Episodes we love: The Scream

If you typed “inauguration” into your web browser anytime between 2017 and 2020, you likely saw an image of a person in a neon green jacket, black winter hat and glasses screaming “Nooooooooooo!” That person was Jess, who was in Washington D. C. on January 20, 2017 to protest the inauguration of President Donald Trump. Jess told their story to Endless Thread in 2021. This week, we're revisiting that episode in advance of Donald Trump's second inauguration, just as the Internet has been resurfacing this poignant — and, for some, highly relatable — meme.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Support for this podcast comes from Is Business Broken?, a podcast from the Marotra Institute at BU Questram School of Business. A recent episode explores how AI is reshaping our schools. Stick around until the end of this podcast to preview the episode.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Support for Endless Thread comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at mathworks.com.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  Life is all about making decisions. Sometimes you make questionable ones, like buying a new TV that's too big for the wall because the electronics store employee was a little too good at their job. Then sometimes you make great ones, like protecting your home and auto with Progressive. You get customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states. WBUR Podcasts, Boston.

• 1:13Amory Sivertson?

  Ben?

• 1:14Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yes?

• 1:16Amory Sivertson?

  Let's travel back in time, shall we?

• 1:18Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay.

• 1:21Amory Sivertson?

  I should come to expect...

• 1:30Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, man, that was gross. Are you okay? You okay?

• 1:35Amory Sivertson?

  Wow, you really, you really delivered on that. I was not expecting, but I have to give that up to you.

• 1:41Ben Brock Johnson?

  Slow clap. The more you wanted me to stop.

• 1:45Amory Sivertson?

  You just leaned in harder.

• 1:46Ben Brock Johnson?

  I leaned into it. I leaned into it.

• 1:48Amory Sivertson?

  I'm like, give me 50%. And you're like, 200%?

• 1:51Ben Brock Johnson?

  How about 200?

• 1:53Amory Sivertson?

  Anyway, we're going back to the year 2021, or we just did go back to the year 2021, since you fired up all those beeps and boops and...

• 2:01Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 2:02Amory Sivertson?

  What, what were we doing in the year 2021?

• 2:07Amory Sivertson?

  On Endless Thread, I'll give you that hint.

• 2:09Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, okay. I was gonna say, like, we were like, super psyched that there was a vaccine, maybe?

• 2:15Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 2:16Ben Brock Johnson?

  And we were like, oh, my God, I can hang out with people again.

• 2:19Amory Sivertson?

  Right.

• 2:19Ben Brock Johnson?

  Which was good for me. I love to hang out with people.

• 2:22Amory Sivertson?

  I know. You were so starved.

• 2:23Ben Brock Johnson?

  I was starved. But on Endless Thread in 2021, memes? We were doing some memes?

• 2:30Amory Sivertson?

  That was the year of the meme on Endless Thread. And one of our meme episodes featured a person at an incredibly well-attended national event that took place in January of 2017.

• 2:43Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:44Amory Sivertson?

  And this is an event that we thought was going to be a one-time thing. You picking up what I'm putting down?

• 2:52Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yes. The screaming, crying liberal meme and Jess.

• 2:57Amory Sivertson?

  Yes.

• 2:58Ben Brock Johnson?

  And I feel like, it's interesting, because I feel like since the second Trump election, I've seen that meme a lot more.

• 3:08Amory Sivertson?

  This is true. So, yes, we're talking about the presidential inauguration of Donald J. Trump the first time. Fast forward to now, you're seeing that meme a lot, because we are back in a place that we probably didn't think we would ever be again when we made that episode in 2021, especially given that Trump had just lost his reelection bid the year before.

• 3:30Ben Brock Johnson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:32Amory Sivertson?

  But now, this episode is suddenly all too relevant, and, for some folks, all too real.

• 3:39Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yep.

• 3:39Amory Sivertson?

  Once again.

• 3:40Ben Brock Johnson?

  And so, in advance of Trump's second inauguration, we thought we'd listen back to that episode together. Enjoy, or scream, whichever feels right to you.

• 4:01Speaker 05

  It felt like, it felt like being on the Titanic and being like, I know the iceberg's coming, I know the iceberg's coming, and, oh, my God, one, two, three, and we're hitting it.

• 4:20Ben Brock Johnson?

  We are talking to a person we're calling Jess outside on a spring day in March of 2021. But they're telling us about a different day, inauguration day, January 20th, 2017.

• 4:33Speaker 05

  And it was like 5:00 AM or something crazy, which to me is just like, that's the ass crackadon. Nobody needs to get up that early.

• 4:40Ben Brock Johnson?

  Jess and a friend had traveled hundreds of miles to Washington DC specifically for this day.

• 4:46Speaker 05

  So we get to DC, like, nobody's around. The streets are empty, it's quiet. I have my camera with me because when I go to events, I love to take pictures. It's like, I think it's actually one way that as an introvert, I can like show up somewhere. That's what I've always done when I've gone to protests is taking pictures.

• 5:07Amory Sivertson?

  There was a designated area just off Pennsylvania Avenue for protesters.

• 5:12Speaker 05

  And my friend was like, bundle the fuck up because we're gonna be out there all day. And there's no place to go to warm up. So I had on these like two-layer like of coats and like all this stuff. And it was just bright green coat.

• 5:25Ben Brock Johnson?

  And by bright green, Jess really means neon lime green, almost like a construction worker's uniform with those reflective stripes running along the arms. When you put on a jacket in the morning, it's rare that you think, this will probably be immortalized by the internet forever.

• 5:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, you really couldn't miss me. You couldn't miss me with that coat on. Turns out, that color will forever haunt me.

• 5:56Amory Sivertson?

  It was approaching noon, and the street was packed with sign-toting Trump supporters, protesters, and the sounds of pomp and circumstance.

• 6:05Speaker 05

  And they had these huge speakers all the way up and down the street. I mean, it felt like we were in frickin' like Nazi Germany or something. It was like, all of a sudden, it was just this sound of these voices coming over everything. It was like, you will now listen to us because we are in control. It's like, oh, God.

• 6:22Amory Sivertson?

  But as the actual inauguration proceedings began, something started brewing within Jess.

• 6:28Speaker 05

  I don't even remember honestly what it was, but it was somebody speaking. I was just like, we're so screwed. This is so bad. We're in so deep.

• 6:38Ben Brock Johnson?

  Missouri Senator Roy Blunt kicked off the swearing in ceremony.

• 6:42Speaker 06

  Everyone, please stand.

• 6:43Speaker 05

  For the inauguration, blah, blah, blah. And I just, in my head, I was like, oh, hell, no. I was like, if there's one thing I can do right now is not stand for this motherfucker. Right, so I sat down.

• 6:54Speaker 07

  I first noticed Jess just a few seconds before Donald Trump was about to take the oath of office.

• 6:59Amory Sivertson?

  This is Martin Geisler.

• 7:00Speaker 07

  And I work for, as a presenter for the BBC. But back at the time of Donald Trump's inauguration, I was a foreign correspondent for ITV News, one of the main TV network news programs in the UK.

• 7:13Amory Sivertson?

  Martin and his cameraman had been traveling around the US for three or four weeks straight in the lead up to inauguration day, documenting people's hopes and fears for a Trump presidency. And now, the day and the moment were here, and the emotions for some were high.

• 7:30Speaker 06

  Please raise your right hand and repeat after me.

• 7:34Speaker 07

  I looked about five feet to my right, and there was somebody on their knees on the ground with their head in their hands.

• 7:42Speaker 05

  Bearing witness to this disastrous moment was like all I could do. So I just sat there with my eyes closed.

• 7:51Speaker 06

  And will, to the best of my ability.

• 7:53Speaker 07

  And it was pretty clear this person was going to give a reaction. So I tapped my cameraman on the shoulder and just pointed down and said, look, film them.

• 8:02Speaker 06

  The Constitution of the United States. So help me God.

• 8:06Speaker 07

  And as soon as the oath of office finished, the commentator said,

• 8:11Speaker 06

  Donald J. Trump is now President of the United States.

• 8:13Speaker 07

  And that was the moment.

• 8:19Speaker 05

  And I just, it just came out.

• 8:23Speaker 07

  That was the moment Jess let loose, this kind of primal scream.

• 8:28Speaker 05

  That was pretty much what happened was I screamed and they caught me. Shit.

• 8:43Ben Brock Johnson?

  I'm Ben Brock Johnson.

• 8:44Amory Sivertson?

  I'm Amory Sivertson, and this is Endless Thread.

• 8:47Ben Brock Johnson?

  We're coming to you from WBUR, Boston's NPR station. And right now, we're talking about memes.

• 8:53Amory Sivertson?

  Their cultural, historical, and personal impact.

• 8:58Speaker 05

  I was like, just literally wanted to disappear.

• 9:01Ben Brock Johnson?

  Today?

• 9:02Amory Sivertson?

  The scream.

• 9:14Amory Sivertson?

  March 25, 2021. We meet Jess, who's telling their story for the first time to us about the scream that memed them four years ago.

• 9:25Ben Brock Johnson?

  Jess shows up on this day in a Black Lives Matter hoodie. Their hot pink streaked hair coiffed up into one side. They're in their 40s, but they have a kind of punk rock vibe and youthful energy. They seem comfortable, but the nerves are definitely there.

• 9:40Speaker 05

  Do you have like, sort of a, a plan of like, starting with questions and like, kind of leading the conversation?

• 9:47Amory Sivertson?

  Yes.

• 9:48Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 9:49Amory Sivertson?

  Yes, we do.

• 9:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, figured.

• 9:52Amory Sivertson?

  Whether we stick to them or not is another story.

• 9:54Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 9:55Ben Brock Johnson?

  Where we meet is the furthest thing from Pennsylvania Avenue on inauguration day. We're in a woodsy, remote spot, not far from where Jess lives.

• 10:04Amory Sivertson?

  Jess is an artist living in the Northeast. And there's a reason we're being vague about their actual name and personal details. Jess has basically been in hiding since 2017, in that moment at President Donald Trump's inauguration that led to their screaming face being plastered across the internet.

• 10:22Ben Brock Johnson?

  Unsurprisingly, perhaps, Jess is not a big fan of memes.

• 10:27Amory Sivertson?

  Surprisingly, it's not just because they became one.

• 10:30Speaker 05

  Because I didn't grow up with like, TV and stuff, I always missed the references. And, and actually, so that's been a big thing with me with memes, is like, I don't get it.

• 10:39Amory Sivertson?

  But even when Jess doesn't get the joke of a particular meme, which, Jess, I feel you, they get what's fundamentally happening.

• 10:46Speaker 05

  So as an artist, I can appreciate taking imagery and sharing it and changing it and playing off of each other, having the images play off each other.

• 10:55Ben Brock Johnson?

  Which is how content gets memified. Remember our group of meme experts who were calling our meme chorus? They talked a good bit about this.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  They take off in a way that becomes replicable. So we are not talking about the same image that's shared over and over. Great memes invite you to remix them.

• 11:13Speaker 05

  And then somebody can go and say, oh, I can make my own version. I know how to actually participate in this meme.

• 11:21Speaker 05

  I guess that a lot of them feel really lowbrow and I don't kind of appreciate the crudeness of the quality.

• 11:29Ben Brock Johnson?

  Being in on the joke is one thing, being the joke is another. A particular feeling, particular meme subjects know all about. And Jess was about to learn too. But first, they were mulling the rise of Donald Trump and what to do about it.

• 11:46Speaker 05

  As a queer person, as a person in a female body, as a person in white skin, as an artist, I have wondered and struggled with like, how do I join in? How do I make a difference? Because I grew up with a lot of like political activism around me. And I really thought for a long time that I needed to do some kind of like soapbox like, and now I think, you know, don't you realize? Like that kind of energy of like, don't you realize? And I was like, you know what? It's just not me. I just, I just don't like that. It just feels icky. It feels preachy.

• 12:17Ben Brock Johnson?

  So when a friend of Jess's asked if they wanted to go to DC to protest on inauguration day.

• 12:23Speaker 05

  And I was like, no.

• 12:26Speaker 05

  Let me think about that for a second. No.

• 12:27Amory Sivertson?

  But then they thought about why they would go.

• 12:30Speaker 05

  There are so many things wrong right now. Black people being shot. That I'll go for. Like misogyny, climate change, like just like all these things that were like, okay, you know what? I don't really want to, but if I don't bring my voice and stand up for what I believe in, like that is the ultimate like lazy white privilege.

• 12:58Amory Sivertson?

  So back to that moment on inauguration day.

• 13:00Ben Brock Johnson?

  There's a sea of people standing in the protest area, listening to Donald Trump get sworn in as the 45th President of the United States. But Jess is sitting, cross-legged on the cold, hard pavement in their neon green jacket.

• 13:16Speaker 05

  Like, if I can do something right now, it's not stand. And so I just sat down.

• 13:20Speaker 06

  Please raise your right hand and repeat after me. I, Donald John Trump, do solemnly swear.

• 13:27Speaker 07

  I, Donald John Trump, do solemnly swear.

• 13:31Speaker 05

  And so just sitting there, it just came from that void, that wellspring of agony of the millennia of people being wronged and nobody being there to say no. Or them saying no and nobody listening, right? I'm like, here's this guy that's literally like grabbing by the pussy. And they say no, and he laughs. Like, that's who?

• 13:55Speaker 06

  Preserve, protect, and defend.

• 13:58Speaker 07

  Preserve, protect, and defend.

• 14:00Speaker 06

  The Constitution of the United States.

• 14:02Speaker 07

  The Constitution of the United States.

• 14:05Speaker 06

  So help me God.

• 14:06Speaker 07

  So help me God.

• 14:07Speaker 06

  Congratulations, Mr. President.

• 14:14Speaker 05

  No. Uh-uh. No, no, no, no, no, no.

• 14:19Ben Brock Johnson?

  But in this very moment on inauguration day 2017, this no that was bubbling up within Jess came out differently.

• 14:31Ben Brock Johnson?

  And then it came out again.

• 14:37Amory Sivertson?

  And again.

• 14:42Speaker 05

  It felt like the earth opened up and sent this no through me that was just like, this needs to be heard at this point on this planet. People told me later that it was like 12 of them, I think, in a row.

• 15:03Ben Brock Johnson?

  By the third "no" that came pouring out of Jess, they had their arms straight out to their sides, fingers spread as if they were giving a command.

• 15:12Speaker 05

  I felt like it was some kind of spell that I was casting. It was like, I am going to just like push out this energy of "no" and be like, "You don't get to do this anymore."

• 15:24Amory Sivertson?

  But it was just the beginning of Trump's presidency and of something else that Jess never saw coming.

• 15:31Speaker 05

  So what happened was I opened my eyes and there was what I experienced as a sea of video cameras.

• 15:42Ben Brock Johnson?

  What happened next would have Jess going into hiding, in a way, for the next four years.

• 15:49Amory Sivertson?

  More in a minute.

• 15:59Speaker 00

  Support for this podcast comes from Is Business Broken, a podcast from the Marotra Institute at BU Questram School of Business. How should employers measure real skills in the age of AI?

• 16:12Ben Brock Johnson?

  Instead of observing the final artifact, instead of observing the final essay or the final program, observe the entire process of creation.

• 16:21Speaker 00

  Follow Is Business Broken wherever you get your podcasts and stick around until the end of this podcast for a preview of a recent episode on rethinking academic and job assessment when AI can do the work.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Life is all about making decisions. Sometimes you make questionable ones, like buying a new TV that's too big for the wall because the electronics store employee was a little too good at their job. Then sometimes you make great ones, like protecting your home and auto with Progressive. You get customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers, not available in all states.

• 17:09Ben Brock Johnson?

  ITV news reporter Martin Geisler was among the scrum of cameras capturing Jess and their scream. He had been watching in awe.

• 17:19Speaker 07

  It was a really profound moment because it wasn't manufactured. It came from somewhere right within this person's soul. And when you see something like that happen, you kind of take a step back and let it sink in.

• 17:32Amory Sivertson?

  But not too far of a step back, because Martin and his cameraman were rolling on the whole thing. Jess on the ground, shaking their head, face red, mouth fully agape as they push out these nose through tears. It is arresting. And if it weren't so out loud and in a crowd, you'd think you were watching the most private moment of someone's life.

• 17:55Ben Brock Johnson?

  And right after that arresting moment happened, Martin and his producer interviewed Jess. Briefly. Here's what came out.

• 18:03Speaker 05

  I am so sorry to my world. I am so sorry to my world. This is not what we want.

• 18:10Speaker 06

  We will face challenges.

• 18:13Speaker 05

  There's so much potential.

• 18:15Speaker 06

  We will conquer the potions, but we will get the job done.

• 18:18Speaker 05

  For beauty and for devastation. In this one moment, it's almost incomprehensible that they can exist right now. So...

• 18:27Speaker 06

  And we are grateful.

• 18:28Speaker 05

  So close.

• 18:43Amory Sivertson?

  Imagine having a moment like this. Raw, unfiltered, messy emotion pouring out of you, to the extent that you're not sure you're even stringing sentences together. We've all had these moments. And if we're lucky, they happen in the arms of a loved one, or alone in the shower, or basically anywhere other than in public and on camera at arguably the biggest event in the world that day.

• 19:08Ben Brock Johnson?

  When video producers are in the field, they often get permission from their subjects to use the footage. And by the time Martin's producer approached to ask if they could use the footage, Jess was drained and dazed and didn't think much of it. They didn't know what ITV was, anyway.

• 19:26Speaker 05

  So I just was like, sure, whatever, use it. Really not thinking that through, like what that might mean.

• 19:34Ben Brock Johnson?

  What it meant in this case is that Jess's scream was going up online for anyone to find.

• 19:40Speaker 07

  I can't remember whether I tweeted it. I think I probably did.

• 19:44Amory Sivertson?

  And almost immediately, people found it.

• 19:47Speaker 07

  We went back to the office and started the edit to put the film together for that night's news. And I think the producer came up at some point during that and said, look, have you seen this? It's going crazy.

• 19:59Speaker 05

  I get this text from somebody that I didn't know super well, you know, an acquaintance. Oh, were you in Washington at the protest? Were you wearing a green coat? And I was thinking, oh, man, no way, he's here. He saw me. And I wrote back, yeah, yeah, were you here? And he didn't write back. And I was just kind of like, OK, whatever. And then somebody else, again, that I don't know super well, but that I know, texted me, this was even later that same night, and was like, do you know that, like, you're, like, online? And I was like, what are you talking about? And she's like, yeah, like, your video, the video of you. And I was like, gah. And it just, um, it just made me feel sick.

• 20:51Ben Brock Johnson?

  It was pretty late at this point. Jess was staying at their friend's house in DC, and their friend was already asleep. But Jess was starting to panic. So they went downstairs to where their friend's mom was watching TV.

• 21:02Speaker 05

  And I walk in and I'm like, I need, like, can I talk to you? And, you know, she is somebody that had done plenty of protests in her day and whatever. And she was like, well, you know, it's not like it's going to be on the Washington Post. You don't need to worry.

• 21:15Amory Sivertson?

  That is some quaint consolation right there. Although, the friend's mom was right. It wasn't the Washington Post Jess needed to worry about. It was the World Wide Web. Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, real news sites, fake news sites. The scream was spreading.

• 21:32Ben Brock Johnson?

  The next day, Jess was at the Women's March, their green jacket back on, among a mess of pink hats, when they heard from another friend.

• 21:40Speaker 05

  And she's like, already, over 5 million people have viewed it. And my brain is just like, like, I can't comprehend that number. What does that even mean? 5 million people have already viewed it? And what have they viewed?

• 21:54Ben Brock Johnson?

  Jess described the feeling of being in a coma when they screamed "no." So, recollection that it happened, maybe, but they certainly hadn't seen it. But by then, millions of other people had.

• 22:07Speaker 07

  It was the moment of the day, of a massive day. And it summed up for me what a huge chunk of America was feeling that day. So, I'm not surprised it went viral.

• 22:19Ben Brock Johnson?

  From virality, it jumped into full-blown meme-hood. People made it their own, adding fake captions for the scream in the comments section, things like, "Vegans when they find out they are made of meat."

• 22:32Amory Sivertson?

  And when people from Britain realized that websites use cookies instead of biscuits.

• 22:37Ben Brock Johnson?

  And "lactose intolerant people when they realize they live in the Milky Way." A lot of this stuff is, you have to admit, kind of funny. But when your particular meme is political, people use you for their own ridicule, which can feel different from the other kinds of meme jokes.

• 22:54Amory Sivertson?

  Some Trump supporters were quick to chalk Jess's reaction up to, quote, "liberal fragility", including this YouTuber, who added some jazzy piano and wintry clip art to the original video. Cheer up, snowflake. Everything's gonna be all right. Brought to you by...

• 23:13Ben Brock Johnson?

  ...by people who are tired of your bullshit.

• 23:20Ben Brock Johnson?

  Traveling even further and faster, perhaps, were the gifs and the screenshots. Screamshots of the epic no.

• 23:28Speaker 05

  You would look up inauguration and you'd see pictures of Trump and you'd see me screaming. Like, that would be what would come up. And that blew my mind.

• 23:37Amory Sivertson?

  People made drawings of Jess's face. They photoshopped a MAGA hat on their head. Others showed Trump embracing Jess, or worse, from behind. There are endless iterations, many of them messed up, cruel.

• 23:50Ben Brock Johnson?

  Jess says they had the classic car crash reaction to the onslaught of online response. You want to look away, you should look away.

• 23:59Speaker 05

  But I couldn't stop looking. It was like, oh my god, there's another meme. And I'd read all the comments and it would just be like this vibe. I mean, some of the stuff I like, I literally won't even repeat. It's so triggering. And I was like, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Like, there you go. You just proved why I said all that.

• 24:15Ben Brock Johnson?

  Jess didn't say much more about this feeling of being glued to watching how something they did was being twisted, weaponized, ridiculed exponentially as it flew around the internet. Except, they said, "It's really awful what people will say when making you into a meme."

• 24:34Amory Sivertson?

  There is one iteration, though, that Jess has actually come to appreciate. And fortunately, it's the one that rose to the top to give the meme its official name in the online meme encyclopedia: Know Your Meme.

• 24:46Speaker 05

  Luke Crywalker.

• 24:51Ben Brock Johnson?

  If you have recently resurfaced from being under an actual rock since, say, 1980, boy, do we have a doozy of a Star Wars spoiler for you.

• 25:00Speaker 05

  There's the scene where Luke finds out that Darth Vader's his dad. And he screams "no" in this, like, way. That's the way I scream "no."

• 25:20Amory Sivertson?

  So of course, someone made a mashup of the two.

• 25:23Speaker 06

  I am the father.

• 25:29Speaker 05

  And I was like, that's just freaking brilliant. I mean, it's funny, right? Because it's like, totally like, that is so Trump. It's like Darth Vader, like, no! It cannot be my dad. It cannot be my president.

• 25:46Ben Brock Johnson?

  Jess also delighted in a more subtle aspect of the Luke Crywalker moniker.

• 25:51Speaker 05

  They couldn't tell my gender. And I am genderqueer. Like, I'm non-binary. And so I loved that when people were like, that person, or just even like, thinking they were like, being mean by being like, was it a girl? I don't know. It's like, haha, yeah, you don't know, do you?

• 26:07Amory Sivertson?

  A gender Jedi mind trick. But as any true Star Wars fan knows, Luke's weakness is fear.

• 26:14Speaker 06

  Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

• 26:23Speaker 05

  I think one of the most painful things about how it affected me personally was I didn't feel safe putting my name out there anymore.

• 26:31Amory Sivertson?

  It's hard to describe what it feels like to be the subject of a meme that blows up. People immediately start trying to figure out who you are.

• 26:39Ben Brock Johnson?

  And where you are.

• 26:41Speaker 06

  So if anybody knows where that inauguration screamer is, please post it below.

• 26:52Ben Brock Johnson?

  Depending on their motivations, you might not want people to find you, but people were trying to find Jess. Doc's Jess. Maybe do worse than had already been done.

• 27:04Speaker 05

  Friends were like, take yourself off social media. Like, people are going to come find you and want to harass you and potentially hurt you. Like, that was the honest, like, response I was getting from people that knew me and knew this was happening.

• 27:20Ben Brock Johnson?

  But beyond the fear of any physical harm, Jess was most worried about losing their sense of purpose and even their sense of self.

• 27:28Speaker 05

  Part of the process for me was trying to wrap my head around the fact that it wasn't me. It was a person that was screaming no. Like, it wasn't this personal identity of something about me specifically that was going viral. And because for a long time, it was like, oh, like, oh, my god, this is so mean. Or these comments are so violent. It was like, I felt it all. And like friends and family and my therapist and people kept being like, you need to separate yourself from that image.

• 28:04Amory Sivertson?

  Jess wasn't sure how to do that. For a while, they were keeping a list of all the different scream memes they came across. They thought maybe they could turn it into some sort of work of art.

• 28:14Ben Brock Johnson?

  But even that felt insurmountable. Jess couldn't use it to their advantage. It was too much, which was obvious to the people around Jess.

• 28:23Amory Sivertson?

  We spoke to a few of Jess's friends, and they all said some variation of the same thing. Jess became more timid, more guarded, more selective in who they spoke to and what they were willing to share. Jess didn't reinvent themselves or stop making art or become a recluse off the grid. They went into a more emotional sort of hiding. And as a result, Jess's light just dimmed.

• 28:53Ben Brock Johnson?

  Something that was pretty remarkable, actually, in the age of infinite connection of the internet, the people looking for Jess couldn't find them.

• 29:03Speaker 06

  But the thing is, what do we know about her? She seems to have completely disappeared from the face of the planet since that one day where she rode into fame.

• 29:14Ben Brock Johnson?

  This is a YouTuber still posting about Jess's image in 2020, almost three years after their scream became a meme.

• 29:24Speaker 06

  Why didn't she monetize herself? I mean, seriously, she, there's posters of her, there's memes of her, there's all kinds of things. It's, in fact, her, her face has become the laughable face of the feudal resistance to Trump. So I'm curious, where, where did you go? What happened? I mean, doesn't, don't people?

• 29:46Amory Sivertson?

  Jess has felt some regret over shying away from public view after all this, but it has nothing to do with money.

• 29:53Speaker 05

  I did not feel like I had it in me. Like, literally, I didn't have the, the life force, the energy in me to like, go head to head with anyone that wanted to come at me about this. I felt really bad about that, actually, for a long time. It was like, really? Like, you basically were just given a platform. You could be like, hey, that was me, and here's what I mean, and I'm going to say this other thing, and I'm going to point to this thing, and I'm going to be like, rah rah, soapbox, right? 15 minutes, I got it, and I did nothing with it.

• 30:22Ben Brock Johnson?

  Jess isn't exactly looking for a second shot at that 15 minutes. As we said, this interview with us, it is the first one they've done since talking to ITV News four years ago in the middle of Donald Trump's inauguration. And they've been asked before. It's a big deal for Jess and a big step, one that Jess feels ready to take in part because of an epiphany they've had recently about memes.

• 30:48Speaker 05

  I think that memes are interesting in that they're, they're an opportunity for people to kind of project onto a shared surface, right? Like, a shared image, a shared concept, like, something about themselves. Something about themselves that, like,

• 31:05Speaker 05

  it says more about them than it says about me. And that was interesting to finally, like, register that.

• 31:16Speaker 05

  I think that speaks so strongly to the flaws in our culture. It's like, anyone that stands up for the underdog, anyone that stands up for themselves, anyone that like, wants to speak out on something immoral, it's like, oh, let's shame them so that we don't look bad. And I think there's something at the root of all that, that's just like, people missing access to their own power. It's like, if you don't have access to your own no, or your own power, and you try to take away other people's, and their no, or their yes, whatever it is, and their power, it's like, that's dark.

• 31:48Amory Sivertson?

  There's another side to this, though. Because a few months before we sat down with Jess, almost exactly four years after they became a meme, ridiculed for the way they accessed their no in protest of Donald Trump's inauguration, we saw a kind of mirror image, much more violent and distorted, come into view.

• 32:07Speaker 06

  And breaking news tonight, the deadly siege on Congress as an angry pro-Trump mob storms the US Capitol. We've seen shocking images-

• 32:15Ben Brock Johnson?

  Pro-Trump protesters, many of them armed, some of them displaying the imagery of white supremacy, stormed the US Capitol and looted the building, causing destruction of property, committing acts that are currently being prosecuted as assault and conspiracy. Testimony in court has revealed how rioters beat and maced police officers and shouted death threats at those officers. Things like, "Kill him with his own gun." Some are calling these acts of treason. Whatever you call it, it is a far cry from Jess's scream, which was, in some ways, a scream of resignation, not a violent resistance to a new regime. Jess's scream didn't hurt anyone.

• 32:59Ben Brock Johnson?

  But yet again, this intense political moment, where one group became the in-group and another group felt like it became the out-group and was not happy about that, resulted in memes.

• 33:12Speaker 06

  Tonight, new video has been released in the case against the so-called QAnon Shaman as he faces charges for his role in the Capitol insurrection. CNN's Brian Todd is covering it.

• 33:22Amory Sivertson?

  And again, some of those memes inspired uninvited, all-out searches to find the subjects of them. In some cases, the meme images were used to arrest people, prosecute them.

• 33:33Ben Brock Johnson?

  So there are parallels here, even if it's hard to compare an armed attack on the Capitol to Jess screaming "no."

• 33:41Amory Sivertson?

  What is worth thinking about is how you can become a meme while trying to find some agency in the midst of a real or perceived attack on your personal freedom.

• 33:51Ben Brock Johnson?

  And whoever you are, whatever you believe, when you become a meme, you become a little less human in the eyes of people seeing the meme, which only drives the wedge between differing political ideologies deeper.

• 34:10Speaker 07

  This conversation has made me think more about this story than I have done at any moment in the last five years. I mean, tell me about Jess. You know, how is Jess after all this? And what impact did it have on her? Because I've never had a chance to find out.

• 34:24Amory Sivertson?

  Across the pond, Martin Geisler, the journalist who captured the scream, hasn't followed the meme and its many iterations. But he also hasn't lost sight of the fact that it might not exist at all without him.

• 34:36Speaker 07

  It's a great ethical and moral dilemma for our industry, isn't it?

• 34:39Amory Sivertson?

  It is interesting to think about. What responsibility do the people who maybe don't make the memes but who make them possible have in their existence? Where Martin lands on this as a journalist is actually pretty simple.

• 34:52Speaker 07

  If you're asking me if I was in the same situation again tomorrow, would I do the same thing? Yeah, I would. I would hate it ever to be used as an opportunity to tell people to sanitize and to think carefully about situations like that and perhaps hold back from including footage like that because the wickeder elements online might change it, manipulate it, use it to their advantage. Because down the end of that road is the end of our industry. It's not a good place to go.

• 35:27Amory Sivertson?

  Martin was doing his job, offering a window into the inauguration, unfiltered, uncensored, un-sanitized. Jess had brought their camera there that day to do the same thing. They just never saw themselves being in the spotlight. And neither Martin nor Jess could have imagined the consequences. But to answer Martin's question about how Jess is doing today...

• 35:50Speaker 05

  Honestly, it feels like I got in a bad accident and like my bones have healed. It's like, okay, so I might always have a slight limp around this issue, but I don't want to not do things with my life because this happened. I'm really, I want to move on.

• 36:03Amory Sivertson?

  The internet is moving on. Don't believe us? Google me this: inauguration meme. What do you get?

• 36:11Ben Brock Johnson?

  You get a picture of Senator Bernie Sanders, face masked, legs crossed, hands crossed at the wrist, wearing a pair of comically oversized handmade adorable mittens. In Vermont, we dress warm. We know something about the cold. And we're not so concerned about good fashion. We want to keep warm. These are different times for Jess, too. Since this episode came out, they've moved across the country and finished a master's program.

• 36:41Amory Sivertson?

  And if you were wondering, this inauguration day, Jess will not be in DC.

• 37:03Amory Sivertson?

  Endless Thread is a production of WBUR in Boston. This episode was written and produced by me, Amory Sivertson, and co-hosted by me and...

• 37:12Ben Brock Johnson?

  Ben Brock Johnson. It was edited by Maureen McMurray. Mix, sound design, and original music in this episode are by Paul Vikes.

• 37:21Amory Sivertson?

  Endless Thread is a show about the blurred lines between online communities and...

• 37:27Ben Brock Johnson?

  A scream?

• 37:30Amory Sivertson?

  Yep.

• 37:30Ben Brock Johnson?

  If you've got an untold history and unsolved mystery or a wild story from the internet that you want us to tell, hit us up.

• 37:36Amory Sivertson?

  Scream at us at [email protected]. But in a nice way.

• 37:55Speaker 00

  Support for this podcast comes from Is Business Broken?, a podcast from the Marotra Institute at BU Questram School of Business. Follow Is Business Broken wherever you get your podcasts and listen on for a preview of a recent episode featuring Janet Kang, Executive Director of the Just Horizons Alliance, on who stands to benefit from AI in education.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  I am absolutely in favor of AI in learning in the right context. And just to explain why you're excited about it. Oh my gosh, individualized support, right, personalization, and to be able to scale quality education in places where it was historically impossible. So for certain kinds of learners with different kinds of learning styles and disabilities, for example, speakers of different languages, there are amazing ways AI can boost learning. It just has to be with the right context. And age appropriateness is something we do a lot of work in because it is very different depending on where in that maturity cycle you are in terms of how your brain develops.

• 38:56Speaker 00

  Find the full episode by searching for Is Business Broken? wherever you get your podcasts. And learn more about the Marotra Institute for Business Markets and Society at ibms.bu.edu.

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