Pod Insights Equity Podcast Vibe coding? Meet vibe security About this episode As AI evolves at breakneck speed, attackers are evolving right alongside it. Vibe coding, AI agents, and prompt-based attacks are opening enterprises up to new vulnerabilities daily. The pressure is on for cybersecurity tools to keep pace, and startups are seizing the moment. Few have grown as rapidly as Wiz, which Google is acquiring for $32 billion in its largest-ever purchase.
On today's episode of Equity, Wiz co-founder and chief technologist Ami Luttwak joined Rebecca Bellan to discuss how AI is fundamentally reshaping cybersecurity threats, from supply chain attacks that leverage vibe coding to hackers targeting the AI agents that developers rely on daily. His message is clear: while AI tools help developers build faster, they're also creating more vulnerable code by default, and attackers are already exploiting these weaknesses at scale.
Listen to the full episode to hear:
Why recent attacks affecting thousands of companies show AI security threats are here now
How vibe coding creates less secure applications and what developers can do about it
Why even a five-person AI startup needs a CISO from day one to win enterprise customers
How AI startups can access customer data without compromising security
Where Luttwak sees the biggest opportunities for innovation across the cybersecurity landscape
Equity will be back Friday, with our weekly news roundup. Talk then!
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Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 This episode of Equity is brought to you by Schneider Electric. Schneider Electric, your energy technology partner.
0:17 Speaker 01 Hello and welcome back to Equity Tech Crunch's flagship podcast about the business of startups. I'm Rebecca Bellan and this is the episode where we bring on industry experts to help us explore a trend in the tech world and dive deep. As AI evolves at breakneck speeds, attackers are evolving right alongside it. Vibe coding, AI agents and prompt based attacks are opening up enterprises to new vulnerabilities daily. The pressure is on for cybersecurity tools to keep pace and startups are seizing the moment. Few have surged farther though than Wiz, which Google is acquiring for $32 billion in its largest ever purchase. So today, we're joined by Wiz's co-founder and chief technologist, Ami Luttwak, to talk about what he's seeing at the front lines of AI and security. Ami, welcome to the show.
1:00 Speaker 02 Hi, very excited to be here.
1:02 Speaker 01 I'm so excited to have you here. I mean, it seems like as AI develops even further and everyone's vibe coding and it just seems like the cybersecurity risk is growing bigger by the second. Our regular listeners will definitely have heard us talk about various breaches over the past few years. Microsoft hugging Face, saying it detected unauthorized access to its AI model hosting platform. This January DeepSeek exposed internal databases containing chat histories and sensitive data. This is so huge, like your space is just evolving every day.
1:35 Speaker 02 It's very exciting in the space in general in technology at this time, and especially in cybersecurity. I think one of the key things to understand about cybersecurity unlike usual errors is that it's a mind game. It's an arms race. What I do in security is defend from other people. It's people that use technology. If there's a new technology wave, there is new opportunities for them to start using it and I have to respond. In cybersecurity, what is happening now is everyone is trying to figure out, okay, what attackers are going to do with this, what users are going to do with this because they can do mistakes, what attackers can do to exploit. Those mistakes or use the technology to do things better. And the cyber companies are trying to figure out, okay, okay, we have to move faster than ever. Because we have to respond in the same speed.
2:19 Speaker 02 So it is very exciting. And I think that we all feel that changes in the history. Because this revolution is faster than any revolution we've seen in the past. It means that we, as an industry, also cyber industry, we need to move faster as well. If we take a year to build the product, but everyone are already using AI. And attackers using AI, we have a gap here of a year or two. We have to move faster than ever before to protect our customers.
2:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, so if you're looking ahead, constantly playing chess. What are the three moves ahead that you're thinking attackers might be looking for? Like, how do you expect people to use technology today that opens up the doors for more vulnerabilities?
3:00 Speaker 02 So I must tell you, I'm usually skeptic. There is a lot of buzz and I always say, okay, let's wait, let's see what's happening in the market. AI, there's a lot of buzz, but people still don't use it, you know, it's gonna take time. And we'll talk about like in the enterprise, it's still not being used so much. So if we talk about attacks against enterprises, it's gonna take time. So that's what I thought.
3:22 Speaker 02 In the last few weeks, I learned that it's actually moving faster than I thought as well. People talk about vibe coding, okay, that's starting to build applications, that's clear. But what we're already seeing is that this is not a future of the chess game is gonna happen in a year or two. The chess game is happening now, like we are seeing attacks now in the last few weeks that impact thousands of enterprise customers already. That like if you look at the flow, AI was embedded at every step of the flow, every step. So we just saw a supply chain attack. Supply chain means that attacker got into a tool that everyone uses. The attack started by the user developer pushed code that was created using vibe coding.
4:04 Speaker 02 The attacker pushed the attack code also created using vibe coding. The attack itself, the prompt the attacker uses, you can actually see the attacker is now using prompts to attack. The prompt was trying to use AI tools that run on the machine of The developer. So you can actually see an attacker. It's not just their attacker vibe coding the attack. The attacker looks for AI tools that you have and actually telling them, send me all of your secrets. Delete the machine, delete the files.
4:32 Speaker 01 Wow. Well, what kind of AI tools, like just CRMs, like basic tools that companies are using or?
4:37 Speaker 02 So in those cases, it's basically AI agents. It can be coding agents, coding agents that run. So they actually look for those in the attack.
4:45 Speaker 01 So they're looking specifically for the coding agents that developers are using and attacking the agents themselves.
4:51 Speaker 02 Yes, that's the beauty.
4:52 Speaker 01 Wow.
4:52 Speaker 02 Whenever you have a new technology, it's both the developers ship code faster, might do mistakes. And we see that as one aspect that we can talk about. The other aspect is the attackers move fast and they actually ship their code and they actually do vibe coding to the data. The third aspect is that the tools you have right now, and again, I must say, I thought it's a theory a few weeks ago. It's not anymore. We just saw attacks against NX, against Q, against an AI agent that it just affected. A drift AI agent affected thousands of companies. So all of those are real attacks from just last few weeks that we see the entire chain relevant to AI. By the way, it didn't stop there because the AI agent was exploited by the attacker themselves.
5:35 Speaker 01 Wow.
5:35 Speaker 02 In some cases, the defenses that the developer had, the AI defenses stopped the attack. Even for us, by the way, as AI responders, we were able to build tools to detect all of the impacted customers in minutes using AI.
5:50 Speaker 01 Wow. Okay, wait, I want to get to your tools soon, but like what other patterns are you seeing? Like this is like an interesting new pattern, but there must be new ones developing every day. Is there anything else that you're seeing that's happening a lot aside from the hackers using vibe coding to attack? And also attacking the AI agents of other companies and enterprises?
6:08 Speaker 02 I think what's exciting is that in every area of technology, and that is also true in every area of potential attacks. We are starting to see attackers starting to leverage AI. So there's the obvious areas that I didn't even mention. Of course, phishing attacks, voice attacks, all of those areas, of course. I'm talking about more sophisticated attacks that are relevant to code, to building applications. We're also starting to see that in terms of automated attacks where they try start using tools to find more sophisticated attacks. I think we're starting to see this across the board, every area.
6:43 Speaker 01 How do you sleep at night? You must be just kept awake all night.
6:47 Speaker 02 You're right. By the way, my role is even, I think, the hardest role in every company. Like, security is a very, very, very challenging role because you can't go to anyone and say, "Hey, we have to stop using AI. You have to allow anyone to run faster." And think about it, it's almost an impossible challenge. You have to use AI in everywhere everyone wants to use it.
7:06 Speaker 01 Exactly. So like, how can startups and investors think about this trade-off between speed and deployment and secure coding practices? It seems like you can't do both.
7:14 Speaker 02 The trade-off here is a huge challenge. That's why, on one aspect, it's very exciting to be in the technology, in cybersecurity space right now. On the other hand, it's also very scary. Yeah? I mean, that's what we do, you know? We have to own and you have to take responsibility to enable the business to move fast. And I'm not saying it's easy, but again, we also have to remember, as long as we move as fast as the attackers, as long as the industry, and we have responsibility to move as fast, and I can equip every developer in the world to have this smart agent that knows all of the known attacks and can defend them automatically, there is a chance.
7:48 Speaker 01 So that's one of Wiz's tools. So when we, we met up a few weeks ago, months ago, I can't remember anymore, at your New York City offices, great view, by the way. You talked to me about this tool that you're offering companies that really helps them monitor in real time as attacks happen, see where they're coming from, and it automates it as well?
8:06 Speaker 02 I think, and what Wiz is doing is one aspect of cybersecurity, but I think this can apply to every aspect of cybersecurity. We focus in on what you build, on code, applications you build. And what we're trying to do now is say, until today, Wiz was focused on finding potential attacks. From now on, we have to move as fast as you. So if you vibe code, we need to help you vibe secure. So it means that we feel that our responsibility is to understand what you're trying to do, understand the architecture, understand your application, find the potential attacks, understand how to fix them, and push all of that into your code when you build it. So try to close the loop, entire loop, and bring all of the intelligence about every attack in the
8:46 Speaker 02 world to your fingertips and give it to you as you build it. If we can do that, then the future is bright. Because although attackers have more tools, you become the smartest developer ever. The most secure developer ever, just by using the security tool that has all the intelligence. So this concept can apply to other areas in cybersecurity, not just coding and application building as well as like think about phishing protection. If you had the most intelligent security person on every email that tells you, hey, wait, maybe it's a phishing email, right? So we can apply the same concepts. Every technology attacker can use, we can also use as long as we move fast enough. And the other aspect is culture. Everyone in the company needs to understand.
9:28 Speaker 02 If you vibe got something, you need to also listen to your security agent. If you're a redeemer, you should listen to your email security agent. As long as we have a good culture that respects security, I think we do have a bright future. So that's why it's exciting.
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10:19 Speaker 01 I don't want to say that cybersecurity is an afterthought, but I think that it's difficult for a lot of them to think about implementing these tools from the get-go. Is that culture changing? Are you noticing a shift?
10:29 Speaker 02 No, so I think there's actually two aspects here. One is that if everything moves so fast, it is becoming harder to think about security. Think about the implication of AI right now. Again, in the context of building applications, you build faster, much faster. Not only that, there's more people building applications. If I was in security team and I was outnumbered 100 to 1, now I'm going to be outnumbered 10 times worse. So many more people, they have good intentions. They might not be the most sophisticated developer. They don't know, they didn't learn years about development and security, they just vibe code. They have good intentions. The challenge is that everything moves faster. Everything moves faster if we don't build security into the foundations. Yeah, we have risks.
11:13 Speaker 02 We've been doing research about this. So if I vibe code stuff, do I get the most secure application out of the gate? The answer is no.
11:21 Speaker 01 And can you actually walk us through that a little bit? Like, why does vibe coding create more vulnerable code?
11:27 Speaker 02 It's about the industry as well. We have to get better. I'll give you an example. We just did a research where we created a lot of applications and we saw that many times when you vibe code them, the application, the way it does authentication, which is very important. Obviously, authentication is the way that you make sure it's not an attacker.
11:43 Speaker 01 Right, so like when you get a text message or like the follow-up code or your last pass or something.
11:48 Speaker 02 And it checks who you are. That's the most important piece of an application. How do I check who you are? Right? The implementation was insecure, incorrect, because it did the implementation in a way that is easy to bypass. Now, you can say, why did it happen? So it's just easier to build it like that. And I think the, right now, the industry state is that the vibe coding agent tries to do what you say. You didn't tell it, do it in the most secure way. You just said, they give me an application. So it just does that. Can we fix it? I believe we can. But this is exactly why it's frightening and exciting. If we don't think about it now, we're going to create a wave of insecure applications. If we think about it now and we work together across the industry with the users and everyone understands you have to think about security, then I believe there is a light at the end of this tunnel.
12:33 Speaker 01 So can Wiz's product look through a company's code, whatever it's been vibe-coded, and be like, ah, that's insecure, that's insecure, that's like, almost like a linter? Or are you kind of just noticing the attacks as they come in? Or what, what are you thinking?
12:46 Speaker 02 I'll explain to you a bit about how we see the security market. When we started, just five years ago, you actually had security tools that looked at different aspects. We started from looking at infrastructure. We didn't look at code. We looked into your application that is running. We tried to attack it from the outside. We didn't look into your code. What's exciting, and what we now call this horizontal security, is that in order to do security as a tool that helps you, I need to understand your entire application. So now in Wiz, we are starting to understand also your code, your APIs. We can start reading your documentation because we can use AI to understand your application. We are getting to a level that, yes, I can understand your code. I understand your application. I can help you fix stuff that you don't even know about because someone else built.
13:30 Speaker 02 Infrastructure. So for us, this is a very exciting step in the journey of which is we need to understand your code. We need also to understand your geoticket. We need to understand your docs. We need to understand why you're building it. So I can be very effective for you and I'd give you an advice to say, turn off this machine. Come on, this is a very important machine. Oh, I didn't know. But now that I understand what you're trying to build, I can now build the security tool that no one has ever had before. Security tool that understands you.
13:58 Speaker 01 Okay, so then companies that are trying to choose between building something in-house, something similar, and going the SaaS route, which might have a data exposure risk, how can they think about that?
14:08 Speaker 02 I think every company right now has a huge, huge question. First of all, there is a lot of buzz on AI. How do we use AI internally, what I call enterprise AI? What we see right now in our customer base is that in terms of enterprises, majority of them are still not using internally, most of their enterprise teams, AI in a real manner. I see around one percent of our customers, it's not a lot. There is a very exciting one percent of customers that actually changed the way they operate, changed internally the way they operate. All teams, including the security team, are actually using AI every day and they are building internal AI workflows. We just published a case study with Grammarly. Grammarly is an amazing, amazing security team.
14:52 Speaker 02 Amazing to see for us to learn from them, how they use the with MCP. MCP is the way that you interact with the AI interface, how they are building internal workflows to automate all of their tools, including with insider AI workflows. These are the kind of teams that already are starting to get value from AI and building it internally. This is the outlier, I must say. I do not see this yet in most enterprises. Ninety-nine percent of enterprises are still not using AI and enterprise AI in a way that is really giving them dramatic value. In terms of should I build it? Should I use SaaS? I'm coming from startups, so I wouldn't say I'm against startups, but I can tell you that there is a big problem now.
15:34 Speaker 02 Okay, you cannot send all of your company data and employee data and customer data to every company, every small SaaS company that has five employees, because they say, oh, give me all of your data and I will give you amazing AI insights. Just this week, we heard about huge breach coming from an AI agent.
15:54 Speaker 01 Which AI agent?
15:55 Speaker 02 There was the Drift AI agent.
15:57 Speaker 01 Hmm.
15:57 Speaker 02 Hundreds of huge enterprises were using that was breached. Now, the point is this, there will always be breaches. But right now, there is so many small startups that are doing exciting things with AI. Every company, every enterprise now has a huge question. Should I send all of my sales calls, all of my customer information to this very shiny new AI startup that has five employees? Or should I do it internally? I want to move fast, but there's also a risk. I don't have an answer, by the way. We also have the same challenge internally. We are a highly regulated company in Wiz, so I cannot send my data to outside. I have to do a lot of things internally, and this is a huge trade off.
16:36 Speaker 01 Well, what can those like five person startups that are trying to grow their businesses and work with enterprise clients? But there's obviously the risk, like what can they be doing?
16:44 Speaker 02 Okay, that's also a key question. I can tell you my history, how we approached it in Wiz, because in Wiz, we sold to Fortune 500 from day one. Our first customers.
16:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, like four years old, you started during the pandemic and already it's a thirty two billion dollar company.
16:58 Speaker 02 Yes, in the first year, in Wiz, the first year we sold in forty million dollars and it was already customer based. The customer base from day one was Fortune one hundred. So there is two things. One related to the way you operate and that the second relates to your architecture. The way you operate is that from day one, you think about security and compliance. You need to have a CISO as this chief security officer, but also you need to be like we were SOC two compliant before we head code. So thinking about our back permissions, enterprise security features, audit logs, logins, authentication. All of those features behave like a highly secure organization from day one, even if you have five employees. I can tell you a secret, having SOC two compliance for five employees is much easier than for five hundred employees. Maybe it can take you a day, that's it, because it's only five people.
17:44 Speaker 02 Most of the processes are very simple, so thinking about security functionality, compliance, reporting, features that are relevant to security from day one. That's something you can do.
17:53 Speaker 01 So if you have five employees, should one of them be a CISO?
17:56 Speaker 02 Yes, it doesn't have to be necessarily only a CISO. Yes, one of them should be a CISO and you should already think about if I want to sell startups, the way I see it is. It's always about the happy flow thinking, okay? That's why you always have to plan for scale. Cause if you are successful, you have to do ten X scale. So you cannot do something manual because it won't scale to ten X. So the happy flow doesn't make any sense if you didn't think about scaling from the beginning. That's your rules of enterprise. If you're focused on selling to enterprises, you have to prepare for them from day one. The way your documentation looks like. You cannot say, oh yes, we will build audit logs in two years. Okay, so you're not going to sell to enterprises in the next two years. So you should have a CISO from day one. Yes, you should be SOC two compliant from day one. You should have answers about how you access your production from day one.
18:41 Speaker 02 There is no reason that in five employee company, you don't have processes to access production. There should be production from day one and test, not one environment. Everything should be there from day one. And one of the secrets in security, by the way, is this. When you do something correctly from the beginning, it's going to be dramatically, dramatically easier in the future. Cause you won't have this time to say, okay, we have to stop for a year now to fix everything. You won't create what is I call the worst type of debt, which is security debt. It's just better to do it right from the beginning. So that's part one of my answer. Part two of my answer is this. What is the key problem now with AI startups? Data, you don't have value without data and you need a lot of data. But customer data is very sensitive. How do you solve that problem?
19:26 Speaker 02 So anyways, from day one, we were also thinking about this because also to do security, you need access to the data. And that goes to your architecture. If you're an AI startup now that wants to focus on enterprise from day one, you have to think about an architecture that allows the data of the customer to stay in the data hold of the customer in the customer environment. That is an architecture. And I see startups now that think about it from day one and I'm very impressed. I see the slides, they have a security slide, they have security documentation, they have compliance documentation. And when I ask them, I ask them, where is my data? They say, you control it.
20:01 Speaker 01 So when you say you control it, does that mean like on premise deployments, local cloud? Or how do you mean?
20:07 Speaker 02 It doesn't necessarily mean that. And that's the beauty and I am not coming with the answers. That's why you need CTOs.
20:14 Speaker 02 My point is that it's a trade off. I'm not saying on premise deployments because creating your entire service on premise does not scale either. So I want to be careful. I'm saying you have to find a way. That's part of the magic and that's part of your role as a startup to find a way, to find the architecture that works for you and for the customers. Maybe the database is owned by the customer. Maybe some of the infrastructure you provision on their side, there is a lot of different options and solutions. My point is this, you need to have a solution. You need to think about it. You have to design for it from the beginning.
20:45 Speaker 01 If you're an investor, for example, and you want to invest in an AI company, you're doing your due diligence. Are there any other red flags that you might have or that you might see from AI companies? That tells you they're not really thinking about security from day one?
20:57 Speaker 02 The basic things that we talked about are very easy to see, right? Like, do you have a CISO? Do you have a certification? But then you can also get to the next level of questions, which is like the actual questions we ask in security. Like, okay, how do you access production? How do you with your application? Do you have a security ICD? If the answer is we didn't think about it yet, again, if they didn't develop anything, that's fine. But my view is this, if it's a security oriented team, they would have answered from this from the day they started building something. So do you have a single sign on? If you don't have the basics, there shouldn't be a one line of code, one line of code before you have a domain, single sign on, you are an email, you have a code repository. Why? Because think about it, it's not just security, it's also legal. Okay, you can't start creating stuff in your computer.
21:40 Speaker 02 It has to be in your code repository, has to be protected behind the single sign on. You can't have just someone started to write stuff. Maybe someone will come with not an official employee will add code. Now you have legal issues, right? From a lot of reasons, you have to function like a company from day one.
21:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I think it's so easy to just forget that as you get excited building things, especially for smaller companies and just developers that are just trying to iterate, move fast and everything. It's just so easy to kind of forget that.
22:06 Speaker 02 Yes, but today it's so easy. You know, you can create a domain in five minutes. You can get a single sign on, connect everything from there. Just make sure you operate, you don't have to buy a company owned device. You can use your own device, but just think about it, like the code should be in the code repository. Emails already should not be your private emails. Again, it's basic. Stuff is I'm not even talking about this is not just security. It's also legal. It's just a way to operate as a company. It's a company email. Use your company email. It's a code that owns relevant to the company should be in the company code repository. You're building a document now. Should be in the company document management system. These are basic stuff. It's basic.
22:40 Speaker 01 Well, I think when the last time we spoke that you said that most of the breaches are still just basic mistakes anyway.
22:46 Speaker 02 Yes.
22:47 Speaker 01 That people just kind of forget about. I wanted to quickly ask you about opportunities for startups in the cybersecurity space. I mean, one thing that came to mind as you spoke is the infrastructure layer. Like if people can't do on premises deployment because that's messy and a lot of work. Perhaps the infrastructure architectural layer, there's room for other startups to come in and offer services. Or where do you think there are gaps that can be filled?
23:07 Speaker 02 I actually think the game is open. The field I explained, if every area in security now has new attacks, new attacks. Then it means that we have to rethink every part of security. If we were doing a phishing protection email security in one way, now we need to do it in a new way. Even endpoint protection endpoints, we were looking for malware in one way. Now a attacker can build a new malware every day using vibe coding. Then you have to rethink how you do endpoint protection. Cloud security and engineering, of course, as we said, if you do vibe coding, we have to think of vibe security. Every area of cybersecurity is now open. The field is open. So I think it's actually very exciting. It's open for anyone. If you move faster than the industry and the industry has to move faster than ever before.
23:50 Speaker 02 Now it's not easy. As we said, you're a startup, you want to access customer data. It's not going to be easy, but the potential to dramatically change every market in security is now here. Usually it used to be there's a new technology and you can innovate in that area. Mobile, mobile security. Now it's different. AI is across the field. I don't see a field called AI security. I think there is the field that is basically entire cybersecurity. In every area, there is room now for innovation. And the other perspective is this, security teams right now don't know how to use AI yet. So there's also huge room for innovation around workflow and automation and basically giving them tools to do vibe security is I am a security person. How do I use AI? I don't know.
24:35 Speaker 02 There is no answer. There's no school for that. No one explains that. And also, there's not a lot of tools for that. So that is also a huge room for innovation. Again, very exciting for me as well, which is everyone talk about coding agents. What about security agents? How they're going to look like? What's going to be the IDE? Like the place that you do security? How does it look like? No one knows. So huge, huge space for innovation now.
24:56 Speaker 01 Wow. Okay. So the field is open, people.
24:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
24:59 Speaker 01 And that's a good place to end. We're just about out of time. Where can our listeners connect with you online?
25:04 Speaker 02 First of all, at Wiz, we try to continuously provide most of our, I would say, both research, instant response, thoughts, ideas in our blog and social. Just as an example, we just had a huge incident that we were trying to help customers on supply chain. We both had live updates, but also gave customers actual explanations of how we responded. So they can also learn how to respond themselves. Another very exciting area.
25:30 Speaker 01 So this is on the Wiz blog?
25:31 Speaker 02 Yes. But if you want to learn security, we're starting to invest a lot now in challenges that teach you to become a hacker.
25:37 Speaker 01 Oh.
25:37 Speaker 02 So we have very, very exciting areas. We call it capture the flag challenges. Really cool. We're trying to do them now monthly. Really cool challenges. If you just want to practice cybersecurity and learn about it.
25:48 Speaker 01 And who is this good for? Developers generally or security people?
25:51 Speaker 02 Developers.
25:52 Speaker 01 Yep.
25:52 Speaker 02 Security people, AI enthusiasts, and just people that like games, you know? Security is just games.
25:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
25:58 Speaker 02 I recommend that as well.
25:59 Speaker 01 Cool. That sounds really great. Maybe I'll try it out myself. I'll probably fail miserably. But well, so check out Wiz's your social media, your blog, and to follow any of these updates. Are you personally on any social media that you engage with or not really?
26:14 Speaker 02 Yeah. Yeah. Twitter, LinkedIn.
26:16 Speaker 01 Yep. Okay. The usuals. You can find him there. To our listeners, you can find me on X and Blue Sky. Also, you can find Equity at EquityPod on X and Blue Sky. Talk to you next time.
26:28 Speaker 01 Equity is produced by Teresa Locum-Solo with editing by Kel. We'd also like to thank TechCrunch's audience development team. Thank you so much for listening and we'll talk to you next time.
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