Pod Insights Equity Podcast Why SecurityPal is choosing 'nuanced capital' over more VC rounds About this episode During the SaaS crash of 2022, SecurityPal founder Pukar Hamal was just 14 months from running out of money. Rather than raise another round, he chose to restructure and focus on profitability — and he hasn't raised since his $21M Series A in 2021.
On today's episode of Equity, Hamal chatted with Julie Bort about what he calls "nuanced capital," a strategy focused on achieving cash flow positivity and sustainable growth rather than chasing the next big round. His approach challenges the conventional wisdom that AI companies need constant capital injections to compete, proving that even in competitive markets, there's an alternative path.
Listen to the full episode to hear:
Why Hamal chose restructuring over raising more capital during the 2022 downturn
How SecurityPal achieved cash flow positivity while competitors burned through funding
The "Silicon Peaks" vision: building a startup ecosystem in Kathmandu, Nepal
Whether AI founders get trapped thinking they need constant VC funding
Why "nuanced capital" might be a better long-term strategy than traditional fundraising
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Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 This episode of Equity is brought to you by Schneider Electric. Schneider Electric, advancing energy tech.
0:17 Speaker 01 Hello and welcome back to Equity, TechCrunch's flagship podcast about the business of startups. I'm Rebecca Bollan and this is the episode where we bring on industry experts to help us explore a trend in the tech world and dive deep. Big fundraises and big valuations make for big headlines. But taking VC cash isn't always the best way to grow a long-term company. Today, TechCrunch Venture Editor Julie Boort is talking to Pukar Hamal, the founder and CEO of SecurityPal, who raised a $21 million Series A in 2021 from some big-name VCs, but he hasn't raised since and he doesn't plan to. He advocates for more startups to think about becoming profitable faster and engaging in slower, more stable growth to open up more capital options without investor pressure. More insights coming your way, let's take a listen.
1:02 Speaker 01 Pukar, welcome to the show. I'm happy to have you here.
1:05 Speaker 02 Thank you so much. Happy to be here, Julie.
1:06 Speaker 01 Well, I invited you on because you have been an advocate of something a little unconventional, that founders don't usually have this sort of point of view. But you like to talk about something called, some people call it seeds dropping, but you have called it nuanced capital. So we're going to get into that. But before we get into all of those opinions, can you tell me just a little bit more about your founder and fundraising journey? Like, when did you found SecurityPal? How many rounds did you raise? Who are your backers?
1:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, my name is Pukar C. Hamal. I'm the founder and CEO of SecurityPal. I started the company back in March of 2020. It's a very interesting time to build a company. This is my second company that I've founded. So I actually ran into the current problem we're solving at my previous company. And in my previous company, we had raised some capital from some really incredible investors, so True Ventures and other firms, Foundation Capital at the previous firm. At SecurityPal, I always had the vision where maybe we don't need to raise capital until we figure out product-market fit, because that was the early mistake we made at the last company. We raised capital before product-market fit. We got to a million in ARR and then a year later, we ended up raising a $21 million Series A.
2:16 Speaker 03 This is for your current company, for Security Pal?
2:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's right. This is for my current company. So in March of 2020, we got started. So basically, the next late spring, early summer, we raised a $21 million Series A around, led by Craft Ventures, which was started by David Sacks. And then I had a bunch of other like follow-on investors like Martin Casado and Andreessen and Fred Keris, who co-founded Okta, Iman Abzad, founder of Incredible Health, and like just a litany of incredible executives and other smaller funds and capital allocators.
2:46 Speaker 03 But if I heard you right, you said you didn't raise that Series A until you had gotten to a million ARR, right?
2:53 Speaker 02 That's right.
2:54 Speaker 03 Did you raise a seed round?
2:55 Speaker 02 So did not raise a seed round. I did not go through an accelerator of any type. I really just wanted to avoid taking on outside capital until I actually had a business. I was just so scarred from the previous experience. Nothing to do with investors, anything like that, just like, you know, the types of pressures that are put on a company after it raises capital are so different. And I just really wanted to nail a solution, a product, and then the sort of like revenue pipeline. And then I really didn't go out there and fundraise. Like, there was no fundraising deck. It was really word of mouth got out from our early customers like Airtable, Figma and others. And we ended up getting sort of like a preemptive term sheet, I would say. And then it just allowed me to like refocus on the business. And then since then, we haven't raised a single round.
3:33 Speaker 03 What year did you raise your 21 million?
3:35 Speaker 02 We closed it, I would say, like, late summer of 21.
3:37 Speaker 03 Oh, right? In the frenzy of everything. All right. You just said a bunch of things that I want to unpack a little bit before we go on. One was the trauma of your first startup. So can you just give me the capsule of that? It sounds like you had to shut it down.
3:52 Speaker 02 Yeah, it was an aqua hire. You know, we ended up, we ended up getting acquired. The team was great.
3:57 Speaker 03 That's better than what I imagined. Aqua Hire is good.
4:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, I think like, you know, there's different types of Aqua hires. I think it was just a good place for like the rest of the team to end up. I would just say like, building a startup is really hard. You think you just need to like, get to like an early proof of concept and then off you go, raising tons of capital, being on the front page of TechCrunch or whatever. But there's a lot of things to figure out. There's product to be built. You know, you gotta figure out, go to market, you gotta figure out a retention strategy. And then you, you really have to do all of that while motivating and aligning a team of really smart people. If you don't have product market fit, all of that stuff just ends up becoming that much harder. It's like, not having product market fit, it's kind of like trying to like launch a rocket ship, but like, the gravity is just too strong. And like, it just keeps pulling you down, like the lack of product market fit just keeps pulling you back down to earth.
4:43 Speaker 03 Well, yes, you have to have a product that people want to buy.
4:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
4:47 Speaker 03 At a price that makes sense, which is sort of a basic business concept. But in Silicon Valley, we have mastered the art of capital. Lots of founders don't have those things and they raise a lot of money and they succeed quite well in the long run. But yes, it can be difficult. Okay, so we call it seed strapping. Sometimes you raise a seed round and then you never raise again. In your case, ace strapping or whatever.
5:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:14 Speaker 03 But you've called it nuanced capital. So how have you been able to do this without raising any more capital since 2021?
5:21 Speaker 02 I think there was a point where we definitely thought maybe we needed to go out there and raise additional capital towards the end of 2021 and really beginning of 2022. We were spending a lot of money, we were burning a lot of capital. But you know, the SaaS crash happened, so we were like 14 months away from running out of money actually at that point then, so.
5:37 Speaker 03 Wow.
5:37 Speaker 02 In many ways, you know, we shouldn't even be here. The challenge is like, how do you navigate that? And so, we decided, hey, like, you know, the more capital we raise, like, the more expectations there are going to be, the more we're going to sort of give up control of the company, the more pressure we're going to feel to just like hire a bunch of people that might not work out. And so, we decided to basically restructure the company, make some tough decisions. It was not a fun time for me, but lots of growth for myself as well as the other leaders on the team. We extended our runway and we tried to drive the company towards a cash flow breakeven, cash flow positive profitability. And I'm really happy to say like at the end of last year, we we hit that milestone right now.
6:13 Speaker 03 Wow.
6:14 Speaker 02 We've been cash flow positive and like that really helps sort of just like change the dynamic of like, you know, once you have some breathing room, you can look really far out and you can make the decision of like, what sort of company do you want to build?
6:26 Speaker 03 You hinged all this on difficult decisions. What do you mean by that again? I could guess.
6:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean.
6:33 Speaker 03 You want me to guess? Did you have to let go of people?
6:35 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think like it was, it was, it was tough, right? Tough decisions needed to be made, like dropping tools, having to part ways with really great folks. You know, those are like the tough decisions you have to make as like a CEO, right? It's not always like, you know, sunshine and roses, as they say, right? Like you actually have to make these like challenging decisions and and deep cuts. But I'm really glad we did because we always looked at it as like, it's not about holding on to the people then because they wouldn't have much to do and it wouldn't really be good for their career either to be part of a company that was eventually going to crash and, you know, burn.
7:04 Speaker 03 Well, I agree. It's both things, you know, to be able to make the tough decisions and also still feel about it, right? You don't want to get heartless about these people that you asked to join you. You don't want to ever be heartless.
7:15 Speaker 02 You'd never want to be heartless.
7:16 Speaker 03 But at the same time, sometimes you do have to say, we don't have enough money. We have to do something else.
7:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, and the way that the leadership team and and myself, the way we really looked at it was, we have an opportunity to create a lot more future jobs. And so the way that we think about it is like, hey, there's tens of thousands of jobs, potentially hundreds of thousands of jobs we have an opportunity to create over the long run of the company. If we crash and burn in 14 months, we're not going to have that opportunity. How are we going to create that economic opportunity in the future? And so like, that was the thing that like allowed us to go through the pain. Yeah.
7:44 Speaker 03 That's good advice. So do you think founders, particularly AI founders, because we are in an AI bubble, which I want to ask you about in a minute. Do you think founders, particularly AI founders, get trapped into thinking they keep needing to sell off chunks of their company, raise more equity rounds to VCs? Because basically their gross margin negative or they're not making money on selling the product itself. Do you think they get trapped into that kind of thinking? Because the product market fit, literally they're losing money on the product.
8:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, you know, it's it's tough to know how this era will pan out. I think like every bubble allows us to subsidize with venture capital. A lot of innovation, a lot of R and D, which then we all benefit from. Like lots of great technologies have been built during like bubble times. If there was no internet bubble, would we have like the internet that we know today? Because a lot of capital went into like laying out fiber optics cables and like the networks, which we all benefit from today. Because we have this like global internet that everybody benefits from. And now we can like invest in things like AI. So it's tough to know. Like, I'm not sure how it's gonna pan out over the next five to 10 years. I think over the long run. I think it's good for us to ask all these questions about what is the role of humans in a workforce? What ways are we going to add value in the economy? What are the things that are automatable versus not?
8:57 Speaker 02 I think these are like really important questions to ask for us as we um expand our footprint. I would say like, you know, beyond Earth in many ways, right? Like, hopefully, we end up having like colonies on the moon and Mars and all these like really cool things, right?
9:09 Speaker 03 All these things eventually.
9:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, eventually, so.
9:12 Speaker 03 Well, in the meantime, there's a lot of founders in early-stage AI startups. Who are probably losing money on their product themselves. You know, they have to pay the foundation models.
9:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, they have to pay the foundation models. At some point, I think like it depends on the business cycle, right? So like every five to seven years, we go through a business cycle, right? Like, there's a recession and all these things. And I think like that's when the physics of business building really matter. That's when you realize you need to have a positive gross margin. You need to have like real revenues and stuff like that. So long as like their physics are suspended, and in some ways, I think certain parts of a physics of business building are in some ways suspended. Because we feel like there's so much value to be created in the future. Hopefully, it pans out. Listen, I don't want anybody to to crash and burn and have to go through any of that. But, you know, in some ways, maybe we've seen the movie before. And then, you know, we'll see how it pans out. I don't think everybody's going to win in this space. There will certainly be certain winners that reveal themselves over time.
10:04 Speaker 03 Yeah. So do you think we're in a kind of an AI bubble? You had said as much to me when we had another conversation.
10:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
10:11 Speaker 03 You had said, I think that there's a lot of evidence to say that we are. But it's true that we don't know who the winners are. So that can create a bubble. But there's other parts of it, too.
10:21 Speaker 02 I think it's a frenzy. And, you know, it's hard to know when a frenzy becomes a bubble. Yeah, there's still companies that are like struggling to raise capital. I talk to these founders all the time who are like, have like decent businesses under the hood. I think there's a certain type of comparable that's put on AI companies like for venture capital, what matters is growth matters. Gross margin doesn't necessarily matter because you can't really having like improving gross margins, but okay, growth, it's not really a compelling story. You can't go to like your other partners or like the LPs and be excited about that. Oh, like the margin's really good. All that really matters is growth, how many users, how much data and all these things. And so like, I think the venture capital ecosystem in many ways is designed for good or for bad. I, I, I tend to think like it's good when it's good, it's bad when it's bad, but I think it's designed.
11:03 Speaker 03 I think that's a particularly Silicon Valley phenomenon because in New York, the VCs are very grounded. They dig in. They love a good gross margin.
11:12 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly.
11:13 Speaker 03 You know, whereas Silicon Valley growth, they figure if we've got the growth and we get to a gazillion users or whatever, we'll figure out how to make it profitable later.
11:23 Speaker 02 Right.
11:23 Speaker 03 And both sides have won, I've seen, and both sides have failed.
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12:10 Speaker 03 You weren't talking about this publicly and Gary Tan kind of publicly disagreed with you as he's an investor. This is his point of view, but you know, he did say, hey, look, seed strapping, taking one round and then never taking more money again while you grow your business slowly, responsibly and profitably is all great until someone comes out and outspends you. I'm just curious. So do you agree with that? Do you disagree with that? Obviously you're treating your business as if you disagree with that. You're still being cautious, but what do you think about that idea generally?
12:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, lots of respect for Gary Tan, Y C and everything they do for founders. I don't necessarily think I disagree with them. I just think, again, nuance matters, right? I think there are certain businesses where if you turn it into a capital game, yeah, like that's what matters. Like, I think if you look at what Uber and Lyft were trying to do, they had to raise tremendous amounts of capital because they needed to sort of like expand into the various cities before the taxi companies could engage in regulatory capture. They needed to get to a large enough like gravity, if you will, in that market. But I think there are just certain types of businesses where it just makes a lot of sense to just like raise a ton of capital and you can sort of chart that out. Again, the risk is higher, right? So like for every Uber, there's, there's actually like dozens and dozens of companies that tried to build an Uber, tried to follow the similar path, but it didn't work out, right? We don't talk about them now. We don't know about them now.
13:28 Speaker 02 But I think in the sort of like enterprise software or that world that we're in and the type of business that we're trying to build with the modes that we have, I think we need to take a slightly different approach. I think I have a much more nuanced, I raised venture capital, okay? I raised venture capital and I haven't raised it again because what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to put a business in a position where it doesn't need venture capital over and over again, that we can grow from like the organic expansion of our total addressable market. We can allow our product to bake a little bit. We can allow the maturity to take hold in our company. That's just a path, but I think oftentimes there's just a lot more mind share occupied by the other path.
14:04 Speaker 03 Well, yeah, yeah, we want to hear about your point of view. We want to hear about slow, responsible growth. So tell me a little bit more about slow, responsible growth.
14:12 Speaker 02 I would say like durable growth, right? Like a lot of VCs talk about this too, by the way, right? Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. What you want is you don't want like hiccups where you have lots of growth and then you haven't deployed your product properly, you haven't built your product properly. So as soon as you come up for a renewal, like half your customers churn. That story happens all the time because there's so much pressure on companies to grow. But if you're able to do like five deployments at the enterprise and like stay close to the customers and actually like a build for all the nuanced edge cases, that allows you to like really digest those deployments in a much better way. You're not trying to like eat more than you can chew, if you will. Like that type of approach is very different. So for us, what it means is just, okay, we're probably slower growth, but great healthy gross margins, great cash collection, large ACVs.
14:56 Speaker 02 Annual contract values. And then what that allows us to do is continues to fund the business in this responsible way. And listen, we're not trying to be everything to everybody. We know what we're trying to be. We're at the sort of like upper mid-market enterprise. Our customers are Fortune 500, Global 2000 companies. We have a top US airline. We have a top bank, top credit card company, top biotech and healthcare companies. We're focused on these like really complex industries where security assurance matters a lot. And you can't just like hyper-growth your way through these challenges. A lot of those are nuanced. So you have to understand what your market is. Founders don't necessarily understand, okay, like, how does the TAM mature? How did this market mature? How are the executives making decisions?
15:34 Speaker 03 So it sounds like one indication that you are doing this responsibly is if you can handle the edge cases. If you can't handle the edge cases, if you're tossing those off, especially if you're an enterprise, that might be a clue. That might be a clue that you're growing faster than your market really can handle. Let's get into a little bit more detail. So you've got all of these amazing customers. What are you doing for them? What does SecurityPal do? Who are its competitors? Why are you different?
16:00 Speaker 02 What SecurityPal fundamentally does, there is this security assurance due diligence that happens in every commercial transaction. So whether you're trying to sell a product or whether you're trying to buy a product, you have to demonstrate that you are secure or you have to understand the security posture of the vendors. And we speed that process up. A good example of this is like, you know, our customer Airtable, great company, great product. When they try to sell to enterprises, they have lots of like security questionnaires that end up in their inbox. We have another customer, Lang Chain, an AI company. They have tremendous success. They have a great product, but enterprises want to know about their security posture. And so they get asked a ton of information about what are their security controls? Whether they have attestations, whether they have done like a pen test, all these like different things. They want documented proof. They want responses to questionnaires.
16:44 Speaker 02 We speed that process up. We take the process that might take months and shrink it down to days or hours. And so that allows companies to close deals much faster through the security assurance due diligence, part of the workflow. And so our fundamental philosophy is if we can make it easier and faster to sell a product and if we can make it easier and faster to understand the risk profile of vendors, that commercial transactions will become faster. The more commercial transactions that actually accelerates innovation, the more innovation, humanity flourishes. Our mission really is, we want to be like a GDP accelerant through this like security assurance part of like deal making.
17:17 Speaker 03 Okay, so you can show your value proposition. You can be like, hey, look, we can take thirty days and these number of people down to these many. And so that allows you to charge reasonable fees.
17:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
17:29 Speaker 03 Or high fees even.
17:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
17:32 Speaker 03 That gives you profitability and allows you to pay your people pretty well.
17:36 Speaker 02 Right, exactly.
17:37 Speaker 03 You have another component too, in that you have big offices in other locations where I think labor might be more affordable, right?
17:46 Speaker 02 I think the cliche is like town is everywhere, opportunity is not sort of thing. And I generally subscribe to that role philosophy in some ways. We started our company in San Francisco, so HQ still, we're in Salesforce Tower in San Francisco. We have an office in New York City, right next to Grand Central Station. And then we did build a state of the art, security operations command center, a global capability center, if you will, with the help of the US Ambassador to Nepal, who inaugurated it in Kathmandu. And so actually, our office is exactly a hundred miles away in Kathmandu, from the top of Mount Everest.
18:13 Speaker 03 Oh, wow.
18:14 Speaker 02 And what we do is we partner with universities in the region that give Western accredited degrees. So these universities have affiliations with like UK universities, US universities, Australian, Japanese universities, and basically assign like give cybersecurity degrees, computer science degrees to these folks that are recognized by those countries. And then we recruit them, we develop them, and then we use their incredible skill sets to essentially like improve our product, right, across engineering, across security, across GRC, marketing, all these other things. And so like, yeah, really excited about what we're doing there. We're also champions of Silicon Peaks. That's what the hub is starting to be called. You know, we did coin the term, but it's has a life of its own. We open sourced it, right? So there's Silicon Valley, right? We started in Silicon Valley, now we're going to Silicon Peaks.
18:58 Speaker 02 So if you want to learn more about it, you can go to siliconpeaks.com and see. There's actually, I learned about three companies that are publicly traded in the New York Stock Exchange that actually have a team in Kathmandu.
19:07 Speaker 03 You're hoping to grow that ecosystem.
19:09 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly. It's a real passion of ours, actually. It's not just about security assurance and accelerating innovation. It's about ensuring that innovation benefits everybody globally. We see ourselves as sort of like part of that movement.
19:20 Speaker 03 But it also contributes to this idea that if you have product market fit and you charge right and you have your expenses in line, you don't necessarily need to keep going to the equity well for capital. But you've thought about this too. There are founders, or even in your case, maybe, that you do need an infusion of capital.
19:39 Speaker 02 You do.
19:40 Speaker 03 So what are your thoughts? If you're not going to sell more equity, if you're not going to get more VCs involved, what are you thinking you're going to do?
19:46 Speaker 02 If you're trying to build a company for decades, which is what we're trying to do in our case, if it's a drag race, then yeah. You need a ton of fuel. You need to step on the gas and go exit in three, four, or five years, whatever you want to do. I'm trying to build this for three, four, or five decades. I'm trying to build a company that hopefully outlasts me, right? I'm really inspired by the leaders at SAP and Oracle, right? These are boring companies, but they've been around for a long time, compounding, creating lots of enterprise value in the world. If you're trying to build for three, four, or five decades, it's not a drag race. You have to drive manual. There's the hills and corners and turns, right? You've got to navigate the business cycle. So that means is you've got to know when to accelerate and you've got to know when to switch gears. We accelerated through 2020, 2021, when times were really good. We were able to raise capital on good terms.
20:29 Speaker 02 And then when times turned, we were shrewd about our capital deployment strategy. We wanted to get to profitability. Maybe that strategy shifts now. Who knows? We don't need the capital, right? So like, I think that's also really nice. If somebody wants to have a conversation with us, we might entertain them. It allows us to like find the right types of partners that are mission aligned over many decades.
20:48 Speaker 03 But would you do alternate sources? Debt, for instance?
20:52 Speaker 02 Yes, yeah. I mean, if we're talking to firms, we're talking to our banks about lines of credit. Customer financing, getting customers to a little bit of discount, pay upfront. If you're able to collect a seven-figure agreement upfront, that's a lot of infusion of capital.
21:04 Speaker 03 Right.
21:04 Speaker 02 And so having those conversations with customers, that creativity, I sort of liken to building a company as like, there's this concept in intermittent fasting called autophagy, which is like if you don't eat for like a long period of time, all like the good stuff is kicked in in your body and like all your cancer cells and all these things like start getting eaten away and dying. It's called autophagy, right? I think a similar thing happens with companies, right? Like when you're a little bit starved for capital, companies also go through autophagy.
21:28 Speaker 03 Right.
21:29 Speaker 02 And it kicks into motion. And like all these like creative ways to actually try to grow. And I'm a big fan of that. You don't want to starve to the point of like, you know, unhealthiness. You certainly don't want to be like completely just gluttonous and like engorging yourself with capital. And there's like a real healthy balance there. You have to do what's right for your business at the end of the day. The type of business you're trying to build. I think most founders are not honest about that with themselves. Right? Am I doing this to get rich really quickly? And just like, you know, flip this and, and you know, whatever. Or am I like mission aligned? Am I trying to like create something meaningful in the world? It just depends what sort of like path. This is my path, right? This is the path that I've chosen to take.
22:08 Speaker 03 So another clue for founders might be, do they even have other options? Do they even have customers that may be able to pay upfront and to give you that source of capital? Or do they even have options for affordable debt or various debt instruments?
22:24 Speaker 02 Right. CAC financing is another thing, right? You can finance your customer acquisition costs.
22:28 Speaker 03 Yeah. Well, Brex.
22:30 Speaker 02 Yes.
22:30 Speaker 03 That's what Brex is sort of famously doing IPO bound. You know, it's selling bonds and it, yeah.
22:36 Speaker 02 Lots of companies are trying to do that now. Exactly. If you have a repeatable revenue motion, it becomes really easy for capital allocators to underwrite you and underwrite your growth. And you don't need to sell a lot of equity. You don't need to give them control of your company. You can build in a patient way for the long, long run, but yeah.
22:51 Speaker 03 And then finally, it also sounds like the thing that you didn't say was that if your VCs aren't okay with this, maybe you're in a partnership that isn't serving you the best, right?
23:02 Speaker 02 We've certainly been lucky to have investors around the table who have challenged us, but they've also given us good advice when times are tough. They didn't say burn all your capital. And David Sacks famously talked about, hey, you should cut burn. You should preserve. You should give yourself optionality. They open sourced the video that they've shared with all of the founders from Craft Ventures. I think that was like really good advice at the time. It certainly helped us, allowed us to survive and ride the storms. You have to have the right partners around the table. And if you don't, you have to have some tough conversations.
23:30 Speaker 03 Well, we're just about out of time. So where can our listeners connect with you or find your work or your thoughts about any of this online?
23:37 Speaker 02 I'm on LinkedIn, Pukar C. Hamal. You can connect with me. My email is [email protected] . So you can email me as well. And then you could also go to our website, right? You can check us out at securitypalhq.com, securitypal.com, securitypal.ai. We own all the domains, so people can find us in different ways.
23:59 Speaker 03 Well, thanks so much again for joining us on the show.
24:01 Speaker 02 Thank you, Julie.
24:02 Speaker 03 And to our listeners, you can find me on Twitter at Julie188 and Equity at EquityPod.
24:12 Speaker 01 Equity is produced by Teresa Locamso, with editing by Kel. We'd also like to thank TechCrunch's audience development team. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
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