'Every software company is an AI company now,' says AngelList CEO Avlok Kohli

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• 0:00Anthony Ha?

  This episode of Equity is brought to you by Schneider Electric. Schneider Electric, your energy technology partner.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Hello and welcome back to Equity TechCrunch's flagship podcast about the business of startups. I'm Mary Ann Azevedo and this is the episode where we bring on industry experts to help us explore a trend in the tech world and dive deep. Today, we're joined by Angel List CEO Avlok Kohli to dive into a variety of topics, including just what Angel List does today, the state of angel investing and so much more. Avlok, welcome to the show. How are you today?

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me. Doing great and excited for this podcast.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, looking forward to it as well. So I don't know if everybody is aware of your background. Prior to joining Angel List in 2019, you actually founded and sold two companies of your own to the likes of Postmates and Square. They include FastByte, which was a food delivery company, and then Ferry, a provider of high-frequency house cleaning services. So you obviously bring an interesting perspective as a former founder and operator. So we're going to get into that a little bit more later. But I think one thing I'd like to clarify upfront before we get into anything else is just really exactly what Angel List does today. I know that it started as a platform to connect startups with early-stage investors.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  It's expanded over the years into kind of more of a, I think, an infrastructure provider. It's definitely evolved over time. So I guess Angel List is no longer just a job board or angel investment platform. Can you clarify for our listeners, exactly what does Angel List do today?

• 1:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, the best way to think of Angel List today is we're actually the go-to fintech platform where any GP in venture can actually launch or scale their next fund. We took what was a SPV provider in 2019 and we scaled it out over the last almost six years now into venture funds, rolling funds, where we invented a whole new product. We also introduced another innovation, RUVs, roll-up vehicles for founders to

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Capital. So you can really think of us as the go to fintech platform that has scaled up fund management for any GP that's looking to start or scale a venture fund. That has really been the past six years of Angelus is really scaling everything we have out. And at this point, we run a fairly large portion of early stage venture funds. And we've also started supporting scout funds for some of the largest venture firms. In fact, we support a scout program for one of the top five firms in tech. That's really the best thing about Angelus today. And we can also talk about where Angelus is going, which is even more exciting because we now have enough scale that we've started looking at act two and act three of the company as well.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Hmm. Okay. Yeah. So the scout program, what does that mean exactly that you actually is rather than a VC firm having an in-house scout that you provide a scout to help them scope out potential investments?

• 3:04Speaker 02

  We're actually the management layer, the fund management layer for scout programs. So what typically happens is if you're a venture firm that wants to do a scout program, you need to have a fund that then can house the capital for the scouts. And then the scouts themselves are deploying capital from that fund. You need to set budgets for each scout, how much they can invest into deals. You need to manage the investments over typically a 10 year hold period. And so Angelus manages the whole thing end to end. So rather than a firm needing to handle it in-house, they effectively have offloaded that whole management to Angelus because over the past six years, we've built up all of the necessary sophistication on the software and the accounting on the

• 3:45Speaker 02

  reporting taxes and compliance. This is actually one of the most key differentiator for Angelus is we can actually handle the compliance for the entire scout program. They've actually offloaded over to us and it actually allows them to scale it out further and faster. And in fact, scout programs are the best kept secret in tech. I don't think any firm will ever fully speak on the record in the details of their entire scout program because it works incredibly well. And we actually just recently published some stats on a scout program where at least what we're seeing within the Angelus platform, which we've also validated is reflective of the industry is we see almost one in, one in five. Investments that are made are actually made through a scout first. So they're very important sourcing for some of these firms.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Didn't realize it was quite that much. You know, obviously, we saw a lot of craziness during the pandemic and you mentioned the initiation of rolling funds. But anyway, there was funding craziness, we saw crazy highs, record investing, peak valuations. And then we saw kind of like a plummet, right? So I feel like a lot of people were burned through these kinds of ups and downs. Would you say that people are still as enthusiastic about nascent startups as they once were? Outside of AI, because I know right now it feels like that's what everyone seems to be interested in. And what do you think angel investors want now versus a few years ago?

• 5:06Speaker 02

  So I will say that every software company is an AI company now. And so the enthusiasm into AI carries over into everything, which effectively impacts all startups. And so because of that, I would say the interest in investing in startups is still very, very high. We, even a few quarters ago, were categorizing, oh, this is an AI startup and this is not an AI startup. But it turns out as AI and underlying models are getting really good and they're just everywhere. It's sort of the, it's the substrate on which every company is going to get built now. And if you're an existing company, you need to adjust and become an AI company. If you're a new company, you absolutely are by default an AI company. You're going to be using all these models to make your product better. What we're seeing is interest in startup investing is very, very strong.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  And call it the zerp times where interest rates were zero were definitely a huge peak point. And that there was some artificial element to that huge rise. But given where interest rates are today, relative to, let's say, pre 2021, it is actually very strong. Investing in startups is very, very active. And the reason is because we're seeing that a lot of these new crop of startups, they're having record growth. They're actually growing very quickly with much lighter headcounts. And so that is ultimately driving a lot of the interest in startups.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I'm reminiscent of a few years ago when fintech was all the rage and people were saying a similar thing, but obviously on a different scale, far different scale. But, oh, everyone's a fintech, every company's going to be a fintech, meaning that a lot of companies are going to be incorporating financial technology somehow, like embedded payments or embedded banking or something like that into their offering. AI is different, I think, because it can be used in so many different ways. Although I have to say, I probably wouldn't necessarily myself agree that every single company needs to either become an AI company or incorporate it into what they do, because I feel like I keep getting pitches that people are trying to use AI to get my attention, but it's really kind of a lame attempt to just try to pretend they are AIs so that

• 7:04Speaker 01

  they can get attention, because I feel like there are still companies out there that can do awesome things that aren't necessarily going to be classified as AI companies. But, but having said that, you know, I'm encouraged to hear that there's still a lot of activity and interest in early-stage startups. Would you say beyond AI, what sectors are doing well, I guess? I mean, well, first off, what percentage of deals on your platform do you think are actually AI deals right now? And then what other sectors are on the rise or decline?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, just by percentage, AIs, in terms of what's being categorized as the highest, and it's growing. We're seeing forty percent plus of just the companies that are getting started and investing at the early stages are AI companies. I just saw a stat too, YC and a little dispatch had an even higher percentage of companies that are building themselves as an AI company. And we see this stat will continue to increase. And actually, a comment on what you said earlier, the way I generally think about these waves, right? We have been in Silicon Valley since 2009, so I've seen many different waves at this point. At one point, social was the wave, then local was the wave, then logistics was the wave, fintech was the wave, and AI was the wave. I probably missed one or two in there, right? In the past many years.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  And the very interesting thing about these waves, it's actually very natural. What you get is you get a Cambrian explosion of these startups. You get these boom-bust cycles. And it turns out that these boom-bust cycles is more of a discovery mechanism to find what actually will work. You can think of these as Many parallel experiments running to look at how do we take this technology or this insight and we bring it to the masses and we bring it to something that can push society forward. And you can't have one without the other. You kind of need to have all of these experiments running in parallel, which also means a lot of capital goes into it, which also means that if you're not in the winners, then people who've invested the capital do lose money there. But that's kind of the natural byproduct of the venture industry and also why we see the venture industry punch way above its weight class.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  You know, with respect to contribution to GDP or with respect to, you know, contribution to jobs, it's it's kind of part and parcel. You can have one without the other. Now, on the topic of AI specifically, we are seeing a very large number of these companies that are AI companies. Even the other categories that are there, like people are still starting fintech, the acquisition of Bridge from Stripe created this other wave for fintech. Crypto, of course, is also having a comeback because of this administration. They're very open. There's a lot that's going to change on the confined side. I would still say despite all of these tailwinds in these other industries, AI will continue to dominate and we're seeing that in our data as well.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I I would agree with you there. Like to switch gears just a little bit. I'm curious about what Angelus is doing to help solve liquidity challenges for investors. I know that there was a very dry IPO period, which is finally starting to pick back up a little bit this year. But what that has meant that there is all these companies that stayed private longer than maybe anybody thought they would. So what is Angelus doing with regards to secondary markets? I believe you had a product that was competing with Karta related to secondary markets.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  So there's a broader theme of liquidity and private markets. I would say that the thing that's led to the illiquidity in venture and private markets is the lack of companies going public as well as the lack of big M and As. In this administration, I think we're going to start seeing some more M and As, which is good. In fact, as today, Google announced their purchasing ways for thirty billion in cash, which will actually bring a lot of liquidity into the private markets for the LPs that were actually invested in ways, of course, right? It's not going to bring it to everyone. When it comes to the public markets, we're also starting to see that window open up. We saw Klarna just file to go public and we're also seeing a few others that are starting to line up. Remains to be seen, though. Obviously, the public markets are very unpredictable. It's hard to know where it actually goes, but at least today we're sort of seeing some of those signs.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  With respect to what, you know, the products Angelus has had. Any product that we've actually looked at building has always looked at how do we provide liquidity at the fund level versus at the company level. And what this means is that anything where you're trying to provide liquidity, the question answer is, hey, if an LP is trying to sell out of a position in the fund, then that is something that we can support. So at a minimum, we can support logistics of it. So if you're a fund in the platform, you're trying to sell a position to someone else, the GP coordinates it and then we facilitate that transaction. Then there is another aspect of it, which is can we bring the capital, right? Can we collect the capital and then bring it? And we've never actually had a large scale effort on this, but we do have a program that we are looking at,

• 11:31Speaker 02

  which is can we actually pool together capital and help purchase out specific positions from specific GPs? It is, I would say, at the fund level and it is something that we're experimenting with, but we don't have any large scale effort. On the startup side, we do allow for different ways in which we can make it easier for companies to facilitate secondaries within their own cap table. And a lot of this typically are the employees. So employees want to sell a little bit and what can Angelus do to help smooth that out? And we have experimented with a few product updates there and we facilitated some of these transactions. And one example is a company that uses R U V product to facilitate secondary. So every, every quarter or every year, I can't remember the exact frequency, they will actually have investors that are excited to invest in the company.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  They will create an R U V and then they'll actually use that to facilitate secondaries for the employees. And so we've supported there. So we have a crossover with Carda on that product. But as we think about bringing capital, we think about it at the fund level.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Right. And I, I think last week you announced a new product called Finn.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  Right. You describe it as a reasoning engine for private market data for GPs and LPs. So are you using AI for that? What exactly is that product?

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I alluded to earlier that we're very focused on act two and act three at the same time. This is natural as company scales, you can move into a Jason market. So you can think about the last six years of Angelus as we're building out the back office business, the fund management business. And we're now looking at the front office side and the intelligence tool. So that Finn is our first intelligence tool. And what it is, is we've built this reasoning agent to access private market data. And we've plugged it into anonymize Angelus data because Angelus has a lot of data we built up over time. So for example, you can use Finn to answer a question like, hey, what's the median valuation for a company in the last month? Even the question, as we get people off the waitlist, even the question you ask, what percentage of investments are going into AI companies versus non-AI companies?

• 13:26Speaker 02

  You can just run this, by the way, in real time, yourself.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  Right? And this is what we're creating. You can run it and ask any sort of questions. And then we've also connected and created partnerships with other providers. So another one is, let's say you want to see, hey, over the last quarter, where's the most amount of secondary activity you traded at? We actually have partnered with a provider that works with brokers to collect all this information in one place. And so we can provide a, you know, visibility into that as well. Down to we've connected it to any fund that is on Angel List, they can actually ask questions of their own data. They can say, hey, what are my top value drivers? Then can I just take this and go create an LP update for me? Take the first pass at my LP update. And we think, what I mentioned earlier, every software company will be an AI company. We deeply believe that in Angel List. And this is our step forward in a product that lives and breeds that. That's what Finn is. I'm incredibly excited about it. I'm directly involved with it.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  And I find a lot of value in it. But that's just to give you a sense of what this tool does.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  Well, how else is Angel List using AI?

• 14:24Speaker 02

  There are some other ways. Like I mentioned, our core business is our back office business. You can almost think of it as like a factory where we have all these documents that are coming in and we're managing all the legal docs, equity docs for a fund, for investments. And it has to make its way through an entire process where we pull the right values out. We then record it to a general ledger. We get the accounting ready. These are financials for a fund and then we, every year, we have to handle the K ones. That process is typically managed with people at every step. AI is helping us automate all these different steps now. So for example, what used to take a human reading a long legal document? Well, we've now taken that, replaced that with a quick agent that will now read the legal document automatically, pull the information out and ready to record. So you can kind of think of, we have a human-driven back office process,

• 15:07Speaker 02

  which will now turn into an agentic-driven back office process with humans helping verify certain things versus humans being everywhere in that process. And so that's another way in which it actually is improving quite a bit of our back office operations. Eventually, we're also going to look at, how do we take? It's sort of like the combination of Finn and our back office system. How do we then start to expose it within our support side? So when someone emails in, let's say- Someone emails in asking, what's this company worth? Or can I get my K one? Well, we can actually help answer that question directly through AI versus through software versus needing a human to respond to that. So still very early, actually, in the entire process of how this thing will rewrite the entire business and just change the entire business. But these are just some ideas, some flavors of what we're working on today.

• 15:57Anthony Ha?

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• 16:34Anthony Ha?

  What moves our world forward? Energy. History has been shaped by it, revolutions won with it, and progress dependent on it. For 190 years, Schneider Electric has been a leading force in this story, creating the technologies that harness energy and transform the competitive landscape. And today, in the dawning era of energy and industrial intelligence, Schneider is helping customers build more efficient, resilient, and sustainable operations across every sector. From data centers to homes, from buildings to industry. Schneider Electric, your energy technology partner. Discover more at se.com.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  In April of 2022, it's been, gosh, already almost three years. I wrote about Angelus taking on its own capital at a valuation of about $4 billion. Can you update us on the health of the company? What's your current valuation? Are you looking to raise more capital? How's your customer base now compared to then?

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, overall, very, very healthy as a business. We have more cash in the bank than we had when we raised that round. And we continue to add to the cash balance. So we're very profitable. Our revenue has actually grown since we raised that round as well. And so we've managed to grow throughout the last few years since we raised that round. In terms of current valuation, that is the last mark that we have, and we haven't raised since then, and we don't have any plans to raise. In fact, if you look at Angelus history, we've always rarely raised, and this is even prior to me. We raise capital and assume it's the last amount of capital we ever raise. And we really focus on building real leverage in the business, real efficiencies in the business. And we don't always get it right, but I would say the general mark is where we get it more right than wrong on that.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  And that sort of puts us in a very strong position that we're in today.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  When did you become profitable?

• 18:21Speaker 02

  It's actually been a couple of years. I don't know the exact date, but it's definitely been a couple of years.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Have you changed how you charge customers? And how many employees do you have today?

• 18:31Speaker 02

  I think it's closer to two twenty-ish or two thirty-ish. I'd have to go get the exact number. We're in the process of hiring. The customer base has shifted quite a bit in the last few years. So fun fact is, prior to 2022, majority of our revenue actually came from the SPV side of the business. And post 2022, SPV side of the business is actually the smallest part of our business. We evolved the business extremely fast and our product grew up extremely fast. And we think of our path as like we're continuing to move up market, taking on larger and larger funds, and getting a lot more sophisticated with the types of customers we work with. And to be clear, this was always part of our journey. We had always intended to start with a small fund, small GPs. And, you know, it's a classic, you start out looking like a toy. We were a complete toy even like six years ago.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  We could only do small SPVs, only do very, very small funds. But that is the path for how you build something great, is you start looking like a toy and then keep inching up. And so pre 2022, majority of the revenue from SPVs, and post 2022, we started changing that mix. And now the fund side of our business is the largest part of our business. As we've continued to grow and take on more and more of the GPs, and like I mentioned, we've now made a pretty big push into scout programs. Scout programs today are typically reserved for the largest Firms who can afford it, but we think that we can actually take scout programs and bring it to every firm. It's sort of the classic thing that Angelus does, which is take something a small number of people do and find a way to bring it to all other firms. And we just think it'll actually expand the number of people that can participate in venture,

• 19:57Speaker 02

  which is sort of the classic thing we've done, which is on the LP side, we can bring a lot more people in. On the GP side, we can bring a lot more people in because every scout is a future investor, a future venture investor and a future GP. In fact, Angelus' track record is that because of our early product on the syndicate side and SPB side, a lot of the really good investors today actually credit their entire entry into venture to Angelus because Angelus helped them get started in like a really easy, lightweight way. And so we think we can do the same thing again and again and again. It's really like be this almost like entry point for a lot of people into the venture industry and investing at startups, which again, what drives us ultimately is innovation for society. And we think that having more people out at the edges backing the founder

• 20:39Speaker 02

  when they first have an idea, when no one believes in them, is actually incredibly powerful. Because all you need is that first check from someone that believes in you. And the more people you have out there that can write that first check, we think that more startups will get started, more people will get funded and then we can see more innovation in society.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  So it's for Angelus being profitable for a couple of years now, awesome. So revenue wise, you say it's grown. Are you still in the double digit range? And do you see Angelus continuing to operate as a standalone entity or ever being incorporated into a larger organization?

• 21:11Speaker 02

  We haven't shared our revenue publicly, but you can sort of guess where we're at based on us being profitable and our employees' size. In terms of our independence, which is that next question, yeah, we have plans to stay independent. We've had over my time here, multiple offers and people interested in absorbing Angelus. But for me, I'm like very focused on building a long-term enduring business. And that's really what I'm here for and that's what the team is here for.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  This current market, what does it mean for these emerging GPs and founders alike? Having been a founder, what advice can you offer for aspiring founders? And sorry, I'm asking a lot of questions at once, but also what are some other trends? Or what are some trends that you think that we can look out for the rest of this year?

• 21:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think we're in the middle of the biggest transformation in tech in the world, period. Maybe I'll tackle the founder piece first. On the founder piece, go learn every single possible AI tool out there. It is truly changing every single week and every single week there are new capabilities that shocks even me. Yeah, it's very fast moving. It's extremely fast moving. I'm, you know, I'm a software engineer by background. I went to school for it. You know, I spend my evenings and weekends just trying to keep up with everything and it is changing so fast. And these tools are improving so fast that I would just recommend that folks go learn it and learn it quickly. And that's sort of like advice number one, go do that. And second, as a founder, just solve your own problem. That is literally all that matters.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  All companies are basically built off of some product that solves typically what a problem the founder has. And so really just stay focused on a problem that you have, solve it. And that's typically the best way to build something great. I'd say in the emerging GP side, the key thing there I would recommend, and we have to kind of define emerging GPs. There's like different classes. There was like below fifty million, then between fifty and a hundred and fifty, right? So you kind of have like two different classes of GPs. But generally, what I see is as GPs scale up fund size, they move from a positive sum game, where you're participating in early stage rounds to a zero sum game where you need to lead a deal. But when you lead a deal, someone else loses. You now compete with the likes of Sequoia and Grecian.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  And what you have to ask yourself is, as an emerging GP, like, why would a founder choose you to lead their deal? Whereas when you're participating in rounds, it's very different. Everyone can win, right? There's more than enough allocation, not always, but typically you can invest at least something in a round, and especially rounds in companies that are pretty high signal. So my general recommendation is, counterintuitively actually, is you do want to keep the fund size smaller. Until and unless you have a very good and core thesis that you will win a zero sum game. Because that's what it is. And I know of plenty of incredible proven investors where they've had.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Incredible actual cash on cash returns who will very actively decide not to play the zero sum game and will play the positive sum game where they continue to participate versus lead and they theoretically lead, of course, but it's just the nature of the actual investing chain. So that's one. I think the second broader trend that we're seeing is where we are seeing some firms scale up, right? We're seeing the rise, and I think this is normal for any industry that started off as a cottage industry, which is what venture was for many, many years. And as that industry scales up, you're now seeing the rise of the mega investors, right? You're seeing a recent Horowitz, Sequoia, General Capitalist. So you're going to have that category and then you have, I would say, the emerging category. And we're not seeing as much in the middle right now.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  It is changing very fast. We're observing market trends. That's one of the biggest ones that I've noticed is that we're not seeing a lot in the middle. We're kind of seeing this like complete shift and push into two ends of the spectrum. And that, I think, does change the nature of venture investing. But the other piece is a lot's changing with startups, how much capital they need. Actually, this was on, I was reading a TechCrunch article yesterday on this founder, I think he was eighteen, built Cal AI. It's like an iPhone app that does twenty four million in revenue.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  A year. And I think it's just him or maybe a couple of other people. Now that was so fascinating. I downloaded, I'm like a user and I paid for it instantly. I was like, this is awesome. You know, built the entire thing. It's a beautiful app, really smooth. You can tell he cares about the details. And the really beautiful thing about it is you don't need a lot of people to build that anymore. You can actually use a lot of the AI tools to even change how you build companies, how you write code, how you market, all of that. And so, okay, what does this mean for investors? It means there are founders that'll need a lot less capital going forward. So now you have to change also the way, how you think about where you invest, when you invest. So anyway, it's like a really fun time because I think the underlying technology is changing, the underlying capital needs of startups are changing. And I think just the venture industry overall is changing.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  But I will say that the folks that do win in all of this will be the founders and customers that ultimately use our products.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  And we're just about out of time, but there is one last thing I wanted to ask you about. I wrote earlier this year about startup shutdowns and you had told me, according to your statistics, that they were up in twenty twenty four, but that still there were so many startups that weren't shutting down. Do you think we've kind of peaked in terms of startup shutdowns or what do you see happening the rest of this year? No?

• 26:14Speaker 02

  I think we're continuing to see it. Yeah, I think it's one of those things where it takes time for all of this to get worked out of the system. And so, you know, our view is we will continue to see more of these shutdowns. And you can almost look at what was this sort of big increase in startups in the 2021, 2022 era? And what is the average growth in the industry? And this is sort of this idea of reversion in the mean. And the way I kind of think about this is all the startups that were funded in excess of like, what is, what should be expected, will just revert to the mean. And all of those will eventually get flushed out of the system. And I don't know, have you seen this chart where they show e-commerce adoption during COVID? And then they superimpose it on the trends of e-commerce adoption that they expected if COVID hadn't hit. You have this like chart that goes up. And then people

• 26:59Speaker 02

  assumed, oh, this adoption, like this is a permanent increase. It turned out that the adoption went up and then it went back down and it effectively reverted to what people expected the trend should be. And that's our view on what's going to happen here as well. And the why behind it is capital isn't typically the constraint for any of these startups. In fact, if you give them more capital, it means they have a higher probability that they're not going to be able to do anything with it, right? Because capital is never the constraint. The constraint always is creativity, product innovation, building something great for the customer. That's always the constraint. And in fact, if you give a lot of capital to a lot of startups, you just create a lot more copycats that are out there. And if you're not differentiated, you're not doing anything unique, you're not permanently increasing

• 27:41Speaker 02

  the number of startups that can exist. Now, I do think in general, we're seeing the increased number of startups, but I think the usurped time was a, it was a big leap that will revert to the mean.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  That's interesting. Now, we are officially out of time. This has been so interesting. I know we covered a lot of different topics, but all of it fascinating. Thank you so much for being on the show, Avlok. Where can our listeners connect with you or find your work online?

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can find me at x.com/avlok, A V L O K. I'm typically on there way too much.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  Aren't we all? Thanks again for joining us on the show. And to our listeners, you can find me on X at Bay Area Writer and Equity at EquityPod. Talk to you next time.

• 28:23Rebecca Bellan?

  Equity is produced by Teresa Locum Solo with editing by Cal. We'd also like to thank TechCrunch's audience development team. Thank you so much for listening and we'll talk to you next time.