From the Spotify Mafia to the Lovable Mafia: inside Stockholm's founder network

Vibe-coding darling Lovable just raised $400 million at a $13.3 billion valuation, roughly doubling its worth in eight months. But Lovable isn’t the only Stockholm startup putting up huge numbers lately — legal AI company Legora and health tech startup Neko Health are right there with it. On this episode of TechCrunch's Equity podcast, Dominic-Madori Davis is joined by Sophia Bendz, a partner at Cherry Ventures and longtime fixture of Europe’s startup scene, to unpack what’s driving startup growth in the Nordic ecosystem, from Sweden’s social safety net to the wave of U. S. capital flowing in. Listen to the full episode to hear more about: How the “Spotify Mafia” set the template for founders funneling their time, capital, and hard-won lessons back into Stockholm ecosystem, and how the same cycle may be starting again with the “Lovable Mafia” Why Sweden’s social safety net might be fueling founders’ willingness to take bigger swings Why Bendz is seeing American investors flying into Stockholm and handing out term sheets with little to no diligence, and the culture clash that’s creating with local funds How Europe’s sovereignty conversation is shaping how founders and investors think about building, even as most of them still plan to IPO in New York Subscribe to Equity on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Overcast, Spotify and all the casts. You also can follow Equity on X and Threads, at @EquityPod. Chapters: 00:00 Intro 0:50 Why Stockholm’s startup ecosystem is accelerating 2:34 How Stockholm’s “Spotify mafia” passes knowledge down 4:10 Founders House and building a culture of mentorship 5:50 Does Sweden’s social safety net make founders more ambitious? 10:00 Is there a “Lovable mafia” now? 10:00 Europe’s push for tech sovereignty 14:00 The U. S. venture capital flooding Stockholm 18:08 How Europe can build more growth-stage funds 19:45 Founders are asking VCs, “How can you help me?” 21:05 Stockholm’s tech conferences 25:51 Could robotics become Stockholm’s next big thing? 29:45 Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This episode of Equity is brought to you by Schneider Electric. Schneider Electric, advancing energy tech.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Hello and welcome back to Equity, TechCrunch's podcast about the business of startups. I'm Dominic Midori Davis and this is the episode where we bring on industry experts to help us explore a trend in the tech world and dive deep. Europe's favorite vibe coding startup, Loveable, just raised another 400 million at a 13.3 billion valuation, roughly doubled the valuation it had just eight months ago. And it's not alone. Swedish startups like legal AI company Legora and health tech startup Necco Health are also putting up huge numbers. So what's going on in Stockholm? Is this Nordic ecosystem shifting into a new gear? To help us unpack it, I'm joined by Sophia Benz, a partner at Cherry Ventures and longtime fixture in Europe's startup ecosystem. Sophia spent seven years as a global marketing director at Spotify, has made more than 40 angel investments and previously built Atomico's angel program.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Sophia, welcome to the show.

• 0:57Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be on.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm super excited about this conversation. It seems like some of the hottest companies in the world are all coming out of Stockholm. I feel like this is a really basic first question, but Stockholm's ecosystem has had Spotify and Klarna. But recently, these AI companies that have been coming out of there, has something, what changed in the past few years that now suddenly? I mean, again, there's always been incredible companies, but has there something that's changed in the ecosystem in the past like five years?

• 1:27Speaker 02

  I mean, I think it has matured significantly the last, you know, four or five years. But I think it has been kind of a long time in the making. And, you know, for just my sort of time here, I feel like I've seen, you know, and had the pleasure to work closely with Niklas Sandstrom at Skype and then Daniel at Spotify, and then invested into companies such as Klarna with Atomico, et cetera, and seen kind of generations of founders. And I think one thing that strikes me is that it's a small place, you know, Stockholm. You can bump into these people on the street and it's easy to get hold of them. And I would say majority of them are very generous with their time.

• 2:09Speaker 02

  They kind of enjoy coaching and meeting up with the next generation founders. So being a small ecosystem, I think, is one of the components that makes it so dense. And therefore, the access to these people is fairly easy. So like, it is definitely, I think, a kind of passing of the knowledge into the younger generation. And then maybe a bit of also, we're this tiny country up in the northern part of Scandinavia in Europe. And, you know, maybe to some extent, we feel like we've been underestimated. You know, people maybe don't think that Spotify would have the guts to take on Apple, et cetera, or Skype to take on the whole kind of industry.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  So maybe an ounce of being underestimated and being, coming from a small place has some portion of it as well. And then I think also just lately, we have had this, you know, incredible growth of very talented, super motivated, hungry and disciplined young founders that have supported each other and also learned from the older generation.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's actually two points I wanted to talk about from what you just said. The first of which is like, so do you think like in terms of passing on knowledge to the new generation, is this a lot of it coming from like the Spotify mafia in a sense? Or what impact did that have on the ecosystem?

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a great question. I would love to do some sort of survey or study on it. But I think one example in my day to day job, like we are sponsoring a place called Founder's House. It is a coworking physical space for young founders that are building AI companies. And they, many of them have been to Y Combinator or spent time in San Francisco and then coming back. They're like, oh, we're so high on the vibe. We want to sit together also when we get back. So this coworking space is a fantastic place. And me and the other people on the Founder's House board have then invited the other kind of more senior founders. So we have had fireside chats with people that have built companies before. And I think that has been one really, really good kind of learning and sharing experiences sort of forum.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  And I think, you know, no one has said no. It's more like, when can I come? And many of them are busy, so it takes time, but everyone is super happy to get back. And some of the older ones have also been like, oh, wow, I wish I was starting my company now, where the technology is so incredibly, you know, fascinating and interesting. And sorry, I forgot your first question. What was it? How the?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Oh, I was saying, did the Spotify mafia have anything to do with it?

• 4:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, so of course we invited Daniel and he was, he's always incredibly inspiring. And I think when he is talking about his journey, what people tend to forget is that for many years and for a long time, we were just, like when I joined, we were sitting, you know, 10 people in a very small flat in the midst of Stockholm. And nothing pointed to that we would be, you know, a global household brand. So I think it humbles people to hear that, you know, we started out with kind of just an idea. And Daniel is very good at reminding people of that when he speaks to his journey. And yeah, for me, it was a full circle moment when he was kind of sharing his insights with that young generation of AI builders.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  When you look at companies like Legora and Lovable right now, because everyone always talks about, you know, the Nordic model of how countries are run and everything. And so something I was actually curious about is like, how much of Lovable's success is specifically tied back to kind of this Nordic model and way of living versus like just a really good company catching the AI wave at the right moment?

• 5:39Speaker 02

  I think probably both, right? So I lived my five years in New York City when I was there launching Spotify. Some of my reflections there was that, you know, people that were starting their own companies, they were so much knife against the throat. Because if this doesn't succeed, you know, I have no, you know, nothing to rely on. In Sweden, we have the social welfare systems. You can risk a lot and you can start a company. But sometimes people do it while studying, et cetera. And it feels like you have a bit more cautiony sort of situation. I don't know if that still holds true, but I do feel like people dare to take great risk. And I think Lovable, you know, super big, very bold ambition. Spotify, incredibly bold ambition to go up against those giants.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Skype, very bold ambition. Klarna, the same. So I think there's something about kind of daring greatly, dreaming big, being the underdog that has sort of been proven once or twice. And then I think that shapes how people think about going on about building their own businesses. This whole thing like go big or go home, I feel like resonated quite a lot with some of these young, talented founders.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I think I was talking to a Danish founder, actually. And we were talking about this system behind like the Scandinavian model. And we were talking specifically about how like, you know, companies here, it's like, well, you have to work really hard because you don't have healthcare. And, you know, and the safety net is like the floor, like you just hit the ground. And so we were talking about like, when you have a safety net, does that make you more ambitious? But it seems like a lot of founders now are kind of taking advantage of that, saying, well, actually, you know, I have all this support. I might as well go big or go home, you know?

• 7:18Speaker 02

  No, I think so, actually, because I'm a believer at least that, of course, it's good to have some sort of nerve and you need to be super invested when building a company, but not to the point where you feel like, oh, I'm not sure if I or my family will have health insurance. I think that's a very, very incredible stress to live with. You know, in Sweden, I feel like I'm marketing Sweden now, but in some way I guess I am. But, you know, we have, it's affordable with healthcare. Childcare, we also have solutions for that you don't have to pay a lot for. It's like a 130 euro per month for really, really good healthcare. Education is free, so it's a very good place to sort of grow a family. And I think if you can do that and feel like it's working,

• 8:01Speaker 02

  then it's of course easier to also pour into your company without feeling that you are jeopardizing the situation you have for your family. And I think that's probably different.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Where does a lot of the talent come from? Because I was specifically asking and thinking of like, I was just in London and I was covering a lot about how, I think someone said, they called it like the new Palo Alto in terms of like, how close all of these European capital cities are to each other. But I know also in the London ecosystem, they have all of these universities. You know, where it's like, you just go to Cambridge in 45 minutes and get like a really, like really smart person or something. And so when it comes to Stockholm too, like what is kind of the setup in terms of the talent pool?

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say one of the really good places to go and visit if you're here is Stockholm School of Economics, where they have this incubator where Klarna was founded and sort of incubated in Legora as well, Bøi as well. And I'm on the advisory board of that school and it's incredible to see that track record. I was kind of jokingly saying that, you know, investing into all of these companies would be a fairly healthy investment strategy. So I think that school has the most entrepreneurial density and legacy and history with it. And then of course we have KTH, which is the technological university, also based in the city with an amazing robotics division.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  We have, you know, Stockholm University that has a great law education, et cetera. So we have some really, really good places. But I also think, maybe I'm uncolored by my own experience, but also having worked at startups is probably the best crash course. So like Anton at Lovable, he used to work at Sana Labs, which is one of these breakout companies as well. So I think they also go and visit companies, see how it's done and then. You know, also get inspired to start their own companies. I think we also see a lot of people now kind of leaving Lovable because they also see all of these opportunities for companies that can be built with that technology. So talent hub wise, I would say like people that are, you know, have worked at Lovable and Agora

• 10:05Speaker 02

  are seen to be very entrepreneurial driven and keen to start their own companies.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  I was actually gonna ask, is there a Lovable mafia now? Like, is that the mafia taking over?

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it's very, very interesting and fun crowd that of course are in the midst of it. And I think, yeah, me and Sarah are planning an event and I'm doing this fireside chat with the people from Legora and Lovable. And I think they are very, you know, in the forefront of how to go about things, which is inspiring for other companies. And I think they also set the bar a bit high, which is great.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and especially when it comes to kind of taking on their US counterparts. I know one of the big themes of, speaking to like a lot of European investors and founders has been of like sovereignty. And so I was gonna ask, what are some of the conversations that are happening in the ecosystem right now? And is sovereignty and creating kind of your own technology that isn't so dependable upon the US, is that one of the big conversations?

• 11:03Speaker 02

  I would say it definitely is, yeah. In Europe and in Sweden, I think everybody has been kind of, you know, awakened in a way and therefore building with that perspective. I think from both ends, both from investors and sort of the industry and also builders.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  How far off is an ecosystem like Stockholm from having itself reinforcing, kind of having that ecosystem where you don't have to depend on US technology or big tech?

• 11:31Speaker 02

  I think we have a way to go. And I think we're always looking to the US. Most ambitious companies are always kind of planning for the US launch. I think we, you know, when it comes to growth round with capital, mostly we look into the US and US investors. So we have some, some work to do there. But I think everyone is incredibly excited about sort of strengthening our own position and building and being more aware of how to create that. So I think it's definitely kind of in the making.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was always another thing I ask founders in Europe. Everyone's always really bullish on their own ecosystems, but then I'm like, so where do you want to IPO? And they're always like, New York.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  And so. Jumping, yeah.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  So is that also kind of a bottleneck that the ecosystem is looking to kind of fix? I don't know if it's the same problem where it's like, I talked to a lot of British founders and they're always like, yeah, well, we're going to New York because we don't want to IPO on the London Stock Exchange. Is it kind of the same sort of growth trajectory in Stockholm?

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it will be interesting to see some of these young companies, where they go for their RBOs, but I would not be surprised if it's also New York. And I think looking at both Spotify and Clorona, that's what they did. So it feels like it has sort of become a bit of a standard for the ambitious ones. So I think there we also have some work to do.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  What are some of the most exciting things happening?

• 12:52Speaker 02

  I mean, the new generation founders, they feel younger than before and they feel very kind of well-educated upon the space and incredibly ambitious and also more fast-moving because of everything that's available. Like, you know, when I joined Spotify, we only had the amount of hours and the number of hands that could, you know, build code and then we had a product. Now, you know, it's so different. You can build products and create companies in much shorter space of time. So the speed and also ambition level, I would say.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Is it good or bad that these founders are getting younger? Like, do you have like a wave of like college dropouts now? Or has it always been a thing in Stockholm? Like, is it good or bad that these kids are so young?

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is a great question. I think it depends on who you are as an investor. Me personally, I love working with really young people. But of course, there is a, I think, golden combination of sort of experience from, you know, a second time founder and that ambition level from the young ones. So like pairing one of the young ones with a more experienced one, I think would be ideal because, I mean, I met founders that are like 16 years old and dropouts and, and you know, then you're really young. I think it is good with experience.

• 14:07Speaker 00

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• 14:44Speaker 01

  How much US capital has been flooding into Stockholm as of recently?

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Oh, that would be interesting to find that number. To me, it feels like quite a lot. We have a lot of American funds that are flying in on a regular basis and sort of giving term sheets without proper DD, et cetera. So it feels like a very active and vibrant market.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  You said without proper due diligence. They're bringing the Silicon Valley method over there.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think for some of the big ones, they can do, you know, some of these checks without having, you know, an IC, et cetera. So that is of course a bit different from how most other funds here operate. So it can be a bit like, ah, that's interesting. But, you know, I think it's also just a testament to that we have a lot of great people building companies here. So in the end, I'm sort of glad that it's happening because, you know, it's just a sign that we're doing something right. And I think all investment firms have different strategies that, you know, they have found working best for them.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  That is interesting, though. Like, has that brought any culture clashes between like, you know, the Nordic investors and the US investors? Or like, do founders, are they like, oh, cool, this investor's not doing a lot of DD? Like, that's great. Or are they kind of like, hey, maybe they should ask a little bit more questions? Like, is there kind of like some tension?

• 16:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you have some founders that are like, oh, I don't want to take money from that fund because I feel unsafe if they don't know me properly. So I think that is a more mature way of looking at it. Then we have some founders that are like, oh, but this is amazing brand and, you know, I'm just gonna take the money easy. But then if they don't succeed, you know, you're not a important player in that big funds portfolio. So then you fairly quickly get sort of not getting the attention that you want. So we normally talk about stage specific and that it's really good to have someone who understands where you are at in the early stages rather than just taking easy money.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  And have you been seeing like a wave of US investors coming in and saying, well, if you want this capital, you have to come with us back to the US? I was talking to a lot of British founders and they were saying that American investors were, they were coming in offering money, but only if they moved.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Interesting. Yeah, I've heard, you know, investors from the US coming saying like, yeah, yeah, great, you can build here. But then at some point, you need to come to the US because it feels like Europe alone is not a big enough market for that investment. So yeah, pushing them a bit to kind of coming to the US sooner or later is something I hear often. And then I would also say many founders here really kind of crave that because the speed and the excitement and also the talent that is, you know, gathering in San Francisco or New York is also exciting for them. So many, many founders here that I meet are not thinking about it as a bad thing. But of course, it depends on where they are in their lives and if they want to move and can move.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Is the issue of growth capital like a European venture-wide problem? Or is that, like, does Stockholm also have that issue that I know a lot of other Euroventure markets have?

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's something we've been talking about for a long time and we have done initiatives and, you know, it is better than before. But I do think that most companies in the later stages, they look to the US funds and I would love for that to change. But it feels like it's been a while where we have kind of talked about it. So we need some more growth investors in Europe.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  This is, it's so funny because I feel like I always ask, I'm like, how do you just get more growth capital? Like, where does that come from? Is that something, is it like a government scheme? Or is it just like, you need more like family offices or like the old generation of money kind of taking more risks? Like, where does that come from?

• 18:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's probably a combination, right? But I would think that it's more institutional money that wants to see investors also doing the later stage rounds, like the growth rounds, rather than maybe family and such offices because they are normally not, I mean, I think it's better with the institutional ones. So if the existing LP or investor basis would deploy more money and funds would set up growth funds, I think that is not a bad idea and especially not with the generation of companies that we see coming out of Europe now. I think it's a fantastic opportunity to invest in those and to try and keep them in Europe.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  How is your role as an, or how has your job as an investor changed over the past few years in terms of what founders are looking for, what founders are like, helping them expand? How has like your job description changed, seeing like the ups and downs of the market?

• 19:27Speaker 02

  I mean, I think in one way, a lot has shifted and changed, but in one way, it remains kind of the same. And I think our job is to identify and find, you know, the founders that are incredible and that are standing out in different ways. And then once we have done the investment, it is to support them in the best possible way ever, which could be through multiple things. It could be kind of hosting a brand workshop or helping them to. Roll out in Germany and help them with meaningful intros or help them prep a launch in the US, et cetera. So we are very hands-on in the way we work with founders. But one thing that I've seen, which I actually like, is that founders are more aware now of kind of what they can expect.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  And that money itself is kind of generic. So it's more about like, all right, but how can you help me? And I think that question comes back to the kind of learning experience being shared. So nowadays I meet a lot of founders. They're like, how can you contribute to my growth journey? They are asking me that in the meeting, which I think is incredible because that means that they have read up and that they're smart and not just taking money that is, you know, a check, but also taking strategically and smart money. And at Cherry, all of us have been part of building companies before. So that's something that we take great pride in that, you know, we know how it is. We've been in your shoes. We have all been building companies. So therefore we are in a good place to help you in a meaningful way and not just write a check and then say, see you at the IPO.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's actually so interesting now that they're like, what can you do for me? What do you mean? It's like a very important question that founders should ask, but I imagine that's also kind of funny.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  It is so funny. And, and maybe I can mention this. We had an event lately and I was interviewing Max at Legora, who is in our portfolio. And he is so funny and fantastic and outspoken. So he was sharing on stage and the audience was founders. And he was like, yeah, I have this, you know, leaderboard where I'm measuring all of my investors on behalf of how many intros they have made. And then I'm rating them. And he said, and when they're not in top and I send them the results, it's so exciting because they, you know, they don't want to be the last one. So I think that's a funny example of how good founders can be at understanding how investors can bring value. And I, I think he's doing exactly the right thing. That's how he should work with his investors.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Honestly, that is so important. I feel like there was a time period, at least like when I was on Twitter and I was like, all these like VCs were just popping up randomly. Like, I think it was like 2020, 2021. And like founders were entering these crazy deals. And I'm just like, is anyone asking the investors what they're doing? Like, what's going on with them, actually?

• 22:08Speaker 02

  Oh, I love it. I think it's a very relevant, relevant question.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Something I actually did want to talk about are kind of the big conference. I've been trying to get the SLUSH for years. Like I've been trying to get, I'm trying to go to one of those little sauna parties. But I know there's also like Nordic Tech Week, Tech Barbecue is this week. How like, can you talk a little bit about the importance of those conferences? Especially when it comes to building and reinforcing the ecosystem? So talent is built and stays in the Nordic ecosystem.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I'm super impressed with SLUSH, especially since it's been around for so long. And it's definitely like a grassroots level, you know, organization in a way. I think, you know, they have 2,000 volunteers, like young people working for free that week. So the whole city is just vibrant with excitement and people who are hungry to learn and meet new people. And yes, you should definitely come and I'm very happy to help you. I have been there for 10 years now. And I think if it's one conference in the Nordic region you should focus on. If you're new here, then it's SLUSH because it has this incredible global audience and always super relevant speakers and always also gearing towards the entrepreneurs, which I like.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  But then I would also say here, you know, Tech Barbecue this week is also incredibly well organized and super fun and lots of great speakers. And Nordic Tech Week and Tech Arena here in Sweden have been massive last years. And I think it's also testament to like how, how the society is interested in this field. Like now it feels like so many more people want to attend and want to go, which is fun because, you know, when SLUSH started out, you know, not that many people were interested or aware even.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, does it seem like being a founder and having a startup and being an entrepreneur is slowly becoming part of like the myth and the legends of, of I guess, like the Stockholm ecosystem? I say it in the sense of like, you know, in the US we have like this, this myth of a founder. It's like the Mark Zuckerberg type, you drop out and everyone wants to do that. And so so many people are now so interested in this founder and entrepreneurial lifecycle. You see it all over social media. Is that kind of like a cultural societal thing now where it's like, you know, people really, really want to have this life now? Or is it still kind of like, you know, oh yeah, you know, I'm interested in the tech and the conference and I want to go? Or are people, do you see a lot more, I don't know, people saying,

• 24:35Speaker 01

  I want this whole lifestyle and everything that it encompasses?

• 24:39Speaker 02

  I think so. At least if I look back and kind of compare it to how it was when I joined Spotify, which is, you know, many years now. But then the word startup wasn't used, founder as a, you know, theme wasn't really used. And people were excited to go and work in banking or consulting. That was like the cool thing to do. Now I think a lot of people optimize for creating stuff and optimizing for both sort of freedom and probably wealth. So I think we have had so many people showing that, you know, I did this, even though I'm a dropout, even though I, you know, know nothing from before. So I think that inspires people.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  But I also do think that a lot of people understand how an all-consuming experience it is. So I think it's, it's not for everyone. And that I think is something that people know, most people know. But for the ones that are super dedicated, you know, it's definitely one of the most fun things you can do to build something together with other people. And I think now with AI available, you have more opportunities than ever to do so.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, something I'm actually really interested to ask you is, what do you think will be the thing that the Stockholm ecosystem is known for? Like what is going to be the winning thing that comes out of it?

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Oh, I think it's probably like number of really big companies that are solving hard problems. Density of talent, inspiring others, fueling back into the ecosystem, meaning that a lot of people that have been at these companies, very few of them go back and like do nothing. Most of them are like, oh, I want to support. I want to help here. I want to angel invest. Like they want to put their hard-earned experiences to use. And I think that's one of the components that makes it so exciting. So yeah, I think it's some sort of shared success with a number of that are called.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Oh, a shared success? It wouldn't be like, you, you would say like maybe deep tech would be the thing where it's like, oh, everyone in Europe knows us for, for this thing. You think it's going to be more of a mixed combination of things? Maybe a balance, a balance of things?

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe. But I mentioned to someone the other day, I, I was visiting this corking place down in a harbor called Magazine X, which is builders that are doing physical AI. And then I was blown away. You were bumping into like a robot dog and then another manufacturing robot, et cetera. And I was like, wow, all of this amazing talent that are building things. So yeah, then I was like, oh, maybe it's robotics that we'll be known for. But with the background and having seen Skype, Spotify, Klarna, et cetera, I think probably it's a combination. And maybe the common denominator is that daring to build big from day one, maybe sort of challenging status quo is the thing.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  I think we have been good at design and user design and UI aesthetics. But who knows, maybe it will be robotics or deep tech. TBD.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Robotics, the dancing robots. They're always so funny to watch. I feel so bad because it's like someone put so much time into it for like these things to just collapse. So funny. I was talking to a researcher and they were like, maybe robots are just entertainment. And I was like, of course, like they're used in manufacturing, but those like dancing, like what is like, what is that being used for?

• 28:03Speaker 02

  I agree, yeah.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Maybe Sweden will figure it out. Sweden's going to figure it out.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Let's hope.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  We're almost out of time, but before we wrap up, is there a place where our listeners can connect with you?

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure, on LinkedIn.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  LinkedIn, no, are you on X?

• 28:18Speaker 02

  I am, but I'm not so active nowadays. But yes, X as well.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  X, LinkedIn, you don't need to be on X, it's crazy.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  It is, it used to be good when there was Twitter, but now it's a bit like, oh, much.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Is there, is there like a Stockholm X, like how there is? Or is it just like mixed in with the rest of Silicon Valley Twitter?

• 28:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it is. It's a bit of a mix. So I think, no, I, I really like, I try and be available like physically at Founder's House and SSE Business Lab for the people in Stockholm. Otherwise I think LinkedIn and X is best.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  And Founder's House, that's like a hacker house type of concept?

• 28:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  That's really fun. That's exciting. There's, there seems like, has there been a lot more of those popping up over, all over Europe, basically?

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, Founder's House also have a Founder's House in Helsinki. So it feels like the, yeah, the interest is definitely there. And I think it's kind of basic, but still brilliant. It is ambitious and talented people that want to sit together in order to exchange knowledge because the world moves so fast. So the need for that is greater than before.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Is there anything that makes like these Founder Houses different than the ones in America? Like, is there more, are you guys doing the like the seven days a week, 24 hours a day? Or is there, is there like a difference?

• 29:33Speaker 02

  I don't know, since I haven't visited them in the US lately. But I think, no, there's no, nothing forced. It's just pure kind of here is the arena for everyone. And then I think they, they are there 24/7, seven days a week, but more because pure joy and excitement than anything else. It's more fun when you build stuff together with people and it's so much fun to learn from other people. So if you can put those two elements at play, I think then you have a good concept.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  And yeah, thank you so much again for joining us. I think that's a perfect place to wrap. And to our listeners, you can find me on Instagram. Please follow me on Instagram. I'm once again begging for followers. But I'm also, I'm, I'm also at LinkedIn, at Dominic Madori. Thank you so much again and see you at Tech Barbecue.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Thank you so much. Yes, I look forward to it.

• 30:28Rebecca Bellan?

  Equity is hosted by TechCrunch senior reporters and produced by Teresa Locan Solo with editing by Cal. Subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts and find out what's next at techcrunch.com/events. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk to you next time.