrong, is that, is about what happens if you don't even get picked to be amused. If you, like, think about all the uglier women who didn't get ingested onto canvas.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  And like, you talk about it, it's like, it's awful how you treat these women, but think about the ones who don't get that, they would still be looking at the women who.

• 24:36Speaker 03

  Well, because I think that actually as women, even though we know that this kind of treatment

• 24:42Speaker 03

  and, I don't know, like boiling down to your essence and then being extracted, whatever, we, we know that it's kind of toxic, but at the same time, it's all we know. So therefore it's difficult to not desire your own objectification in a way. Like it, it's, it's difficult to not want to be amused when that's seen as the most important thing.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Or is it just that it's still, even though you're amused, you're still being liked?

• 25:01Speaker 03

  Exactly, you're being observed.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  You're being desired.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, being desired and being observed and that makes you feel like you're real.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  It changes the Fritsch case entirely.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Well, exactly.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  You're still being liked.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Well, he liked me.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  He liked me. At least someone out there's.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  Also, if somebody.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  More than some people can say.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Someone out there's blown my back out.

• 25:22Speaker 03

  If somebody's really talented and somebody's like seen to be a great artist and he picks you.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:26Speaker 03

  And he takes you seriously.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  You got picked.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yes, you're picked first.

• 25:30Speaker 03

  No, but it does make you probably feel like you probably are capable of great things yourself.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  So in 1927, Picasso.

• 25:36Speaker 03

  That's how I feel that Horatio's picked me.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Right, I see. Picasso, so he, he's Picasso, age 45. In 1927, he meets Marie Therese Walter, who was 17.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  That's you ripping paper of the moon.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Now, this is game, okay? Game recognised game. He meets a 17 year old outside a department store in Paris and says, I am Picasso, you and I are gonna do great things together.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  That's, that's his classic line.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  That's what he messaged me on Instagram.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  That, become love, you're pulled. It's essentially that, right? Now, Marie Therese is the real, is probably the worst of the abuse, maybe? I think so.

• 26:14Speaker 02

  It depends how you see abuse.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, alleged, the alleged abuse. Yeah, not Mother Teresa, Charlie, not Mother Teresa. He does not sexually abuse Mother Teresa. So he, yeah, so.

• 26:22Speaker 04

  Has there been another one?

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Sorry?

• 26:23Speaker 04

  Are there any more Mother Terrises or is there, is it like?

• 26:25Speaker 02

  It's not like the Dalai Lama, no. It's not a hereditary sort of, or like a.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he can, he repeatedly reinvents himself, as you said. So at what point does he, is it basically when he's like in his twenties that he starts just being the Picasso that we recognise? When does he unlearn? When does he stop doing this incredible?

• 26:45Speaker 02

  It seems like his twenties or even younger than that. It seems like pretty much from the off.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  So he has a, his so-called blue period.

• 26:51Speaker 04

  Blue balls.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  1901 to 1904, which follows the suicide of his close friend.

• 26:56Speaker 03

  He shot somebody who turned his proposal down.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  So this is artist Carl Casam, Casamés. In 1901, he proposed to a model in Paris.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  She rejects him, he draws a pistol and fires at her. The bullet missed but knocks her to the ground. He thinks he's killed her, so kills himself.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  That's an amazing.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  So you were saying that you're, you fucked your engagement a bit.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Not quite as bad as.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  No, no, no, this is, that's a real botched job.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  You've really fucked your engagement up. How did it go? Well, I, well, she's fine, but I'm now dead.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  I imagine that happened all in about 10 seconds.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  I'd love to see that 10 second video. That's incredible. No.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Then she gets up and is like, fuck, Christ.

• 27:39Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  So anyway, so but this inspires Picasso's kind of more somber period. So, okay, so these are, these are still quite conventional.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  This is emo Picasso.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  But it's still quite conventional, quite sort of blue.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  It's the 1900s, so it's right on the turn of the century. The surrealism hasn't fully come in.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  No, and Cubism will break through just after this, sort of around 1907, 1907. Cubism, he is one of the inventors of, there's a school.

• 28:01Speaker 03

  Yes, co-founder.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  A Cubist school, which is a slur in my head. He's a member of the Cubist school.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Rather than depicting objects from a 2D normal viewpoint.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  They depict them as cubes.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  They're just fuck, I don't know.

• 28:15Speaker 03

  You just see it from loads of different perspectives, right?

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  Or maybe it's kind of influenced by sculpture, isn't it?

• 28:20Speaker 01

  So this is, this is more Picasso than we'd understand. So what, what year is this?

• 28:24Speaker 02

  This is more like the Citron Picasso.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:26Speaker 03

  That doesn't really do anything for me.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  What, this stuff?

• 28:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  Why not? Because there's no people in it, it's just guitars.

• 28:31Speaker 03

  I think it's probably just because maybe it's, it's influenced so much of art through the decades and then even advertising, I think the colouring and everything like that. For some reason to me, feels a little bit like an advert on the tube.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's commercialised now.

• 28:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%.

• 28:48Speaker 03

  It reminds me of those graphic design people, you know, the, the people that have become really popular in like sort of adverts for like oat milk, that have really big bodies and tiny heads. A bit like your body, your fucking body.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Don't point at him and say that, that's so rude. You've got to point with your finger up, just like, just like your body.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Massive bodies and tiny heads, like you, yeah, yeah.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Sharp point as well.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  To me, it screams a little bit like 2010s millennial graphic design.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  This is the first time, this is the first time you've been on the pod since your fat Elvis comment.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, you stroke, struck again.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, the second, a second comment has hit the, oh no.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  I love that fat Elvis thing you did in your poster.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Just Elvis, baby.

• 29:27Speaker 03

  I think growing up.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  To be fair, that was one of the funniest things, funniest thing that ever happened.

• 29:30Speaker 03

  I really am sorry about that thing, but I think growing up is the process of realising. We all think that we're good people and I actually don't ever think about anything before it comes out of my mouth and I'm only learning to do that now. I was going to say something very rude to him yesterday and I thought to myself, no, that's going to happen. That turns out that they mean it, when your mum told you, you have to think before you speak. I actually never did that and I really apologise for the fat Elvis.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, famously.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Famously.

• 29:53Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Always thinking.

• 29:54Speaker 03

  Sorry about the fat Elvis thing.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Shall we have a look, should we check in your drawer?

• 29:57Speaker 03

  You're looking great shape now.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  So Charlie, just, what's this work called?

• 30:03Speaker 04

  My baby.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  It's called Your Baby.

• 30:05Speaker 04

  My baby.

• 30:06Speaker 03

  Did you draw my tits?

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Did you draw her tits out?

• 30:11Speaker 03

  Did you draw your tits out?

• 30:12Speaker 01

  I would say that looks, I would say that looks like a baboon with tits, is what I would say, but I'm, I'm on top.

• 30:17Speaker 02

  Is this her smelling, is this the moment she's smelling?

• 30:19Speaker 03

  Why am I naked? Why have you drawn me my tits out?

• 30:23Speaker 02

  You said she got her tits out when she smelt the shit.

• 30:26Speaker 04

  Possibly.

• 30:27Speaker 03

  It's very Picasso-esque.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:29Speaker 03

  Meaning I hate it.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Okay, that's fine. Well, we'll make sure we get some close-ups for the people at home, but that's, so that's Charlie's. You've given her a real monkey face, is what I'd say, that's what I'd say.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  But you know, you can't, you can't rush art.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  No, you can't.

• 30:42Speaker 03

  My boobs look good though, thank you.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  So now he had a very weird relationship to animals, Picasso. So he had a goat was walking around his house.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  He was fascinated by goats.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Esmeralda the goat.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, he couldn't believe his luck.

• 30:52Speaker 03

  Is it such a common theme among like quirky male artists?

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Goats.

• 30:56Speaker 03

  No, that they have animals wandering around their houses. I wonder if it's like a.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Affectate, affectation.

• 31:01Speaker 03

  It does feel like it's actually an affectation to me.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  So he found an injured owl and kept it and then he had a whole thing. So in his, throughout the 30s, he basically has this alter ego of a Minotaur.

• 31:11Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Which is kind of like half man, half bull. And then he would depict the Minotaur engaging in kind of these violent erotic encounters.

• 31:20Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  And then people now interpret that as, that's like him basically raping his girlfriends.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  But again.

• 31:27Speaker 03

  But it's justifying.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  His personality with the rapist.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it's justifying, isn't it? If you say that half of you is a monster, like a mythical creature that cannot help his own bad behaviour.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  But if you're aware of it enough to put it in a painting.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  Pretty sick.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Then it's like.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  But it's still justifying. It would be much braver to say that you, the man, the human being, has done wrong things. It's just like, oh, you murdered someone, you go, oh, sorry, it's because half of me is, um.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm a calf cow, sorry.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, sorry, your honour.

• 31:50Speaker 03

  That's the elf part of me.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  That was the cow part.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was the cow bit, sorry.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:55Speaker 04

  Would it be more powerful if they had been raping him? I think that would have done more for, for me.

• 32:02Speaker 06

  Kayak searches and compares hundreds of travel sites, but unless I repeat the word kayak, Kayak thinks you won't remember that. So Kayak asked me to say kayak as many times as possible. Kayak. Kayak. Kayak. Kayak. Kayak. Kayak. Kai. Ooh. Ak. Kai, Kai, Kai, Kai, kayak. Kayak, kayak, kayak. Search, compare and save on your trip. Kayak. Got that right.

• 32:33Speaker 05

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• 33:03Speaker 00

  The wheel had roads, electricity had the grid, innovation needs infrastructure. Plaid makes AI work in finance. Visit plaid.com slash AI to learn more.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  So here's, now we should probably get in, let's get into the more of the actual, the alleged abuse, right? So.

• 33:26Speaker 03

  He burned one of his mistress's houses down, didn't he? Or his wife's house.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  I don't know what she did though.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Well, one of my favourite things about Picasso is that at some point, so he has this, he, he, he's 17 year old girl.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  A woo.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  A woo, who he's with and in the modern parlance, you now say that he groomed her.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  But again, I think that's a loaded term.

• 33:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  There was an age gap.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Love is love.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, love is love, all right? But he took her as a mistress or either that or he had another mistress. Wait in the car.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Either he had another mistress, right? And at some point they discover each other and they confront each other and he then makes them fight like Pokemon in his studio.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Oh, that's good.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Isn't that the most like artistic thing?

• 34:15Speaker 03

  He said it was the greatest moment of his life, wasn't it?

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Well, it would be.

• 34:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's incredible. Who won? Do we know?

• 34:20Speaker 01

  I don't know, do we know?

• 34:21Speaker 03

  I guess maybe because it's proof that two beautiful things can love you at once, that they can.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  But it's going back, she's saying about being desired.

• 34:27Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  That's the male version.

• 34:28Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  A woman wants to be painted, a man wants two women to fucking fight over it.

• 34:32Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Gouging their eyes out. So that's Marie Torez and then one of the other women, I can't remember who.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  I mean, you, you both obviously thrive off of people watching you and, and you think that you would get two.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Not women though, not women.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  Well, I'm sure that there are some women.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  It's not as cool when there's two Star Wars kids fucking lightsabring each other.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  I was going to say, I was going to say.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  They've got big sticks.

• 34:53Speaker 03

  Would you get some of your patrons to fight? You could, you could do one of those video simulations that they do like, you know, 10 rhinoceroses against like a thousand Roman armies. So you could do your patrons against.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  One woman.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  One woman. Well, they look at the eye, they'd all just fall over.

• 35:09Speaker 03

  Oh, no, no, no.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  So he had the blue period, after the blue period, he had the rose period, right?

• 35:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, where he painted into harlequins, he was basically really happy.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, so what, do we know why he got happy? Is it because he had two women fighting over him?

• 35:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I guess he would be moved on.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  So let's have a look at some of the, when does he start getting to that, that classic Picasso style that we know? What time is that?

• 35:28Speaker 02

  The blue period, the rose period, and then I guess in the, he's in the kind of golden age of, you'd argue of Paris artistically potentially, the 1920s.

• 35:37Speaker 03

  Going to Montmartre, going to the Amelie Cafe. He must have been having a great time.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, in Midnight in Paris, though, he goes back to this period.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  Picasso, Hemingway.

• 35:46Speaker 03

  It's the only film that Horatio will re-watch.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Midnight in Paris?

• 35:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, he doesn't believe in it.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  He'll talk to me about it as well. Picasso is such a hoarder, he doesn't actually sell many of his paintings, he just keeps all his paintings around. But only, he doesn't even let his fingernails go to waste because the Spanish are all superstitious like that.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Doesn't leave any body hair around.

• 36:05Speaker 04

  Where's he putting it?

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Hey?

• 36:06Speaker 04

  Where's he putting it all?

• 36:07Speaker 01

  I don't know. Much like where the fuck do you put your laundry? Much like just everywhere.

• 36:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, everywhere.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Oh, so 1937, so two women accidentally arrive at his Parisian studio at the same time. Walter demands Picasso choose between them. Picasso then just goes, go on girls, have a go at it. And then, yeah, he said they began to wrestle. It's one of my choicest memories.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, he kept on painting, he said.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was like, well, fucking yeah, I'm going to paint this.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, a bit of peace and quiet finally.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  So during World War One, he basically just cops out, stays in France.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Because Spanish Civil War, everyone's flooding in. It's like war tourism. And he's actually from Spain and he just fucking dips.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Sorry, World War One, he misses out.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Oh, of course.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Sorry. Uh, World War Two, he lives in occupied Paris. But he's probably most known for Guernica, which is the, uh, depicting the bombing, alleged bombing of the Lufaffa, of a Spanish town.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Now, we've talked about this from the very early days of the pod.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that he made a mistake and he fucked it. And then they were like, is that Guernica? He's like, yeah, maybe.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, maybe. Yeah. I think he was trying to draw a horse and then he had several goes and he didn't change paper. And then they went, what's that?

• 37:19Speaker 02

  Was this like an abstract interpretation of the Guernica bombings?

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. That. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you said, yeah. Supposedly, a German officer saw a photograph of it and said, did you do this? And he said, no, you did.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  So he's on Reddit.

• 37:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what I was thinking. He doesn't strike me as a super political figure, even if, um, people might interpret him as such.

• 37:40Speaker 02

  Would you say is he, is he a less difficult pint? He's definitely a less difficult pint than Van Gogh.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Oh, I'd love to go for a pint of Picasso. Tell him about the time that your two, two side pieces had a go with each other. That'd be fun. Van Gogh is just too much.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  A bit more a laugh.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's a laugh. Yeah, he's a laugh. Um, he would sometimes offer, uh, a signed napkin as payment after he'd had a meal at a restaurant.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  I mean, that'd be amazing. To be that iconic, that you can just, any meal. Imagine that, you just scribble on a piece of paper and it's breakfast, lunch and dinner. You're just fucking.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  But Van Gogh can never do that.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  No, because no one liked him.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  He'd be like, no, we need money. You smell. Who are you? Who are you?

• 38:15Speaker 02

  Who the fuck are you?

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Why are you bleeding out the side of your head? So he realised that the, yeah, the signatures were, so I guess he, he kind of made it in his lifetime.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  And it's the opposite of Van Gogh.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  He really enjoyed it.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  He loved it. Absolutely loved it.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  There's probably nothing better than being super rich and just doing it through painting. And then you're already good at painting. It feels like you get everything.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  But then, so Guernica's, I think, the fact that everyone knows him for this is part of the reason that everyone then starts chipping him going, actually, he was really abusive. Because there's a photo called The Weeping Woman. Can you get that up? Where he basically, in order to get this, he made one of his girlfriends just repeatedly cry over and over again. So, and like, um, not, but like made her cry, not like act crying, like actually was horrible to her, um, demeaning her, et cetera. And then got this. And when you see this painting, you're like, that, you could have just done that without a woman there. It looks nothing like a wo- do you know what I mean? It's so abstract. It's like, you didn't need to do that.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, but when people talk about, you know, this is an iconic painting. It's a painting that all.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Dora Mar, sorry. That's the other one who fights, um.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  She's in the red corner.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  And then Therese Waters in the blue one.

• 39:25Speaker 03

  She was an artist as well.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  But The Weeping Woman is an iconic painting and we remember for hundreds and hundreds of years. Is it so bad that a woman got, you know, was crying?

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Well, stop clock, isn't it?

• 39:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, but everyone was like, it's so problematic. A woman was crying.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  It's like, all right. But look, we've got a painting now forever.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  That's true. That's true.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  A woman cried. We should cancel him.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  What did she do?

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  What did she ever do? Oh, she was an artist. All right, fair enough. But then, quote, "She was known to Picasso as being always weeping because of their turbulent relationship."

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Well, uh, when I, I lost my phone and wallet on holiday, BB, we were stuck with just one car between us and it was very tough getting home. And BB's approach to any sort of situation of stress is you scream cry immediately. Would you not say?

• 40:09Speaker 03

  I would say.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  So like, if it, yeah, immediately.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Scream cry.

• 40:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's kind of like.

• 40:13Speaker 03

  Not scream cry.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Pretty much scream cry.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  More to a hundred.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think you say you're taught this by your mother, right? Which is like a defence mechanism for.

• 40:20Speaker 03

  I think that, I, I, well, it's partly the way that I deal with stress.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  Deal is an interesting word.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Respond.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  The way that.

• 40:27Speaker 03

  Fine. Respond. Okay, fine. Respond.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:31Speaker 03

  Um, it's probably the, the way that I respond to stress.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:34Speaker 03

  But I also think there's, uh.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  Uber cancelled. That's what you say. If, if an Uber cancels to the airport, this is you getting that immediately.

• 40:41Speaker 03

  I think it's, it's, it was more than an Uber cancelling. It was that I didn't realise that with Ryanair, if you don't check in online, that they charge you for late booking. And because I didn't have an actual in-person card, because, well, I didn't bring my cards out with me. I thought I was going to be able to use Apple Pay.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Blew the cobwebs off.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  Why would you? Why would you?

• 41:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, I didn't fucking expect this.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  What do you mean my wallet? What do you mean?

• 41:05Speaker 03

  Seven cards stolen.

• 41:08Speaker 03

  Um, but yeah, I think it's also a female thing. It's a, you know, there's, there's, there's strength in weakness. My mum taught me when I was a little girl, when you get in trouble, you cry. Because it makes men confused and slightly angry. And, uh, and they just don't, they don't want to deal with it.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  I'm looking at this painting, hearing that.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  When you're in trouble, cry, right? So she's crying of her own accord.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  And he's just painting it, isn't he?

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, as a little girl, you can do that as getting out of trouble, but.

• 41:37Speaker 03

  No, but as a woman too. It's about fawning. It's a fawning, it's a fawning, um, uh, reflex that is like actually something in, like, all of animal nature. It's about making yourself small. It's about making yourself vulnerable. And it like tends to get me out of a lot of troublesome situations.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Because I had to fix it, but basically.

• 41:56Speaker 03

  So nasty. He's so nasty.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  No, but I think when you reach a certain age, do you think the scream crying will be less, uh?

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Will it be less effective, do you think?

• 42:06Speaker 03

  It probably will get less effective. Yeah.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Post-menopause. Come on, love.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Come on, love, you're fucking.

• 42:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, but the thing is, maybe that's my way of responding to it. It's like I'm upset with the fact that I know that it's like, this is going to be a very temporary period of my life where I can make use of it. And so why not make use of it?

• 42:20Speaker 02

  That's a good point. That's a good point.

• 42:21Speaker 03

  The world gives a lot of opportunities for women to cry. Hey, is that crazy to say?

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Go on, Johnny.

• 42:25Speaker 04

  When did, when did you last see Horatio truly cry?

• 42:28Speaker 03

  I have seen him cry twice in our whole relationship when they were both at films.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  And I bet those films had subtitles. Wanker.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  I think one of them might have actually.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Crazy. Imagine crying at a film with subtitles.

• 42:43Speaker 03

  No, it was Waves.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:44Speaker 03

  And it was, um, it's on the Five Flies.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Never heard of it.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  You know, I didn't think I cried at that. The anime.

• 42:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, you did cry.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  But then I think she turned the lights on.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  Crying at anime. Fucking hell.

• 42:55Speaker 03

  It's the saddest film ever. Is it called?

• 42:57Speaker 02

  It's a really sad drawing. It's a really sad load of drawings.

• 43:00Speaker 03

  Well, just like that, it's a really sad drawing.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  Crying at anime.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  But then she turned the lights on because she was like so shocked that I was crying that she wanted to capture the moment. But it's just like completely, it made me never want to cry again because you were like, you, you wanted to remember it so much. She turned the main light on.

• 43:13Speaker 03

  You can judge me, but I also think that there's something powerful in like letting yourself release emotions and there's clearly something artistically interesting about it.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  So Picasso.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  No one's saying you're holding it in.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Picasso, by the seventies, I'm also just thinking about when my dad met your mum.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  Oh my God, that was incredible.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  And then my dad, because he's, uh, because he's, he's basically a gay man, to put it short. Uh, because he's an active listener.

• 43:33Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  For a man in his sixties, very, very rare.

• 43:35Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Your mother had never met a man who actually listened to her. And you, I saw kind of her entire worldview change.

• 43:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Over, like in seconds. And then she was so entranced by my dad's spell that she missed helping you with your show, which should be done every day for a month.

• 43:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, now, my dad is a witch doctor.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  To a certain, he's a dangerous man.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  He's a doctor for witches.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Yes, sorry. He's a dangerous man to a certain, um, age woman.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Anyway, so by the seventies, Picasso is the most famous artist alive.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  So he lives to see his own success.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  And he dies in, in seventy-three, aged ninety-one.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Working till the end. Um, his final wife, uh, committed suicide in nineteen eighty-six. So, you know, like thirteen years later. So it's obviously got nothing to do with that.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  You know, what happened in those thirteen years?

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Must've been sad. Anyway.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Who was the other guy?

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:27Speaker 03

  Also, you know, um, his, his son, uh, died of alcoholism. Um, people think maybe it was linked to, uh, suicide or depression.

• 44:39Speaker 03

  But also his grandson.

• 44:42Speaker 03

  Sharp. Can't fucking concentrate. So, um, but didn't his grandson also commit suicide? I feel like a lot of people are, uh.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  It's like Love Island.

• 44:50Speaker 03

  In the Picasso circle, like they, they kill themselves or they end up so fucked up. And I think it's very interesting when you think about like genius artists with toxicity. It's almost like this.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  They suck everyone.

• 45:02Speaker 03

  Resource that sucks the soil dry from everyone around them.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  Certainly think if you're like an iconic artist, it, it colours everything around you. And if you then raise kids who are born with the money from your art, but don't have the talent.

• 45:14Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  They feel this sense of imposter syndrome that leads to depression. Stanley Kubrick's grandson is now started on Instagram and it's quite funny. He's basically like, I'm completely talentless.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  This is great.

• 45:25Speaker 02

  But I've got loads of money. Here's me on holiday. It's basically him on like jet skis, him going to like villas and like, yeah, sadly, I'm, yeah, I, I can't do anything.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  I'm richly rubbish at anything.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  He can't even, he's filming his feet the most of the time. He can't even hold it to his face. So he's probably hardly a chip off the old block, is he?

• 45:42Speaker 02

  I mean, Brooklyn Beckham. Beckham's less aware of it than Kubrick's grandson.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Cruz Beckham, phenomenally talented, what a musician. It's probably my, probably my gayest opinion is that I, I genuinely love the music of Cruz Beckham.

• 45:52Speaker 03

  Isn't he like seventeen?

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's nineteen. Yep.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 45:57Speaker 03

  You really are a very surprising creature then.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  No, I am. I am. I contain mulch shoes.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  And that, that multitude is Cruz Beckham.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  I like the Nazis, I like Cruz Beckham.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  Ben Beckham over a barrel.

• 46:07Speaker 03

  I love that moment in.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  Bend it like Cruz Beckham over a barrel.

• 46:11Speaker 03

  In the posh spice documentary on Netflix, there was this really nice moment where David and Victoria are talking about their kids and it's intercut with a montage of them all in the kitchen together. This is before the Brooklyn Beckham.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  We get some Kleenex in here.

• 46:24Speaker 03

  But they basically both talk to camera and they, their, their kids are all chatting. They're all together in the kitchen. And yes, they all come across a bit bimbo-ish. But David says so earnestly to camera, they could have turned out to be arseholes. And I'm, I'm really, really proud of arse for making them not be arseholes.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  Grinding on all the kids as well.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:43Speaker 03

  I mean, this was before this conflict, but I, I think that it's very difficult.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  She's talking ponos on his cocky.

• 46:47Speaker 03

  If you're a successful artist, how, how do you raise children that are not going to be influenced by the idea that you're some genius? It's like you're borrow, I almost think it's like when you take drugs and you borrow happiness from the next few days and you have this terrible come down. Maybe if you're a genius, you borrow all of the energy and life force from the children that you're going to have. It's going to take generations for people to have enough backstory and coolness to be talented again. You're kind of selfish if you become a great artist and you have a family because it doesn't give your children a fucking chance.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  I think that's what a fucking untalented artist is.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've done it for my kids, been crap art.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, so now Picasso becomes a surrealist officially, he's a card carrying surrealist. Now surreal, yeah surrealism I have a problem with.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  Why? Well, you think it's random?

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Well, it is.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  So you don't like surrealism?

• 47:36Speaker 01

  It's the start of random.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  How do you not like surrealism? Do you not like surrealism, Charlie?

• 47:39Speaker 04

  I don't, I've never met it.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  You're a very surreal person, though.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, you are, a Dali painting.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  So he, so the whole point of surrealism is it comes out of World War One where they think, well, the realism caused this like nightmare. So, and it's all about Sigmund Freud's theories of the unconscious and why don't we paint dreams? Why don't we paint those unconscious thoughts? Why don't we render that? And things have to make sense.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Semi PTSD from the war.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  You start to have to look into what's going on in the mind.

• 48:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Because people's faces now look like Picasso's paintings in real life. So, you know, they're thinking, right, well, this is a bit crazy, a little random.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  A bit random.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  That's what you say to a World War One person.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, my nose is by my eyes.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Why is your nose by your ear?

• 48:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  There's a thing called dadaism as well.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, type in dadaism.

• 48:24Speaker 03

  Which is about anti-art, isn't it?

• 48:26Speaker 01

  So am I dadaist?

• 48:27Speaker 03

  Oh, absolutely.

• 48:28Speaker 02

  Simon, you'd hate dadaism. It is the definition of random. Scroll that, yeah.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Dada?

• 48:33Speaker 02

  Mona Lisa with a moustache.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Hey, what?

• 48:35Speaker 02

  It's quite smug, Mona Lisa with a moustache, a bit random.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Oh god, it's teatowel art.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:39Speaker 04

  My first official wank, did you see it?

• 48:41Speaker 01

  What, what, what, what do you mean official?

• 48:44Speaker 02

  What?

• 48:44Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 48:45Speaker 02

  Does the Queen cut it with a red ribbon before you just started?

• 48:47Speaker 01

  With the Guinness Book of Records there. What do you mean official wank?

• 48:51Speaker 03

  What's that mean, jolly?

• 48:52Speaker 04

  That poster.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  So is that, is that dada?

• 48:56Speaker 03

  That's the fucking picture you drew of me!

• 48:58Speaker 01

  So is that dada, is that?

• 49:00Speaker 04

  Dunno.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Getting the Mona Lisa's chebs out?

• 49:02Speaker 02

  No, I don't think so. Wait, wait, wait, did you actually wank to that?

• 49:05Speaker 04

  I had that on my wall for, for a long time.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  Who, who put it there?

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Wanking, looking at your wall?

• 49:09Speaker 02

  Your mum put it there.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  You're wanking, looking at your wall?

• 49:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, she was on there.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  But your wanking is something that's on your wall?

• 49:15Speaker 02

  So are you genuinely?

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  This is like walking through a museum, wanking at the pictures, crazy. Normally you're hunched over looking at a magazine.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  Genuinely, the first time you came was at the Mona Lisa?

• 49:26Speaker 04

  Successfully, yeah.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Successfully. That's unbelievable.

• 49:28Speaker 03

  What have you been trying to do before?

• 49:29Speaker 04

  Just trying to come by, I was just watching porn like TV, it was horrible.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  What, you got Homer Simpson in an armchair with a fucking beard, just like?

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, boring, boring, boring.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Changing channel. But that did it for you?

• 49:41Speaker 01

  So artists believe that if, if rationality had created the violence of war, irrationality could be used to create beauty.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  I understand it up to this point. Uh, but then you get to a dream surrealism, um, where they paint really lifelike, but it's things that would never-

• 49:54Speaker 02

  Photorealist but mental shit.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Um, so this is kind of Pink Floyd album cover stuff, right? So objects are bigger than they should be.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  This is Dali, right?

• 50:02Speaker 01

  So we're getting into Salvador Dali, who was born in the, what, early 1900s, I think?

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:07Speaker 03

  He was a massive Picasso fanboy, right?

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Was he? So he's Spanish as well, I presume? And he becomes the face of surrealism and his face now lives on in the shit moustaches of bad improv troops at the Edinburgh Festival.

• 50:21Speaker 03

  He does look like a Victorian villain, doesn't he?

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Yes, he does, the child catcher.

• 50:24Speaker 03

  It makes sense that he actually was a fascist.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  So, uh, was he a fascist?

• 50:28Speaker 02

  He was like a Francoist. It's a bit muddy waters, but he certainly didn't hate surrealism.

• 50:32Speaker 03

  In fact, some kind of like quirky surrealist art fans now certainly find it interesting that he's the sort of face of the surrealist art movement when it's actually something that's really associated with communism and a lot of sort of anti-fascist.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Random fascism, it's a bit weird, isn't it?

• 50:45Speaker 03

  So it's kind of funny, isn't it? But it's also the same way that with like certain quirky brands of like comedy or art or acting, you know, clowning and all these kind of things. Really associated with very liberal spaces, oftentimes will be people that are actually really, you know, posh, privately educated and things like that.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  You both agree with, but you're basically saying all clowns are rapists.

• 51:03Speaker 03

  I didn't say that!

• 51:04Speaker 02

  No, but you say this all the time.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  I've got that tattooed above my arse.

• 51:07Speaker 02

  But that's what, what you're getting at is the, the guy with the dawn books, tone bag and his painted nails.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  Who's, you know, reading a fucking Simone de Beauvoir book.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Why I'm, why I'm talking to white people, whatever.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, why, why, why fucking hate white people about race and stuff like that? They're the ones who are gonna be mass militators and paedophiles, is what you were saying.

• 51:27Speaker 03

  It's not at all what I'm saying.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Well, I read it, I read it.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  Really not at all what I'm saying.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  No, I get it, yeah.

• 51:31Speaker 03

  But it is interesting that Salvador Dali, you know, he had like a fascination with Hitler and stuff, didn't he?

• 51:35Speaker 01

  But it's the 30s, you're allowed to be fascinated by Hitler in the 30s.

• 51:38Speaker 03

  It's true, you would have, you would have been curious at that time.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  Who's this guy?

• 51:40Speaker 03

  You'd be like, what the fuck is going on?

• 51:41Speaker 01

  He's just on the anchilles, what is that? I like this.

• 51:44Speaker 02

  Suspicious to not have a fascination with Hitler.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Because it does show a lack of curiosity about the extremes of humanity. If, if you're a straight man.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  It's not extreme at the time, it's centrist.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  You know, this, this is the story of the German Lib Dems in the 30s.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  Uncle Christmas.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  It's kleckmania.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  Everyone's having a conversation at the table, he's already retreated to the living room, he can still hear, he's shouting from there. He wasn't extreme at the time!

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Hitler was a communist.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  He was like a centrist at the time, he was like the Nick Kleg of his day.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  It's kleckmania, it's the first kleckmania.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  What's any bounties left?

• 52:19Speaker 01

  But so, but I think with Spain though, fascist Spain, it's like fascist, fascism originates in Italy, which makes sense because Italy, you know, it's a fucking, it's a wet suit. Do you know what I mean? It hasn't got any starch. It needs order, it needs rigidity.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  Right, okay, yeah.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Spain's, I can see why if you're, if you're a Spaniard and you would, you know, you like money, as Dali did, you would then be like, well, can we fucking get something going, please? Can we get rid of the siestas?

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it was a response to siestarism.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  Well, can we find out, did siestas go down under fascist, the fascist regime?

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Huge, huge, uh, study this. We must know.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  Because that's fascinating. Maybe ask Chat GPT.

• 52:54Speaker 04

  In Spanish, aseo means toilet and it's, it's quite, it's quite, um.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's not what we asked, Charlie. Can you, can you ask, or Phoebe, or just anyone back there? This is genuinely interesting.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Did the siesta culture change under Franco?

• 53:08Speaker 01

  It changed significantly under Franco. It was a, a survival mechanism during his dictatorship, so it actually came up.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Well, so they're trying to do it to, to hide.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Well, I guess it's, it's, it's fascistic, it's enforced napping, because it's Spanish.

• 53:23Speaker 03

  Because it also gives you more energy that you're open to buy two jobs. That's what it, I think it's.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  Well, I saw, yeah, I saw like a fucking Manosphere guy saying, I split my day into two days and therefore I have 14 days in a week.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  I've seen this, yeah.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  So you can maybe that's, that's what they're doing there.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Except really in the first place, they only have half a day. So really they're just making one day. If Franco moves Spain's clocks forward by an hour to align with Nazi Germany, I like that.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  This is both Picasso and Dali, but especially Dali became obsessed with money in quite like a Warhol-esque way, where he viewed the fame, success and how much money you have is a sign of how great an artist you are. Which is weirdly also doesn't go with this surreal sort of approach.

• 54:01Speaker 03

  He's kind of almost like one of the early influencers, he's, you know, promoting himself with these publicity stunts. He turns up, um, in a really big, heavy, um, old fashioned diving suit.

• 54:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, have you heard about this?

• 54:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 54:13Speaker 03

  Uh, at some sort of an event and it, he passed out.

• 54:16Speaker 02

  He had, he also had three ferrets, he was walking on leashes.

• 54:19Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, and two white hounds.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  And then he was, it was meant to be some sort of, um, conference about art and then he did a speech from this helmet, but then it got stuck.

• 54:26Speaker 03

  Diving suit, but it got stuffy.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  And he nearly suffocated to death and so people had to wrench him out.

• 54:29Speaker 03

  On stage, on stage.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  If only he died, that would have been so fucking satisfying.

• 54:34Speaker 03

  And he-

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Because now this cunt's just in the Kiefer Bergheim.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:38Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  With his three ferrets and his little, little, little, little diving helmet.

• 54:40Speaker 02

  Also, so he was, became obsessed with money, however, to make money. He thought, if you're a genius, you should monetise it as much as possible. Right.

• 54:48Speaker 03

  Case in point.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Genius.

• 54:51Speaker 02

  This is genius.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Pedo! Genius, genius.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, that guy's a paedophile.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  So he did a Disney collab as well, with the original Disney?

• 54:58Speaker 02

  He became, he was fas, they're both fascinated in each other. Uh, he thought Disney was like a great artist, animator. And they, it took 58 years to finish this short film called Destino, uh, which I guess finished both after they'd both died. It won an Oscar, uh, and it's, um, I guess Salvador Dali's drawings animated by Disney. It's kind of amazing.

• 55:19Speaker 03

  Do you like his paintings?

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Do you know what? It's because it's, because it's surreal and I know it's surreal and I know that it's not meant to make me feel anything.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  So you're not, you're not, you're not surprised by anything?

• 55:28Speaker 01

  I'm not surprised by anything.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  See, that's how ADHD people see time.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  That's what time blindness.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Well, that's just a normal painting in Africa, isn't it?

• 55:40Speaker 03

  I find the arid landscape quite unsettling.

• 55:43Speaker 04

  Looks like Cornwall.

• 55:45Speaker 03

  I don't think it looks like Cornwall, no.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  I don't think anything looks like.

• 55:48Speaker 02

  Actually, do you know what, Charlie? I think it does look like Cornwall.

• 55:51Speaker 04

  My friend Kev lives on a cliff in Cornwall.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Oh yeah?

• 55:53Speaker 01

  Completely irrelevant.

• 55:54Speaker 03

  He lives on a cliff? Wow. In a cliff or on it?

• 55:58Speaker 04

  In it and kind of on it. We hit, we eat stuff off the rocks, um, sandfire.

• 56:02Speaker 03

  You eat stuff off the rocks? You do live in a fucking Dali painting, Charlie, that is true.

• 56:06Speaker 04

  Sandfire.

• 56:07Speaker 03

  It's funny, you know, because a lot of hot girls on TikTok who are painters have a very sort of surrealist style. And it is funny when you sort of compare, it's always like a sort of a Pinterest board, it's just like these items, it's sort of, I can imagine Dali just sort of being like, oh yeah, cute clocks.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  Would you, modern art has moved to the point where, I think there is now like the artist baddie coming along as a Instagram thing, where there's like attractive girl who will post loads of images as if she's attractive and then part of her attractiveness is that she also does sort of art and it nearly always is derivative of older art.

• 56:39Speaker 03

  But then how is any, I mean, all art is, you know, derivative mostly. Um, I think it's-

• 56:44Speaker 01

  What's that derivative of?

• 56:46Speaker 02

  Right, let's get his Hitler one up, because Hitler one is kind of goated, to be fair.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  It's pretty awesome.

• 56:50Speaker 03

  I don't think that you should blame people for being interested in art, no matter how derivative it is. Because in order to create your own style, you have to, you have to copy other people's work.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  But this is very much this podcast, the fascination, undeniably, I guess a lot of this podcast is giving into animal urges.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  Zoom in, zoom in.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  And not being performative about, and lying about things. Obviously, if you're a man, you are interested in Hitler, don't deny it. And I think this, uh, painting, you can't say he was pro Hitler, but it's terrifying.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  Let me look at it, let me look at it.

• 57:23Speaker 03

  Little rotted pieces of food and a little postcard image of, um, postage stamp of Hitler.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  And there's a bat.

• 57:30Speaker 04

  Oyster.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  And there's an oyster.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  And also it's a similar setting to the persistence of time, it's, it could also be in Cornwall, the weather's changed.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Zoom out, there's a sort of ghost like umbrella, there's a telephone-

• 57:39Speaker 02

  A black knob? Oh no.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  No, no, no, it's a telephone, but one end, one end's like a scorpion, it looks like.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  And it's dripping.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Or it's dripping, it's heat hot.

• 57:45Speaker 04

  That's a lot like a knob.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  It does look like a, I, I, I am seeing a big knob dripping.

• 57:50Speaker 03

  It always looks like it's mustache middle.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Cashews.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Now, do you know what? The more I look at it, the more I actually don't think it's about Hitler at all.

• 57:58Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  I think it's just a photo of Hitler in the middle.

• 58:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  I mean, what the fuck's that about? What the fuck is going on there? Can you just tell me, can you keep that up and then get a separate window up with some kind of Gemini saying, what the fuck am I meant to think about that?

• 58:10Speaker 02

  So you did that in 39?

• 58:12Speaker 01

  The cut telephone cord represents the severing of diplomatic communic- oh, that's very Beethoven's brother, isn't it? Barren landscape is the sterility and the anxiety of the impending catastrophe.

• 58:24Speaker 03

  He always does a barren landscape. I think he just doesn't know how to paint a different type of landscape necessarily.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  My problem with this stuff is that it's a bit like, you're seeing this, then you're reading about why it means stuff. And it's a bit like watching an A-level drama production.

• 58:35Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:37Speaker 03

  But also you could be told that a painting means anything.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Social media is bad.

• 58:42Speaker 03

  And I think that you would be able to draw conclusions if you, if you said any item was linked to anything or emotion. You would be able to find some kind of link there.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  But do you not think with the colour of Dali's normal paintings, the fact it's 1939, the graveness of the feeling on the continent, I feel it represents that emotion quite well.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  It does represent that, but then because he's, because he's chosen these things, he's there going, mm, how shall I represent the severing of diplomatic relations? You know, but it's, it was Radio 4, isn't it? It's rye. That's a rye painter.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  Now, if you were gonna, you had to draw, in 1939, you had to draw a painter called The Enigma of Hitler.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:19Speaker 02

  How would Finn Taylor do that?

• 59:20Speaker 01

  I'll show you. It's like, like, like one of those Japanese, like just love hearts everywhere. And Hitler's got massive eyes. He's like, oh, like that.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  I thought you were gonna say it's one of those octopus fucking wood prints.

• 59:33Speaker 01

  No, it's like a-

• 59:34Speaker 02

  The Enigma of Hitler and it's him going, oh.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  No, it's Hello Kitty, but Hitler's like that. Hello, Hello Hitty. Like that.

• 59:40Speaker 03

  Hello Hitty is good.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  So obviously Dali, without Dali, there'd be no David Lynch, you know? Talking Heads is quite influenced by Dali, I'd say as well.

• 59:50Speaker 02

  Do you like Lynch?

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I like Twin, no, I like Twin Peaks.

• 59:54Speaker 03

  Twin Peaks is amazing.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  Here in David, there's a compilation of David Lynch talking about every time he forgets an idea, he wants to kill himself. And he's said this in so different interviews, there's like three minutes of him just, and it is a very relatable thing, basically.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  So perhaps, perhaps more than any other movement in art surrealism sort of opens a gate, I guess. So I suppose, you know, if you're tracing this back from Van Gogh, which is in, the Impressionists are in the 1860s. In the spe- in the space of 80 years, what's possible in art has entirely changed.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  And I guess the war probably has sped it all up.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  Cause everything's just got, technology's just grown at such a rapid rate. But now, I guess where does it leave art now? Cause it does feel.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Sorry, right. What have you done there, Charlie? What have you done? Talk, cause people are listening. Switch the video and tell us what you've done there.

• 1:00:43Speaker 04

  Can you replace this as The Enigma of Finn Taylor, British comedian? Make it similarly dark and a bit homosexual.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Right. That's the prompt.

• 1:00:51Speaker 04

  So it's just, it's basically kind of, it's still quite Radio 4. Funny, isn't it?

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  What, is that, is that what it says on the mountain?

• 1:00:58Speaker 04

  There's come, coming out of the cock, which I've made a bit more pronounced. That's meant to be you. It's not just a joke, darling. And then there's a-

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  It's classic Finn.

• 1:01:08Speaker 04

  It's quite you.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  I don't think that's me.

• 1:01:10Speaker 03

  He's beautiful in the ball.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:01:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  I guess where is art now is the kind of-

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  The female gaze, I will never understand.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  Cause the thing, the thing about Dali, he dies-

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  He looks like he's got AIDS, that guy.

• 1:01:23Speaker 03

  I like him weak.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Right, well, yeah, I guess that's-

• 1:01:25Speaker 02

  He dies in 89.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  Right, but at least Dali was a proper painter and he had incredible technical skills. And I think these painters still stand up. I guess now, post-war hole, art has got to a point where it feels like technically it's all been stripped back, right? There's a sort of a bit of a death of fine art.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's almost cringey to try and be good at art now, isn't it?

• 1:01:46Speaker 02

  Cause now it's so conceptual. Who the big, cause I know in many ways, the British art scene, certainly in Europe is the bigger, the most emerging one, but the sort of, what they called the young.

• 1:01:54Speaker 03

  I have no idea.

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  There's like a name for them. The young-

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  Young kings.

• 1:01:59Speaker 03

  I guess it's so interesting as well because you think about what people would have had. They would have had to spend so much time actually painting, learning each kind of fine brush stroke. People had so many less things to do. Of course they would become masters in a different way. I think that we're all too overstimulated now to be, spend our time becoming master painters. Cause we're not gonna see any more master painters.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  The new shit does leave me cold.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not, it's not, there's no craft to it anymore, I suppose.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's all about conceptual or re- what I don't like is so much of art is just recontextualising other things. And that's the art. Isn't it artistic that I put a toilet in a gallery? Isn't it artistic that I got an old telly and put this on the old telly?

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Well, have you read Retromania by Simon Reynolds?

• 1:02:40Speaker 02

  No, I haven't.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  You should read that.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  It's about how basically past the 90s, everything became a library of culture.

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just-

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  And rather than, there's nothing new coming through.

• 1:02:48Speaker 03

  But then also it's like, it's so cyclical that every 50 years or so, we say that we hate modern art. And then in 50 years from now, people will say that they love that art from years ago.

• 1:02:56Speaker 02

  I think that's the big question, is that you looked back at Van Gogh and Picasso and that people would have hated them at the time, some of the stuff at the time. And then you could view the fucking shit in the bed now and be like, oh, that's gonna be like Van Gogh. But is it? Because it does feel like everyone now is saying that we're living in a bit of a low point for art. And it's partly the commercialisation, that these stuff is, this stuff's going for 50 million.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  I don't think anyone's having to look back at like, oh, the Baroque poo in a, on a floor.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  So the Rubenesque poo, I mean.

• 1:03:23Speaker 03

  But also we aren't the only thing, we aren't the only beings that can create images anymore, I think.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  What, like dogs can?

• 1:03:29Speaker 03

  Well, no, I just, AI means that we're not in control of images being produced anymore in the same way. And therefore, images are just changing in terms of what they're valued to us. We can't trust that something beautiful we see has been made by humans. So it's gonna change the whole way that we view it, but.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Oh, look, dogs can paint.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  And do you know what I mean? It's not that much worse than Van Gogh's sunflowers. That's what I'd say. Anyway, well, Charlie, what have you learned?

• 1:04:01Speaker 04

  That you can still create great work even if you eat paint.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's not the lesson I'd want people to take away from this series. I don't endorse-

• 1:04:10Speaker 04

  Or stiff glue, or glue or paint is fine, basically.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  Right, okay. Bebe, you're at the Edinburgh Festival.

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  For the whole month.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  What's your show called?

• 1:04:20Speaker 03

  My show is called Swoon. It's about the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood, who are a group of Victorian painters.

• 1:04:26Speaker 02

  We'll talk about the patron.

• 1:04:27Speaker 03

  And they're muses and male artists and wanting to be a muse but failing to be one, so.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  The complicated male artists.

• 1:04:34Speaker 03

  The complicated male artists, but also very similar themes to my large shows, which is just essentially a girl wanting to express herself and failing.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  But also your shows are basically naked gun films and how many silly jokes are in them.

• 1:04:45Speaker 03

  I just got a bunch of accents.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  If you listen, yeah, you do some terrific accents. And that's coming from me.

• 1:04:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, she's a real accent artist, too.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, she really are. So when you're talking about how it's about the young Raphaelite, blah, blah, blah, it's really funny and silly.

• 1:04:56Speaker 03

  That's nice. Thank you. If anybody wants to come, it's at 5.40pm at the Jackdome, all of August.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  5.40 to the Jackdome, rabbit, dog.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  Let's see it.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Get there. We're gonna chat, carry on chatting on the Patreon about the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood, which I, I know what that is. This has been inverse history. She's been Bebe Cave. We'll see you all again on the Patreon or next week for a brand new topic from all of us here. Goodbye.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  Goodbye.

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  The wheel had roads. Electricity had the grid. Innovation needs infrastructure. Plaid makes AI work in finance. Visit plaid.com/ai to learn more.