Cracking the AI and consumer code with early Zoom-backer Maven Ventures

Maven Ventures General Partner Sara Deshpande has been investing in the consumer tech space for a decade. Over time, the seed-stage venture firm has backed the likes of Zoom, Cruise, Hello Heart, Perplexity and x. AI and has grown to over $200 million in assets under management. Now, with a new $60 million fund — and plans to write six to eight checks of up to $1.5 million each year — Deshpande joined TechCrunch senior reporter Mary Ann Azevedo on Equity to discuss the changes in the consumer landscape, how her firm is doubling down on artificial intelligence and what makes a startup stand out. When it comes to AI, Deshpande thinks that at the seed stage, AI's ability to improve life for consumers “is going to get here much more quickly than people think.” At the same time, she thinks that the peak AI frenzy was about 12 months ago. She also acknowledged that there is naturally going to be some “tumult” around the sector. Perplexity, for example, has been under fire amid plagiarism and web scraping charges. Equity will be back on Friday, so stay tuned! Equity is TechCrunch’s flagship podcast, produced by Theresa Loconsolo, and posts every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Overcast, Spotify and all the casts. You also can follow Equity on X and Threads, at @EquityPod. For the full episode transcript, for those who prefer reading over listening, check out our full archive of episodes over at Simplecast. Credits: Equity is produced by Theresa Loconsolo with editing by Kell. Bryce Durbin is our Illustrator. We'd also like to thank the audience development team and Henry Pickavet, who manages TechCrunch audio products. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:11Speaker 00

  Hello and welcome back to Equity TechCrunch's flagship podcast about the business of startups. I'm Mary Ann Azevedo and this is our Wednesday episode where we hone in on a trend in the startup world and dive deep. Joining us for today's conversation is Sarah Dischponday, General Partner at Maven Ventures, a seed stage venture firm investing in tech companies addressing emerging consumer behavior and trends. It has $200 million in assets under management across five funds. That includes four seed stage funds and one opportunity fund. Sarah, welcome to the show. How are you today?

• 0:45Speaker 01

  Thanks, Mary Ann, for having me. I'm doing great and I'm glad to be here.

• 0:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, super excited to have you here. So first off, I understand you've been with Maven for 10 years. You were actually the firm's first employee, is that correct?

• 0:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. When I joined Maven, Jim Scheinman had just started the fund. He had a successful career as an operator, executive, founder, mostly within the consumer tech realm and started Maven with the idea of investing in the exact same kinds of companies he was advising or investing in as an angel and as a founder. And he started and ran the fund for only about six months and only raised about $5 million at that time, really at the beginning of the micro VC movement in 2013, and realized if he wanted to launch kind of a true venture fund that was going to last for a decade or more, he wasn't going to do it alone. And so had started looking for somebody to come and join the team full time. And the two of us met and hit it off pretty immediately. Actually, within 24 hours of

• 1:38Speaker 01

  our first meeting, I was looking back recently, as we kind of came around that 10 year anniversary, at the email that I sent him kind of saying, hey, I'm like all in, let's do this. The two of us started working together almost immediately in 2014. So now it's been 10 years since the first employee and as you mentioned, we've grown. To, you know, five total funds, including closing our most recent fourth seed fund and about $200 million under management that we've grown the platform together over the last decade.

• 2:02Speaker 00

  That's really cool. I mean, there's been a lot of turnover in the VC world these days. So it's kind of refreshing to see partners who have worked together for so long and seem to be just going really strong. So yeah, so you closed on a $60 million fund that was announced in April. Christine Hall covered that. And I, I learned a few things about Maven at that time. So you actually have backed the likes of Zoom and Cruise. So wow. Since your seed stage, that means obviously you invested very early into these companies. So wow, those were kind of big hits for the firm. I take it.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, what Maven's best known for is identifying an emerging consumer trend and trying to find an area of technology that we think can have a massive impact on people's lives. Then can we identify these founders really early on that we think have the potential to build a truly iconic business and really just work with them to help unlock that potential to build this iconic company. So we were very early investors in Zoom as well as Cruise Automation. Prior to raising Maven Fund One, Jim was actually an early advisor to Zoom and he's now well known for actually having named the company Zoom. So back in 2014, we were doing video calls way before it was in vogue, telling people to meet us online and meet us on Zoom. And so, yes, both two very early investments that have done really well for Maven and for our LPs. And I also

• 3:16Speaker 01

  think really highlight that broad lens on consumer, Zoom being kind of the beginning of face-to-face video and the technology to make that possible. Cruise Automation, one of the first companies that brought, you know, autonomous vehicles to the world. So very different trends, very different categories, but always kind of that unique insight around a new technology and a new opportunity to invest really before hypergrowth.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. One of the statistics that Christine reported is that 16% of your portfolio companies have reached a minimum $500 million exit revaluation, which is about 10x industry average. So yeah, that's impressive.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Thank you. We're grateful that our funds are really kind of top decile, top of the marks, especially those early funds across pretty much any, any metric. And I think there's a few reasons for that. And, you know, we do try to identify these emerging trend areas where we think there's a big market opportunity and something that is positioned for hypergrowth. And another piece of that is raising a fund that allows for a $500 million exit can be a massive winner for a fund of our size. And so building a concentrated portfolio where you can really work with those companies and, and they have the potential to be that kind of iconic consumer home run and kind of return the fund at those multiples. So we've had, you know, now multiple billion dollar plus exits, multiple $500 million plus exits, and many companies within the portfolio that are kind of at that $500

• 4:38Speaker 01

  million valuation or more. And we've only made about just over 60 investments in the last decade. So we keep a pretty concentrated approach. So that high hit rate for us, we think is really a signal that if we continue to do what we've been doing in the past and have doubled down on the strategy that's been working, we'll be able to continue producing those types of returns.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, it sounds like a focus on quality over quantity. And earlier this year, a couple of venture capital firms kind of came out, not against consumer, but saying that they were pivoting away from consumer tech. Andreessen Horowitz, Lara Heppel, I may have pronounced that firm's name wrong, and if so, apologies. But I know this kind of sparked a social media debate about whether there's still opportunity in consumer. And from where I said, it feels like if I were Maven or firms like Maven, that would be like, okay, cool. You know, that gives me more opportunity. If you don't want to invest in consumer, it gives me more room to back companies in this space. So, and I think your partner said it's less noisy, there's a lot less competition. Is that how you feel, how you see it?

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a few things that continue to work and really validate our focus on consumer. You know, the first is that consumer goes in and out of vogue all the time. It's very cyclical. Other funds say, we're in, consumer is the new, you know, multi-billion dollar outcomes. Now we're out, we're not doing any consumer. We only want to do, you know, B2B SaaS. And so now, a decade at Maven, 15 years working with startups, I've seen this ebb and flow. And so consumer does tend to go in and out of vogue. And so I think that there's really real value in continuing to focus on it. All the time.

• 6:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  In a time when others think it's out of vogue, it's actually a great time to be a consumer investor for exactly the reasons you mentioned. You know, there is less competition and less noise from others. And what we hear from founders is that when they meet with other investors, they're often asked and like, "Hey, what's your B2B strategy? How could you move this to enterprise?" And when they talk to us, they say, "How refreshing that you kind of see and share a consumer vision." And so I think that that kind of orientation is something that persists for us, and that's really helpful. The second piece of that is, you know, in 2014, what consumer meant then is really different than what consumer means today. We used to invest in a fair amount of mobile apps and kind of at the beginning of the mobile app ecosystem, of course, that was a lot of what was happening in 2014.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  And while that still does persist today, there's been a huge evolution of business models as well. And so now, if you look at things like Zoom in the portfolio, which I think most enterprise investors would be thrilled to be an investor in Zoom, but there was no more consumer company in 2020 than Zoom. And so we do have a fair amount of diversity across business models, especially in something like health and digital health, which we've been investing in since 2015. The healthcare ecosystem, for better or worse, in this country is not truly a consumer-led ecosystem. So if you want to invest there, you have to also invest in B2B to C or B2B business models with a major consumer trend and a major consumer product. But there might be a fair amount of diversity of the actual business model and the way the money changes hands. And so I think our lens about consumer really persists over time,

• 7:36Speaker 01

  but gives a fair amount of autonomy to find the right opportunities that can get very big.

• 7:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have noticed that your firm's investments thesis has evolved over the years. And then in those early days, you backed Cruise, Embark, May Mobility, and combined those companies are now valued at over $30 billion. And then you mentioned started moving into more of the digital health space, and you invested in Hello Heart, I think in 2016, which subsequently raised over $130 million, a digital coaching app to manage heart health. So one of the things, as you pointed out, that I find intriguing is I think when people think of consumer, the first thought is, "Oh, okay, it's like consumer goods, like, okay, buying razors or, you know..." Things like that. And it's kind of, I don't want to say misconception, but consumer, as you mentioned, is so broad.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  And when we talk about digital health, it's very different than just like products that people, you know, buy. I mean, health is crucial, right, for everyone. So we're talking about improving our health. So I feel like that's where a consumer can be a little bit misunderstood, I guess. Because health is not something that we're worrying about going out to buy because we want to buy things like razors, but more like things that we really need to be improved upon to help us live healthier and longer lives. So I know you've personally, I think you led investments in a bunch of companies in the space like Daybreak Health, Hello Heart Care, Fertility, Nest Genomics, Wild Type. I do find that intriguing and I do feel like people just don't necessarily include health when they think about consumer. Would you agree with that?

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's a really smart point. And any area that's misunderstood, if you have a knack and a capability and a skill set there, that's a great opportunity. And so when we're looking for something in digital health in particular, it is looking for, you know, something that's, we're technology investors first and foremost. So we invest in technology companies and tech companies that are addressing emerging consumer behavior and trends. So first it's tech and then it's, is this technology actually going to improve people's lives?

• 9:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  We now evaluate, I mean, hundreds of digital health companies. And the first hurdle we're always looking to get over there is like, do we really feel like this technology is going to improve people's health? Can this technology improve consumer health outcomes? And that has to be there. That's kind of table stakes to even evaluate an investment, to really feel like there's, you know, the opportunity for this to have a positive impact on people's health. And then it's usually some insight around either a new technology or behavior and trend. You look at Care Fertility, we were early seed investors. It was one of the first venture-backed fertility companies. You know, at the time that we were doing that investment, the sector hadn't really grown to what it has now, not only fertility, but kind of women's health in general. You look at Hello Heart, which was a mobile app that helps to track and manage hypertension

• 10:19Speaker 01

  and blood pressure, really a pioneer of applying machine learning and AI to improve health outcomes. It wasn't called that back then, right? They were a mobile app helping to track and manage and give you recommendations for heart health. But that's what they were doing. And then, you know, Daybreak Health, which is a company that helps improve mental health for teens. So that's a company we invested in 2020, when really the rise of mental health conditions of teens, particularly as they all moved into homeschooling during COVID, was really, really under the magnifying glass. So a company that has the opportunity to improve health outcomes there. So it's always a major consumer trend, always fueled by tech, and always something that we really feel like can actually help improve health outcomes for people. And we think that's where those market opportunities are. And also, companies we're really proud to bring to the world and to partner with.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  When we talk about seed rounds, like, are they bigger than they were a few years ago, about the same? I mean, in terms of size, like, what are you seeing in terms of overall size of seed rounds?

• 11:16Speaker 01

  You know, it's hard to draw a specific data point and a trend line on what it is. We've made now, out of this new fund, we've made 11 core investments out of this new fund. And those seed rounds have ranged in size from, you know, some pre-seed rounds, sub million dollar pre-seed rounds, all the way up to kind of seed rounds in the six to eight million dollar ranges is not unheard of for AI companies to raise, you know, seed rounds in that range. So I think for some companies, they are larger, particularly AI companies, and particularly if there is a multi-stage partner, a venture fund in the billions of dollars that's investing in a seed round, those tend to be larger seed rounds. But there also are still a fair amount of those sub million dollar pre-seed rounds, or sort of those two to three million dollar, what I would call a more traditional

• 12:01Speaker 01

  seed round. We see both.

• 12:03Speaker 00

  And outside of your portfolio, what companies would you say, like, in the health tech or AV tech market, are doing it right?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  In the AV space, we follow that, I would say, slightly less closely. Now, we built our portfolio there in 2014, 15, 16, right? So we were really kind of at the forefront of those types of companies. And so now, it would be highly unusual if we would invest in company now, because there are established players there now. So there's not a seed fund that's kind of getting started there now. But it has been interesting to follow things like the, you know, Wabi continuing to get funding for their company. So continuing to see hits like that that are happening. So I think that's really encouraging for the space. I'm still a huge believer there. And then on the digital health front, I mean, there's so many companies that I think have done great things that aren't necessarily in in the Maven portfolio. Things like, I think, Headway was a real pioneer in trying to figure out how to make

• 12:51Speaker 01

  mental health more affordable and available to people. I think Maven Clinic really was a pioneer in kind of the women's health space, especially with the types of investors that they brought around the table. I think Work at Health has done some really great work around addiction and trying to bring substance abuse treatment to people. So there's a lot of companies that I admire in this space and think are doing great things.

• 13:12Speaker 00

  When you're evaluating deals and you're seeing other investors participate, are you seeing other firms that are also very consumer focused or more firms with a broader thesis that are also looking to back these sort of companies?

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's very unusual to see a firm that has a lasting focus on consumer. It's highly unusual to see that. What I will say is even the folks that you mentioned earlier on that maybe have gone away from consumer, when we talk to, you know, friends and colleagues at those firms and others, what they say is, hey, if you find something that you think has that ability in consumer, we're interested. And so I think that the bar just is very high. I think the trends are hard to spot. The business models can be a bit unknown. The adoption and the timing of consumer preferences is so hard to predict. But I think there is appetite and interest in investing in these companies for sure across many seed funds, but it's very rare to find a specialist fund that, as the times come and go, that

• 14:09Speaker 01

  kind of retains that specialization.

• 14:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I know you've written and shared about how your firm is kind of building this AI consumer portfolio. And you've invested in a number of companies that are considered to be AI startups, including X.ai, Elon Musk's company, Perplexity, the Bock company, MultiOn, is that how it's pronounced? MultiOn, Nuance. So I mean, that's just, I think, a few of the companies that you've invested in in this space. So how long have you been investing in AI? And how has that shaped your current thesis moving forward?

• 14:45Speaker 01

  We've been investing in AI as an underlying technology for over a decade. You know, we talked about cruise. What that was really an application of machine learning technology within vehicles. And so I think today we'd call it AI. Then it was called machine learning or big data. You know, there were other kind of names for that. But our history is really kind of identifying these new trends in technology and these new tech capabilities and investing in whatever the consumer outcome there is. And so the thread of machine learning and AI and technology forward and frontier technology companies, that's been around for the entire decade. The shift around the ability of AI to reach into a consumer's life and solve a problem for them. You know, that really was an awakening of the launch and the success of ChatGPT.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  And if you look at the growth of ChatGPT, their pace to getting to, you know, the hundred million users, they're rivaling every other consumer company. And so we'd been looking at these types of companies for years. Our biggest question was, when is the timing? And when is the moment that the technology is right and that consumers are ready? That this can really achieve hypergrowth. And I think that ChatGPT moment in 2022 kind of was that awakening to say like, okay, now it's possible to start investing in these companies that we actually think can go all the way to a consumer and solve a problem for them. And so the kind of thread of AI investing covers many, many years. And the more specific, like, when is the time to invest in consumer oriented AI applications? Has really been for the last 18 months or so.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, obviously we've seen a lot of hype in the space too. And this always happens whenever a particular category takes off. And we saw this, you know, with fintech like in the past, AI has just been crazy. VCs everywhere writing check after check into companies. There's some very overinflated valuations out there, even into companies that have like little to no revenue. So as an investor in this category, what do you look for in AI investments? And would you agree that this space is overhyped now? I mean, how do you weed them out? How can you tell which ones are actually really legitimately doing something? Revolutionary with AI compared to a startup that's just kind of saying that they're using AI just so that they will be noticed by investors.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I actually think the peak AI frenzy was about 12 months ago as the technology was newer and really kind of entering the scene and the intensity with which startups were getting funded at that time. The pace was so high and I think now we've come back to a more steady state. I think the valuations can be still very inflated. These companies are raising a lot of money, but I do think there is more consideration and more diligence being done. And it is slightly harder for companies to raise funding, even for AI businesses today, than it was in kind of that peak, peak of the AI frenzy, maybe 12 months ago. So some of the things that we're looking for is like, number one, are you solving a problem for your customer?

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Is there kind of a unique consumer insight? Some reason this needs to exist, some specific end problem that you're solving. So that's kind of one thing that we're looking at. And the second is really the team. Do you have a technical product oriented team that's going to actually be able to deliver on that vision into this massive growing market? And so it's both, it's kind of like the vision, the insight, the problem, and a product oriented technical team that can deliver on building a product kind of into that.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  So would you say, I mean, I know that things were kind of frenzied in 2021, started calming down considerably 2022, more so in 2023. But I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like things have picked up in 2024. Even the summer's not as slow as previous summers have been. Are you seeing that where deal flows kind of picking up again, just a little bit more activity overall?

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, we've seen pretty consistent deal flow and activity now halfway through 2024. And I would say it's been pretty consistent and relatively high, but still affords the opportunity to spend time with companies and really consider them as a fit for the portfolio. Consider whether you're the fit, the right investor for that company. Also, I think there is some value to the noise. People say, oh, it's so noisy, there's so many startups. I think there is some value to the noise because you have to see a high volume of companies and ideas and founders to sort of calibrate where are the unique opportunities? And so. When we're thinking about like, where do we see future consumer AI opportunities? We're always dreaming of our own ideas and I want to meet every company in that space. I would meet 30 founders working in that category to see if there's some unique insight to tease

• 19:15Speaker 01

  out some kind of unique founding team. And so I don't think the noise is all bad. I think seeing a wide range of companies is really important to our jobs.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  What do you see ahead for the next year, year and a half or so in general with consumer investing and also in particular AI?

• 19:30Speaker 01

  You know, I do still think some later stage companies that may be raised in the peak of 21 or early 22, those are still working their way through the system. So I think we'll continue to see what happens with those later stage companies. And then at the seed stage, I think the ability of AI to improve life for consumers and do something for them is going to get here much more quickly than people think. You know, we're investors in perplexity, which you mentioned, which I think is one of the first examples of a truly magical consumer experience that does something for you that gets you kind of all the way to an answer. And that's just one example. The other categories we're looking at where I think we may see things, things for sure getting launched this year are in how do we use AI to kind of make things that were available to the 1% available to everybody?

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Like, can it be a unique affordability and access technology where things like concierge doctors can now be available to everybody? Longevity is now something that's available to everybody. A truly personalized financial manager that was only available to ultra-high net worth individuals, can AI technology make that available for everybody? So we're kind of looking at those frontier areas and trends around consumer AI. And I think AI still has a lot of power in social. Like, what are consumer social photo and video applications that are going to be improved by AI? And so I think we will see, my prediction is that we will see more consumer-oriented technologies, more agentic AI companies that can act on consumers' behalf, more health opportunities in consumer AI, and really looking at where are the areas where that

• 20:55Speaker 01

  technology can have a really big positive impact on people's lives. So that's my prediction for what I think is coming this year.

• 21:01Speaker 00

  I think one thing, though, obviously, there's been a lot of controversy too in AI. And I know perplexity in particular has been accused of things like ripping off content, accused of plagiarism, things like that. I mean, there's a fine line, right? And how do you think companies can address this ethically and responsibly? Because while AI, you know, it's amazing and it does a lot of really cool things, there are concerns around this in terms of ripping off content. And particularly, I know perplexity has been sued, things like that. I mean, what are your thoughts on that? How do you make this better and not, not happen, I guess?

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it is a technology that is bound to bring controversy and opinions on every side of, you know, the pros and the cons. My perspective is we are still so early that the rules are being written right now. I think companies like perplexity, you know, they want to bring a technology to people that's going to improve their lives and do, you know, something positive with that. And figuring out the rules of the game is just happening right now. You know, it's so early. And so I think that there is going to be probably continued turmoil. We're going to be on a roller coaster for a while of these companies figuring out, how do they like live in the world and solve problems for consumers and solve problems

• 22:20Speaker 01

  for enterprises and harness this really powerful technology? I think there's going to continue to be, you know, ups and downs. There's going to be a roller coaster kind of navigating that because those rules are being written right now. And so I just think it's a natural kind of like tumult that's going to happen. And our hope is that companies really have the end consumer in mind. They've got the ethics in mind, that they've got the perspective that they're trying to do right by their customers, do right by their partners and kind of get to the other side of what is just a technology that is changing things so drastically that there are, you know, a lot of different viewpoints and considerations. So I think it seems to be in the type of investing we do analogy I'll use with founders sometimes is like, the reality is like, the boat is always rocking in these private companies. And, you know, sometimes it's the weather and sometimes it's the boat and sometimes

• 23:05Speaker 01

  it's the captain and sometimes you have no idea what it is. And so the boat is always rocking and that is natural for companies and it's amplified by the power of this new technology. And so I think it's a period of time that, that we will just have to get through.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think while we were on this call, OpenAI just announced GPT-4O Mini. And so one of the things that I've been hearing is like, okay, well, OpenAI just keeps coming out with stuff that potentially kills what other startups are building or doing. So is that a concern for you as an investor? I mean, do you sit there and think to yourselves, okay, well, this company looks cool, but in six months, OpenAI could come out with something and just totally like, you know, kill what this company is doing?

• 23:46Speaker 01

  I think it's happened enough in the market that, of course, that has to be a consideration and, you know, and a possibility. And the way that we get conviction and enthusiasm to still invest is, you know, number one is, I do think a focused team solving a specific problem with a unique insight, working on one solution, has an opportunity to win. Startups have so many disadvantages, but focus and speed, you know, could be a real advantage. And so I think a company that's really gonna have that unique insight and the focus on solving one specific problem. And then the second aspect is there will be many companies that have to pivot because the OpenAI now, the kind of incumbent in the space, does something that they're doing.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  And a really technical, early-stage team with great product insights will have to figure out what to do next when that happens, because I think it is bound to happen. And so then it really kind of goes back to that strength of the team is can they double down and kind of find some unique insight there?

• 24:41Speaker 00

  Hmm. Well, before we wrap up, is there anything else that you want to say or any prediction you want to make about what's next for consumer?

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, the last thing I'll say is the consumer companies that are starting right now, I think have the potential to be much bigger than we can even imagine. And so it's a great time to start a consumer company. It's a great time to be an investor with a really specific consumer specialization and orientation. And I think that these companies can have such a big impact on people's lives and just can be so much bigger than we imagine. And that's happening right now. You know, we're all consumers and we can touch it and feel it and, and see that change happening. I think that there are companies that are being built right now that are going to be those kind of iconic names of the future, the Zooms and Cruises and those iconic companies of the future. And my hope for Maven is that we continue to get the chance to partner with those founders and be part of those journeys. And I think these companies will be bigger than we can imagine. And the opportunity is really exciting.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Well, Sarah, this has been really fun. Thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to have to wrap it up now, but Equity will be back on Friday. Until then, you can find me on X, Bay Area Writer, and Equity under the handle EquityPod on X and Threads. And Sarah, where can our listeners find you?

• 25:50Speaker 01

  They can find me and Maven both on X. I'm Sarah underscore dash and Maven is Maven VC. You can also find me Sarah Thomas Dishvande on LinkedIn.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  And to be clear, Sarah does not have an H on the end. It's just S A R A, correct?

• 26:05Speaker 01

  I so appreciate you asking that. My entire life, I've always, you know, had to remind people S A R A, no H. So, thank you.

• 26:13Speaker 00

  Right. Yes. No, of course. And to our listeners, don't forget to check out our sister show, Found, which dives deep into the stories behind startups with the founders who built them. Thanks so much for listening and thank you again, Sarah. Bye bye.

• 26:26Speaker 00

  Equity is produced by Teresa Loconsolo with editing by Kell. Bryce Durbin is our illustrator. And we'd like to give a big thanks to our audience development team and Henry Pickavet, who manages TechCrunch Audio Products. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk to you next time.