100. Laird Hamilton & Gabby Reece: Why Avoiding Discomfort Is Ruining Your Health

What does it take to translate athletic excellence into mastery of life, relationships, and business? In this episode of Extend, legendary big wave surfer Laird Hamilton and pro volleyball champion Gabby Reece join me to share the mindsets and practices that have sustained their 30-year relationship and individual success. We discuss why "getting tired" is essential for health and how they've built a thriving business around authentic products. We also discuss the simple daily rituals that matter more than complex optimization protocols. Laird Hamilton is a pioneer of big wave surfing and hydrofoiling, while Gabby Reece dominated professional volleyball before becoming a wellness advocate. Together, they created XPT (Extreme Performance Training) and co-founded Laird Superfood, a publicly-traded company focused on functional nutrition. We Also Discuss: Why "Getting Tired" Makes Food Taste Better and Improves Sleep Quality The Art of Comfortable Confrontation in Marriage and Business Why Observing Nature Is Medicine for Modern Stress The Decision Fatigue Trap That's Sabotaging Your Day Before 9 AM Why They Choose Their Suffering Instead of Letting Life Choose for Them Thank You for Our Sponsors: Vitaboom: For supplements you can trust and wellness solutions tailored to your health, visit https://vitaboom.com/ Learn more about Dr. Shah: Website: https://www.drshah.com/ Clinic: https://www.next-health.com/ @nexthealth https://www.instagram.com/nexthealth/https://www.instagram.com/darshanshahmd Instagram: @darshanshahm https://www.instagram.com/darshanshahmd/d Learn more about Gabby Reece and Laird Hamilton: Instagram: @airdhamilton https://www.instagram.com/lairdhamilton/?hl=en @gabbyreece https://www.instagram.com/gabbyreece/?hl=en

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Welcome to Extend with me, Dr. Darshan Shah, a podcast dedicated to cutting-edge science, research, tools, and protocols designed to help you extend your health span. Having become one of the youngest doctors in the country at the age of 21, and trained and board certified at the Mayo Clinic, I've accumulated three decades of practice as a board-certified surgeon and longevity expert. Over that time, I've discovered that a mere 20% of health knowledge yields 80% of the results when it comes to your health span. We're living in a new era where we are creating a new healthcare system, no longer focused on disease management, but achieving optimal health and vitality. Join me as I interview world-renowned experts, offering you a step-by-step guide to proactively avoid disease and, most importantly, extend your health span.

• 0:49Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Laird and Gabby, it is such an honor to have you guys on the Extend Podcast today. Thank you so much for making the trip out here.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  Thank you for having us.

• 0:58Speaker 02

  I know, we made it in town.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  It's great.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  We had to run the gauntlet of the PCH.

• 1:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, and for you and like what you represent and Next Health represents, it's, we're totally aligned with you.

• 1:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Wow, I love that. That's so, such an honor to have both of you. And, you know, for the listeners who don't know, we're kind of neighbors in Malibu. And so, to get out to West Hollywood for us, it's, it's a commitment, right?

• 1:21Speaker 02

  And there's no surf here. So for Laird, it's like, it's like a whole adventure.

• 1:25Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. Are you feeling like withdrawal right now from the ocean?

• 1:28Speaker 01

  There's been a couple of days of waves, so I'm, I'm.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  Don't lie. Laird needs waves in a real way. He needs some adventure. He's holding on by a thread over here.

• 1:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Well, you told me when I was walking you up here, that it's all about you framing, right?

• 1:40Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:41Dr. Darshan Shah?

  This is an adventure for you to come here today.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  That's right. I get to. I get to.

• 1:45Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I get to, instead of I have to.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a, I think it's a powerful thing when we're reminded that we're choosing.

• 1:50Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right. Absolutely. Yeah, we, you know, like you were saying, Laird, like, some people have to be here because maybe they're, you know, you saw some people in the streets that are homeless, maybe, and they can't leave this area, and we get to be here today.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  That's right. Yeah, those, those are big differences.

• 2:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  The choices and then, and what's being chosen, you know, what's being chosen for you versus what you get to choose. I think we need to remember that, too, that we, when you get to choose, that's pretty, that's a luxury.

• 2:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly, exactly. So I wanted to kind of frame this conversation. You know, I look at both of you incredible professional athletes, big wave surfers, business owners. You are winners, both of you, in so many ways. And don't look at me like that. You know you are.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Has anyone ever called you a winner, honey?

• 2:40Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Both of you, you embody winning.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  You're thinking about parenting right now.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, maybe that's it.

• 2:44Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Well, and that's all I want to talk to you about. You know, you've translated this winning in athletics into winning in life, I would say. Parenting your life together as a couple, the community that you've developed around your home. And I wanted to dive into all of those aspects about because winning is hard, right? It doesn't just happen to you. Like, you've gone through the ups and downs, and you have to lose to win, right? And so you've been through that journey in all aspects of life.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Well, we're still in the journey. I think maybe you're in it long enough and you realize that, like you said, losing, it's just a shade and a dimension of winning. And once you get a relationship with that and you accept it, and when it's happening, you don't freak out, I think you start to go, oh, yes, this too is a part of the end, whatever the goals are.

• 3:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, that is true. And then you said something interesting on a podcast. I can't remember which one. You said, winning is just being the last one to make it. Something to that effect, right?

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Well, I love the, I love the term, the, you know, victory through attrition. You know, when you're just the last one standing, you, you don't even have to be very good. You're just like, you won because you're the only one left.

• 3:59Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  But I think the journey too, I feel like as we go through this journey, you know, winning and losing, these are just highs and lows during the, you know, the top of the hill might be a win and the bottom of the hill might be a loss. But then you don't want that to end, right? You don't want there, or it's not going to end till the, till it ends. And then you're not going to maybe worry about it after that.

• 4:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly. You know, I read this book, it was from a doctor who was interviewing people that are under deathbed. And have you, have you read this book?

• 4:28Speaker 02

  No, I just thought of.

• 4:29Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, it's amazing. And you know, when you ask someone who's dying, like, what regrets do you have in life? And the answer is almost always universally is I didn't enjoy the journey. Right?

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:42Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And I think when you look at this concept of winning, we're always trying to achieve something. We're trying to get somewhere. But the reality is a journey is everything.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Well, enjoying that, like, like Don, I had a close friend, Mr. Wildman, who was a started Bally's Health.

• 4:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Clubs and was just a fitness master. And he said, at one point, he, he had been eating too much ice cream. And, and his friends were like, you know, you just eat too much ice cream. So he's like, okay, I'm gonna stop eating ice cream. And then he said he was watching television. And there was a, like, a hundred and five year old woman, you know, where they do like birthdays.

• 5:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  And they said, well, do you have any, you know, any regrets, you know, like, when you look back at your life? And, and she goes, maybe, you know, not enjoying the moment enough? And not eating enough ice cream.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  And he said, when she said that, he went straight to the refrigerator where there was like, an ice cream cake. And he said, he just ate half the cake.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  So, so much for the.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  He just rode his bike a little more.

• 5:44Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Cause he was so fit.

• 5:46Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Uh, I can imagine, like, the guy's probably fit, like, why can't he have the ice cream? Right?

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Well, then, yeah, but it's just the, you know, it's that other nuanced thing of like, does the sugar make you feel as good? But I think it's sort of the metaphoric ice cream of not being, you know, so prohibitive.

• 6:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, right.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Well, burdened by, just our lives can be burdensome with just work and getting, making ends meet and then just, and always grinding away to try to get to a goal.

• 6:13Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  And, I mean, it's not set up for us to really enjoy it. I think that's a, you know, that's something that actually takes some skill.

• 6:21Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Is to figure out how to do things that you enjoy and do them and, and give them importance, right? And so, and they can be, it can be simple things, but, you know, putting priority

• 6:32Dr. Darshan Shah?

  What is that for you, Laird? I'm just kidding.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it could be just enjoying, I mean, besides a giant wave.

• 6:38Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Allusive, but it can be as simple as just enjoying a sunset or enjoying a sunrise or just kind of appreciating nature or something like that. So I think there's ways to, as you go, you know, what do they say, enjoy the journey? It's not about the destination, but.

• 6:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  Laird, I think, has been the anchor of that message in our house. Cause he'll, sometimes, you know, I'll be in the, in the, you know, the schedule or the email and Laird's like, is this what we're gonna do with our whole lives? Is respond to every email and, and do all these things? And, you know, we joke about people saying, okay, I'll enjoy it when I retire.

• 7:13Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  And he, he talks about even having the skill set to have something that you, like he said earlier, to enjoy.

• 7:20Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  You know, and, or to feel good enough to enjoy it.

• 7:24Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, so true.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, you wait till you, you wait till you retire and then all of a sudden you're not in the physical condition to be able to do these things that would be enjoyable.

• 7:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  But you just aren't capable or you're, or, or, yeah, you haven't had the experience. I mean, there's so many factors. It's, you kind of need to do it along the way a little bit.

• 7:45Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Absolutely.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  I mean, if you have the fortune to actually do that and make that your life, then that's even more of a, of a gift.

• 7:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  That's also, I think that's also, could be a goal. Like, hey, I want to try to make my life be something that I'm enjoying, that I do and have experiences along the way. And you can, if you can make that your work too, or at least include it into your work, like you get to, right?

• 8:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Now I do.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Now you do.

• 8:11Dr. Darshan Shah?

  When I was a surgeon, you know, I was just grinding it out every day. It was like forcing myself to wake up, go to the operating room, forcing myself to get through the day and then getting home and it's, it was, I got burnt out. It was horrible. And to your point, like if you're feeling that way, having a plan to change that to where you get to enjoy every day is, should be, I think, you know, a goal that you should work towards, towards your life if you're not, if you're not there right now.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, I think everybody has that responsibility. I mean, I think we, Gabby and I, just even in the relationship, look at it like, hey, I gotta figure out how to make myself happy. And do the things that I need to do that aren't destructive and hard on the relationship and those things. And then she she figures out how to make herself happy and then we can come together. But, you know, looking for outsized, you know, looking for an outside source. Like, if you just behave right, I'll be happy. It's like, well, that's never gonna work.

• 9:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Never gonna happen.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  So I think it's that speaks to that, you know, to having that goal. It's like, find that thing that make that brings you, you know, brings you that that kind of fulfillment and that wholeness.

• 9:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, and that's kind of over the time scale of a lifetime. But also, like, to your point, on a day to day basis, not just getting drug into the schedule and finding those moments to get out of that and enjoy that day.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, just and even just the small moments. I think we it's hard. It takes us a different kind of effort. I think when people talk about, oh, a practice gratitude, I don't think that has to be so monumental. I think sometimes it's noticing or seeing someone you like and having just a short exchange. Or, I mean, I I sit and have coffee in the mornings with Laird. It's one of my favorite things to do first thing. And then outside my house is are all these birds. And I can just watch the birds hop around, fly around. They all fly differently. And just taking that in and thinking, that's pretty amazing. And it's it's all the those quiet things.

• 10:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Well, in the practice too, that you have a practice of, hey, I'm gonna train on these days in the morning. First thing, start the day with movement and get the body moving so you feel good. So then you can go in and not just get pulled into the into the office, you know, before you get an hour in. And, you know, that's your foundation. And then after that, no matter what happens, at least you you've done that instead of, well, I'll work out if I have a time. You know, just make it a make it a make make make that that coffee, that watch the birds, that activity, whatever that is. Prioritize it somewhere in the in the schedule. Because if you don't, then it just gets, oh, I'll do it tomorrow. I'll do it later.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Then you don't feel good. Something comes up. And then before you know it, you're, you know, you're not feeling as good. Then you lose the motivation and then it's just a downward spiral.

• 10:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right. And, you know, that brings me to the kind One of the big questions I had for both of you because obviously like, you know, I run Next Health and we call it a longevity and health optimization center. And to me, it's kind of, I get frustrated sometimes with the term longevity, right? Because now everyone feels like they have to be doing a million things every day to live longer and have a healthier life. And it almost becomes a burden to achieve longevity, right? And now I look at both of you, though, and you seem to have both incorporated this into your lifestyle so well. It's not a burden. It seems like it's something that actually brings you enjoyment and fulfillment. And I just love to like dive into that a little bit.

• 11:38Dr. Darshan Shah?

  How did, how did you make that happen? Because how do you prevent it from becoming a burden?

• 11:43Speaker 02

  Well, I also want to just say one thing before I'll, I'll start if you don't mind. But I said this on my show when I saw you the other day. I've known you for several years. And I want to say to your audience that you're a great example of somebody who you, as long as I've known you, I said this to you on my show, you've aged backwards.

• 12:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Oh, thank you.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  And you bought yourself more time. And so I just want to say that I know you're talking about it all the time, but you're a great example of somebody who did that. So just

• 12:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Thank you. I appreciate that.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Listen, I think Laird and I have had the, the great fortune of coming through athletics. So it makes developing that relationship with enjoying it a lot easier. There are going to be people who said, oh, I did, I was dutiful. I went to college. I did the thing. I got the real job. And they weren't encouraged or taught about how that relationship with all those things, whether it's trying to eat, make better choices nutritionally, or find a practice in movement, or making time for one another. So let's start there. We've, we've had that luxury. So we have momentum coming into adulthood and the burdens or responsibilities of adulthood. So family and work and other. And part of that is a relationship with discomfort.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  You know, part of being able to enjoy it all more is because you're sort of willing to suffer a little. And, you know, pick your suffering. So, you know, Laird is a great example of, he can, you know, go up the hill on his bike, or, you know, lift weights in a way, and I have my own versions of this, where you go, yeah, but this suffering that I'm going to align with, I'm actually going to lean into it. I'm not going to resist it. And I know at the other side of that, I'm, the rewards are endless.

• 13:30Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right. Yeah, such a great mindset to be in of, in making the suffering, something that you look at what's going to come after the suffering versus while you're in it.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I, there's something about the relationship with yourself. I remember feeling this very young. That's why I liked volleyball, because something, I, I respected myself after I went out of practice. Because I'm like, there was no faking it there. I had to earn it. And I liked myself more because it was hard. And you still do it.

• 14:00Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, right.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I mean, I, when, when you're talking, it makes me think of a few things, which, one of them is, is, it's a long race. It's a long race.

• 14:13Dr. Darshan Shah?

  It's a long race, right.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  And you don't sprint in a marathon. So, it's about pacing yourself. And, you know, I like, I can say both Gabby and I, just from being in athletics, that we've done a lot of damage to ourselves.

• 14:26Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yep.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Doing that.

• 14:27Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, a lot of athletes do.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Everybody goes, it's healthy. I go, yeah, it's healthy. But I have a lot of injuries and a lot of stuff that I have to live with that make someone coming into this that, that doesn't have that kind. It makes it a lot more comfortable. So I, I'm dealing with a certain amount of, of pain on a daily basis, just to, just to do the fitness and to be into it. But, you know, choosing, like Gabby said, choosing your sacrifice. I mean, you're sacrificing, you know, an ounce of prevention's worth a pound of cure.

• 14:54Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  You choose, you, you, you have little sacrifices along the way. So you don't have a giant sacrifice at the end. And I think we're naturally inclined to avoid, avoid discomfort.

• 15:06Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Like humans, we just, any discomfort, like I was cold. A blanket on it. It's hot, you know, put the A C like we're always avoiding discomfort. But there's no growth in discomfort.

• 15:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  You know, I always I talk about the rose bush that you prune. It makes flowers. It's like it doesn't want to be cut. And so, and I think having that that kind of it's a long game and and it's and it's all. It's it's so many different pieces that are going to be helpful. It's like a wheel with spokes. It's like there's so many spokes in the wheel. It's like, OK, how's your relationship? If the stress that you're putting on yourself to try to do all the things you need to do to live forever is gonna outweigh any of the benefits of the stuff you're doing. So you stop, just don't do any of those things, don't have that stress and you might live live longer. And and and at the end, you know, we all have a number and you don't know what that number is. So you could have a really healthy corpse or you could have a really worn down one. It might come sooner, it might come later.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  I mean, for me, I feel like a big piece of it is just getting myself tired enough so that food tastes good. That I'm nicer, that I sleep well. Like, these are things I think just enough would and whatever that looks like, it could be a long. You know, arduous activity, it could be just thermal regulating till I'm exhausted. It could be breath work, it could be, you know, a fun activity, but just somewhere where you get tired. Just get tired. I'm a better person, food's better. It's just all, you know, it's like, and don't make it complicated. Don't, don't, we're looking for the, you know, we we're making thing, something as simple as get tired. Have consistent practices that you implement into your life.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  You know, make sure that your relations are good with your family and friends and all that stuff. So you don't have that kind of, you know, that kind of undermining energy in your system. And, you know, eat good food and be be outside and be in the sunlight and, you know, have these have these practices.

• 17:01Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I love that get tired because I think a lot of the people I talk to, you know, and my patients and just people just in general. They don't really get tired anymore. They they they're tired, maybe. They're exhausted. They're exhausted. But they're not tired. They're not tired. Right, exactly.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  And it's not that hard, actually, to get real tired. It doesn't take forever. You can do something. That's very intense.

• 17:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  No, I'm just saying you can even just do some short, some kind of breath work that that you'll be tired from it. You could some kind of exposure, heat, cold, whatever that is. I mean, you can be tired quickly. So it's people, oh, I don't have enough time to get tired. I you just haven't done the right thing.

• 17:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And you know, that's true on a cellular basis, too. Like, we all know this, that when you stress your cells enough that they get exhausted through whether it be high intensity intermittent training or what have you, they it actually creates a cellular reset. So the old cells that are about to die, they get released from your body. All mitochondria get released. So there's a scientific basis to that, even at a cellular level.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:01Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  And we live in a time where there's so much data. You know.

• 18:05Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Sure.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  Laird, you know, I often say I I draft behind Laird.

• 18:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  I use Laird's sort of more primal approaches as a North Star.

• 18:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  And I'm not so tempted by all the the data, but you know, it's there. And Laird sometimes will just be, you know, less data, more experience. And I think we live in a time where you can listen to podcasts. My podcast, sometimes I try really hard to keep it simple, but it's reminding people that you don't have to have a two hour ritual of all the things. It it's sort of have a group of activities and practices that you're doing. And then on the days of whatever you can do, try to pull a couple. And and and stop trying to measure every single thing and be perfect, because that's where that stress comes from. And it's, I think, as two people who have separately done this for a decent amount of time.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  It's it seems to work, you know, enough. And and like Laird said, I have a fake knee, he has fake hips. It's like, you know, if you if you haven't grinded your body down and you're going to start, like you have these incredible fresh joints.

• 19:14Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Like, you're you're sort of like, you're ready to go. And so I think that there's actually, in a different way, advantage. Like, people might go, oh, well, it's easy for them. Yes, and.

• 19:24Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. And it's not.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  And it's not.

• 19:26Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  So so how does it work? And how do you want to start?

• 19:30Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, that's such a great point. Like, people don't have all the injuries to contend with. Like, I'm surprised here that you have a certain amount of pain that you deal with every day. You definitely don't look like that, but I could imagine why.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Well, just, you know, repetitive use and and big and big crashes. And, you know, I mean, you you run into hard stuff and stuff breaks.

• 19:50Dr. Darshan Shah?

  It's funny how that happens.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Part of what comes with it. I mean, I wouldn't change any of it, of course. But again, it's back to what you said about those experiences is, you know, I think for me, I feel like the experience is so important that I'll sacrifice some body parts for it.

• 20:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, exactly. That important to you for sure. But you know what? What resonated to me too, what you just said, Gabby, is that I have this morning routine. I talk about morning routine all the time. It changed my life. I went from being, you know, 50 pounds overweight and autoimmune disease and diabetes to now being much healthier. And thank you for saying age backwards because I met you, you had me on your podcast many years ago. And since then, like that was the beginning of my health journey and now I'm like eight years into it. And I feel just so much better. But so, thank you anyway. But I did that through a morning routine. And what happened with me personally was I was like, this morning routine thing works. This is amazing. And so I was like meditating and then I did my workout in the morning, got it done with, and then I started reading in the morning.

• 20:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And then it just kept adding and adding more until it became a three hour slog at the beginning of every day for me to get through.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Better get up really early then.

• 21:00Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly. And so to your point, you gotta find that right amount that speaks to you and makes you happy and shows you progress, but it doesn't seem like a burden.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  Right. And I think also people have to honor where they are in their lives, right? Like, do they have a new baby or small children? Have they taken on an endeavor as entrepreneurs and they're starting something new that does take extra hours? So it's sort of being also realistic and matching. Where am I really? What can I get done, truthfully? And also, if it's not a priority, why am I willing to, at the cost of my health, you know, sort of do all these things and finding that balance? And for parents, you know, the thing is, we all want our children to be healthy. And the most powerful way to do that is to model it.

• 21:48Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  And so even if you do it because you're trying to be, you know, a good example, if even if you have to use that reason, know that really, we say this, we, you know, we have three daughters, they are really not listening. They're watching.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  And we go through it. I want to be clear. We fail all the time. You know, right now, our youngest daughter and the telephone is, it's a battle. And we don't have an answer or the solution. So we'll just keep modeling, keep, you know, communicating with her. And then you have that faith in them that they are smart and they'll sort to figure out and develop their own practice because they've had those examples.

• 22:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That's so true. And, you know, I've noticed that with my kids. I have my kids a little bit younger than yours. They're 11 and eight. And I, whenever they're doing something that I know that I'm, I've told them not to do, it's because they're watching me do it, right? So almost nine times out of 10, they will always do what I show them I'm doing versus what I tell them that I'm doing. So I have to look at myself in the mirror and be like, oh, that's why they're on their phone. Because they've watched me be on my phone for the last, you know, three days.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Well, and it's addicting, right? So you have young people developing. And that's why I'm always really impressed with parents that have figured out a way to manage that because I know we certainly have not.

• 23:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  But in those cases, I think sometimes the jury's still out too, as far as if you think people are managing it because they haven't really gone on their own yet and have it. And what will it mean to them? And so I think there's a lot of, I think there's, that's the tricky part about parenting too, is you, sometimes you don't see the fruit of you, you know, of the seed that you planted. So sometimes you get the immediate thing and then you're like, oh, whoops, that was a different tree than I thought I planted. So, you know, and it might not be at your house. They might be gone in their life. So again, they're watching and not listening to you anyway. And, and one will have one reaction to it and one will have a different, a different reaction. But you just hope the foundation, you know, that's the main thing is that the foundation's there so they can

• 23:57Speaker 01

  cope with it. And I think that's why it's important to eat good food, get sleep, have a, have a practice because then you're more fortified to deal with it. But even in your work, like Gabby said, okay, you got all these things going on. But if you're feeling good because you have a A good physical practice, you're going to be have a higher tolerance for bad behavior. You're going to have a higher tolerance for not getting sleep if you're a kid, you're going to have more. You're going to have more strength to be able to be, you know, better at your business.

• 24:27Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Absolutely.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  You know, you'll be more, the time that you have will be more productive. You know, you think more hours are going to be more productive, but half of them, you're delirious. And so you might as well, and if you start your day with. You know, I always like the task completion, whatever it is, some ritual that you go through the task. And you've completed that, that allows you to continue to complete other ones. So that you build off of that as your foundation, I think those are, that's why the morning rituals are so important.

• 24:55Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Absolutely.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Regardless, kind of regardless of what they are exactly. I mean, as long as they're not some undermining thing, but as long as you have kind of a ritual that you go through. Cause I think psychologically that brings you into like a position of, okay. At least I know this and it's happened.

• 25:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes, exactly.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Because everything else we don't, and so we're always dealing with that unknown.

• 25:14Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, you're starting your day with a win.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 25:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And if you have a few wins in a row, like you feel like you've already won the day and then that feels incredible. When you got your workout in, you got some reading in in the morning. Um, I diary every morning and I've done it for three hundred six, three thousand six hundred days straight now. My diary is an app that keeps track.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Can it just be a line even?

• 25:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Um, it's usually a collection of two or three pictures I've taken the day before. So I'm always taking pictures of important moments. And then it's always a dictated note, which is sometimes, you know, a paragraph, sometimes two or three sentences. And I've done that for three thousand six hundred days in a row. And to me, that's a major win. And the days I don't get to do it. I look back on that day and I say, that was a crazy day. I ended that day. In a really frenetic, horrible state. I didn't sleep well. And for whatever reason, the days I do it, it's like, that's the first thing I do in my ritual. So I get the rest of the ritual done too.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's that completion. You've completed this, this.

• 26:13Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  D.

• 26:14Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Getting one thing done.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, you've, you have the images, you have the, you know, the words. So you've, it's like a collective thing that you've, okay, now that's packaged up.

• 26:24Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Packaged and done.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Okay, now we're, yeah, that's interesting.

• 26:26Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  How the system works. Again, I think it's back to that, that things are a lot more simple than we make them. And we, and we have a lot of distractions and a lot of complications through data and all this stuff. And if you just simplify, it's like, oh, task completion. Okay, what's the task? You know, create that, okay, journaling. Okay, that's a task. I'm gonna do that. That's completed. Oh, make my bed. Okay, I'm gonna do that. Hey, put the dishes away. Okay, I'm gonna do that. Like, whatever it is that you, that you, that you do, I'm gonna do a breath work. I'm gonna do a certain thing and then you can go on and.

• 26:55Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right. I'm also a big, you know, I've been studying this a lot. It's decision making throughout our day. And I think a lot of humans right now are making a thousand decisions the minute they wake up because they grab their phone, they're going through emails, they're going through text messages. And you use up all your decision making capacity in the first few hours of the day. And then the rest of the day is really stressful and difficult to get through because you're mentally exhausted, right? And so.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  What's the number? How many good decisions do we have? Like, there's sort of a pretty finite amount.

• 27:29Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I believe that, yeah.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I don't know what the number is.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  It's pretty low.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  I heard it was like thirty-five or something.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Something crazy low, like it's a very low.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  It's pretty low.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:38Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Well, because when things were simpler when we were evolving.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. And, and the flip side of that is, I always say, and especially to females, because your cortisol is the highest in the morning, do everything hard in the morning. If you have to have uncomfortable conversations, training, if you can get it in, you know, and some of the work things, if you, if you need to ask somebody something, or you maybe need to have an uncomfortable sort of talk with someone, a peer, or, you know, even in your relationship, that the morning, because your cortisol is high, you're actually most equipped for it.

• 28:13Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, right. Oh, that's such a good point. You know, that kind of brings me to another topic I want to cover with both of you today. You've trained so many people, both of you have, at your home and through your programs. And, you know, I'd love to kind of hear from both of your perspectives, the difference in training men versus women. And so one of them is, you talked about cortisol in the morning in women, it's pretty high. So trying to put more there, and not just training physical, but also mental aspects of this too.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  I think that's been an interesting part for both of us in the last 10 years is the amount of coaching.

• 28:45Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  You know, me teaching my class and then both of us teaching, you know, around XBT, pool training, which there's a lot of emotion around that. People are afraid of water. A lot of them have had scary situations, like my brother tried to drown me. I got held under.

• 29:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I don't know how to swim.

• 29:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have that too. Where we have people who, you know, are really, really afraid. I find it's interesting because it's going to be different, right? So we actually have this strategy that came naturally. We didn't, we weren't, it wasn't, you know, something that we really thought about and thought, okay, we're going to do it this way. But we have Laird when we do breathing, teach breathing. Because a lot of times if there's a group of men, I feel like women are more sort of willing to say, I'll go into my spirit and, you know, go, huh, make a noise and do all these things. And guys, it's like, it's sort of a new thing, right? Like, they'll be sweaty and gross and all that. No problem.

• 29:47Speaker 02

  And so Laird teaches breathing because Laird gives everyone permission to go, okay, make this noise and, okay, do you, you know, relax or even talk about your spirits or tapping into that. So we, we use Laird and Laird's energy to give the whole group the permission to let go.

• 30:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That's such a great observation. Yeah, because even myself, when I learned breath work and had a female teacher, I was like, this is weird and uncomfortable for me to make all these noises and do all these things and tapping into my, but then, you know, coming from, I mean, you're a guy's guy. When you're telling me that, I'm like, okay, he's doing it, I could do it.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was listening to him the other day, teach a large group, probably 30 people, and he was telling them to, you know, hum on the exhale. And you know, and then he explains like, hey, nitric oxide, you'll absorb my oxygen, all these things where maybe for me, it wouldn't be received quite the same way. So that's been one interesting kind of strategy that we didn't, we didn't do on purpose, but really started to tune into like when I get a VC guy from Boston or New York.

• 30:56Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  And what's the other part of that that's so fascinating is that's the group that comes after and goes, whoa, I really felt something more than everybody because they need it. You know, they're, they're stoic, they're holding, they're not letting go, they're not breathing deep into their belly, they're not, you know, and, and they're the ones that have the, I feel like the, the sort of most kind of impact.

• 31:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. Yeah, the profound change.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's, it's a great, it's a, it's just a great thing.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Well, it's like peeling an onion, you know, you just start going through the layers and they've been, they've been keeping that, they've been keeping everything pretty under control and.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's, and they think it's woo woo versus, listen, the breath is a, is an ancient practice. We're, we're not creating anything new here. And so we're just going back to something that is very ancient and very primal that of course it benefits all of us.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Well, like if I tell them it's pre-battle preparation.

• 31:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Hmm, that's a good way to put it.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  You gotta know how to speak the language of, of the, of the participant.

• 32:00Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Of the New York City VC.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, or whoever, whoever it is, like you just, you gotta speak to people. I mean, I think that's one thing that we also through these, that we learn to speak the language of the, of the people. Gabby has a, an eye of reading people as well. And if I get, if, if, if I see somebody come in kind of like a machismo kind of guy, I'd be like, hey babe, can you help, you know, Joe here learn how to full train? And she'll be like, okay. And he'll be like, kind of like, cause if it's male, male, then he, then he'll want to male up. If it's woman male, then he'll be like, oh, okay. Like, yeah. And then, and then, then she'll hammer him because she, because.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  But, but a little more lovingly.

• 32:41Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. Lovingly.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Also like, but here, I'll show you how it's done.

• 32:46Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  And then, you know, I'll get, I'll, I'll give an example and she'll do, she'll do the drill and then be like, okay, now, now you can. So reading the people, I think through her class, you know, through, through Hayek and just that, her circuit, knowing how to put people together. Who can be together and how to, how to create those.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Your team.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Those groups, like how to pick and go, well, they'll be good together, that they won't be good together, break them up, you know.

• 33:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  And, and who to ask about that and all those. I mean, I think that's one thing you, you learn when you're sharing stuff that we've learned with people. Is just kind of reading and trying to, you know, how do you feed them in a way that they can eat? You know, like, how do you, how do you, where do you, where do you, like, if you, you know, and we see it a lot with real high strung. Trainers and fighters and stuff that the water, in a way, you have to, like, you have to go at them differently than you would. That somebody that has a, a different disposition, you can, you can put them in a more stressful situation quicker. And there's just, you just having that kind of, you know, having that kind of perception of, of, of how to reach.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Their language.

• 33:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  For the same thing. It's the same thing, but different language.

• 33:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Same thing, different language.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  How, how do, how do we bring them into it and, and have them, and what's the sequence?

• 34:02Speaker 02

  And type, type A has been the most interesting in the pool. Right? You'll see somebody and you can watch them do one drill and you, and I'll say, okay, I appreciate your type A whole thing you got going on here. But that's not going to work here. Cause the water is objective.

• 34:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  And people will come out and be like, oh, I didn't do it and I'm so stupid and all, all these things. And, and oftentimes too, it's like, hey, have you ever done this before? And they're like, no. And I'm like, okay, we're learning.

• 34:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Sure.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  We're, we're, we're trying to understand what we're doing. We're not going to get it on the first one. And just reminding people that whenever we're willing to try something new, the bravery that that requires, that's much more impressive to me. Then, you know, I have, I have everything under control. No, it's, I'm willing, I don't know, I'm actually scared. And I'm, I'm still going to try. And, and I think it's sort of all. Also reminding them that when we keep that attitude, we can, we can go so much further.

• 34:59Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Sure, for sure.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  And not comparing to, and not using comparisons, not using other people as a reference to what you're doing.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Go to your wall, let's find your wall.

• 35:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Everybody has a different wall, and then a big piece is submission, right? There's a big piece of submitting, in the breath work, it's submitting, in the, in the, in the pool work, it's submitting. There's a, there's a submission aspect, there's a submission aspect to the cold.

• 35:23Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  There's a submission aspect to the heat. It's like you have to, and so I think when you come at fitness, where people are coming at it with more aggressive, like I'm gonna push, and like, that's not gonna work, actually. That's gonna undermine actually your, your, your ability. And so, and kind of using and having that be part of the lesson too, that within, within that, through submission is actually how you can.

• 35:48Dr. Darshan Shah?

  How you can progress through submission. You're not gonna push your way through this.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 35:52Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You need to, yeah, the submission will get you through, right?

• 35:54Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 35:55Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  And culturally, our world doesn't tell us that.

• 35:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  No, not at all. The harder you push, the better you do.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, just keep grinding. I think it's, I've, I've learned that, because I'm around a lot of men all the time. And what I've learned is, a lot of the toughest men, truly tough, are the most gentle, are the ones who are gonna avoid conflict, are gonna say, I don't know how to do that. And you realize that that is why they have progressed at such a high level. It's actually that attitude, not, I know, I've got it, duh, duh, duh.

• 36:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Wow, that's such an interesting observation. This is great for me too, because as a physician, you know, I see hundreds of patients, and, and it's always tempting to stop seeing patients, because I've, you know, developed this business, and sometimes patients can really grind you. But I learned so much from seeing so many different people, and how to handle different people, how to get people on a journey versus, like you mentioned, like everyone is its own N of one kind of experience for me, and I learned so much from that, right? And I appreciate both of you for, I mean, you're still coaching people, you're still out there teaching and coaching and bringing people through, and I'm sure you learned so much.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  But that's the key, we're, we're always in school.

• 37:11Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  And, and being, and you can only do it by putting your hand on someone's, and, and being, and, and it is harder. Right, you have, because you have to be thoughtful and you sort of go, oh, this guy, you know, like, what, you know, you have that moment and then you have to go, how can I help them? Or how can I reach them? And, and so that's the classroom.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Right. And, and the teaching also forces you to really understand what it is.

• 37:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  What it is you're doing, like, what are you doing? Because you can do it, you can be great. I mean, that's why there's not, not everybody who's good at something is good at helping people do it.

• 37:44Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, absolutely. Not everyone can be a teacher, too.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Well, because they're good, you can be great at something and not know what, you know, how it is that you're great. You just, you're good at it. And versus, okay, well, what am I doing that makes me able to do it? Or what is it that takes to do it? And then being able to try to, you know?

• 37:59Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, and break it down into pieces, be able to teach it, every individual piece.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 38:04Dr. Darshan Shah?

  There's this whole thing about learning, um, that it's called mental reprocessing. And true learning happens when you learn something, but then you understand individual components and you can then teach every individual component and then understand what are the options in each component. And that mental reprocessing circle is what's, what is really true mastery of something.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Well, and I, I feel like I've probably had more coaches than Laird. Laird's coach was Mother Nature. That's a whole other kind of teacher.

• 38:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  But, uh, one thing I, I've really appreciated about what you're talking about is now, not only can I, you know, sort of keep it as simple as possible, get it simp- simply, but I usually know all the ways you could do it wrong. And that's right, like, that's really understanding something so that you can, you can also, you know, leapfrog people.

• 38:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  And go, hey, do it this way, because there's going to be these eight things that you're going to want to do. Don't do this. And so you can also save them time.

• 39:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, that's so true.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Well, it's like parenting is how, sometimes how not to be is a more effective way than to how to be.

• 39:15Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That's so true. We're all in the same boat here. We're trying to apply every lesson in life to how to parent. Because I would say it's the hardest thing I've ever done.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  That's the moving target, man. And they're also different. And then they have different phases. It's great.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't, you don't come home from parenting.

• 39:33Dr. Darshan Shah?

  No.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  And they don't, they don't give you a gold star.

• 39:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right. It's not over at 5pm. It just keeps going.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  No.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Keeps going.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  You don't go to the gym. You don't go to parenting and they come home from parenting.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Actually Laird has a line that I really appreciate. He's like, cause you know, like I said, our youngest daughter is going to college. So we, you know, we've done a few rounds. And he'll say, you know, parenting is for the parents to grow up. It's not called kidding.

• 40:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 40:02Speaker 02

  They're going to grow up. This is another opportunity for us to be better, to be different, to change our mind, to change the way we do it, to look at it a different way. And so when he said that, I thought, oh yeah, that's right. It's parenting is for us to grow up.

• 40:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  It's so true.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  The tempering of the soul.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:21Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, it really is. It really is. And you feel defeat every day sometimes.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Every day.

• 40:27Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly. So I want to jump back again because I love this conversation about men and how you coach men. But then my wife came to one of your training sessions that you had in your house where you gave her permission to be aggressive and gave her permission to show her strength. And I thought that was really interesting too. So I'd love to talk about your training style with women and even like getting them into a cold plunge or getting them into some of these very uncomfortable situations.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  I think I'm, I'm in a different position as a female coaching men and women because you have to be, you have to have a certain strategy as a female to coach men. So the language is very few words, very matter of fact, you know, direct and sort of not the implication that I'm telling you what to do, but it's sort of implied that you were, this is what we're doing. But I'm sort of honoring that you're a guy. And with women, it's, it's, it's sort of holding space for them and saying, I'm your advocate. I'm here for you, but also like you're an athlete. So let's not screw around. Let's, let's do this. And, and part of it is trying to be that in the.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  Moment and them realizing like, oh, it's it's okay to be to be sweaty or to grab a little more weight if I think I'm ready and pushing them in a way so that they can feel their own power. And I don't mean like to get in touch with your power. I don't mean all this vernacular. It's, you know, we're all strong and we're all dealing with a lot of things and sometimes giving permission to women in this area of their life can support them in a in a way I think that is is really helpful.

• 42:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right. And I think, you know, to your point, the power, I think a lot of women don't get to express their power as often as they should, or or as often that would be healthy for their for them, both mentally and physically. So I think expressing your power is a key of your training methodology with women is you can you let them do that.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  Well, and, you know, I always say I'm sort of perpetually in that moment in my teenage male. Because it's not like, are you okay? And, you know, yes, please. And if, you know, did that offend you? It's sort of giving you this opportunity. And I've had a lot of people resist me on this, but that's okay. They have a limited experience in this space. I feel like I have a little more. When you're doing certain things in your life, you're switching in as well as men are in your feminine energy and your male energy. And to have the opportunity for all of us to develop both and to and to put fuel on those fires, I think helps us navigate. So if we're taking

• 43:13Speaker 02

  that masculine energy into work as a female, it can be helpful. And then for for males to bring that feminine energy into their relationships and into their parenting is also really helpful. And it's it's giving them that permission. So sometimes just working out is a way to kind of explore that voice and that energy that you experience, which is, listen, I'm not going to be apologetic. I'm just dropping off information. I'm being straightforward. I know this is uncomfortable, but this is kind of how it is. And then having, of course, the gear of like, I love you. And, you know, can I give you can I make you some food or come over here and let me hear how your day was. But to always, you know, for women, a lot of times, because it is

• 43:57Speaker 02

  natural to be of service to everyone around you and want to please everybody and make everybody okay. Sometimes we we get eaten in that space. And so I think that cultivation of that male energy really helps you go, hey, everybody, here's a boundary. I'm gonna go train, maybe inappropriate jokes with your friends, not just like, should we get together and look really cute? And like throw a really well organized baby shower. It's like, you know, kill me. Sometimes it's just like, you know, my husband and ho, you know, like with your girlfriend. So I think sometimes just being able to be in all sides of ourselves, all of us.

• 44:33Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, it's kind of reminiscent or analogous to me. And like, follow me here for just one second, but like the breath work being a time for us to switch between parasympathetic and sympathetic. We need to use maybe training and have have other times in our life that we can switch between male and female. And having that ability to switch, you know, it improves your HRV when you're switching between sympathetic and parasympathetic, but definitely can have, maybe there's some other metric that it improves, being able to switch between male and female energy.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, my approach with women.

• 45:06Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Cause I have four in my house.

• 45:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You do.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  So I have.

• 45:10Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You've had to learn that switching.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  I'll just simplify it. I'll simplify my, my.

• 45:14Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Please.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Coaching technique for women.

• 45:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I can't wait to hear this.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  My first student is, is confidence building.

• 45:24Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Hmm, okay.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  However that looks, and she said it in her way, but for me, I feel it's about confidence building. Like I've had, you know, and I've had stuff in the water where a woman will come up to me and go, hey, I really need help, you know, I'm trying to surf a wave and, you know, and I suck. And I looked at her and I said, just repeat after me, I don't suck. Your lesson's over. Like, and so like, whether it's in the ice tub or it's in the thing, it's about confidence. Because I think part of it is that women, because they're so analytical and they're also taking care of everybody and have to look at all the potential dangers. So they're, they're predisposed to some negative more than men. They have a negative approach to it because they need to, to make sure that, you know, we don't all die.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  And so I think giving them confidence, like, you got this? No problem. This is your, you know, you're, you're good. Just building confidence and whatever they need for the situation. So that's my, my approach to helping a woman or a girl or, you know, my daughters or just build the confidence in them and give them that, that. Kind of self-strength.

• 46:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That's excellent. I love that. You know, it reminds me of this Instagram video I saw of this man and his eight-year-old daughter and just he had her yell confident phrases at the top of her lungs, just saying, "I am powerful. I am beautiful. I can do this." And this girl, she went from like being very meek and saying it really quietly to just really yelling it out. And I was like, "I want to do that with my daughter one day."

• 47:03Speaker 02

  I think, because also what happens is this sort of our world, our culture tells us we're one or the other. And my hope for people is certainly to do it any, or for women to do it any way that's right for them. Right? Like you want to be the CEO, you want to have a family, you don't want to have a family, you want to have kids, you want to have a partner, whatever that is. But that ultimately you're designing your life based on the things that you really want. And it's not an either-or proposition, because our world tells us it's either-or. You're either really strong and nobody's going to take advantage of you, or you know, you're at home and you're a doormat. And I think for me, the invitation and the hope would be is that we're all, all things, all the time.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  And that, that you should just ask yourself, "What do I think is going to make me feel satisfied?" And it isn't, "Laird has to lose in order for me to win." That's actually not the case. I can win and he can win. Because we live in a world sometimes where it's, it's really contentious. And it's like, "Well, the only way I can win is if the other group loses." And I, I don't think that's so accurate.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Well, I think, and I think culturally, like if you look culturally and you look at social media, I think you have a, if there's a lot of, for women, there's a lot of buildings, a lot of insecurity. There's a lot of insecurity in it. Like, "I don't look pretty enough. I don't have the thing." Like all these things are building the insecurity. And so I think that that, we have to combat that. We have to combat that, that, that through whatever way we give them confidence, right? However, if they're smart, if they're, if they're a good athlete, or, but something- That's legitimate, not just if I have a pretty dress and I write, wear the right mascara then and that's gonna make it. So I think that that that's a another thing, right?

• 48:50Speaker 01

  It's like, give them that strength through something that they're, you know, intelligent, athletic, intelligent and athletic. Whatever, you know, artist, whatever it is, whatever they, you know, and again, I think it goes back to for everybody. Male, female, which is find that thing that your special purpose. Find your gift, find your thing that brings you fulfillment, that you really are passionate about, that gives you, gives you enjoyment. And, and, and takes effort to get us good at.

• 49:18Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Whether it's a, you know, a violin or a paintbrush or whatever, you know, or a soccer ball, whatever, whatever that. You know, seek your mastery, right?

• 49:27Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  And so I think that that's a big, and I think we all need that, we all need to find.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  We all do.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  What, what that, what that is.

• 49:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  I think we forget too, in, in health or wellness, the, the, the top is adaptability. And resilience.

• 49:41Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Sure.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  So how are we training and living and what are we consuming? Food and reading and who we're hanging out with? That's helping us and what practices do we have? What habits do we have that are helping us be adaptable and be resilient?

• 49:56Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And resilient, right.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  And, and, and I think that doing this this long, that seems to, to really be helpful.

• 50:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, I think adaptability and resilience are just two sides of the same coin. They both develop each other.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  They do.

• 50:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I think it's really important, and you guys talk a lot about resilience and, um, you know, one of the things that I think about. In what you just said, bringing back, bringing us back to your relationship with each other. Is when you have an argument, you find a way for both of you to win. And I think that's a really powerful mindset shift for couples, just in relationship in general, but especially couples. Because, you know, we all know many people that their relationship deteriorate because they're always trying to win the battle.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  What's the, what's the line? Win, win an argument 10,000 times and see what kind of relationship you have.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:48Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That's true.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  You don't want to build that.

• 50:50Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  And then also a sense of humor, right? Like, I mean, today, I was, I had a work, I had a, something at work called like around 7:15. And then we, I had, I was talking to our business manager and it was, you know, something complex. And I think something about that clearly had irritated Laird. I was on the phone and Laird walked out the door to turn the sauna on, but he slammed the door. Right? And I was like, oh, whoops, you know? And I thought, so then I worked out and then I came and found him in the sauna. And then I said, hey, and I want to also say that Laird is the one who has really taught me how to have a comfortable confrontation.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Maybe I wish I didn't.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  I was not, I was not good at that. I wasn't good at it at all.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  Confidence, here we go.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  So I go in the sauna and I was like, hey, we're going to leave, you know, interview. And I go, do you want to talk about what the door slamming was about? And then he said to me, he said to me, he goes, well, I was just shutting the door on all that.

• 51:52Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That's a good answer.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  And I was like, I was like, meaning like the house, all the bullshit that the house represents, like the people in the house, like whatever the conversations, the details in the house. And he's like, I was just shutting the door on all that, right? And I thought, I go, oh, that's actually really, really funny.

• 52:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That is funny.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  And I thought, but, but listen, we've had our trials and tribulations. Early in our marriage, we had our own challenges. I, I had, I had, you know, terrible, you know, skills on being, speaking my piece. So I could, if I could say, you know, this idea of in all your relationships, your work relationships, your, your partner, your friends, if each person comes with this idea of how could I make your life better? Could I make your life better? And hopefully, you know, you'll do the same. And when you do that, that also bleeds into, in the confrontation, because you're not thinking, how do I win? Because that's how I definitely thought, right? As a competitive athlete, I was like, I need to be right. I'm very proud also. And, and I think too.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Write this down.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  I, no, it's true though. And I also somehow. We aren't taught you can have people who are completely in opposition and they're both right.

• 53:00Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That's true.

• 53:01Speaker 02

  So confusing. It's like, wait, what do you mean? I need a winner. It's like a draw. What is that? What's the point in soccer? When I see that, I go, I don't understand. And so I learned like, oh no, it's better if I'm thinking about, what is he saying? Because, because that, there's an interesting thing in there, which is, let's say you and I are having a disagreement. And you're kind of right. Let's just say if more of the chips are on the right side. But I make a point to you that is valid. For you to say to me, hey Gabby, you know, I can hear that point and you can do this with your children. That means a lot to me.

• 53:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, it's a great technique.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  That you acknowledged, even though you're kind of right, that you saw my point. And I think that I have really learned that because Laird is really good in uncomfortable situations. And has created safe environments for me to learn those lessons.

• 53:55Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I think it's so critical that you give whoever you're having a disagreement with, even if they're winning, to give them a little win because it just de-escalates the whole situation as well.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I see your point. I use that with my teenage daughter. She can be off the rails and she's completely lost. I always try to teach them like, if you act like that, you're going to kind of lose all your valid points. But even when there's hysteria, I'll go, she'll go, oh, no, no, no. And I'll be like, I can see that point. And I just slip it in there really quick because it does, it does help.

• 54:25Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, also helps to create that safe space where you don't feel like any argument with this person is just going to lead to just them trying to prove themselves are completely right all the time.

• 54:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And so creating that safe space, which, you know, seems like you've done a really good job in your family doing this is a.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Well, saying you're sorry.

• 54:44Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That's another one.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Saying you're sorry, just saying, hey, you know what, I was, I'm sorry. And sometimes I'll say, I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  That's true. I think I know the

• 54:54Dr. Darshan Shah?

  It's so hard for me to do.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Just to diffuse it, just to diffuse, like if it's that simple, just to go, hey, you know what? I was, you know, I was, um, yeah, because it's at the end, I think that's so, again, I mean, it's all about ego too. Part of it's like, okay, I, you know, like, I'm not going to say I'm sorry. Where does that lead? That just leads to like a standoff, which nothing good comes of that. And so it's easier sometimes just to be like, hey, I'm sorry, even if, even if you were right, or even if it, what you were saying was valid, or, you know, it's like, I'm, I'm okay with that. Like, it's like, okay, like, can we, can we just be past it? Cause once you get past it, then it's gone. It's funny how that is. Like, you can make it if you don't get past it.

• 55:39Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  The thing will just live, just keeps living. And I feel like I want to get that. I think that's part of the reason why it's important to say, not every single thing you're thinking, but say the thing how you feel, like say things to make you get past, so you're past it. Cause once you've said it, and then you work and you agree to disagree, or you both agree, or don't agree, then it's done. It's pretty, it's finished. And, but if you don't do that, it will, it has a life. It just continues to, to, and get men, and actually becomes bigger. Like, it becomes a bigger thing. My, I think I learned that as a little kid. My dad always, you know, like if you, you just always had to face things. Like, if you got a problem with somebody, you go to their house. You knock on the door.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm here. What's going on? Like, you're mad at me, or I did something, what'd I do? Like, and whatever, whatever the situation was, it usually just resolved it. It just, it made it, it resolved it quickly, uh, one way or the other. I mean, it could have been a brawl, but it still was resolved it, but it would, but it would, would cure it. It would, it would solve it. And, and I think that, that, that's really worked well in, in, for me in my life to, to just not let things hang.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  Because that's, because you're not working from fear, though. I think sometimes a lot of the rest of it is because we're scared.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  You know?

• 56:58Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. Well, what a beautiful lesson your dad taught you to just go to someone's house, knock on their door. And that's why you're not scared of confrontation.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  Oh, it's so uncomfortable. I see it coming. I go, here we go. And I mean, when it's not at me, me, I'm used to it, right? But when I see something and I go, oh, here we go. And, and most people aren't accustomed. That's the other thing that's interesting is to watch the technique of being confrontational and staying in love of love.

• 57:23Dr. Darshan Shah?

  For sure.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  And it's hard to do.

• 57:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, it's a skill that you guys have mastered together. And what I love about this conversation is I get this feeling that you've you guys are just both incredibly emotionally intelligent people, but you seem to have developed this together over the course, what is it, 20 years now?

• 57:43Speaker 02

  No, this year we'll be together 30 years.

• 57:45Dr. Darshan Shah?

  30 years.

• 57:45Speaker 02

  We'll be married 28 years.

• 57:47Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I got my math wrong.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, don't make that face.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  When you roll two stones together for 30 years, they start looking alike.

• 57:58Speaker 02

  It's a lot of dinners, buddy. It's a lot of dinners.

• 58:03Speaker 02

  You know, it's like anything in life. Do you want to make it fun and as good and healthy as it can be? And are you willing to do the things it takes to do that if you believe in it? I don't mean at the cost of everything that you are or what you believe in, because both Laird and I, I believe, are pretty willful and have held on to our points of view and who we are. So it's not about that. It's not about surrendering yourself. It's finding the way to be your full self in that situation, but with those kind of ground rules.

• 58:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, I think when you go ahead, I'm so sorry.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  It's called mutually assured destruction.

• 58:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have that too.

• 58:42Dr. Darshan Shah?

  For sure.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  We do actually have that. It helps.

• 58:46Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  It's fantastic.

• 58:48Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, exactly. At least you know that it can only go so far.

• 58:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I love it.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  The winner and the loser loses.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 59:03Dr. Darshan Shah?

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• 59:46Dr. Darshan Shah?

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• 59:55Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So, you know, one of the things I wanted to really talk to both of you about is how you have, you know, you've had this relationship with nature, Mother Nature, for your entire life. And it's so special and so deep. I don't think there's many people in the world that have as deep of a relationship as you do with Mother Nature. But I find that most humans now have completely disconnected from nature. And I feel this is a major reason that our health is deteriorating, both mentally and physically. And I love to hear from both of your perspective, you know, you've obviously grown up with this incredible love of nature and learned so much from nature. And you've watched him through this and you have a love of nature yourself, too. And we're all lucky that we live in an environment, Malibu, where we have, I would

• 1:00:40Dr. Darshan Shah?

  think, you know, some of the best connection with nature you can have in an urban environment. But how can you coach the listeners of this podcast that are maybe, you know, in the middle of the city in Chicago and they're in an apartment? And how do they find that connection again? And it's more than just going out for a walk, right? Like, how can we talk about this? How can we help people?

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  I'll let you start.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Well, I first of all, start that Gabby's mom used to train dolphins when she was a child and like, drag her around in a raft with a dolphin. So she definitely has, grew up in the Caribbean. So she has a connection with nature.

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  But it's not the yearning.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  No, no, I know. I know. I'm just saying, but you have an attachment. But I mean,

• 1:01:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I did not know that about you, Gabby. That's incredible. What a, what a great, what a great experience.

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so normal that you live in a circus in Mexico City and wear lame outfitting at pull around a pool. I think, you know, a lot of things that aren't seen in our relationship. I know, right?

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  Explains a lot.

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  It's a thing.

• 1:01:42Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I wish I had like five hours.

• 1:01:46Speaker 02

  A lot of our.

• 1:01:47Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So I want to dive into that.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  Gosh.

• 1:01:49Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Go ahead.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  I need to be on a couch on that one. I think a lot of our connection is, is our values come from being in these sort of, these powerful environments. And, you know, I'll let Laird speak to it, but, you know, it's funny when we say go on a walk, right? You can go and be in New York City and if you walk by an area of trees and the wind blows, there's a sound. And so I think we think be in nature, or how about just be of nature? And so it's, it's sort of the ability, and again, I'll use a tree because that seems to be what would be available in a city. If you ever look at bark, the intricate design, like we'll go to museums and stand in front of a painting and ponder and look at it and be like, wonder what they're saying, but it's everywhere.

• 1:02:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  And, and I think for me, as somebody who doesn't have quite the connection Laird does, or like a deep need, Laird is not oriented correctly unless he is connected to nature. I can glance and I can run for a taxi and I can still see it and know it's, it's all around or a pattern of, of clouds or something like that. So I think it's, it's keeping the ability to notice.

• 1:03:01Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  Well, I knew when people say be in nature, but really it's observe nature. Observe it. Like observe the plant, the insect, the bug, the butterfly, the, the tree, the, but observe, observe the creation. Like observe, because we, it's where we're from, it's what we are. So we, so in a way you're observing kind of part of yourself.

• 1:03:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That's so true.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  And and so observe it because they're everywhere. The birds are there, they you know, I mean, and you can find it in in any, I mean, the insects, the thing like all of these things are all there. You don't go, you go on a walk with with with the thought of observing.

• 1:03:44Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Right? Not just walking. Are you walking blindly? Are you looking at your phone? Are you are you? But are you observing? Because it's everywhere. And if you really take a half a second and start to look, and now it's less in places where we've built huge buildings and gotten rid of a lot of all of the stuff. But it's all it's still there. It's every it's everywhere. And I think of observation leading to appreciation for what it is, because if you think about it, you think about all the things that we've made, right? You look at everything that the humans have made. You have these microphones of fighter jet, or just all the stuff that we've made. And then you just look at you look at some insects, or you look at some other trees or stuff and you're like, I mean, this is some complex stuff.

• 1:04:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  This is and this stuff is harmoniously that it it how it can be alive and how it eats and you know, what it eats and then where that goes and what happens with that and how it's interconnected with all these other living things. I mean, when you look at that, if you don't find something special about that, you better learn how, because that that is what connects us. That's what that's our. So I think it's the observation and the and the awareness to be aware of it, to be aware of the sunrise, the sunset, the you know, to be aware of all those things and what that does to you when you do that. Because it brings you something that you just don't aren't going to get

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  in an exercise, in a in a in a in a formula, in a you're not, nothing's gonna gonna bring it. And and you can even, I mean, you if you're in a cold place, just don't wear a. Feel nature, feel cold, feel heat.

• 1:05:24Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Take the jacket off for a minute and see what happens.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  Feel it, just feel, feel, feel it, look at the light, look at the, look at nature. I think that for me, I feel like it's be an observer and then an appreciator. And I think from that, if, if that doesn't have a systemic effect on you, I just, I don't think it's impossible for it not to. There's no way.

• 1:05:45Dr. Darshan Shah?

  It's impossible.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  It's impossible. You just will, you, you will, and it might take a minute. It might take a second and might take you a little while, but just go out with that intention. I think that you're, you'll be surprised what, what happens to you.

• 1:05:58Dr. Darshan Shah?

  It reminds me, you know, I, I go for like a ruck every Sunday morning in the, one of the trails in Malibu. And I remember, and I've been doing this for years and first just a hike, then a rock with a rucksack. But always with my headphones on, listening to a podcast. And then one day I forgot my earbuds at home and I didn't have it.

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  Lucky for you.

• 1:06:21Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. And it completely changed the experience, right? Lucky for me. I was mind blown that it was a completely different experience without the podcast in. And from that moment on, never, never do I bring.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  But you, but you were also sensitive enough to be aware of that.

• 1:06:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  That you actually allowed yourself to have that transition. Cause for sometimes it would be like, I forgot them, I'll, I'll, I won't forget them again. Versus, versus you allowed yourself to, to be in it and feel it and listen and, and see how it changed it. You were, you were sensitive enough and maybe that's part of that's because you've had a transition from not feeling good. And having the issues that you had into feeling good. And so your, your acute awareness of it. And I think that's sometimes two people take for granted, you know, when they're, when they have health.

• 1:07:10Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That's true.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Everything's good.

• 1:07:11Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  They take it for granted. They're like, oh, this is just, I'm taking it for granted. And I can say I, I'm victim of that just because I've been blessed with a certain level of health. But I can tell you what, when I'm laying on the floor, you know, because they chopped my femur head off. And I'm, and I'm not sleeping. I'm like, feeling good is a beautiful thing.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  You know, it's a wonderful, feeling good is wonderful and, and being, and then bringing an awareness and, and back to an appreciation to feeling good, to nature, to being able to take a, you know, a walk, a rock, being able to take a rock, being able to walk a shoreline, being able to walk, period.

• 1:07:50Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  It's like, those are.

• 1:07:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You don't want to wait till you've lost the ability to do that to appreciate it.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:07:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right? I mean, this is.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  No, I mean, if you're, and if you're not fortunate enough to be woken up before then, that, that's, that won't be fun.

• 1:08:06Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, I hope everyone listening to this finds those opportunities to get into nature and give themselves the mental space to truly appreciate what they're seeing. And for me, it was even hearing, like the sounds. I didn't realize there were sounds when you go up for a hike.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  How about all the unknown things in the bushes? You're like, what is that over there?

• 1:08:26Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly, right, exactly. It's, it's, it was a game changer for me and, um, yeah, I appreciate, you know, I just listening to you on podcasts, and both of you on podcasts, of course, but listening to this, this appreciation you have for the ocean is just mind blowing to me and just most, you know, most of humans might not even see the ocean ever in real life. And I think if you can make it happen, do not miss that opportunity to see the ocean.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's how I'm, I mean, that's how I met Gabby. So I really like the ocean a lot.

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  I think it's, I think that you could extend it even out, once you sort of can make space, that even if you go run to the grocery store, right? And you go to the fruits and vegetable section, right? All the colors, all these incredible things that are there for us to eat. It's, it's sort of everywhere and even with each other.

• 1:09:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:23Speaker 02

  You can see a person and say, you know, how's your day going? But they too are a part of nature.

• 1:09:30Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  And so even appreciating, if you live in these busy places.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  The, the variety of people.

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  It's all, it's all around, you know? And, you know, being able to just. In your mind, take a snapshot and go, oh, you know, it's like when you see a little baby or something, you just go, oh, look at the baby. And I think when we do that, it really is, it's, it really soothes us and gives us something.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then part of it is you just leave all your worldly cares behind.

• 1:09:59Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  For that one moment, when you're in that state of mind, you just leave all the things that are stressing you out, that you have to thing, all the email, the thing, all the stuff that's been, that burdens you for that moment you get. And sometimes the moment's just for a second, but that's a second more than not, which is a lot, and that's something to build from. And if it could be longer, depending on, you know, what the situation is.

• 1:10:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Release from that digital world, you can actually be in your, in your body, in your brain for a minute. It's so, it's such a great reset.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Just for, even for the shortest period.

• 1:10:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. So, you know, I think about you the other day when I came to do the podcast with Gabby and I saw you on a Zoom and you were in it and you were talking about your business and.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  You caught me in that rare moment.

• 1:10:48Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, yeah. And that's why I wanted to bring this up because I'm sure, you know, this is.

• 1:10:53Speaker 02

  Oh, the board meal. Board meetings.

• 1:10:56Dr. Darshan Shah?

  The board meeting.

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  They're like four hours long.

• 1:10:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And you're, you know, you're a founder entrepreneur again, right? And then the last 10 years, you started this company, Laird Superfood. And I'd love to hear a little bit about your reflections on going from, you know, athlete, pro athlete, now being in it in this business. And now you do have emails to answer and you do have phone calls and Zooms to be on. And how do you feel about all this?

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  He doesn't, he doesn't have that many emails.

• 1:11:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Oh, really?

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  He'll be like, yeah, send me that email. And then I hear my email going across the airway. Laird's not that dumb.

• 1:11:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Got it.

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  He has to be on the board calls, but all the little details, because it's, it's not really the best use of his time.

• 1:11:45Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Absolutely.

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  So he has somebody who can help him with that.

• 1:11:48Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  But how do I feel about having her help me with it?

• 1:11:52Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, there you go. Okay, so the person that he has is you to help him with it.

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course, because that's for a team.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, and she will take a certain load of it on just because.

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  It's easier for me.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  She and.

• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  It just is.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  That doesn't mean that I'm not seeing it and not participating. She doesn't know I'm looking. But yeah, but I mean, I'm obviously, I mean, this, this business is, I mean, as an athlete, as you know, and she, both her and I have gone through the process. I think mine, because I wasn't, I was more outside of the conventional structure of being an athlete. So I had to have sponsors and get, and get, and in the beginning, you're just, you're sponsoring other brands. And then I think as you evolve, you, you try to build your own brand to a point where you can do other, you know, you can become your own sponsor in a way is what happens in your evolution. If, if everything goes how you'd like it to go. Because in the beginning, other brand, other companies build your brand for you.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  And depending on how that goes, and if it's done in a, in a, you know, in a nicely arc, you know, good architecture in that process, you know, depending on how, what you endorse and how you build your brand and, you know, your values. And but, but Laird Superfood really was an organic, authentic thing that came out of just my love for coffee, my kind of lack of interest in, in things that aren't good for me. Like, so I didn't, I didn't use other products that were, that didn't benefit me. And so that, that kind of made me come up with a couple drinks that I'd share. And then eventually that evolved into the product itself.

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  So it was real authentic that way. It wasn't, I mean, I've had other, you know, apparel and hard goods and other, other fitness stuff and those, those things. But this, this was, and all, I mean, I think in honesty, I think all of it really comes out of, out of being authentic. Like, I just don't want to do, I don't want to do anything. I think Gabby and I are, you know, that's kind of. Part of our value system is, you know, if I'm gonna endorse something, I want, I wanna, I wanna either use it and be something I use or I believe in that I'm, that I, and I feel good about telling other people to use it, especially if, if, you know, I use a young man coming up and he, he looks at me like

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  I'm setting an example. It's like being a parent in a way. It's like, you, you wanna set an example of like, hey, I, yeah, this is good and I feel good about you, you know, it's gonna benefit you and I feel good about you using it. And I, and I go to sleep well when, knowing that, and I think it came out of that.

• 1:14:39Speaker 02

  And the, and the important thing with, with this brand is, you know, you, you, you know from doing X Health, like sometimes you, you get, you're luck, you're fortunate. Cause we've had other brands that, things that didn't work out. So I, I also wanna remind people that you might try things and they don't work, but that's cause you're getting the information you need to do, put into the next one.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I always tell people.

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  That's right. And, and the important thing with Laird Superfood is, you know, they, we put really strong guardrails on the brand very early that reflect Laird's values. So, you know, of course no artificial, but no natural flavors. And is it something that, um, the idea was if, because it's, people are busy. So if we're, it's like Laird was like, well, if you're already drinking coffee, could we put things in it that would maybe support you in a better way?

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  That's what I love, right.

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  And so it was, it was a, you know, an exchange versus now we're gonna have you do one more thing.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  Like for hydration, like there's so many ways to be. And I grew up in an environment where, you know, I could pick coconuts off trees and we would make stuff from scratch. And so I was used to that, but not everybody has that kinda, you know, they don't have the resources to get a garden out their door. And so how can we bring it to them in a way that, that, that keeps the integrity of, of the ingredients as best we can, given the fact that we have to send them all over the world to get them to people? And so that's the approach. But as far as, you know, thinking I'm gonna, you know, when I, I'm gonna have a, a food. Company, right? After I, no. Like, no, no, no.

• 1:16:16Speaker 02

  We didn't want to space it.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  That was the, I, I would, if you gave me a list of the top fifty things that I would do, I don't know if it would have made the list. Because I wasn't thinking about it, even though now that it exists and now it seems so natural, like, like, because it is an extension. I mean, I use ninety percent of the products myself, and I use these products on a daily basis, so. And you were before the company, right? This is something you were doing on your own.

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  Well, that's how it started.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  On your own body, that's how it started.

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, because he would give the coffees to his friends, and one of our friends is the other co-founder. And he was like, why, why couldn't we make this for people? And that's really how it started. Laird sharing it and then going, now I can surf instead of for four hours, for five hours, you know?

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  So it was around performance ultimately, right? It was around function, and how do I make, how do I make some energy more functional? And then how do I get the products that I want? So that, then that's usually, you know, that's where the boards come from, that's where the apparel comes from, that's where the fitness comes from. It all comes from basically that same kind of concept, which is, how do I get what I want? Because I don't see anybody making what I want. I don't see anybody doing what I want. So how do I do that? And so, and that's, I think that's really the foundation of all these things that we've been involved with, whether it's the training stuff, whether it's the equipment stuff, all these things have come out of that kind of, if somebody, in fact, I wish somebody was making it, because then I wouldn't actually need to go through the trials and tribulations

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  of having the business, I could just go buy it. Easy, but there isn't. And so, you're, I was in a way, I'd say forced into it, but that's where it came from. It came from the desire to...

• 1:17:57Speaker 02

  Twenty, more than twenty-five years ago. I mean, the joke about Laird is, does he own a t-shirt? You know? You know, a lot of times you'll see Laird on social media, because we're capturing him in moments, he doesn't have social media on his phone, and he never has a shirt on. And I can remember being newly in a relationship with Laird, like, a couple of years, and beans, coffee beans, showing up in the mail. Because he was so... Serious about this coffee.

• 1:18:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Wow.

• 1:18:22Speaker 02

  And so this is a, this is a very long passion.

• 1:18:25Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  And people don't realize like this is ongoing, but if he can put, you know, adaptogens or other

• 1:18:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  great ingredients in there, it's just a win. And I have to say, I've been on airplanes with Laird and there'll be a flight attendant or somebody who comes up and be like, you know, I really, I love your instant, you know, latte or whatever. And the real joy that Laird gets

• 1:18:46Dr. Darshan Shah?

  For sure.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  from sharing.

• 1:18:48Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Plant medicine. I mean, I grew up in Hawaii and we have a lot of plant medicine. So I always connected, you know, food is medicine.

• 1:18:55Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  Like.

• 1:18:56Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  And, and I understand the separation between, between pleasure food, comfort food, and then food that is

• 1:19:03Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Real medicine.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  Like fuel that's medicine. And because it's a thing that you're doing, it's back to what we talked about earlier. When you're talking about these, these rituals, these things that you do, like for your, for longevity, it's, it's a little bit of poison over a long period of time is a lot of poison.

• 1:19:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  A little bit of health over a long period of time is a lot of health. And so if you're just putting little things and you're implementing and whether it's your meditation or you're doing your diary and then you're doing your, you have your, your mixes and your performance mushroom or you're, you know, you're using turmeric in your coffee. Like these things over a period of time, all of a sudden have a, have a, have a systemic effect on your system. And it's, it's, it's better than just, okay, I'm going to have a, I'm going to do this fast for two weeks. And, and then you go right back into all your, your, all your old habits again. It's like, well, that doesn't, that's not great.

• 1:19:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  And it, and it tastes good.

• 1:19:55Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. And it tastes amazing.

• 1:19:56Speaker 02

  I mean, to, to be the voice of, of reason, it, it's also like, it tastes good.

• 1:20:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  It tastes really good.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  And you can see I'm passionate about it because, because like I said, I use this stuff every day. I feel good about it. I really feel good about sharing it. I always, I meet people, probably more than I should every time I'm like giving Gabby. Hey, can you send them a box? You know, we have the Gabby box and then I'll meet somebody. I'll be like, oh, I'll send you something.

• 1:20:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then he's like.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  Okay, here we go.

• 1:20:22Speaker 02

  It's called the Gabby box. It's not called the Laird box.

• 1:20:25Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I think I got a Gabby box in the mail.

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  I know that.

• 1:20:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, I got a Gabby box. Yeah. Film stuff. It was awesome.

• 1:20:33Speaker 02

  It's so fun. It's really fun.

• 1:20:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  It is. It is. You know, when you say, when you said, I was almost forced to do this, I know that feeling because like we created Next Health, there was nothing like this. And I was like, I just have to make a place where people can go and get all of these medicine in one place. So then I have to go, like, I was suffering because I had went to 30 different doctor's offices all over LA to get better. And I was like, why?

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I get that.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:20:58Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  Well, that, I mean, I think that's where, that's where those ideas come from, right? It's like you, you, you have a, a, a problem. Let's say, or, you know, here's a solution. Like I have a, I can't find what I want. And so I need to create that. And I, I mean, I think that does probably with all the, all the great things that have come about has been, you know, have been because of that, that formula.

• 1:21:20Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. And what I love about this too, is it can fit into my daily routine. And to your point, I think time is a massive multiplier of effect, right? And you do one little thing, which is just switch your regular coffee creamer to the layer super fruit creamer. And it might not seem like it had an effect that day or even the next day, but it definitely does after a year or two years, five years, 10 years.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. You'll see. I mean, I, I, I, I, it makes me feel good because I know I benefited from it. And I meet people and they're like, I love you and I hate you. I hate you because I can't drink my coffee without your stuff in it. And I'm like, okay, well, that's, you know, but, but you, it's a good feeling. And you know this because you're in the, the business of helping people. You've had a, you've spent your, you've given up your parts of your life for it and gained them back to help people. And there's something really, I think there's something that is very satisfying, very fulfilling when, when you know that you're, you're being of service, right? Like we're all looking for ways of being of service. And so it's like, hey, if I know I can help people and, and just be, even if it's just a little piece

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  of, of what's helping them, just one little piece. Cause all you need is a few of those. And before, before you know it, you know, they're a lot better.

• 1:22:32Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly. And, you know, I look at the, how you formulated the latte, for example, right? And a lot of people got used to drinking lattes because Because they got it at Starbucks and they're ordering the chai tea latte or whatever latte. And, you know, I shouldn't have mentioned Starbucks, but I'll just say it anyway.

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:48Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That drink in that plastic cup, in that paper cup that's lined with plastic with full of sugar and full of flavors and junk, it's so bad for you, you know? And to give someone an alternative like this, like not only are you putting something good into your body, you're eliminating the bad thing that you were putting in every single day. It's a massive, massive effect.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  And being, having something that tastes great too.

• 1:23:14Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  So all of a sudden it's like, and then pretty soon you start to crave it. Cause I always, you know, people misconfuse cravings sometimes like that, like the, the love for things.

• 1:23:23Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  That it's bad. Like we automatically, as soon as you hear, I crave it or I'm addicted, we think negativity.

• 1:23:29Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 1:23:29Speaker 01

  But really cravings and those things are equally as powerful for the good thing. You just have to give it enough time.

• 1:23:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  For sure.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  So once you start doing a practice where you're doing enough time, pretty soon you're craving things that are really good for you. Because that system is part of our biology.

• 1:23:44Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Sure.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  Like there's a reason why we have, it's just that when it gets hijacked by things that aren't good for you, then it's a negative thing. But if you can, if you can put the good things in that environment, pretty soon you're just drawn to it. You're just like, oh, I need, I need this stuff because it, because your body knows it's good for it.

• 1:24:01Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I think we're biologically wired to crave good things. It's just companies have hijacked that

• 1:24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  system and replaced it with things that are bad for you, but still activate the cravings.

• 1:24:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  Oh, exactly.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  I heard, I heard a great thing that a food scientist said that they would create a chip that would hit your palate harder than anything in nature could hit it. But then they designed it so that it would disperse.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  Would go away instantly.

• 1:24:26Speaker 02

  The flavor would disperse.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  Instantly.

• 1:24:28Speaker 02

  So when they say you can't just have one.

• 1:24:29Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:30Speaker 02

  It's because, of course.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  Well, and then we, and then we, and then we said, then the next question was, well, do you think that would make people overeat? And they're like, oh, absolutely not.

• 1:24:39Speaker 02

  There's no connection.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  Like as soon as you taste it, it has an amazing effect and then it goes away instantly.

• 1:24:44Speaker 02

  It punches your palate and then leaves.

• 1:24:47Speaker 01

  There's other drugs.

• 1:24:48Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:24:49Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I think I've heard this one before.

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  That has been highly successful.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  I mean, sometimes I think it's all not so nefarious. I think it just happens that it evolves out of, out of putting pressure to make more, sell more, do more, like all of that. So in a way, almost sometimes it's not like, hey, we're going to be so tricky, but then there, you know, make it cheaper, make more off of it. Like all those kind of, all those things that gets, that, that happened in the process are what eventually lead it to this place that it arrives.

• 1:25:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  The, the destination isn't great after.

• 1:25:25Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, it started off, like all these food companies started off making rations for soldiers for World War II. And there was like feeding our soldiers. Thank God that they were there and they were able to make enough food and get it over there intact so they could eat it. But then it turned into this.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, they learn and then they, because they learned how to do it. And then they're like, well, we have this giant mechanism. What do we do? Oh, just shift it over to the, yeah. I mean, that's how a lot of the stuff comes out of, like everything comes out of war.

• 1:25:55Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Well, I mean, gosh, I had a million questions for you guys, but I know, I know that I'm going to have you guys back on the show again one of these days. Is that right?

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, anything, anytime you ever want. If, if there's anything that feels important, though, or to your audience, ask us now.

• 1:26:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. I think, you know, we're in this moment of history now that there's a lot that's becoming more important and people are finally realizing it, especially in their own health, whether it be mental or physical. I always say that, or even spiritual. And I think these conversations are so important to have. And I'm so glad for this platform, this podcast platform, because we finally get to spread good messages besides just, you know, the advertising, the negative messages that are on, on TV a lot of times. So it's really, I'm so, I'm so honored that both of you came today to have this conversation and I can't wait to continue it. But I would love to just hear from both of you. Like, what are you excited about? What's, what's really exciting you right now? And then what's coming in your lives or in the world or anything?

• 1:26:53Speaker 02

  Go ahead. I wonder what you're excited about, Larry.

• 1:26:58Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You know already?

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I mean, we have a lot, a lot of irons in the fire. So there's a lot. I mean, we have our, our daughters are becoming women. And that's, that's, it's, that's exciting, scary. Uh, all those emotions that go in, uh, with, with that. I mean, there's a lot of work stuff.

• 1:27:19Speaker 02

  Uh, what are you really also excited about?

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  The ocean.

• 1:27:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  Giant waves.

• 1:27:24Speaker 02

  Looking for waves.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have waves. I have, I have.

• 1:27:27Dr. Darshan Shah?

  There's a big waves coming up?

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Big ocean.

• 1:27:29Speaker 02

  He's so inconsistent.

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  There's a big ocean and I mean, as far you mean on the selfish side, just about me, me personally, like.

• 1:27:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Is there a wave coming up?

• 1:27:37Speaker 01

  Well, there's, there's. Yeah, there's a, I mean, the ocean, there's some new things that I'm looking at. I'm really interested in doing things I haven't done before.

• 1:27:47Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Hmm.

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  So that's where they.

• 1:27:48Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Could that be?

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  There's, well.

• 1:27:51Speaker 02

  Foiling locations that haven't been.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Like out of sea, like out in the, out in the wilderness, like in, in kind of some more like more severe remote locations that may be coming to a screen near you at some point, but, um, but yeah, just the, the frontier of what, what's, I mean, our, our frontier in the ocean is, has expanded exponentially just recently.

• 1:28:15Dr. Darshan Shah?

  With the foils, right?

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  With the foils.

• 1:28:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  These are waves that you probably can never do before.

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:28:20Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And now this foil is allowing you to get to waves that you would never even considered before potentially.

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it just opens up where you can ride and what you can ride. So now all of a sudden, you know, the middle of the ocean becomes ridable. So if you, I mean, you know, in a dream, like if you ever see those, those, uh, movies of the giant ships with the waves breaking over the front of them out at sea. Well, I just envision a ship and then a guy going by foiling like waving and everybody in the towers like fearing for their life and the other guys are, you know, having a nice slide down the mountain.

• 1:28:53Speaker 02

  The thing is, I've heard, I've heard things like this in the past and before I'd be like, oh yeah, yeah. And then. They sort of happen, so I I'm convinced.

• 1:29:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Now it's reality.

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  So I have some ideas, yes.

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  I have more ideas than time, but.

• 1:29:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  How how long you been foiling for now?

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  Uh, my focus, probably the last fifteen.

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  Sixteen.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, fifteen, sixteen years I've been focused on on hydrofoiling.

• 1:29:18Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Wow, and has technology like recently improved to where you can do even more?

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Wow.

• 1:29:23Speaker 01

  Well, it's evolving now because there's so many more companies in the field. And so that's that's creating the the kind of R and D because it has the value. So that's really speeding up the the development and the wave shapes and all of that stuff. And then our skill has improved because of that and then also because we've been doing it longer. So we combination of of the way the equipment's evolved and then our skill has evolved has created opportunities for us to go and do some unique things that again what that haven't been done. I think that's the part that really is the most in, you know, being able to go and do something in the ocean on a wave that that hasn't been done when you feel like you've done a lot of the stuff just because of the time. So that's.

• 1:30:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And it sounds like someone's going to be videotaping this for all for all us to see and watch.

• 1:30:12Speaker 02

  They like to keep secrets now.

• 1:30:13Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. I do have a tendency to to not post everything I do.

• 1:30:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:19Speaker 01

  And not say everything I do. Because what's interesting is, as you know, in the world we live in, if it's not on on social media, it's not really doesn't exist.

• 1:30:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, right.

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  It's crazy. No, it's not happening, right? What do they say? If a tree falls in the forest and no one sees it, does it fall?

• 1:30:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Does it really happen?

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  I'm like, it does. I can tell you.

• 1:30:40Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I love it.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  It falls and it falls hard.

• 1:30:42Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. I love it. I can't wait to see. I cannot wait to see some of this stuff. And Gabby, what about you?

• 1:30:48Speaker 02

  Mine are a little more demure. I'm sorry. I'm working on a book. It'll be my third book and it'll be out next year and I write it with. This is the third I've written with Karen Carbo, who I wrote my first two with. And it's just the next iteration of kind of my observation around. For me, it's about about wellness, but kind of trying to consolidate. But also simplify and and I'm really enjoying doing my podcast and I have a something I share with you, a digital platform I'm working on that, you know, I'm very inspired to do and and once I knew my youngest daughter was going to be sort of rolling, I kind of ramped up some

• 1:31:27Speaker 02

  of these projects. So I'm, I'm excited to, to see them come to fruition and completion.

• 1:31:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, I'm excited too, because through books, through your digital platform, all the things we talked about today, like the coaching aspects and the mindset, you can just expand it to many more people. So many more people can benefit. And, you know, I think that I'm excited for all the stuff that you're doing.

• 1:31:52Speaker 02

  Well, thanks. I just, you know, I always like to remind people, it isn't about being perfect. And I think it's really important for people not to think that that is the goal. And, and actually, I will mention one more thing. I have a project with four other women that I'm doing as a TV and YouTube and such, because I think also kind of bringing together health from a female lens, not, not just by women for women, but from that female lens, I think is helpful because I don't want to say there's more of a practical sort of perspective, but there it's just that, all those things that you're considering if you're trying to be a working parent and be healthy. So.

• 1:32:32Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So I know the women that are involved with you and they're amazing powerhouses as well.

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're badass. I'm the peasant, low, low man on the pole, but I just have a different experience. Yeah.

• 1:32:43Dr. Darshan Shah?

  But yeah, definitely badass women coming together. And when I started this podcast, I said, one of the core tenants here is we're going to be talking to men and women. So 50% of our podcast guests have to be women. And so we're always trying to make that a part of our messaging, because so much has been so male focused for so long in the research and everything on health and wellness. So.

• 1:33:04Speaker 02

  I always laugh that they even say that, I think Stacy Sims told me this when we worked together the last time. And she was like, yeah, the Oura ring or some of the wearables, the algorithm isn't actually completely accurate yet for women because of the studies. So I think it's just considering how similar and how different we are and the different phases and stages.

• 1:33:26Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:27Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Well.

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  We're similar.

• 1:33:31Speaker 02

  Some things.

• 1:33:32Speaker 01

  We're different?

• 1:33:33Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Sometimes.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  That's yes.

• 1:33:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I love it. I love it.

• 1:33:37Speaker 02

  Well, we really appreciate you. Thank you.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:39Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I really appreciate both of you coming.

• 1:33:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:42Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Where can people find Laird Superfood?

• 1:33:44Speaker 02

  They can go to lairdsuperfood.com. It has the largest, but also Sprouts and Costco has some interesting SKUs of ours where it's like, we only do a two-pound bag creamer for them and now our coffee's there with the adaptogens.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  Whole Foods.

• 1:33:58Speaker 02

  Whole Foods.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  Amazon.

• 1:33:59Speaker 02

  And, you know, Health Foods and, yeah, wherever they can.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  Our site has the, has the best, has all of the, you can just see everything.

• 1:34:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, but your local, all of those local markets really are supportive of the brand.

• 1:34:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, I see it everywhere.

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  Actually, too many stores to know the list.

• 1:34:15Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  And if they don't have it, just say, hey, how come you don't have it?

• 1:34:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, what's going on here?

• 1:34:20Speaker 02

  For real. I know. I didn't know in my adult life I'd be talking about shelf velocity and market penetration. I'm like, whoa, okay.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. What a learning experience.

• 1:34:29Dr. Darshan Shah?

  It's, it's fun though. It's like you're learning all these new things, right?

• 1:34:32Speaker 01

  It was like going to the school and we, we did, we do like 90, 90 meetings and the roadshow and...

• 1:34:38Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. When we went public, it was really funny, the roadshow.

• 1:34:41Speaker 01

  And just all that, it was...

• 1:34:42Speaker 02

  It was great.

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  I mean, for a guy that never went to high school.

• 1:34:44Speaker 02

  And we stayed, yeah, that's true. That is true.

• 1:34:47Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. It's like this mental reprocessing, like learning something new and talking about

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, beautiful.

• 1:34:52Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And it just keeps your brain young and vibrant.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Like, like, like these, like your shows.

• 1:34:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  Like Gabby, every week, you guys are every week are learning.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  Force learning.

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  Force learning.

• 1:35:00Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I love it.

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  Really good.

• 1:35:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So we'll do this again more.

• 1:35:03Speaker 02

  Thanks, Dr. Shaw.

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  Trickles up on me too. I need some learning.

• 1:35:06Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, right. Laird is like the deepest consumer of content.

• 1:35:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just what content?

• 1:35:11Speaker 02

  Well, thank you. Thank you, Dr. Shaw.

• 1:35:14Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Thank you so much. And let's, let's go downstairs and I'll give you a quick tour.

• 1:35:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, great.

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:35:20Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And, um...

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Thank you for your generosity.

• 1:35:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, thank you for all of your generosity.

• 1:35:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:26Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Please remember to subscribe if you liked this episode and give us a good review and share a link with your friends. It really helps to support all of our efforts. I also want to remind you that the information shared on this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended to replace professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please consult with your healthcare provider or physician before making any decisions or taking any action based on what you hear today, especially if you have any underlying health conditions or on any medications. Your doctor knows your personal health situation the best, and it's always important to seek their guidance.