Nubank's CEO explains what the US could learn from LatAm fintech

This is our Wednesday show, where we niche down to a single person, think about their work and unpack the rest. Mary Ann is taking over today's interview with David Vélez, the co-founder and CEO of Nubank, the $35 billion Sao-Paulo, Brazil-based digital bank that offers credit cards, checking accounts and life insurance to consumers. Equity listeners know that digital banking has been on our minds for some time now, so naturally we were excited to have David on the show. Here's what we got into: How Nubank has achieved -- and maintained profitability -- in this challenging macroeconomic environment How not only the LatAm fintech market differs from that of the U. S., but how founders in the region operate their businesses differently from their U. S. counterparts The state of digital banks in general and how David sees banking evolving in the next few years from the lens of both a founder and former investor (he once led Sequoia Capital's Latin American investments). Mary Ann and Alex are back on Friday with more Equity, but as always, you can keep up with us on Twitter @EquityPod. For episode transcripts and more, head to Equity’s Simplecast website. Equity drops at 7:00 a.m. PT every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, so subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Overcast, Spotify and all the casts. TechCrunch also has a great show on crypto, a show that interviews founders, one that details how our stories come together and more! Credits: Equity is produced by Theresa Loconsolo with editing by Kell. Bryce Durbin is our Illustrator. We'd also like to thank the audience development team and Henry Pickavet, who manages TechCrunch audio products. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:11Speaker 00

  Hello and welcome back to Equity, a podcast about the business of startups, where we unpack the numbers and nuance behind the headlines. I'm Maryann Azevedo. This is our Wednesday show, where we niche down to a single person, think about their work, and unpack the rest. Today, we're talking to David Velez, the co-founder and CEO of Nubank, a Sao Paulo, Brazil-based digital bank that offers credit cards, checking accounts, and life insurance to consumers. It has a market cap of $35 billion currently. I'm excited to talk with you, David. Welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  Thank you, Maryann, for the invitation. It's a pleasure to be here.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  It's great to have you on the show. Nubank has been a topic of discussion lately on our Equity podcast, as we've all been impressed with your ability to achieve and maintain profitability in this challenging macro environment. So today, we're going to talk about a variety of things. We'll talk about some of Nubank's recent milestones, how the LatAm fintech market differs from that of the US, the state of digital banks in general, and how you see banking evolving in the next few years, from the lens of both a founder and previous investor. So I know you co-founded Nubank in 2013 and helped take the company public in 2021. But what many people may not realize is that prior to founding Nubank, you were a partner at Sequoia Capital, leading that firm's LatAm investments.

• 1:28Speaker 00

  So I believe that might give you a unique lens as a founder.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. I always wanted to be an entrepreneur, come from an entrepreneurial family, but it took me a while to figure out how to get there. And partly of the road to get there was becoming an investor, first in growth equity, then in venture capital. Being from Colombia and having lived in Brazil, I always wanted to go back to Latin America and do this in the region. And while I was with Sequoia in 2012, after spending maybe two years looking at

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Earlier stage investing in the region, we came a bit to a disappointing conclusion, which was at that time, there weren't that many startups to really back in the region. And I decided that that was my time to really go on my own and start something. So that's when I moved from the investing side to the entrepreneur side. And yeah, and it's been great. It's been a great journey.

• 2:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, obviously, that that turned out well for you. For example, just in May, New Bank reported your most recent financial results, and you reported a record profit of, say, 141.8 million and quarterly revenue of 1.6 billion, which I believe was a nearly 90% increase over the same period as last year. That's quite impressive. So what we want to know is, how? How did you manage to do this in such a tough macroeconomic environment?

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. So I would say it's a continuation of the roadmap and the business that we've been building for almost, for a decade, really. We began with the view that Brazil, Mexico, Colombia, the countries that we operate, and really, this is a general view for most emerging markets, there was an opportunity to bring more competition to the existing banking oligopoly. What you've seen after several decades of banks in emerging markets was that there was a lot of M and A, banks grew through a lot of acquisitions, and that led to a significant concentration of these banking markets, where you saw now 80 to 90% of the entire market of savings, investment, credit, insurance being concentrated in the hands of five to six packs.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  And every time you see an oligopoly, you see lack of access on one end, so a lot of people being left out, and also the people that are being left in paying high prices and support customer experience. So our hypothesis 10 years ago was, we will build a full digital bank, and they use the digital channels to compete with these banking oligopoly, take advantage of the efficiency of the business model, not having to have branches, to pass that efficiency to the end customer via no fees, so effectively lower pricing in the banking products that we serve, and much better consumer experience. And that consumer experience is a function of a culture that is obsessed about the customer, but also The fully digitally nature of this experience. So we began with that roadmap.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  It's been a lot of focused execution for a decade. Our first product, which was credit card, is a hard product to scale because in credit, you cannot just grow infinitely. You cannot move fast and break things. Credit, you're taking a lot of risk as you grow with credit. So it requires a lot of patience, a lot of discipline building. But seventy percent of all the profits in financial services in Latin America come from credit. So you cannot build a large financial services business if you don't crack credit. So what you see really over the past quarter and 2022 is sort of the effort or finally the fruits of a lot of patient growth through a decade and through a lot of economic cycles.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  It seems like in 2022, when you saw a high inflation in the U.S. and high interest rates, this was a bit of a shock to both startups as well as traditional businesses.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  Right.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  In Brazil, this was nothing. This is the his- we see this cycle every two years.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  You're used to it.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  We're completely used to it. We've seen high interest rates. We've seen high inflation, low interest rate. So we've had to grow significantly through ups and downs. We saw the worst recession in a hundred years in Brazil in 2017. We had to go through that. We saw presidential impeachments. We saw corruption scandals. So the macro picture we've seen as we've grown has been as bad as you can possibly wish for any startup that has grown.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  So now we were used to it. We know how to operate in these environments. And for us, 2022 was one more cycle that we know how to deal with. And the business was already at a scale where we were continued to growing significantly our credit business. We were already growing significantly on the cross-sell. And we continue to add a lot of new customers. On the past twelve months only, we brought 20 million new customers, almost all of them to World of Bows, more than all the other incumbent banks combined, getting to a very significant scale in Brazil and all the other markets.

• 6:05Speaker 00

  Wow, I think I read that New Bank is now the fifth largest financial institution in Brazil currently. Is that correct?

• 6:12Speaker 01

  That's correct, yeah.

• 6:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that about forty-six percent of the Brazilian adult population has a New Bank account?

• 6:19Speaker 01

  That's right. And I think that's an important metric to just highlight because that just talks to the level of impact and scale and reach that we've, what that we've reaching our core market in Brazil. I don't think JP Morgan could say that about the US. I don't think JP Morgan has forty-six percent of the American adult population. So that just tells you a bit about how relevant we've become as an institution in the market that we operate. And beyond that, we don't necessarily just want to be a simple wallet where people leave their cash. We are now becoming the primary bank account of these customers, which is our goal. We are the primary banking relationship for about sixty percent of our customers. We are the primary bank account.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  And so that is a much more solid footing to be in, a much more solid strategic position than just being a wallet where you save some cash, where you use just to pay for a couple of bills.

• 7:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's notable because in Brazil, there was definitely, you know, this sore need for innovation, that the incumbents were, you know, charging insane interest rates and fees. So there was an appetite, that people were hungry for an offering that didn't, for lack of a better phrase, rip them off. So it feels like that they embraced what Nubank had to offer. But I'm curious, did it take a little while for that adoption to happen? I mean, I, I know that there were advances in, you know, adoption of, for smartphone usage, for example. So, I mean, did you see that kind of surge over the last few years with the pandemic?

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah. So our timing was great when we launched in 2014, because that was also around the timing where smartphone penetration in Brazil was really starting to skyrocket. And you, I, I remember a headline from one of the big media companies calling Brazil the social media capital of the universe. And that was, that's true. Brazilians are extremely tech savvy. They love their smartphone. They are consistently in the top five of any social media or any digital product. And so we were able to match that demand for social products with a complete digital offering in a moment where all the other banking options were completely analog, were very offline.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  You needed, I personally had to wait five months to open a bank account and get a credit card when I moved to Brazil for the first time. And that was the experience that a lot of people had to deal with when we launched a credit card that you could get in two minutes. So it was a product that was clearly ten X better than when everybody was starting. And given the time was correct, our adoption was very fast. Since the moment we launched, we saw significant increase for demand. We saw a demand that was virally nature. There's nothing fundamentally viral about a credit card, if you think about it. You don't build a network, it doesn't necessarily have network effects. But people were recommending their friends and family. People were going to Facebook, to Instagram, saying, this is the best product I've ever used. I get it.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  And so we've really grown to over almost 80 million customers with effectively no marketing spend. It's been really all word of mouth, very viral in nature. But then to your question, what really accelerated even more that growth trajectory was the launch of what is called PICS in Brazil, which is the digital payments ecosystem. The government in Brazil, the central bank instituted a new infrastructure of payments in about 2017 that enabled everybody to pay itself. And we had as a strategic goal become the leading payments app in the country, the equivalent of Venmo or Cash App in Brazil. And so we took that, we executed on the goal very well. And today we are the most downloaded app to pay friends and increasingly businesses.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  And that payment capability brings a lot of engagement, brings a lot of activity. And through COVID, we saw an even bigger spike as people really digitalized completely their purchases of their day to day goods.

• 10:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've been fascinated to watch the growth of the PICS payment system in Brazil. And a lot of people are looking at that, looking at the US and saying, wow. I mean, you know, typically Latin American countries might be behind when it comes to financial services, technology. But in this case, it really feels like Brazil is ahead. PICS is widely adopted. My husband's Brazilian. I hear that people use it everywhere to pay vendors on corners for things. It's more commonly used than credit cards even. So I think that it's really a very interesting thing that has taken place in Brazil. So I'm curious then, what would you say are the biggest differences between the US and Latin American markets? And actually, before we jump into that, I would like to also point out, you operate

• 10:46Speaker 00

  in Mexico and Colombia as well.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 10:48Speaker 00

  So I'm also curious, are you planning to expand outside of those three countries into other parts of Latin America?

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. So the first part of your question, what has happened effectively is a leapfrog in payments infrastructure from a situation where 10 years ago, you had a developed financial services market in the US with a large penetration of debit and credit card as the main digital payment. And then when you saw emerging markets, you know, highlight maybe China, India and Brazil, which have followed a very similar trajectory. You saw a very cash-heavy economies that didn't have a lot of debit or credit card penetration and it was mostly cash. Over the past 10 years, these three countries, China, India and Brazil, China being led by big techs in China, India and Brazil being led by government-funded systems, have leapfrogged the US in digitalization using these new technologies of peer-to-peer payments, peer-to-merchant payments,

• 11:39Speaker 01

  to a point now where they are ahead of the US in digitalization. You'll go to Brazil and use PICS or you go to India and use UPI and it feels like the future. You're not really using cards anymore. You don't need cash for absolutely anything. You are paying tips to the person in the street with a QR code payment. So even to the level of micro-payments, you're using your app.

• 12:01Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that has really reduced the cost of banking services for the entire economy, but it has also brought into the formal economy hundreds of millions of people that were completely outside the system and were saving their cash under their mattress. In Brazil specifically, we brought over 20 million people that were completely unbanked into the banking economy that today are using PICS payments for all their daily needs. So that has today, that has given the opportunity to these countries to see, you know, to be ahead of the US in a lot of the payment infrastructure. If you show a cheque, a paper cheque, anywhere in Brazil, people will laugh at you. Then the new generation will have no idea what that is, what a cheque means. And you still see this very frequently in the US.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  So then to your question of Mexico and Colombia, we've decided to follow a strategy of wanting to or betting to be, as I said, the primary bank account of our customers. To be the primary bank of our customers and not just simply a wallet, we have to fully embrace the banking space. We cannot execute the strategy by trying to be a bank. Without being a bank, we need banking licenses, we need to be very local, we need integrations, we need to be fully regulated by the local central bank. That has been part of always the journey. It's annoying to be a regulator, but we fully embraced this since the very beginning because that has been the strategy of our business. That also means that it's harder to internationalize. This is not a business that you can take to 20 countries in two years because of all

• 13:28Speaker 01

  the licenses that you need.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a process, right?

• 13:32Speaker 01

  It's a process. So because of that, we've only done three countries in 10 years. But every time we go from Brazil to Mexico to Colombia, we seek to be the leading financial institution in those markets, have the largest number of customers and eventually very profitable and solid businesses with their own local deposits. And so because of that, we're going at a relatively slow pace in internationalization. We're very comfortable with that decision. That means that for now, I think we're fine with these two countries, but I can tell you in the next five to 10 years, we'll be in more countries. We still need to define which ones are going to be those. But there's a lot of the technology that we're building that can certainly help us take a lot of this banking experience to other economies that are also see lack of access and support experiences.

• 14:15Speaker 00

  I assume Brazil is still your largest market, though?

• 14:18Speaker 01

  That's right. Brazil today still accounts for about 75 million out of the 80 million customers that we have are in Brazil. And we launched Mexico about three and a half years ago and launched Colombia about two years ago.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  Okay. Besides the PICS payment system, I'd like to talk more about other ways Brazil may have been ahead of the US payments-wise, but first, we're going to take a quick break. I think it's really interesting what you mentioned about PICS and how it feels like Brazil, India, and China are actually ahead of the US in this regard when it comes to payment infrastructure. One thing, like for example, also like buy now, pay later, which kind of exploded in the past few years in the US. In Brazil, paying in installments has been around forever, something that was very commonplace. So it's just really interesting to me, like the differences between the markets, but in some ways, what's old is new again, right? When it comes to certain types of things.

• 15:15Speaker 00

  One thing that I would like to talk about is Latin Americans have unique pain points that I feel like it's important to discuss. Can you talk a little bit about what those are and why you think New Bank is uniquely positioned to address those?

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Sure, so I would say I would divide maybe the marketing to the first one is the banked population and then the unbanked population. For the banked population, the pain historically has been prices are too high, experience is crappy. So you pay very high fees, very high interest rates. Generally, in countries in Latin America, you'll pay way higher interest rates than anything you pay in the US. I mean, we're talking about-

• 15:53Speaker 00

  Like hundreds of hundreds.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Hundreds of percent, right? Exactly, some of the products. And you pay a lot of different fees. You pay fee for a credit card, you pay fee because you're late, you pay fee for absolutely everything. You see a lot of this fee dynamics in the US as well. So that's not that different even for the banked population. But generally, on the banked segment is prices are too high and experience historically was analog, was offline since there was no competition in banking, different than the US where you have 4,000 banks. In Brazil, you almost had to deal with it. I remember talking to a lot of my friends at the early days, 2013, asking them, how is it possible that people are putting up with this experience, waiting five months to open a bank account and having to go to a branch 10 times?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  And the answer for people saying, well, where else are you going to go? The bank next door is exactly the same and the other one is exactly the same. So you're trapped. So that was a big pain point, which as we launched a product that was fully digital and consumer obsessed with a culture of consumer obsession, we were able to address that. Then you have the unbanked population where the consumer pain is much larger. When you want access to a product and you cannot have it, then the consumer pain is much more acute. And in Latin America, about 250 million people are completely unbanked. Banks don't want to serve you or they cannot serve you even if they want to. Because when you have a branch infrastructure, when you have to serve consumers via branches, it becomes uneconomical to open an account for you if you're going to deposit $200 or

• 17:20Speaker 01

  $300 or if you're going to, if you need a $50 loan. The model doesn't work. So you needed to create a fully digital product with a marginal cost to serve close to zero, as we've done, to be able to serve people that will initially deposit $500 or $1,000. Or sometimes people that have no credit history. And what I think for them is to start with a very low line. So we have customers with a line that begins at $10 for the first 30 days. And after the first 30 days, it goes to $100. And then it goes to $500 and they start building their credit history that way and get access to credit. So the pain of the Latin population needed a complete rethink of the business model, which is what we've done. And because of that, we're now able to address that large percentage of the population,

• 18:03Speaker 01

  providing them good products that meet their specific needs.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  I think that's one of the things that has most drawn me to fintech is the inclusion aspect of being able to bring more people into the financial system that we're not otherwise able to participate. So, you know, definitely applaud those efforts. I think also another thing when we talk about the difference between US and LatAm, though, it goes beyond just the actual pain points of the consumers. We have to also talk about founder mentality because over the past few years, I've been covering startups raising money in LatAm. There's been a surge of venture dollars going into the region because the, obviously, as we've talked about, there's been a lot of need, there's a lot of demand, right, for innovation in this space. But I feel like when I talk to founders in Latin America, there's a different mindset. There's a different hunger.

• 18:51Speaker 00

  There's a different way of operating. And I feel like that's because it's so much harder to raise capital in the region that you have to really be careful about managing your cash flow more efficiently because it's not of more capital is around the corner. And you kind of have to build that resilience into your business model. And you alluded to that earlier when you mentioned, oh, okay, we're used to market fluctuations in Latin America and Brazil in particular. We've seen a ton of volatility. So that's something that it wasn't a catastrophe to your business last year. So can you speak to that a little bit?

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. So we started in 2013 where there was effectively no venture capital in Brazil, either local or foreigner. That meant that we had to be extremely frugal since the very beginning. Capital was a huge constraint. And we got very lucky. We were the first investment of Sequoia in Brazil, the first investment of Founders Fund, the first investment of DST, the first investment of Tencent, the very fintech investment of Berkshire Hathaway. So we, we had to kind of open the space for a lot of our fintechs by bringing foreign capital into Latin America. And that just kind of forced, that amount of adversity just forced a lot of discipline, a lot of decisions that we made with capital.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  We had since the very beginning a very lot of clarity around the unit economics of the business. Of course, we were not profitable the first few years, but we had to have very, very good understanding of where the business model, how the business model was going to be built, what were the different levels of the business model, what was the right rate of growth, since we were growing a capital-intensive product that had credit risk. We could not just simply say grow, grow, grow, grow, grow as much as you can. Every additional customer that we brought in required capital deployment and had some type of funding requirement and had credit risk. So this required a multi-dimensional understanding of growth. We're always trying to find the right answer between the capital that we had

• 20:45Speaker 01

  and how much, how much space we wanted to cover in this market. So I think that just created also kind of a lot of collaboration within the team. It forces us to bring a lot of different perspectives on the table. It was always a combination of newbies or foreigners into banking, people that didn't know anything about banking but had a lot of understanding of technology, but also people that had a lot of banking background in trying to mix those two perspectives to always arrive at the right answer for us. And then all these economic shocks that I mentioned just came almost every 12 months. It was, I remember trying to raise capital in 2015 in the middle of the La Vagia corruption scandal in Silicon Valley. And people were saying, this is the last place in the world where I would want to invest my money. I got this from, from several investors.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  And then worst recession in 100 years in 2017 and inflation in the 20s. And so it's like, it feels sometimes like that Mario Bros., there is a Mario Bros. meme where wherever you look, there was a ball of fire going after you. So I think this, this is kind of. Builds a lot of resilience and discipline in the culture. Always asking why and always trying to answer the questions like, what is the right type of growth? And looking at this from different angles. And that serves us well consistently as as new obstacles come into play. And and things don't work out the way we think they're going to work out. Just makes us kind of continue going forward and find an answer every time that we that we hit a wall. So that's been part of our DNA since the beginning.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  I think some would argue that this current shift over the past year and a half or so here, like in the US, when it comes to funding, where it's kind of dried up to some degree. And founders have had to be like, oh, wow, OK, I really need to be careful with my money. Is a mindset that has existed, you know, pretty much always in LatAm, just

• 22:30Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 22:31Speaker 00

  because of, say, almost necessity, really. One thing that I neglected to mention, we were just talking about the different markets. And I think it's impressive, and I would like to touch upon it. You talk about serving unbanked population, people who have never had credit. There's a lot of risk involved in that. So you mentioned starting out with very low credit lines. Because I was wondering, like, do you see a lot of default? I mean, how do you underwrite, you know, a population that has never had credit before? And do it responsibly and in such a way that they are able to build their credit and not default?

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so this has been a really interesting insight because we've reached a bit of a counterintuitive conclusion in lending to lower income population. And the main insight is that lower income people do not have higher risk than higher income people. If you give them the right credit line. So if you really start lowering on people with low credit limits and and allow them to build a credit history, that tends to be a really good model. If you give them a way higher limit that they can afford, you as an institution end up throwing them into debt. And so that is what what, you know, we generally talk about second order risk. It's like your decision for a product might influence the probability of default of a customer.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  A lot of financial institutions don't even think about that second order risk because in a way they're just trying to optimize for the next quarter or the next month. And so you throw somebody in debt, you're Making a lot of money from interest financing, but then you're going to lose the customer forever because that customer is going to go into debt. So the reason why we've been able to successfully underwrite high income customers, mid income customers and low income customers is that the digital nature of our platform and the low cost to serve enables us to price risk appropriately on one end. So put the right interest rate to account for risk, but also to set the right credit limit, given the income on this population and then be very patient. Be willing to have a customer that is lower income with a hundred dollar credit limit and be willing to hear from the customer.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Give me a higher line, give me a higher line, give me a higher line. And now deciding that we want to wait six months or months to make sure that we're doing the right thing for that customer ultimately. And because of that, we've just been able to grow significantly to be one of the largest credit card issuers in the country today. With a default rate with losses that are thirty to fifty percent lower than the incumbents. In the lower income population, our credit losses are fifty percent less than the big banks. That in theory have decades of credit history that we don't have. So that has been a pretty amazing success that we've been proud of, being willing to show lower losses, even in environments like the one we're living in today, where the overall credit risk of the economy has increased.

• 25:14Speaker 00

  I love that strategy and I wish more institutions adopted it. So last question for you, David. What do you see ahead in digital banking? What's next?

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so listen, I think the financial opportunity is still in the early days. Similarly, as any other technology industries like retail or transportation or music. Technology companies will be the largest providers of financial services in the world in the next ten to twenty years. I think the thesis hasn't really changed in a decade. We still think though that this opportunity is bigger in emerging markets than in developed economies. Because as I said earlier, it is easier to have a product that is ten X better in emerging markets than in developed economies, given the lack of access and competition. So we already have reached a level of scale that allows us to be relevant in the markets that we operate. But we still have a lot of work ahead in terms of growing.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  The market share of each individual business line that we have. We have 3% market share in personal loans. We have 1% market share in insurance, 1% in investments, 1% in crypto, about 2% in small businesses lending. So the next five years for us is going to be all about focusing in these three geographies and being able to continue growing the customer base, but mainly grow the market share we have in every single one of these verticals. And that would put us at a very strong position in the markets that we operate a couple of years from now.

• 26:36Speaker 00

  Well, David, this has been so interesting. I'm very glad we finally had a chance to connect. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing all of your perspectives on digital banking overall and details of how Nubank has managed this impressive growth, especially in recent years. So thanks again.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Thank you, Mary Ann. It has been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  If you want to hear more from David and Nubank, you can find them on Twitter at Nubank, and that's N-U-B-A-N-K. And for everyone listening, let us know who we should talk to next. Fill out our listener survey at bit.ly/EquityPodSurvey. That's capital E, capital P, and capital S. And Alex and I will be back on Friday to close out the week, so we'll talk to you then. Bye.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Equity is hosted by myself, editor in chief of TechCrunch Plus, Alex Wilhelm, and TechCrunch senior reporter, Mary Ann Azevedo. We are produced by Teresa Locan Solo with editing by Kel. Bryce Durbin is our illustrator. And a big thank you to the audience development team and Henry Pickavet, who manages TechCrunch Audio Products. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.