Pod Insights Equity Podcast If the music stops, what startup gets a chair? Renegade Partners' co-founders are finding out About this episode Renegade Partners co-founders Renata Quintini and Roseanne Wincek have seen it all in their careers — notably over the past four years when they launched their first fund as the COVID pandemic took hold and navigated the economic roller coaster that followed.
Now, with a second $128 million fund — and a plan to write checks of up to $10 million into 20 startups — Quintini and Wincek join TechCrunch editor Kirsten Korosec on Equity to discuss those early days of their first fund, what they look for in a startup and what’s driving the shift away from megafunds.
Equity is TechCrunch’s flagship podcast, produced by Theresa Loconsolo, and posts every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Overcast, Spotify and all the casts.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:11 Kirsten Korosec? Hello and welcome back to Equity TechCrunch's flagship podcast about the business of startups. I'm Kirsten Korosec and this is our Wednesday episode where we hone in on a trend in the startup world and dive deep. Today, we are talking to Renegade Partners co-founders and managing directors Renata Quintini and Roseanne Wincek. Renata and Roseanne, welcome to the show.
0:34 Speaker 01 Thanks for having us, Kirsten. Great to be here.
0:36 Kirsten Korosec? Yes, thank you, thank you. I was reflecting on your history a little bit when I was preparing for this and Renegade Partners, I think was, let's say, outed in the press around September 2019 and then the fund closed in March 2020. And wow, what a bit of a crazy time to be trying to close a fund. What was that like?
1:00 Speaker 01 I mean, I even, I get this visceral reaction in my body just even thinking about that time. We had obviously been fundraising and working towards this close for a while, but it was that last week in March where things kind of started to get weird and funny and we're like, should we be flying? What's going on? I remember, I live in San Francisco, but I lived in a place where I could see the bay and I was on the phone with an LP and there was that like, that Princess Cruise that was getting towed in. Remember there was that COVID boat that wasn't allowed to dock and it was getting towed in with a Coast Guard escort and all these sirens. And I just remember texting Renata like a picture while I'm on the phone with an LP just being like, right, like docks are coming in, right? Like you're gonna, you're gonna close, all the legal's good. And just being like, oh
1:43 Speaker 01 my God, like what is happening? And I always feel like I'd rather be lucky than good because we closed the fund on that Friday, the 13th and shelter in place happened a day or two later. And I think if the close were on Monday, it probably wouldn't have happened.
1:56 Kirsten Korosec? Right. Renata, I'm wondering, I mean, not only was the pandemic happening, as we all know, but it was pretty wild economic time for fundraising. That summer was crazy. So I'm wondering, was this the most volatile period for VCs that you've ever experienced?
2:16 Speaker 02 I think yes, because you had the economic overlay and you also had your personal safety. Like, what's gonna happen to the world? What's gonna happen to my health, to my family? So I think it was uncertainty across the board. And it was really that sort of standstill of what is the new normal going to be and when? So starting a fund in that tier, like we joke that we had to build a house in quicksand for a bit. But then the tech market started to rally towards the back end, things normalized, and the whole working remotely, working from home, and then the bullishness came, and the pendulum swung the other way. Then 2021 is
2:57 Speaker 02 like a whole different story. But yes, I think it was uncertain financially and for personal safety and health. So like, it's a whole different level.
3:06 Kirsten Korosec? In your view, I mean, 2021 really sticks out because that was the sort of meme stock era. And just, I was a terrible forecaster at that time, because I thought for sure everything was going to settle down. And it just seemed like there was a crazy amount of fundraising happening. And then it sort of is corrected in other ways. So where are we right now? Has everything settled down? Roseanne, I'm curious, like, what your perspective is, where we sit today?
3:29 Speaker 01 I mean, I would say yes and no. I think it depends on like, what sector you're thinking about or talking about, right? Like, if you're, you know, if you're an AI, it's 2021 on steroids, just even blowing that out of the water. I think if you're a traditional SaaS business, or a traditional like internet or consumer business, it's a lot tougher than it was. The bars are higher. And so I think, in some ways, it feels like, we've obviously come down from 2021. I don't actually think like, the carnage that everybody was expecting has frankly been as bad. And a lot of that is because those rounds in 21 were so large, that there are like, so many companies even today that are still able to just continue on off of that capital, despite frankly, like, being very underwater from a financing
4:12 Speaker 01 point of view. So I think it's taken a really long time for that generation of companies to come back to market. And so I don't think we've actually seen the full market pricing of those assets.
4:21 Kirsten Korosec? That's interesting. I mean, I think the carnage, if I saw anything, was companies that managed to raise. Looking at their runway and saying, hmm, maybe I better cut costs, layoffs. So we saw that piece. So just to stretch that dollar longer. But you're right, haven't really seen it completely played out. I'm wondering what it's going to look like, let's say, a year from now or so. If those firms are now starting to run out of money and if they're going to be coming back to companies like Renegade Partners.
4:52 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I think the other piece of the carnage too, like that we've seen in other market recessions that hasn't happened wholesale as much as like as down rounds, pay to play, the same way that it was in the last financial crisis.
5:06 Kirsten Korosec? Yeah, no way, for sure.
5:07 Speaker 02 Right. And if actually look at what happened, there were a lot of bridge rounds that happened in sort of 22, early 23, that kind of basically kicked the can down the road. So if you asked us a year ago or a year and a half ago, we thought, okay, the back end of last year would have been more reset and more companies maybe going out of business or something. And it hasn't happened at the pace that we thought it was going to.
5:31 Kirsten Korosec? Yeah, that was unexpected to me as well.
5:33 Speaker 01 And I do think we're going to see of that kind of like generation of company that was overcapitalized and is sitting at a price that it will never be able to grow into. I don't think we're going to see some like cataclysmic event. I think we're going to see kind of over time drips and drabs of those companies going out of business. And I think one thing that's really hard for entrepreneurs and these founders who have started these companies is that they're working to try to make it work. And even if they've like turned their business around and growing again and doing well, you go back to market and you're competing for dollars against all these brand new shiny companies that don't have any baggage.
6:06 Speaker 02 Right.
6:07 Speaker 01 Right? And I know you want to talk about mega funds later, but I think like one thing that kind of gets lost in the mega fund style of investing, when we're thinking about like buying options effectively is that like, these are years of founders' lives, right? Like, people are signing up to do this for a long time and their opportunity cost is extremely high.
6:24 Speaker 02 Right.
6:25 Speaker 01 And so I think it's just really tough if you're of that vintage because if you want to go back for basically like a recap that makes you look like a series A, you're competing against a brand new series A with a pristine cap table and no drama.
6:40 Kirsten Korosec? Yeah, it actually makes a lot of sense as to why in my world, in autonomous vehicles and things like that, you're seeing these companies with a lot of baggage sort of changing the packaging and describing themselves as AI companies to sort of look fresh and new.
6:55 Speaker 02 Right.
6:56 Kirsten Korosec? I want to get into your fund. You have a second fund that you recently closed for 128 million. I'm wondering how what you learned in those first few years informed the investment strategy and this second fund. Renata, love to get your take on that. I'm wondering if it has changed at all.
7:18 Speaker 02 So I'd say that our strategy has been more informed by the 10 plus years before, the four before, right? So I started my career at Felices and then Lux and Roseanne was at Canon and IVP. And then we actually took that 10 years plus experience and we said, okay, what are the things that are true value creators over time? Like one is this idea of we're here to create alpha and alpha means how can you take exposure away from just crazy market fluctuations that are not sustainable? So like the first thing we did for Fund One was let's actually invest. Instead of going crazy all out in 2021, let's invest over cycles. So our Fund One was actually, you know, 2020, 2021, 2022 plus.
8:03 Speaker 02 So when we look at the types of companies that we back, the types of businesses, the prices we paid is actually a lot more balanced. So one, time diversification matters. The other one was let's back durable businesses. Cause like we started investing in this moment where everything was up and to the right at a rate that we could not justify or explain rationally from a bottoms up perspective. And we said, if the music stops, what gets a chair? Durable businesses in markets that matter. So one of a kind technology companies like aerospace intelligence. That's really kind of revolutionizing the way airlines and government and defense are deploy and optimize flight routes and flight assets, right?
8:48 Speaker 02 Things in food safety, things that in FPNA for biotech, like drug discovery is more distributed. That's not going to go away. So if the music stops, so we actually also backed a really sort of resilient portfolio that when you kind of look at, okay, how's Fund One doing from a Runway and growth perspective, we're in the game big time. But that didn't come from looking at what happened in the past four years. It's like, okay, we've been in this game for a while.
9:16 Kirsten Korosec? Yeah, right. What about Roseanne as far as fund to is that still the focus, meaning funding over cycles? So is that consistent? And then also, I like the analogy you used, Renata, that who has the chair? So those durable, because there is this trade off between, oh, I want to fund the next new new thing, which might be deep tech, by the way, but also so you have to put your predictors hat on. And then also something that's going to be durable. So it's a tough balance. So is that reflected in the fun too as well?
9:48 Speaker 01 Yes, for sure. You can't like timing markets is impossible, right? So the only thing that you can do is be consistent. And so we really try to just keep pace consistent, right? Like when the market is slow, we try to be faster than the market. When the market's fast, we try to be slower, just so that we're frankly, at the same pace all the time. What we're kind of thinking about are like, where are there markets where there are big exogenous shifts happening? Because frankly, there has to be some kind of state change in order for especially enterprises to buy something new, to do that rip and replace or to buy new software. So like, what are those like underlying fundamental changes? And what are the best business models to capture that change? Renata mentioned biotech, that we're investors in a company called Auxilius. And the way biotech has moved drug discovery or clinical trials have really been completely outsourced to CROs
10:32 Speaker 01 and become much more fragmented. Our belief is that actually with AI, that's going to get a lot worse, right? Because the top of the funnel, the number of molecules and targets is going to get so much wider. But that underlying infrastructure is just going to become more fragmented and more complex. And the interesting insight that that team had is that if you are a biotech company, 20%, your biggest spend line item, 20% of your business is not in your ERP. Because it's, you know, your ERP can't handle that. And so because of that, like they have an opportunity to build the new ERP for healthcare. And so we're really looking for things around like, where is this exogenous shift? That's not going away. And where is a business model where I can really capture this?
11:10 Kirsten Korosec? Yeah, it almost is, for lack of a better term, sort of looking for those picks and shovels opportunities, it seems like, around some of those big trends. So maybe not looking for the next gen AI startup, but like those companies that will support those larger trends. It reminds me a little bit of your biggest check to date, I think, which is Ansar. And that's a walled as a service startup. So we're not aware, does that fit into sort of what you just laid out? And what sold you on that startup to begin with?
11:42 Speaker 02 So if you kind of go to the core of any type of transaction, payment is the molecule. There's no buying or selling without payment. And this whole idea of how can we improve the infrastructure to better match customer habits? And also enable the sellers of things and services to just be more efficient, have more relationship with their customers, right? So like it's a cost and revenue type of thought process. Ansar, it really is allowing any merchant to create a closed-loop wallet system without having to worry about the technology. And where that helps them is twofold.
12:23 Speaker 02 One is of course, because if you create that environment, you're only paying for processing fee once. It's like the time the end customer creates the wallet. It's not every time they use that you're kind of paying for that transaction fee. But most importantly, it actually allows you to have a different loyalty relationship with your end customer. So you know who your buyer is, they loaded a wallet in your ecosystem, and you now can start advertising differently to them, making them come back. So like if you kind of look at these high repeat, high retention types of markets, like quick serve, movie theater, gas stations, there are a lot of things where people go a lot and very often. And these merchants, until now, they didn't have a ray to actually nurture their best customers
13:07 Speaker 02 the same way Starbucks does, for example, and they actually spent millions of dollars to create that infrastructure. So Ansar is that in the box, but in a way that does not require technology integration, does not require the heavy lift. That a, let's say, a restaurant owner, a coffee shop owner does not have. So is this, you know, picks and shovels, but giving superpowers to people that don't have is like a very interesting dynamic. And then what got us excited was really the background of the team. They've been very deep in payments for a very long time. The founder, Sophia, literally wrote the book on payment. She was at Adyen before, really kind of doing a global payment. Infrastructure, JT, the co-founder, was at Affirmant and Impera, and they have a lot of people that understand the plumbing,
13:52 Speaker 02 not just the use case, because this is like a very hard plumbing to do, right? There's a lot of internal accounting, like there's a lot inside the box that allows it to be simple for merchants to use. And we think that the time is very ripe because margins for merchants are compressed. There are many different ways to pay, right? Because you have Apple Wallet, like so many different ways to pay. So how will the payment infrastructure evolve to kind of meet where the habit is? So like, we're very excited about that.
14:21 Kirsten Korosec? Yeah, I mean, there's obviously a lot of competition too. So, Roseanne, I'm wondering if you could share a little bit of your secret sauce? And I think maybe Renata hinted at it a little bit. When picking the company, when you know that there's competitors out there or who are presenting similar ideas, is some of that Renegade Partners' secret sauce, funding strategy, all about who is the founder and more about that than, hey, there are a number of companies coming to us having somewhat similar bits of the same idea, and it's this founder that really we believe in? Is that a big piece of it? Or is it less important than maybe some other pieces, like technical parts?
15:04 Speaker 01 No, it's, the founders are critical, right? None of this can happen without them. And frankly, like, we're early-stage investors. When we're investing, there is some data, there's some momentum, there are some tea leaves, but like, it's not fait accompli of who the market leader is going to be. And frankly, like, a lot of times, these markets are like new and just showing up for the first time. And so you're, you know that there's uncharted territory. And so you're actually picking the person that you think is going to do the best job of figuring this out and capitalizing on it. And it's heartbreaking, like, Renata has like the best idioms, especially for like a ESL person. But.
15:40 Speaker 01 But it's like, oh, like you love the miracle, but you don't love the saint. Like it breaks your heart when you're like, oh, this idea, this market is so juicy, but like this person's a great person, but I just don't see them, you know, having the grit or the insight or, you know, the tenacity to really run this out, spend the years and figure out uncharted territory.
16:03 Kirsten Korosec? We talked about ANSA actually on the Equity Pod back in, I want to say late April, maybe early May. And one of the pieces of that conversation, which Mary Ann mentioned at the time, was that something like 95% of the investors at the time of that Series A were women VCs. It was highlighted as really kind of interesting data point. Are you seeing that more often? Or was this some odd phenomenon in which it just so happened that every person who was participating in this particular round happened to be a woman VC?
16:38 Speaker 02 I think in this case, it was serendipity, but maybe engineered serendipity in a way. So like the way that we kind of got into the conversation, we've been tracking ANSA for a while when they first launched. And we actually tried to get ahold of Sophia, and she was not raising it right now, you know, doing the founder thing. And then one of the existing investors gave a nudge. And then we also sent like a really compelling email saying why you should meet with us. So like, we actually kind of came to the party a little bit late. There were other players that were in the conversation a little bit longer than us, you know, maybe like a few days ahead. But then the way that we
17:19 Speaker 02 worked, the conviction we had, et cetera, made us sprint faster. So it wasn't, you know, Sophia saying, let me go seek out female lead VCs or anything like that. It was a little bit of serendipity and insider investors that we knew very well also kind of putting in a word and saying worth talking to them. And then kind of ran at it.
17:43 Kirsten Korosec? Yeah. I'm wondering what the activity level that you're seeing. Just on women-led VC firms. There is some data that came out in late May from VC Journal that showed that women-led VC firms are on track to raise just 2/3 of the total they raised in 2023 and 2022. And there might be some catch-up happening here, so we don't know. But I would love your perspective, Roseanne, because Renegade, actually, I think was like one of the largest funds at 128 million in terms of are you seeing more activity? Does this data just not track with what you're seeing on the ground? Or are you unfortunately seeing like actually women-led VC firms raising less this year?
18:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, I actually think that our fund is like the largest 100% women-led fund so far of this year. But I think there's kind of two things. One, anytime there's capital tightening, like when the capital supply goes down, it's like women and minorities are the first ones to get squeezed out. We saw that venture as an industry got way less diverse, actually, after the dot-com crash, right? Because it was like women and minorities were the last people hired. They were the first ones hired. We saw that in 08. And so I'm not surprised as like it's a softer fundraising year that women and minorities are going to feel it disproportionately. But on the other hand, I think in our circles, like we live in like a really vibrant community of like amazing, you know, female managers. Kirsten Green and Aileen and, you know,
19:11 Speaker 01 even just thinking about like Christina Shen, and who just left Andreessen, and Maya Noth, who just from Excel, who just announced. I think there's really palpable excitement for this like new generation of female-led funds that my hope is that like we're not even having this conversation, you know, in 10 years because these are just A-plus funds, not just female-led funds.
19:30 Kirsten Korosec? Right, just being called out for that. And I can tell your excitement, even though we're not sitting here in like physical form. It does feel sometimes a little different this time around. And maybe it's just because it's building off of successes in the past and it's becoming more of a normalized thing as opposed to just highlighting here's this women-led VC fund. Renata, I don't know if you agree with that.
19:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, I agree with that. And I would be very curious to see. The data on how the percentage is tracked to also just emerging managers in general. Cause I think as a category for this time around, let's say the past, you know, 12 months or so. It's harder to raise because you have existing franchises that have gotten bigger, that have raised faster, that have welcomed new LPs into their base, and that's taking away allocation from emerging managers in general. So if you see, okay, the IPOs not happening, that puts liquidity pressure on LPs. So they are on average more exposed to illiquids that they would like, more venture than they would like.
20:36 Speaker 02 Not the same as what happened in 2018, but more than they would like. So it means, oh, I have less chips to play, less dollars to play. And then you have undeniable brands that have raised, that have gotten larger, or they come back at a pace and that competes against emerging managers in general. So we feel very fortunate to have close fun to successfully the way that we did, to have really high caliber institutional LPs that can go the distance. Cause we know that, you know, in this market, this is not an easy feat.
21:07 Kirsten Korosec? Yeah. Roseanne hinted at this a little earlier, but another trend that we're seeing is sort of this like buzzy shift away from mega funds in favor of small or medium sized funds across the industry. I'm curious what you think is driving that. I'm sure you both have opinions on this, but Roseanne, maybe you could kick this off. Like, why is this happening?
21:30 Speaker 01 We've seen this for a while. Like this has been happening. We were talking about this when we left our jobs in 2018. You know, when I, I joined IBP in 2015 and we had a billion dollar fund. I'm like, that was special back then, right? And now like it's a dime a dozen. And the world is kind of bifurcated into these platforms and into boutiques. And so that I think has been happening for a while. But the platforms have just gotten really, really massive. I think there is some like kind of tail wagging the dog here and that like part of that also has to do with like the LP bases, the capital sources that they're tapping. There's a lot more sovereign wealth than there has been in the past. And you know, there's a lot of like really large pools of capital that need to write 100, 500 million dollar checks in order to make sense for their strategy. Whereas generally, like historically, the lifeblood of venture capital has been endowments
22:15 Speaker 01 and foundations that write smaller checks. We've seen this move towards these platforms, but frankly, like these platforms are looking less and less like venture firms and more and more like a black rock. And like, that's fine, that's, you know, there was an opportunity to build that in the market, but I think if we're thinking about like true venture savvy LPs, they're not going to get venture-style returns out of the platforms. Really savvy LPs are underwriting those platforms the way that they underwrite mega-cap private equity. Savvy founders understand that there's a very different product sold from a small focused venture firm than from a large platform. There are founders that prefer the platform, but I do think that especially as we see what's happening with like a lot of these platforms going earlier, overcapitalizing companies, the death rates, founders kind of dying out after spending a lot of years
22:58 Speaker 01 of their life, we're kind of seeing that swing back to let's price these companies correctly, let's put the right amount of capital in for where the company is so that we're actually like not introducing new risk on top of an already risky venture. I think that people are really understanding that this bifurcation has actually like created two separate asset classes and two separate styles of investing, more than just kind of two different flavors of the same.
23:22 Kirsten Korosec? Yeah, I'm wondering if, since Renata is so good at idioms, as you said earlier, that we need a new name for this because they all kind of get collectively put under this VC umbrella.
23:34 Speaker 01 Right.
23:35 Kirsten Korosec? But it is very different when sovereign funds are getting involved as opposed to a smaller VC firm. And I'm even seeing that on the strategic side in my world, which I play more in the transportation climate tech world, you're seeing massive companies standing up VC firms. And that's always been happening, but it seems to the pace and the size is becoming larger.
23:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:58 Kirsten Korosec? So I won't put you on the spot and make you name it now, but if you want to coin like a buzzy Term or idiom so that we can better classify this. I think that would be interesting.
24:08 Speaker 02 I will, I'll give it a think because now I feel pressure, but, but I think here's like technology exposure is different than venture capital and early stage. And I think the mega funds have gone full stack and they'll give you technology exposure. And on a blended basis, you can't, it's just math. Their, their skill is about math. You can't consistently generate early stage style of returns on billions. It's just mathematically impossible to do that consistently. But when you kind of go back to the origins of venture, what were the origins of venture? Actually have a very curated portfolio of not a lot of companies, right?
24:50 Speaker 02 Curated and there was a lot of alignment in terms of sort of risk profile. If you're one of hundreds of companies or if you're, you know, the check size invested in you and you kind of look at, okay, what is the value at risk here for this billion? It moves the needle only if you are an exquisite outlier at astronomical returns. Right? So the incentives between the founder and the manager, the GP, or let's call it whatever, are very different than if you look at an aligned, a right-sized fund like ours. We do 20 companies of funds, six to seven companies a year. Every founder knows that they matter to us the same way.
25:35 Speaker 02 Our success is intertwined with theirs. Instead of, okay, you're one of a lot and your check size, it's, you know, doesn't move the needle at this point, or if you don't work out, I lose very little. There's misalignment.
25:51 Kirsten Korosec? Yeah. I wonder, Roseanne, where this goes from here? Will there be this? Big correction, or we're going to continue to go down this path where we see actually more mega funds and it keeps growing. Would you put your predictor hat on? Where are we six months to a year from now?
26:09 Speaker 01 These cycles are long. The LP investment cycle even into a later stage fund is still underwriting seven to 10 years. These capital commitments and these new capital sources that still have relatively low amounts of like quote unquote venture exposure, I think are here to stay. So I do think we're going to see these like massive monoliths continue. I don't necessarily think we're going to see a bunch of new ones spring up. I think those that kind of cross the chasm did so in 21, 22, and I think that would be very hard to do that today. But I do think like those guys are here to stay. I do think like we're going to continue to see this trend of, you know, I mentioned Christina Shen and Maya Noth. Like I think we're going to see the best GPs, Mark Goldberg, Ethan Kurzweil, right? We're going to see the best GPs at these large, large monolith platforms say
26:52 Speaker 01 like, I want to do venture and spin out and go on their own. So like, I think that's the trend we're really going to see continue. Like Nikhil at Footwork, right? Like there's just, we see that trend of spin out emerging managers is only going to get better. And I frankly think that's like, great for us, great for the industry. Like, I'm so excited about it. Like, I love when I get those calls from friends saying that they're like thinking about this because they're building, I think, what our industry needs, which is that alignment Renata talked about so eloquently.
27:16 Kirsten Korosec? Yeah. Renata, how many people do you know who are sitting at these large funds who are preparing to leave and start their, their own?
27:24 Speaker 02 We get calls weekly and the pace has increased.
27:28 Kirsten Korosec? Okay.
27:28 Speaker 02 Like two years ago, we were, we were getting on and off calls. Like now we get calls weekly from different people. Like, you know, yes. Yeah, I got one yesterday.
27:37 Kirsten Korosec? Nice. Well, that's good news for TechCrunch because now we have more, more to write about. On that note, though, I want to thank you both for coming on Equity. It was such a wonderful conversation. Where can people find you online? LinkedIn, Twitter, or X, I should say?
27:56 Speaker 01 I think probably our LinkedIn is the most active these days. I gotta be honest, I'm not on X as much anymore. It's turned into a little bit of a cesspool for me. So I've been staying away. But we're running good partners on both platforms and my Twitter is I'mTheMusic, which is like for my first company that I started that I, like, I feel beholden to. So I haven't changed the name.
28:18 Kirsten Korosec? Or the handle. Good, a loyalist. And Renata, also best place LinkedIn?
28:22 Speaker 02 Yes, LinkedIn. And my X handle is @arquintini@renatawastaken. So that's that.
28:29 Kirsten Korosec? Great.
28:30 Speaker 02 But like Roseanne, like the X experience is decayed pretty significantly, so.
28:36 Kirsten Korosec? So LinkedIn.
28:37 Speaker 02 That's right.
28:38 Kirsten Korosec? If you want to follow what Renegade Partners is up to, thanks again, and can't wait to see where your next investments are. Thanks so much, Kirsten. Thank you so much for having us. Just a reminder to our audience, Equity will be back Friday. See you then.
28:53 Speaker 03 Equity is produced by Teresa Loconsolo with editing by Kell. Bryce Durbin is our illustrator. And we'd like to give a big thanks to our audience development team and Henry Pickavet, who manages TechCrunch Audio Products. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk to you next time.
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