Why You Keep Repeating the Same Money Mistakes (And How to Break the Cycle)

You can be earning good income, paying your bills, and trying to budget—and still feel like you’re stuck in the same financial patterns over and over again. Overspending when you’re stressed. Avoiding your accounts when you’re overwhelmed. Feeling shame about debt, even when life is the thing that put you there in the first place. In this episode, Shari Rash, founder of GWA Wealth, sits down with certified financial therapist Dr. Erica Rasure to unpack the emotional side of money and why so many financial struggles have less to do with math and more to do with behavior, stress, and past experiences. They talk about the difference between financial stress and financial trauma, how shame keeps people stuck, and why traditional budgeting often fails when it doesn’t account for real life—or real emotions. You’ll also hear why debt is often the result of life events, not poor choices, and how to start rebuilding your relationship with money without guilt or self-blame. This conversation will help you understand your financial patterns, recognize emotional triggers around spending, and take the first small step toward lasting change—even if you feel overwhelmed right now. You’ll walk away with a clearer understanding of why your money habits feel hard to change, how to shift from shame to progress, and practical ways to move forward with more confidence and self-compassion. If you’re ready to go deeper than just listening—if you want support, accountability, and a place to work through your money decisions in real time—the Everyone’s Talkin’ Money Club is here for you. It’s where these conversations turn into action, with live guidance, community support, and practical tools to help you build lasting change. You can learn more and join us at everyonestalkinmoney.com. Shari Rash is a financial planner and Investment Adviser Representative of GWA Wealth, a Registered Investment Adviser. The information provided in this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and should not be construed as personalized investment, tax, or legal advice. Listening to this podcast does not create an advisory relationship with Shari Rash or GWA Wealth. All investments involve risk, including the potential loss of principal. Any references to specific investments, strategies, or securities are for illustrative purposes only and are not recommendations. You should consult your own financial advisor, tax professional, or attorney regarding your individual situation before making any financial decisions. The views expressed by guests are their own and don’t necessarily reflect the views of GWA Wealth. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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• 1:25Speaker 03

  You can still be doing all the right things with money. Earning good income, paying your bills, trying to budget, and still feel like you're stuck in the same patterns over and over again. Overspending when you're stressed. Avoiding your accounts when you're overwhelmed. Feeling shame about debt, even when life is the thing that put you in debt in the first place. Here's what I want you to hear today. Most money problems are not math problems. They're emotional ones. That's why I'm excited for this conversation. I'm joined by Dr. Erica Raisher, a certified financial therapist and longtime financial professional who helps people understand the emotional and psychological side of money.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  Why we make the choices we make? How to change those patterns without beating ourselves up in the process? We talk about the difference between financial stress and financial trauma, how shame keeps people stuck, and the first small step to breaking the cycle if you feel like money has become an emotional roller coaster. Before we get started, I want to take a quick second to tell you about the ETM Club. Because conversations like the one you are about to hear are powerful. But real change happens when you have support, accountability, and a place to actually work through your money decisions in real time. That's what we're building inside the club. It's a space where you can ask questions,

• 2:55Speaker 03

  get guidance from me, and connect with other women who are figuring this out too. If that sounds like something you need, you can find all the details in the show notes. Now, let's get into today's conversation.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  Dr. Erica, you made this fascinating transition from traditional financial advisor to financial therapist. What was that pivotal moment when you realized that helping people with money wasn't just about the numbers? There's a whole emotional and psychological layer that needed to be addressed.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is an amazing question. And it was one that shifted my trajectory completely. And it was talking with people about the nuts and bolts of their finances, day in and day out, but beginning to notice that these things were very emotionally charged. People were expressing deep emotion and concern beyond the numbers, beyond the spreadsheets, beyond anything that we were talking about, and really getting into some of these "I feel" statements and just noticing that people were bringing their decision making in from a different place that wasn't just based on math.

• 4:08Speaker 03

  Did you find that that was more with your male clients, female clients, or across the board?

• 4:14Speaker 02

  I mean, it's interesting that you say that because I think males and females express things differently, but both express in different ways. And so I would say it was pretty 50/50 across the board. And it manifested in different ways. Women, I think, have that reputation of being outwardly more emotional. And I don't necessarily... Agree with that entirely, but they are seemingly more comfortable in expressing their emotions, especially when it comes to those more vulnerable emotions, right? The frustration, the uncertainty, the not knowing what I'm doing and being okay with talking about that, especially with maybe a female counterpart. Whereas men, on the other hand, you know, they're they're a little bit more stoic from time to time. And so you have to you have to dig a little bit deeper, but on the surface, it's there.

• 4:58Speaker 03

  Do you find that people are more emotional about accumulating assets or about debt?

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Oof, loaded loaded question. I think for some people, it's about accumulating debt. And I think for some people, it's about accumulating wealth and assets. I think both come with their own

• 5:18Speaker 02

  own issues emotionally. And, you know, when we're taught, you know, the kind of the good and the bad of personal finance. You know, these are good financial decisions. These are bad financial decisions. You know, if you want to put them into two buckets, accumulating wealth isn't a good bucket, right? And so naturally, there's going to be kind of this predisposition to stay away from the bad bucket, where debt accumulation comes in. But then there's also this middle ground, like you have to accumulate, you know, a home, you know, assets to and maybe you have to use other people's money or your own to to meet that end. And so there's there's kind of this weird continuum where people, I think, can get very confused. And where these emotions really show up is not knowing where to put my money, not knowing where to put my shame and and what to do with everything in between.

• 6:04Speaker 03

  It's funny with money. I feel like people either look at it as it's good or it's bad. Debt, it's either it's good or it's bad. It can't be both. It can't be one, it has to be one or the other. We, although we're emotional about our money, and that's really, you know, the main theme throughout this show is the emotions that we have with our money and trying to. Use our emotions for good and see how sometimes our emotions can hinder us from achieving great things with our money. I would assume most of your clients are coming kind of from a negative place with their money, the negative emotion. And how do you coach them through that?

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you're right. You know, a lot of us, you know, we play in the playground of absolutes. It's either black or white and there's very little in between. And so really, one of the very first steps, I love that you brought this up, one of the very first steps I like to take with my clients is, is letting them know that, hey, there's this big, big wide gray area here and everything is contextual, everything is, you know, a little bit subjective and we need to be able to give ourselves a little bit of compassion and kindness as we try and pull ourselves out of these absolutes and play in the gray area. So playing in the gray is a big, big part of what I like to do with and for my clients. It's a team effort here. But that's hard. When you have grown up, everybody has a different money experience, everybody has a different life experience, everybody has a series of different life experiences. And I think this is something that comes missed

• 7:30Speaker 02

  sometimes, is our financial experiences are often a consequence of a series of life experiences. And life, as we know, doesn't go as planned. And so there can be a lot of anchoring into the good things and especially the bad things, you know. And when I'm working with clients, I'm working with clients who have, you know, had had issues with overspending or are in a lot of debt. You know, I work with hundreds of clients every month, particularly at Beyond Finance, where people are in a lot of debt. And there's so much emotion hung up there because, you know, what's resonating in their head is, you know, the lessons they were taught in childhood from the important grownups in their life. And one of the things I hear all the time is, you know, if my parent were still alive

• 8:10Speaker 02

  and they knew that my credit score looked like this, or that I was in debt, they would be so ashamed of me. And that breaks my heart, even though I am in debt because I survived cancer and my husband left me. You know, there's all these things that are so wrapped up. And so it's It's so important to be able to give yourself permission to get out of the black and whites and into the gray.

• 8:32Speaker 03

  It is so important because like just using that example, they're beating themselves up over having this debt. But most of the time, credit card debt is not because of lifestyle. It's because of these one-off things that happened that we can't account for, or we just can't afford. Like you said, you beat cancer. That's not a cheap endeavor, right? You get divorced. That's not cheap. Or even just as simple as summer camp or a car repair, stuff that we know could happen, but we don't account for it in our day-to-day planning. And then you wrap that up into the shame that we're feeling when it's like, you're not

• 9:16Speaker 03

  doing anything wrong, quote unquote, on paper. If this thing didn't happen to you, you probably would be in okay shape and you wouldn't have this negativity. So do you have like that frank conversation with your clients?

• 9:31Speaker 02

  I have that conversation multiple, multiple times a week. And it's not a conversation that, you know, gives people kind of this, you know, excuse to not be accountable. And I always frame it that way. It's like, you know, we have to take our accountability for our role in this. But at the same time, we cannot consistently shoulder the blame of a system that is broken that wants us to shoulder the blame of a system that is broken. You know, most people are doing the best they can with what they have. And one of the things I say all the time is you don't know what you know until you know. And so we don't know what's going to happen in life if you have a massive, you know, health diagnosis, or, you know, you lose a partner due to death or divorce, or, you know, you lose your mobility or your job. There's so many things that can happen and we don't know what's going to happen in the

• 10:15Speaker 02

  months or the days that follow, or even the years. And so it's so important to say, all right, you know, you can control what you can control. We can't control these external circumstances. So you gotta let that part go. You know, you are not at fault for that. And so let's focus on the part you are in control of. You have this debt. We're in the debt. You're working back, getting your life back together, your new version of your life, which is awesome. Let's focus on that because oftentimes when we're in debt, we're so focused, so myopically on that debt and that just breeds that shame. You know, when you focus on something and it gets your attention, it's going to keep getting your attention. And so we neglect all other aspects of our financial foundation, our relationship with ourself, relationship with other people, the way we take care of our bodies and our minds and our hearts and our spirits.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  All of that goes to the wayside. And so really focusing on what you can be accountable. Yeah, we can take care of the debt, but we gotta also be accountable for everything else too.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  Right. And by just addressing the shame, because you can get into that shame spiral. If you don't remove that from the equation, in my opinion, the real work can't get done because you're just focusing on the shame and you're just getting caught up in the drama of it all, that you can't really get the work done because you're just, you're focusing on the wrong things.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Right. And you know, and I think the, there's a really important distinction to make when it comes to shame and guilt, because the two kind of are hand in hand. And you know, we often live guilt ridden lives. You know, if you're a mom, you get the mom guilt, right? But you know, you know, shame, when you're in a place of shame, you know, that is I am a mistake, whereas guilt is I made a mistake. And so with any client I've worked with, I want them to get from that place of I am a mistake too. I made a mistake. And the faster we can get there, the better, because wallowing in the shame is, is not going to do you any favors. It's okay to stay there for a while. Everybody loves a good pity party. And sometimes we need a pity party. You know, I am not a purveyor of, you know, positive toxic psychology.

• 12:16Speaker 02

  I think it's great stuff, but when you get into that toxic stuff of, you know, just think positive and everything's gonna be okay. That's, that's BS. What we need to focus on are, you know, the feelings we're feeling and use them as a path forward to heal us in whatever comes next in that transformative journey from shame to guilt to whatever happens next.

• 12:35Speaker 00

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• 13:06Speaker 03

  Well, you said the difference between shame and guilt, I am the mistake versus guilt, I made the mistake. But what about the situation where they didn't make a mistake and something just happened to them, life happened to them? How is the mentality different between those people and those that maybe spent their way into the credit card debt?

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so there are some differences, but there are some similarities. And it kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier. You know, life happens to us and sometimes we're unprepared. And so when people have a major life experience that has a financial consequence, like being in a tremendous amount of debt, you know, that big financial condition of being in debt. A lot of times, you know, it's like just trying to feel your way through it and removing yourself from the depths of, you know, I know that this logically isn't my fault, but in my heart, I should have had that emergency fund. I should have had these things prepared. And so that's where we beat ourselves up. In those type of situations, it's the coulda, woulda, shoulda. Whereas the people who are, in my experience with my clients, even myself,

• 14:11Speaker 02

  you know, I'm a recovering overspender myself. So, you know, I was just really good at not being able to give myself enough credit for the attempts I was making. And I see that with my clients. And so we take our failures very deeply instead of, you know, keeping trying and keep having that creativity and flexibility to keep trying new things. Because we live in a world of absolutes. If you fail at a particular form of budgeting, you are the mistake. You know, you're not doing something right if you can't get yourself out of this overspending hole. And so it's six in one hand, half a dozen in the other. Very similar, but different.

• 14:49Speaker 03

  You often talk both about financial stress and financial trauma.

• 14:55Speaker 03

  Can you help us understand the difference between the two? And how do you help someone recognize when their money issues have moved beyond just stress into the trauma territory?

• 15:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, yeah, I think that's such a powerful question because I think financial stress, you know, is a term that we can use in many different situations. You know, if you're worried about, you know, paying the bills, that's stressful. If you lose your job and you're worried about, you know, what kind of snacks you're paying for your kids, extracurricular, soccer, swim, you name it. You know, there's all of these things that can create additional financial stress. Your property tax book going up or your utilities. And so there's kind of the day-to-day stress that we encounter. And I think that does indeed come back to some levels of preparedness. And I think that some ways we can remediate some of that day-to-day stress is, you know, building our emergency funds and having a little bit of a cushion and getting into a daily practice of taking care of ourselves and our stress levels just in general.

• 15:49Speaker 02

  So when stress pops up, we can manage it and kind of make it go to sleep a little bit more quickly as we feel our way through it. There's that difference between just being kind of your average run-of-the-mill daily stress versus, you know, every time I go into a grocery store, I overspend. Or every time I go into Target, I overspend. Or every time, you know, the rent comes due, I break into a cold sweat. Even though I have the money, I'm worried that there's just not going to be enough there. And a lot of that can be traced back to experiences early on in life, observations people have made, you know, from childhood through early adulthood, often with their family of origin or important people or, you know, social circles that create these

• 16:33Speaker 02

  lingering feelings of not feeling worthy of having money, not feeling, you know, okay with being able to manage money. Kind of, I would say, you know, living a little in the scarcity mindset, you know, there's never enough, I don't know what to do. I saw my parents struggle, they didn't talk with me about money, I didn't learn a lot about money, or I had this experience early on, I had a parent that died. And, you know, all these things can really show up in a very stressful way that is markedly different. And that's typically where, at least in my experience, I see patterns show up where people have a really hard time pulling themselves out of that pain and that shame and that uncertainty.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  There's so much, I think, uncertainty also charged with the financial trauma because it In many situations, financial trauma really messes with your sense of identity. And financial identity is important. You know, identity, I think, is important for everybody, you know, and we all carry different identities. You know, podcast host, mom, teacher, friend, sister, daughter. All of these things are our identities. And so if you go from, let's say, making a hundred and fifty thousand dollar a year job to being unemployed for six months and you can't find work, that is a financial trauma because your identity has been wrapped up in that. And then you start thinking back to, you know, experiences in childhood where, you know, for some people, they might manage that just fine. It's no big deal.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  I'll find something else. It's cool. No biggie. Whereas for some people, that can put them into a massive spiral of anxiety and depression. And like I said, uncertainty, because they had an experience early on in their life that made that not okay.

• 18:12Speaker 03

  Can you help us identify financial identities? That's not a term that we hear too often. So how do you identify your financial identity beyond, right? Like my job or my earnings or anything, or my trauma? And then how do we create like a positive one? Because odds are, I'm assuming, most people's first shots at it aren't necessarily the most positive identity.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  What it is, is often we take on somebody else's identity, right? When we're trying to explore what our identity is, it's often the values and beliefs that were given to us. The beliefs that we were, that we've inherited from, from people. And so that really plays into our self-concept. And it really forms, you know, because of things like, you know, family or those cultural narratives, personal experiences. And, you know, with things like debt in particular, debt can really disrupt that. Just like any, any of these major life changes. But they, they have these tremendous emotional impacts, like we were talking about shame, guilt, a lot of fear, often isolation. A lot of limiting beliefs tend to show up.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  When, especially if you're dealing with a more negative financial identity, things like, you know, I hear all the time, you know, I'm just terrible with money. I completely suck at this. I don't know what I'm doing. And when you have that kind of identity to where you feel like you've lost, you know, who you are or not sure who you are because of your financial condition, especially if it's a more negative financial condition, you know, that can lead to things like continued overspending or things like overworking, for example, or even avoiding opening bills. And so that transformation piece towards building a new identity really starts, in my opinion, with awareness. I think, I mean, I tell people all the time, I said,

• 20:01Speaker 02

  you just really need to notice the patterns and the emotional triggers that are showing up, really from the elements of, you know, what do I care about? What brings that meaning to my life? And what are my identities? You know, I was mentioning earlier, you know, I'm a mom, I'm a daughter, an employee, I'm this or that. But what are the nuts and bolts of those identities? And in each of those identities, what do I care about? And expanding from that, you know, what are those relationships that make me who I am? And one of the things I tell all of my clients, when we're evaluating and bringing awareness initially to our financial identities, is asking yourself, are there any identities or parts of your identities that are actually costing you money? Right? If you know that you're a chronic overspender

• 20:47Speaker 02

  because maybe you had some trauma in early childhood to where you didn't have a lot of things. And so now when you do get money, you spend it without thinking about potential, you know, planning for the future. That is a part of your identity that is costing you money. And it's not only costing you money, but it's probably costing you some emotional bandwidth as well. And so, you know, taking that awareness and being able to parlay that into some behavioral shifts, like some small, consistent changes or, you know, very intentional and purposeful type of spending or saving or even intentional boundary setting or communicating with your partner or your family or your friends with what you're doing financially. You want to do financially and your goals.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  It can help that emotional healing release where you can rebuild your self-worth and your agency and your trust. And bring it full circle to where you are building your own financial identity, not a financial identity that belongs to somebody else. And I will say that this is a process. This is not something that most people can accomplish like overnight. This is something that that takes a lot of.

• 21:54Speaker 03

  Would you say communication with others is one is a good way to um keep your financial identity moving in the right direction?

• 22:04Speaker 02

  It can be, but at the same time, you know, it's. I think with anything important, when you are trying to make big shifts or big moves, there's that quote out there that I love. It's called, it basically says move in silence. And when you are getting ready to to make a big shift, I'm a big, big proponent of initially making those moves in silence. Until you can find a support system that you can trust, that you know will work for you. You know, I I think it is so incredibly important to have a support system behind you. I really do. But it has to be the right support system because there are a lot of people out there who are also struggling with their money.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  But who aren't as willing or as open and talking about it, who can really derail your efforts to make progress. And so it's like I said, it's just so important to really kind of maybe start figuring out, you know, your identity, your values, your beliefs. Recognizing your patterns, looking at your goals and setting some value-based goals. And making progress on those before you start looping people into it. Now, if you know. Right off the bat that your best girlfriend from college is is going to be your ride or die through this and she's gonna, you know, prop you up. I think that is wonderful. There's there's no harm in waiting, you know, or your spouse, you know, any anything like that. But it's so important to have that safety in relationships.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  And that safety first though has to come in that relationship with yourself. And so when I say move in silence, it's really healing that relationship with yourself and your money. Before you start expanding out into your social circle.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  You had mentioned that you're a former overspender and you also mentioned. If people are overspenders, like I spent way more at the grocery store than I expected or target than I planned for. When you're working with someone to prevent them from falling into excessive credit card debt, what are the deeper patterns or beliefs you're usually trying to help them uncover and shift?

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it varies person to person, but what I see a lot of are people who are using a financial coping mechanism, spending, to fill an emotional hole. That's really kind of what it comes down to in many or most cases, you know, where we're using financial solutions, you know, for an emotional problem. And, you know, it's not that much different than, you know, using food or drugs or alcohol. You know, it's kind of a similar, you know, process. And so we got to figure out where the hole is coming from. You know, you got a boat, it's got a leak, that leak is going to sink your ship and you know it's sinking your ship because of the way you feel. And so when you are noticing that this is a consistent pattern, you got to bring the awareness to it first, you know, and you have to level with yourself at some point.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  You know, you have to say, okay, this is happening, this is a pattern. I've tried the different budgeting techniques, I've tried this, I've tried that. Have you tried looking at why the, of what you're trying to cope with when it comes to your spending? And again, it could be, you know, I'll just use myself an example. I tend to overspend, or I used to, but I noticed after a while that I would spend whenever I had an extreme emotional reaction. So we're talking about black and whites and absolutes. If I was super upset or frustrated or sad about something, I want, I would overspend. But if I was also really excited or happy or just like had the best day ever, had great client meetings or nailed an exam, I would want to spend. Like it was very, if I was in the gray area, that's fine.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  But if I went into a store and I was, oh well, fine emotion, but we're bad, however we want to categorize that, I was at risk of spending. And for years I thought, you know, gosh, you know, what am I doing wrong? I help people do this for a living. Like, and so eventually I had to financial therapy myself and say, all right, we got to figure out what emotionally you are, you are dealing with here. And I started keeping a journal. I set the I set the numbers away. I kept a journal in my glove box. And so anytime I go into a store, I write about how I was feeling. You know, did I did I stick to what I intended to do and why and why not? And give myself that own private accountability and allow myself to again, find those deeper patterns.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Start to notice because I didn't know that my emotional extremes were kind of behind that. Until I saw those patterns in my journal and it felt comfortable and it felt safe. But also gave me a framework to go forward and that's something I share with all of my clients. Because, you know, sometimes it really is not about your inability to budget. I couldn't do it for a long time. I tried and tried and tried. When you get the emotional stuff on lock, it really helps everything else get that ball into place.

• 26:36Speaker 03

  Right, because your budget is not accounting for your trigger, which was the emotional. Positive or negative reactions to to life or something happening. And your budget can't account for that. It's just looking at numbers. It doesn't factor in our emotions. And even if you have the awareness of why you're spending or why things are happening for you financially. It's still hard to go from like having that emotion to zero emotion, which I think budgets have.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah. So I have strong feelings about budgets. I call them everybody's least second favorite B word. But because they they can feel so restrictive, they can feel so daunting. They can feel like almost a punishment for a lot of people. Some people I've met, I've, you know, I've worked with thousands of clients in my career. I've been doing this for over for almost 21 years now. And it I've met people who are just whizzes with budgets and this is not a big deal for them. But I've also met so many people who struggle with this because it feels like they're doing something wrong. And anytime you start something with a negative emotion anyway, where you're a little bit pessimistic, the the chances of it working out well are not very good.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  And again, budgets, I think, are also one of those categories where you're told like there's a right way to do it and there's a wrong way to do it. Narrative is shifting around that, which is beautiful. I think budgets can be flexible. I think budgets can be creative. I think you need to find the one that works for you. If it is a post-it note on your refrigerator, awesome. If it's in that sales spreadsheet, cool. If it's a sophisticated app or Clickin or whatever you want to do, amazing, find the one that works for you. But if you cannot find a budgeting technique that works for you, there's probably a good chance that there's some emotional healing that needs to take place first. And that that was my experience. It was, you know, I keep trying all these things and they're not working. And it becomes really overwhelming. And so you just kind of give up.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  And I think that's where budgets, out of all the financial tools, have the greatest failure risk. Because they're hard for people to stick to. And I think one of the other places that are one of the things that makes budgets hard to stick to is that people don't feel okay with accounting for a little bit of fun. You know, like I said, I work with a lot of people who are overspenders, who are in a lot of debt for life or other reasons. And one of the consistent things I've seen over the years is that there is so much hesitation. When I say you need to add a line item in your budget for some fun for you. It just clutch your pearls horrified. Like, what do you mean? Like, I'm in this financial situation. I shouldn't be spending money on a pumpkin spice latte.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Which if that is something that brings you joy and you're working 60 hours a week and you budget that that five or six dollars a week, go for it. If that is your thing, go for it. It takes the restriction off of it. It makes it feel a little bit more doable. Especially if you're trying to reach major financial goals, whether that is debt payoff or wealth accumulation, you still have to have that reward in there. We are, we are humans. We are conditioned to to love a little bit of reward when when we're working towards something. And leaving a budget without that, I think, is a huge risk people take.

• 29:49Speaker 03

  And budgets, if we ask someone to tell me your budget or tell me what your spending is, everyone always just goes to the essentials. Housing, utilities, gas, insurance, whatever it is, it's just those.

• 30:03Speaker 03

  Consistent-ish expenses. And that's all you think of. And it's like, well, how much do you spend on going out to eat? How or how much do you have allocated to that? And that's never thought of. I feel like that's never allocated to. It's just, no, my budget is this, these, these things. And they're, like you said, there's no room for fun. And that's where I think people get themselves in the hole. Or why budgets don't work is because we're not, for some reason, we're not trained or thought. We don't think to account for all of those extra stuff. But one, the extra stuff is what makes life better. And two, the extra stuff is what sometimes sets us over and why we blow our budget.

• 30:46Speaker 03

  So you're doing a major disservice to yourself by not being honest about that extra stuff.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent. You know, and there's, there's that very fine line, right? And you can see very quickly how, how it can shift one direction or the other. And so, you know, you're right, you know, I think, I think budgets are difficult for people to follow. I, I think they don't make a lot of sense for a lot of people because they really come kind of prepackaged as restrictive punishments. And instead of viewing budgets as restrictive punishments, I would really love people to eventually get to a place where they've made peace with the budget as a way for them to control or feel like they're in control. They're in the driver's seat of their finances. Because yeah, we, we need to know what's going in and out. I mean, that's, that is fact. We, we need to know. We can't just, you know, ignore it. I mean, that's, that's not healthy in any stretch of the imagination. And a budget is a key piece of our financial foundation.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  So we, we do need to get a grasp on what's coming in and coming out. But we also need to be very real with what is going in and going out that isn't a fixed expense. So what do those variable expenses look like? And make room for them. And I do think people overcomplicate this. I really do, you know, because there's so many, you know, financial budgets out there or people who will tell you, you know, you need to have, I mean, you need to know how much you're spending on hair and nails and movie tickets and. Gym memberships and right down to the dollar. You know what? Make a category that is just discretionary spending. Whatever that looks like, five, 600 bucks. Do essentials, do your fixed expenses, pay yourself first, have a savings expense. After that, have your discretionary expenses. If you really want to get into the nitty gritty of it, do it.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  But if budgets are overwhelming and you know, you've got $500 left over after savings and paying your bills, that you can do whatever you want with every month, do it. Find that balance. Find that balance.

• 32:30Speaker 03

  When you work with clients that have excessive debt, how do you build the debt repayments back into their, their budgets? While still, you know, having some discretionary?

• 32:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I've, I've worked with clients all over the spectrum to where, yeah, we can, we can, you know, work on, you know, one of like Dave Ramsey's methods or something and do a snowball method, pay it down like that. And that could work really well, uh, depending on your level of debt and the income you have coming in. And a lot of times your, your drive and your motivation and other obligations you have, right? Because a lot of people have kids, they have families, they have, you know, adult parents they're supporting. I mean, there's so many financial constraints on the majority of people anyway. And so, you know, if, if it's something that we can manage that way, we'll, we'll start there. But sometimes, you know, it gets to the point where you need something bigger. And so, you know, it might be looking at a bankruptcy option. I mean, that could potentially be an option.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  I think bankruptcy is, is another of those B words that it gets a, a bad reputation. For a lot of people, that is the best situation. And a lot of people feel a lot of shame about that, right? You know, so I would say that's kind of the two end of those extremes. But, you know, in the middle, there's also things like, you know, uh, you know, debt resolution companies. I, I'm the chief financial wellness advisor for Beyond Finance, which is a debt, you know, resolution company and, you know, they, they can make a, a big difference in, in freeing up cash flow for, for people, you know, as they're, you know, getting things set up and money is shifting a little bit. So that can be really helpful. There's also debt consolidation where, you know, people can, can take out, um, a loan at one interest rate and, you know, kind of pay it all off.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  But, you know, if you're at a point where You know, you're you're making minimum payments and they're taking up the majority of your budget. And you're completely maxed out on your debt to income. And the chances of getting a debt consolidation loan are very low. Resolution or bankruptcy might be the path forward. And so, again, there's extremes to all of it. But with all of these, you know, there are, I would say, varying amounts of shame involved. You know, and there's a lot of, I think, confusion about some of these these things out there. Because people don't know what to think. When they get to a point where they're dealing with massive amounts of debt, one thing I see over and over again is they don't trust themselves anymore. And so when you can't trust yourself to make a financial decision,

• 34:50Speaker 02

  it's very hard for you to trust yourself to make the right next step going forward.

• 34:55Speaker 03

  For someone who knows they're using credit cards as an emotional Band-Aid, but they feel completely stuck, like they don't know how to break that pattern, what's the first therapeutic step they can take to start breaking that cycle?

• 35:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, the very first thing is is bring that awareness to your your spending. Bring awareness to the cycle. Leave the judgment at the door. We are so keen and so intense sometimes with the way we we pick on ourselves. You know, you should be your best friend. Really, you should be. And so stop picking on your best friend when criticizing your financial choices. When you make that choice to do something about it, that is something worth honoring and celebrating. And we we need to normalize that. We need to normalize that. Okay, it's okay to sit down and say, I am an overspender. I keep doing this. I don't want to keep doing this. I don't know why I'm doing this. But I'm going to write it down on paper that I am who I am. And so how am I going to evolve?

• 35:53Speaker 02

  And then you start noticing those emotional triggers or notice those times when you're overspending. And I am a big advocate of journaling because I think if you can journal about your spending experiences for two weeks or three weeks or four weeks, you have something tangible, then you can take to a financial therapist or even to a financial counselor and say, yo, hey. Financial therapy, folks, like this is my pattern. I need to unravel why. And simultaneously be working with a financial counselor to kind of help you kind of implement some of those, you know, nuts and bolts financially as you go through that process. But it is, it's, it's, you start by bringing awareness, you start recognizing, recognizing those patterns and you just level with yourself with the kindness and compassion that you

• 36:36Speaker 02

  would likely extend to your best friend, to, to somebody you love very much. We beat ourselves up and every time we beat ourselves up, we're actually beating ourselves down and be as kind to yourself as you would somebody who's come to you struggling because that's, that's where we got to start here. We recognize those patterns. We bring emotional awareness to those triggers and then we follow those patterns to a place where we can get some help.

• 36:59Speaker 03

  If this conversation made you feel a little less alone in your money struggles, that's the point because getting better with money is not just about spreadsheets or willpower. It's about understanding yourself, your patterns and the stories you've been carrying around for years. The good news is those patterns can change. If you want more conversations like this, real talk about the emotional side of money and the practical steps to move forward, make sure you're following the show so you never miss an episode. If you want support as you keep working through this, not just today, but ongoing, the ETM Club is here for you. It's the place where these conversations continue with live calls, community support

• 37:43Speaker 03

  and practical guidance you can use. Until next time, let's keep talking money.

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